0:16

when welcome back to another episode of beyond

0:19

the to do list i'm your host eric fisher

0:22

and this is the show where i talked to the people behind

0:24

the productivity this week i'm excited to share

0:26

with you a conversation i had with seat

0:28

sellers tee this is the director

0:30

of off works at the

0:32

moss a live storytelling

0:35

series and podcast it's

0:37

a very popular podcast effective been around

0:40

since i think i've known of podcast

0:42

back in the summer of two thousand and five

0:44

it is a webby award winning

0:46

podcast and caesar

0:48

storyteller a director they are at

0:51

math works in this conversation we talk

0:53

about her new book how to tell

0:55

a story the essential guide to

0:57

memorable storytelling from

0:59

the moss and in this conversation we

1:01

dive into that book we talk about

1:04

why storytelling is so

1:06

important you may remember that aspects

1:08

of story scripting

1:11

etc as we've talked to

1:13

donald miller in the past on the show and

1:15

how those aspects and

1:18

principles of storytelling can be

1:20

adapted to live a good life

1:22

and that is partially what we tap into into this

1:24

conversation but more so ever just

1:27

storytelling as a productivity still on

1:29

a macro level about telling your

1:31

story overall getting

1:33

clarity on your own story to

1:35

tell your story and what part of your

1:37

story needs to be told at given moments

1:40

and then even on a micro level in

1:42

terms of persuasion and getting

1:44

others on board to something your telling

1:47

a story about for persuasion sakes

1:49

whether it's a presentation or

1:52

it's just getting up and having a conversation

1:54

at public speaking it's writing it's it's podcast

1:57

things we talk about all of

1:59

that in this converse so this is

2:01

definitely a skill to add

2:03

to your productivity tool kit

2:05

and i'll just get out of away and say enjoyed this

2:08

conversation with treat sellers

2:12

this week it is my privilege to welcome

2:14

to the show seat tellers seat

2:16

welcome to beyond the to do list

2:19

i thank you for having me

2:20

honestly i was kind of geek out and a little super excited

2:23

when i got the pets about the

2:25

moss doing a book because i've

2:27

been a fan of them off for a very long time in

2:29

some people might not know what that is so let's

2:31

start there and just say what is the moth

2:34

for podcast listeners who

2:36

has not been aware of what it is

2:38

sure so we're are not for profit

2:40

organization this is our twenty fifth anniversary

2:43

were dedicated to the art and craft of storytelling

2:46

so we help people tell true

2:48

stories from their lives on stage

2:50

and with out notes and those

2:52

shows are recorded you can hear us on our

2:54

peabody award winning radio our you to

2:56

hear us on our podcast which is downloaded

2:59

over ninety million times per year you

3:01

can read some of the series in our completions

3:03

a and you can take workshops with us and

3:05

then this year we also released about how

3:07

to tell a story so we now do what we

3:10

do in workshops is now written and committed

3:12

to the page

3:13

very very cool i've gotta say like

3:15

this is a killer book this is one of

3:17

those ones that's gonna help people all

3:19

across the spectrum of what they're doing because

3:22

and , an ascii this in a second what do you think why

3:24

is storytelling so important for me from a productivity

3:27

angle it's got a macro and micro element

3:29

the macro element is if

3:31

you're telling your life story overall

3:34

which is you know many many many chapters

3:36

by holding that skill by getting better at

3:38

that you bring clarity to

3:41

your life which brings the ability to three

3:43

hours better in the moment as well

3:45

as plan and execute but then obviously

3:48

in the micro level when it comes to work

3:50

and productivity getting people on board persuading

3:53

people whether that's yourself or

3:55

others and stories are

3:57

and big part of that when it comes to like the

4:00

assistance public speaking or

4:02

writing or podcasting like we're

4:04

doing right now it's a huge deal

4:07

what was the impetus was the catalyst here for

4:09

why is storytelling so important and

4:11

why was a moth formed to teach that

4:13

still my goodness eric you sort

4:15

of the

4:15

filmmaker should hang up because i feel like you really mail

4:18

there the you know the

4:20

person you said you know unlike raising my

4:22

hands and they are it's exactly that i think the beauty

4:24

of storytelling as a form as a communication

4:27

tool as awaited can act

4:29

as an expression of creativity as a community

4:31

builder of all the things is that clarity

4:33

it's sad truth that is the north star

4:35

that is the priority whether you're telling a story

4:37

on stage whether you're telling a story

4:40

open up a business presentation whether you're getting

4:42

a wedding toast and all of the ways that we use story

4:44

crafting a story really sort of considering

4:47

the pieces of your experience in the pieces of your

4:49

life and looking for the real

4:51

and true meaning of that the end

4:53

result is compelling is the

4:55

most interesting is you

4:57

know a tremendous product in and of itself

4:59

but the process of doing that like the consideration

5:02

of that of getting that clarity to your point about

5:04

productivity and efficiency you have

5:06

a clearer understanding of all all

5:08

of the events leading up to this day it's

5:10

has made you informed you and

5:13

connect you to yourself in a way that i think

5:15

is truly unique in supreme to storytelling

5:18

i'd love to dive into

5:20

both those paths their

5:22

the macro and that micro can as

5:25

ice outlined his as you talked about it's

5:27

macro level somebody is

5:29

never heard of you know telling their own

5:31

story in other words somebody walks

5:33

in and enters the atmosphere

5:36

or the orbit of the moss and

5:38

they're interested in what's being done in

5:40

other words they see people telling a

5:42

story they're drawn to it because that's

5:44

naturally what a story does but then

5:46

what are the next steps for that person once they've been

5:48

hooked and they kind of safe room i

5:50

wonder if i can

5:53

do that or should do that's how do

5:55

you assure that person in to

5:57

i don't know what the next step is written you know it's seconds

5:59

that up and slash confidence slash

6:02

practice towards crafting stories

6:05

and their own story

6:06

sure it was so i'll say this or book is

6:08

dedicated to the untold stories and all of

6:10

us and our dream like the ideal

6:12

audience for this bucks are people

6:14

that are exactly like what you're describing people that

6:17

are like me be interested in storytelling but

6:19

don't believe that they have a story to tell or

6:21

don't know how to find that story and

6:23

the goal is of this book by the end of that they'll

6:25

find not only a story but stories

6:28

from their lives were a multitude of stories with many

6:30

compelling stories in our lives but to get there

6:32

you know we have really simple prompts

6:35

to get new end so here's an example like

6:37

speak about is your life with a movie

6:39

what is a scene that has to be included

6:41

we think about teens moments we think

6:44

about some people come to us with a really

6:46

big experience like media major death

6:48

or maybe a major lightship than they don't know how to

6:50

quote tell that story and

6:52

then we just started to zoom in like sort

6:54

of closer and closer and closer one of the scenes

6:56

of the story how do you feel like these experiences

6:59

have affected you in philly to are

7:01

different before and after these experiences

7:04

and then also just thinking about

7:07

when you go to a pretty what's the story

7:09

that everyone always has you tell and maybe that's

7:11

the starting point for the sort of larger

7:13

maybe bieber story that you'll build public what

7:15

are the things that kind of stick with you that feel like

7:17

a part of you that we can use as a starting off

7:19

point to start to have a conversation and kind

7:21

of on earth there deeper me and

7:24

interesting so is there are like a beginning

7:26

message to someone who's not

7:28

yet done any mining of

7:31

their own memories defines you know hey what

7:33

are my best stories oh yeah i didn't even think of that

7:35

being something that you know other people would

7:37

resonate with there was a formative moment

7:39

for myself how do we begin to mine those

7:42

memories

7:43

well as i mean they're set of their sons of story

7:45

pumps there's tons of exercises you know you

7:47

can be certain by making a list of

7:49

all the things that are true about you again

7:51

thinking about the scenes of your life that use the

7:53

sort of go over over and over again wonder

7:55

that kind of experiences that you share

7:57

over and over again but i would say if you're

7:59

asking what the compelling story

8:01

a compelling my story and i would consider

8:03

month to be the best form of storytelling

8:06

that is my by his superiors the

8:08

two months essential pieces are it has

8:10

to be a story that the storyteller cares about

8:13

you know we can talk about like the birth to death

8:15

the big thing you know the great love like obviously

8:17

we hear about this thing but it can be as small

8:19

as know learning how to make the best

8:22

cup of coffee is that something that's important

8:24

to you with that's something that ties into the world

8:26

and experience that you're sharing you just

8:28

have to care deeply and be able to communicate

8:30

that cheaply to your audience and her and

8:32

is that experience has had seen soon same

8:35

way and not like i started

8:37

as a freshman art student and ended

8:39

our graduating with the business degree like that's

8:41

fine that's an external change but like what

8:43

internally how is this experience truly

8:46

affected who you are as are person at least

8:48

for the timeframe in which in story

8:50

takes place that you're telling

8:52

gotcha okay well and i am familiar

8:54

with a few different books the talk about storytelling

8:57

and comparing it to a movie and scripting

8:59

your life and all of that it's we've even had

9:01

some conversations about that on the show in the past

9:04

there are obviously foundational

9:07

pieces to a story been

9:09

things that make a good story and sometimes

9:12

our life as it plays out

9:14

especially any specific instance

9:16

that were telling a story about it

9:19

doesn't always have a neat little beginning

9:21

middle and end though when we want to tell

9:24

the story we don't want to spin it or

9:26

polish if we don't want to live by bread

9:28

we want to use the existing

9:31

experience of that story

9:33

as play to than mold something

9:36

that's hella bowl publicly

9:38

yes so yeah were

9:40

never only one way

9:41

so it's there are many ways to tell sort

9:43

of any experience in your lives and your

9:45

goal as a storyteller is decide what

9:48

is the best telling of this story

9:50

that i want to tell i'm of a couple of lines

9:52

on that you know if you're telling a story just to

9:54

be engaging you're telling a story on

9:56

stage at the mosque let's say or on seeds

9:58

in a store telling shower what have you you

10:01

still have to make those choices he still have

10:03

to say like what is the story here that i'm going

10:05

to tell an understanding

10:07

that you're going to be editing outlet once you have an idea

10:09

of that once you have like media theme or a through

10:11

line that you can use as an editing tool

10:14

though i might just be concretely about things like that

10:16

so like less said about it really tell a story

10:18

about the time in high school when you crash your parents

10:20

car you went out without permission with your

10:22

parents are you crashed and that's a story so

10:24

there's a couple of seems you can use to tell that story

10:27

it might be a story about responsibility

10:29

in my be a story about rebellion and might be

10:31

a store the about your relationship if your father like,

10:33

there's many different sort of lenses that you could

10:35

use to that series of events so

10:38

you have to decide what seen

10:40

for this the most true then how

10:42

do i that? what information does? my listener

10:44

need some bacon? follow me through that

10:46

emotional experience if it and that

10:48

goes back to a little bit coming back to think like

10:51

when i crush the part what did i feel that

10:53

i feel heartbreak because i realized

10:55

that my father would know that i'm not the good

10:57

child that he had rate you have defeated disputed

10:59

my family's did i feel the rush because

11:02

it's the first time i did something bad that

11:04

you know it again we're going back to this on a c

11:06

and then that will help you kind of honor's

11:08

with the theme is of your story and then you can start

11:10

piecing together what you need to seats

11:13

that story and it could be sinhalese

11:15

you realize you need to seen with you

11:17

and your father when you were

11:19

you know eight years old when you realize

11:22

that your father was like the pillar of what is

11:24

right and wrong for you i'm taking us into a really deep

11:26

fantasy world i hope you're with

11:27

that totally they're following along

11:29

that's just are you telling a story

11:31

to tell an engaging story that has to the or

11:33

experience so some of it is about

11:35

choice but to the choice is always kind of

11:37

led by reflection now go into

11:40

a setting where you potentially

11:42

have an agenda and telling your story maybe

11:44

again you're using it to open up a business presentation

11:46

you know maybe you are in the business of

11:49

selling numbers so you want

11:51

to tell the story to really underscored the

11:53

degree of safety that was necessary to

11:55

have you walk away from the accidents it's

11:57

still a personal story but now you're looking

11:59

at it to the last the of what is it that i

12:01

want my audience to hear what is it that i

12:03

want my audience to feel emotionally what's

12:05

the journey i want my audience to take with me again

12:08

we're still looking for truth we're still looking for honesty

12:10

were just adding sort of another layer

12:13

to the way we edit and see

12:14

and craft that story gotcha and

12:17

so you mention the word lens and

12:19

i know that there's a part of the book about choosing your lands

12:21

and i think that and as well as you know

12:23

working with working with you're gonna

12:25

include because again you could have the same

12:28

story be a signature

12:30

story for you see your public speaker and

12:32

you're going to be and different audiences presenting

12:34

on a specific topic but you

12:36

tailor it to that specific

12:38

audience each time and so you take that story

12:40

and may be changed the lens and say okay

12:42

what is the audience need to take away with this

12:45

story still fits but i need to you know

12:47

pivot to it's a little bit just to make

12:49

it fit for them and resonate with them

12:51

in a different way than that audience last week

12:53

for example

12:54

i mean we have to remember that every one

12:56

of us hear stories through the lens of our own experiences

12:59

or so you know i'm a person

13:01

living in brooklyn with two young children if someone

13:03

tells a story about living in brooklyn with two young children

13:06

i'm problem in here details but save

13:08

my father who hasn't had young children are many

13:10

years would in here when hearing the same story

13:12

so we have to be hyper aware of that

13:15

when we're going into different audiences

13:17

understanding sort of what they know

13:19

what they need to know to orient

13:21

themselves to the truth of the experience

13:23

that i'm communicating though you

13:25

know our the ball for example

13:28

politically aligned with media they have the same level

13:30

of sophisticated knowledge that i

13:32

do do they have a higher degree of to discuss

13:34

into a not need to give any sort of orienting

13:36

details into the world that i meant but we need

13:38

some orient them very quickly particularly

13:41

at the top of the story to who we are and where

13:43

we are in the world of the stories that

13:45

is something that they can access

13:47

and part of that is a universal of just

13:49

being able and celebrate story being specific and

13:52

storytelling and part of that is a sensitivity

13:54

to perhaps your audience is going to hear

13:57

this story differently depending

13:59

on what details

13:59

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how would you

14:44

suggest somebody who again

14:46

in that same example where there may be speaking

14:49

are telling the story in different contexts

14:52

or instances to especially

14:54

different audiences how can

14:56

they ahead of time find

14:58

out more about that future audience

15:00

and be able to prepare at a time

15:03

to tweak or better tell

15:05

the story to their needs

15:07

the good question and i think it's to be totally

15:10

frank as a somewhat dangerous

15:12

question because we wanna you know we want

15:14

to make sure that the editing that we're doing it for the benefit

15:16

of the story and the communication what

15:18

we're trying to say to more not trying

15:20

to class stories in a way that is

15:23

misleading are untrue to the story that were telling

15:25

i think there's that are a richer deeper conversation

15:28

about the way we show up when we are of

15:30

a community or separate from

15:32

a community and how we

15:34

communicate our stories in a way that takes care of us

15:36

as a teller and also to curb the idea

15:38

you that you know that kind of better that and and

15:40

fed you know i would say it like a

15:42

depending on your contacts let's speak with

15:45

examples like of i am a person

15:47

who is living with cancer who's going to speak to

15:49

a bunch of doctors and specialists

15:51

i know that there's a lot of sort hands that

15:53

i can share my story that they're going to understand

15:56

and that what's most important to me when i'm speaking

15:58

about audience is the caregivers

16:01

understand the peace and experience

16:03

and that's what i bring to the forefront of my story now

16:05

is being a personal story that would be at the forefront

16:07

and we'll probably why you're telling it but

16:09

the understanding of like what is it that they don't

16:11

know and how can i anchored the story

16:14

in the world that they do now so that their sheer

16:16

in my experience they'd come here to hear or

16:18

that i've come to share wasn't i think

16:20

that you were alluding to especially

16:22

when we're talking about one remain truthful

16:24

and we want to not have to change

16:27

all the details or him since things up so

16:29

drastically i'm a big fan of stand

16:31

up comedy and i think that kind of falls

16:33

in that realm here where you know

16:36

stand up comic you're going to go see them you

16:38

kind and know ahead of time if you're

16:40

familiar with them at all what you're gonna

16:42

get now they may pull out some old

16:44

favorites but mostly they're working on new stuff

16:47

or or are using new material that

16:49

they have crafted to a certain extent they actually

16:51

take a lot more leeway as i've heard them talk

16:53

about the craft of joke telling that's not

16:55

exactly the same as storytelling though it's akin

16:57

to it in a certain way but that's when it makes me feel

16:59

like it's okay that person knows

17:01

what they're going to say they're not going to change it for

17:03

the audience because the or to assume the audience

17:06

is here to see me for a reason so i

17:08

don't have to change any

17:09

yeah i mean we didn't go with the stand of

17:11

analogy a little bit further you know when a santa

17:14

busy working on a set in particular but even

17:16

in a more polished environment there is

17:18

a type of dialogue that goes on and i think even

17:20

more so i would say and storytelling although

17:22

it's new campaigns and up with bread strokes but

17:24

like a dialogue where one person is talking so

17:27

i may go into a room i have a general

17:29

idea of who's in the room i'm telling a story

17:31

you know because i want people to be excited

17:34

about something that i care deeply about

17:36

i can sense it's i'm losing audience

17:38

if there's a long rest of silence media get more

17:40

last or than i expected i can sort of pause

17:42

i didn't lean into a joke add another line

17:44

like stories and sand app that lets

17:47

speak to my primary producer being storytelling

17:49

the best stories are not fully

17:51

scripted word for word there and landing

17:54

pads we call them sometimes you know you will from

17:56

idea to idea to idea now she's told

17:58

a story so many time most of the

18:00

words that you say are going to be exactly the same every time

18:02

we just get issue at you know what it's like when you have your

18:05

greatest hit at a party you know can at

18:07

some of the killer beats but you have to

18:09

be willing to take in what the audience

18:11

is giving you may be giving them more space

18:13

may be giving more explanation the moment than you

18:15

think that you needed to or you know

18:17

leaning into humor were leaning into silence

18:20

that is kind of the beauty and i think where the

18:22

true honesty of this form

18:24

comes through was that it's alive when

18:27

it's happening

18:27

in a lot of ways that's when it makes it tough

18:30

resonate more and mean it can happen even in a

18:32

virtual environment there is something though i'd almost

18:34

an element to theater why theater feels

18:36

different than faith watching a movie in a theater

18:38

it's that human connection that storytelling

18:40

that's literally happening in front of

18:43

the actually i come from a theater background

18:45

and when i went to the mosque for the first time in

18:47

two thousand and seven bethany only days

18:49

to biggest thing for me that's haven't

18:51

banned in you know street theater music theater

18:53

comedy you know it's been a part of all of

18:55

that that this was the most connected that i ever

18:58

felt and a theatrical setting time at

19:00

the point where my coauthor sees me because i always

19:02

say this but i will say it for you is sell

19:04

to me like everyone in the room was breathing the same

19:06

breath and that was magic that

19:08

we laugh together that me pause together

19:11

that i was having this incredibly

19:13

this incredibly vulnerable experience

19:15

with two hundred strangers and i

19:17

was like completely hugs that was at for

19:19

me

19:20

speaking of humor one of things that hooks me a lot

19:22

is when humor is used in

19:24

storytelling but it's not the only emotions

19:26

how can we start to know

19:29

the ways to incorporate humor

19:31

as well as other emotions in to

19:34

our storytelling as appropriate

19:36

yeah i mean as appropriate is always the key

19:38

i think you have to look at why

19:40

you are feeling compelled to make a joke

19:42

first the first and foremost

19:44

thou because he were to do

19:46

many things it can shine can light on something

19:48

but it can also emotionally distance so

19:51

are you making are joke making this moment

19:53

because it is too much for you too emotionally

19:56

deal with are you making you joke because

19:58

that is because way to eliminate what you're trying

20:00

to say i would say that's the ladder

20:02

than maybe the jokes days if it's the former

20:05

that's actually a really great tell for

20:07

you as a storyteller because it's someplace

20:09

that you want to it's for further and you can

20:11

explore further and say well what is the honest

20:13

truth of the situation i truly care

20:15

about this and media haven't fully processed

20:18

why i care about this and you can dig into

20:20

that more deeply and say oh wow

20:22

communicated this weight cut the job

20:24

and actually speak the truth

20:26

or i'm telling a joke

20:29

because i'm not ready to tell

20:30

the story

20:31

i'm not ready to get to this truth and to communicate

20:33

district in which case that can

20:35

be your sort of flag to be like what's that the story

20:38

on the shelf for you know a week a month the

20:40

years three years the rest of my life you

20:42

know again and we're using two dozen or so if we

20:44

drank every time i said truth in our conversation

20:46

everyone would go

20:47

drunk right now so my senses

20:49

philip white mosquitoes know

20:52

than in our lives is only also be tragic

20:54

you know even if the saddest moments

20:56

of our lives have moments of levity

20:58

and so the human needs to be honest

21:00

but the humor will come particularly if you're a

21:02

funny percent of your funny person you don't

21:05

just stop laughing for long stretches

21:07

of your life use maybe last laugh that

21:09

about different things so we can be a

21:11

real guest particularly in a heavier story

21:13

to the story feel actually

21:16

as you need in textured as the human

21:18

experiences and not let me pull

21:20

you into the suppressing whole and a lot

21:22

of the time and audience on with needs alas

21:25

early in the story to have permission to last

21:27

to know that what you know we're sort of going on a journey

21:29

together we're not just jumping into a tragic

21:31

pet

21:32

the i agree with that it in one of the things

21:34

that you know when it comes to humor you know some

21:36

people say that the phrase too soon like

21:39

middle joke about something too soon after he had

21:41

as happened but what's funny is

21:43

that literally funny even ah was

21:45

what's interesting is that

21:47

humor can often be a coping mechanism in

21:49

a healthy way though we often have

21:51

heard it used in a negative

21:54

way up my daughter and i seize

21:56

up in her high school years and right now

21:58

she is watching with me the show

22:00

friends on h b o and i never

22:03

seen it, but she'd seen other things and i'm like okay

22:05

you've seen that you got to come back and watch so we were

22:07

kinda just going through it and and obviously one of the characters

22:09

in the show is chandler and that's one of his things

22:11

like ejected quippy but if

22:13

he missed like, it's a defense

22:15

mechanism, when i'm uncomfortable or or are awkward,

22:18

like i make a a joke to kind of break

22:20

the tension or to deflect and

22:22

neither listens is inherently

22:25

bad even deflecting can be good sometimes letting

22:27

the air out of the situation, in

22:30

be great and and obviously one of things that money

22:32

python is good at is just the absurdity

22:34

of life sometimes ask you just

22:37

gotta laugh at it it's crazy ironic

22:39

circumstance but the only

22:41

way to deal with a disaster

22:42

totally totally i mean a thing you know it humor

22:44

speak truth to power which i think that

22:46

was one of my favorite uses for humor and

22:48

comedy but that is you know calling out

22:51

absurdity you know another thing though that

22:53

i think we can look at his great storytellers

22:55

are vulnerable a great story is not

22:57

i was great here's an example of me been great and

22:59

now look at me continuing to be brief

23:02

goodbye you know that not interesting to anyone

23:04

and so schumer is a great way to show

23:06

vulnerability if you can sort of laugh at yourself

23:09

are being awkward being weird or not knowing

23:11

and you know these are the moments that the audience leans

23:13

in for and often times

23:14

there's great humor and not yet at self

23:16

deprivation without doing real

23:19

harm it's just oh hey i'm letting

23:21

you in on the joke that i am also laughing at which

23:23

is me exactly a fitful

23:25

yeah so that's an about

23:27

humor i think for a while and we can someone will

23:29

still last as but i think one

23:31

of the keys here though is you know someone

23:33

may feel like as we're talking about earlier the ideal

23:36

scenario or ideal audience for this book this

23:38

someone who may not be aware

23:40

they have stories have stories or maybe feels like they do

23:43

but isn't sure how to go about it's one

23:45

of the issues they may have is having

23:47

anxiety or nervous

23:50

or just lack of confidence

23:52

in being able to be prepared to

23:54

tell a story especially on a stage

23:57

what are some ways that we can start to

23:59

overcome hang ups so that we can

24:01

traditionally

24:02

yeah so this is where the deceptively

24:05

simple work of the mosque comes in so

24:07

as you may or may not know you go to one of our main

24:09

stage treated events are most of the story

24:11

you her in our podcast and radio we work with

24:13

storytellers one on one to help them

24:15

crafts their stories so that when they get to the stage

24:18

the story is true to themselves and their own voice

24:20

they worked one on one within months director

24:23

including the coauthors of the book to be

24:25

their best selves onstage were not just

24:27

throwing them in front of a microphone and the main seat

24:29

contacts and there's a few ways that you

24:32

can sort of you know replicate

24:34

that experience to some degree in

24:36

your own life and part of that is it's

24:38

and i'm going to see two things that sound almost town or to

24:40

each other but stay with me part of it as

24:42

you do have to spend time preparing

24:45

it is your life it out is your own experience

24:47

we are looking for you know truth on

24:49

stage but like stuff is real thoughtfulness

24:52

that goes into at what seems i'm i'm going to include

24:54

what's true what input you know everything that we've talked

24:56

about in the lead up until now and so

24:59

when you're doing this on your own you you take that

25:01

on yourself but you can also just find

25:03

someone to bounce ideas

25:05

off like when i say this do you hear this

25:08

is this confusing you know kind of when

25:10

making that process to there is like several

25:12

rounds of singing and and actually

25:15

standing up and speaking the words

25:17

that you've made in written down at first out

25:19

loud most of the time i would say

25:21

the way we write is different than the way that we speak

25:23

so if you are writing something to

25:25

be spoken you need to speak it several

25:28

times before you speak get on a stage

25:30

it will be different than what you put down on a page

25:32

and it is one of the best ways to at it

25:34

is to try to do that and then shook the notes

25:37

and try to do it by memory and you will find

25:39

what doesn't feel true to my own voice what doesn't

25:41

connect what am i getting bored hearing

25:43

myself say maybe i should reorder

25:45

their said the be ideas flow into each other because

25:47

when i'm remembering am not remember in and white knuckles

25:50

or to answer some of those questions in

25:52

a moth process you have a month director doing that with you

25:54

in sort of answering those questions but those are

25:56

the kind of things you can ask yourself on your

25:58

own so that when you that to this aged

26:00

you know specifically your first

26:02

line you know specifically your last fine

26:04

and you have supreme confidence in the flow

26:07

of what you're about to share with your audience because

26:09

you've done it several times before

26:11

and you've edited and thought israel okay

26:13

so that's that one son be is humans

26:16

are drawn to humans we care

26:18

about people and when someone shows up

26:20

as their most honest an authentic self

26:22

we lean in want to listen so you do not

26:24

have to be polished you have to prepare

26:27

the police on polish obviously this depends

26:29

slightly depending on the room that year and it's just

26:31

a matter of use showing up and sharing

26:33

your experience of giving that time

26:35

you can say i forgot this

26:37

one part i forgot i needed

26:39

to tell you this one thing let me tell

26:42

you now you can pause if you get overwhelmed

26:44

with emotion you can get the giggles even

26:46

for a second if the audience isn't a big laugh like

26:48

being present and and being in the moment

26:50

is going to be far more compelling than taking

26:52

a class about whether you should fig leaf with your hands

26:55

one of the things and it's coming to mind as you're saying

26:57

this is that even somebody who's polished

27:00

and has a ton of experience under

27:02

their belt in terms of public speaking

27:05

still has nerves that happen

27:07

or at least that's my experience is it

27:09

doesn't go away but you just also

27:11

have this huge almost

27:13

tinfoil ball the to add

27:15

a new tinfoil peace to that scout movement

27:18

to and train them

27:20

, korea every time you've done

27:22

another talk weather was successful or not

27:25

you've put another piece of tin foil on

27:27

that huge ball and it gets bigger and bigger

27:29

and bigger and it out ways though

27:31

the feelings can feelings huge inside you it's concrete

27:34

while it's metaphorical still to but in other

27:36

words you've got another opposing

27:38

view that says oh right

27:41

this again you've done this before and

27:43

even if you feel a certain way right now

27:45

you'll just do it again like you did last time you felt

27:47

this at did it anyway and so on

27:50

oh absolutely absolutely and you

27:52

know and you get more and more in tune to your

27:54

audience and then you get more capable

27:56

at saying engage with your audience the more

27:58

you do it i will say this this is the way

28:00

i deal with nerves i stand on

28:02

stage and a lot of different contexts from

28:04

ma shows to i get brian to

28:06

meetings and big presentations and sometimes

28:09

i'm going to laugh or descending mike are so you know they're all

28:11

these like moving pieces but i just

28:13

have to jump into and the way that i

28:15

get through it if i do get nervous isn't

28:18

that for better for worse i think it's

28:20

thirty minutes it's however many minutes it

28:22

it would you know in a in a hyper corporate context

28:25

and that clock counting me down i know exactly

28:27

how many mans i haven't every banks and at

28:29

the end if i am lucky i will still

28:31

be alive and that's all that's matters

28:33

whatever happens on the stage is not

28:35

more important than the fact that i will be walking off

28:37

the stage that everyone will move on to something

28:39

else and meeting that experience either still

28:42

giving it's a huge importance that it has

28:44

of course and doing all the preparation that we talked

28:46

about and and it just helps me

28:48

stay out of the chaos of nerves

28:50

and you know and bit of everything else

28:52

and think like think just have to do it well

28:55

for thirty minutes and minutes will survive

28:57

i know that that is actually one of the

29:00

five things that you've listed somewhere

29:02

i know i read this by you to be

29:04

a highly effective public speaker of traffic

29:07

one of the other for i should say is

29:09

hydrating which i think man that american

29:13

people don't know this but this minute reveal

29:15

this i'll pull the curtain back curtain will often

29:17

mute the mightier and take and sip while the guest

29:20

is speaking because it gives me the

29:22

nervous tests kind of moment

29:24

and then set it back down oh please that spilling

29:26

it then there you go like go like i'm

29:29

back in the moment it helps me concentrate their health

29:31

meets the maintain interactivity

29:33

during these conversations

29:34

the i'm a huge fan of hydration it's i drink

29:36

a lot of water but i'd never heard it

29:38

described did not lead to that does made perfect

29:41

sense it's like a way to sort of like punctuate

29:43

and pause and in weather doesn't

29:45

feel awkward spitzer me and simply

29:47

allied it's just your mouse dries

29:49

out would you know se system as

29:51

like see your mouth shut your eyes out with your super

29:53

nervous and you know tied to the hydration

29:55

thing is i think it's it's perfectly fair

29:58

and a i think it's really really double you

30:00

go on stage and say like oh i'm a little bit nervous

30:02

depending on again we're looking at different i'm speaking

30:04

of many contacts i'm trying to cover the many contexts

30:06

for storytelling so we have to calibrate

30:09

for each of them but many people understand that that's

30:11

one thing but if you go on stage and you

30:13

know your knees are knocking or your

30:15

hands or flailing that is you

30:17

know you you get to a point where your tip to the point where your

30:19

audience is like why am i listening to this person

30:21

this person is not confident what they're saying are not

30:23

ready to say but they're saying etc so

30:26

i would hydrate and then you said that water bottle down

30:28

you know like don't stand

30:30

there shaking there water but make sure yeah

30:33

that you've got it so that you're not in the middle

30:35

of your story suddenly going to be thrown

30:37

by your lessening ability to speak

30:39

the even going back to stand up comedians

30:42

is weird mentioning them earlier i

30:44

try to take notice of when it as they walk over

30:46

to the stool that on the stage with them and

30:48

they grabbed the bottle of water and they take a sip

30:51

and it's often i've noticed it's

30:53

kind of one of those okay they've grabbed it

30:55

and they're punctuating a joke

30:57

the our story and then they take

30:59

they take it them not standing there awkward

31:02

or feeling awkward the doing something that got

31:04

a purpose while the audience is

31:07

reacting in laughing and then you wait it's

31:09

i had some of like a sitcom where the

31:11

next person wouldn't start their joke yet till

31:13

the last tracked had finished

31:16

yeah i mean the level of degree in your observation

31:18

is impressive and up but i'm one hundred percent

31:20

with you yes exactly is a ways

31:22

and it's like a way of staying active on

31:24

stage when you don't actually have a job to do

31:27

one of the other things is a again you talked

31:29

a little bit about this earlier is is preparing

31:31

but not necessarily memorizing why is

31:34

that

31:34

yeah well so am when you memorize

31:37

a story and when you come on

31:39

stage a redundant wherever you are to share

31:42

at your brain is in the words

31:44

what is you know that cat ran over

31:46

that dogs when you remember

31:49

the scenes of the story the moments of

31:51

the story new connect your former likely to connect

31:53

to the motion abbott and you take your audience

31:56

through the journey of that story with you and

31:58

that means that if you do for

32:00

example for the a word you're more likely

32:02

to be like lucky i can go back to that or

32:04

if you say something slightly differently

32:06

than you had originally written it's

32:09

you're not thrown here to say it and the

32:11

way that in that moment feels like the best

32:13

way to communicate what it is that you want to say

32:16

gonna keep going back to the comedians

32:18

i've seen one gym the african i

32:20

saw him sitting on conan

32:22

o'brien's show yeah and telling a story

32:25

about a bear and so

32:27

people may be promote you know where i'm going with this and

32:29

then i saw him do it in person

32:32

when in saw him at saw stadium and

32:34

then stadium saw it on the special itself and

32:36

all three instances he told

32:39

it differently but there was a couple of

32:41

t punctuation places

32:43

where he would use specific words

32:46

with specific beeps and a specific

32:48

rhythm and that's all worked out by him but

32:50

what you're saying is that's not necessarily memorization

32:53

so much as you've worn the

32:55

groove in of the language

32:58

that most potent for that

33:00

instance for that story to convey

33:02

that emotion or that information

33:04

is that right

33:05

exactly edu you know that the

33:07

places that you have to head but by

33:09

telling it from a place of remembering

33:11

the experience vs remembering the words

33:13

you're able to to release i would

33:15

in it's most pleasant sense absolutely

33:18

and you've you've got it kind of your bones

33:21

so it can be really

33:22

the new speaking versus you

33:24

say and words and the other key piece

33:26

their beings that if you're memorizing

33:29

words you have more

33:31

of an anxiety to trip up on them even

33:33

the most anxiety ridden person if you ask

33:35

them a what happened there what was that story

33:37

again and if it's not as traumatizing

33:40

types of their instant

33:42

inclination is almost six start

33:44

to giggle a little bit or whatever and then just start

33:47

to oh yeah we'll see we'll would you

33:49

know and then they just jump into it's this

33:51

night and day between memorization and

33:54

just being invited to tell

33:56

the story

33:56

exactly exactly i mean i think it you

33:58

know it it gets back to the say like do

34:01

we tell people what they should be

34:03

or do we let them that you know how do you let people

34:05

be their best selves and when you drop your best

34:07

self of your just able to be and

34:09

not set by parameters of you know but you actually

34:11

said that percent you said read before house

34:14

and this and he said it after you know there's

34:16

just a different connection that we have to communicating

34:18

when

34:19

being able to speak from our

34:21

feelings vs arm you know some

34:23

sort of set of arbitrary rules

34:26

the i'd like to spend a few moments here

34:28

as we kind of wrap our by i'd love to pivot

34:30

into the workplace whether

34:33

that's virtual whether that's a job

34:35

interview or it's a presentation

34:37

or it's a leader getting up and giving like aquino's

34:40

but we have to keep in mind when it comes

34:42

to those kinds of professional

34:45

storytelling opportunities

34:47

well i would see first and foremost you

34:49

you know you have to make space for storytelling

34:51

great story telling us i was saying before it comes

34:53

from a place of vulnerability and i think

34:56

that you know juliet cultural

34:58

at work because his aren't set

35:00

up for that you know i think we

35:02

pride ourselves on efficiency we

35:04

pride ourselves on systems and can you get act the

35:06

why but if you want

35:08

to use sorry in your workplace and

35:10

you know use we sort of laid out all of the many

35:12

ways that you can there needs to be space

35:15

for it needs to be valued so you can start

35:17

with you can do a storytelling workshop and

35:19

have people share their stories together do you open

35:21

meetings with stories do you start

35:24

to think about the ways that

35:26

people personally connect to the values

35:28

of a company through their own personal stories

35:30

and we have to just give space is communicating

35:33

and sharing that i would say if

35:35

if you're looking to incorporate storytelling and your work

35:38

that's the first semi you have to consider it's not

35:40

probably going to happen well organically

35:43

even though it's the most natural thing in the world then

35:45

i think we have to start

35:48

to to dancing specifically about

35:50

how we want to use sort like

35:52

who's telling the stories and how do we want

35:54

to story and what are the stories that were telling

35:56

and that's something to be really thoughtful about

35:59

the his stories can be the huge catalyst

36:01

for cultural change so what

36:03

are the stories that we want to be during

36:06

and repeating and communicating and

36:08

icing even though exercise itself can

36:10

provide a lot of clarity to go back to

36:12

the very first thing he said

36:14

we've covered a lot of things already in terms of

36:16

you know getting over the initial anxiety

36:19

realizing that you have a story to tell obviously

36:22

mining says for memories

36:25

to use stories in a professional

36:27

setting may take may little bit more

36:30

filtering because again it's again professional

36:32

setting but again at the same time depending

36:34

upon the culture that you're in

36:37

it might be more appropriate

36:39

to tell a humorous story or a self deprecating

36:42

story to a certain extent but if

36:44

you try to have to have a feel for that culture first

36:46

and know if that's okay

36:48

that's what my m u n what i have one of the

36:50

things that i have found most surprising

36:53

about when i started to lead

36:55

workshops in corporate settings is

36:57

that there is no sort of way

36:59

of knowing the culture of a company or of an

37:01

organization and be there are be tortured them

37:03

place but i'm saying you can't just guess adviser they

37:05

are people in financial services necessarily

37:08

to and speaking in broad strokes different people with

37:10

a technical mind are gonna have a different type of mine but like

37:12

a financial services company could have an amazingly

37:15

inclusive cultures and then you go

37:17

into like a creative agency and

37:19

everyone's a button that up and there's no vulnerability

37:22

it's really fascinating to me which

37:24

speaks to the power of when you

37:26

create those more open work spaces

37:28

it you can still do very highly sophisticated

37:31

technical where i've ended stories help us

37:33

communicate stories help us connect for his help us

37:36

decipher big ideas it doesn't it's

37:38

it's not simply a culture of inclusivity

37:40

that ends with that boundary it's sort of permeates

37:43

throughout

37:44

well as we wrap up here obviously this

37:46

book is great not just from a

37:49

productivity standpoint but from a life standpoint

37:51

like we all tell stories we all need to be better

37:53

at telling stories that's just from an

37:55

entertainment purpose but also

37:58

from a life and a growing purpose

38:00

and a connections purpose so

38:02

i'd love to have you tell me and you

38:04

know by the way you're one of many

38:07

many authors i'm gladys yeah i don't know that

38:09

i could have had our of heads you know once where i had

38:11

two people one thread three i think but

38:13

have never had like what was a five or six

38:15

or seven different people holsters wasn't so

38:18

but i'm glad i'm got to talk to you tapes where can we

38:20

direct people to people to find out more about the books

38:22

dive in a little bit and as well as find

38:25

out more about them off and then i can link up to all

38:27

these things in the sound of

38:28

i'm one of five authors she is it

38:30

more authors and i've ever seen on the cover of a

38:32

bug and as delightful an interesting

38:35

exercise in productivity and rating in and of itself

38:37

and you can find us at

38:39

the last dot where'd you can

38:41

find everything about the book you can find

38:44

links to buy the book and listen to stories

38:46

and learn more about this

38:48

in addition that i am so lucky to be apart of

38:51

perfect and we're recording this in

38:53

mid twenty twenty two what's

38:55

the state of you know in person

38:57

collect his moss events

39:00

and workshops oh it's happening

39:02

were everywhere and set our website and

39:04

you can find us last perfect

39:07

, yeah wanted to tag that on there just in case

39:09

we can you know push people if they're if they're

39:11

able to locally get involved with that

39:13

so amazing tape awesome

39:16

talking with you here express enough

39:18

how good a book this a book people

39:20

to jump into this world and perfect

39:23

something that they may already be doing or

39:25

how to be to skill they

39:27

they didn't even know they needed and could be

39:29

good at so thank you so much

39:31

thank you so much for having me

39:34

well that's another podcast crossed off your listening

39:36

to do list i hope that you enjoyed this conversation

39:39

with kate tellers i did in fact

39:41

i know that i really need to hone

39:43

my craft a bit more when it comes

39:45

to storytelling and this book is great for

39:47

that you'll find the link for this book in

39:50

the show notes that beyond the to do list

39:52

dot com also

39:54

the if you want to find short cast

39:56

versions that i've partnered with blink kissed

39:59

on you in find those

40:01

short cast episodes of beyond

40:03

the to do list a seven

40:05

to ten minute version of past

40:07

episodes of this show you can find that

40:09

are beyond the to do list dot

40:11

com slash blink test that

40:14

b l i n k i

40:16

s t beyond the to

40:18

do list dot com slash blink

40:21

test i hope that you enjoyed this episode

40:23

if you did you found value

40:25

here i know somebody else that you

40:28

know will as well would

40:30

you do me the favor of sharing this episode

40:32

with them think of that one person click

40:34

the share button in your podcast player app of choice

40:36

or again over on those show notes and share

40:38

this over to them send it to them let them know

40:41

what you thought about this episode

40:43

and why you thought it would help them out

40:45

thank you for helping them thank

40:47

you for doing me that favor of sharing it

40:50

thank you for listening and i

40:52

will see you next episode