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impacted by emergencies. Hi, I'm Laura

3:01

Vanderkam. I'm a mother of

3:03

five, an author, journalist, and

3:06

speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart

3:08

Unger, a mother of three,

3:11

practicing physician, writer, and course

3:13

creator. We are two working

3:16

parents who love our careers

3:18

and our families. Welcome to

3:21

Best of Both Worlds. Here

3:23

we talk about how real

3:26

women manage work. family and

3:28

time for fun. From figuring

3:30

out child care to mapping

3:33

out long-term career goals, we

3:35

want you to get the most

3:38

out of life. Welcome to Best

3:40

of Both Worlds. This is Laura.

3:42

This episode is airing in

3:44

mid-January of 2025. Sarah is

3:46

going to be interviewing Tracy

3:48

Thomas from the Stacks podcast.

3:51

They're going to be talking

3:53

all things reading. I know

3:55

a lot of people are looking to...

3:57

achieve various reading goals in the new year

3:59

also. have a good reading habit in

4:01

their lives. We're going to be finding

4:03

out lots of ideas from her. So

4:06

Sarah, how was your reading year last

4:08

year, like in 2024? It was great

4:10

for about seven months, and then it

4:12

just fell into a hole. And I

4:14

think it was just a mix of

4:16

life stressors, picking the wrong novel that

4:18

I got stuck on, and writing a

4:21

lot, because when you're writing a lot,

4:23

it is a little bit harder for

4:25

me to consume so many words, as

4:27

I'm trying to produce so many words.

4:29

I would say it was not a

4:31

great reading year for me either. I

4:33

mean, I read some good books. I

4:36

went on a kick of reading about

4:38

the ancient earth, so I now know

4:40

the history of earth from like when

4:42

life was first appearing 600, maybe even

4:44

700 million years ago in the various

4:46

extinctions that occurred along the way. It's

4:48

kind of fascinating, really. I could go

4:51

in a whole tangent about the fact

4:53

that you haven't found the fossils, doesn't

4:55

mean there wasn't anything. It just means

4:57

that... Maybe animals were of the form

4:59

that didn't fossilize? The beginning is the

5:01

time moves backward. Let's just say the

5:03

time keeps moving backward. So funny, funny

5:05

thing with that. Anyway, I read very

5:08

little else. I read about the ancient

5:10

earth and like nothing else. But you

5:12

know, it's just, it was something that

5:14

had to go. I've had a lot

5:16

of other things going on. I don't

5:18

know. You're writing a lot too. Like,

5:20

I'm writing a lot. Yeah. It might

5:23

be, I wonder how many words you

5:25

wrote in 2024, I bet it was

5:27

like, just because of your substacks, like

5:29

it was a lot. Yeah. Well, between

5:31

substat and the book. Before breakfast, the

5:33

book, everything else, blogging, other newsletters, maybe

5:35

I should pare all this down some,

5:38

but you know, whatever, it's fine. I

5:40

like it, I like it. But you

5:42

know, did you track what you read?

5:44

I did in 2017 and 2018. Those

5:46

years I kept a reading log. I

5:48

have stopped doing that. I have tracked

5:50

every year since I believe 2020 and

5:53

there might even be if I mine

5:55

my blog I think there might even

5:57

be some earlier years but I I

5:59

regret this actually like I'm so jealous

6:01

of people who have good reads going

6:03

back 15 years or however long good

6:05

reads has existed for or who have

6:07

a notebook of like every book they've

6:10

read since they were 20 or something

6:12

like that I feel like I would

6:14

have loved to have that kind of

6:16

artifact and I absolutely don't. But yeah

6:18

since 2020 they're all 2020 through 2023

6:20

I think are on my blog and

6:22

then in 2024 I just went on

6:25

paper so I need to immortalize that

6:27

somehow and then we'll see I think

6:29

I'm gonna go back to posting them

6:31

in 2025. Okay well that sounds good

6:33

yeah I posted little reviews on my

6:35

website for a while and then kind

6:37

of stopped doing that too. Many things

6:40

stopped after I just stopped posting anything

6:42

related to books. Do you have a

6:44

TVR list though? Do you like keep

6:46

track of what you want to read?

6:48

Like from time to time, I'll make

6:50

one. Sometimes when I'm doing my seasonal

6:52

planning, it's not at all a, like

6:55

I'm not trying to read them all.

6:57

I'm not trying to only read books

6:59

from that list. I need to have

7:01

more looseness. And like if I say,

7:03

if I hear a review that sounds

7:05

awesome and I want to like order

7:07

it right then and there and read

7:09

that, that's totally fine. But I think

7:12

it helps me strategize my library and

7:14

then whether I actually read all of

7:16

those can vary. So I kind of

7:18

just if I see a book that

7:20

I want to read I'd like take

7:22

a picture of it or I write

7:24

it down or email it to myself

7:27

and Then when I'm looking for something

7:29

to read if I have those I

7:31

will often Download the sample on Kindle

7:33

first and that's just because I've been

7:35

I mean it's sort of the equivalent

7:37

of like checking it out from the

7:39

library because it's free for that part

7:42

and then you can test it out

7:44

and I do buy the vast majority

7:46

of the books that I've downloaded the

7:48

sample from but I've been saved from

7:50

a few purchases for things that sounded

7:52

excellent and then within the first like

7:54

three pages I was like this person

7:57

is no no this is not going

7:59

to be something I'm going to want

8:01

to read. So good to know that.

8:03

You would have known that maybe if

8:05

you read the first few pages in

8:07

Barnes and Noble you just don't know

8:09

that necessarily online. I mean I guess

8:11

they do sometimes post the first pages,

8:14

but I don't. That's my life hack.

8:16

I've mentioned that I'm sure many times

8:18

is download the sample, see if you

8:20

like it, and then you can really

8:22

order it. The nice thing is I

8:24

feel like that also provides a really

8:26

kind of... It points out that there's

8:29

a cut point at which you are

8:31

actively deciding to continue or not, which

8:33

for somebody like me who has trouble,

8:35

like, it's not that I don't want

8:37

to abandon books, it's just that I'll

8:39

get past a certain point and feel

8:41

like, oh, well, if I've invested this

8:44

much, like, I should, but I mean,

8:46

if I've only had the sample, you

8:48

have this limited number, and then you're

8:50

like, is it yes or is no?

8:52

But I'm excited to hear what Tracy

8:54

has to say, so here's Tracy Thomas

8:56

from The Stacks. Well, I am so

8:59

excited to welcome Tracy to the podcast.

9:01

She is the host of the Stacks,

9:03

which she'll tell us all about, and

9:05

I am so inspired by her reading

9:07

life, and I'm sure you will be

9:09

as well. Welcome, Tracy. Hi, thank you

9:11

for having me. Well, today we're going

9:13

to talk all things, books, and reading,

9:16

which I know is on the top

9:18

of many people's minds as we're entering

9:20

a new year, reading goals, reading goals,

9:22

reading goals, Let's start with the fact

9:24

that, well, we don't have the total

9:26

number of books you read last year,

9:28

Tracy, but it was at least 110

9:31

in like November. So where are we?

9:33

So it's December as we're recording this

9:35

and I am at, let me pull

9:37

out my spreadsheet, I am at 130,

9:39

130. That is amazing. 131. Before you

9:41

assume that Tracy like must have lots

9:43

of free time, we will also note

9:46

that she has. five-year-old twins! A sure

9:48

do. A sure do. Yeah. So I

9:50

obviously part of it probably has to

9:52

do with your career choice that you

9:54

are a podcaster, but I'm super interested

9:56

in your reading journey. Like, did you

9:58

always read that much? And did your

10:01

reading change when you entered the parenting

10:03

phase? Okay, so no, I did not

10:05

always read a hundred plus books in

10:07

my life a year. No, no, no,

10:09

no, no. That's because this is my

10:11

job. I did always love to read

10:13

and sort of the origin story of

10:16

the podcast and also just like reading

10:18

background is that I used to live

10:20

in New York. I used to read

10:22

a ton as a ton as a

10:24

kid. after I graduated college and was

10:26

living in New York, I was like,

10:28

I want to read more, so I

10:30

started reading more for fun. And then

10:33

when I moved to LA in 2012,

10:35

I like stopped reading completely because there

10:37

was no subway to read on. Life

10:39

is just very different in LA than

10:41

in New York. And so in 2016,

10:43

I was like, I'm going to read

10:45

a book a month. That's my goal.

10:48

I'm going to like, knock it out.

10:50

I finished that. I thought I thought

10:52

I was. the new like champion of

10:54

the world. I was like, send me

10:56

my Pulitzer Prize. I am a winner.

10:58

And then in 2017, I was like,

11:00

I'm gonna read 13 books. I ended

11:03

up reading 24 books because I sort

11:05

of like hit my stride. And then

11:07

in 2018, I started the show and

11:09

that year I ended up reading 89

11:11

books. So obviously you can see there

11:13

was a large jump in my reading

11:15

from when I was just reading sort

11:18

of for pleasure to get back into

11:20

reading and then when reading sort of

11:22

became my life. But then I'm doing

11:24

the math, so then you got pregnant.

11:26

Yeah, I got pregnant. My kids were

11:28

born in December 2019. Oh. Yeah, so

11:30

2019, I read like a hundred books

11:32

and then in 2020, I think I

11:35

read 95. So not too much less,

11:37

but I was still working and doing

11:39

the show. So I didn't have a

11:41

lot of room to like cut back

11:43

on reading. Also, like a pandemic happened

11:45

in 2020, which really shook things up.

11:47

It was like a very, people always

11:50

ask me, they're like, oh, what was

11:52

it like having like baby newborn twins?

11:54

And I'm like, I cannot separate. that

11:56

from a major global pandemic, because they

11:58

were premature. They were three months, not

12:00

even when COVID started. So like, the

12:02

whole thing is just all tied up

12:05

in, and I haven't really unpacked that

12:07

yet. Super interesting. Well, from a pure

12:09

logistic standpoint, it's 2020. You have twin

12:11

babies, which still blows my mind. I

12:13

have three children, but like, they're spaced

12:15

out. I've never had two babies at

12:17

once, and I'm always just so in

12:20

awe of twin moms. You had your

12:22

two babies and how did you fit

12:24

in your reading, even though it was

12:26

your job? I mean, when did you

12:28

do it? Was it like you would

12:30

nurse and read and like tell me

12:32

a little bit about like how, because

12:34

I'm sure your amount of quote free

12:37

time probably did change. Yeah, I mean,

12:39

so I read still now and back

12:41

then in a lot of different ways

12:43

and in a lot of different times.

12:45

So I read physical books, I read

12:47

audio books and I read off Kindle.

12:49

When I was nursing my boys, I

12:52

had one on each breast and I

12:54

would sit so that my legs were

12:56

sort of crossed and then I would

12:58

put my Kindle on my knee and

13:00

then I would bend over with my

13:02

nose and touch my nose to the

13:04

Kindle to turn the bait. It was

13:07

like so silly, but that's how I

13:09

could do it. Like it made the

13:11

most sense. It was like also one

13:13

of the most calm times in my

13:15

day, right? besides nap time, which is

13:17

when I got a lot of work

13:19

done, but also during nap time I

13:22

was recording episodes of the show. I

13:24

would have these like two-hour chunks of

13:26

time where I could like record something

13:28

or write something or get work reading

13:30

done or whatever. So I was in

13:32

the beginning when they were still taking

13:34

like three naps in the daytime hours,

13:36

I was like, this is great. I

13:39

have these like, like six hours to

13:41

work. But yeah, I also used to

13:43

go on these really long walks. So,

13:45

you know, I always tell parents, you

13:47

can read. There is enough time for

13:49

you to read. It's just a matter

13:51

of that's your priority. doesn't have to

13:54

be, right? Like, it could be you

13:56

want to exercise, it could be you

13:58

want to cook, it could be you

14:00

want to watch TV, it could be

14:02

you want to scroll on Instagram, but

14:04

if it's something that you want to

14:06

do, there's definitely time in the day

14:09

to do. It might not be while

14:11

you're nursing twins, like that might not

14:13

be the number one priority in that

14:15

moment, but for me, it worked. I

14:17

nurse and then I bottle and then

14:19

I'd nurse and then I'd as I

14:21

was like feeding them. The image, I'm

14:24

never gonna, I'm like, this is like

14:26

seared into my brain forever, is like

14:28

twin on each side and nose touching

14:30

the Kindle. I mean, I do feel

14:32

like that does illustrate a passion for

14:34

reading that is beyond average. That is

14:36

amazing. So I guess they have these

14:39

like clickers, like you like a little

14:41

remote that you can turn the page.

14:43

I'm sure there was then too, but

14:45

I didn't have a hand to click

14:47

it with your nose. Exactly. So like

14:49

it's still when someone was like, oh,

14:51

you could have used a click or

14:53

I'm like, I mean, with what hand?

14:56

I'm still down your foot, your foot.

14:58

I guess, but like, I think you

15:00

have to, I don't know if my

15:02

toes are that strong. I could have

15:04

also just done audio books in that

15:06

time. I don't know why I didn't

15:08

think of that, but a lot going

15:11

on. No, but maybe you wanted the

15:13

process of like, because it is like

15:15

a different. I don't know, like puts

15:17

you in a different kind of head

15:19

space. Maybe it was especially relaxing to

15:21

be able to have my Kindle. I

15:23

don't know. I can't really quite get

15:26

back there mentally. I'm so impressed. Well,

15:28

let's fast forward to today and I

15:30

know you have a show, but like,

15:32

let's pretend you sort of didn't have

15:34

a show. How do you curate your

15:36

reading or how do you recommend that

15:38

others curate your reading or don't? Like,

15:41

should people just be like pure, I

15:43

mean, I think it really depends on

15:45

why you want to read. What I

15:47

do want to say is like, I

15:49

think folks should be intentional with their

15:51

reading. They should be thinking about who

15:53

the authors are, like, what if they're,

15:55

you know, from marginalized backgrounds, maybe they

15:58

have a disability, maybe it's queer authors.

16:00

There are books that are fantastic. by

16:02

all sorts of people from all over

16:04

the world, written in all sorts of

16:06

languages, many of which have been translated

16:08

into English. So if you don't speak,

16:10

I don't know, Russian, you could probably

16:13

still read a great Russian novel in

16:15

English, you know. But with that being

16:17

said, I think you should go with

16:19

what excites you. I think that if

16:21

you see a book in the bookstore,

16:23

and you're like, that cover is calling

16:25

my name, I think you should probably

16:28

just read that book. And if you

16:30

hate it, subscribe to the idea that

16:32

you should force yourself to finish a

16:34

book. I have to because it's my

16:36

job, but like you do not have

16:38

to, unless it's your job, right? Like

16:40

even for your book club, you don't

16:43

have to finish it. Like your friends

16:45

might be like, you didn't finish the

16:47

book again, and then you can say,

16:49

well, I thought it was bad, and

16:51

then you can have a conversation about

16:53

it, and that's a great thing for

16:55

a book club. Like there's no homework

16:57

assignment, And also, just because you put

17:00

a book down doesn't mean you might

17:02

not go back to it at another

17:04

time. I think people feel like, oh,

17:06

I bought this, and it was expensive,

17:08

and books are expensive, and so I

17:10

understand that, but that will not help

17:12

you read more. Feeling stuck with a

17:15

book, that won't help. As far as

17:17

like curating it, I like to read

17:19

what I like to read, even now

17:21

for my show, I still read a

17:23

lot of books just because I want

17:25

to read them that never appear on

17:27

the show. because I'm excited about them

17:30

or I'm interested or I'm curious or

17:32

for whatever reason and I think if

17:34

you're reading as long as you take

17:36

sort of the should out of your

17:38

reading life I think for the most

17:40

part you'll be successful. No that makes

17:42

sense. Do you have like a certain

17:45

number of pages that you recommend like

17:47

you know you said if you hate

17:49

a book but I personally do struggle

17:51

with abandoning books not because I have

17:53

some moral obligation to finish, but because

17:55

I'll get to some point and be

17:57

like, oh, well, I'm so close. Like,

17:59

maybe it'll get better. Like, I've invested

18:02

this much. Like, I don't know. So

18:04

tell me, like, is a rule of

18:06

thumb for you? I don't have a

18:08

specific number of pages, but generally, I

18:10

can tell. very early if I like

18:12

something or I don't like something. I

18:14

read a lot of nonfiction. That's what

18:17

I personally really love. And with a

18:19

lot of nonfiction books, after the introduction,

18:21

I can kind of be like, oh,

18:23

I don't care. Because sometimes, you know,

18:25

like they lay out what the book's

18:27

going to be in the introduction. So

18:29

a lot of times I'm like, okay,

18:32

I think I got everything I needed

18:34

to get from this. I usually will

18:36

put it down. Sometimes if it's come

18:38

highly recommended from someone and they say

18:40

like the beginning is very slow, I'll

18:42

give it more and sometimes they're right

18:44

and it picks up and I love

18:47

it. And sometimes I'm like, no, this

18:49

whole book is slow, I'm done. And

18:51

you know, sometimes like I'll start a

18:53

book and I'll like it and then

18:55

I'll put it down because I'm just

18:57

like, oh, I have something else to

18:59

like it just didn't quite capture me.

19:02

But I definitely don't have any. really

19:04

strict numbers because it also depends on

19:06

a book. 50 pages and a 250

19:08

page book is pretty deep into the

19:10

book. 50 pages into a 500 page

19:12

book is still pretty early, you know,

19:14

so it just depends on what the

19:16

book is and how it feels. It

19:19

just depends on what the book is

19:21

and how it feels. I would say

19:23

just trust yourself. If you're in it

19:25

and you're like, I don't want to

19:27

do this anymore, I think you could

19:29

not do it. It just wasn't. It

19:31

was just trying to read it in

19:34

October last year, which is a really

19:36

busy time for me, and I picked

19:38

it up in January, and I finished

19:40

it so quickly, and I loved it.

19:42

And sometimes that could be like a

19:44

years-long process, like I go back to

19:46

a book four or five years later.

19:49

actually the book that I was reading

19:51

when I got induced with my boys

19:53

I put down to read like a

19:55

book about sleep training and I just

19:57

finished it this year and I loved

19:59

it it was one of my favorite

20:01

books and it's by one of my

20:04

favorite authors but I just like I

20:06

need to know it was say nothing

20:08

by Patrick Radinke's they just made it

20:10

into a TV show it's so good

20:12

and I had read like the first

20:14

150 pages and then I had to

20:16

go get induced you know like I

20:18

was just like this is and it's

20:21

a book of about the troubles in

20:23

Ireland, it just like was not exactly

20:25

what I needed in the moment. And

20:27

then I got so busy and so

20:29

many things happened and I just never

20:31

felt called to it. And then I

20:33

went to Ireland this summer and so

20:36

I brought it with me and I

20:38

went back and I started it over

20:40

and I finished it and so quickly

20:42

and I just loved it. It's like

20:44

one of my favorite books. It's so

20:46

good. So just because you put something

20:48

down doesn't mean that you can't go

20:51

back to it when it feels right.

20:53

I think that also takes the pressure

20:55

off of abandoning it. You're like, it

20:57

doesn't have to be forever. It's just

20:59

like right now. And I'm hearing that

21:01

you probably err on the side of

21:03

leaving earlier than maybe some people do.

21:06

Yes. And I need to take your

21:08

advice because for me, I can't even

21:10

admit to myself that I don't like

21:12

something. I'll just know because I'm stuck.

21:14

Like if I like it, I'll be

21:16

reading it. I'll be reading it. I

21:18

probably don't like it. If you're not

21:20

like, if you're not reading it, if

21:23

it feels like homework, just put it

21:25

down. Yeah, then it's not for now.

21:27

Yeah. Oh my gosh. All right, we're

21:29

going to take a quick break. We're

21:31

going to be back talking about lots

21:33

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25:18

right, we are back and I love

25:20

planning and tracking things and I always

25:22

am fascinated. Okay, good. About how different

25:24

people who read a lot. And I

25:26

don't read as much as you. I'm

25:29

more in like the 40 to 50.

25:31

So it's a lot less onerous. But

25:33

how do you track your reading? Oh

25:35

my gosh. I track my reading in

25:37

so many different ways. It's actually getting

25:39

to be like obscene. So first and

25:41

foremost, I have a reading tracker spreadsheet

25:43

that I have built over the last.

25:46

I mean, I keep changing it every

25:48

year. I update and change it. But.

25:50

It's just like a Google sheet. It's

25:52

actually something that I offer. I have

25:54

a patron and it's a perk that

25:56

I offer to my patrons in December

25:58

and January of every year. And it's

26:01

like you can only get it then

26:03

and then it goes away for the

26:05

next year. But it has title, it

26:07

has author, it has like the imprint

26:09

and the publisher, it has how many

26:11

pages, it has how I read it,

26:13

it has my Scott Star rating, it

26:16

has what country they're from, if it's

26:18

in translation. Every possible little detail you

26:20

could need for a book. I think

26:22

for like a general reader, it's probably

26:24

too much. But for me, it's really

26:26

helpful to go back and see like

26:28

what I was reading. There's also a

26:31

page. So that's like the first page

26:33

is just raw data. Then the second

26:35

page, it's like a little chart and

26:37

it fills in the percentages, like what

26:39

percent. And then there's a page for

26:41

each year. So the 2024 stats, 2023

26:43

stats goes all way back. Then there's

26:45

a page for what we call TBR,

26:48

which is a 2B read list, and

26:50

that's where I enter every single book

26:52

that comes into my home. So I

26:54

know, because I get sent a lot

26:56

of books for my job, so I

26:58

know, and by a lot, I mean,

27:00

like 400 to 700 a year, just

27:03

depending on the year. Like, it's a

27:05

lot of books. So I know, too

27:07

many to read, but also too many

27:09

to even know what I have. And

27:11

so it's helpful for me to. put

27:13

it in a spreadsheet because sometimes I'll

27:15

get pitched a book and then I

27:18

will forget about it and then six

27:20

months later it'll be up for like

27:22

a literary award and I'm like oh

27:24

let me see if I have that

27:26

and I can go back to the

27:28

spreadsheet and find it because otherwise it's

27:30

like my brain cannot obviously handle. So

27:33

there's all these different tabs we do

27:35

a reading challenge in the stack so

27:37

there's a tab for the reading challenge

27:39

for the year anyways. It's a great

27:41

fun. I also use story graph which

27:43

is an alternative to good reads which

27:45

is an alternative to good reads which

27:47

is, which is a good reads which

27:50

is a good reads which is, which

27:52

is a good reads, which is a

27:54

good reads, which is a good reads,

27:56

which is, which is, which is a

27:58

good reads, which is, which is, which

28:00

is, which is, which is, which is,

28:02

which is, which is, which is, which

28:05

is a, which is, which is, which

28:07

is a, which is, That's much more

28:09

reading tracking, but also there's tabs where

28:11

you can do reading challenges. So you

28:13

can set up a challenge. Maybe like

28:15

if your book club wants to set

28:17

up a challenge and you can put

28:20

all 12 of the books in and

28:22

then you can say like which ones

28:24

you've read and you can see what

28:26

other people are doing. And that's really

28:28

fun. I also use Goodreads still too,

28:30

mainly because I know that bookstores use

28:32

the ratings on Goodreads to help. kind

28:35

of know what's exciting and what they

28:37

should be stocking. And so I want

28:39

to make sure that I'm like part

28:41

of that process as someone who cares

28:43

deeply about making sure books are getting

28:45

into people's hands. And then I also

28:47

have a little notes app where I

28:50

have all the books I've just finished

28:52

just the title to know if I've

28:54

actually posted a review about them on

28:56

my Instagram or not. So every time

28:58

I finish a book I have to

29:00

go to four places to enter information,

29:02

which is why I'm like it's getting

29:04

out of control. I don't love it

29:07

there and it's just an extra thing

29:09

but at the moment I haven't quite

29:11

made the maybe I'm done in 2025

29:13

maybe that's the plan. Well I'm impressed

29:15

that you have your data so many

29:17

and I'm very jealous because I did

29:19

not start tracking my books until 2020

29:22

and I'm so sad about it I'm

29:24

like how many books did I read

29:26

in my life? How can I go

29:28

back? I mean I don't know what

29:30

I read when I was like 27

29:32

like it's been a while. So I

29:34

started my tracker in 2016 when I

29:37

started that like 12 books in the

29:39

year. So I have previous titles on

29:41

my good reads that I read from

29:43

a long time ago, but I don't

29:45

have those entered in the tracker because

29:47

I don't have years. I was like,

29:49

I don't know. I still might go

29:52

back because there are books that I

29:54

read and loved that are not in

29:56

my tracker that I sort of wish

29:58

were. So I don't know. But you

30:00

can go back. I think tracking is

30:02

like a relatively, I don't want to

30:04

say new, like not new like this

30:06

year, but like in 2010, no one

30:09

was like tracking. they're reading like I

30:11

think some people were I know people

30:13

were people who have grandmothers who like

30:15

when they died they found journals that

30:17

were just like lists of every book

30:19

they ever read I know I thought

30:21

that was so cool and like the

30:24

year they read them so I think

30:26

some people were but I do think

30:28

you're right that was not like as

30:30

gamified and like social media I think

30:32

I got on good reads in about

30:34

2009 and so that's when I started

30:36

sort of keeping track but I didn't

30:39

start the spreadsheet till 20 I think

30:41

I started the spreadsheet in 2018, actually.

30:43

Well, your spreadsheet sounds amazing. I may

30:45

have to check out your Patreon just

30:47

for the spreadsheet. It's worth it. I'm

30:49

telling you, it is the greatest part

30:51

of my life. Every time I finish

30:54

a book, I'm like, I get to

30:56

put it in the tracker. That is

30:58

amazing. All right, well, reading mediums, you

31:00

mentioned, you like audio, you like Kindle,

31:02

you like paper. I mostly read on

31:04

paper. I'm like weird, and I'm mix

31:06

of buying stuff. well I'm in Broward

31:08

County Florida and like we have a

31:11

great like people from not from here

31:13

apparently like can get into our system

31:15

but we have like I can get

31:17

almost anything I want on paper pretty

31:19

quickly I mean there's a few really

31:21

hot titles where there's a decent-sized waiting

31:23

list but I actually think it's better

31:26

than most places so I feel spoiled

31:28

that way but yeah how do you

31:30

choose a format for a given book

31:32

although I guess I know you get

31:34

a lot of book sent so that

31:36

might skew the data here. I also

31:38

love my library. I mostly use my

31:41

library for audio books and e-books. Like

31:43

I've never, I can say, I have

31:45

purchased some audio books, but I have

31:47

never purchased an e-book in my life.

31:49

Except for, that's not true. One, an

31:51

independent author who I love. I bought

31:53

her romance novel. But other than that,

31:56

I've never purchased because I have a

31:58

library. system that I love as well.

32:00

As far as what I'm going to

32:02

read, if I'm making the decision for

32:04

myself, I'm usually reading fiction on paper

32:06

or with my eyes, whether that's Kindle

32:08

or physical book. And if it's pretty

32:10

dense nonfiction, the same, I'm usually listening

32:13

to memoirs or very narrative nonfiction. That's

32:15

just how my brain works. But sometimes

32:17

I'm reading a book. physical and Kindle

32:19

at the same time or audio and

32:21

physical at the same time. Not literally

32:23

at the same time, but like I

32:25

might be making dinner and I put

32:28

the audio book on and then when

32:30

I sit down to read at night,

32:32

I go find the book and I

32:34

go find what page I'm on. I

32:36

jokingly say that I'm a one book

32:38

pony, which just means that I can

32:40

pretty much only read one book at

32:43

a time. That's not exactly true because

32:45

I can do one on audio and

32:47

one. with my eyes, but I'm not,

32:49

you'll, it would be so rare that

32:51

I would actually be actively reading two

32:53

different books at the same time in

32:55

the same format. I pretty much just

32:58

power through one as I go. I

33:00

know people who have books in different

33:02

rooms, like their nighttime book in their

33:04

bedroom is one book, and then they

33:06

have a book that they read like

33:08

on the couch in the evenings or

33:10

in the mornings, not me. It's one

33:13

book all day, until it's done. I

33:15

was going to ask you that question.

33:17

That's so interesting. I have to have

33:19

one fiction and one nonfiction at all

33:21

times. Generally, like I don't go beyond

33:23

that, but like for me, they're such

33:25

different like reading. They're almost like not

33:27

related. Like, yeah. How do you decide

33:30

which one you're going to read? Like,

33:32

yeah. How do you decide which one

33:34

you're going to read? Like, yeah. How

33:36

do you decide which one you're going

33:38

to read? Like, like, at lunch or

33:40

like when I'm going to bed or

33:42

whatever, but yeah. What kind of nonfiction?

33:45

A mix of stuff, but some memoirs,

33:47

a lot of like personal development, like,

33:49

but like more on the like, I

33:51

don't know, like Cal Newport or like,

33:53

well, Laura Vanderkam is the co-host of

33:55

this podcast. and I got into her

33:57

stuff for a reason, I love it,

34:00

but authors in that realm, which I

34:02

often end up reading also kind of

34:04

for work since I have this podcast

34:06

and then best laid plans. So yeah.

34:08

All right, but back to you. Sorry.

34:10

Podcasters can't help themselves from asking nosy

34:12

questions. I like cannot. I've been biting

34:15

my tongue and asking you so many

34:17

questions so that I had to get

34:19

those off though. I'm done. I'm done.

34:21

And you saw my face when you

34:23

said you only read one book at

34:25

once and I think I was shocked

34:27

because I was just like, oh, she's

34:29

a reading person and she likes to

34:32

just power through one. I never would

34:34

have thought that. So very interesting. I'm

34:36

going to pivot a little bit because

34:38

I want to talk about reading practices

34:40

with them now and... What are tips

34:42

for cultivating a reading habit in your

34:44

children? We read every day at bedtime.

34:47

They don't read yet. And I am

34:49

really nervous to pressure them to read.

34:51

Like I've been very sort of hands

34:53

off in reading. Like I think other

34:55

parents are probably more active at this

34:57

age with reading, but I'm like too

34:59

scared. For them to like resent it

35:02

because it is my job So I

35:04

think I'm maybe like over correcting the

35:06

other way like they know all their

35:08

letters They know all their sounds but

35:10

when I try to have them like

35:12

put it together and then they're like

35:14

I don't want to I'm like okay.

35:17

Don't do it. It's fine. Nobody who

35:19

reads readings for losers. It's fine. But

35:21

they love books they love books like

35:23

they get so they each get to

35:25

pick a book at bed time that

35:27

I read to them. And if we're

35:29

really running late, sometimes we have to

35:31

agree on one book only, like all

35:34

three of us have to agree on

35:36

one book, and that is always like

35:38

the worst. Like it's like, I want

35:40

to pick a book, this one, pick

35:42

the book, this one. Like, if we

35:44

can get the two books in, or

35:46

a bonus book, that's always great. So

35:49

mostly we read picture books, but recently

35:51

we started reading a chapter, a night

35:53

from sometimes from certain chapter chapter books,

35:55

on audio, they were really into that

35:57

on longer drives. Trevor Noah has this

35:59

great new book called Into the Uncut

36:01

Grass. It's really small. It's four, like,

36:04

teeny, tiny chapters. But it's so, I'm,

36:06

like, obsessed with it. I'm telling everybody

36:08

it's so good. And they just really,

36:10

I mean, they just really like to

36:12

be read to and they like to

36:14

ask questions and tell me about what

36:16

they're seeing, what's happening in the book.

36:19

No, I mean at this point now,

36:21

they like to pick books when we

36:23

go to the bookstore. And one of

36:25

the things I do is every time

36:27

I go on a trip, because I

36:29

have to travel for work, is I

36:31

always bring back a book for each

36:33

person. And so that's like a fun

36:36

way for each person. And so that's

36:38

like a fun way for me to

36:40

find new books, because I'm usually going

36:42

to bookstores. And we go to the

36:44

library a lot. So that's also a

36:46

good way to discover new authors. And

36:48

usually when we go, everyone gets to

36:51

pick two or three books, including me.

36:53

So we end up with, and if

36:55

my husband goes, you know, another, so

36:57

we end up with like eight to

36:59

12 books for like kids books for

37:01

a library trip, and then that's enough

37:03

to kind of rotate. And if we

37:06

find any favorites, we might go back

37:08

and see if that author has other,

37:10

you know, so the same way that

37:12

I do with adult books, sort of

37:14

just recommendations. We had the best library

37:16

routine last year because one of my

37:18

kids had a piano teacher that was

37:21

like right by the library. We would

37:23

go every week and I'm like, that's

37:25

why we don't have library books anymore

37:27

because we just switched piano teachers. Oh.

37:29

But I agree that regular visitation is

37:31

so helpful. But I agree that regular

37:33

visitation is so helpful. And unlike me,

37:35

like when I go to the library,

37:38

I'm just picking up my holds, you

37:40

know, but with them, I want them

37:42

to browse and like choose. So that

37:44

really makes. But yes with them we

37:46

go sit in like the little kids

37:48

room and they get to pick. And

37:50

it's so funny, when we go to

37:53

the bookstore, they'll pull books off the

37:55

shelf like they're at the library, but

37:57

at the library, they tell you to

37:59

just leave them on the table and

38:01

the librarians put them away. But at

38:03

the bookstore, I'm like, where did you

38:05

get that? We have to put it

38:08

back. Like, it's like different vibes. All

38:10

right, we're going to take one more

38:12

break and we are going to be

38:14

back with some tips on maybe fitting

38:16

and more reading or getting out of

38:18

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are optional features. I

42:00

definitely have my own reading slump in

42:02

the end of 2024, kind of like

42:04

started with some stressful stuff around August

42:06

and had trouble recovering. And I know

42:08

that it's a common like New Year's

42:10

goal for people to read more. So

42:12

what would you suggest for someone either

42:15

in a reading slump or who is

42:17

trying to build up the habits of

42:19

reading more? And maybe those are two

42:21

different things. Yeah, I say those are

42:23

two really different things to me. I'm

42:25

going to start with the reading slump.

42:27

Now, more than ever, pick up things

42:29

that you really want to read. Not

42:32

that thing that you bought last time

42:34

at the store or the thing that

42:36

the hold is going to be up

42:38

on soon from the library. That book

42:40

that you have been dying to read

42:42

that everyone is talking about that you're

42:44

so excited about. That is the only

42:46

thing that we'll get you out of

42:48

a reading slump. The other option is

42:51

to avoid your books like the plague.

42:53

Watch every TV show that you've ever

42:55

wanted to watch until you feel like

42:57

you're excited. to read books again. I

42:59

had a horrible reading slump when Love

43:01

is Blind was on and I was

43:03

like, I gotta read, I gotta read.

43:05

And I was like, you know what?

43:07

I'm just gonna watch All of Love

43:10

is Blind. And I did and I

43:12

bounced back with my best reading month

43:14

ever. So like it just, I think

43:16

like, okay, you're in a reading slump.

43:18

Great, who cares? You'll go back, you

43:20

know, like even when I was in

43:22

a reading slump, which is different for

43:24

like. I had like two or three

43:26

this year, actually it was a really

43:29

hard reading year for me. But you

43:31

get out of it, you bounce back,

43:33

something exciting comes along, and it takes

43:35

you right out of it. As far

43:37

as wanting to read more, so this

43:39

is still my reading goal every single

43:41

year. I started doing this about four

43:43

years ago, and I do it every

43:46

single year. My only reading goal is

43:48

to read 10 pages a day. That

43:50

is my only goal, and I know

43:52

it sounds crazy. That's the goal I

43:54

set for 2025. Like, it's already been

43:56

announced on the podcast, so no one

43:58

will think I call. That's hilarious. Okay,

44:00

keep going. That's hilarious. Actually, it was

44:02

10 minutes for me, but keep going.

44:05

10 minutes. Okay, so I'm a slow

44:07

reader. Ten minutes will get me like

44:09

three pages, and I'm like, I can't

44:11

be effective. Ten pages for me is

44:13

probably about more like 20 minutes of

44:15

reading time. And I think it's a

44:17

perfect goal because it's quantifiable. It is

44:19

easy to achieve. It's not a pain.

44:21

not even running a mile, right? It's

44:24

not difficult. It's just a matter of

44:26

sitting down and doing it. When I

44:28

started reading 10 pages a day as

44:30

a goal, I started reading even more

44:32

than what I was already reading a

44:34

lot because it makes it a practice.

44:36

And if you do the math-ish, we're

44:38

talking about like 3,650 pages in the

44:40

year, which is approximately gonna put you,

44:43

let's say every book of 300 pages,

44:45

like you're looking at 10 to 12

44:47

books in the year. But the real

44:49

reason that this goal I think it

44:51

worked for me so well is that

44:53

once you start reading 10 pages, you're

44:55

not going to want to stop at

44:57

10 pages, right? Like if you're picking

45:00

the right books, if the books are

45:02

exciting to you, if it's things you

45:04

want to read, you're going to sit

45:06

down for those 10 pages and you're

45:08

going to be like, I have a

45:10

little extra time, I'm going to read

45:12

more. And like some days I truly

45:14

only read 10 pages. I only get

45:16

to like three pages or zero pages.

45:19

I mean, it happens. But then some

45:21

days, I read 200 pages in the

45:23

day. But the thing is like having

45:25

the goal be low and achievable, I

45:27

think is really important, especially if you're

45:29

trying to get back into reading or

45:31

you are just like, I want to

45:33

read a little bit more, but I'm

45:35

not really a reader. Something like that

45:38

is really doable. I also think one

45:40

book a month is also like a

45:42

doable goal or depending on how much

45:44

you read, maybe it's one a week.

45:46

Whatever, but like something that's super duper

45:48

quantifiable did I do this? Yes or

45:50

no because like reading more not Like

45:52

how do you know if you're reading

45:54

more totally? Too big. So yeah, that's

45:57

what I was saying and then the

45:59

other thing I say for people who

46:01

like are struggling to read or like

46:03

finding time is to, I mean, I'm

46:05

not as intense to be like, put

46:07

it on your calendar, but if that's

46:09

like, I don't know, some people, you

46:11

know, some people put their workouts on

46:14

their calendar, some people put having sex

46:16

with their partner on their calendar. So

46:18

like, depending on who you are, maybe

46:20

that's helpful. But to me, I think

46:22

just when it's time to read. going

46:24

on airplane mode is huge making sure

46:26

you have your snacks and beverages your

46:28

blankets you have gone to the bathroom

46:30

all the things that are the things

46:33

that will make you get up and

46:35

stop reading make sure you've taken care

46:37

of those things first and then sit

46:39

down to read I think that's really

46:41

really really really really really really important

46:43

if you have young kids and like

46:45

maybe you're trying to sneak in reading

46:47

when they're out of the house maybe

46:49

they're with their sitter or maybe they're

46:52

with your partner, maybe they're at school.

46:54

What I do is I have a

46:56

do not disturb mode that is for

46:58

sort of reading time that allows for

47:00

those people to get through to me.

47:02

Otherwise, nobody else can. So if you're

47:04

worried about that, like you can customize

47:06

your phone to give you a do

47:08

not disturb that like allows for any

47:11

people that you might need to talk

47:13

to, you know, so and you can

47:15

have like a special one that's just

47:17

for reading. Yes, reading mode. I love

47:19

it. Well, we usually do a love

47:21

of the week, which is like you

47:23

named something that makes you happy this

47:25

week But I thought it might be

47:27

more fun for you to share as

47:30

of now This is mean but your

47:32

top three books of 2024. Can you

47:34

or just three books you loved in

47:36

2024? There you go. I can I

47:38

can share three of my favorite books

47:40

My problem is that this year there

47:42

were two books that were sort of

47:44

like the most beloved books by everybody

47:47

in the world and like they're up

47:49

for all the awards. And so I'm

47:51

just gonna say them because I too

47:53

loved these books, but everybody's talking about

47:55

them and so I feel like let's

47:57

not waste time with them. One is

47:59

called James by Percival Everett and the

48:01

other is called Martyr by Kave Akbar.

48:03

Love, love, love, love. Okay. I'm with

48:06

everybody. They're great. Done. My favorite nonfiction

48:08

book so far or like overall this

48:10

year is a book called Challenger by

48:12

Adam Higginbotham. disaster in 1986. It is

48:14

so riveting. It's one of those books

48:16

where you know the ending and you're

48:18

still like, what's going to happen? Like,

48:20

how did this space shift take off?

48:22

It's so fascinating. I will do one

48:25

small disclaimer. I did not think this,

48:27

but a lot of people told me

48:29

that the first section they thought was

48:31

a little bit slow because it's a

48:33

little bit sciencey. So if you're a

48:35

person who's like, should I keep going?

48:37

So that's a book I loved this

48:39

year. He also wrote the Chernobal book

48:41

that got turned into that Chernobal TV

48:44

show on HBO. The book's called Midnight

48:46

in Chernobal. He's great. Another book that

48:48

I loved this year is a book

48:50

called Colored Television by Danzi Senna. She's

48:52

so funny and I just absolutely am

48:54

obsessed with her. It's about this woman

48:56

named Jane. It's a novel and Jane

48:58

is a professor and she's trying to

49:01

write her her second book, but it's

49:03

a failure and it's about Jane is

49:05

mixed race and it's about being mixed

49:07

and she's like, I'm gonna sell out,

49:09

I'm gonna go to Hollywood. She goes

49:11

to write the great like mixed TV

49:13

show and it's just all about her

49:15

extremely bad decisions. Dancy is like an

49:17

author who writes main characters who a

49:20

lot of people think are unlikable. I

49:22

love them, but they make bad choices.

49:24

Like the whole book, you're just like,

49:26

Jane, girl, do not do that. Don't,

49:28

Jane, I hate this for you. And

49:30

then the last book I'll pick is,

49:32

let's see, I did nonfiction, I did

49:34

fiction. Do you want me to do

49:36

essays or do you want me to

49:39

do memoir? Oh, let's have a memoir.

49:41

I need a memoir. This memoir is

49:43

called Another Word for Love for Love

49:45

by Carvel Wallace. It's so good. Carville

49:47

Wallace is a black, queer person from

49:49

the Bay Area. Or actually, they're from

49:51

the East Coast. They live in LA.

49:53

They live in the Bay Area. The

49:55

first part of the book is about

49:58

their childhood and sort of the trauma

50:00

that they experienced their mother dealt with,

50:02

like, houselessness. And it's a lot of

50:04

kind of difficult, heavy stuff. And then.

50:06

As the book goes on, Carvel sort

50:08

of imagines these other possibilities around healing

50:10

and redemption and reconciliation. It's just so

50:12

beautifully written. It's so smart. It's so

50:15

tender. When I first started the book,

50:17

I was sort of like, this is

50:19

really good writing. Like, this feels like

50:21

every other sort of trauma memoir. And

50:23

as you keep going, you're just like.

50:25

Whoa, I am blown away by the

50:27

way that this memoir was transformed, by

50:29

the way that this author has transformed

50:31

their thinking. It's just so powerful and

50:34

so beautiful. So that's another word for

50:36

love by Carvel Wallace. That sounds awesome.

50:38

All right, maybe one of those will

50:40

get me out of my slump. Oh

50:42

my gosh. Tracy, this has been so,

50:44

so delightful. So remind our listeners where

50:46

they can find you, including that very

50:48

tantalizing spreadsheet you mentioned. Yes, okay. So

50:50

you can find me. at the Stacks

50:53

pod on Instagram and the podcast is

50:55

called The Stacks. It comes out every

50:57

Wednesday. So wherever you got your podcasts.

50:59

And then if you want to support

51:01

the work that I do, I have

51:03

a patron. It's patron.com/the Stacks. If you

51:05

join in December or January, you have

51:07

access to the reading tracker. It'll get

51:09

sent to you. It'll be posted sometime

51:12

in December, sometime soon. And then yeah.

51:14

That's that. I have a website, the

51:16

Stack Podcast, I've got all the places.

51:18

If you go to any of the

51:20

places, you'll be able to find all

51:22

the other places, because that's how internet

51:24

works. So yes, the Stacks, find it.

51:26

Oh my gosh, thank you so much

51:29

for coming on. Tracy, this was a

51:31

blast. Thank you for having me. Well,

51:33

that was great. Thank you so much,

51:35

Sarah and Tracy, for that discussion of

51:37

reading. So this week's question comes from

51:39

a listener listener. who says you both

51:41

seem to take weekends away with your

51:43

husband's. I mean, I hear about this

51:45

less from Laura, but it seems like

51:48

it happens. My question is, how do

51:50

you deal with child care in this

51:52

situations? It seems like your nanny sometimes

51:54

covers, does she sleep at your house?

51:56

What do you pay for the weekend

51:58

relative to an hour? rate, do your

52:00

grandparents ever cover? With a big family

52:02

I now have three kids under six.

52:04

Do you ever split up the kids

52:07

to make it easier on the child

52:09

care provider? This person says that she

52:11

and her husband were pretty good about

52:13

this when they had one kid, maybe

52:15

even two, but three seems like nobody

52:17

wants to take over for 48 hours.

52:19

So Sarah, what is your answer there?

52:21

Yeah, so we do usually hire our

52:23

nanny to do this. I'm not going

52:26

to go into total payment specifics, but

52:28

you can pay a lower rate for

52:30

overnights. You just have to legally make

52:32

sure that you're at least paying a

52:34

minimum wage. So you can't be like,

52:36

when the kids are sleeping, it's free.

52:38

Like they're so working and you have

52:40

to be paying something. So we worked

52:42

it out. It's not the full, full

52:45

regular rate, but it's definitely extra above

52:47

what she would get in a normal

52:49

week and meets those criteria. She will

52:51

often stay at our house. because it's

52:53

just easier if the kids have activities

52:55

or she'll take them to her house

52:57

for a night and we have in

52:59

the past also had grandparents help not

53:02

by sending all three there but like

53:04

sending one kid with the grandparents and

53:06

then her taking the other two and

53:08

the other kind of share the load

53:10

option would be like if one friend

53:12

had like maybe your oldest has a

53:14

really close friend and they could just

53:16

have a sleepover. Because the older kids

53:18

get the easier it is to just

53:21

kind of host another kid So it's

53:23

not a huge burden for you know

53:25

your next-door neighbor with a similar age

53:27

kid to take your 12-year-old for example

53:29

So yeah, I mean I love going

53:31

away with my husband. We try to

53:33

do it twice a year So it's

53:35

not like this is a happening all

53:37

the time kind of a thing, but

53:40

I just think it's so good for

53:42

our relationship when we do it and

53:44

I look forward to them and want

53:46

to keep doing it Well, I can

53:48

say we don't do it that frequently.

53:50

I mean, we've done three since Henry

53:52

was born, and those have all been

53:54

in the last year. So I guess

53:56

we're getting better at it now as

53:59

the kids are getting older, but we

54:01

need to hire overnight coverage. But we

54:03

had overnight coverage, you know, we have

54:05

it during the week as an option

54:07

because that's always something we've built into

54:09

our agreements with our nannies that they

54:11

would be available for that because I

54:13

travel for work, my husband travels for

54:16

work, we need coverage that could be

54:18

overnight. So we tend actually to hire

54:20

different people though for the weekends just

54:22

as a matter of keeping hours reasonable.

54:24

You know we have other people that

54:26

we have hired for the weekend and

54:28

you just you know negotiate a rate

54:30

like anything else like this for the

54:32

hours that we assume the kids are

54:35

awake and then this is the overnight

54:37

rate and. That's how you do it.

54:39

But yeah, I totally sympathize that it

54:41

is hard to get anyone to cover

54:43

for large families. You know, grandparents may

54:45

have been fine with one kid, but

54:47

five kids makes it a little harder

54:49

on anyone to manage the chaos, even

54:51

if some of the kids are older.

54:54

And so yeah, that is the kind

54:56

of a drawback of the larger family

54:58

is the ability for you guys to

55:00

get away together. This is actually the

55:02

hardest thing. It is not hard for

55:04

one parent. to get away. And so

55:06

I often incur fit together. Thanks for

55:08

listening. You can find me, Sarah, at

55:10

the shoebox.com or at the underscore shoebox

55:13

on Instagram. And you can find me,

55:15

Laura, at Lauravandercam.com. This has been the

55:17

best of both worlds podcast. Please join

55:19

us next time for more on making

55:21

work and life work together. This

55:35

is Ashley Echinetti from the Ben

55:37

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436. Download Hexasort today on the

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by Lion Studios. The original Hexasorting

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Hexasorting game. Download today. The

56:36

Unshakable's podcast is kicking off season

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2 with an episode you won't

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want to miss. Join host Ben

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Walter, CEO of Chase for business,

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as he welcomes a very special

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guest, chairman and CEO of JP

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Morgan Chase, Jamie Diamond. Hear about

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the challenges facing small businesses and

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some of the uh-oh moments Jamie

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has overcome. Did you know that

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parents rank financial literacy as the

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number one? Most mobile app is

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available for select mobile devices may

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apply. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, N.A.

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Member F.C. Copyright 2025. J.P. Morgan

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Chase and Company. Did you know

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that parents rank financial literacy as

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the number one most difficult life

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skill to teach? Meet Green Light,

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the debit card and money app

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Try Green Light risk free today

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at Green Light.com/I-Hart. Okay, so we

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all need to get away from

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the world sometimes. Well, in the

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all-new 2025, Nissan Murano, you don't

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Murano is the getaway. Just picture

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Just picture it. The Bo's premium

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as the Morano's massaging leather-appointed seats

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melt away. Yeah, that's a real

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Morano today. Bo's and massaging leather-appointed

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seats are optional features. It's tax

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season, and by now I know

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we're all a bit tired of

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numbers, but here's an important one

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you need to hear. 16.5 billion

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dollars. That's how much money in

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refunds the IRS flagged for possible

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identity fraud last year. Here's another

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20%. That's the overall increase in

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identity theft related to tax fraud

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in 2024 alone. But it's not

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all grim news. Here's a good

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