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that is Trax. Hey

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gang, it's Friday, March 21st, Minda Emmy.

0:32

Asia and listeners, welcome to Behind the

0:34

Numbers. Any marked video podcast made possible

0:36

by tracks? I'm Marcus, and today I

0:39

am joined by three people for the

0:41

conversation we have for you. We have

0:43

with us our senior analyst covering social

0:45

media based in New York. It's Minda

0:48

Smiley. Hey Marcus, happy to be here.

0:50

Hello there. We also have with us,

0:52

with her in the studio. Analysts on

0:54

the media content team, also living in

0:56

New York, it's Emmy Leaderman. Hi, thanks

0:59

for having me. Of

1:01

course, of course. And

1:03

finally, we have joining

1:06

us, the co-founder of Kale,

1:08

living in New York

1:10

too. It's Isher Patel.

1:12

Market, it's great to

1:14

see you. Yes, you too. Thank

1:17

you all for being here.

1:19

We start, when we have

1:21

an external guest on, with

1:23

the speed intro. Ah, just

1:25

for Esha, let's do it.

1:28

60 seconds on the clock,

1:30

roughly. No one's keeping time,

1:32

but we kind of are. Let's do

1:34

it. Esha, you are based in New

1:36

York, but where are you from?

1:38

Originally from, Southern California. Very

1:41

nice. What do you do in

1:43

a sentence? I help people

1:45

translate their social value into

1:47

economic value. Very good.

1:50

What's your morning drink? Hmm. Purple

1:52

tea. No caffeine for me. But

1:54

it right before COVID. Most

1:56

people are Americano, which

1:58

is insane. have never had

2:01

one in my entire life. I

2:03

knew I'd like you. Well played.

2:05

You've never had a regular

2:07

coffee? I've had black trip

2:10

coffee. I've never had an

2:12

Americano or an espresso shot.

2:14

Oh my gosh. You can't

2:16

even imagine. And you're so

2:19

accomplished. Yeah. Right. A question.

2:21

What has a friend recently

2:23

influenced you to buy? This

2:25

is a good question. It

2:27

came from Emmy. Ooh. Looking

2:30

around my space, air-dry clay was

2:33

something that one of my friends

2:35

told me about. Are you guys

2:37

familiar with air-dry clay? No.

2:39

Absolutely not. Well, here, I made this

2:41

from clay, and it dries in 24 hours,

2:44

and you can paint it. So I

2:46

have little knick-knacks and mini fridge magnets.

2:48

One of my friends got into it.

2:50

explained it to me and then I

2:52

saw it all over TikTok. So it's

2:54

been a really fun way to send

2:56

my Sundays, making stuff with my hand

2:59

and not be on my devices. Very

3:01

cool. Victoria who edits the show, she's

3:03

going to love that. She got old

3:05

class. She's been on that kiln. But

3:08

this sounds way less expensive and time

3:10

consuming. Emmy, how about you? I guess this

3:12

is a... maybe a year ago now,

3:14

but a lot of my friends were

3:16

getting into newly, which I know Minde

3:18

is a fan of as well. Oh

3:21

yeah. It is a, I think, urban

3:23

outfitters, anthropology-owned rental brand where you... It's

3:25

kind of like rent the runway, but

3:27

another version of that where you get

3:29

like six pieces a month. And I

3:31

think that I talk about it so

3:33

often because I need other people to

3:35

justify the price for me as well.

3:37

And also get on it, it just

3:39

makes me feel better. I mean, newly

3:41

is one of the most popular brands on

3:43

Kale, so it's really really cool to see.

3:46

Very nice. I actually just I just sent

3:48

my months newly back and I'm getting a

3:50

new one tomorrow. It's so exciting to get

3:52

it in the mail. It's a full-time job

3:54

like using your items. Choosing your items going

3:57

to pick up your items. Yeah. Or me

3:59

dropping them off. Do you do newly yourself?

4:01

I don't, but I'm gonna I'm gonna

4:03

get on it for the spring months.

4:05

Love it. You left out. Minda, what

4:07

was a friend recently influenced you

4:10

to buy? Oh geez, that's a good

4:12

question. Honestly, I don't even know if

4:14

this is exactly what you're asking. Like,

4:17

I mean, my mom is my friend,

4:19

so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna

4:21

count my mom and she... She's top

4:24

of the food chain, you kidding me?

4:26

Yeah, it's true. Best friend. She often

4:28

influences me to buy like different items

4:30

at Trader Joe's. She'll be like different

4:33

food chain, you kidding me? Yeah,

4:35

it's true. Best friend. She often

4:37

influences me to the facts of...

4:39

the day. Who invented the piano?

4:41

So, this is the dumb stuff

4:44

that I kind of spend my

4:46

life wondering about. According

4:48

to the Metropolitan Museum in

4:50

New York, the first true

4:53

piano was invented almost entirely

4:55

by one man, Bartolomeo

4:58

Cristofori, the Italian harp

5:00

squad maker, was born

5:02

in 1655 in Padua,

5:04

in Republic. Venice, inventing the

5:06

first piano whilst living in Florence

5:08

in 1709. He named it the

5:10

Graber-Kembalo call Piano Eforte, or harpsch,

5:13

that plays soft and loud. The

5:15

name refers to the piano's ability

5:17

to change loudness according to the

5:19

amount of pressure on the keys,

5:21

a quality foreign to the harpschord.

5:24

A Christopheri, achieved that effect

5:26

by replacing the plucking mechanism

5:28

of the harpschord with a

5:30

hammer action capable of striking

5:32

the greater or lesser. force.

5:34

There were some flavors of

5:36

a piano before. You had

5:38

the hammered dulcimer, the harpsichords,

5:41

the clavichord, so there were a

5:43

few versions of the piano, but

5:45

he made the piano, invented

5:47

the piano. Anyone play?

5:49

No musical. Oh, very nice.

5:52

Except not in New York, because

5:54

I don't have space for a

5:56

keyboard in my apartment. Yes, no

5:58

one does. Although... talking about space for

6:01

pianos you should try to go I went

6:03

to on a tour of the Steinway piano

6:05

factory. Oh cool! Yeah it was remarkable. There

6:07

are two factories in the world. One's in

6:09

Astoria in New York and that services the

6:12

Americas and there's one in Hamburg

6:14

in Germany. That's amazing. Everywhere else. Yeah

6:16

and they talk they walk you through the

6:18

whole factory and they show you the process

6:20

from start to finish and it takes about

6:22

a year not for the tour. But for the,

6:25

to make a Steinway, it takes

6:27

about a year, it's just remarkable.

6:29

Do they have a gift store where you

6:31

can buy a piano? No, unbelievable. But

6:33

they do take you into the vault

6:35

of piano. Oh, cool. The special

6:37

pianos for people who can afford

6:40

this. Do they have a live Q&A

6:42

with this guy you're talking about?

6:44

The piano maker? The inventor

6:46

who was more

6:48

in 16... Yes!

6:50

Still around! Anyway,

6:52

today's real topic,

6:54

engaging communities through

6:57

short form video. All

6:59

right folks, today we're

7:01

going to be having

7:04

a slightly different conversation. about

7:06

communities and creators and how

7:08

the influence of space is

7:10

being reimagined, so to speak.

7:13

And as I mentioned, we're

7:15

joined by Isha, who co-founded

7:17

a company called Kale, who

7:20

is reimagining all of these

7:22

different things. So we'll start

7:24

with the what, and the

7:27

why? Isha, what is Kale,

7:29

and why did you start

7:31

it? Hale is a mobile app

7:33

that rewards everyday people like

7:35

Emmy, Minda, for talking about

7:37

their favorite brands on social

7:39

media. So you can imagine

7:41

Emmy with her newly taking a

7:44

couple videos, posting them on Instagram

7:46

Reals or Tiktok, and after 24

7:48

hours, Hale rewards her. And for

7:50

the brand, newly, they are getting

7:53

hundreds of pieces of content from

7:55

the Emmy's of the world who

7:57

just loves newly and shop there

7:59

authentically. to gift out $100

8:01

boxes every single month to

8:03

get content like traditional influencer

8:05

marketing. And so this model is different

8:08

because for folks who don't know Emmy,

8:10

she might be an influencer. I don't

8:12

know. We've only known it for a

8:14

short while. But what you're talking about

8:16

is just regular folks, you know, not

8:19

folks who have billions of followers or

8:21

millions of followers or hundreds of thousands

8:23

of followers. Or maybe even like tens

8:25

of thousands of followers. You're talking

8:27

about ordinary people, correct? What

8:29

people are craving today is what

8:31

we want to see on social

8:33

media. People are so sick and tired

8:36

of that shiny, big social media

8:38

celebrity with gifted product talking about

8:40

why this dress or this coffee mug

8:43

is the most amazing thing in the

8:45

world. So really going back to the

8:47

roots of Minda, your mom, Emmy,

8:49

your sister, my aunt recommending something

8:51

to us and us going out

8:53

and buying it, you're not going

8:55

to have to do... loads of

8:57

homework. So really the concept of

8:59

kale is nothing new. It's going

9:01

back to roots of word-of-mouth

9:04

marketing. Yeah. Emmy, when you're

9:06

looking at this concept of

9:09

giving the voice to the average

9:11

everyday customer, what do you make

9:13

of this and how this differs

9:15

from the more traditional, so-to-speak

9:17

form of influence of

9:20

marketing, of being influenced

9:22

by a creator? I

9:25

think it's interesting because it really

9:27

aligns with where a lot of

9:29

social platforms are going and the

9:31

ways in which consumers spend their

9:33

time on these social platforms. So

9:35

I think instead of just favoring

9:37

influencers who have high follower accounts

9:39

and are really strong in the

9:41

native feed and maybe have a

9:43

lot of likes and comments on

9:45

their posts, it's kind of moving

9:47

towards favoring people who have... stronger

9:49

engagement and are really able to

9:51

tap into kind of more niche

9:53

communities. So when I think of Instagram,

9:55

I barely ever post on it, but I

9:57

am so active in group chats with friends.

10:00

sending things back and forth. So

10:02

I think that kind of aligns

10:04

with what Kale's seeing in that

10:06

we want to go back to

10:08

the friends and family recommendations and

10:10

that part of social media and

10:12

preserve kind of those relationships versus

10:14

just following a flashy influencer who

10:17

may not be relatable. Yeah, and one

10:19

thing I do want to jump

10:21

in and say, because this is,

10:23

I think it's different, but kind

10:25

of in the same vein of

10:27

what we're talking about is, and

10:29

it is a little bit of

10:31

a shameless plug admittedly, but I

10:33

just wrote a report last week

10:35

about read it, and read it's

10:37

really becoming quite popular by several

10:39

measures, more ad-spend, more users, etc.

10:41

But really, what I'm getting at

10:44

is a lot of why people

10:46

like it's, you know, it's not...

10:48

really super algorithmically driven, it's not

10:50

AI driven, there's not, you know,

10:52

Reddit is not an influencer platform,

10:54

in any traditional sense. So I

10:56

think, you know, kind of going

10:58

back to Kelle, I think there

11:00

is like sort of this push

11:02

right now, I think for people,

11:04

you know, people just want like

11:06

real stuff. So do you see,

11:08

I think, Minda, you mentioned, Reddit,

11:10

kind of being like the bright

11:12

spot of the internet where people

11:14

still go to get actual recommendations

11:16

and have. brands getting involved there as

11:19

taking away from that? Or do you

11:21

think there's a way for them

11:23

to exist, the two things to exist

11:25

at once? I think it's tricky. I

11:27

mean, read it certainly still has its

11:29

own, you know, kind of, you know,

11:31

issues as well as not perfect, certainly,

11:33

I think one being that like, like,

11:36

a long good known is like a

11:38

very, like a platform that is very,

11:40

like, that's users are very adverse. So

11:42

that's a different thing. go badly or

11:44

users won't be super receptive. But there

11:46

is really, yeah, like there's certainly a

11:48

big community of people on there that

11:50

are talking about products, talking about brands,

11:53

and Redid certainly has noticed that, and

11:55

is trying to leverage that behavior. And

11:57

I think there's this idea of not taking yourself

11:59

to see. seriously and just wanting to connect

12:01

with people on read it, that it sounds

12:04

like Isha at Kale, that's kind of a

12:06

common thread where you're not trying to build

12:08

an audience or a following or a career

12:10

as much as you're just trying to kind

12:13

of talk about something you enjoy. Yeah,

12:15

we really don't go after serving big

12:17

influencers or social media libraries. We go

12:19

after the everyday person who has an

12:21

iPhone or a smartphone and is naturally

12:24

creating content through video about their day

12:26

in the city or what they're buying

12:28

at Twitter Joe's and those moments become

12:30

the source of inspiration for their community

12:33

to go check out those brands and

12:35

products and Minda to what you were

12:37

saying around just seeing real people what

12:40

we've been seeing a big shift from

12:42

is from quality of content to

12:44

quantity of content. So especially

12:46

on these fast moving platforms

12:49

like TikTok, getting a ton

12:51

of content to stay top

12:53

of mind has been the transformative

12:55

nature of leaning on your

12:57

super fans because there's no

12:59

way that you can go

13:01

gift out a million influencers product

13:04

and be top of mind.

13:06

Maybe you can do that

13:08

for a week, but what happens

13:10

the rest of the month. Do we

13:12

need to think of a

13:14

different word for this trend

13:17

to really take off? Because

13:19

we have the word creative,

13:21

we have the word influence, we

13:24

have the word celebrity and it

13:26

feels like we're talking about a

13:28

different type of person here. So

13:31

each of you, I mean... Can

13:33

we just use those terms and

13:35

redefine them to mean kind of

13:37

everyone from the person with you

13:40

know a couple of followers all

13:42

the way up to billions? Or

13:44

do we need to eventually think

13:46

the space the industry that will

13:49

come up with a new term? When we first

13:51

started Kail and I started setting up

13:53

creator user research shots, the users would

13:55

say, oh you should go talk to

13:58

someone else. I'm not a creator. I'm

14:00

a lower case C creator. So that's

14:02

what we've stuck with. I'm sure the

14:04

industry will evolve. And as we've evolved,

14:07

we've been targeting the app and our

14:09

platform to just everyday consumers.

14:11

Okay. Because you were telling me we

14:13

were chatting back and forth over email and

14:15

you were saying that the word creator, the

14:18

word influencer, a lot of the

14:20

time doesn't have a positive connotation.

14:22

And then not everyone wants to

14:24

be an influencer. I think the

14:26

time has shifted from the want to

14:29

be beauty influencer in 2010 to 2025.

14:31

People have realized it's a very lonely

14:33

job, you're alone, and the pay is

14:36

very unpredictable. You might get a really

14:38

big brand deal this month and then

14:40

be left dry for the next couple

14:43

of months. And I think there was

14:45

a time between 2015 and 2020 when

14:47

everyone wanted that. And what we've noticed

14:50

is just a slowdown of that over

14:52

the last couple years because it's just

14:54

so hard. to make that a reality

14:56

because the platforms are saturated. Yeah, I

14:59

think like they today actually wrote an

15:01

article recently it was like the interview

15:03

to creator who was like looking for

15:05

a nine to five job and I

15:07

was like wow everything comes full circle

15:09

and now they're like looking for just

15:11

like a regular jobs. So yeah, and

15:13

it feels like there's one side of

15:15

the industry where it's the creator economy

15:17

is moving towards entertainment and a lot

15:19

of people want to set up creator

15:21

up front so that you can have

15:23

regularly scheduled. content sponsored by brands and

15:25

really have this scheduled like more 9

15:28

to 5-esque role but it seems like

15:30

for the people that are just trying

15:32

to be influencers that type of

15:34

career isn't necessarily sustainable if you're

15:37

just focused on on building trust

15:39

and product pushing because if you're

15:41

constantly introducing a new brand to

15:44

your followers there's probably going to

15:46

be a point where they're like

15:48

you just you know, promoted this

15:51

competitor two days ago. How how

15:53

likely is it that you're actually

15:55

using this product as well? I

15:58

think the fatigue is real. I

16:00

mean, when you're talking about something

16:02

on your social feed, it's probably

16:04

happening once or twice a month

16:06

compared to the influencer. Because they

16:09

have to make ends meet, they're

16:11

posting about a couple different brands

16:13

every single day. So their impressions

16:16

are being diluted. So what we're

16:18

really looking at and what we

16:20

found brands to be shifting towards

16:22

is engagement rate. It's that saves,

16:24

the shares, the comments that are

16:26

really driving chatter and brand advocacy.

16:29

Yeah, I've seen some research that

16:31

said engagement rates are the top

16:33

qualifier for brands when looking for

16:36

influencers and then it's also audience

16:38

metrics and figuring out if the

16:40

audience that they're engaging with is

16:43

actually people that they want to

16:45

be their core consumer people that

16:47

they see converting. And I'm seeing

16:49

a lot of also updates like

16:52

with Instagram, for example, just rolled

16:54

out the sponsored comment. feature where

16:56

creators can instead of creators posting

16:58

a branded thing they can post

17:01

a sponsored comment this is a

17:03

little bit of an aside but

17:05

would love to hear your your

17:07

thoughts on that and if that's moving

17:10

moving us more towards like

17:12

kind of that authentic content or

17:14

maybe doing the opposite. I

17:16

think when it comes to these

17:18

different levers it's I think leaning into

17:20

that everyday person, I might not

17:22

want to post video content, but

17:24

I'm okay writing something and endorsing

17:26

something because I bought it five

17:28

times in the last month. So

17:30

I think the comments are an

17:33

interesting way to further democratize the

17:35

marketing budgets across people who are

17:37

actually using the product. So I'm

17:39

excited to see what happens with that

17:41

rollout for Instagram. You talked

17:43

about creators influences. I was trying

17:45

to see who is a creator,

17:47

how many people will consider themselves

17:49

creator, found some 2023 research, so

17:51

a little bit older than we

17:53

would have liked, from Mintel, showing

17:55

19% of social media users consider

17:57

themselves either a creator or an

17:59

influencer. That number goes up for

18:01

younger people, for Gen Z. That's

18:03

about 28%. And there's going to

18:06

have varying degrees of, obviously, creators

18:08

or influences within that. But that

18:10

means that, even if you're looking

18:12

at the younger people, three quarters

18:14

of people don't consider themselves one.

18:16

But that's the very audience which

18:19

we're talking about. They're the audience

18:21

to which people listen to every

18:23

day. And they're happy getting recommendations

18:25

from you don't need a huge following

18:27

for that to be true. I also, issue

18:30

you mentioned something in

18:32

a conversation we previously

18:34

had where you were saying that

18:37

this can be a creative outlet

18:39

and you're saying that it

18:41

enables staying connected

18:43

with different communities

18:46

and topics and so

18:48

it's not just reimagining

18:50

what we call this new person,

18:52

but what they're doing. and

18:54

how they're engaging with that content, with

18:57

that product, is changing as well. It

18:59

doesn't have to be, you're just talking

19:01

about this to promote it, it can

19:03

be, you're talking about this because you

19:06

care about it because you want to

19:08

stay connected to the community. Yeah,

19:10

so when we first started the

19:12

research to build out Kail, we

19:14

started talking to these recreational users

19:17

on TikTok and Instagram. This was

19:19

back in 2020. And we would call up

19:21

these folks and... Just say hey like you're

19:23

posting your day in the life of video

19:25

or you really love coffee or you love

19:27

yoga your entire page is full of it

19:29

But you don't do any sponsored deals or

19:31

any brand deals. Why are you posting and

19:34

the yogi would say hey I just

19:36

really love my community people ask me

19:38

questions on where I get my yoga

19:40

mat and you see that trickle down

19:42

into the comment section and so that's

19:44

when the spark really went off on

19:47

there's everyday people because the smartphone has

19:49

been democratized that are

19:51

creating content, whether we call

19:53

them creators or photographers. We

19:55

can debate that to no

19:57

end, but they are just

20:00

generating content for

20:02

the purpose of staying

20:04

connected, they feel proud and

20:06

a sense of purpose by

20:08

having this community that they're

20:10

seen as an expert for. Mm-hmm.

20:12

Emmy and or Minda, how have

20:15

you both seen social content,

20:17

the social content that

20:19

consumers are looking at

20:21

changing over recent years or

20:23

months? And how will it change,

20:25

potentially? Yeah, I don't, this

20:27

doesn't exactly answer your question, but it was

20:29

something I was just thinking, sorry, apologies. I

20:32

was just thinking like kind of going back

20:34

to this idea of like what is a

20:36

creator, what is an influencer as we've been

20:38

talking about, I think that. There is a

20:40

lot of gray area, right? I mean, because

20:42

our numbers show, you know, the creator economy,

20:44

you know, influenza marketing spend is growing, we're

20:46

seeing massive growth, you know, it is slowing

20:48

a bit because the creator economy, you know,

20:51

it's maturing, you know, it's maturing, you know,

20:53

it's maturing, and so we're seeing a bit

20:55

because the creator economy, you know, it's maturing,

20:57

and so, we're, you know, it's maturing, you

20:59

know, you know, it's maturing, you know, you

21:01

know, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's maturing,

21:04

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's maturing,

21:06

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's

21:08

maturing, it's, it's, it's, it's maturing, it's, it's,

21:10

it's, it's, it's, it followers who you know

21:12

takes on a brand deal here and there

21:15

through a platform like Kale you know they

21:17

might not consider themselves a creator but you

21:19

know maybe to a brand that's part of

21:21

their creator budget so there's all these kind

21:23

of like weird nuances I think happening constantly

21:26

within the creator economy whether we're debating

21:28

the difference between an influencer and a

21:30

creator or you know how brands kind

21:32

of budget this stuff out how people

21:35

themselves view themselves you know if they

21:37

do identify as a creator landscape which

21:39

I think is really really interesting and

21:41

even to your current question the one

21:44

you actually just asked Marcus about you

21:46

know social the social content itself

21:48

I mean that's always evolving and I think

21:50

now even creators are having to to address

21:52

that in terms of like as we're seeing

21:54

more happen with NDMs with in private messaging

21:57

creators are having to think about okay well

21:59

how do I get in those dams then

22:01

in a way that, you know, people will

22:03

want me to be in there. Minda, I

22:06

think you're hitting the nail on its head.

22:08

On one side of the marketplace,

22:10

you have these users who create

22:12

contact for fun. They are

22:14

not defining themselves as creators. On

22:16

the other hand, the space that

22:19

we plan for selling our solution

22:21

to brands, it comes from their

22:23

creator marketing dollars. And so, I

22:25

mean, back to your example, I mean,

22:28

the newly creator. or Emmy is a

22:30

newly creator for the brand, but

22:32

she doesn't consider herself because she

22:34

has a full-time job at E-marketer.

22:36

And so as we think about

22:38

the evolving landscape, it's been really,

22:40

really interesting to see a

22:42

brand come to us and say, hey,

22:45

instead of paying $20,000 for one TikTok

22:47

video, can we give it to you

22:49

guys? And you can start to reward

22:51

our super fans and put our marketing

22:53

dollars back into the pockets of our

22:55

customers. Going back to like just

22:57

the nature of the content and

23:00

in-feed posts, this could 100% be

23:02

just wishful thinking on my end,

23:04

but I think that there is

23:06

a lot more awareness now about

23:08

like the detrimental effects of social

23:10

media on mental health. So I

23:12

think that having seeing more of

23:15

social media be kind of interest

23:17

base and niche communities opposed to

23:19

let's all engage with this like

23:22

hot person that's posting on the

23:24

static social feed, I think has

23:26

become, in with the rise of

23:28

the platform's favoring video, I think

23:31

that supports that, this storytelling, and

23:33

kind of approach to communities and

23:35

interests versus we're all consuming the

23:38

same content. You know, example, I

23:40

just finished this season of the

23:42

traders, not sure if anyone else

23:45

watched it, but I just noticed

23:47

that there were so much content

23:49

in like private messages and just

23:51

on my feet. geared towards like

23:53

predictions about the traders, now it's

23:55

White Lotus. So it feels like

23:57

it's a great opportunity for CTV

23:59

as well. because there's such a nice

24:01

correlation between what we're watching on

24:03

CTV and what we're consuming on social

24:05

media. And I also think it's

24:07

like kind of a wholesome, positive

24:10

use of social media. Isha,

24:14

final question from me. When

24:17

you're thinking about the rest of this year, the future, what

24:20

are some of the most important,

24:22

I should say, theme for you

24:24

when you kind of, you

24:27

put kale to one side, you go out

24:29

for a walk, you know, you're company in

24:31

the space here, but you're going out for a

24:33

walk and you're having these ideas about the

24:35

wider space that you live in. What do you

24:37

think is most worth paying

24:39

attention to? I think it's

24:41

really interesting to start

24:43

thinking about virality being redefined.

24:46

Arguably, the iMessage space

24:48

is the most influential

24:50

space. The Instagram DMs

24:53

is a very influential

24:55

space. So what we're thinking a

24:57

lot about at kale is, how does

24:59

the message get out there

25:01

about different brands and products?

25:03

Obviously we are seeing it very loud

25:05

and clear with the video space, with

25:07

the photo space, Emmy brought up the Instagram

25:09

comment space. The

25:12

truth of the matter is brands don't

25:14

do well in terms of selling

25:16

because there are 101 brands popping into

25:18

your feed. Influencers are

25:20

considered brands so that leaves the

25:22

everyday person, whether that's their address

25:24

book, which I think is a

25:26

really powerful symbol of their influence

25:28

and what communities they can get

25:30

into or Reddit communities that

25:32

they manage. It's gonna be interesting to

25:35

see where people are talking about

25:37

topics and interests, like Emmy was saying,

25:40

that are near and dear to them. Yeah,

25:44

I kind of think about this

25:46

similarly to musicians. You have

25:48

some shows like Voice or X

25:50

Factor where there's a chance that

25:52

someone's gonna get noticed and they

25:55

go from being nobody to the

25:57

person of the moment. But a

25:59

lot the time that's of... of a

26:01

flash in the pan and a lot of time you don't hear

26:03

from them again. Most musicians, it's

26:06

sustainable. It's slow, it's steady, it's

26:08

constant, and then they become, they

26:10

become somebody. But that's kind of

26:12

how I look at this space

26:14

is, you know, you're talking about

26:16

virality being redefined. We were talking before and

26:18

you were saying you spend a ton of

26:21

money, a ton of effort on this thing

26:23

and it gets, it gets wiped past and

26:25

it's gone. constantly reminding people

26:27

about your brand. And a lot

26:30

of the time it takes a

26:32

few reminders before someone pulls trigger

26:34

on the purchase anyway. So that

26:36

just being a more sustainable brand

26:39

conversation. Yeah, in addition to brands

26:41

measuring success on social via engagement

26:43

rate, what we've seen is people

26:45

are desperate to stay top of

26:48

mind and it's quantity over quality.

26:50

You can art direct and workshop

26:53

an influencer or video to perfection

26:55

and there's going to be so

26:57

many people that land on it for

26:59

half a second and move on. And

27:01

so a lot of beauty brands, their

27:04

measure of success is when a user

27:06

is on beauty talk, I want to

27:08

be the first three videos that people

27:10

swipe through versus one that

27:12

randomly gets a million views.

27:14

The social media space has been

27:17

innovative upon and evolving, but something

27:19

that we've been noticing is how easy

27:21

it is to buy impressions. Brands

27:23

are starting to notice and questioning,

27:25

what does it even mean to

27:27

get a million impressions on a

27:29

video if the quality of those

27:31

impressions are not coming from an

27:33

audience that is your target demographic?

27:35

So engagement rate, the saves, the

27:37

shares, those are the more meaningful

27:39

actions that users are hitting on

27:42

a piece of content that are

27:44

indicating purchase and consideration to brands.

27:46

Perfect. Well, unfortunately, that's why we have

27:48

to leave a conversation, but thank you

27:50

so much to my three guests for

27:52

hanging out with me today. Thank you

27:54

first to Isha. Thank you, Marcus. Of course,

27:57

yeah. Thank you to Emmy. Thank you. Thank

27:59

you to Minda. Thanks to the A

28:01

team, our editing crew. They made

28:03

me call them that. Victoria, John

28:05

Lance, and Danny, Stewart runs the

28:07

team. Sophie does our social media.

28:09

Thanks to everyone for listening in

28:11

to the Behind the Number Show

28:13

and E-Mart video podcast made possible

28:16

by tracks. We'll be back on

28:18

Monday, happiest of weekends.