0:00

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with

0:02

one of six collectibles and your

0:04

choice of a Big Mac or

0:06

ten-piece McNuggets with spicy netherflame sauce

0:08

now available with a Minecraft movie

0:10

meal. I participate in McDonald's for

0:12

a limited time on Minecraft movie

0:14

only in theaters. Hello

0:31

and welcome back to Beyond the To-Do

0:34

List, a podcast about productivity. I'm your

0:36

host, Eric Fisher, and I'm excited to

0:38

share with you this conversation I had

0:41

with Elizabeth Lottardo. She's a leadership expert

0:43

and the author of Leading Yourself. Find

0:45

more joy? meaning and opportunities in the

0:48

job you already have. In this conversation,

0:50

we're talking all about how to find

0:52

purpose and fulfillment in your current job,

0:55

even when your circumstances aren't perfect. We're

0:57

talking about the power of mindset, how

0:59

to reframe your beliefs to create more

1:02

joy at work, how to focus

1:04

on small moments of impact that

1:06

can provide a sense of purpose.

1:08

Elizabeth also shares why the quiet

1:10

quitting trend is more about self-protection

1:13

than disengagement, how to handle those

1:15

inevitable workplace workplace changes. and how

1:17

to set goals to help you

1:19

take control of your career. So

1:21

if you're looking for practical strategies

1:23

to bring more meaning and energy

1:26

to your work, this conversation with

1:28

Elizabeth Lottardo is right for

1:30

you. Well, it is my privilege to

1:32

welcome to the show Elizabeth

1:35

Lottardo, Elizabeth, welcome to Beyond

1:37

the To-Do list. Thanks for

1:39

having me. I'm excited to talk

1:41

about this because your new book,

1:43

leading yourself, finding more joy, meaning,

1:45

and opportunities in the job you

1:47

already have is amazing. And by

1:50

the way, this sub-subtite, is that

1:52

what they call it a sub-subtitle?

1:54

I don't know. There's a parentheses.

1:56

It's like, so then that's the

1:58

title and then. it says parentheses

2:00

despite imperfect bosses, weird economies, lethargic

2:02

co-workers, annoying systems, and too many

2:05

deliverables. I think we can all

2:07

relate to all of those things.

2:09

The research would certainly suggest them.

2:11

I did not pull it out

2:13

of thin air. Those things are

2:15

ever present in almost every workplace.

2:17

Talk about keyword stuffing the title

2:19

too. In a good way. I

2:21

didn't realize that was going to

2:23

be a benefit when I did

2:25

it, but it definitely has been.

2:28

Yeah, so you say, I mean,

2:30

again, here's the key, the key,

2:32

I kind of emphasized it when

2:34

I read it, is in the

2:36

job you already have, and a

2:38

lot of people, especially right now,

2:40

are looking for new positions and

2:42

new jobs, however, that doesn't mean

2:44

that you can't. make the, you

2:46

can not just make the most

2:48

of what you already have, but

2:50

even thrive is what I think

2:53

you would say, and you can

2:55

find purpose in your current, you

2:57

know, air quotes, normal job. Absolutely.

2:59

I wanted to write a book

3:01

about normal jobs because I feel

3:03

like there are so many books

3:05

for people who work at Google

3:07

or the CEO of a startup

3:09

and the vast majority of us

3:11

have zero direct reports. We work

3:13

in a normal typical corporate job

3:15

that isn't all that inspiring. Yet

3:18

we have this human drive for

3:20

a purpose for opportunities for connection.

3:22

So how can we fulfill that

3:24

inside of these pretty average circumstances?

3:26

Yeah, and you even kind of

3:28

refer to this as You know,

3:30

the starting point here as managing

3:32

the space between your ears, that

3:34

it has a lot to do

3:36

with your perspective and how you

3:38

define satisfaction and how you see

3:40

the task list or the job

3:43

description versus what it really is.

3:45

I mean have been there, a

3:47

lot of people have been there.

3:49

You even talk about how, you

3:51

know, a lot of us, we

3:53

get excited when we find our

3:55

first job. and then kind of

3:57

feel disillusioned months in you know

3:59

even years later if we're still

4:01

in that and have kind of

4:03

micro promoted within or whatever. So

4:05

how do you define purpose at

4:08

work? Let's start there so that

4:10

we can kind of get a

4:12

common ground playing field with us

4:14

here and as well as the

4:16

listeners. So to me, the way

4:18

we talk about purpose is the

4:20

bedrock for so much of corporate

4:22

angst and why people are seeking

4:24

new opportunities. purpose really came into

4:26

the foreign 2020, when the workforce

4:28

was put into self-reflection mode. We

4:30

all went home, we were by

4:33

ourselves, we had these existential crises

4:35

that typically only happened to a

4:37

small percentage of people at a

4:39

time on a global scale. And

4:41

everyone who was working was wondering,

4:43

what am I doing with my

4:45

time? Does my work matter? I'm

4:47

not sure my life is meaningful

4:49

anymore, the sort of emokid crisis

4:51

throughout the workforce, as we all

4:53

sat at home on our laptops.

4:56

And that gave rise to the

4:58

purpose movement, the seeming answer to

5:00

this need to feel impactful. But

5:02

to me, the way purposes talked

5:04

about is setting us up for

5:06

disappointments. It's talked about as this

5:08

giant, you know, noble mission, feed

5:10

the poor, this philanthropic thing. Or

5:12

it's talked about as the, I

5:14

mispronounce it every time the icky

5:16

guy, where all those circles of

5:18

what you're good at, combine with

5:21

what you love, combine with what

5:23

the world needs, combine with what

5:25

you get paid for, and it

5:27

looks so like deeply profound, and

5:29

the majority of us are not

5:31

going to have that experience. No

5:33

one's icky guy or however you

5:35

pronounce it, presents as like, data

5:37

analyst or entry level accountant, right?

5:39

We set ourselves up for failure

5:41

when we look at purpose as

5:43

this giant thing. And the path

5:46

I suggest in leading yourself is

5:48

to find small moments of purpose

5:50

and impact inside your normal job

5:52

and let those failure cup over

5:54

time and create this sense of

5:56

meaning and impact instead of seeking

5:58

this perfect confluence of circles in

6:00

some. impossible dream job scenario. Yeah

6:02

and I think to me this

6:04

finally started to click when I

6:06

didn't attach myself so much to

6:08

a title so much as like

6:11

you mentioned one of the ones

6:13

you just mentioned you know entry-level

6:15

accountant or data analyst or whatever

6:17

not to say that that those

6:19

positions can't have meaning in fact

6:21

they can but if you're looking

6:23

to be you know, data, you

6:25

know, specific data analyst, whatever job

6:27

title. And that's the goal. That's

6:29

one thing. But to be engaged

6:31

in a position, to be truly

6:33

living into or experiencing the key

6:36

for that title would be, what

6:38

if you like data? What if

6:40

that turns you on? What if

6:42

you're excited and enjoy data and

6:44

you're engaged with data? And that's

6:46

the thing. And so it's more

6:48

about... your skills and your skill

6:50

set and that's scary too because

6:52

sometimes it's like that's a whole

6:54

other world of self-doubt where it's

6:56

like am I really good at

6:58

this do I really enjoy this

7:01

especially if it's the thing I

7:03

do as a air quote job

7:05

sometimes you know some people say

7:07

oh man if you just be

7:09

a broadcaster all day well if

7:11

that's the only thing you're doing

7:13

then you got to tread lightly

7:15

because there's a whole other aspect

7:17

to it in terms of making

7:19

it something that is a career

7:21

It can quickly send you into

7:24

an existential crisis contemplating questions like

7:26

these. So I want to approach

7:28

them in a softer way. Let's

7:30

use our entry-level accountant example. You

7:32

mentioned that job can be very

7:34

purpose driven. Absolutely it can. Entry

7:36

level accountants keep people out of

7:38

jail. They make sure payroll gets

7:40

paid. They make sure that the

7:42

expenses of the business are set

7:44

up in a way that enables

7:46

the business to grow instead of

7:49

collapse. These roles are hugely meaningful.

7:51

The challenges we look at them

7:53

to your point from the title.

7:55

Say like, oh, that doesn't really,

7:57

you know, sound all that exciting.

7:59

Or we look at them from

8:01

the... to do list and all

8:03

of these disjointed action items. And

8:05

both of those lens remove us

8:07

from the ripple effect this work

8:09

actually has. And we know that

8:11

when we tap into our ripple

8:14

effect, when we see where our

8:16

emails go, what decisions are made

8:18

as the results of the data

8:20

we're pulling, who is impacted real

8:22

people by the work we're doing

8:24

on a daily basis. That's what

8:26

starts to fill our purpose cup.

8:28

It's not some magical title or

8:30

even the perfect job. It is

8:32

the through on to knowing that

8:34

these things on our punch list,

8:36

they matter to somebody. Yeah, it's

8:39

that impact that we have and

8:41

in a way that's how we

8:43

create the meaning versus find the

8:45

meaning as you suggest we should

8:47

go about doing. Absolutely. And we

8:49

see some interesting data from the

8:51

Great Resignation. I mentioned 2020 was

8:53

sort of the real peak of

8:55

the purpose movement. The Great Resignation,

8:57

this big talent shift in 2020

8:59

to 2021. was a fascinating thing

9:01

to witness as an organizational psychologist,

9:04

watching the majority of people leave

9:06

their job in pursuit of a

9:08

more meaningful career was a shift

9:10

that we have never seen before,

9:12

a scale that we had never

9:14

seen before. But what we found

9:16

is that two years later, there

9:18

was a big study done by

9:20

Harvard on this, the majority of

9:22

people who left. their position during

9:24

the great resignation reported two years

9:26

later that they were better off

9:29

at their old job and that

9:31

they left their job too quickly.

9:33

So what does that tell us

9:35

this drastic, you know, I'm going

9:37

to pick up all my stuff

9:39

and go find my purpose approach.

9:41

It doesn't work. What does work

9:43

is to create it and no

9:45

job is perfect, but most jobs

9:47

do have an impact when you

9:49

look for it. And that's not

9:52

to say that we don't find

9:54

ourselves in career positions that have

9:56

incurable and then again is up

9:58

to you to decipher in your

10:00

place and time that you're at.

10:02

But there are some, you know,

10:04

hey, the culture is not gonna

10:06

change. That manager is not gonna

10:08

change. They're not gonna promote me.

10:10

There are all, we've all come

10:12

up against those, but we question

10:14

whether or not it's something that.

10:17

can be fixed or not. You

10:19

also talk about it as, you

10:21

know, we filter our beliefs that

10:23

the reality of the position may

10:25

not be true. In other words,

10:27

I think this is one of

10:29

the things that you were getting

10:31

at here with the 2020 is

10:33

everybody had this kind of pause

10:35

moment and the questions couldn't be

10:37

ignored. It was, what is the

10:39

reality of where I'm at right

10:42

now and where the world is

10:44

right now and what the company

10:46

is right now? To reckon with

10:48

that is a scary thing on

10:50

a global scale. And to me,

10:52

what sits beneath it and to

10:54

your point of we're all informed

10:56

by our own beliefs is a

10:58

couple of things. First, nobody's posting

11:00

their existential crisis on LinkedIn, right?

11:02

We're all talking about how meaningful

11:04

and joyful and honored we are

11:07

to be at our jobs, the

11:09

increase in hyperbolic language. on social

11:11

media is astounding and it makes

11:13

all of us feel like crap

11:15

about our real lives. Secondly, this

11:17

notion of what is, I have

11:19

a category chart in the book

11:21

that is differentiating between imperfect and

11:23

like kind of annoying behaviors in

11:25

a workplace versus garbage behaviors, like

11:27

pretty bad, especially at scale and

11:29

abusive behaviors. And we don't have

11:32

a lot of data on where

11:34

the nuance lies, and we only

11:36

evaluate things through our own experiences,

11:38

which are biased. If you worked

11:40

for a completely toxic jerk before

11:42

you landed in your job, that's

11:44

pretty meh. You're going to feel

11:46

differently than a person who worked

11:48

for a great leader who landed

11:50

in a job that's pretty meh.

11:52

So it's important to know what

11:54

is my backstory. that I'm bringing

11:57

into this and how is that

11:59

coloring the way I'm evaluating this

12:01

current opportunity? Yeah, and even in

12:03

the book you say something along

12:05

the lines of that if you're

12:07

looking for evidence that your job

12:09

is miserable, you're going to find

12:11

it. And you talk about the

12:13

Bader-Myenhof phenomenon and how people use

12:15

that. like mental trickery to basically

12:17

they see one thing and then

12:20

like when you see a car

12:22

and then you see it everywhere

12:24

you buy a new car and

12:26

then you see that car everywhere

12:28

after you buy it. Yeah our

12:30

brain plays all these super annoying

12:32

tricks on us that unfortunately contribute

12:34

to a lot of workplace dissatisfaction.

12:36

So to your point if you

12:38

buy this car you're gonna see

12:40

it everywhere you go. If you

12:42

go into work thinking my boss

12:45

is a jerk and they're only

12:47

out to get me and I

12:49

hate them. your brain will prove

12:51

you right. We don't want to

12:53

be wrong as humans. Your brain

12:55

will say, see, they put a

12:57

typo in the email and last

12:59

week they were mad at you

13:01

for putting a typo in an

13:03

email. How unfair is that? And

13:05

they'll ignore the time your boss

13:07

said, good morning, the time your

13:10

boss said, good morning, the time

13:12

your boss said, oh, I think

13:14

you did a great job on

13:16

this, right? That's where we have

13:18

to look inward and see what

13:20

part are we playing in creating

13:22

this miserable work experience. Are we

13:24

looking for things to be bad

13:26

and unfortunate and unfair? Because if

13:28

we are, that's certainly what we're

13:30

going to find. What are some

13:32

of the practical ways that we

13:35

can shift that mindset when we

13:37

feel we're slipping into either by

13:39

our own doing or agreeing with

13:41

others who are doing it, slipping

13:43

into that negative, seeing only the

13:45

negative aspects of our job. So

13:47

I'll explain it in a way

13:49

that one of my friends who's

13:51

a therapist talks about it, and

13:53

this really made sense to me

13:55

visually. If you imagine these sort

13:57

of negative, yucky beliefs that we

14:00

get pulled in. to like a

14:02

wheelbarrow rut, like you're pushing a

14:04

wheelbarrow through the dirt. Every time

14:06

you push that wheelbarrow through the

14:08

rut, the rut gets deeper. And

14:10

over time, it's almost like the

14:12

rut, the groove in the soil

14:14

is pulling your wheelbarrow into it.

14:16

It's so deep it's almost impossible

14:18

to get out of. And if

14:20

you don't realize the rut is

14:22

there, you think nothing is wrong.

14:25

So there's a first step here

14:27

of self-awareness, but where the magic

14:29

really starts to happen is reframing

14:31

the thought pattern. And the best

14:33

way to do this is using

14:35

a brain hat called This is

14:37

My Chance. And I learned this

14:39

from a motherhood mindset coach. Her

14:41

name's Tesla Romero. But I've taken

14:43

it into my workplace practice with

14:45

her credit because it's so powerful.

14:48

And the way you do it

14:50

is you use this is my

14:52

chance to reframe an annoyance, a

14:54

frustration, a change into an opportunity.

14:56

So let's say your boss throws

14:58

another project on you at the

15:00

last minute, right? Our wheelbarrow is

15:02

like, how annoying. They have no

15:04

idea how much I have to

15:06

do, how inconsiderate. They could have

15:08

done this themselves, given it. out,

15:10

repeating that mental thought track cost

15:13

your boss nothing, but it cost

15:15

you so much because now you're

15:17

miserable. So how do you get

15:19

out of it using this is

15:21

my chance? That project gets lobbed

15:23

your way. This is my chance

15:25

to better prioritize. This is my

15:27

chance to have a tough conversation

15:29

with my boss about workload. This

15:31

is my chance to lean on

15:33

my colleagues and see how they

15:35

can support me. This is my

15:38

chance to push back and practice

15:40

setting boundaries, forcing your brain to

15:42

find an opportunity inside of a

15:44

frustrating wheelbarrow rut situation is the

15:46

only way out. And when you

15:48

do that, you're not refusing the

15:50

reality, you're not saying, this is

15:52

great, I love this project, perfect

15:54

for me, that's still present, but

15:56

you are forcing your brain to

15:58

latch onto something, and that does

16:00

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16:03

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is all you need. Well that

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works into the vision of the

18:19

wheelbarrel stuck in the mud makes

18:21

me think of when you talk

18:23

about... quiet fear that fear often

18:25

doesn't show itself as panicked activity,

18:27

flurry of activity, although it can,

18:29

it also can show up as

18:31

hesitation like stuck in the mud

18:33

literally, metaphorically literally. And that one

18:36

of the ways out of that

18:38

is overcoming those insecurities like you're

18:40

talking about, noticing that this is

18:42

a moment and having those be

18:44

moments of self-advocacy. Absolutely. None of

18:46

us are in 100% control of

18:48

our work experience. Even if you're

18:50

the CEO, you have your board

18:52

breathing down your neck, a big

18:54

group of angry shareholders. There are

18:57

tons of things outside of everybody's

18:59

control, but we always control our

19:01

response. and how we show up

19:03

the emotions we feed into and

19:05

what we do in the face

19:07

of these things. And that can

19:09

be defeating because you're recognizing so

19:11

much is out of your control

19:13

or empowering because you're giving yourself

19:15

permission to operate in the face

19:17

of it. And when it comes

19:20

to quieting fear, for me, it

19:22

never really showed up as this

19:24

like big ball of anxiousness and

19:26

heightened activity. It shows up as

19:28

playing small. and not stepping up

19:30

and not saying the hard thing

19:32

and choosing to take the safe

19:34

route instead of the route I

19:36

know is best for myself or

19:38

best for the organization. So what

19:41

I wanted to address in leading

19:43

yourself is how do you overcome

19:45

fear? not in a way that

19:47

makes you feel more fulfilled in

19:49

open stores, which is often what

19:51

we think about when we overcome

19:53

fear. Fear is designed to keep

19:55

you safe, but how can you

19:57

overcome some of these less than

19:59

helpful things that are holding you

20:01

back? How can you accurately articulate

20:04

the upside that our stupid lizard

20:06

brain likes to ignore? And how

20:08

can you do it in a

20:10

way that makes you feel more

20:12

fulfilled and open stores for you

20:14

instead of just this like... blind,

20:16

fearless, I'll do whatever I want

20:18

person. Yeah, I was going to

20:20

say, how do we build confidence,

20:22

you know, one is noticing the

20:25

opportunity in the moment and that

20:27

can sometimes, I mean, again, if

20:29

we're on autopilot or if we're

20:31

playing small and we're just kind

20:33

of passively, this is where the

20:35

quiet quitting. I hated that phrase,

20:37

I still do, but the whole

20:39

quiet quitting thing is like, okay,

20:41

nothing's gonna change, so I'm just

20:43

gonna do my bare minimum. And

20:45

there are lots of reasons people

20:48

do that, but noticing the moment

20:50

as well as then using that

20:52

to build confidence or build the

20:54

confidence ahead of time so that

20:56

when a moment arises, you can

20:58

advocate for yourself at work without

21:00

feeling like you're being pushy or

21:02

entitled. And we often overestimate the

21:04

significance of these moments to the

21:06

people in charge, right? We lay

21:09

awake at night thinking, oh, I'm

21:11

gonna say the hard thing and

21:13

the meeting and then the CEO

21:15

forgets like two minutes later. So

21:17

the first is recognizing that it

21:19

is a human phenomenon. We overestimate

21:21

our own importance. To me, one

21:23

of the most helpful hacks in

21:25

managing fear and anxiety at work

21:27

is to force myself to articulate

21:29

the upside. Our brains naturally latch

21:32

on to the risk, right? Say

21:34

you have an idea you want

21:36

to present in the big meeting.

21:38

Your brain is going to, without

21:40

any prompting from you, say, well,

21:42

look stupid, what if they hate

21:44

it, what if there's this giant

21:46

flaw in my idea that I

21:48

don't see, right, all these spinning

21:50

wheels of. It's going to turn

21:53

out terrible. Just don't do it.

21:55

You don't have to ask your

21:57

brain to do that. It is

21:59

an evolutionary function. It will do

22:01

it for you. What we know

22:03

helps with workplace satisfaction, engagement, finding

22:05

meaning at work is to force

22:07

your brain to articulate the potential

22:09

upside. You don't have to do

22:11

it. You're just giving the potential

22:14

upside a seat at the table

22:16

of decision making. So if we

22:18

go back to presenting an idea

22:20

in the big meeting, what is

22:22

the potential upside? Maybe they love

22:24

it. Maybe they think completely different

22:26

of you and they see your

22:28

strategic thinking, your creativity. What if

22:30

your boss is so relieved that

22:32

you finally brought that to the

22:34

table so they didn't have to?

22:37

What if your colleagues built on

22:39

the idea and make it even

22:41

better and it has a big

22:43

impact? What if it is taking

22:45

center stage at your next performance

22:47

review as your biggest one of

22:49

the year? What if? And again,

22:51

that doesn't mean you have to

22:53

like blindly make the decision. But

22:55

giving yourself permission to at least

22:58

acknowledge and explore potential upside can

23:00

help you feel not only more

23:02

confident in the face of making

23:04

a decision because you're not making

23:06

a fear-based one, you actually make

23:08

better decisions because instead of latching

23:10

on to one side of this

23:12

upside-down-side equation, you are objectively weighing

23:14

it. Well, and one of the

23:16

things that... has to do with

23:18

change in a position that you

23:21

feel hasn't happened or is long

23:23

overdue and you're kind of biding

23:25

your time either to exit or

23:27

biding your time to step in

23:29

and advocate. But that's not how

23:31

change always happens. Often in fact,

23:33

it's where change happens to you

23:35

or around you and it's this

23:37

uncertainty of, oh no, suddenly everything

23:39

has changed at my job and

23:42

it wasn't my choice. It was

23:44

somebody else's. Instead of advocating for

23:46

it, we're resisting it. We're on

23:48

the defense in other words. How

23:50

do you navigate that kind of

23:52

change? It's a frustrating dynamic to

23:54

be in and it happens to

23:56

everybody at some point where some

23:58

change is thrust upon you by

24:00

people. who obviously don't understand your

24:02

role, lack the context that you

24:05

do and aren't going to have

24:07

to execute, and it feels terrible.

24:09

So the first step is to

24:11

recognize this is a universal qualm.

24:13

It's not because you did anything

24:15

wrong. It's not because your organization

24:17

is a terrible place to be.

24:19

It just happens. It's part of

24:21

scale and working with other humans.

24:23

But how do you operate in

24:26

the face of it? First, recognize

24:28

you control your response. And if

24:30

this change is mandated. at a

24:32

really high level, and it's hugely

24:34

significant and probably irreversible, being bitter

24:36

and resentful only costs you. We

24:38

all remember the people who dug

24:40

their heels into the sand, who

24:42

said this was terrible, and then

24:44

it went forth anyway, and the

24:46

organization either drugged them, or fired

24:49

them. The way we respond to

24:51

these things has a big impact

24:53

on how we are perceived. And

24:55

that's not some like puppeteering mind

24:57

game, fake it. If you have

24:59

legitimate concerns, that's valid. But a

25:01

giant rarely serves you inside of

25:03

your organization. It is on you

25:05

to. put that in word, take

25:07

it home, you know, go on

25:10

a run, scream in the shower,

25:12

whatever you need to do, and

25:14

then come back in a way

25:16

that shows, hey, I'm a team

25:18

player, I'm raising these concerns because

25:20

I want the best for our

25:22

team and for our organization, and

25:24

in the event, this decision, this

25:26

change is moving forward, I'm fully

25:28

on board. It is possible to

25:30

express both disagreement and commitment. In

25:33

fact, it's a core principle of

25:35

Amazon leadership. And I think we

25:37

often fall into this false dichotomy

25:39

of we have to 100% support

25:41

the decision or completely disagree with

25:43

it. And the suggestion for leading

25:45

yourself is that space in the

25:47

middle of, hey, here's my thoughts.

25:49

I want what's best for the

25:51

organization. These are the challenges I

25:54

see. In the event, this decision

25:56

is case closed. I'm fully. committed

25:58

to moving forward. And the reality

26:00

that comes doesn't change, but your

26:02

reputation certainly does. Yeah. It all

26:04

has to do with that perspective,

26:06

I think, right? Is what you're

26:08

saying. I think that you even

26:10

refer to it in the book

26:12

as something along the lines of

26:15

controlling what you can, influencing what

26:17

you can't, and then the rest

26:19

you just let go of. Which

26:22

is defeating or empowering, depending on

26:24

how you look at it. But

26:26

I've certainly at many junctures in

26:28

my career taken decisions home and

26:30

stood about them all night and

26:32

vented too much to my friends

26:34

and family who humored me because

26:36

they like me, but I'm sure

26:38

we're not pleased to hear the

26:40

eighth point of why the reorg

26:42

was a bad idea. We pay

26:44

a steep price personally. for overattaching

26:46

to some of these things that

26:48

are maybe decisions without context, are

26:50

maybe decisions that are right for

26:52

the organization as a whole, but

26:54

make our part more challenging, decisions

26:56

that are maybe somewhere in between.

26:58

Most decisions are neither right or

27:00

wrong. They're some version of the

27:02

middle. And the ability to move

27:04

forward in the face of something

27:06

you're not 100% on board with

27:08

is a benefit to yourself before

27:10

your organization. One of the other

27:12

things you talk about in the

27:15

book is goals and I see

27:17

this kind of workplace change, especially

27:19

when it's not something you've advocated

27:21

for, although it also goes with

27:23

you advocating for yourself. Your goals

27:25

at work can feel like they're

27:27

interrupted when change happens without it

27:29

being something you've chosen. It feels

27:31

a little more aligned when it's

27:33

something that you've advocated for yourself.

27:35

I've made my five-year plan. I'm

27:37

going to get to this position.

27:39

I'm going to get to this

27:41

level title and this position because

27:43

that's what's currently in front of

27:45

me and I'm not looking around

27:47

me at other options. How do

27:49

goals tie into all of this

27:51

change? Goals sound like a

27:53

really exhausting topic in the face

27:55

of a lot of change. Everyone,

27:57

at least for me, is like,

28:00

oh. My goal is to survive

28:02

today. That's my goal. But we

28:04

know that when we are to

28:06

focus on short-term goals, we don't

28:08

have that long-term trajectory, we cost

28:10

ourselves a lot. So when we

28:12

think about goal setting in the

28:14

face of rapid change, in the

28:16

face of not owning 100% of

28:18

decisions, And in the face of

28:20

careers are becoming windier, right, this

28:22

this linear path is not happening

28:24

for most people for better or

28:26

worse, it becomes more challenging to

28:28

set goals. And the suggestion I

28:30

make in leading yourself is to

28:32

to reckon with this focus on

28:34

input goals instead of outcome goals.

28:36

Instead of, I want to reach

28:38

this specific title by five years,

28:40

that's an outcome, right? So much

28:43

goes into that. If your industry

28:45

collapses, you could have done everything

28:47

right, and it's not going to

28:49

happen. If your boss is, you

28:51

know, guilty of money laundering, you

28:53

could have done everything right in

28:55

it, and it's not going to

28:57

happen. There's so many variables. But

28:59

when you focus on what's in

29:01

your control, The emphasis on all

29:03

these other factors, macro micro, our

29:05

organization, our boss, they start to

29:07

take less important. So what is

29:09

within your control if you want

29:11

to hit a certain title in

29:13

five years? You're going to make

29:15

sure you're crushing your deliverables. You're

29:17

going to be building relationships with

29:19

people beyond your boss, beyond your

29:21

team, beyond your organization. You are

29:23

going to be diligent about tracking

29:26

your wins, measuring progress, keeping a

29:28

pulse on the metrics that are

29:30

most important to your role. All

29:32

of those things are 100% within

29:34

your control. They're going to drastically

29:36

increase the likelihood of you hitting

29:38

that output of reaching a specific

29:40

title in five years. But if

29:42

you don't hit the specific title

29:44

in five years, you can hang

29:46

your hat on you did your

29:48

best instead of hoping that the

29:50

stars line and they didn't. One

29:52

of the things that I really

29:54

like when you're talking about goals

29:56

in the book is the idea

29:58

that motivation is unreliable and we

30:00

can all attest to that. But

30:02

you say that systems are key.

30:04

How would you tie in what

30:06

you were just talking about with

30:09

all those different processes into putting

30:11

into place those simple systems that

30:13

people can implement to maintain momentum

30:15

at work even though it is

30:17

unreliable? We cannot rely on

30:19

our own motivation, especially now, if you

30:21

happen to glance at the news. I

30:23

think you posted a graphic about this

30:26

on LinkedIn, actually. If you look at

30:28

the news, the first thing in the

30:30

morning, your productivity, your motivation just like

30:33

explodes like a balloon. Like there's no

30:35

more you've popped it with this bubble

30:37

of reality or this needle of reality.

30:39

So that's where assistance come in, making

30:42

sure that our environment, our support is

30:44

optimized to propel our goals. when we're

30:46

not personally feeling it. And breaking it

30:48

down into behavior is one thing. So

30:51

let's go back to the goal that

30:53

I want to get to the specific

30:55

title in five years. We know that

30:58

my ability to track my wins is

31:00

instrumental in possibly reaching that goal, hopefully

31:02

reaching that goal. A system to put

31:04

in place to track your wins is.

31:07

level one is a calendar reminder. I

31:09

would say level two is an accountability

31:11

partner inside your organization or outside of

31:13

your organization where you're meeting on a

31:16

monthly basis to report out your wins.

31:18

A level even further than that is

31:20

I saw this app, I forget the

31:22

name of it, but if you Google

31:25

it, you'll find it where you upload

31:27

like an embarrassing picture of yourself. And

31:29

if you don't do the thing that

31:32

you said you're going to do, the

31:34

app sends it to your entire contact

31:36

list. So depending on your level of

31:38

seriousness with this, there's a huge spectrum

31:41

of what you can do. But in

31:43

all of those examples of the calendar

31:45

reminder of an accountability partner of some

31:47

giant threat that forces you to do

31:50

the thing, the onus is on this

31:52

external prompting event instead of your internal

31:54

desire. And when we break our goals

31:57

down to behavior and we put these.

31:59

external systems around them, we increase the

32:01

likelihood that we do get to that

32:03

five-year title increase. And in the event

32:06

that we don't, we still did a

32:08

lot of things that will help us

32:10

in the long run instead of like,

32:12

oh, it didn't happen for me because

32:15

my boss was money laundering and now

32:17

my reputation is ruined. Well, one of

32:19

the other things that I think of

32:22

when it comes to momentum, and motivation

32:24

sound like very similar words, but in

32:26

fact... Like you're saying, these systems are

32:28

what give us continued momentum when our

32:31

motivation is lacking. One of the other

32:33

things that kind of plays into that

32:35

though, and you talk about this, is

32:37

the factor of energy as well. Well,

32:40

if we always have energy, then that's

32:42

great. We can continually maintain momentum, but

32:44

again, that's something that isn't always there

32:46

as well. You've got to create it,

32:49

you've got to protect it, you've got

32:51

to find out what is going to

32:53

give it to you, especially when it

32:56

comes to energy in the workplace. Right,

32:58

which is often a draining experience. So

33:00

I'll share some advice with you that

33:02

I read. I was reading an interview

33:05

with Merrill Streep and someone who's a

33:07

great actress, who's in The Devil Wears

33:09

Prada, amongst many other quality films. Someone

33:11

was interviewing her about how she's able

33:14

to take on these various roles so

33:16

deeply and adopt this huge variety of

33:18

accents of mannerisms of ages, and they

33:21

said, where do you start? When you

33:23

get a new role, do you start

33:25

with the lines? Do you start with

33:27

the accent? Do you start with the

33:30

mannerisms? Is it the look? And she

33:32

said, I always start where it feels

33:34

fun. And that's something I learned from

33:36

my husband, who is now her ex-husband,

33:39

by the way, who's a sculptor. He

33:41

said, you start where it feels like

33:43

it's good to start. Which seems like

33:46

such an elementary way to approach productivity.

33:48

But the science backs it up and

33:50

to the point of momentum. We know

33:52

that starting with what seems like the

33:55

easiest, the most fun, the most interesting

33:57

part, that energy carries. Instead of fighting

33:59

uphill, you have the wind at your

34:01

back in terms of free thinking, the

34:04

dopamine is flowing, your brain is more

34:06

awake than if you started like the

34:08

most gritty challenging stupid thing first. So

34:11

when we think about managing our own

34:13

energy starting where it feels fun is

34:15

valid, The level of freedom isn't always

34:17

there, right? Sometimes you have to do

34:20

the boring thing first because someone else

34:22

said so. But tapping into, hey, what

34:24

element of this thing is going to

34:26

be the easiest for me, the best

34:29

for me, the most enjoyable for me.

34:31

That is powerful in the way we

34:33

experience our energy and in the level

34:35

of productivity we're able to create in

34:38

our job. Yeah, I was going to

34:40

say it's not always fun, but sometimes

34:42

if, especially with experience, you can figure

34:45

out. What's the easy part? Especially when

34:47

it's a new project, or it's a

34:49

duplicate project, but it's something new. Anyway,

34:51

point I'm getting at is, once in

34:54

a while, stuff comes along and you're

34:56

like, okay, I've got to do that

34:58

thing, this big amorphous blob of... you

35:00

know it's air quotes project and you

35:03

don't know how long it's going to

35:05

take you don't know how even how

35:07

long even some of the broken down

35:10

we always suggest break things down but

35:12

we don't even know what those broken

35:14

down pieces once we've identified them how

35:16

long those are going to take in

35:19

fact I was looking at I was

35:21

trying to do something last night I

35:23

should probably not share this story but

35:25

I'm going to do it anyway I

35:28

was going through this application process for

35:30

something I wanted to do and It's

35:32

all online and it's very systematic and

35:35

regimented and I'm thinking you know at

35:37

first glance you're like user interface Okay,

35:39

there's five things here great. I know

35:41

how long number one took I click

35:44

into number two and I'm like oh

35:46

this doesn't I have to watch this

35:48

video and then answer a few questions

35:50

and the video doesn't have any kind

35:53

of scrolling bar telling me how long

35:55

I'm gonna be watching for now. I'm

35:57

I'm going nuts because I'm like how

35:59

much longer it this video right and

36:02

you just anyway some type of psychological

36:04

test like I can't imagine it might

36:06

be yeah it might be but I

36:09

finished that then I finished the questions

36:11

and I'm like cuckoo creaky I'm like

36:13

okay great I'm on number three I

36:15

now kind of have a basis for

36:18

where I'm at in this process and

36:20

yet then with number three there were

36:22

like four videos instead of one and

36:24

I'm like Ryan

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mintmobile.com. Do you? I was never really

37:44

a runner. The way I see

37:46

running is a gift, especially when

37:48

you have stage four cancer. I'm

37:50

Anne. I'm running the Boston Marathon

37:53

presented by Bank of America.

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Cancer. by

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Bank of America Corporation copyright 2025. The

38:14

starting from nothing, if you can get

38:17

1% of something done the way our

38:19

brain approaches having to do 99% of

38:21

the thing versus 100% of the thing.

38:24

is so drastically different. And to your

38:26

point, managing your energy isn't always starting

38:28

with the fun thing. It's knowing that

38:30

I'm going to plow through a little

38:33

bit of this and then the rest

38:35

is going to come easier to me.

38:37

And what I love about that example,

38:40

and I can't get over the fact

38:42

that there's no timer on a video

38:44

that's playing. That's like the ADHD and

38:47

me could never. Our brain paces itself.

38:49

how much is left and whatever it

38:51

is like if you're really hungry and

38:54

you know lunch is coming at 12

38:56

your brain files out away and at

38:58

1205 you are ravenous at 1155 you're

39:00

okay because lunch is in five minutes

39:03

but in your mind you have lunches

39:05

at 12 and now 12 o'clock has

39:07

passed and your brain has paced itself

39:10

for 12 and when you get beyond

39:12

that it's really hard and that's what

39:14

happens in corporate America we pace ourselves

39:17

to get to the finish line with

39:19

no buffer of energy of time of

39:21

motivation and then something changes and we've

39:23

got nothing left in the tank because

39:26

we paste ourselves only enough to get

39:28

to the finish and to your point

39:30

in your example pacing yourself and then

39:33

when the finish line changes failing to

39:35

recognize that hey finish line change my

39:37

energy is out I'm tapping out I'm

39:40

a reapproach in the morning is so

39:42

important because had you pushed through and

39:44

done questions or whatever was three four

39:47

or five you probably wouldn't have done

39:49

them well because your brain had paced

39:51

itself to I'm gonna be done at

39:53

this point. One of the things that

39:56

it really kind of reminded me of

39:58

is as much as you can study

40:00

and as much as you can learn

40:03

these principles and know, okay, start with

40:05

the fun thing or start with the

40:07

easy thing to gain momentum and then

40:10

you're not starting from 0%. Life is

40:12

like that. at work or otherwise we

40:14

don't know what percentage it is that

40:17

we're waiting for there is no progress

40:19

monitor that scrolls at the bottom of

40:21

something we're waiting for in real life

40:23

sometimes and i kept thinking that i'm

40:26

like you know this is like the

40:28

DMV i have no no idea how

40:30

long it's gonna take me to sit

40:33

here for them to go cycle through

40:35

the seven to ten people that are

40:37

in front of me in line so

40:40

you know what maybe this isn't the

40:42

right time for me to be sitting

40:44

here i have to make a call

40:46

and move on to something else I

40:49

love that you brought this example up

40:51

and what I hope listeners are seeing

40:53

is that you host a podcast on

40:56

productivity and energy. I wrote a book

40:58

on leading yourself and both of us

41:00

still struggle with this. It is an

41:03

ongoing study and an ongoing practice and

41:05

the ability to manage your own energy

41:07

is something that is never like complete.

41:10

You don't check the box on I

41:12

am now master of my own energy.

41:14

You make incremental gains and you learn

41:16

a little bit that over time improves

41:19

things but it's never finished and it's

41:21

never perfect. Yes, and when we come

41:23

up against enough of these things, especially

41:26

in the workplace. This is where we

41:28

get to that point where we're deciding,

41:30

you know what, I'm just gonna show

41:33

up. It's the quiet quitting thing, where

41:35

when we've been depleted from motivation and

41:37

we have a lack of systems, either

41:40

by our making or someone else's, and

41:42

we also have a lack of energy,

41:44

this is where we get to that

41:46

point where we're deciding, you know what,

41:49

I'm just gonna show up and like.

41:51

I'm here, I'm present, but in a,

41:53

I'm filling a spot, kind of a

41:56

way, a phoning it in way. I

41:58

too don't. love the quiet quitting term,

42:00

but the phenomenon of it is deeply

42:03

saddening to me because what I see

42:05

beneath it is not necessarily what shows

42:07

up on the surface, which is like

42:09

resentment and I'm just going to collect

42:12

a paycheck and all the ways HR

42:14

talks about like so terrible. To me,

42:16

what's beneath the surface is a self-protection

42:19

mechanism and survival and people who have

42:21

been so burned emotionally. by bad boss,

42:23

by bad workplace, by unrelenting change, by

42:26

feeling like there's nothing they can control.

42:28

It's that fight, flight, or freeze response.

42:30

And the way it shows up in

42:33

employee engagement is freeze. It's quiet quitting.

42:35

It's saying, I can't afford to emotionally

42:37

invest in this anymore. So to protect

42:39

myself, I'm just going to put this

42:42

wall up. And it It's devastating. We

42:44

know there's organizational consequences, but to suggest

42:46

that you can quiet quit your job

42:49

and be this fulfilled happy engaged person

42:51

outside of work is an impossibility that

42:53

feeling leaks. And when you put up

42:56

this quiet quitting, I'm emotionally checked out

42:58

for 40 hours a week, you can't

43:00

put a guardrail around it. So if

43:03

you're there, you need to find a

43:05

way out because you're the one paying

43:07

the price, whether that is... re-looking at

43:09

your work experience and choosing to engage

43:12

in some small ways that are meaningful

43:14

or finding a new play, thinking that

43:16

you're going to show up and quite

43:19

quit and ha ha, you'll stick it

43:21

to the man of your employer. You're

43:23

sticking into yourself. Yeah, and I've had

43:26

that experience as well. I mean, there

43:28

was a time where I was overachieving.

43:30

a certain standard it was that I

43:32

won't go into it but basically there

43:35

was a ranking that came out as

43:37

far as you know how many people

43:39

it was an admissions thing and I

43:42

was enrolling more students I mean it

43:44

was the end of the fiscal year

43:46

and I happened to see it I

43:49

think somebody either by mistake or otherwise

43:51

out the ranking and it didn't just

43:53

give like you know one through whatever

43:56

it gave the numbers and I was

43:58

at the top and it wasn't that

44:00

hard but then I saw everybody else's

44:02

numbers on down the way and realized

44:05

they were getting paid the same as

44:07

me and that was incredibly demotivating and

44:09

so I just said well how can

44:12

I continue to do this position because

44:14

I need it and I wanted it

44:16

and this was years and years and

44:19

years ago. How can I still show

44:21

up but how can I conserve my

44:23

energy because clearly there are other people

44:26

here who aren't doing nearly as much

44:28

and they're and it's okay and again

44:30

it was probably not a great pattern

44:32

but I then started applying productivity hacks.

44:35

and I was doing batch processing and

44:37

I was doing mail merge stuff and

44:39

I was doing checklists and all these

44:42

kinds of things. And then I got

44:44

into a habit of, oh, well, I'm

44:46

done for the morning at 9.30, 10

44:49

a.m. Let's just coast to lunch and

44:51

then the same thing repeated over into

44:53

the afternoon. and I was playing some

44:55

video games and stuff. I had positioned

44:58

my computer, picked a cubicle where I

45:00

knew when everybody was coming. I am

45:02

proud and not proud at the same

45:05

time of this. He is both a

45:07

flex and a point of embarrassing. Exactly.

45:09

There was a lot of wasted time

45:12

and yet I'm proud that I was

45:14

able to figure that out and still

45:16

like, you know, break records and things.

45:19

So it's one of those things where,

45:21

again, I could have been sitting in

45:23

a meeting and they could have been

45:25

as you say in the book in

45:28

the corporate world. Give 110%. Well, you

45:30

can't, one, that's just logically impossible. You

45:32

can't give more than 100% of something,

45:35

but you challenge that idea saying we

45:37

shouldn't be giving 110% to everything. So

45:39

how is professionals, can we strategically conserve

45:42

our energy but not appear to be

45:44

disengaged or stay fully? on what we

45:46

need to. I like your very corporate

45:48

wording on that. I use the term

45:51

phone it in in the book, which

45:53

is how can you be intentional with

45:55

your effort and choose low impact areas

45:58

in your job or in your life

46:00

where you're going to phone it in.

46:02

And the reason I called this out

46:05

in the book Leading Yourself is my

46:07

audience and I would suggest yours, like

46:09

people listening to a productivity podcast. are

46:12

innate high performers. They want to excel.

46:14

They want to be that person at

46:16

the top of the rankings when the

46:18

rankings mysteriously get revealed. And what we

46:21

see in the long term is when

46:23

that internal drive is left unchecked, it

46:25

is more ripe for burnout. And the

46:28

suggestion to phone it in is not

46:30

saying you shouldn't care. It's saying you

46:32

should care more selectively. And when you

46:35

look at your job. There are elements

46:37

that are not as important. as others

46:39

when you look at your life. There

46:42

are elements that are not as important

46:44

as others. And being able to differentiate

46:46

between those high impact things, the things

46:48

that fill your energy, the things your

46:51

boss really cares about versus, you know,

46:53

I could use chat TPT to write

46:55

up a summary of that meeting and

46:58

have to call through all the notes.

47:00

That is an innate skill because what

47:02

it does is it opens your mental

47:05

space for more creative thinking, more innovation,

47:07

more engagement. It also opens opportunities for

47:09

you because you have white space. When

47:11

there is an initiative that you want

47:14

to be a part of, you got

47:16

time in your calendar to raise your

47:18

hand. When there's a sick kid, you

47:21

gotta leave work a little bit early.

47:23

There's some space in the calendar to

47:25

do some shuffling. We need that buffer.

47:28

And high performers often mistake that buffer

47:30

as, oh, I'm not doing enough, I

47:32

could be doing more, but safeguarding it

47:35

and preserving it and making sure that

47:37

we are phoning it for opportunities. Yeah,

47:39

I think one of the things that

47:41

can be a though with that is

47:44

it's not always our say as to

47:46

what is or isn't as and this

47:48

leads into the whole boss management working

47:51

with other people aspect of it and

47:53

we have a certain amount of agency

47:55

and it is definitely up to us

47:58

to figure out how much do we

48:00

already have and you know what's our

48:02

what's the again going back to what

48:05

how do we see it what versus

48:07

what's the actual reality of it and

48:09

then how can we exercise more of

48:11

it but then how can we exercise

48:14

more of it complicates things as well.

48:16

Yeah, this is all fine and dandy

48:18

to talk about on a podcast and

48:21

tell your boss is like, no, everything

48:23

is a high priority. It all matters.

48:25

Everything requires full attention. I read two

48:28

books last month that were both really

48:30

good and had a shocking amount of

48:32

overlap. I read managing up by Melody

48:34

Wilding, which is great book. I also

48:37

read how to talk so kids will

48:39

listen, which is a book from the

48:41

90s. that I'm hoping helps me in

48:44

toddler parenting. And when I tell you,

48:46

the then diagram on these two books,

48:48

near circle, like sub out toddler for

48:51

boss, and what I came to realize,

48:53

and something that I've kind of thought

48:55

for a long time prior to reading

48:58

these two books, is that people are

49:00

people, and we have this innate desire

49:02

to be. validated and told yes and

49:04

told that the thing we care about

49:07

is going to happen and it's going

49:09

to be okay. Your boss has that

49:11

desire, so does your toddler. You approach

49:14

it in different ways though. So when

49:16

we think about prioritization and your boss

49:18

or someone else of authority saying everything

49:21

is important, everything matters, you have to

49:23

do everything 110% saying no I don't,

49:25

I have to pick and choose. is

49:28

not going to work in the long

49:30

term. I was like, I feel like

49:32

I could have probably only read one

49:34

of these. But leaning into that saying,

49:37

yes, I agree, everything is really important.

49:39

I see why all of these things

49:41

are a priority, right? We're gonna take

49:44

that fear down, we're gonna put ourselves

49:46

on the same page with the boss.

49:48

When it comes to prioritization, not saying

49:51

you're not gonna do this other thing,

49:53

which do you think is most important?

49:55

And then stop talking. Give the other

49:57

person who is dictating to you all

50:00

these things that you have to do,

50:02

the power in some cases to rank

50:04

them and to choose. Even if they

50:07

don't want to, they will. And when

50:09

you sink up on that and they

50:11

feel that you hear them, you know

50:14

all these things are a priority and

50:16

you're starting on this one first, they're

50:18

less likely to micromanage who won't bother

50:21

you. But the temptation is like no

50:23

I have boundaries and I'm not going

50:25

to give a hundred and ten percent

50:27

And you can't talk to me like

50:30

that and just makes everything worse You

50:32

certainly don't want to take abuse, but

50:34

the more you can validate the intent

50:37

behind all these things the more you

50:39

can confirm that you see the value

50:41

You know they're important and the more

50:44

you can force the other person to

50:46

rank them the better off to the

50:48

relationship will be in the long run

50:51

Yeah, and it's also a good skill

50:53

to practice. I'm that boss or and

50:55

I am that boss to me like

50:57

I am a small team or I

51:00

am a department of one so it's

51:02

still up to me and it comes

51:04

down to okay well then I still

51:07

have to prioritize and then not only

51:09

do I have to prioritize but I

51:11

have to sequence. And it's so hard

51:14

to do when everything is flying at

51:16

you. I wrote this piece for Harvard

51:18

business review called how to work for

51:20

a boss who always changes their mind.

51:23

which is something I hear all the

51:25

time, and I had so many leaders

51:27

come back to me and say, oh

51:30

no, I am that boss, the story.

51:32

you wrote about of the boss who

51:34

saw a tick-talk of something and the

51:37

boss who saw an ad for something

51:39

else and the boss who went to

51:41

a conference and heard this new idea

51:44

and was so happy about it all

51:46

and dumped it all on their team

51:48

and disrupted everything, I'm that person and

51:50

I didn't mean to be. And seeing

51:53

the response to that piece from the

51:55

leader's perspective gave me great empathy because

51:57

so often your boss is not overwhelming

52:00

you, giving you all these priorities, saying

52:02

nothing can fall through the cracks because

52:04

they suck and they're a bad person

52:07

and they hate you, it's because they

52:09

have a lot to do too. And

52:11

their boss is likely doing the same

52:14

thing to them. That doesn't mean you

52:16

have to take it on the chin,

52:18

but the ability to whether you are

52:20

your own leader or whether you are

52:23

working for someone to say, okay, here's

52:25

our landscape here, let's pick and choose,

52:27

we got to, because if not, the

52:30

important thing is going to fall through

52:32

the cracks, is going to fall through

52:34

the cracks on the cracks on accident.

52:37

Yeah, ultimately sometimes it just comes down

52:39

to, okay, which thing are we working

52:41

on first? It doesn't even really matter

52:43

because all of it's getting done at

52:46

the same time anyway. It's really just

52:48

a matter of in the moment for

52:50

today or this week. And then when

52:53

you scale back out to a month

52:55

and look at that, it's like, oh,

52:57

well, it really did all get done

53:00

at the same time anyway. It's just

53:02

really more for my immediate like, do

53:04

I do do this or this or

53:07

this first real quick? overall. So, by

53:09

the way, spoiler alert, Melody Wilding will

53:11

be on the show in a few

53:13

weeks to talk about managing up. So

53:16

we will be diving. Yeah, we will

53:18

be diving into this topic a little

53:20

bit more. Obviously, there's a lot more

53:23

that we haven't even touched on from

53:25

your book, as well as a much

53:27

more deeper dive into all the stuff

53:30

we did talk about. I would love

53:32

to point people to where they can

53:34

grab leading yourself, as well as find

53:37

out more slash follow all your work.

53:39

My book Leading Yourself is Everywhere Books

53:41

Are Sold. Audible, Kendall, Amazon, Target, Barnes

53:43

& Noble, wherever you buy your books,

53:46

there I am. You can also follow

53:48

me on LinkedIn at Elizabeth Lataro, visit

53:50

my website. Elizabeth lotardo.com. I will say

53:53

if you are not a reader of

53:55

books, this is a fractal much like

53:57

most good business books these days where

54:00

you can thumb around and I have

54:02

a video summary of it. So if

54:04

you order the books, send me an

54:06

email, I'll send you the video summary

54:09

on me. That's perfect. So I'll link

54:11

up to all the things you just

54:13

mentioned in the show notes for this

54:16

episode and. Elizabeth, great talking with you

54:18

and open invitation. Come on back as

54:20

you continue to dive in and dig

54:23

through all of this work stuff. You've

54:25

got to always an open invitation to

54:27

come back to the show. Awesome. I

54:30

so appreciate being with you. Your audience

54:32

is one that is inspiring. I mean,

54:34

people who in this period of time

54:36

want their work experience and the work

54:39

experience of those around them to be

54:41

better, to be more productive, to be

54:43

more meaningful. I love this community. Awesome.

54:46

Thank you. Well, that's another

54:48

podcast crossed off your listening to do list.

54:50

I hope that you got something out of

54:52

this conversation with Elizabeth Letardo, like I did.

54:54

This is a great book that partners with

54:57

a number of the other conversations we've had

54:59

recently, and I hope that you've found some

55:01

ideas to create some more joy at your

55:03

workplace or find those small moments of impact

55:06

that can help you have a better sense

55:08

of purpose where you're at. And, again, we've

55:10

got other conversations all about finding other things,

55:12

if that current job still isn't for you.

55:15

Make sure to check those out in the

55:17

feed. And if you found this episode helpful,

55:19

do me the favor of sharing it. Share

55:21

it on social media to your friends and

55:24

family and followers or send it on over

55:26

to one person you know needs to hear

55:28

it and help it make the impact on

55:30

them that it did on you. Thanks again

55:32

for sharing. Thanks for listening and I'll see

55:35

you next episode.