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wherever you get your podcasts. Hello

1:03

and welcome back to Beyond the

1:05

To-Do List, a podcast about productivity.

1:07

This week we're revisiting an important

1:10

conversation I had with Lizzie Penny

1:12

and Alex Hurst. They are the

1:14

authors of the book Work Style,

1:16

a revolution for well-being, productivity, and

1:19

society. And if you're like me, you may

1:21

have used the word work style without fully

1:23

grasping the broader meaning or the concept, but

1:25

they are the ones that actually coined this

1:27

term. And in this conversation, we're going to

1:29

talk all about it. We're going to talk

1:32

about conventional nine to five work, the

1:34

importance of autonomy in the digital age,

1:36

and many other insights gained from their

1:38

extensive research and real world applications through

1:40

Hoxby, a community model of freelancers, as

1:42

well as their personal experiences and practical

1:44

advice on how to start discovering your

1:47

own work style, the tools you need,

1:49

the resources that are available for this

1:51

journey. So if you're looking to transform

1:53

your own work life balance or innovate

1:55

in your organization, this episode is going

1:57

to be a great episode. to have

2:00

a ton for you to get started.

2:04

Well, this week it is my privilege

2:06

to welcome to the show Lizzie Penny

2:08

and Alex Hurst. Lizzie, Alex, welcome to

2:10

Beyond the To Do List. Thank

2:13

you for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. So

2:15

I am really excited. I received

2:18

a copy of your book Work Style,

2:20

a revolution for well being, productivity and

2:22

society. And I thought work style, that's

2:24

a great word. I felt like I'd

2:27

heard it before, maybe even used it before without

2:29

thinking of it, you know, it hit me and

2:31

I'm like, wait a second, I'm not sure if

2:33

I know what I mean, or what they mean

2:35

by this word. And come to find out you

2:37

coined this term. One, when did

2:39

that happen? And why did that happen? Yes,

2:42

we did like all good ideas. The UK,

2:44

it's a word that we came up with

2:46

in the pub one night, actually,

2:48

she was back end of 2014.

2:51

Around December, it was a cold winter's night,

2:53

we were sharing two for one, dark

2:56

and stormy cocktails. And really just

2:58

talking about frustrations with work. And

3:01

really that we wanted work to

3:03

fit around life rather than I

3:05

kind of fit around work. And

3:08

the term work styles obviously derived

3:10

from the word lifestyle. So

3:12

we were talking about how we are free

3:14

to make choices that shape

3:16

our lifestyle. But we don't have that

3:18

same freedom of choice. When it comes to work,

3:21

our lifestyle is expected to fit around with

3:23

basic construct of nine to

3:25

five Monday and Friday office based

3:27

working. And what is actually

3:30

we could be free to choose when

3:33

and where we work our own work style so

3:35

that we could sit work around

3:37

life. Wouldn't that be

3:39

revolutionary? And that was really the

3:41

starting point for what followed for the eight years

3:44

since. So I know that

3:46

you're in the pub something catalyzed this

3:48

thought of what if why can't we

3:51

can you explain a little bit or share

3:53

your story, I guess your backstory in terms

3:55

of what led you to that discussion of

3:58

coining that term. What were your experience? experiences

4:00

up until that point. I'll go

4:02

first, okay, just because I was kind of,

4:04

I guess, going to come on for this,

4:06

but I wasn't sure if this is the

4:08

kind of level of detail that your listeners

4:10

would want to hear about. But for me,

4:12

our frustrations were very different. But for me,

4:14

it was burnout. So prior to

4:16

that point, I'd already realized that I

4:19

needed to make some pretty major changes to my

4:21

life. I was working 16 hour

4:23

days, including commuting time. And

4:26

I was doing it every day for and

4:28

it kept it for years. And

4:30

the reason I was doing that was because

4:32

I felt like if I was giving all

4:35

I could physically, in terms of the amount

4:37

of time I said working, then

4:39

nobody could ask any more of me than that. Not

4:42

even myself. It was as much as I could

4:44

give. But I took my wife

4:46

Sarah telling me that I'd become a shadow

4:48

of myself, realize that

4:51

something needed to change. This

4:53

wasn't working for me, I'd become detached

4:55

from work emotionally. And

4:58

I didn't really have

5:00

any feeling for our successes or for

5:02

when things didn't go well, I was

5:04

numb really to what I was doing.

5:07

So we took a week away on holiday,

5:09

as I think most people probably would in

5:11

that situation. But it didn't

5:13

work. When we got back,

5:15

I realized that nothing had actually changed

5:17

for me. My feelings about

5:19

work was still the same, my relationship

5:21

with it was the same. And

5:25

it was only when I realized that time

5:27

away wasn't going to fix this problem that

5:29

it became clear it was a mental challenge

5:31

that would need me to think about a

5:33

solution or derive a new way of thinking

5:36

about work and my relationship with it.

5:38

And so from that point on, I decided

5:41

to stop validating my contribution at work and

5:43

my value in terms of how many hours

5:45

I spent working. And start

5:47

validating my contribution in terms of

5:49

what I was outputting and the

5:51

outcome of that work and

5:53

try and attribute my value to

5:56

those things, such that when

5:58

and where, how much work I did. work I

6:00

did, where I did it, didn't matter.

6:03

And really that was the change

6:05

in thinking I wanted to share with

6:07

Lizzie that night, but her story is different. I'll

6:10

be quiet now and let her take over. Equally

6:12

as important and just very different. For me,

6:14

it was about having my first child. So

6:17

it was when I had my son Finn that

6:19

I would say my eyes were really

6:22

opened to the enduring inequalities at

6:24

work. And I'm kind of embarrassed

6:26

to say that until then I was relatively

6:28

ignorant of those inequalities, but

6:30

suddenly my eyes were

6:33

opened to them and I didn't want to

6:35

be at work during his every waking hour.

6:37

I wanted to work during nap times or

6:39

in the evenings. And like Alex,

6:41

I wanted to be judged on my output rather

6:43

than being at a desk at a time that

6:45

traditional work told me that I should be. And

6:48

so that was the thing that led me

6:50

to the conversation in the pub with Alex,

6:52

but it's actually since we came up with

6:54

the word work cell that I've really understood

6:56

the profound significance of it. So two years

6:58

after that conversation in the pub with Alex,

7:00

I had some serious complications in my second

7:02

pregnancy with my twin daughters, Zoe and Megan.

7:04

The mentor had to have surgery at 23

7:07

weeks, followed by nine weeks of bed rest.

7:10

And being able to work during

7:12

those nine weeks and being able

7:14

to escape into my digital working

7:16

world was just transformative for me.

7:18

And it just helped to pass

7:20

those really long anxiety ridden days

7:23

at home on my own. And

7:25

against the odds, both our daughters

7:28

survived. And the day we brought

7:30

them home from the hospital and couldn't even begin

7:32

to fit their double pram through the front door

7:34

of our London flat, we decided

7:36

it was time to move across the UK

7:38

to the countryside. And I was

7:41

able with no disruption to my career.

7:43

And actually fast forward two

7:45

years from there and out of the

7:47

blue, I was diagnosed with breast cancer

7:49

in 2020. And as you

7:52

can imagine, that turned my world upside down.

7:54

But again, what started working with my outlook,

7:56

you know, it helped me to pass the

7:58

hours in the chemotherapy channel. where it

8:01

helped thoughts of cancer not to fill

8:03

my head and the cancer diagnosis not

8:05

to define me. And almost unbelievably since

8:07

then, my husband been diagnosed with cancer.

8:09

And so now I've fit my work

8:11

around supporting him through his treatment, managing

8:14

the side effects of my medication, looking after

8:16

three small children. As you can imagine, no

8:18

two weeks are the same for me. So

8:20

I've really come to value being able to

8:22

work when and where I choose more

8:25

than I ever could have thought possible. Well,

8:27

one, I wanna say thank you to

8:29

both of you for sharing your very

8:32

personal stories with this. Obviously, we

8:34

don't take that lightly. That's definitely something that

8:36

brought the issue to a head for both

8:38

of you. And honestly, in a unique way

8:41

than you were both able to connect on

8:44

that level and really flesh

8:47

out this concept. What I'd love to

8:49

do is get maybe a definition of

8:51

what the work style word

8:54

slash concept means to both

8:56

of you. Help us unpack

8:58

it. Again, I talked about it earlier. I thought,

9:00

oh yeah, that word. And then I'm like, wait, I

9:02

don't know if I've used that word before. I feel

9:05

like I may have, but I think

9:07

people may be coming into this conversation thinking they

9:09

know what it means and they may not exactly

9:11

be thinking about it the way that both of

9:13

you do. Yeah, so

9:15

we define work style as the

9:18

freedom to choose when and where

9:20

you work. And that

9:22

is not the same as flexible working,

9:24

which we can come on to, or

9:27

hybrid working or any other mandated

9:29

system that exists today.

9:31

This is about giving people the

9:34

actual freedom to choose when and

9:36

where they work. Because

9:39

what we know from our research is

9:42

that autonomy, which is

9:44

created by that freedom, is

9:47

what improves people's well-being.

9:49

And the research also shows that that

9:51

in turn increases productivity. So

9:54

it's very important that an individual has the

9:56

freedom to choose when and where they

9:59

work for themselves. else in their work

10:01

style to define. I

10:03

think also I just add to that that

10:05

language is really kind of central to the

10:07

book is something that really fascinates Alex and

10:10

I. And one of the things

10:12

that we felt was not only do we need a

10:14

completely new system of work that's fit for the digital

10:16

age that we live in, we also

10:18

need a new language around

10:20

work. And we wanted

10:22

to move away from this

10:25

kind of legacy of language, the

10:27

language of work being something negative,

10:29

you know, labor and Trevai and

10:31

all of these words come from

10:34

a very negative place, but

10:36

also things like shirking

10:38

from home, being a part-timer, being

10:40

a flex pest. There are lots of

10:42

negative conversations about working differently from the

10:44

nine to five, five day a week

10:46

working day, which is grounded in, you

10:48

know, 200 year old industrial age

10:50

thinking. So in coming up with

10:52

the word work style, we wanted something that was

10:55

quite neutral. You could say to someone,

10:57

what's your work style? And you're

10:59

not prejudging what that is. And

11:02

what was really fascinating was when we first came

11:04

up with the word, we tried just

11:06

using it in conversation, just as an

11:08

experiment and whenever we used it

11:10

in conversation, people would then use it back to

11:12

us. They very naturally adopted it.

11:14

And so I think for us, that was proof

11:17

that this is a word that we all need

11:19

and that should hopefully be adopted into

11:21

the wide of an acuna. I love

11:23

that. I think that's why I felt a familiarity

11:25

with it, even though I don't

11:27

know that I had been using

11:29

it regularly up until the point of seeing

11:32

it on the book cover or in the

11:34

emails, but it felt natural. It felt right.

11:36

And I think to your point, I think

11:38

it feels like it connotates this, Oh, you

11:41

have a work style and you have a

11:43

work style and everyone has their own work

11:45

style, which is inherently what's

11:47

kind of built into the meaning of the

11:49

word. I'm curious, you know, to go along

11:52

with that idea of sharing it

11:54

and using it in public. So for

11:56

others that may not have had

11:58

those type of experiences. but can definitely

12:01

relate to the concept you're talking about

12:03

of work style. How do you

12:05

start to introduce that? How does that look like

12:07

in terms of you have the terms you bring,

12:09

you mean, obviously you bring up the term productivity,

12:11

which is what this shows all about also well-being

12:14

and work style in a,

12:16

you know, work life balance that many

12:18

more people are familiar with that phrase,

12:20

but it's not just all about that.

12:22

In other words, what was it about

12:24

the current workspace or workplace or world

12:26

of work, I mean,

12:29

at the time of quitting the term

12:31

that dictated, no, we need to do

12:33

this, like this is the moment.

12:35

What's that context that you saw in

12:37

the world for everybody, not just yourselves?

12:40

I mean, I think for us, three

12:42

big things were happening in 2014

12:44

when we had that conversation in

12:46

the pub and we often say,

12:48

why didn't we come up with

12:50

this earlier? But in truth, I

12:52

think the conditions just weren't there

12:54

for us to have done that.

12:56

And so the three things that

12:58

were changing were technology, demographic changes

13:00

and independence. So the first was

13:02

technology and, you know, certainly

13:05

we don't need to talk to your listeners

13:07

about changes in the port of MC of

13:09

hardware or the prevalence of wifi. But

13:11

the thing that really changed in 2014 was that the first

13:14

time we could tether to our

13:17

mobile phones as a personal hotspot. And

13:20

that meant that work went from being a

13:22

place that we went to being a thing

13:24

that we did whenever and wherever we could

13:26

find space for our laptops, certainly for those

13:28

in the knowledge economy. And we can come

13:31

back to that. And online collaboration

13:33

and communication tools also reached a

13:35

tipping point that meant that we

13:37

could work really productively, but also

13:40

choose to work in a way

13:42

that best suited us as individuals.

13:44

So that was a massive change that meant that one

13:47

size no longer had to fit all. The

13:49

second big thing was this kind

13:51

of rising awareness of demographic changes

13:53

and specifically an aging population. So

13:56

21% of the worldwide population will be over 60

13:59

by the year 20. 2050

14:01

and that probably includes a large proportion

14:03

of your listeners. And

14:06

as our life expectancy increases

14:08

and where many nation states

14:10

can't fund pensions and social

14:12

care and families and communities

14:14

just can't provide the support that's needed,

14:17

older people will simply have to

14:19

keep working for longer in order

14:21

to remain financially independent. And so

14:23

that creates a requirement for us

14:25

to reshape our working system to

14:27

facilitate those people staying in work

14:29

for longer. And without it,

14:31

businesses simply won't have enough people to do

14:34

the jobs that need doing. So there was

14:36

this big demographic catalyst. And

14:38

then the third thing was attitudes to

14:40

work and specifically kind of

14:43

more independence to choose how

14:45

each earn a living. So lots of people

14:47

started to trade the idea of a job

14:49

for life, for self-employment or for

14:52

a portfolio career. And we know

14:54

that the freelance workforce is a

14:56

huge makeup of the workforce in

14:58

the US. It's also the fastest

15:00

growing labor force in Europe. And

15:02

so that independence brought a new

15:04

level of self-management and also an

15:07

opportunity to work in a completely

15:09

different way. So for us, it

15:11

was those three things coming together

15:14

that really felt like the time was

15:16

right for a new system of work

15:18

that was fit for the digital age

15:20

we live in, rather than the legacy

15:22

of 200-year-old thinking that was built for

15:24

an industrial age. Well, and

15:26

obviously that was 2014 and

15:28

zoom ahead to almost 10 years later,

15:30

including a period of the pandemic of

15:32

two to three plus years where you've

15:35

got lockdown and then gradual de-escalation

15:38

of that and

15:40

the technology that rose and not

15:42

just rose, but was quickly adopted

15:45

more quickly than ever before. I

15:47

hate saying those words now more than ever, but I,

15:49

you know, that'll be my one time right now for

15:51

this episode and for all episodes, I promise we've all

15:53

been sick of hearing that, but I'm

15:55

curious, obviously now you coined the term

15:57

2014, the books coming out. but

20:00

many of you know this already, but that means

20:02

basically working at a time when it suits us

20:04

as individuals rather than working synchronously at the same

20:07

time as each other. As you

20:09

can imagine, that is a hugely inclusive

20:12

way to work. You know, if I'm having chemo in the

20:14

day but I want to work in the evening, then

20:17

suddenly I can when we work

20:19

asynchronously as an organisation. But

20:22

it's also more productive because

20:24

it means that you can tailor your working

20:26

to the time at which you know you

20:29

are more productive. And

20:31

it can be really fun and highly

20:33

collaborative if people set the

20:35

right parameters, have the right combination

20:38

of technology and establish really clear

20:40

ways of working from the start.

20:42

And then the third thing that

20:44

we learned quickly was about investing

20:46

in a trust-based culture. I

20:48

mean, work style only works if

20:50

it's underpinned by trust. And

20:53

you know, Alex and I are

20:55

trying to lead by example with that. You

20:57

know, we're as dedicated to our work as

21:00

anyone is. We don't want to be judged whether we're working

21:02

from bed or working from the hairdresser

21:04

or wherever we're working from. And

21:07

I think we feel that trust is something

21:09

that needs to be invested in. It

21:11

needs to be role modelled by leaders, it needs to

21:14

be recognised and it needs to be rewarded. It doesn't

21:16

just come by itself. So

21:18

those are the three things that we

21:20

quickly learned and that we find ourselves

21:23

continuing to say to people today, be

21:25

digital first, worth asynchronously and invest in

21:27

a trust-based culture. I

21:29

think those principles would

21:31

have served a lot of companies well during

21:34

the pandemic and during the big experiment

21:36

because what we found and what we

21:38

heard from lots of companies we were

21:40

talking to was they were still doing

21:42

meetings. They were just doing them on

21:44

Zoom, for example, so they were still

21:47

working synchronously. They were struggling

21:49

to understand what one another was doing

21:51

because they were thinking in terms of

21:53

presence rather than trust. But they were

21:55

learning about digital first technologies,

21:59

just weren't familiar with with

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combination of those things, but

40:02

it therefore needs to be a

40:05

system that is universally applied, rather than it

40:07

being something where someone says, oh, can I

40:10

work in a work-style way? For

40:12

us, this isn't about the single person. And

40:15

the organizations where we've seen it work

40:17

really well are where there's a clear

40:19

champion of work-style working, particularly at the

40:22

senior level, and they then

40:24

make it something that's available for everyone. And

40:26

where work-style documents are public on a

40:28

shared intranet or something that's visible for

40:31

everyone, and where they use the right

40:33

language and have the right culture to

40:35

underpin it. So, yes, we

40:37

have seen that in organizations and it's

40:40

transformative in terms of both productivity, but also

40:42

in terms of the human level that people

40:44

get to know each other on. Because

40:46

suddenly you know what's going on in someone's

40:48

life, where before you're expected to shut that

40:50

off and keep that out of the work

40:52

conversation. I think that's one of the

40:55

most important parts of this that

40:57

Lizzie's just touched on at the end there, which is by

41:00

having a work-style and by communicating it

41:03

to one another, we

41:05

connect with each

41:08

other in a way that we've never

41:10

done before. We start to understand the

41:12

lives that one another is living when

41:14

we're not messaging each other or talking

41:16

to each other about work and things.

41:19

And that connectedness has

41:21

been probably the thing that the

41:24

more advanced organizations would say

41:26

has been transformative. And by that,

41:28

I mean organizations who are

41:30

already working, digital-versed, asynchronous, trust-based, but

41:33

looking for something more in terms

41:35

of cultural gain. So even

41:37

for those organizations, being able

41:40

to unite people to a deeper

41:42

level, which you wouldn't think is possible

41:44

actually, because a lot of the criticism we get is

41:46

how can you possibly connect with one another if you're

41:48

not sitting in the same room? It's surprising, but it

41:50

is the case for a lot

41:52

of those organizations. For me

41:54

as a middle-aged white

41:56

man, who probably is the

41:58

last candidate for I

46:00

just know that as more people get into this book, and

46:03

ideally the next book as well, but

46:05

as you're continuing to work and make

46:07

this a more just standard word in

46:10

people's vernacular, it's gonna make a huge

46:12

impact. I'd love to drive more people

46:14

to the book, obviously. Can

46:16

you share where people can connect with you

46:19

as well as grab or get a sample of

46:21

copy of, you know, what's in the book? Also

46:24

the URL for the Slack that you were

46:26

talking about earlier. Yep, so

46:28

the book's available from amazon.com and

46:30

all good book shops. There's

46:33

a lot more detail about everything at

46:35

workstylerevolution.com. And if you

46:37

go to the join page there, you can see a

46:39

link to join the Slack community. And

46:41

please do connect with Alex and I on LinkedIn

46:43

or follow us on Instagram. We'd love to hear

46:45

your thoughts on the book. And we

46:48

recognize that not everyone will love this book.

46:50

The point is it's a starting point for

46:52

a conversation about a very different future of

46:54

work from the one that we live in

46:57

now. Could I just add as

46:59

well, if you're not a big reader, if

47:01

you prefer to listen, if you're still sort of

47:03

stuck in the days where you commute and you

47:05

prefer to listen while you're on your commute, then

47:08

it's also available as an audio book, which

47:10

is quite an exciting version of the

47:13

book because it involves participation of lots

47:15

of people telling their own workstyle stories

47:17

as well as participation of geeks

47:20

who we recruited to contribute to the book,

47:22

the science behind all of this great stuff

47:24

as well. So if you prefer an audio

47:27

book, it's on Audible 2. Perfect,

47:29

yeah. And hey, podcast listeners, audio

47:31

books are basically just a really

47:33

long podcast. You can pause it

47:36

at any point. So I would

47:38

suggest that highly. In fact, I'm kind of curious

47:40

about getting that myself just to kind of have

47:43

it as a review. You're not

47:45

sick of our voices yet, then. No, no,

47:47

no, not at all. In fact, I love listening

47:49

to the London slash British,

47:51

et cetera, accent. So it's always

47:53

nice. It's always nice. Yes, double

47:56

awesome this time around, obviously. So

48:00

Lizzie, Alex, it's been great talking with

48:02

you. Can't wait to have you back when the

48:05

next book comes out. So open

48:07

invitation. I know no pressure, no pressure to

48:09

start on that right away, but you already

48:11

are going that direction. So thank

48:13

you so much for being here. Pleasure. Thank you for

48:16

having us. Thank you so much for having us. Well,

48:21

that's another podcast crossed off your listening to

48:23

do list. I hope that you enjoyed this

48:25

conversation with Lizzie and Alex and WorkStyle. And

48:27

I hope that you found something interesting and

48:29

hopefully helpful from this conversation. I know that

48:31

the book is definitely something that is worth

48:33

grabbing. They've done a lot of work and

48:35

a lot of research. And I know that

48:38

not only will you find it helpful, I

48:40

bet there's somebody else you know that needs

48:42

to hear it. If you would do me

48:44

that favor, share this episode with somebody. Forward

48:46

them wherever you're listening to this, your podcast

48:48

player app of choice, hit the share button,

48:50

share this over to them, or head on over

48:52

to the show notes at beyond the to do

48:55

list.com. You can type in work style and find

48:57

it there. You can also send me a message

48:59

from there. I'd love to hear from you. Thank

49:01

you so much for sharing. Thanks again for listening

49:03

and I'll see you next episode. Bye.

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