0:01

Hello listeners, today is Wednesday,

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April 2nd. Welcome to Reimagining

0:06

Retail, an e-marketer podcast. This

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is the show where we

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talk about how retail collides

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with every part of our

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lives. I'm your host, Sarah

0:17

Lebo. Today's episode topic is

0:20

growing a brand while keeping

0:22

a loyal following. Let's meet

0:24

today's guests for this episode. Joining

0:26

me for today's episode, we have

0:28

podcast regular VP on our retail

0:30

desk, Susie David Canyon. Hey Susie.

0:32

Hello, thanks for having me. Thanks

0:34

for being here. Also with us,

0:36

we have a special guest today.

0:38

It's Kristen Darcy, CMO at True

0:40

Religion. Hi, Kristen, thank you for

0:42

being here. Of course, thanks so

0:44

much for having me. Happy to

0:46

have you. Okay, so let's jump

0:48

in. True Religion, the denim, the

0:51

denim company, has been around since

0:53

2002. I got that from your

0:55

website. which I hate to say

0:57

this, it was more than 20

0:59

years ago. So it's not a

1:01

young brand. How has True Religion

1:03

managed to build and keep a

1:05

loyal following during that time? It's

1:08

a great question. And you know,

1:10

the way that we teed this

1:12

up was that we're a denim

1:14

brand. We're actually an urban casual

1:16

lifestyle apparel brand. And I think

1:18

that is how we can build

1:21

and keep a loyal following with

1:23

regard to product. And then I'll

1:25

talk about the marketing in a

1:27

second. So when you look at

1:30

our product and let's take jeans,

1:32

for example, there are certain fits

1:34

for men and women that our

1:37

customers have come to know and

1:39

love. So the BECA or the

1:41

Ricky, for example. people keep coming

1:44

back from a return or repeat

1:46

purchase perspective because they know this

1:49

fit. They love this fit. And

1:51

then what's different is that we

1:53

can infuse trends into the

1:55

product spec. So for example,

1:58

Camo is really in. know,

2:00

maybe we'll put embellishment on these

2:02

fits that you know. So from

2:05

a loyal perspective, again, there's a

2:07

suite of product offerings that, you

2:09

know, you love, you come back

2:12

for. But then from a product

2:14

perspective, we have a really great

2:16

chase program. The chase program means

2:19

that we are looking at trends

2:21

that are happening right now in

2:23

the market. or responding to those

2:26

trends. So baggy, for example, big

2:28

trend in men's. We test that

2:30

in our own D to see

2:33

channels, see if customers are biting

2:35

both new and returning customers. And

2:37

then if they are, we roll

2:40

out that chase program even more

2:42

fully to all of our stores

2:44

over 50 across the US and

2:47

to trueligent.com. So from a product

2:49

perspective, it's always that balancing between

2:51

what you know and then something

2:54

new that you can come and

2:56

discover from us. I think from

2:58

a marketing perspective, we launched our

3:01

loyalty program in 2023. We revamped

3:03

it in 2024, just October actually

3:05

of last year, and we revamped

3:08

it. for a number of different

3:10

reasons. One, we wanted to make

3:12

sure that as a brand, we

3:14

know that we sit at the

3:16

intersection between music, sports, and culture.

3:19

So why not give the most

3:21

loyal customers exclusive access to all

3:23

three of those things like only

3:25

weekend? So that might mean if

3:27

you're signed up for the loyalty

3:29

program, you get early access, let's

3:32

say a 20, 24 hours early.

3:34

to shop an exclusive drop. Let's

3:36

say that as a loyalty member,

3:38

you can enter a sweep to

3:40

sit front row at Coachella, where

3:42

the brand will be popping up

3:45

with a series of strategic marketing

3:47

activations actually next month. So there's

3:49

a number of different ways that

3:51

we pulse in experiences into the

3:53

loyalty program, in addition to new

3:55

branding, it's called true rewards, and

3:58

we're already. almost a million people

4:00

have signed up for that program.

4:02

And again, it was really, it's

4:04

only been around for about a

4:06

year and a half now in

4:08

total. Kristen, do you get to

4:11

go to Coachella next month? I

4:13

do. I think I'm going to

4:15

go for a day or two,

4:17

and it's funny because someone on

4:19

my team said, we need to

4:21

plan, you know, our looks for

4:24

Coachella, and I'm thinking, oh my

4:26

gosh, I've never been to Coachella,

4:28

I can transmit. That's the true

4:30

religion way. I was going to

4:32

say, I didn't realize that you're

4:34

a 20-year-old brand. I feel like

4:37

true religion has such a strong

4:39

branding. I mean, originally in the

4:41

gene space, that I would have

4:43

thought you were a much, much

4:45

older brand. What I find really

4:47

interesting from a merchant old life

4:49

perspective is that you actually have

4:52

a name for chasing trends for

4:54

how do you get around it

4:56

to make sure that you are.

4:58

ahead, if not on trend, but

5:00

testing it before you release it

5:02

wide. Does that work with your

5:05

distribution partners as well? From a

5:07

wholesale perspective, you know, they're buying,

5:09

I mean, we're showing our wholesale

5:11

partners holiday 2025 right now. So

5:13

it's a little bit more of

5:15

mainline. We typically do the most

5:18

chase volume with our D2C business

5:20

units. I think what's interesting is

5:22

when you look at D2C, we're

5:24

really, really proud that our digital

5:26

business in total is going to

5:28

make up almost 50% of the

5:31

total. We have almost 10 million

5:33

people in our databases and that

5:35

is continuing to grow as we

5:37

both. continue to drive loyalty, of

5:39

course, but then bring millions of

5:41

new consumers into the brand. And

5:44

it's funny, you know, you talked

5:46

about us being just like a

5:48

23 year old brand, and I

5:50

think what's fascinating from my perspective

5:52

is a lot of people say,

5:54

how does all of the marketing

5:57

feel so authentic and it's because

5:59

23 years ago the black-eyed peas

6:01

wrapped about the brand believe it

6:03

or not you had Venus and

6:05

Serena Williams wearing us and we

6:07

looked at this timeline between 2002

6:10

and today and there was persistent

6:12

hits throughout music sports culture more

6:14

broadly of people talking about us

6:16

wearing us and I think what's

6:18

so interesting is that momentum just

6:20

has continued to build particularly as

6:23

we've improved product both and men's

6:25

and women's over the last couple

6:27

of years. We've grown the women's

6:29

business, so huge improvement over the

6:31

last few years. And then the

6:33

last is all of that organic

6:36

love now shows up in somebody

6:38

like Timothy Shalomé wearing us organically.

6:40

Oh, I saw that. Yeah, this

6:42

is interesting to talk about because

6:44

like 2002, the William sisters and

6:46

the black-eyed peas, that's like the.

6:49

most successful you can be as

6:51

a brand. And this is also

6:53

like Tale as old as time,

6:55

especially in urban categories. I know

6:57

that Tommy Hillfigure's story was that

6:59

they sent merchandise specifically to different

7:02

wrappers and Snoop Dogg ended up

7:04

wearing the product on S&L and

7:06

that's sort of how it ended

7:08

up blowing up. So that's especially

7:10

makes sense in your category in

7:12

the urban lifestyle category. That brings

7:15

me to a recent campaign I

7:17

saw on your Instagram the other

7:19

day. I saw Sexy Red, which

7:21

is a rapper I know for

7:23

her song that blew up on

7:25

TikTok Ski was in your campaign.

7:28

Now my guess is most of

7:30

our listeners have no idea what

7:32

I just said. Like that all

7:34

sounds like Gen Z. Gibberish. So

7:36

my question based on that is...

7:38

How do you expand to younger

7:40

customers by having people like sexy

7:43

red wearing the brand without alienating

7:45

consumers who are like, who the

7:47

heck is that? Yeah, it's such

7:49

a good question. Sex is amazing.

7:51

And maybe I'll start with the

7:53

why. So, you know, our customer

7:56

loves sexy red. We know that

7:58

because we're constantly reading all of

8:00

the comments in social and while

8:02

people have been really excited about

8:04

some of the other faces over

8:06

the last couple of years that

8:09

we've partnered with, we do get

8:11

a persistent thread that says, what

8:13

about sexy? Where's sexy? And so

8:15

we were really excited. I spoke

8:17

with her personally when we reached

8:19

out and the first thing she

8:22

said to me is, why did

8:24

you wait so long to call

8:26

me? I'm like, I was like,

8:28

because we wanted to make sure

8:30

that we had the right campaign,

8:32

the perfect campaign for you. And,

8:35

you know, rumor has it. She

8:37

has spent thousands of dollars. So

8:39

not just through gifting, she has

8:41

spent thousands of dollars on the

8:43

product. And when we launched Own

8:45

Your True, that's our new brand

8:48

platform in February, we thought coming

8:50

out of the gate with Anita,

8:52

the global Brazilian pop superstar, will

8:54

be amazing. And that actually expands.

8:56

us to attract new customers through

8:58

somebody like an and then how

9:01

do we deliver what we know

9:03

our core customer really wants, which

9:05

like I said through the social

9:07

comments alone, was a sexy red.

9:09

I want to talk really quickly

9:11

about some of the initial success

9:14

out of the gate with sexy

9:16

red, and then I want to

9:18

back up and answer your question

9:20

a little bit more broadly about

9:22

bringing in younger customers. So sexy

9:24

red, like I said, launched on

9:27

Tuesday. We did not spend any

9:29

more on that advertising creative and

9:31

paid media. We basically rotated her.

9:33

into some of the other messages

9:35

we had in market. Said that

9:37

because people were so. excited to

9:40

see her intro religion officially now,

9:42

a long time coming. We saw

9:44

an increase in website traffic the

9:46

day of launch by 70%, which

9:48

is phenomenal. We saw sell through

9:50

of some of the looks increase

9:53

immediately right out of the gate,

9:55

so the product that she's actually

9:57

wearing. We saw a spike, of

9:59

course, in sales online that day.

10:01

We are up double digits this

10:03

year, which is phenomenal, given it's

10:06

a really, and that's by way

10:08

of sales. given it's a really

10:10

tough retail market out there. So

10:12

these partnerships with the right faces

10:14

at the right time definitely correlate

10:16

to not only interest, but traffic

10:19

and sales for us. And I

10:21

think that's the key, right? It's

10:23

the key is as a brand,

10:25

staying authentic to your roots, which

10:27

for you guys was the music

10:29

and entertainment and sports and culture

10:31

and making sure that in that

10:34

authenticity, you're using your core product

10:36

so that you don't alienate your

10:38

core people and your usual consumers,

10:40

but you bring in new ones

10:42

to sort of raise awareness. They

10:44

do a little bit of research.

10:47

We know everybody's doing research on

10:49

TikTok, and then all of a

10:51

sudden, you've increased the number of

10:53

people that are in your fold.

10:55

Especially with a consumer that's already

10:57

in the product. I mean, that's

11:00

the most authentic thing you can

11:02

do is find someone who's already

11:04

a fan of the product. to

11:06

feel so organic. You know, we

11:08

had another recent organic hit actually,

11:10

Playboy Cardi released a new album,

11:13

it's already trending, and this happened

11:15

only, I think, a week ago.

11:17

He also released a music video

11:19

as part of that album, and

11:21

he is wearing head-to-toe true religion,

11:23

literally had. as part of a

11:26

campaign or just organically on his

11:28

own. Totally organically. Cool. You know

11:30

what I also think is really

11:32

helpful? It's that you have the

11:34

same silhouettes in genes with a

11:36

twist. right? So like you go

11:39

we go from skinny to bootleg

11:41

but at the end of the

11:43

day it's still all the same

11:45

sort of core product with glitter

11:47

without glitter cameo and so your

11:49

core perhaps 20 years older than

11:52

when you first started is still

11:54

buying that because jeans although there

11:56

are so many more brands in

11:58

private label is something that people

12:00

feel a really strong emotional connection

12:02

to and once you found that

12:05

it style then that's all you're

12:07

buying basically. So it's really hard

12:09

to get attention by a different

12:11

brand so that you guys are

12:13

in the moment capturing new customers

12:15

that are younger is amazing. But

12:18

I'm curious about how that doesn't

12:20

alienate older consumers, how that doesn't

12:22

alienate someone who, it was a

12:24

fan of the brand 20 years

12:26

ago and has no clue who

12:28

sexy red is. Well, as that

12:31

potential customer, let me tell you,

12:33

I didn't even know there was

12:35

that campaign, right? True religion the

12:37

brand is not hitting me. with

12:39

that campaign where I am, right?

12:41

So they're only hitting people in

12:44

that aged area that know that

12:46

rapper or pop star, whoever, in

12:48

a place where they're already there.

12:50

So you're meeting your potential new

12:52

customer where they are, and you're

12:54

leaving people like me who are

12:57

buying your brand potentially for the

12:59

Bloomingdale's of the world to tell

13:01

me more about your new stuff.

13:03

You know what I think that's

13:05

probably how you're not alienating or

13:07

core customer. That from a distribution

13:10

standpoint for sure, although we're seeing

13:12

both kind of returning and new

13:14

customers shopping our digital channel being

13:16

trulogen.com or they're shopping through the

13:18

app. And I think it's because

13:20

the other part of the marketing

13:22

strategy, you know, that we haven't

13:25

talked about yet, it's called Team

13:27

True. So Team True is an

13:29

always on influenza program of now

13:31

almost 100 people. And those people

13:33

are really diverse. They're men and

13:35

women. They're range from college athletes.

13:38

So we partner with a lot

13:40

of NIL partners, frankly, you know,

13:42

to people that are in their

13:44

20s and 30s who are musicians,

13:46

fashion stylists. of the first ever

13:48

NFL fashion stylist who's on Team

13:51

True. Christie, what's your sweet spot

13:53

there in terms of follower count?

13:55

Are you looking at bigger creators

13:57

or smaller ones a mix? It's

13:59

a great question. For Team True,

14:01

it's everybody from, I think on

14:04

the low end, 20,000 followers all

14:06

the way up to, believe it

14:08

or not, 5 million. Okay. So

14:10

athletes, W-N-B-A-N-B-A-N-B-A-N-F-L, but again you're able

14:12

to attract both younger and older

14:14

consumers through this teen true program

14:17

that's always on because of the

14:19

diversity of people that we have

14:21

in that program. Yeah, that makes

14:23

sense. I was going to ask

14:25

how you as a brand are

14:27

able to participate in trends online

14:30

without seeming out of touch. But

14:32

it seems like that's the way,

14:34

as instead of the brand participating

14:36

in TikTok trends, you have your

14:38

creators participating in them on your

14:40

behalf. We do that. I think

14:43

we also, we look at trends

14:45

that fit our DNA, so music

14:47

fashion and culture. And here's an

14:49

example of something that we, you

14:51

know, we created or co-created, I

14:53

should say, in partnership with Dudette

14:56

with a sign for the Megan

14:58

the Stallion campaign. We had Dudette

15:00

with a sign, walk around. of

15:02

course, with a brand message. And

15:04

here's an example of us sort

15:06

of riffing on a trend. The

15:09

sign that said brat summer, demure

15:11

fall, and it had crossed out

15:13

both of those, and we know

15:15

both of those were trending, and

15:17

then it said hot girl holiday.

15:19

And for those that know, Hot

15:22

Girls are what Megan, the Stallion,

15:24

sort of calls herself and her

15:26

followers. So that's one way of

15:28

us kind of riffing on the

15:30

trend that we're seeing. The other

15:32

way that we're trying to be

15:35

authentic, particularly on TikTok, and we

15:37

do have someone whose sole full-time

15:39

job it is to grow the

15:41

followers in that channel and also

15:43

create Tik-specific content. So there you'll

15:45

see our content is music-driven. it's

15:48

fashion and motion. We're trying to

15:50

create cultural connections, so tapping into

15:52

nostalgia and cultural moments that resonate

15:54

with our audience, tapping into community

15:56

and creators, as is the case

15:58

with Team True. And there's really

16:01

no hard sell in that channel

16:03

unless it's a very specific paid

16:05

media ad. We're focusing on engagement

16:07

and storytelling rather than being. overtly

16:09

promotional there. And you know, the

16:11

big takeaway is focusing on that

16:13

heritage and brand collaborations and campaigns.

16:16

We've seen almost triple-digit follower growth

16:18

over the last year, let alone

16:20

the last six months, the engagement

16:22

rate across all of our social

16:24

content in organic is above industry

16:26

average. And what that says to

16:29

me is the team is doing

16:31

an incredible job of being really

16:33

the authentic, frankly, and the way

16:35

that we're engaging there. I'm all

16:37

in on that, on the, you

16:39

have to be authentic to who

16:42

you are as a brand, otherwise

16:44

you're not going to win and

16:46

you're not going to get new

16:48

customers or keep your customers if

16:50

you, you know, if you're selling

16:52

them something that you're actually not.

16:55

What I am interested in as

16:57

well, so that's on the marketing

16:59

side, but that authenticity also starts,

17:01

you know, maybe even starts with

17:03

the product and making sure that

17:05

your product is on brand. trends,

17:08

not the like stick-talk trends, but

17:10

like how do you make sure

17:12

that you can continue to grow

17:14

outside of the denim category and

17:16

that your core and new customers

17:18

are ready to grow with you

17:21

in that space? So Michael Buckley,

17:23

who is our CEO, brought in

17:25

a head, a new head of

17:27

women's design. now about two and

17:29

a half years ago. She has

17:31

grown the women's business, you know,

17:34

double digits in a very short

17:36

amount of time. So now she

17:38

oversees both women and men's product

17:40

design. And I think she does

17:42

a great job, whether it's denim

17:44

or active wear. or varsity jackets

17:47

or baby teas or short shorts,

17:49

no matter what the kind of

17:51

product category. What is core to

17:53

us, our design elements that we

17:55

know our customers want. So we

17:57

know they love the thick stitching,

18:00

they love, you guys can see

18:02

it, but they love the logos

18:04

across the board. So that is

18:06

always front and center. The product

18:08

design is really, really bold. We

18:10

know that, you know, on the

18:13

women's side, she likes faux fur.

18:15

She likes glitter and rhinestone embellishments.

18:17

We know for the guy. He

18:19

likes... patches, for example, he loves

18:21

our graphic teas. So I think,

18:23

you know, number one, we start

18:26

with this incredible product assortment that

18:28

is both what you know, like

18:30

those fits from a denim perspective

18:32

we talked about earlier, and then

18:34

you come to us and you

18:36

discover this wide world of so

18:39

many other product categories that we

18:41

have. We put sexy red in

18:43

this incredible pink leopard active set.

18:45

So that is out in the

18:47

world in paid media, for example.

18:49

So the awareness. that we play

18:51

in all of these other categories

18:54

is there. And then from a

18:56

marketing perspective, obviously there's a ton

18:58

of science happening under the covers

19:00

every day where if we know

19:02

that you bought a pair of

19:04

jeans, we're gonna retarget you, let's

19:07

say an email and SMS and

19:09

suggest a T that works with

19:11

those genes. Or just a, you

19:13

know, a hoodie, for example, that

19:15

might work well with what you've

19:17

already purchased. So cross-selling and up-selling

19:20

is happening on a personalized level.

19:22

at scale too. Yeah, I think

19:24

that's really important. And that's also

19:26

why it's so important that your

19:28

loyalty program has been a success

19:30

is so that you have that

19:33

information to retarget those consumers. Something

19:35

that you said to me, Kristen,

19:37

when we were prepping for this

19:39

that I wrote down is you

19:41

can performance market a brand to

19:43

death. And I think that really

19:46

speaks to what you were just

19:48

talking about. which is that you're

19:50

retargeting existing consumers, of course, to

19:52

expand their basket size or to

19:54

get them to come back. But

19:56

from a top down brand perspective,

19:59

it seems like you're not super

20:01

focused on performance marketing. We are,

20:03

I think that is one of

20:05

the levers that we're able to

20:07

use to drive the incredible sales

20:09

performance. Yeah. But it's not sacrificing

20:12

brand. We are investing in. you

20:14

know, faces and partners like Anita

20:16

Y.G. sexy, we're investing in upper

20:18

funnel marketing for each of, you

20:20

know, those elements of this campaign.

20:22

So we're running, you know, streaming

20:25

video, we're running streaming audio, we're

20:27

running a lot of upper funnel

20:29

campaigns in addition to the performance

20:31

marketing. And what we've seen is

20:33

a direct positive result on the

20:35

business. You actually see the efficiencies

20:38

in paid search, which is... obviously,

20:40

you know, a very solid performing

20:42

sales channel for many retailers, but

20:44

you see the efficiency in that,

20:46

you see the efficiency in direct

20:48

URL type in, you see the

20:51

efficiency in organic search, all of

20:53

those. pop as traffic sources and

20:55

sales sources when we have the

20:57

investment in upper funnels. So here

20:59

I am not worried about us

21:01

performance marketing the brand to death

21:04

because we are properly activating the

21:06

campaigns at every layer of the

21:08

consumer's journey, the upper funnel, the

21:10

mid-consideration, and then the lower funnel,

21:12

and then the lower funnel, and

21:14

they all work together well. That

21:17

makes sense. And I shouldn't have

21:19

said you weren't focused on performance

21:21

marketing, but that you were invested

21:23

just as much in the brand.

21:25

I was just going to add

21:27

that. if you don't have all

21:30

the different tiers, they all work

21:32

together, right? And we know that

21:34

consumers are not shopping linearly anymore,

21:36

and they're getting input about a

21:38

new brand that they didn't know

21:40

or about a product that the

21:42

brand they love all over the

21:45

place. And so if you don't

21:47

evenly split your time in whatever

21:49

that looks like for your brand,

21:51

because every brand is a little

21:53

bit different, or every product category,

21:55

I should say, is a little

21:58

bit different, then you're gonna lose.

22:00

And so it's not just about

22:02

that last piece, but it's also

22:04

catching them as they're learning about

22:06

something they didn't even know they

22:08

wanted, which is usually the brand

22:11

campaigns. Yeah, we're almost out of

22:13

time. I'm gonna put you both

22:15

on the spot with a question

22:17

before we close out. Which is

22:19

Kristen and Susie, both of you

22:21

have mentioned tons of different KPIs

22:24

on Tikk. Do you guys think

22:26

that there is an underrated KPI

22:28

that retail marketers should be looking

22:30

at? It's so important to realize

22:32

that every retailer and brand is

22:34

measured on comp sales and margin,

22:37

but I think what is under-measured

22:39

is the halo effect of a

22:41

campaign. And so, like, you might

22:43

be showing jeans because we are

22:45

to religion, but I mean, like,

22:47

I actually didn't realize that you,

22:50

and I would say I'm an

22:52

active buyer, I didn't realize that

22:54

you have active wear. And so

22:56

I think the idea around activations

22:58

and pop-ups and other sort of

23:00

experimental sort of experiences that are

23:03

happening. don't get enough credit because

23:05

that helps you learn about the

23:07

brand in a bigger way and

23:09

other products that, you know, I

23:11

might not be in the market

23:13

today for active wear, but now

23:16

I saw the person wearing it

23:18

on Instagram or wherever she was.

23:20

I don't even know her name

23:22

red. Sexy red. Sexy red. And

23:24

you know now, next time I

23:26

need a pair of yoga pants,

23:29

I might go to True, like

23:31

without Eve. And you can't measure

23:33

that, but I think it's a

23:35

really important component component. You know.

23:37

one of the most underrated metrics

23:39

is actually engagement and of course

23:42

sentiment, but engagement in social. And

23:44

I say that because, you know,

23:46

we have not quite a million

23:48

followers, which is wild to me,

23:50

we're working on that, but not

23:52

quite a million. followers on Instagram

23:55

and you know I think you

23:57

could be fooled by thinking that

23:59

if you had 10 million as

24:01

a brand that metric is incredible

24:03

and you know that that's a

24:05

great number by way of organic

24:08

reach but the metric underneath the

24:10

follower count is engagement yeah so

24:12

the first question you asked out

24:14

of the gate how do you

24:16

build and keep a loyal following

24:18

It's by engaging with them in

24:21

channels where they're spending their time

24:23

and they want to build a

24:25

relationship with the brand there as

24:27

well. So whether that's TikTok or

24:29

Instagram or some of the others,

24:31

I'm really, really proud that when

24:33

you look at Instagram, our engagement

24:36

rate is six to eight percent.

24:38

Industry averages one to three. Yeah.

24:40

It says is that people are

24:42

coming to the page. and they're

24:44

not cast of followers. It means

24:46

that they're signing up to be

24:49

a follower, and then they're coming

24:51

back, and then they're commenting, they're

24:53

saying, where is sexy red? They're

24:55

saying when we launched her, oh

24:57

my gosh, finally, you know, this

24:59

is your moment sexy, we're so

25:02

excited. So I think that element

25:04

really leads to brand love. So

25:06

mine would be engagement and social.

25:08

I love that answer and I

25:10

think that's also really important for

25:12

picking creators you're working with is

25:15

not just looking at who has

25:17

the following but who has the

25:19

following with engaged followers especially because

25:21

they can be less expensive people

25:23

to work with if someone has

25:25

20,000 followers but they're mostly engaged

25:28

followers they're probably a cheaper buy

25:30

than someone with 15 million followers

25:32

and you might get the same

25:34

sort of engagement. love seeing brands

25:36

looking more at shares because I

25:38

think that getting in the group

25:41

chat is vital, especially if you're

25:43

a brand with such a strong

25:45

identity as true religion. You're exactly

25:47

right. Totally with you. Okay, well

25:49

end on Kristen telling me I'm

25:51

exactly right because I think that's

25:54

a perfect end point.

25:56

Thank you so you

25:58

so much for

26:00

joining us, Kristin.

26:02

This was excellent. Thanks

26:05

for having me. me. Thank you, Susie.

26:07

Thanks Thanks so much for having

26:09

me. Thank Thank you to our listeners

26:11

and to our team that edits

26:13

the podcast. Good is in their in their

26:15

genes. We'll be back next Wednesday

26:17

with another episode of of Retail, an

26:19

e -marketer podcast. And on

26:21

Friday, join on for another

26:23

episode of for the Numbers episode of

26:26

the Behind the Numbers show.