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Yep, all here on History Dispatches.

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to an airwave media

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0:35

is a production of

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Colonial Williamsburg innovation studios.

0:40

Hello and welcome to

0:43

Ben Franklin's World revisited.

0:45

A series of classic

0:47

episodes to bring fresh

0:49

perspective to our latest episodes

0:52

and at deeper connections to

0:54

our understanding of early American

0:57

history. And I'm your host,

0:59

Liz Kovart. What does freedom

1:01

mean when the deck is stacked against

1:03

you? To commemorate Black History Month,

1:06

we're revisiting a story that's

1:08

too often overlooked, but critical

1:10

to our understanding of early

1:12

America. While we often think of

1:15

early American society in terms

1:17

of stark contrasts, enslaved or free,

1:19

wealthy or poor, the reality was far

1:21

more complex. In this episode, we'll

1:23

revisit episode 328 from 2022. to

1:26

uncover the lives of free people

1:28

of color in early America. These were

1:30

black people who were free from enslavement,

1:32

but who stood in the shadow of

1:34

slavery, where they carved out lies of

1:36

resilience and purpose. Now, since we spoke

1:38

in 2022, Warren Miltier Jr. is now

1:41

an associate professor of history at

1:43

George Washington University. Using details

1:45

from his books, North Carolina's free

1:47

people of color and beyond slavery's

1:49

shadow. Warren leads us on a

1:51

journey from the colonial era through

1:54

the American Revolution. and into the

1:56

pre-civil war period. Now during

1:58

our journey, Warren reveals... where free

2:00

people of color lived and thrived.

2:02

The surprising opportunities free people of

2:05

color ceased during the American Revolution,

2:07

and illegal battles they faced just

2:09

to exist in early American society.

2:11

This is a story of courage,

2:14

determination, and what it truly means

2:16

to fight for a place in

2:18

the world. I hope you enjoy

2:20

as we revisit our conversation with

2:23

Warren and re-explor the complexities and

2:25

contradictions of freedom in early America.

2:38

Our guest is an assistant professor

2:40

of history at the University of

2:42

North Carolina at Greensboro. His research

2:45

expertise is in the early American

2:47

South, Free People of Color, Race,

2:49

Slavery, and Native America. He's the

2:51

author of numerous articles and two

2:54

books. North Carolina is Free People

2:56

of Color, 1715 to 1885, and

2:58

Beyond Slavery Shadow, Free People of

3:00

Color, in the South. Welcome to

3:03

Ben Franklin's World, Warren Meltier Jr.

3:05

Thank you for having me. So

3:07

Warren, I wonder if we could

3:09

begin with a little myth-busting. It

3:12

seems that many Americans assume that

3:14

before the Civil War in that

3:16

antebellum period, free people of color

3:18

lived in northern free states while

3:21

all enslaved people in the United

3:23

States lived in southern slave states.

3:25

Could you help us better understand

3:27

the reality of where free people

3:30

of color actually lived in early

3:32

America and what freedom meant in

3:34

different parts of the young United

3:36

States? Yes, so... Free people of

3:39

color were located in both the

3:41

North and the South from the

3:43

colonial period all the way through

3:45

the Civil War. We don't really

3:48

know exactly how many free people

3:50

of color were in the colonies

3:52

during that period, but by the

3:54

time we get to Civil War

3:57

error, the majority of free... people

3:59

of color are living in the

4:01

South and not in the North,

4:03

which like you said, I don't

4:06

think a lot of people are

4:08

aware of, and they're spread across

4:10

the region. As far as the

4:12

South goes, there are large populations

4:15

of free people of color in

4:17

places like Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina,

4:19

but then you also have significant

4:21

populations of free people of color

4:24

in Pennsylvania, New York. Later Ohio

4:26

as well. Now before we really

4:28

dig into the lives and experiences

4:30

of free people of color, most

4:33

of whom lived in the South,

4:35

I wonder if we could talk

4:37

about the term free people of

4:39

color because this is a term

4:42

you use in both of your

4:44

books. North Carolina is free people

4:46

of color and beyond slavery shadow.

4:48

And I wonder if you could

4:51

define that term for us and

4:53

tell us who early Americans thought

4:55

of as a free person of

4:57

color. Well, I think... One thing

5:00

I try to emphasize in both

5:02

books is the diversity of free

5:04

people of color. I think that

5:06

many people don't know what free

5:09

people of color means, but also

5:11

there are people who have seen

5:13

the term or somewhat familiar with

5:15

the term but don't recognize how

5:18

different many of the people were

5:20

who fell under this category of

5:22

free people of color. And part

5:24

of that is ancestral diversity. I

5:27

mean, there is a wide... range

5:29

of ancestries people who end up

5:31

being categorized as free people of

5:34

color. I discuss the fact that

5:36

this term could include both people

5:38

of African descent as well as

5:40

people of Native American descent. And

5:43

so you have some people who

5:45

may be one or the other.

5:47

Many people have both ancestries and

5:49

then on top of that there

5:52

are a few free people of

5:54

color who also seems to have

5:56

had some connection to Asia specifically

5:58

South Asia and areas that we

6:01

would probably think. of his India

6:03

today. And so I think that

6:05

diversity, recognizing that diversity is very

6:07

important because it tells us a

6:10

lot about the story of people

6:12

of African descent and how it's

6:14

more complicated than just the story

6:16

of enslavement, but also it says

6:19

something about Native American history and

6:21

the fact that the lives of

6:23

Native American people in the South

6:25

and also in the United States

6:28

more broadly. went in a variety

6:30

of different directions. All people who

6:32

were of Native American ancestry ultimately

6:34

were not categorized as Indians, which

6:37

is something that a lot of

6:39

people don't think about. And then

6:41

also going on with that diversity

6:43

is again, the importance of economic

6:46

diversity amongst free people of color

6:48

and how that determined their lives.

6:50

But that's something that I really

6:52

want people to take away from

6:55

my work is to recognize that

6:57

free people of color had diverse

6:59

lives, different lives that often were

7:01

controlled by how wealthy they were

7:04

or how poor they were and

7:06

it impacted their lives in that

7:08

time and potentially impacts the lives

7:10

of their descendants and the present.

7:13

You've told us that free people

7:15

of color really encompasses a broad

7:17

range of people with different ancestries

7:19

and I wonder why you think

7:22

it is that we've mostly come

7:24

to understand free people of color

7:26

as meaning free black people. instead

7:28

of this great diversity that you

7:31

just told us about? Probably some

7:33

of that just comes from assumptions

7:35

that we make based on how

7:37

terms such as colored were used

7:40

in the 20th century. I think

7:42

that most people strongly associate the

7:44

term colored in the 20th century

7:46

would be whole of African descent.

7:49

And so we haven't gone back

7:51

and looked at the way that

7:53

the term colored was used or

7:55

people of color was used. in

7:58

that earlier time period, but it's

8:00

quite obvious. from the sources that

8:02

this term had a much broader

8:04

meaning than the way that we

8:07

assume it. And to some extent

8:09

it makes sense because we see

8:11

how the term people of color

8:13

is used in the 21st century.

8:16

And in many cases, it is

8:18

a term that encompasses people variety

8:20

of different backgrounds, which is clearly

8:22

connected to how it was used

8:25

originally in the earlier period. Okay,

8:27

so you mentioned at the outset

8:29

that by the Civil War, most

8:31

free people of color actually live

8:34

in the South and not in

8:36

Northern cities. Because, you know, when

8:38

we think of free people of

8:40

color, I think many of us

8:43

immediately picture places like New York

8:45

City and Philadelphia where free people

8:47

of color really form significant communities.

8:49

So what was it like for

8:52

the majority of free people of

8:54

color to live in and form

8:56

communities across the Southern part of

8:58

the United States? It really depends

9:01

on where you're looking. You have

9:03

populations that are more centralized in

9:05

some of the cities of the

9:07

South, such as Charleston, New Orleans,

9:10

and most importantly, Baltimore, which had

9:12

the largest population of free people

9:14

of color, as far as the

9:16

city goes in the South. But

9:19

many free people of color were

9:21

living in rural areas of the

9:23

region as well, and there's some

9:25

surprising places that pop up on

9:28

the list of... say the top

9:30

10, top 20, top 50 localities

9:32

for free people of color in

9:34

the South. Many rural counties in

9:37

Maryland had significant populations of free

9:39

people of color. Delaware, which for

9:41

the most part is a rural

9:43

state outside of Wilmington, Virginia as

9:46

well, you will see those types

9:48

of patterns. So you have free

9:50

people of color are scattered across

9:52

the country, scattered across the country,

9:55

scattered across the South. They are

9:57

doing different types of work depending

9:59

on where they're living and involved

10:01

in different types of relationships with

10:04

their neighbors. based on those contexts

10:06

as well. I'd love for us

10:08

to get into the specifics of

10:10

lived experiences in the South and

10:13

I wonder if we could begin

10:15

with the story of King Tony.

10:17

Now in Beyond Slavery Shadow one

10:19

of your two books Warren you

10:22

shared the story of King Tony

10:24

who is a free person of

10:26

color who happened to live in

10:28

Virginia during the 17th century. Would

10:31

you tell us about King Tony

10:33

and about his life as a

10:35

free person of color living in

10:37

colonial Virginia? Yeah, so King Tony,

10:40

as you said, was living in

10:42

Virginia in the late 17th century,

10:44

specifically in Northampton County, Virginia, which

10:46

is on Virginia's Eastern Shore, and

10:49

that particular area has received significant

10:51

attention from historians, for one, because

10:53

the records are relatively good, and

10:55

two, because you do have this

10:58

early population of free people of

11:00

color. in that community. And so

11:02

King Tony is one of several

11:04

free people of color in Northampton

11:07

County. He's a landowner. He wrote

11:09

a will, so that's how we

11:11

know about him and his family

11:13

connections. He left property to his

11:16

family to fund his death. So

11:18

that's basically what we know is

11:20

we know this larger context that

11:22

he's living in with other free

11:25

people of color and also that

11:27

he was a property-owning person at

11:29

a time when we wouldn't necessarily

11:31

imagine to find people of color

11:34

owning land and being able to

11:36

pass it down to their families

11:38

for generations to come. Is there

11:40

any evidence that you were able

11:43

to find on whether King Tony's

11:45

ability to pass down land to

11:47

his family helps secure the free

11:49

status of his family going forward

11:52

into the 18th and early 19

11:54

centuries? I would say it's possible

11:56

I haven't looked... very closely into

11:58

King Tony's descendants and what happened.

12:01

to them specifically, I know that

12:03

the families that King Tony was

12:05

connected to did remain in that

12:07

area for a while, or least

12:10

some of them. Some historians argue

12:12

that it was really in the

12:14

17th century, the late 17th century,

12:16

when conceptions of race-based slavery and

12:19

ideas about how race is what

12:21

could determine your status in North

12:23

American society really developed. And I

12:25

wonder, what was King Tony's life

12:28

like during the 17th century period

12:30

where... we do start to see

12:32

a separation and distinction between white

12:34

people and people of color. I

12:37

think King Tony was living at

12:39

a time where, like I think

12:41

your question somewhat suggests, that the

12:43

laws that are separating free people

12:46

of color from white people have

12:48

not been fully developed. Now there's

12:50

definitely a conception of slavery and

12:52

there are many people of African

12:55

descent already enslaved in the community

12:57

where King Tony lived. The majority

12:59

of them would have been enslaved.

13:01

But at the same time there

13:04

is some flexibility, some respect to

13:06

the fact that King Tony is

13:08

a free person and that being

13:10

a free person means something distinct

13:13

from being an enslaved person as

13:15

I think he would have been

13:17

able to benefit from that distinction.

13:19

And on top of that, I

13:22

mean, King Tony is a man.

13:24

And so there are certain rules

13:26

that would have applied to women,

13:28

especially poor women, that didn't apply

13:31

to King Tony. And so they

13:33

put him in a position where

13:35

he's not necessarily at the top

13:37

of the social hierarchy, but he's

13:40

not at the bottom either. He's

13:42

not where many people might suspect

13:44

he would be. Now moving forward

13:46

from the late 17th century, and

13:49

talk about the American Revolution. The

13:51

revolution was this period that actually

13:53

created a lot of opportunities for

13:55

enslaved people to gain their freedom.

13:58

You know, they achieved their freedom

14:00

by self-emancipating or running away to

14:02

British lines. they could achieve their

14:04

freedom by serving in the British

14:07

or revolutionary armies, or they might

14:09

have gained their freedom in areas

14:11

of the United States that abolished

14:13

and started to gradually emancipate enslaved

14:16

people beginning as early as the

14:18

1780s. What we don't often hear

14:20

about, though, are the opportunities that

14:22

would have existed for free people

14:25

of color during the revolution. For

14:27

free people of color, Yeah, so

14:29

free people of color are connected

14:31

to both sides of the conflict

14:34

around a revolution. You have some

14:36

free people of color in the

14:38

South who wind up serving in

14:40

local militias on the side of

14:43

the United States. There are few

14:45

free people of color who seem

14:47

to have gone off with the

14:49

British, especially those who are in

14:52

the servant class and don't necessarily

14:54

see opportunity. and the revolution, if

14:56

their masters will be free and

14:58

will have more opportunities, but that

15:01

doesn't necessarily guarantee anything for them.

15:03

And as I think you could

15:05

see that free people of color

15:07

split, I even find evidence of

15:10

some free people of color who

15:12

are drafted into the militias of

15:14

the United States and run away.

15:16

So there are a lot of

15:19

different opinions about what revolution means

15:21

amongst free people of color from

15:23

the little bit that we know

15:25

as far as what they say

15:28

and what evidence they leave. about

15:30

the revolution in their thoughts. So

15:32

it sounds like a lot of

15:34

the choices that would have been

15:37

available to free people of color

15:39

were really the choices that any

15:41

free American was trying to make

15:43

during this time of the revolution.

15:46

Like, do they believe in the

15:48

ideology of the revolutionary or the

15:50

loyalists? Or maybe what they even

15:52

want from the post-revolution period. Yeah,

15:55

and I mean, largely we don't

15:57

know what they thought. There are

15:59

a couple of examples where people

16:01

will sign... loyalty owes to the

16:04

United States and things of that

16:06

nature but for the average person

16:08

we really don't know what the

16:10

average person of color thought about

16:13

the revolution. Many free people of

16:15

color are not well to do.

16:17

They're not literate. So they're not

16:19

leaving this document to tell us

16:22

what they think. And because they

16:24

are people of lower station as

16:26

far as the social hierarchy is

16:28

concerned, that puts them in a

16:31

different position than say the characters

16:33

that we often think about when

16:35

we think of the American Revolution.

16:37

That's a really interesting point that

16:40

we can't often know what free

16:42

people of color thought about the

16:44

revolution or presumably other events in

16:46

history because they were often illiterate

16:49

or they just didn't have documents

16:51

to lead behind or some archive

16:53

didn't wish to preserve them because

16:55

you know these weren't seen as

16:58

people of importance. So how do

17:00

you as a historian Warren someone

17:02

who researches free people of color

17:04

get at the stories of King

17:07

Tony and other early Americans who

17:09

are also free people of color?

17:11

Yeah, so in the case of

17:13

King Tony and many other people

17:16

who have probably have a similar

17:18

class background with I'm looking at

17:20

wills and deeds and things of

17:22

that nature seeing what types of

17:25

business interactions these people have in

17:27

the colonial period and trying to

17:29

get something out of that court

17:31

records are really important in trying

17:34

to understand what they think or

17:36

at least where they fit in

17:38

the larger society and Sometimes you

17:40

can get an inkling about a

17:43

free person of color's opinion based

17:45

on maybe a court case where

17:47

they actually have some testimony there

17:49

or for instance I'm just thinking

17:52

about a more famous case of

17:54

Anthony Johnson from Northampton County who

17:56

would have lived around the same

17:58

time that King Tony was alive

18:01

and he was a free person

18:03

of color who at least enslaved

18:05

one person. And so we learned

18:07

that from the court records. and

18:10

we can kind of extrapolate his

18:12

thoughts about. the process of enslaving

18:14

other people from that court case

18:16

that he at least was willing

18:19

to do that to one person

18:21

and didn't necessarily see it as

18:23

problematic. So in essence we can

18:25

build something there or maybe in

18:28

the case of a poor free

18:30

person of color they show up

18:32

in the records being charged with

18:34

a variety of different crimes often

18:37

having to do with their poverty

18:39

such as women free women of

18:41

color will show up in the

18:43

records being charged with having children

18:46

out of wedlock. and the children

18:48

are being born out of wedlock

18:50

because of the fact that they're

18:52

not allowed to marry because they're

18:55

servants. And so we can see

18:57

in the court record sometimes these

18:59

struggles over maintaining control over themselves,

19:01

controlling their children. So that's how

19:04

I work with those records and

19:06

try to build a story about

19:08

their lives and their faults to

19:10

the best of my ability. But

19:13

I don't want to go too

19:15

far by taking that evidence that

19:17

I have and say I know

19:19

everything about what they're thinking. So

19:22

as we continue to move further

19:24

in time here from the revolutionary

19:26

period to the early Republic, I

19:28

wonder if the number of records

19:31

that we have for free people

19:33

of color increased and maybe even

19:35

reveal more information about their lives

19:37

now that we're moving into the

19:40

early Republic period or the early

19:42

United States. So is this the

19:44

case? Do we see more records

19:46

and more information for free people

19:49

of color who lived? after the

19:51

colonial period in the early United

19:53

States? I would say yes, overall,

19:55

the closer we get to the

19:58

civil war, the quality of the

20:00

records in Chenville gets better, more

20:02

likely to find, say, a letter

20:04

written by a free person of

20:07

color in 1850, and also it

20:09

depends on the location. that you're

20:11

looking at. So say the records

20:13

from Louisiana often include more references

20:16

to testimony than records from South

20:18

Carolina. Not always, but often that

20:20

is the case. The court cases,

20:22

even in the context of say

20:25

French or Spanish Louisiana, are more

20:27

detailed, often include more references to

20:29

testimony. So we get the actual

20:31

voices of free people of color,

20:34

but also white people of color,

20:36

but also white people of as

20:38

slave people, Native Americans, versus say

20:40

in a place like South Carolina

20:43

where the records are overall actually

20:45

not very good. Colonial North Carolina,

20:47

especially the early time period of

20:49

colonial North Carolina, say the 1600s,

20:52

you're not going to find much

20:54

of the voices of free people

20:56

of color in the records. So

20:58

yeah, time helps. Now one of

21:01

the things that the War for

21:03

Independence did was that it created

21:05

an independent United States. It created

21:08

a new nation. Warren, as Americans

21:10

shifted away from British laws and

21:12

customs and embraced a more American

21:14

way of governing, what did this

21:17

shift mean for the lives and

21:19

experiences of the United States' free

21:21

people of color? I think it

21:23

varies for different free people of

21:26

color. In a certain sense, we

21:28

see benefits that come about because

21:30

the American Revolution and just the

21:32

ideas that are floating around in

21:35

that time about liberty, it gives

21:37

free people of color something to

21:39

attach to that they can use

21:41

to defend themselves, say in the

21:44

court case or in public debates

21:46

about their position, they can go

21:48

back and reference. Hey, this is

21:50

what we've said was going to

21:53

happen during the American Revolution and

21:55

we now need to live as

21:57

we claim we were going to

21:59

live. So in that sense, it's

22:02

beneficial. But then at the same

22:04

time, I think the revolution is

22:06

very disruptive especially when we're thinking

22:08

about the evolution of American politics

22:11

that comes about because of the

22:13

revolution. So you have people trying

22:15

to figure out how do we

22:17

build new political coalitions in the

22:20

southern states and all around the

22:22

country. And sadly, I think it's

22:24

quite clear that bigotry often targeted

22:26

specifically at free people of color

22:29

is an important part of early

22:31

American politics and becomes increasingly important

22:33

as we get towards the Civil

22:35

War period. And I don't know

22:38

if we would see quite the

22:40

level of development in that politics

22:42

had the majority of the southern

22:44

colonies remain part of Great Britain

22:47

and under the rule of Great

22:49

Britain. I think politics and coalition

22:51

forming in the New United States

22:53

was really clearly about trying to

22:56

figure out. how the new nation

22:58

was going to govern itself and

23:00

how individual states were going to

23:02

govern themselves. Did you find any

23:05

evidence where free people of color

23:07

in the South in particular had

23:09

any say in politics? You know,

23:11

because they were free people of

23:14

color and presumably taxpayers too, so

23:16

in this day and age they

23:18

would have had a say, but

23:20

we know that's not always true

23:23

of the past. Yeah, absolutely. It

23:25

depends on which state you're looking

23:27

at. but in different times, free

23:29

men of color, specifically could vote.

23:32

So in places like North Carolina,

23:34

Maryland for a time, free people

23:36

of color, free men of color,

23:38

could vote and were active in

23:41

politics as far as being voters,

23:43

participating in all the functions that

23:45

go along with voting in a

23:47

community. They're serving in militias, which

23:50

people see is very much connected

23:52

to politics. as well. Some of

23:54

them actually had rank in the

23:56

militias as far as the Nachists.

23:59

privates in the militia. So they

24:01

would have had power over white

24:03

people as well as other people

24:05

of color. So yeah, definitely free

24:08

people of color, have a voice,

24:10

some of them, especially individuals more

24:12

familiar private to your audience, such

24:14

as Benjamin Bannaker was quite outspoken

24:17

about politics, especially the connection between

24:19

politics and race in the late

24:21

1700s. So yeah. When we talk

24:23

about slavery, free people of color,

24:26

and relations between white people and

24:28

people of color, between the periods

24:30

of the revolution and civil war,

24:32

we often separate these conversations into

24:35

two groups, you know, northern experiences

24:37

and southern experiences. But what you

24:39

just described that free people of

24:41

color, particularly men, free men of

24:44

color, could vote in southern states

24:46

like Maryland and North Carolina, that

24:48

may sound to many of us

24:50

like more of a northern experience

24:53

than a southern experience. And we

24:55

should note here that not all

24:57

northern states did allow free people

24:59

of color to vote. So Warren,

25:02

could you tell us more about

25:04

the regional variations and variations between

25:06

the states as to the laws

25:08

and treatment of free people of

25:11

color? Basically what we see, especially

25:13

we're thinking about the South, is

25:15

that different forms of discrimination pop

25:17

up over time, whether it's disenfranchising.

25:20

free men of color and taking

25:22

away their right to vote or

25:24

laws requiring the registration of free

25:26

people of color. They show up

25:29

in most southern states at some

25:31

point, but the process in which

25:33

they show up is very gradual.

25:35

So if I had to pick

25:38

a state that seems to be

25:40

a leader in discrimination, I would

25:42

have to point to Virginia. Virginia

25:44

seems to be the place as

25:47

far as we're thinking about. laws

25:49

being created, discriminated against free people

25:51

of color. Virginia seems to be

25:53

the place that is creating... some

25:56

of the earliest legislation around discrimination.

25:58

And then you will see other

26:00

states follow. One example that I

26:02

can think of is around the

26:05

issue of the movement of free

26:07

people of color from state to

26:09

state. So Virginia is one of

26:11

their earliest states to create rules

26:14

preventing or they're supposed to prevent

26:16

free people of color from other

26:18

states coming into Virginia's boundaries. So

26:20

when Virginia passes this law, then

26:23

other states start following its neighboring

26:25

states, use the Virginia example as

26:27

a reason to therefore prohibit free

26:29

people of color from coming into

26:32

their states. Now, the degree to

26:34

which these laws are enforced, it

26:36

varies locally. So even within one

26:38

state, you can see a lot

26:41

of variation. Some discriminatory laws, say

26:43

in Virginia. may be enforced in

26:45

one part of the state and

26:47

not enforced in another. But yeah,

26:50

there's this variation based on different

26:52

states, but also time. So maybe

26:54

going back to the issue of

26:56

disenfranchisement, free people of color have

26:59

been disenfranchised in Virginia since the

27:01

colonial period, whereas in North Carolina,

27:03

which is next door, free men

27:05

of color, lose the right to

27:08

vote in 1835. So the idea

27:10

of disenfranchisement in North Carolina wasn't

27:12

new in 1835 and people had

27:14

actually tried to do it before,

27:17

but politically they weren't successful until

27:19

1835. To go back to your

27:21

point about the local enforcement of

27:23

laws, it really seems like you

27:26

could have had a situation and

27:28

perhaps you found a situation like

27:30

this in your research, it seems

27:32

like you could have a situation

27:35

where free people of color... were

27:37

highly valued and respected members of

27:39

their community. And so when a

27:41

state, like Virginia or North Carolina,

27:44

passes some sort of discriminatory law,

27:46

I think I can see examples,

27:48

you know, or imagine examples, I

27:50

should say, where an individual community

27:53

might be really hard-pressed to actually

27:55

enforce that discriminatory law on someone

27:57

that they saw was their friend

27:59

and neighbor. Do you think this

28:02

really happened? Did you find cases

28:04

where this might have happened where

28:06

local communities might have actually ignored

28:08

state laws because, you know, on

28:11

a personal level, they didn't actually

28:13

want to discriminate against their neighbors

28:15

who happened to be a free

28:17

person of color? Yes, definitely. I

28:20

think that's playing a role in

28:22

this situation. And I think you

28:24

could even have a class element

28:26

to that question or that way

28:29

of thinking about the situation, free

28:31

people of color, because I would

28:33

say it's less likely for a

28:35

well to do free person of

28:38

color to face criminal punishment from

28:40

a locality than say a poor

28:42

free person of color. And some

28:44

laws are actually designed so that

28:47

that would be the outcome. So

28:49

there are penalties that can be

28:51

assessed against free people of color

28:53

for a variety of different crimes.

28:56

And often what happens, especially as

28:58

we get closer to the civil

29:00

war period, is that certain fines

29:02

will be attached to a crime

29:05

with the intent of trying to

29:07

make a poor free person of

29:09

color. be hired out. That's what

29:11

they would call it. So basically

29:14

you would temporarily lose your freedom.

29:16

You would be hired out at

29:18

auction for a certain amount of

29:20

years to pay off your debt.

29:23

And so what the courts would

29:25

do is they would assess really

29:27

high fines that the people couldn't

29:29

pay. And then they would end

29:32

up being hired out. Whereas if

29:34

you're a wealth to do free

29:36

person of color and I likely

29:38

do that to you anyways, but

29:41

even if they did, you have

29:43

the money to pay it off.

29:45

$50 dollars. Oh, I can pay

29:47

that. for poor person in that

29:50

time period of $50 is a

29:52

lot of money. So we see

29:54

that kind of stuff. But then

29:56

there's also another element of this

29:59

local variable. and the ways that

30:01

discriminatory laws are used

30:03

by local officials. And

30:06

that has to do with the

30:08

larger economy and the

30:10

desire to maybe get around

30:12

the law by local officials.

30:14

And I think that happens,

30:17

especially when we're thinking

30:19

about immigration and the

30:22

movement of people. I

30:24

think there's some entities that

30:26

want to ignore. the rules

30:28

because they find it financially

30:31

beneficial to allow free people

30:33

of color who may be coming in

30:35

from another state to come and do

30:38

work because they can pay them

30:40

less. That's how they're looking at

30:42

it. Just like what we see with

30:44

our immigration rules today and how

30:46

they work. And some people are

30:48

willing to look the other way and not

30:51

pay attention because it's financially

30:53

beneficial to somebody

30:55

else. As were on the theme of

30:58

local and regional variations in the treatment

31:00

of people of color, there were some

31:02

states that came into the Union

31:04

and particularly into the southern part

31:06

of the United States that

31:08

didn't originate in the British-American

31:10

structure of government. So you

31:12

mentioned New Orleans and Louisiana

31:15

a bit earlier and that's such a

31:17

great example because Louisiana had

31:19

Spanish and French origins and therefore

31:21

had different laws with regards

31:23

to manumission, race, and slavery. What

31:25

kinds of variations did states

31:28

like Louisiana, Florida, Alabama,

31:30

or Mississippi have when it came

31:32

to the treatment and laws for people

31:34

of color, given that these states

31:37

all came out of French

31:39

and Spanish colonial traditions of

31:41

thinking about race and servitude? So

31:43

I think, like you said, the

31:45

manumission rules in the Spanish Empire

31:47

in particular, which would have

31:49

affected Florida and Louisiana, and

31:51

parts of some of those other states

31:53

as well. variation in

31:56

those rules, created an

31:58

opportunity for larger populations

32:00

of free people of color just

32:03

spring up in those areas compared

32:05

to, say, areas of the deep

32:07

south that would have been part

32:10

of the British Empire immediately before

32:12

the revolution. The manumission rules are

32:14

where you see the major difference,

32:16

but once those areas become incorporated

32:19

into the United States, the laws

32:21

tend to hardened pretty quickly. as

32:23

far as attempts to control the

32:26

lives of free people of color.

32:28

There's a little bit of flexibility

32:30

in Louisiana to some extent because

32:33

there's a large population of free

32:35

people of color in New Orleans.

32:37

Some of them are pretty well

32:39

to do it. So I think

32:42

because of that they're able to

32:44

shield themselves to some extent. But

32:46

where there's smaller populations of free

32:49

people of color, I think it

32:51

becomes more difficult to protect themselves.

32:53

and to create an open environment

32:55

for free people of color. And

32:58

I'll think about Florida, what I'm

33:00

thinking about that. Florida was part

33:02

of the Spanish Empire, so it

33:05

was Louisiana. But by the time

33:07

you're getting into the mid-1800s, Florida's

33:09

not that great of a place

33:11

for free people of color, especially

33:14

Florida, if you're thinking about the

33:16

larger state of Florida. There are

33:18

little pockets of free people of

33:21

color sprinkled in places like Pensacola.

33:23

St. Augustine, but outside of that

33:25

the populations of free people are

33:27

very small or non-existent and they

33:30

don't have much to work with

33:32

when it comes to protecting themselves.

33:34

And actually there is a important

33:37

migration of people who leave Florida

33:39

and go off to places like

33:41

Mexico and the Caribbean at different

33:43

times. to be a free person

33:46

of color living in the South

33:48

in the early United States. It

33:50

sounds like from our conversation we

33:53

would have had different laws that

33:55

we would have had to contend

33:57

with and follow that some of

33:59

these laws would have restricted our

34:02

movements and dictated our public behavior.

34:04

So if we're a free person

34:06

of color living and working on,

34:09

say, a farm, because you said

34:11

most free people of color lived

34:13

in rural areas of the South,

34:16

if we're living and working on

34:18

the Southern farm, what would our

34:20

lives have been like? Again, you

34:22

know, I emphasize this throughout my

34:25

book. I think that when we're

34:27

trying to describe the experiences of

34:29

free people of color, we have

34:32

to look at the larger context

34:34

for each of these individuals because

34:36

it says a lot about how

34:38

they would experience life, whether it's

34:41

in the urban area or in

34:43

a more rural area. So again,

34:45

if you're a well to do

34:48

free man of color in a

34:50

rural part of the South. and

34:52

you own your own your own

34:54

land, have your own business, you

34:57

can do pretty well. I mean,

34:59

some of the most successful free

35:01

people of color in the South

35:04

live in what I would describe

35:06

as probably some of the states

35:08

that free person of color would

35:10

be least likely to want to

35:13

live in like Mississippi, like certain

35:15

parts of Louisiana and South Carolina.

35:17

That's where the well to do

35:20

free people of color are because

35:22

they are engaged in using slave

35:24

labor like many of their neighbors

35:26

to make a living and they're

35:29

able to do very well in

35:31

many cases because they are more

35:33

focused on making money than they

35:36

are on worrying about forms of

35:38

discrimination that they surround them. And

35:40

sometimes they can even get around

35:42

that because they have money and

35:45

people listen to them. They have

35:47

power that's connected to that. poor,

35:49

free woman of color in that

35:52

same community, your potential. suffering all

35:54

the time. You don't have the

35:56

same political connections. You don't have

35:59

the same financial resources as those

36:01

individuals. And so you don't have

36:03

the same power in that community

36:05

over your own life and also

36:08

the lives of other people. I

36:10

mean there's some free men of

36:12

color who are well to do

36:15

who rent land to white people

36:17

and they use that as a

36:19

way to create power for themselves

36:21

in their communities. and a poor

36:24

free woman of color would not

36:26

be able to do that. And

36:28

she also may face other problems

36:31

related to the laws that again

36:33

control the bodies and the children

36:35

of poor women, the apprenticeship laws

36:37

that develop in the colonial period

36:40

are still in existence in many

36:42

parts of the South well into

36:44

the 19th century. And that... affects

36:47

the rights of poor free women

36:49

of color, but also creates potential

36:51

long-term damage for their families because

36:53

this poverty ends up being inherited

36:56

just like the wealth is inherited,

36:58

the poverty goes from generation to

37:00

generation too. Given that we are

37:03

talking about the South, which has

37:05

the highest population of enslaved people

37:07

in the United States and also

37:09

the highest population of free people

37:12

of color in the United States.

37:14

I imagine in this situation that

37:16

there may have been free people

37:19

of color who wanted to actually

37:21

form a relationship with an enslaved

37:23

person. Perhaps they wanted to marry

37:25

them or have children with them.

37:28

How did free people of color

37:30

navigate this situation where they might

37:32

have been free but their love

37:35

was actually enslaved? Definitely so you

37:37

do have free people of color

37:39

who marry enslaved people. Sometimes these

37:41

are free people of color were

37:44

enslaved themselves. and were manumated earlier

37:46

in life and then ended up

37:48

marrying somebody and slave or maybe

37:51

they were already married. while they

37:53

were enslaved, and that individual became

37:55

free, but the partner is not

37:58

free. So they're having to deal

38:00

with that. And free people of

38:02

color, again, they navigate these relationships

38:04

in a variety of different ways.

38:07

So there's some free people of

38:09

color, especially men who are trades

38:11

people who are able to save

38:14

up enough money to buy. their

38:16

slave members, whether it's a spouse

38:18

or children, and they basically are

38:20

able to control their families in

38:23

some way, whereas you have other

38:25

free people of color who maybe

38:27

are unable to do that, and

38:30

they have to compromise quite a

38:32

bit. I discussed a couple of

38:34

examples in my work about free

38:36

men of color who were married

38:39

to enslaved women, who ended up

38:41

having to follow these enslaved women

38:43

in different parts of the South.

38:46

So say they were based in

38:48

North Carolina when their relationship began,

38:50

but then the enslaver of the

38:52

spouse decides to move to Alabama

38:55

and take the family of this

38:57

free person of color with him.

38:59

And so the free person of

39:02

color has to tag along and

39:04

go to Alabama, which is illegal

39:06

in many cases, because they're not

39:08

supposed to actually move into Alabama.

39:11

And they're also giving up potentially

39:13

their citizenship rights or at least

39:15

their residency rights in North Carolina.

39:18

And so it creates a lot

39:20

of trouble for some free people

39:22

of color, especially those that are

39:24

poor. Yeah, and I have to

39:27

imagine that when you're involved in

39:29

this type of relationship where one

39:31

person's free and another is enslaved,

39:34

that you may even question whether

39:36

you want to have children because

39:38

in the United States, slavery followed

39:41

the line of the line of

39:43

the mother. So. If you're a

39:45

free man of color and you

39:47

have children with your enslaved partner,

39:50

then you're... children would have been

39:52

enslaved. Yeah, I think it was

39:54

a problem for some people. And

39:57

I think what you will see

39:59

is that these men who are

40:01

in these types of relationships, if

40:03

they do have the money, the

40:06

first thing they try to do

40:08

is buy their children as they're

40:10

being born. And the problem becomes

40:13

that sometimes you end up with

40:15

too many children, you just can't

40:17

keep up with freeing your kids,

40:19

or you end up in a

40:22

situation where your spouse is. being

40:24

a slave, somebody who's not going

40:26

to cooperate with you and engage

40:29

with you. And so I think

40:31

the maybe larger impact of this

40:33

is that we actually see a

40:35

lot of free people of color

40:38

who will have nothing to do

40:40

with enslaved people in this type

40:42

of situation. They will not marry

40:45

them. They won't associate with them

40:47

because ultimately if you do, there

40:49

are all these negative, potentially long-term

40:51

impacts. that come along with being

40:54

engaged in a relationship with an

40:56

enslaved person. I wonder if we

40:58

could talk a bit more about

41:01

the development of laws that would

41:03

have prevented free people of color

41:05

from moving about the early United

41:07

States. I know you mentioned this

41:10

earlier, Warren, but there were some

41:12

states that prohibited free people of

41:14

color for moving into their states.

41:17

And we just discussed that there

41:19

were free people of color who

41:21

married enslaved women. And it was

41:23

therefore possible for their enslaver to

41:26

take their wife and possibly their

41:28

children from North Carolina to Alabama.

41:30

and then that free spouse legally

41:33

wouldn't have been able to follow

41:35

them. So could you tell us

41:37

a bit more about the different

41:40

laws that were being passed to

41:42

restrain free people of color from

41:44

moving about the United States and

41:46

how free people of color navigated

41:49

these laws? Yeah, I mean usually

41:51

these laws will say a free

41:53

person of color can come into

41:56

this state and conduct business or

41:58

something like that for say 30

42:00

days and then they need to

42:02

leave or... On the opposite side,

42:05

you'll have laws that will say

42:07

a free person of color who

42:09

may have been bored. Let's just

42:12

say it. North Carolina, if every

42:14

person of color leaves the state

42:16

for more than 30 days or

42:18

more than 60 days, then that

42:21

person loses residency and then can't

42:23

come back to the state. These

42:25

are the kinds of laws that

42:28

pop up in different parts of

42:30

the South and the exact language

42:32

and time periods change over time.

42:34

And what we do see is

42:37

that by the time we use

42:39

the civil war, there is a

42:41

greater emphasis. or making punishments for,

42:44

say, leaving the state and coming

42:46

back or coming in the state

42:48

illegally or harsh. So the punishments

42:50

may not actually be defined in

42:53

the law early on, but over

42:55

time they become defined and it

42:57

may be, oh, you're going to

43:00

be hired out for a certain

43:02

amount of time if you come

43:04

illegally into the state, something that's

43:06

just more harsh, trying to dissuade.

43:09

free people of color from entering

43:11

states in the first place. That's

43:13

what we see. Thinking now about

43:16

the antebellum period, which is that

43:18

period right before the Civil War,

43:20

do we still see local communities

43:23

protecting their well-to-do free people of

43:25

color or their free men of

43:27

color by turning a blind eye

43:29

to some of these really restrictive

43:32

laws? Yeah, so what you'll see

43:34

sometimes is petitions coming from local

43:36

people, they'll be sent to the

43:39

state assembly. requesting an exemption from

43:41

the law. And often these petitions

43:43

will say, ex-free person of color

43:45

has lived in this community for

43:48

so many years because often these

43:50

laws aren't enforced immediately. They're enforced

43:52

20 years later or seven years

43:55

later, something like that. And so

43:57

the petition will say, this person

43:59

has lived in this community for

44:01

a long time has contributed to

44:04

this community in this community in

44:06

this community in this community in

44:08

this way. as a family in

44:11

this community, etc, etc. etc. Can

44:13

you please allow this person to

44:15

stay? And sometimes those requests are

44:17

granted and sometimes they're not. As

44:20

they think about movement, because we

44:22

are talking about a society that

44:24

has both free people of color

44:27

and enslaved people, I'm curious about

44:29

the dangers the free people of

44:31

color may have had as they

44:33

tried to protect their freedom and

44:36

also move about the United States.

44:38

So could you tell us about

44:40

the story of Solomon Northrop and

44:43

how typical or atypical his story

44:45

was? Solomon Northrop. from the North,

44:47

he was from New York specifically,

44:49

and during a visit to Washington

44:52

DC, he was kidnapped and he

44:54

illegally enslaved. He was transported through

44:56

Virginia to New Orleans and sold

44:59

in New Orleans and enslaved in

45:01

Louisiana for over a decade. And

45:03

eventually he is able to recover

45:06

his freedom because he's able to

45:08

get a letter out. to people

45:10

in New York, but even know

45:12

that he had been kidnapped and

45:15

was still alive and somebody came

45:17

down from New York and recovered

45:19

him. And so I would say

45:22

that the fact that he was

45:24

recovered is unusual, but his kidnapping

45:26

was a bit more common sadly.

45:28

From the early national period, in

45:31

particular, we see this development of

45:33

trade. and free people of color.

45:35

And I think part of what's

45:38

going on is that enslaved people

45:40

are expensive and free people are

45:42

free if you can catch one

45:44

and enslave that person and sell

45:47

them illegally. And so there are

45:49

some individuals who are working in

45:51

the upper south and even in

45:54

parts of the north kidnapping free

45:56

people of color and selling them

45:58

into bondage. And I would say

46:00

that from what I can see,

46:03

we don't have numbers on this

46:05

because of course this. trade is

46:07

illegal, right? But just glancing through

46:10

the evidence, it seems that children

46:12

in particular were targets of this

46:14

illegal traffic because children often don't

46:16

know a lot about their own

46:19

backgrounds. They're relatively easy to kidnap

46:21

compared to adults. It's very hard

46:23

to kidnap a grown man just

46:26

off of the street in a

46:28

way that it may be easier

46:30

to kidnap a child. And in

46:32

the case of Solomon Northrup, he

46:35

actually was drugged in order to

46:37

kidnap him. So it was a

46:39

very elaborate plan that took place

46:42

to kidnap Solomon Northrop, versus some

46:44

stories of children are simply cases

46:46

where a person may offer a

46:48

job, a piece of candy, something

46:51

of that nature that doesn't require

46:53

as much elaborate planning to take

46:55

these children away. So yeah, it's

46:58

definitely a problem throughout the region.

47:00

I know looking through governor's papers

47:02

in different states, I've seen cases

47:05

that reached governors from maybe one

47:07

southern state to another, claiming that

47:09

a resident free person of color

47:11

had been kidnapped and sent to,

47:14

say, Texas or Louisiana and the

47:16

governor of maybe an upper south

47:18

state is asking for the recovery

47:21

of this free person of color.

47:23

So we know that it's going

47:25

on. there are newspaper ads that

47:27

relay these stories as well. So

47:30

it's a problem. And I think

47:32

in certain ways Northam's story is

47:34

common because he did spend quite

47:37

a long period of time in

47:39

Louisiana, but at the same time

47:41

this story is unique because he

47:43

was able to write about it

47:46

after the fact that he was

47:48

recovered. Leslie wonders how vigilant a

47:50

free person of color needed to

47:53

be when it came to kidnappers

47:55

and being sold into slavery. Would

47:57

you tell us about the different

47:59

techniques or tactics free people of

48:02

color employed to protect? their freedom.

48:04

Again, I think it depends on

48:06

where you're located. If you're in

48:09

a city, you're probably in a

48:11

more dangerous situation than say if

48:13

you're in a rural area, although

48:15

there are kidnappings that take place

48:18

in rural areas. And I think

48:20

part of that is is that

48:22

when you're in the city, there's

48:25

just so many more strangers. People

48:27

tend to engage in business with

48:29

people that they don't know. Whereas

48:31

in a more rural community, everybody

48:34

knows everybody to some extent. And

48:36

so it's just much more difficult

48:38

to be a kidnapper and come

48:41

into a rural community and people

48:43

not be aware that you are

48:45

in that area and at least

48:48

be somewhat suspicious of you, ask

48:50

questions of you. So in that

48:52

sense, community plays a really important

48:54

role. protecting free people of color

48:57

from kidnapping, right? The fact that

48:59

you know who everybody is in

49:01

your community to a certain extent

49:04

helps keep you safe. And often

49:06

when rural communities are exposed is

49:08

when there's somebody within the community

49:10

that is involved in the kidnapping.

49:13

So I mentioned the example or

49:15

two where there are individuals from

49:17

the community or and then they

49:20

take that individual outside of the

49:22

community and try to traffic them.

49:24

And so that's how those free

49:26

people of color end up in

49:29

trouble potentially. I probably should have

49:31

asked this a bit earlier, but

49:33

since we are on the topic

49:36

of communities, in both of your

49:38

books, Warren, North Carolina's free people

49:40

of color and beyond slavery shadow,

49:42

you know that early American communities

49:45

really needed free people of color

49:47

to live in their communities. And

49:49

I wonder if you would tell

49:52

us about this need and... How

49:54

free people of color fit within

49:56

the communities that they lived in?

49:58

For people of color we're thinking

50:01

about. their role in the economy

50:03

are playing a variety of different

50:05

parts. So you have some three

50:08

people of color who are doing

50:10

basically the grunt work of the

50:12

community, their common laborers, their ditch

50:14

diggers, their servants, they're doing that

50:17

type of work. And then you

50:19

have other three people of color

50:21

who have been trained in a

50:24

certain skill or a certain trade.

50:26

and they're able to have an

50:28

impact in their community in that

50:31

way. So say in the colonial

50:33

period, we're talking about the local

50:35

blacksmith or we're talking about the

50:37

barrel makers, the wheel rights, people

50:40

of that nature, who might be

50:42

free people of color. And then

50:44

as we get into the 19th

50:47

century, we see a even larger

50:49

number of trades that free people

50:51

of color are involved in. And

50:53

free people color even involved in

50:56

things like money lending. So there

50:58

are people who are debtors to

51:00

free people of color and depend

51:03

on them for access to cash

51:05

and things of that nature. So

51:07

free people of color are important

51:09

to their communities and every different

51:12

level. And one example that I

51:14

can think of from my book

51:16

that might be helpful in explaining

51:19

the importance of free people of

51:21

color comes from Virginia. And there's

51:23

a case where a free man

51:25

of color is a gunsmith and

51:28

apparently he's the only gunsmith in

51:30

the area for two different counties

51:32

and Virginia passes a law basically

51:35

limiting the access to free people

51:37

of color to guns but the

51:39

gunsmith is a free person of

51:41

color in this community and people

51:44

are like we need this guy

51:46

to stay around and we need

51:48

him to keep working on our

51:51

guns and apparently even after Virginia

51:53

limits the rights of free people

51:55

of color to old weapons. He's

51:57

still in business because what are

52:00

the people? are going to do.

52:02

They need their guns to hunt,

52:04

to protect their houses, all of

52:07

those kind of things. And so

52:09

they're, again, willing to look the

52:11

other way because the sky is

52:13

so essential to their day-to-day lives.

52:16

That's another great example of state's

52:18

passing laws and locals deciding, no,

52:20

I don't think we're going to

52:23

enforce that law or we're going

52:25

to enforce it in a very

52:27

different way. Exactly. Now, when we

52:30

think of free people of color

52:32

living in urban communities, We tend

52:34

to think of the institutions they

52:36

established. Schools, churches, mutual aid societies,

52:39

or welfare organizations, you know, those

52:41

organizations where free people of color

52:43

in the community would have pulled

52:46

all their resources together so that

52:48

they could help members of their

52:50

community when they hit a rough

52:52

patch. Did you find this to

52:55

be the case in rural areas

52:57

of the South Warren? Did free

52:59

people of color who lived in

53:02

rural areas of the South have

53:04

similar opportunities to create institutions that

53:06

would have... helped improve and better

53:08

their lives in their local communities?

53:11

Yeah, absolutely. We see schools in

53:13

certain rural parts of the South

53:15

for free people of color. Often

53:18

free people of color have to

53:20

create their own schools because they're

53:22

excluded from public schools when they

53:24

do exist. And in many parts

53:27

of the South, there are no

53:29

public schools. And so free people

53:31

of color have to find ways

53:34

to educate their children on their

53:36

own. So either create schools or

53:38

they hire tutors. for their kids

53:40

if they have the financial resources

53:43

to do so. And there are

53:45

also churches created by free people

53:47

of color in some rural parts

53:50

of the South, especially parts of

53:52

the upper South, places like Maryland,

53:54

you'll find these rural churches, some

53:56

areas of Virginia, North Carolina, there

53:59

are rural churches created by free

54:01

people of color for their exclusive

54:03

use. And in these places, they're

54:06

able to have... a little bit

54:08

more autonomy. far as deciding how

54:10

the church is going to operate

54:13

and having political positions within the

54:15

churches because that's I think the

54:17

problem for many free people of

54:19

color and why they decide to

54:22

create their own institutions is because

54:24

they're not allowed to have positions

54:26

of power within churches in which

54:29

white people are part of the

54:31

congregation. Yeah, can we talk a

54:33

bit more about churches because communities

54:35

of free people of color. Churches

54:38

are most often the institution that

54:40

come up as playing the most

54:42

important role in these communities. So

54:45

could you tell us a little

54:47

bit more about churches and their

54:49

role in these rural communities of

54:51

the South? Yeah, well I think

54:54

in certain cases these churches become

54:56

the base for many of their

54:58

larger social interactions with one another,

55:01

thinking especially about places such as

55:03

Baltimore, the church. is not just

55:05

a religious center, but it also

55:07

hosts some of the schools. Social

55:10

organizations come out of the churches,

55:12

and some of those are specifically

55:14

church related, but also you see

55:17

during the temperance movement, temperance organizations

55:19

coming out of churches, you see

55:21

social gatherings coming out of churches,

55:23

church clubs often do fundraising for

55:26

different community activities. So the churches

55:28

in that sense are central to

55:30

the general social operations of free

55:33

people of color who again often

55:35

are not given the opportunity to

55:37

interact as equals with their white

55:39

neighbors so they have to find

55:42

spaces for themselves in order to

55:44

fulfill their needs. Warren, you have

55:46

researched and written two books about

55:49

the lives and experiences of free

55:51

people of color in the South.

55:53

You know, today we've been talking

55:55

broadly about North Carolina's free people

55:58

of color and beyond slavery. Given

56:00

all of the different research you've

56:02

done about these people's

56:04

lives, is there an aspect of

56:07

the history of free people of

56:09

color in the South that you really

56:11

wish more people knew about? Well,

56:14

I think I want people to take

56:16

away from the story of free

56:18

people of color is that freedom

56:21

is something that, at least in

56:23

the U.S. context, exist on

56:25

a spectrum that's not a

56:27

single... status a single experience.

56:30

Sometimes I think we like

56:32

to think of freedom as

56:34

black and white, there's slavery

56:36

and there's freedom, but we

56:38

see from the situation of free

56:41

people of color that freedom can

56:43

be a lot of different things.

56:45

It can be the struggles of

56:47

the poor, free person of

56:50

color struggling to control his

56:52

or her family and make a

56:54

living. And it also can be the

56:56

story of the successful free man of

56:58

color who's a voter in North Carolina

57:01

and an enslaver as well.

57:03

All those experiences fit under

57:05

freedom just like our current situation.

57:07

We have people who are described

57:10

as free in this country who

57:12

experience freedom in very different ways.

57:14

Well, let's move into the timework.

57:17

This is a fun segment of the show

57:19

where we ask you a hypothetical

57:21

history question about what might

57:23

have happened as something that

57:25

occurred differently. or if someone

57:28

had acted differently. Now in his books,

57:30

Warren notes that in 1791,

57:32

Armslaves overthrew the French colonial

57:34

government of San Domingg and

57:36

established the new independent country

57:38

of Haiti. In his research, Warren

57:40

found that white Americans responded

57:43

to the Haitian Revolution by

57:45

placing legal restrictions on free people

57:47

of color at home in the

57:49

United States. Warren, in your opinion,

57:51

what might have happened if the

57:53

Haitian revolution had failed? How might life

57:55

have been different for the free people of

57:57

color who lived in the early United States?

58:00

Well, I think the most obvious

58:02

difference would be the situation of

58:04

free people of color in Louisiana.

58:06

Large percentage of the free people

58:08

of color in Louisiana came there

58:10

as a result of the revolution.

58:13

So it's very impossible. Many of

58:15

them would not have come. Many

58:17

of them also came bringing their

58:19

wealth, including the people they enslaved.

58:21

So I think it would have

58:23

totally restructured the economic impact of

58:26

free people of color in New

58:28

Orleans and probably in Louisiana as

58:30

a whole and I can imagine

58:32

that that would have led to

58:34

maybe a faster denigration of their

58:36

rights in Louisiana than what happened

58:38

in reality because they wouldn't have

58:41

had the social connections necessarily to

58:43

uphold their status. in the way

58:45

that they were able to at

58:47

least at the local level. So

58:49

I think that's where we see

58:51

the greater impact in the rest

58:53

of the South. I don't know.

58:56

I mean, there are free people

58:58

of color who left that region

59:00

and came to Virginia and South

59:02

Carolina and Georgia and places like

59:04

that as well. But there were

59:06

much smaller number and ultimately I

59:09

don't think that it would have

59:11

had a significant impact. But again,

59:13

who really knows because as far

59:15

as the way that I focus

59:17

on the revolution in the context

59:19

of the more broader South, the

59:21

revolution is being used by politicians

59:24

as a way to restrict the

59:26

movement of free people of color.

59:28

And I think at the end

59:30

of the day, those restrictions would

59:32

have appeared whether it appeared in

59:34

the 1790s or later in the

59:37

19th century. I think they would

59:39

have come about and been strengthened

59:41

because What I tried to explain

59:43

is that politicians often come up

59:45

with ways to discriminate against free

59:47

people of color, but they need

59:49

the right opportunity to implement those

59:52

restrictions. And so the revolution ultimately

59:54

becomes a opportunity for them to

59:56

implement ideas that they probably have

59:58

had before the revolution took place.

1:00:00

So what's next for you, Warren?

1:00:02

Have you started a new research

1:00:04

project yet? Are you still thinking

1:00:07

about working on free people of

1:00:09

color in the South? I'm still

1:00:11

working on that. I'm thinking that

1:00:13

I'll probably continue looking at the

1:00:15

lives of free people of color.

1:00:17

There's, I think, a lot to

1:00:20

uncover, especially making some of these

1:00:22

connections between experiences of free people

1:00:24

color in South and those in

1:00:26

the North, getting a better understanding

1:00:28

of the development of discrimination against

1:00:30

free people of color in both

1:00:32

regions and how those forms of

1:00:35

discrimination may be connected or not

1:00:37

connected. I think that I will

1:00:39

probably go into some of that

1:00:41

in the future, but I'm still

1:00:43

thinking. And how can we get

1:00:45

in touch with you if we

1:00:47

have more questions? Well, you can

1:00:50

find me on Twitter at W.E.

1:00:52

Miltier. I'm also having a website,

1:00:54

Warren miltier.com, and you can find

1:00:56

more about me and my work

1:00:58

there. Thank you for joining us

1:01:00

and for providing us with an

1:01:03

overview of the experiences of free

1:01:05

people of color in the early

1:01:07

United States and in the early

1:01:09

American South. Thank you so much

1:01:11

for having me. Freedom is not

1:01:13

a black and white concept. It's

1:01:15

not a black and white concept

1:01:18

today and it certainly wasn't a

1:01:20

straightforward, evenly applied or inclusive concept

1:01:22

in early America. But by taking

1:01:24

the time to explore different experiences

1:01:26

with freedom throughout the history of

1:01:28

the United States, we can better

1:01:30

understand how our modern day ideas

1:01:33

about freedom. and who should be

1:01:35

allowed to enjoy the right to

1:01:37

speak, act, move and participate in

1:01:39

our democratic process. how those ideas

1:01:41

developed. This is why it was

1:01:43

great for us to speak with

1:01:46

Warren. Warren's research on free people

1:01:48

of color between the British colonial

1:01:50

period of North American history and

1:01:52

the United States of Civil War

1:01:54

offers us a window through which

1:01:56

we can see the different ways

1:01:58

in which freedom exists as a

1:02:01

spectrum. Now where early Americans fell

1:02:03

on the spectrum of freedom really

1:02:05

depended on many factors. As Warren

1:02:07

mentioned a person's race, gender, wealth,

1:02:09

trade skills, and whether they own

1:02:11

land and enslaved people. all played

1:02:13

a big role in determining someone's

1:02:16

freedom and their place within their

1:02:18

community. Take the example Warren shared

1:02:20

with us of the Virginia gunsmith.

1:02:22

The gunsmith was a free man

1:02:24

of color and his knowledge and

1:02:26

skill as a maker and fixer

1:02:29

of firearms was seen as so

1:02:31

valuable that when the state of

1:02:33

Virginia passed a law to prohibit

1:02:35

people of color from owning, bearing,

1:02:37

or handling firearms, the gunsmith's community

1:02:39

said, no way, we're not going

1:02:41

to follow and of course this

1:02:44

law. Our gunsmith is just too

1:02:46

important and too important and too

1:02:48

respected by our community by our

1:02:50

community. to enforce that restriction. And

1:02:52

this flexibility in the application of

1:02:54

laws is something that came up

1:02:56

again and again throughout our conversation

1:02:59

with Warren. If a community really

1:03:01

respected a free person of color

1:03:03

as a member of their community,

1:03:05

then that community often shied away

1:03:07

from enforcing laws that tended to

1:03:09

discriminate and limit the freedoms of

1:03:12

those valued free people of color.

1:03:14

Now while variation and flexibility certainly

1:03:16

existed in local law enforcement, we

1:03:18

shouldn't forget the bigotry and discrimination

1:03:20

lived everywhere in the early United

1:03:22

States. No one ever had as

1:03:24

many rights as elite white men.

1:03:27

But being able to see that

1:03:29

there was flexibility in the application

1:03:31

of laws and freedom really allows

1:03:33

us to see and better understand

1:03:35

the complexity and varied experiences that

1:03:37

all sorts of Americans had with

1:03:39

freedom. You'll find information about Warren,

1:03:42

his two books, North Carolina's free

1:03:44

people of color, and beyond slavery

1:03:46

shadow. Plus notes and links for

1:03:48

everything we talked about today, all

1:03:50

in the show notes page. Ben

1:03:52

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