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0:46

Hello and welcome back to Beyond

0:48

the To-Do List, a podcast about

0:50

productivity. I'm your host, Eric Fisher,

0:52

and I'm excited to welcome to

0:55

the show Jenny Wood. She's a

0:57

former Google executive, founder of Own

0:59

Your Career, and an expert in

1:01

career development and leadership. In this

1:03

conversation, we're talking about her new

1:05

book, Wild Courage. Go after what

1:07

you want and get it. And

1:09

we talk about why we get

1:11

stuck, the fears, the failure, the

1:13

uncertainty that hold us back from

1:15

pursuing our goals, and why action

1:17

instead of overthinking can create clarity

1:20

and progress towards those goals, how

1:22

to ask for what you deserve,

1:25

whether it's advocating for a raise

1:27

or a promotion or a career

1:29

opportunity, you can do it with

1:32

confidence. how to take smart risks.

1:34

So if you need a boost

1:36

of confidence or a reminder of

1:39

your own self-agency and advocacy for

1:41

yourself, or a little push to

1:44

take some risks, this conversation with

1:46

Jenny Wood is perfect for you.

1:48

Well, it is my privilege to welcome

1:50

to the show Jenny Wood. Jenny,

1:53

welcome to Beyond the To-Do List.

1:55

It is such a joy to be here.

1:57

You've got this great brand new

1:59

book. called Wild Courage. Go after what

2:02

you want and get it. And obviously

2:04

I want to start with the fact

2:06

that you're a former Google executive, you

2:08

were the founder of Own Your Career,

2:10

so you have a lot of career

2:12

development insight in the mix. I'm curious

2:15

how did both those roles or things

2:17

and projects lead to you seeing through

2:19

your own experience as well as your

2:21

own lived experience? the reason that you

2:23

needed to put this book out there.

2:26

I think of this as a solution

2:28

and offering to people who feel stuck.

2:30

Think about something you want right now.

2:32

It could be a goal, it could

2:34

be a relationship, it could be a

2:36

project, and think about what's getting between

2:39

you and achieving that thing. By the

2:41

time I started working on Wild Courage,

2:43

I had trained tens of thousands of

2:45

Googlers, non-googlers, directly, and on leadership, influence,

2:47

success. And the same theme kept coming

2:50

up when people felt stuck. And that

2:52

was their relationship to fear. Fear of

2:54

failure, fear of uncertainty, fear of judgment

2:56

of others. And so Wild Courage is

2:58

the... It's the process of feeling that

3:00

fear and taking action anyway, and it's

3:03

the set of tools that helps you

3:05

go after what you want and get

3:07

it. And the reason that those experiences

3:09

at Google, founding the Own Your Career

3:11

Program, you know, growing from entry level

3:14

to executive, The reason that that led

3:16

into this is because I saw so

3:18

many people feel stuck, talented, skilled, exceptional,

3:20

experienced, well-networked people, right? It's Google. You

3:22

get the cream of the crop there.

3:25

They still felt stuck. They felt like

3:27

they weren't able to be productive and

3:29

live to their fullest potential to get

3:31

promoted, to get raises, to get on

3:33

the best projects. It pained me so

3:35

much to see these fantastically talented people

3:38

staying stuck that I wanted to do

3:40

something about it. Well, and one of

3:42

the things that we hear often when

3:44

it comes to productivity advice is, okay,

3:46

I'm going to put my head down

3:49

and I'm going to focus and I'm

3:51

going to... grind it out and I'm

3:53

gonna just blast forward through my to-do

3:55

list, but in a lot of ways

3:57

that's what leads to being stuck is

3:59

because you're so siloed and so, I

4:02

don't know, tunnel visioned that you're not

4:04

looking around you at the opportunities that

4:06

are passing you by, let alone the

4:08

fact that when you do see them,

4:10

you feel like you're not prepared for

4:13

taking that chance. Can we talk about

4:15

opportunities that pass you by for a

4:17

minute with a totally different example? All

4:19

right. So it's 2011. I'm riding the

4:21

subway home from work. I'm on the

4:23

seed train. It's dirty. It's crowded. It's

4:26

packed. And I see this really good

4:28

looking guy standing about 20 feet away

4:30

from me. And I want to go

4:32

up and talk to him. Right. He's

4:34

gorgeous blue eyes, thick brown, wavy hair.

4:37

But something holds me back. And it's

4:39

those same three fears I reference fear

4:41

of failure what if he's married fear

4:43

of uncertainty what if he's a convicted

4:45

felon fear of judgment of others what

4:47

if a hundred people stare at me

4:50

on this packed train so I sit

4:52

there I do nothing as the train

4:54

passes stop after stop and as this

4:56

is what made me think of the

4:58

story as life passed me by head

5:01

down stuck in the proverbial to-do list

5:03

right probably looking at my phone checking

5:05

things off. but I'm still so taken

5:07

by him that I make a deal

5:09

with the universe and I say if

5:12

he gets off at my stop then

5:14

I'll try to strike up a conversation

5:16

with him and if not then say

5:18

lovey he gets off at the next

5:20

stop 59th Street and all of a

5:22

sudden this wave of wild courage practically

5:25

washes over me and pushes me out

5:27

of my subway seat and off the

5:29

train And I decided in that moment,

5:31

I am going to be open to

5:33

the possibilities, open to the opportunities. I

5:36

chase after him, I tap him on

5:38

the shoulder, I say, excuse me, I'm

5:40

sorry to bother you, you're wearing gloves,

5:42

so I can't tell if you're wearing

5:44

a wedding ring, but in the event

5:46

that you're not married, you're on my

5:49

subway and I thought you were cute.

5:51

Any chance I could give you my

5:53

business card, we go on a date

5:55

a week later. three years later we're

5:57

getting married and now we've been married

6:00

happily for 11 years with two little

6:02

hooligans ages seven and nine. So bring

6:04

this up because I could not agree

6:06

more with you know productivity is not

6:08

necessarily powering through the to-do list it's

6:10

opening yourself up to possibilities. It's pushing

6:13

past the fear to take action. It's

6:15

recognizing that action not thinking provides clarity

6:17

and clarity opens the door to productivity.

6:19

Yeah, and you even talk about this

6:21

in the book where it's not about

6:24

waiting for the right moment because there's

6:26

never the right moment. you're talking about

6:28

taking bold steps, even making mistakes. Like

6:30

what, in other words, even if he

6:32

had had a wedding ring on, which

6:35

I'm glad for you he did not.

6:37

Me too, he's so great, he's with

6:39

the kids right now while I'm in

6:41

the city launching this book. But even

6:43

if he had had one on, you

6:45

said, if this happens, then I'm going

6:48

to do this, and you followed through,

6:50

and the worst that could happen would

6:52

have been, oh yeah, sorry, and then

6:54

you just get off anyway. No, it

6:56

was actually 12 blocks before myself. So

6:59

I changed on a dime, but it

7:01

makes it even more powerful. So my

7:03

stop was 72nd Street, his was 59th

7:05

Street, I walked home 12 blocks in

7:07

the blizzard. But you know what? If

7:09

he had said no of those three

7:12

fears, fear of failure, fear of uncertainty,

7:14

I'm particularly plagued by fear of uncertainty.

7:16

So I'd rather have no but have

7:18

it be definitive than sit there wondering

7:20

for the rest of my life what

7:23

could have been should I have done

7:25

it right you know Dan Pink says

7:27

in the power of regret something along

7:29

the lines of we regret the moves

7:31

not taken much more than the outcome

7:33

of the moves we do take and

7:36

that relates to the reckless chapter of

7:38

my book which is one of the

7:40

nine traits of wild courage yeah well

7:42

and there's also this echo of you

7:44

still had this interval time before he

7:47

called, right? He said, sure, I'll take

7:49

the card, you gave it, then you

7:51

walked home in the blizzard, and then

7:53

it wasn't until the next day. So

7:55

you had this like, you know, flexible

7:57

window of 24. where you still could

8:00

live with confidence in that, okay, I

8:02

tried, I did, I did, I stepped

8:04

up, and you didn't know what the

8:06

answer was gonna be, luckily it wasn't

8:08

that long. Yeah, but think sometimes,

8:11

you know, it can be, depending on

8:13

the situation, a job interview, asking your

8:15

boss for a raise, raising your hand

8:18

to be on a big flagship project

8:20

at work, that sometimes that interval can

8:22

be days or weeks or months, and

8:24

it can be very hard to push

8:27

through that uncertainty, but again, like you

8:29

mentioned. there's so much goodness that comes

8:31

out of taking action. I flexed my

8:34

boldness muscle. I stepped out of my

8:36

comfort zone. The fact that if you

8:38

take 100 shots, you might get one

8:40

of them, right? Wayne Gretsky. You miss

8:43

100% of the shots you don't take.

8:45

So there's all, maybe my approach was

8:47

wrong. Maybe I, maybe he said no

8:49

or he didn't call and then I

8:52

revisit like how I approached him. And

8:54

again, I'm using this very unusual example

8:56

of chasing a You know, I've got

8:58

this big book coming out with Penguin

9:01

Random House. I am gunning to promote

9:03

this and it's so much work and

9:05

it is rife with rejection. I am

9:07

a keynote speaker and so when the

9:10

book was available for advanced copies, I

9:12

sent out 300 to prospective clients, you know,

9:14

Fortune 500 companies where I could be a

9:16

consultant or a workshop facilitator or a keynote

9:18

speaker. thinking like, oh, well, everyone's just going

9:21

to find me immediately and hire me for

9:23

a keynote speech. And then I was like,

9:25

oh, I guess I have to follow up.

9:27

I sent the first 200 email to follow

9:29

up and say, hey, did you get the

9:32

book? Do you like it? Do you have

9:34

any interest in me adding value to your

9:36

company? Sent out the first 200. And The

9:38

response was not people knocking down my

9:40

door. And so it's like this is a

9:43

much longer interval of the uncertainty and the

9:45

waiting and the ghosting and the rejection, which

9:47

I think is just what scares people from

9:50

taking action. And I have to say, it

9:52

was very hard for me to send that

9:54

last hundred emails, and I had to push

9:56

through all those fears and tap into my

9:59

own wild curbs. to keep going when

10:01

I didn't get the answers I wanted

10:03

every time. On the subway that day,

10:05

you know, I did get a wonderful

10:08

answer and a wonderful life and a

10:10

wonderful marriage and family, but there are

10:12

so many times that I don't and

10:14

I have to push through my own

10:17

fear and it is legitimately hard to

10:19

have wild courage and to keep pushing

10:21

no matter what the situation work-life relationships,

10:23

friendships. Well, ultimately, it's a question of...

10:26

who do we want to be? It's

10:28

not just about what we want, but

10:30

it's the who behind it. And that's

10:32

what you get at with these traits

10:35

that you talk about with being weird

10:37

and self. And some of these traits,

10:39

before I get into these traits, by

10:41

the way, I want to say, some

10:44

of these words can be. I hate

10:46

using the word triggering, but it's that

10:48

there's a preconceived notion in a negative

10:50

kind of painting when a word has

10:53

been used in a negative way so

10:55

often. Like the word manipulative, for example,

10:57

or nosy or obsessed or shameless. Actually,

10:59

all of them kind of come across

11:02

that way. It's fun. Now that I'm,

11:04

it's registering now. It's like, wait a

11:06

second. You start with weird and go

11:08

selfish, shameless, nosy, manipulative, and I'm like,

11:11

of course those all seem like negative

11:13

negative things. but you spin them in

11:15

a positive way because it takes this

11:17

kind of bucking the system or I

11:20

should say bucking other people's expectations and

11:22

really relying on who it is you're

11:24

deciding to be. It's provocative by design

11:26

right? These are classically negative traits but

11:29

in reality they create the bars of

11:31

an invisible cage that keep us small

11:33

that keep us quiet that keep us

11:35

following instead of leading and this gets

11:38

to that third fear the fear of

11:40

judgment because sometimes when we don't take

11:42

action when we don't send those last

11:44

hundred pitch emails that we know could

11:47

yield productive conversations and mutual value exchange

11:49

for a company and money for us

11:51

right or we don't chase the cute

11:53

stranger off the subway oftentimes it's because

11:56

we don't want to be perceived as

11:58

perceived as XYZ label right those blanks

12:00

being weird or selfish or shameless or

12:02

bossy. But when we reclaim this language,

12:05

these ideas, we are able to dial

12:07

up our confidence, kick our imposter syndrome

12:09

to the curb and live less in

12:11

fear that someone might judge us as

12:14

these things. It's almost like you think

12:16

of advice that you'd give a friend.

12:18

Let's say they, the company has downsized

12:20

and now they're responsible for the roles

12:23

of three different people, right? But with

12:25

no different title, no pay, you'd say

12:27

to your friend. you know, well, why

12:29

don't you, like, you should demand, not

12:32

demand, but you should go advocate for

12:34

yourself and go ask for more pay

12:36

or ask for a different title or

12:38

whatever it is, be recognized for your

12:41

contributions and your value, but sometimes we

12:43

don't take this advice ourselves. And so

12:45

that's where I put a little heat

12:47

on older, more traditional words and call

12:50

them, you know, be a little bit

12:52

shameless, be a little bit selfish, because

12:54

you would tell a friend, like, shamelessly

12:56

ask for it. The old versions of

12:59

them, they all have a translation. So

13:01

weird would be authentic, selfish, self-advocacy, shameless

13:03

confidence, manipulative relationship building, etc. Yeah, I

13:05

love that. I think that's the way

13:08

to go with this is that you've

13:10

got to look at what these are

13:12

in terms of the instant kind of

13:14

feeling you get from them, but then

13:17

realize that they actually, this is slang,

13:19

and it's like slang words in other

13:21

words, versus the true definition. Yeah, it's

13:23

reclaiming them in a fun way that

13:26

helps people think about it differently and

13:28

pay a little bit of attention because

13:30

we're tired of those old words, right?

13:32

We've heard leadership, which I call bossy,

13:35

we've heard authenticity again, which I call

13:37

weird, so many times that sometimes they

13:39

lose their potency. Well, let's talk about

13:41

that authenticity because I think that, or

13:44

the word weird, you start the book

13:46

with that and you talk about all

13:48

of the ways that essentially... we can

13:50

be authentic or we can conform and

13:53

there's kind of a balance there because

13:55

for a lot of us we're working

13:57

in an organization or and there's a

13:59

culture that exists already and we want

14:02

to go along with it but we

14:04

also want to make sure that we're

14:06

having agency for ourselves. How would you

14:08

suggest we go along as well as

14:11

stand out? Yeah, so I mean, imagine

14:13

you're the intern, right, at an organization

14:15

and you're there for a summer internship.

14:18

If you just want that internship on

14:20

your resume for the three-month stint, then

14:22

sure, be a lemming and just where

14:24

the expected business casual attire and, you

14:27

know, show up to every meeting and

14:29

not along. If you want to get

14:31

that job offer among the 20 highly

14:33

qualified interns who are also competing for

14:36

that full-time offer in the fall, then

14:38

perhaps you thoughtfully disagree in a meeting

14:40

and offer a different perspective. Or you

14:42

raise your hand and ask a question

14:45

in the town hall where the VP

14:47

is leading and opens it up for

14:49

questions. Or you say to your manager

14:51

for the internship, hey, I see us

14:54

doing it this way. Here are three

14:56

different options of how else we could

14:58

do this. And here's my perspective on

15:00

which of those three options is the

15:03

best. I call that give three options

15:05

have a POV. And it's like, it

15:07

is such simple stuff. Or maybe you're

15:09

quote unquote weird by sending your manager

15:12

what I call a Monday minifesto, four

15:14

bullets, two things you're proud of that

15:16

you did last week, and two things

15:18

that you're excited to work on this

15:21

week. Is it weird? Like, no, it's

15:23

not weird, but is it weird because

15:25

no one else is doing it? Like,

15:27

yeah, and that's okay. So you can

15:30

fit in in certain ways, right? You

15:32

can get along with your peers, you

15:34

can be a team player. typically be

15:36

expected of an intern, but they're good

15:39

things that are going to make you

15:41

look like a rock star and help

15:43

you get that full-time offer at the

15:45

end of the summer. One of the

15:48

ways that you exemplify this breaking of

15:50

social norms while not becoming unprofessional is

15:52

through the red sneakers effect. Talk a

15:54

little bit about that. There's this study

15:57

out of harbor that suggests that if

15:59

you wear red sneakers with a tuxedo,

16:01

you're perceived as being higher in status.

16:03

higher in class. You have to be

16:06

mindful of it, right? If you wear

16:08

a wrinkled suit to a fancy restaurant

16:10

and old torn sneakers, it won't have

16:12

the same Genesee quo. When we make

16:15

intentional moves to stand out, you are

16:17

perceived as higher in status, because that's

16:19

the kind of move that like a

16:21

rock star would make, right? Like red

16:24

sneakers with a tux at an art

16:26

gallery opening. Like they must be super

16:28

important. So when you take bold moves

16:30

like that, people then perceive you as

16:33

being to stand out, which can lead

16:35

to trusting relationships and to job offers

16:37

and to project offers or new opportunities

16:39

because of the air that you're putting

16:42

out. That is a great example. Thank

16:44

you for bringing it up of how

16:46

to be weird in the right way.

16:48

And I'm not saying everyone should go

16:51

out and buy red sneakers and pair

16:53

them with a tux, but it is,

16:55

though I do have sparkly sneakers on

16:57

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beyond. So one of the

19:11

other things that I'm thinking of here

19:14

we use this example of the intern

19:16

well, what if you say you're already

19:18

in the organization and This is one

19:20

of those things where like for example

19:23

you had a very bold salary ask

19:25

at one point. And so you're already

19:27

embedded, you're already internal, but you know

19:29

you're worth more than you're getting. And

19:32

there's another example in the book as

19:34

well that kind of pairs along with

19:36

that where you stand up and you

19:38

ask for a significant raise. Oftentimes, we

19:41

don't think to ask for the raise,

19:43

we think, oh, I'll just plug along

19:45

and do what I'm told and prove

19:47

myself and my work will speak for

19:49

itself, but often that is not what

19:51

happens. Yeah, the biggest lie you've

19:53

been told in your career is that

19:56

keep to just keep your head down,

19:58

your work will speak for itself. Going

20:00

back to that example, I shared about

20:02

the advice you'd give a friend, right,

20:04

of let's say there were layoffs, you're

20:06

now doing the work of two or

20:08

three people. This is a tool I

20:11

love called Plato Win, W.I.N. and what

20:13

I need now. And you know, maybe

20:15

a year ago, you didn't need a

20:17

raise because you were doing some. regular

20:19

amount of work, but now you do

20:21

need a raise because you're doing more

20:23

work. And the story I share here

20:25

is from a hired singer, just a

20:28

session singer, which means that she was

20:30

just brought in for this one song

20:32

to vocalize on this one song. Her

20:34

name is Claritore and she was brought

20:36

in by Pink Floyd to record these

20:38

vocals for the Dark Side of the

20:40

Moon album. She collected a 30 pound

20:42

fee and headed out and that was

20:45

it. She didn't even know that the

20:47

vocals she had sung for Great Gig

20:49

in the Sky, a song on the

20:51

album Dark Side of the Moon, had

20:53

made it to the album until it

20:55

was live, and you heard it. Well,

20:57

that album went platinum 14 times over,

20:59

so what did she do? She got

21:02

selfish, she said, I've got to play

21:04

to win, what I need now. She

21:06

took them to court, and then they

21:08

settled out of court for an undisclosed

21:10

sum. I'm guessing that some was more

21:12

than 30 pounds. you know she played

21:14

to win and you can too whether

21:16

it's asking for a raise or asking

21:19

for a promotion or let's say your

21:21

partner's company goes work from home five

21:23

days a week and you're still commuting

21:25

to the office three days a week

21:27

maybe last year you did the laundry

21:29

or had more household responsibilities and now

21:31

you need to play to win and

21:33

ask if they can do more of

21:36

the household tours or A couple weeks

21:38

ago, my husband and I were flying

21:40

somewhere with our two kids. We had

21:42

a configuration of three seats in one

21:44

row and then one single seat. It

21:46

was a till time for my husband

21:48

at work and I was prepping for

21:50

this book launch and prepping for a

21:53

keynote with a company I was super

21:55

excited to work with. And rather than

21:57

splitting the flight two hours and two

21:59

hours single seat for one of us

22:01

and with the kids for the other,

22:03

I said, can you take the kids

22:05

the whole flight? Call it selfish. But

22:07

I was playing to win what I

22:10

need now. is to have this four-hour

22:12

work block on this flight, and that

22:14

makes sense for our relationship right now

22:16

and our relative work responsibilities. But a

22:18

lot of people don't do it. A

22:20

lot of people feel guilty or feel

22:22

bad or have a hard time having

22:24

the courage to stand up for what

22:27

they want in any given moment. Yeah,

22:29

and often they'll compensate and say, well

22:31

I feel bad asking, so maybe what

22:33

I need to do is not just,

22:35

you know, they buy into the lie

22:37

into the lie where my work will

22:39

speak for itself. I'll show them. I'll

22:41

take on more work and then they

22:44

end up burnt out. Yeah, exactly. And

22:46

I actually love something else you said

22:48

about feeling guilty asking. If I do

22:50

a 10 year anniversary edition, I will

22:52

add this to the book because it

22:54

would also fall under selfish and I

22:56

call it the pitch pullback. And I

22:58

call it the pitch pullback. And that's

23:01

where you ask somebody for a favor,

23:03

but then you pull it back with

23:05

language that softens it so much that

23:07

it almost loses its power of the

23:09

ask. So for example, I asked a

23:11

friend, I texted a mom friend and

23:13

I said a mom friend. you. But

23:15

then in the same text, I said,

23:18

but no worries if you can't. I

23:20

totally understand. You're busy too. So I

23:22

pitched. Can you take our party? And

23:24

then I pulled back saying, oh, but

23:26

don't worry. I'm sure you're busy. You

23:28

don't have to. Like she knows she

23:30

can say no. She knows she can

23:32

say no. Why did I feel the

23:35

need to pull back on the pitch?

23:37

I should have constantly. That's okay. Yeah,

23:39

and in fact it even weakens the

23:41

initial pitch because they think you don't

23:43

really care if you're gonna backpedal that

23:45

much out of it. Yeah, why give

23:47

someone an easy out if you're asking

23:49

for them to do something? Ask thoughtfully,

23:52

ask respectfully, but you can just make

23:54

the request and then drop the mic.

23:56

Yeah, you can. If if they say

23:58

no, which often they will, and I'm

24:00

glad that they do, because I mean,

24:02

just the bold ask. isn't going to

24:04

get a yes every single time. We

24:06

should be upfront about that. But when

24:09

the no comes, part of training to

24:11

get a yes later for a different

24:13

ask is in how you respond to

24:15

them about their no. Oh yeah, absolutely.

24:17

And the reality is that when you

24:19

get each of those no's, it's kind

24:21

of, it's spine straightening, right? And it's

24:23

skin thickening and it can be a

24:26

good thing that leads to more opportunities

24:28

in the future because Of course you're

24:30

not going to. always win every shot

24:32

they take. But then you were fine,

24:34

like the example of, okay, so if

24:36

John had said no, on the subway,

24:38

I would have thought, okay, well, how

24:40

could I have approached him differently? Or

24:43

actually, maybe it's a better example to

24:45

think about these pitches for keynotes. Was

24:47

I clear enough in my offering? Was

24:49

I clear enough in my offering? Was

24:51

I succinct enough? Did I say my

24:53

keynote fee when I should have asked

24:55

them their budget first? Am I over

24:57

priced? By the way? it's extra special

25:00

if you feel comfortable asking for feedback,

25:02

even from someone you don't know very

25:04

well, like, hey, I'm curious, what would

25:06

have made this a yes for you?

25:08

Or how could we, how could I

25:10

tweet this in the future? Which I

25:12

think can be very powerful and people

25:14

wouldn't think to do that. I would

25:17

put this under the shameless heading where

25:19

people think, okay, I got the no,

25:21

I didn't get the job, I didn't

25:23

get the offer, I didn't get the

25:25

date, and just move the date, and

25:27

just move on. Often will give you

25:29

a little bit of feedback, not everyone

25:31

for sure, but you can learn really

25:34

interesting things from that. Yeah, there's a

25:36

lot there to be learned in that

25:38

vein of the shameless attribute trait that

25:40

essentially we don't have enough confidence in

25:42

ourselves to stand up and be proud

25:44

of our accomplishments or, you know, we're

25:46

high achievers and yet even then we

25:48

struggle to take credit for our own

25:51

work. like you were talking about in

25:53

the pitch, it's like, you know what,

25:55

it makes a lot of sense to

25:57

make sure that you are practical way

25:59

walking that line. confidence and arrogance and

26:01

making sure that you stay on the

26:03

right side of it but you know it's

26:05

almost be bold with writing the pitch

26:08

first then reread it and say okay is

26:10

it's all truthful but maybe the wording

26:12

the clarity of the message is what needs

26:14

to be tweaked or the tone I should

26:16

say for sure and then also just

26:19

recognizing all the external factors

26:21

that don't have to do

26:23

with you right so it's

26:25

What oftentimes blocks us, again,

26:27

keep going back to those

26:29

three fears, it's our, we

26:31

are our own blocker. And

26:33

then we think, oh, well,

26:35

it's me, I'm not good

26:38

enough, I'm not skilled enough,

26:40

I'm not experienced enough, I'm

26:42

not talented enough, I'm not

26:44

talented enough, I'm not well

26:46

networked enough. But let's say you're

26:48

applying for a job and you

26:51

get a rejection. fit for the

26:53

team, right? There's even personality things

26:55

that you have to think about

26:57

and I'm and so even just

27:00

recognizing that it's not personal and

27:02

you know if somebody doesn't bring

27:04

me in for a keynote it

27:07

doesn't mean that I'm a bad

27:09

person or my keynote's not good

27:11

or my book's not big enough

27:14

yet that's a great by the

27:16

way shameless tactic is to add

27:18

the word yet to the end

27:20

of any sentence that starts with

27:22

I can't or I'm not a

27:24

successful enough keynote speaker or my

27:27

book hasn't hit the New York

27:29

Times yet. I'm not the leader

27:31

I want to be yet. That

27:33

in and of itself is an

27:35

incredibly powerful antidote to imposter syndrome.

27:37

It helps you be shameless in

27:39

all the right ways. And yes,

27:41

there is there is such thing as taking

27:43

these traits too far. I call those trait

27:46

traps and you do want to be mindful,

27:48

but I do find that For the majority

27:50

of people the bigger issue is they don't

27:52

dial the confidence of enough They have too

27:54

much imposter syndrome, which is natural like I

27:57

do also tons of it. I've given a

27:59

few examples here about things I'm actually

28:01

struggling with as a new entrepreneur and

28:03

much more insecure than I was as

28:05

a Google executive where I felt like

28:07

I had all this credibility and this

28:09

reputation and led this huge program and

28:12

ran this awesome operations team. I feel

28:14

it. all day long. The fear, the

28:16

imposter syndrome, the gremlins, the, is this

28:18

going to work? Why did I do

28:20

this? Did I make a terrible decision?

28:22

Leaving Google. And so like me, I

28:24

think others struggle more with the I'm

28:27

not good enough. I'm scared to take

28:29

action. What if it doesn't work? I

28:31

lose my ability to be productive because

28:33

I'm living in fear. To me, again,

28:35

that is the blocker. It's time boxing,

28:37

it's great. The to-do list, it's great.

28:39

Itemizing your to-do list, sure, the four

28:41

D's delay, drop, delegate, do, like, yes,

28:44

it's all good stuff, but I fundamentally

28:46

feel that what blocks you, those are

28:48

good to have, but the biggest enemy

28:50

to me is getting in my own

28:52

way and picking the easy thing to

28:54

do on any given day, like last

28:56

night, I knew I needed to be

28:58

memorizing my keynote, this one section that's

29:01

new for my Google. keynote tomorrow that

29:03

I'm doing as their keynote for International

29:05

Women's Day. I knew that's what I

29:07

needed to be doing, but it was

29:09

hard and I was scared and I

29:11

was picturing myself up there and flubbing

29:13

the words and saying it wrong and

29:16

I was just nervous about the whole

29:18

event in general and so what did

29:20

I do instead I picked easy things

29:22

to check off the to-do list I

29:24

picked small stuff I picked responding to

29:26

people in my inbox just delaying what

29:28

was the big scary meaty thing I

29:30

had to do so again to me

29:33

it wasn't the time blocking or the

29:35

way I handled my to-do list it

29:37

was just the fear because that was

29:39

the scarier project even though that's what

29:41

I should have done first. We can

29:43

all relate to that. We can all

29:45

say that, oh, you know what, I'll

29:47

just get, I'll do some easy stuff

29:50

as a warm up and then. Yeah,

29:52

totally. That's one of the other justifying.

29:54

Just get my head in the game.

29:56

But then three hours later, oh, you

29:58

know, that's it. Your work chunk, your

30:00

work block is gone and you never

30:02

did the big thing because we're scared

30:05

and I am too. And the thing

30:07

is that it's not that it ever

30:09

truly goes away. I mean, you've done

30:11

step after step after step after step

30:13

of stepping up. One of the things

30:15

that I've noticed that you talk about

30:17

is getting over that discomfort of self-promotion

30:19

is to reframe it. And so one

30:22

of the things that you did was

30:24

you were reframing, you know, instead of,

30:26

I'm so great, let me come speak

30:28

for you or do this workshop for

30:30

you. Instead, it's you're sharing valuable insights.

30:32

You have something to offer. Well, and

30:34

not only that, but you totally teed

30:36

up one of great tools, which is

30:39

called woo with you. And I would

30:41

say this is even something that falls

30:43

under what I would call manipulative, building

30:45

relationships through empathy, and in a way

30:47

that last, and that you provide mutual

30:49

value exchange. So let's say in that

30:51

email, I said, actually this happened once.

30:54

It was after a keynote I gave

30:56

and someone sent me a gift. basket

30:58

it was lovely and so my first

31:00

draft of the email every single sentence

31:02

started with I well this tool is

31:04

called woo with you flip all of

31:06

your I statements to you statements whenever

31:08

you're trying to influence someone or build

31:11

a relationship or even just win their

31:13

favor right so it said something like

31:15

I loved the gift basket you sent

31:17

I had so much fun doing this

31:19

keynote for your team I am excited

31:21

to pilot this new leadership training I

31:23

have if you're interested and I looked

31:26

at that draft and I'm like oh

31:28

my gosh this is so focused on

31:30

me. What if I just did a

31:32

quick flipping from I to you with

31:34

you? So I rewrote it and it

31:36

said, you sent the most delicious gift

31:38

basket. Your team was a dream to

31:40

partner with. You have such an incredible

31:43

set of leaders that if I can

31:45

add value by coming in and doing

31:47

my manager training, I'd be delighted to

31:49

do so. And think about the difference

31:51

of how it feels to receive that.

31:53

I got one the other day from

31:55

someone who came to a master class

31:57

on negotiations, and I think she was

32:00

doing this intentionally, but if she was

32:02

or she wasn't, it felt so good

32:04

to read. The first line of the

32:06

DM from her on LinkedIn was, you

32:08

were radio. in that master class. And

32:10

I was like, oh, I love it,

32:12

whatever you have to say next, I'm

32:15

all ears because it honestly felt good.

32:17

I have an ego, you have an

32:19

ego. It's nice to share a compliment

32:21

with someone and make them look like

32:23

the hero, not you. That helps you

32:25

in the business. That helps you build

32:27

the relationship and that helps you manipulate

32:29

the situation into one where you are

32:32

winning and they are too. And it

32:34

comes across as and in fact it

32:36

might actually be. talking with them instead

32:38

of at. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And

32:40

which is one of my favorite tools

32:42

from the bossy chapter, which is just

32:44

the courage to listen and lead. And

32:46

that when you listen with humility, listening

32:49

to understand not just to respond, that

32:51

is what builds depth of relationship. As

32:53

a leader or as any partner or

32:55

friend. One of the things that I

32:57

don't think a lot of people will

32:59

ask you is, you're using this word

33:01

brutal as one of the traits. And

33:04

this is definitely a productivity word in

33:06

my mind, or at least the way

33:08

that you refer to it with a

33:10

subchapter title of drawing lines and sticking

33:12

to them. And I think this is

33:14

something that a lot of people that

33:16

are thinking about productivity. They're thinking of

33:18

boundaries and, you know, I've got to

33:21

put boundaries in place because I have

33:23

a tendency to burn out. put out

33:25

a lot more feelers for all these

33:27

things I want to do, but they

33:29

also are afraid because they think they're

33:31

going to overcommit. How do we balance

33:33

that? Yeah, so you say yes to

33:35

the big and you say no to

33:38

the small and this is so hard

33:40

to do for me, for you, for

33:42

anybody listening or watching. So what's big?

33:44

Big is that's Take this in a

33:46

work context, for example. Big is the

33:48

Marquis strategy project for H2, that's important

33:50

to your VP and important to the

33:53

company and important for your career. It's

33:55

increasing customer satisfaction, 12% year-over-year growth. Or

33:57

if you work out an ice cream

33:59

company, it's launching that new vegan vanilla

34:01

ice cream line. Like that's big. What's

34:03

small is being the 18th. person to

34:05

reply all on the happy birthday Jimmy

34:07

email or going to every meeting where

34:10

you neither add value nor derive value

34:12

or saying yes every time someone says

34:14

hey can you hop on a quick

34:16

call because you feel bad saying no.

34:18

Brutal is the courage to have boundaries

34:20

to protect your time your energy and

34:22

your priorities and it's the power of

34:24

no because People pleasing pleases no one

34:27

and it keeps you small. It keeps

34:29

you scared. Brutality is much cleaner. It's

34:31

actually far kinder in the end. And

34:33

it's something that's very hard for people

34:35

to leverage. Me too. And it can

34:37

be protecting your time, right? It can

34:39

be being mindful of saying yes to

34:42

the big and no to the small,

34:44

which by the way, if you say

34:46

yes to too many small things, that's

34:48

what I call nap work. My mom

34:50

actually coined to this turn. It stands

34:52

for not actually promoteable. always saying yes

34:54

to be the person to plan the

34:56

off-site, always saying yes to organizing the

34:59

company holiday party, always saying yes to

35:01

taking notes in the meeting, right? We

35:03

all want to be team players. That

35:05

stuff matters for culture and for collaboration

35:07

and for teamwork. But if you're always

35:09

the person who is leaned on for

35:11

that, then mind the balance, right? Dial

35:13

that nap work, that small stuff back

35:16

by maybe 10% so you can put

35:18

your thumb on the scale for the

35:20

big stuff if you're doing more than,

35:22

let's say, 20, 30% nap work in

35:24

any given quarter. So say yes to

35:26

the big, say no to the spall,

35:28

be mindful of nap work, but that's

35:31

really about being brutal about your time.

35:33

There's also an element of being brutal

35:35

about your words and your decisions. For

35:37

example, my good friend Kim called off

35:39

her wedding three days before the wedding.

35:41

That was not an easy call for

35:43

her to make. That was brutal seeming,

35:45

right? What's better to have an awkward

35:48

conversation, a brutal conversation three days before

35:50

the wedding and send back the gifts

35:52

and see if you can get your

35:54

deposit back on the caterer or three

35:56

years in an unhappy marriage? Unfortunately, I

35:58

find that people feel so uncomfortable having

36:00

these brutal or candid or challenging conversations.

36:02

and they'll suffer. for three years of

36:05

an unhappy relationship with a spouse or

36:07

a colleague or a friend because they

36:09

won't have the hard three-minute conversation. So

36:11

you can be brutal about your calendar,

36:13

you can also be brutal with your

36:15

words in a thoughtful way. Or if

36:17

you're a manager and you're delivering a

36:20

performance review, you know, I once went

36:22

into my performance review meeting and it

36:24

took seven minutes of preamble before we

36:26

got to the actual score that quarter.

36:28

And I was so stressed out and

36:30

I wish my manager had just been

36:32

brutal and told me the score writer.

36:34

away. And the score was fine, but

36:37

it was a painful seven minutes leading

36:39

up to it. So if you're delivering

36:41

bad news, if you've got to be

36:43

brutal about something, say it within the

36:45

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38:03

it might sting in the moment, right? It

38:05

probably will. But then everybody can move

38:07

on with a very clear picture of

38:09

where things stand, right? If you're in

38:12

a relationship. Most people say, oh, I

38:14

think we should talk. I'm not sure

38:16

how I feel about this relationship anymore.

38:18

But what they really mean is it's

38:20

over, I'm moving out, right? And so

38:22

this can go on for days, for

38:24

weeks, for months in this kind of

38:26

uncertain area. And I think most people

38:28

would agree, even though it's really hard

38:30

to have these candid conversations, ultimately everyone's

38:33

better off when there is the cleanness

38:35

of the people who have the wild

38:37

courage. to say things clearly, say them

38:39

plainly, say them in the first 90

38:41

seconds, for example. Well, the only

38:43

wrong decision is making no decision.

38:45

And again, we regret the inaction, I

38:48

think, more than the action. Again, I

38:50

think that when fear is the root,

38:52

when we lack wild courage, the input

38:55

stops the output. So if the goal

38:57

is closing the gap between input and

38:59

output, then to me there is an

39:01

element of no action in there. It's

39:03

like if fear is the wild courage,

39:05

then that will stop you from action,

39:08

you literally will freeze. And I've been

39:10

there, I'm still there regularly, like every

39:12

day, every week in certain situations, but

39:14

that is a blocker to productivity. And

39:16

to me, the biggest blocker to productivity

39:18

is inaction. And in fact, that really

39:20

brings to mind one thing that was

39:22

kind of a lingering overall or overarching

39:24

theme for me that this book is

39:27

when it comes to the topic of

39:29

productivity, is that bottleneck effect. We are

39:31

our own bottleneck in so many ways,

39:33

and you're coming at that that. as

39:35

the main core problem from all these

39:37

different possible angles. And I mean, we

39:39

do all of them, you know, for

39:41

example, one of the other things that

39:44

we do is we err on the

39:46

side of not acting instead of acting,

39:48

right? And yet that's yet another

39:50

bottleneck. It's everything, you know, it's

39:52

a clogged drain. It's because we're

39:54

overthinking, we're over feeling, we're not

39:56

acting at all. And so how

39:58

do we get out of that

40:00

analysis paralysis. Right, so I can relate

40:03

to this, because this is probably the

40:05

hardest trade. This is the reckless trade.

40:07

It's the the courage to take healthy

40:09

risks. You know, when you're on the

40:12

fence, think fast and fearless. Do it

40:14

better to take some action than spend,

40:16

you know, all your days analyzing the

40:18

possible outcome of every mistake. So that

40:21

is the goal of reckless, but this

40:23

one is the hardest one for me.

40:25

I will admit, I was hiking with

40:27

some friends in Montana, and they were

40:30

ahead of me on the trail and

40:32

there. a ranger, a park ranger, and

40:34

I was trying to optimize for

40:36

every, for like to pick the

40:38

best path. And I was like,

40:40

okay, well, which one has more

40:42

construction? They were doing some construction.

40:44

Which one has the nicer view?

40:46

Is one of the paths muddier

40:48

than the other? Which has more

40:50

elevation gain? So, you know, I

40:52

can get a good workout. Is

40:55

this one out in back or

40:57

is it a loop? And my

40:59

friends up had were like, Jenny,

41:01

it's all gorgeous, Maybe we're analyzing

41:03

which industry to move to if we're not

41:05

happy in our job. Maybe we're deciding whether

41:07

you should or should not ask your boss

41:09

for something or you should or should not

41:12

break up with somebody. The analysis paralysis can

41:14

be plaguing and so because that was an

41:16

example from hiking I call this move then

41:18

map right again action not thinking provides clarity

41:20

so if you start moving you kind of

41:23

live into the answer do you like this

41:25

path right or this job or this industry

41:27

is it muddy or is it feeling good

41:29

whether politics at the company you can't deal

41:32

with and you navigate through that but

41:34

sitting there and trying to do just

41:36

endless pro-con lists will again result in

41:38

inaction the trait trap of reckless taking

41:40

it too far. would be doing things

41:42

that are dangerous, you know, physically dangerous

41:45

or emotionally dangerous. Sign on the bottom

41:47

line and pay your taxes on time.

41:49

Don't be reckless there. But you know,

41:51

when it comes to life's big moves

41:53

and big adventures, take a risk and

41:55

bet on yourself. Go move to Paris

41:58

for that semester abroad. Change industry. and

42:00

try your hand in marketing if you've

42:02

always done sales. Lean into AI and

42:04

take an online course, see what you

42:07

can recklessly learn as you get a

42:09

sense of, you know, where you might

42:11

be able to bolster your skills with

42:14

more AI knowledge. That's what I mean

42:16

by reckless. Yeah, and we have

42:18

this kind of delusional sense that,

42:20

oh, you know what, if I

42:22

gather more information, then I can

42:24

have more, I can have certainty.

42:26

I don't believe certainties even a

42:28

possibility, but. It's one of those

42:30

things where it's like, well, here's

42:32

the real way to gather more

42:34

data. Take an action. And then

42:36

you take that step, and then

42:38

you've got another perspective, another view,

42:40

another data point. And so then

42:42

you're doing that smart risk taking

42:44

instead of, because you're not advocating,

42:46

when you say reckless, you're not

42:49

saying, have reckless ignorance and just

42:51

go. All of it, no, you're

42:53

saying smart risk-taking. Yeah, exactly. This

42:56

just came up on another conversation

42:58

I had, yet intelligent risk-taking. And

43:00

the idea is to get out

43:02

of the analysis paralysis. It was

43:04

incredibly hard for me to leave

43:06

Google. I had this awesome job

43:09

and I loved my team and

43:11

I thought I'd retire at Google

43:13

being there for another 15 years. And

43:15

because I had all this pressure being

43:17

the breadwinner for my family and... feeling

43:19

like we had so much stability, it

43:21

was hard for me to be reckless

43:23

and think, okay, well, what if there's

43:25

something else out there? But I had

43:27

to separate the truths from the tails.

43:29

Again, I was my own worst enemy

43:31

spending a year going back and forth

43:33

making this decision and I wish I

43:35

could have that year back and I

43:37

wish I had been reckless sooner and

43:39

just, you know, decided to go for

43:41

it sooner. But I had to separate

43:44

the truths from the tails. Truths are

43:46

verifiable facts. Tales are the stories we

43:48

create to make sense of those truths.

43:50

So what were the truths of this

43:52

conundrum for me? I would be leaving

43:54

Google. I would no longer be employed

43:56

there. I would be making less money,

43:58

most likely, my first year out of

44:00

Google would be a writer and a

44:03

keynote speaker. But what were the tales

44:05

that I created that made it so

44:07

hard for me to take that reckless

44:09

move or take action or bet on

44:11

myself or take this exciting risk? Well,

44:14

one tale was my parents are going

44:16

to be disappointed in me because they're

44:18

going to think that I'm, you know,

44:20

going to be a starving artist. We're

44:22

going to have to move out of

44:24

our beautiful house in Boulder and downsize

44:27

because we'll never make money again. My

44:29

kids are going to be mad because

44:31

they love coming to Google and

44:33

getting all the free snacks. I'll

44:35

never get hired anywhere again because

44:37

I'm 45 and I will have

44:39

had this gap, you know, with

44:42

no appointment as I'm going. for

44:44

things I just said, tail tail

44:46

tail, tail. But it keeps you

44:48

scared, it keeps you small. And

44:50

when you recognize, first of all,

44:52

the truths, the verifiable facts versus

44:54

these stories you're creating that hold

44:56

you back. And then after you

44:58

recognize them, you can rewrite the tale,

45:00

the verifiable facts versus these stories you're

45:03

creating that hold you back. And then

45:05

after you recognize them, you don't have

45:07

to take it that far. for two

45:09

years, I probably am pretty employable still,

45:11

maybe even more employable after a Google

45:13

exec role and putting a big book

45:15

out into the world. I bet I

45:17

can get another job, so if this

45:20

doesn't work two years down the line,

45:22

that is a really great backup plan.

45:24

And that is a story that I

45:26

told myself, a new, more empowering tale

45:28

that allowed me to take this reckless

45:30

move. Well, in a narrative like

45:32

that is an ongoing story, much

45:35

like how there's no, I mean,

45:37

you've given a couple examples of

45:39

pivotal moments from your own experience

45:41

where you followed through not knowing

45:44

what the outcome was going to

45:46

be and have hindsight now to

45:48

be able to look back and,

45:50

you know, decipher, discern and share

45:53

those experiences in hopes of stirring

45:55

others on. But it's a daily

45:57

lived out story of a thing.

45:59

Courage is a thing that we're going

46:02

to have to walk in daily by choice.

46:04

Little courage deposits absolutely and I do I

46:06

mean one of those 100 emails I sent

46:08

out to Actually this was different this was

46:11

asking a fellow author to promote my book

46:13

which you know when a book comes out

46:15

with authors have author friends and they always

46:17

Hope that they'll help endorse the book or

46:20

put it out there you know to their

46:22

audience and I got an email back that

46:24

wasn't just neutral. It wasn't just a polite

46:26

no. It wasn't ghosting with no response. It

46:29

was a bonified Jenny You pushed it too

46:31

far and I don't like that you asked

46:33

this of me. This is a very famous

46:36

author that everybody would recognize this name. And

46:38

it was really, really hard. And it was

46:40

really, I was really disappointed in myself. But

46:42

at the end of the day, I was

46:45

living my values. And that's the worst case

46:47

scenario, right? Is you get a very... upsetting

46:49

email. This was a very upsetting email that

46:51

was very strongly worded and it told me

46:54

that I fell into a trade trap that

46:56

I pushed it too far and I didn't

46:58

read the room appropriately knowing that this particular

47:00

person with this size audience actually would not

47:03

appreciate the ask. And so sometimes you do

47:05

get your risks slapped or it does impact

47:07

a friendship or a mentorship or a business

47:10

relationship. But that's okay. You can move on.

47:12

I'm still recovering from it. But I want

47:14

to acknowledge that it is hard and you

47:16

can still push through with these little courage

47:19

deposits every day because it's not like I

47:21

live with wild courage and never have hard

47:23

moments. I do every hour. Yes. Well, and

47:25

it's one of those things where, again, this

47:28

is an example of a misstep, but that's

47:30

a stepping stone. You're sharing that, actually, that

47:32

you're, you know, transparent enough to say it's

47:34

hard. wish it didn't happen, but how can

47:37

I, how, oh, that's a call for me

47:39

to check myself and make sure I read

47:41

the room better moving forward. Yeah, and I

47:44

love Annie Duke's work on Thinking in Betts

47:46

where she opens that book with like this

47:48

football, Super Bowl, final play where the coach

47:50

makes this call and then the outcome isn't

47:53

what they want, they lose the game and

47:55

then. in the next day, all over the

47:57

papers it says, Coach XYZ makes terrible call,

47:59

but Annie Duke argues in her work that,

48:02

no, the call was good based on the

48:04

weather, the players, the play, you know, the

48:06

history of the success of this play, the

48:08

call was correct, the outcome was undesirable. And

48:11

so even looking back on that, I still

48:13

haven't decided because this is a pretty fresh

48:15

wound for me. I haven't decided if I

48:17

made the wrong choice or And I think

48:20

I probably did make the wrong choice, but

48:22

there might be other times where it's still

48:24

the right choice, even if the outcome is

48:27

not what you would like. Yes. Exactly. And

48:29

the decision was still just was still correct

48:31

because otherwise you'd say, oh, I didn't get

48:33

the outcome I wanted. I should never do

48:36

this again. What I want is to encourage

48:38

people to know keep doing it, do it

48:40

in the right way, tweak, refine your approach.

48:42

And when you're asking somebody for something or

48:45

pitching or building relationships or whatever it is

48:47

or betting on yourself, refine the approach. But

48:49

I do think more people again need to

48:51

dial up their wild courage as opposed to

48:54

get a no and never attempt to have

48:56

wild courage again. Yeah, don't let that send

48:58

you into the spiral of analysis paralysis all

49:01

over again. Yeah, exactly. I definitely did not

49:03

sleep well that night. This was just a

49:05

few nights ago. It still stinks. Clearly. So

49:07

clearly, there's not some like you take one

49:10

chance and it goes right and it's happily

49:12

ever after this is an ongoing lifestyle and

49:14

you learn to grow into these attributes, these

49:16

traits. in hopes that you're learning and lifelong

49:19

learning how to be fearless even in the

49:21

face of fear and have wild courage. Jenny,

49:23

I have loved to talk with you. I

49:25

love this book and I love what it's

49:28

going to do for everybody that's going to

49:30

pick it up. I want to start pointing

49:32

people to where they can find out more

49:35

about you and what you're working on as

49:37

well as where they can grab the book

49:39

and all the good things that come along

49:41

with it. Yeah, definitely. Well, the books available

49:44

available. e-book, pick up the hard cover. It's

49:46

the kind of book you're going to want

49:48

to take notes in. So if you're indifferent

49:50

to format, it is a great book to

49:53

read in hard cover. I love giving free

49:55

stuff to listeners. So I have an awesome

49:57

guide of tips and tricks and scripts to

49:59

help you say no. This goes back to

50:02

being selfish and being brutal in the right

50:04

way. So that's at it's jennywood.com/say no because

50:06

it's hard to say no to projects and

50:08

favors and favors and meetings and meetings and

50:11

meetings. And this gives you the language to

50:13

do it in a really thoughtful way that.

50:15

makes you not look like a jerk. So

50:18

that's ITS jnnywood.com/say no. Perfect and I'll list

50:20

all of those things in the show notes

50:22

for this episode. Jenny it's been great talking

50:24

with you. Thank you so much for having

50:27

the courage to write this book and for

50:29

sharing your experience and insights with us. Yeah,

50:31

my pleasure. This book did take courage because

50:33

I could get canceled for it, right? This

50:36

is definitely pushing the envelope with a chapter

50:38

called Manipulative and one called Selfish, but I'm

50:40

going for it and we'll see what happens.

50:42

We're going to redefine those words, so thank

50:45

you again Jenny for sharing and everybody go

50:47

grab the book. Thanks so much for having

50:49

me. Well, that's another podcast crossed off your

50:52

listening to do list. I hope that you

50:54

got a nudge and or reminder of the

50:56

agency that you do have in your life.

50:58

And even if you don't have any certainty

51:01

as to how things are going to turn

51:03

out, that taking those risks, the smart way,

51:05

as Jenny would, would say, can help you

51:07

get more of what you're wanting to get

51:10

out of life. I know so many of

51:12

us don't take even small steps or risks

51:14

at all, and so much about living a

51:16

productive life. is about taking action and we're

51:19

so scared to take action sometimes and just

51:21

stick with the regular list of things we're

51:23

doing that I get it it can be

51:26

hard it can be tough I'm taking some

51:28

risks currently right now in my own life

51:30

so I would encourage you to do the

51:32

same if you found this episode helpful I

51:35

would love for you to share it with

51:37

somebody you know needs to hear it go

51:39

to the show notes at beyond the to

51:41

do list that com or that button

51:44

in your in your app

51:46

of choice choice listening

51:48

to this right now.

51:50

Send it on over

51:53

to somebody. Let them

51:55

know you were thinking

51:57

of them and that

52:00

you think they could

52:02

use a little courage

52:04

in their life. they could

52:06

Thank you so much

52:09

for sharing. life Thanks again

52:11

for listening thanks I'll

52:13

see you next episode. episode

52:48

time.