0:15

Hello, and welcome back

0:16

to another episode note of beyond the

0:19

to do list, I am your host, Eric Fisher,

0:21

and this is the show where I talk to the people

0:23

behind the productivity. This week, I'm excited

0:25

to share with you a conference station I had with Tara

0:27

McMullen. She's a writer, a podcaster,

0:30

she studies small business owners, how

0:32

they live, how they work, what influences

0:35

them. She has a great podcast called What

0:37

Works, and that's also the title of her brand

0:39

new book called What Works a

0:41

comprehensive framework to change the way

0:43

we approach goal setting. And I know

0:46

you hear those words, goal setting and you think, yeah,

0:48

we've heard about that before. We're supposed to set

0:50

goals. we're supposed to try to meet those goals. If

0:52

we don't meet those goals, we learn

0:54

from the process of not meeting them and then we

0:56

try again. Or we set new goals, we set better

0:58

goals, we learn, we process. We move on.

1:00

Lather rinse repeat, etcetera. However,

1:03

Terra has a different approach

1:05

to goal setting, and I'm not even going to tell

1:07

you what it is till we get into the

1:09

conversation because it's different and it's

1:11

helpful and it's less rigid and

1:14

more flexible and Honestly,

1:16

more helpful for people

1:18

who have been burned by

1:21

setting goals in the past and tried to

1:23

meet them and Had them not work out? Had

1:25

it not be met? Or maybe you're

1:27

a workaholic of some sort, but you just

1:29

feel like that hustled, culture, mentality,

1:31

even if it's just in your own head. isn't

1:33

working for you or at times hasn't worked

1:35

for you, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I'm telling

1:38

you consider Tara's approach

1:40

with her framework and see if you

1:42

can't make some changes to the way you approach

1:44

goal setting. I had an awesome time

1:46

talking with Tara. I'm telling you right now

1:48

this is a top ten

1:51

productivity book in my So

1:53

I'm gonna get out of the way and just say, enjoy

1:55

this conversation with Tara

1:57

McMullen.

1:59

Well, this week, it is my privilege

2:02

to welcome to the show. Tara McMullen,

2:04

Tara, welcome to Beyond the to do

2:06

list. Well, thanks so much for having me, Eric.

2:09

I'm excited to talk with

2:11

another you know what? I would call you a productivity

2:13

podcaster even though I don't know that you would

2:15

maybe say that or claim that title,

2:17

but I would think so because I have checked out

2:19

your show. And obviously, you've got a new book

2:21

coming out, which is why I wanted to have you on, and

2:23

it's called what works a comprehensive

2:26

framework to change the way we approach

2:29

goal setting. We have not talked about

2:31

setting goals on this show for

2:33

a very long time, but I

2:35

really know one from going through the book

2:38

and from your background that this is gonna

2:40

be somewhat of a life chain. Darren,

2:42

call it that, I think I am. gonna be a life changing

2:44

kind of conversation or at least the start of

2:46

a a path for some people, especially

2:49

when it comes to goal setting. because not only

2:51

are you a podcaster, you're a writer,

2:53

and you study small business

2:55

owners and what they do, how they

2:57

work, how they live, all of that

2:59

in that world. yet you're also

3:02

kind of or have been and maybe

3:04

a recovering perfectionist. That's

3:06

not quite right. I think maybe more

3:08

of a a driven person In

3:10

other words, you've had kind of a toxic relationship

3:13

in the past with goals. Can you talk

3:15

a little bit about your background and

3:17

your relationship with goals that led you to

3:19

this book? Yes.

3:20

Absolutely. So there

3:22

are different times in my life and I would certainly

3:24

identify

3:24

as a perfectionist and

3:26

and sometimes absolutely still

3:29

am. But the

3:30

way I like to describe my

3:32

relationship with goals is that

3:34

I have never met a merit badge

3:36

or a trophy or an

3:39

accolade that I didn't

3:41

want

3:41

to go out and get. So I

3:43

am the classic anxious

3:45

overachiever who

3:47

is always looking for

3:49

that next hit of

3:52

you're good enough, you're smart

3:54

enough, and dog out and people like

3:56

you. Right? And

3:58

any kind of

3:59

sort of material or tangible

4:02

concrete recognition

4:05

of my success or

4:07

my progress is just

4:10

like Katnet. to me. I just want it,

4:12

want it, want it, want it. And

4:14

I think there's a lot of different reasons

4:16

for that. I think that in

4:18

some ways, it's who my parents brought

4:20

me up to me. I think in a lot of ways, it

4:22

comes very naturally to me.

4:24

And then as I talk about a

4:26

lot in the book, I think there's a lot of cultural

4:29

components to it that

4:31

have, you know, pushed me in that

4:33

direction of always being a

4:35

straight a student, always going

4:37

after the next milestone on

4:40

the horizon. But

4:42

yeah, so the toxic part

4:43

of it for me

4:44

is that as someone who has a

4:47

relationship with goals and merit

4:49

badges like that, I

4:51

often would go after

4:53

that merit badge as

4:56

an end goal as the,

4:58

like, when I achieve this, then

5:01

I'll feel better about myself. When I achieve

5:03

this, then I will have made it. life

5:05

will be easier or whatever the thing

5:07

might be. And in that

5:09

process, often short

5:12

change my own critical thinking

5:14

about what

5:16

achieving that merit badge would either

5:18

require for me or might

5:20

take from me.

5:20

And so I've found myself at different

5:23

points in my life and

5:25

especially since becoming an

5:27

independent worker, a business owner. just

5:30

really off the path

5:32

that I wanted to be on. I found

5:34

myself out of alignment with my values.

5:36

I found myself in relationships

5:39

that weren't working or I found myself damaging

5:42

relationships that I really valued because

5:44

of my hyper focus on

5:47

those goals, on the merit badges, on the trophies.

5:49

You know, I I talk about in the book as well.

5:51

I've even been physically injured

5:54

by these kind of goals. Right? Because

5:57

right around the same time that I started

5:59

rethinking goals and productivity in

6:01

my own life and work, I also developed

6:03

a fitness habit which has

6:05

been wonderful because fitness is

6:08

something that is so quantitative.

6:10

Right? I'm a runner, so I can see literally

6:12

at the end of every run and and really

6:14

the whole time I'm running. I can see my

6:16

pace. I can see my heart rate. I can see how many

6:18

miles I've gone that I've developed

6:21

overuse injuries because because

6:23

I kept pushing toward a

6:25

particular pace or toward a particular

6:28

mileage instead of listening

6:30

to my body or thinking more

6:32

critically about my training program

6:34

and, you know, taking some time

6:36

off. So, yeah, my relationship

6:39

with goals has always been complicated,

6:42

but I think the sort of

6:44

way that

6:44

I have worked up

6:47

until the point where I really started

6:48

questioning that. has been a

6:51

pretty toxic one. I

6:53

loved goals. I was driven by

6:55

goals. I wanted to set really big

6:57

goals. And also, Those

6:59

goals had a way of

7:02

exhausting me, burning me out,

7:04

getting me out of alignment, hurting

7:07

relationships. And so it was just

7:09

always this really kind of negative

7:11

give and take between

7:13

wanting to go after the goals and

7:15

also dealing with the repercussions

7:17

of going after the goals. A

7:19

couple different things here that spring to

7:21

mind. One is a lot of people

7:23

can probably identify with

7:26

what you're describing your

7:28

relationship with goals and your drivenness

7:30

and achieving approach

7:32

to life, that either

7:34

that's them or they know somebody

7:36

who is that person and has

7:38

been maybe hurt by them or

7:41

third slot here they aren't

7:43

that, but they feel they have to

7:45

be that way because that's how the world

7:47

works. Yeah.

7:48

I would say there's even a fourth path in there

7:50

too, which is people who see

7:53

those overachievers like me

7:55

and and like some of the people I talk about

7:57

in my book, and they think, oh

7:59

my god, I never or

8:00

want to be

8:00

that. Right. Like, they're willing to

8:03

buck cultural systems and

8:05

economic systems and the job market and

8:07

all of this to just not be

8:10

so driven by merit

8:12

badges and trophies and

8:14

hey, more power to them. But

8:16

yeah, I think that we all have sort

8:18

of a slightly different perspective

8:21

on the way goals

8:23

show up in our lives that

8:25

is very much formed by

8:27

our experiences in school,

8:29

our experiences really in life

8:31

with our families, our

8:33

experiences is in a wider job market

8:36

and and, you know, in the world of business, if

8:38

that's where you find yourself. And

8:40

those influences start to

8:43

shape how we think

8:45

about achievements, how we

8:47

think about what our shoulds and

8:49

supposed tos, are and

8:51

then also shaped sort of our

8:53

kind of emotional stance

8:56

for those goals. Our goals

8:58

something that make you feel

9:00

validated, make you feel recognized,

9:02

make you feel like you're worthy

9:04

enough that you're valuable and useful

9:06

enough, Or do

9:08

goals reinforce the ideas

9:10

that you're not good enough,

9:12

that you're not worthy, that you're

9:14

not valuable enough to identity.

9:16

And

9:16

so I think there's this whole system

9:18

of influences that

9:21

shape how we

9:23

were respond to kind

9:25

of the cultural imperatives for

9:28

growth and achievement. And

9:30

it it does read interesting patterns

9:32

among different types of people.

9:34

And in the

9:34

book, you talk about all of that. We talk

9:37

about how we've gotten to this point,

9:39

and you know, beside the

9:41

fact that we are in this

9:43

age where for the most part,

9:45

the most of us don't feel

9:47

like we've got a lack.

9:49

We've got more. We've got prosperity. We've

9:51

got enough. And yet, we feel

9:53

like we've got to constantly not

9:56

only aim for more, but achieve

9:58

more. and of this new

10:00

standard. Again, actually, in the book, I

10:02

remember, in the beginning, you kind of talk

10:04

about this kind of backlash

10:06

that you got when you were young and

10:08

skipped a grade in school and the

10:10

way people treated you.

10:12

Yeah. It was

10:14

I mean, it was just that

10:16

was a while of the personal experience,

10:18

like, way too young to be able

10:20

to process what was happening

10:21

at the time, but essentially,

10:24

I

10:24

yes, I skipped a grade. And skipping

10:27

a grade, it put me into junior

10:29

high school a year early.

10:30

So technically, I was in a different

10:32

school,

10:32

but all of the kids I was going to

10:35

school

10:35

with knew that I was not in the grade

10:37

that I was supposed to be in.

10:39

And yet, the administrators

10:42

had said, hey, don't tell people

10:44

that you skip a grade. Like, let's just

10:46

keep it on the DAL. They didn't say it that

10:48

way, but that's what that's what they meant.

10:50

But it was so silly because

10:52

everybody saw me as

10:54

the girl that skipped a grade. And

10:56

that's how people referred to me

10:58

in the seventh grade. And

11:01

at the same time, it

11:03

was, you know, I'd get these questions.

11:05

Are you smart or something?

11:07

you know, how smart are you? And it

11:09

was a way I see

11:12

now of kind of separating

11:14

me, alienating me from the

11:16

rest

11:16

of the group. Right? because

11:18

that's not a thing you're supposed

11:20

to do. So sometimes,

11:22

as you said, that achievement process

11:25

creates a backlash that

11:27

leads to feeling like,

11:29

well, I might be really

11:31

smart, but I'm not good enough

11:33

in all of

11:34

these other ways or I don't belong

11:37

anymore. Now it's obvious that

11:39

I'm not like other people

11:41

and so that puts you into

11:42

a sort of a a

11:44

deficit of validation and

11:46

worthiness too, which then just leads

11:48

to more. achievement behavior

11:50

to try and get it back. And it's

11:52

a nasty cycle. But, yeah, that was a wild

11:54

time. And

11:56

it's still something that I look back on. I'm like, I

11:58

don't know that I'm still fully processed.

12:01

What all went down then?

12:03

Yeah. Well,

12:03

I mean, again, we write books to kind

12:05

of have our therapy sessions in public.

12:07

Yes, absolutely. Let's set the context here.

12:09

I think the one other thing I wanna ask is

12:12

obviously you've struggled with this. You've

12:14

you've wrestled with this. a better way to put it is

12:16

maybe you'd bristled at the

12:18

external expectation. Meanwhile, all

12:20

along, it kind of resonated with your

12:22

internal kind of achievement drive

12:24

that you naturally have, but you thought

12:27

there's just something that doesn't feel

12:29

right that you're pursuing

12:31

things, you're you're setting goals, trying to

12:33

achieve them but this can't be

12:35

the way this works. What was the

12:37

moment where you thought? No. You know what? I'm

12:39

gonna start to externally

12:42

voice this concern or

12:44

wrestle with this in public? That

12:46

is such a good question.

12:48

I would say that

12:50

it was about five years ago at

12:52

this point. And I

12:54

had I've been

12:56

speaking of therapists, I have

12:58

uncovered the pattern

13:01

in my life that about every five

13:03

years, I go through a cycle of

13:05

burnout and depression. And I

13:07

was at the the

13:08

sort of in the middle at the peak

13:10

of one of those cycles where I

13:12

was emotionally exhausted. I

13:14

was physically exhausted. I

13:16

was feeling really down on myself

13:19

even though I'd achieved

13:21

things that I just had not

13:23

even dreamed of when I

13:25

was in my early twenties

13:27

or in my teenage

13:29

years. And

13:30

so I started to think

13:32

about, is this really working for

13:34

me? How have I organized and

13:36

kind of structured my life that

13:38

maybe is kind of creating the

13:41

situation in which I keep burning out

13:43

or when I keep thinking

13:45

I don't know if this is

13:47

the way I want to live my

13:50

life and then, you know, go

13:52

quickly find a replacement for

13:54

it that leads to another cycle of burnout.

13:56

So I think with the end of twenty sixteen, early

13:58

twenty seventeen, I started

13:59

really kind of chewing on

14:02

whether the smart goals and

14:04

the productivity tips

14:06

and the, you know, just all

14:08

of the the stuff

14:09

that we learn to do

14:11

as workers and creators,

14:13

whether that was

14:15

actually

14:15

good for me and whether it

14:18

worked with my individual

14:20

temperament. And I started talking about it,

14:22

not quite in public, but I started talking

14:24

about it a bit with some

14:26

mastermind groups that I was

14:28

running at the

14:29

time. And I found

14:32

people really wanted to hear

14:33

more. They wanted to hear more

14:36

about, well, you know, if you're not

14:38

setting smart goals, if you're not doing this, if you're

14:40

not doing that, what are

14:41

you doing? How is this

14:43

working for you? And and how are you

14:45

approaching things? Then by the

14:47

end of that year, maybe

14:49

beginning of twenty eighteen, I

14:51

felt that I had

14:53

gotten to a place where, okay, I

14:55

have more of a system I've

14:57

definitely processed some

14:58

of the cultural baggage

15:01

around these things. I've started to

15:03

identify the negative patterns

15:05

that I'm trying to cope with with

15:08

goal setting and and productivity

15:10

stuff. And then by the end of

15:12

that year, so it took me quite a while. I

15:14

kinda put it out in public

15:16

for the first time, and I

15:18

found that people

15:20

were desperate for

15:23

an alternative to

15:26

either kind of hustle

15:28

culture, that sort of entrepreneurial

15:30

ambition

15:30

girl boss culture or

15:33

sort

15:34

of a productivity nihilism

15:37

as Charlie Gelkey just put it to

15:39

me today. that sort

15:41

of backlash against,

15:43

like, no, I'm not gonna set goals.

15:45

I'm not gonna be productive. I'm just

15:47

gonna do, you know, go with the flow

15:49

and and be my own person. Like,

15:51

there's got to be a middle

15:53

way. There's got to be a a place where

15:55

we can say, yes. I wanna

15:57

grow, I wanna be ambitious, I have

15:59

big

15:59

ideas, and I

16:02

want to approach them humanely,

16:04

and I want to approach them with my

16:06

whole identity and I want

16:08

to examine the way it is in which I

16:10

have real limitations and

16:12

real difficulty accessing

16:14

resources in different ways.

16:16

And that it seemed like

16:18

exactly what people were looking for. Just

16:20

even

16:20

the possibility that that

16:23

was

16:23

a way that you could structure your

16:25

life. And I think that,

16:27

you know, in that process of

16:30

kind of taking this work, this

16:32

process public,

16:33

I learned a

16:36

lot

16:36

about how other people

16:38

related to goals. And we've talked about some of

16:40

this already, so I won't spend too much time in

16:42

there. But just thinking through,

16:44

like, how people

16:46

receive the messages that

16:49

are so prevalent in hustle

16:51

culture and, you know, advice

16:53

culture. How people kind

16:55

of set aside their own

16:57

values or their own ways

16:59

of working, their own ways of doing and

17:01

being in order to try

17:03

the latest piece of software,

17:05

try the latest system

17:08

for getting more done

17:09

in a day. And all of

17:11

that feedback sort of

17:13

continued to drive me

17:16

thinking about, well, how far can

17:18

we take this? It's not just

17:21

a system for goal setting. It's not just a productivity

17:23

system. It's not just a planning

17:25

system. What is the overall kind

17:27

of philosophy behind

17:30

this process. And so

17:32

that

17:32

feedback and that response was was

17:35

really huge for me because it served as

17:37

sort of that initial bed

17:39

of research that I really needed to

17:41

take the process even further. So

17:43

I'm not sure that I answered your question,

17:45

but that's where I ended up. Well,

17:47

and and it may be hard to

17:49

pinpoint. No. That's the moment I knew

17:51

I must write this book. No. It's it

17:53

may not be that simple. It's

17:55

a progression. And in fact, that kind

17:57

of shows that that's what it's

17:59

supposed to be. In

17:59

a way, that's what you're talking about here.

18:02

It's it's it's not being part of hustle culture

18:04

and it's not being part of productivity

18:07

nihilism. In a way, I didn't have the clarity to

18:09

say this back then when I started the

18:11

show. but that's why I wanted to start

18:13

the show. It's why the title is

18:15

beyond the to do list. It's to be

18:17

able to have that be a very

18:19

broad topical availability to

18:22

me and and being able to create lots of episodes

18:24

about things. But it's also that other

18:26

side of that phraseology where

18:29

it's No. We're moving beyond the to

18:31

do list, and we're going to actually talk

18:33

about what it really means to do the right

18:35

things. And like you say in the book

18:37

separating the who

18:39

you are from the what you

18:41

do? Yeah.

18:42

So that that was

18:44

a very pivotal moment for

18:46

me. So

18:47

I was at the gym. I was

18:49

listening to podcasts as a do.

18:51

I can remember the exact

18:53

spot I was in the gym.

18:55

I can remember you know, what I

18:57

was doing, how the Matt felt under

18:59

my fingers, and I was

19:01

listening to Jocelyn Kay Glies, Hurry

19:04

slowly pod asked. And the episode was all about

19:06

this question that a healer asked her,

19:08

and it was simply, who are you without

19:10

the doing? And kind

19:13

of felt my blood run

19:15

cold in that moment. It's

19:17

like I have no idea who I am without

19:19

the doing. Is there a person

19:21

that's not the doing? and

19:23

I stopped listening right then and

19:25

didn't pick the

19:25

podcast up again for years

19:28

because

19:28

I could not answer that

19:31

question. And at first, it was sort of

19:33

an individual introspective

19:36

kind of look at, like, alright, who am I? Who am

19:38

I? Like, how even talk about myself

19:40

if I'm not talking about writing

19:42

or podcasting or

19:44

working out or running? I

19:46

just felt so stuck. Like, I didn't

19:48

even know how to talk about what I

19:50

was thinking about. But when I finally

19:53

started talking with other

19:55

people about it, I realized

19:57

that you know, while other

19:59

people

19:59

might have a clear sense of

20:02

who they are without the doing, it's

20:04

also this sort of very

20:06

open ended

20:07

question. And and today, I kind of

20:10

think of the question almost like a

20:12

colon. Right? Like, so a question that

20:14

leads to contemplation, but there

20:16

is no ant sir. And

20:18

so for me, that question has

20:20

been this constant companion

20:23

of thinking about Well, who am I without the doing? Who am

20:25

I when I'm not a writer? Who am I when I'm not

20:27

a podcaster? Who am I when I'm not

20:30

a runner? what does it

20:32

mean even to be

20:34

a person, a being without

20:37

those things? And so

20:39

one of the concepts in in just

20:41

doing research around the subject that

20:43

I came across that I really,

20:45

really love is this idea

20:47

of the network self. And this is

20:49

an idea from a philosopher

20:51

named Kathleen Wallace.

20:53

And she talks about, you know,

20:56

how sort of original conceptions of the

20:58

self were either a sort of

21:00

psychological constant

21:02

where you know, your mind

21:04

is your mind from birth to

21:06

death and that's that is yourself.

21:09

There's also the the more biological

21:11

you are an organism organism

21:14

is yourself. But

21:16

Kathleen Wallace's idea is

21:18

that we actually are

21:20

a mix of identities that

21:22

we have layers and layers and layers of

21:24

identity. And some of those identities

21:26

absolutely have to do with the

21:28

things that we

21:30

do. Right? The work that we do,

21:32

the hobbies that we have,

21:34

just the things that we enjoy

21:36

doing. and other of those identities

21:38

have to do with our relationships.

21:41

So, you know, I'm a wife, I'm a

21:43

mother, I'm a daughter, those

21:46

relationships kind of create these

21:48

identities for me. And

21:50

then there's also just the

21:52

things that are unique

21:54

to me or different to me than,

21:56

you know, most other people.

21:58

So, you know, I have an

21:59

identity of being an autistic person. I have

22:02

an identity of being left. handed.

22:04

That's really important to me. You

22:06

know, I have an identity of all

22:08

these things that

22:09

are specific to me and my

22:12

lived experience internally and

22:14

that my conception of self

22:16

isn't one thing, but

22:18

in fact, is all of these

22:21

things networked together.

22:23

And there are different ways that they play

22:25

nicely or sometimes not play

22:27

nicely together. that's

22:29

who makes up me. And

22:31

when I started to kind of

22:33

incorporate that idea into

22:34

the way I thought about the question, who were

22:36

you without

22:37

the doing, I found it just

22:39

super liberating because I could be all of these

22:41

different things. I wasn't looking for the

22:44

one authentic itself I

22:47

was looking for all of

22:49

my different layers of identity and

22:52

how those different things

22:55

influenced or shaped

22:58

the way I

22:59

showed up in the world and

23:00

the the relationship that I had

23:03

with myself and that allowed me a much

23:05

more expansive way

23:07

of thinking about my

23:09

work, thinking about what I want

23:11

out of life, and thinking about

23:13

what achievement so

23:15

much as I maybe still hang on

23:17

to that a little bit, what achievement

23:21

look like for that network itself as

23:23

opposed to the doing

23:25

self that always has to be climbing

23:27

the ladder. Yeah.

23:28

And for me, I had never heard of this philosopher

23:30

or this approach, and it was kind of enlightening

23:32

to me. And I I really wanna encourage

23:35

everybody once they have the book to dig

23:37

in deep on this part because I think

23:39

it's really helpful even

23:41

as somebody who has thought a

23:43

lot about and done work with like the

23:45

enneagram and other personality, typing

23:47

systems that each turn the, you

23:49

know, the object of yourself to a

23:51

different angle and let you look at it a little

23:53

bit differently. Mhmm. by doing

23:55

this and having this network self, it

23:58

allows you to not

24:00

hold all of your worth

24:02

on any one of them.

24:05

but on, say, all of them and that that's

24:07

a way to kinda exit out of

24:09

what you call the the validation spiral

24:11

where we get looped into

24:13

this never ending cycle of the doing is

24:16

who I am. Yeah. The

24:17

doing is who I am and the doing

24:20

is what

24:20

makes me worthy of

24:24

relationships makes me worthy

24:26

of existing. Right? I think

24:28

especially, you know, as a woman,

24:30

but anyone holding any

24:32

kind

24:32

of identity in this world,

24:34

you know, there's we get all

24:36

of these messages about

24:39

having to prove our and I I think,

24:41

you know, the message to prove ourself is

24:43

universal. That's a message of capitalism.

24:46

Right? And if Mary talk or see.

24:48

You have to prove that you

24:50

can move up the ladder, that you

24:52

can be a valuable part of

24:54

society. And so we tend,

24:56

as you say, to kind of latch on to

24:58

certain identities and

25:00

use the external

25:03

validation to support

25:05

the way we see

25:08

ourselves as those identities. You

25:10

know? So we end up saying yes to

25:12

responsibilities and tax

25:14

and goals that reinforce

25:16

that particular identity,

25:18

but often at the

25:21

expense of other identities.

25:23

Right? So I certainly have an

25:25

identity as a business owner, as an

25:27

entrepreneur. And

25:29

if all I focus on is

25:32

validation for particular identity,

25:35

I'm probably going

25:38

to miss or

25:40

I'm going to to work against my

25:42

identities as a feminist, as

25:44

a creator, as you

25:46

know, someone who loves

25:49

to just really think deeply

25:51

about

25:51

ideas. And I'm just gonna

25:54

chase money or chase

25:56

business growth, which that's sort of

25:58

the the genesis of this whole thing in

25:59

the first place. And, yeah, and then that

26:02

just creates a cycle where where

26:04

our resources become more

26:06

and more depleted And

26:09

it really creates a sense of

26:11

self alien Asian where you

26:13

just feel like, you know,

26:15

that one identity has been

26:17

sort of cleaved off of the

26:18

other identities and were just

26:21

that and the whole rest of you

26:23

is sort of waiting for you to

26:25

remember that it's there. And that's just it's

26:27

a really unsatisfying

26:29

kind of

26:30

internal experience.

26:32

We

26:33

all know that we need professional help

26:35

for our mental health, and luckily, it's

26:37

become less stigmatized, but there's still

26:39

a lot of little barriers in our head.

26:42

We allow to be excuses like

26:44

the scheduling of it or the travel time

26:46

and then the waiting time and being out

26:48

of our comfort zone and then opening up

26:50

and talking not easy, and all of that can be exhausting. But

26:52

using Talkspace, it feels a little like having a

26:54

therapist in your pocket. That's why being able to reach

26:56

out to my therapist or psychiatrist anytime

26:58

from anywhere makes taking care of my mental

27:00

health super easy. I'm more relaxed when I'm

27:02

traveling, knowing if I need to talk to my therapist, I

27:04

can just send wherever I am. Working

27:06

through things in therapy can be tough by connecting

27:09

with my therapist isn't. I

27:11

wholeheartedly recommend talk space for therapy.

27:13

You can sign up online and start

27:15

therapy the same day you sign up, you can

27:17

text, video, or send voice messages to

27:19

your licensed therapist. So it's

27:21

incredibly convenient to have virtual sessions from

27:23

the comfort of your home. Talkspace has

27:25

thousands of licensed therapists

27:27

with years of experience in over forty

27:29

specialties including depression, anxiety,

27:32

substance abuse. drama, anger

27:34

management, relationship issues, food and

27:36

eating and more. And as a listener of this

27:38

podcast, you'll get a hundred dollars off your

27:40

first month with Talkspace. To match with a licensed therapist

27:42

today, just go to talk space dot com.

27:44

Make sure to use the code list, LIST

27:46

to get a hundred dollars off your first

27:49

month and show support for the show. That's LIST

27:51

list at talkspace dot

27:54

com. Shortly is the number one rated

27:56

inventory management app. track manage

27:58

your business' inventory, supplies,

28:00

materials, parts,

28:02

tools, equipment, and anything else

28:05

that your business run, certainly can be used on

28:07

any device, mobile, desktop, tablet,

28:09

and syncs automatically across all users

28:12

and devices. update inventory seamlessly,

28:14

and in real time with your whole team.

28:16

Perfect for businesses with multiple locations.

28:18

Track every detail about your items as they

28:20

move across your business. location, quantity,

28:23

cost, condition, and any other custom

28:25

detail you choose. You can even set

28:27

custom low to remind you

28:29

when it's time to reorder and ensure you never run out of

28:31

stock. And thanks to SORTLIE's in app barcode

28:34

scanner, you can create a barcode or

28:36

QR code system for your

28:38

entire inventory right from your smartphone.

28:40

No extra equipment required.

28:42

Save your business time and money by ditching

28:44

spreadsheets and switching to shortly.

28:46

Go to shortly dot dot com slash beyond

28:48

for forty percent off the advanced

28:50

or ultra plans, your first year.

28:52

That's shortly dot com slash

28:54

beyond for forty percent off your

28:56

first year. Once you've

28:59

wrestled with this though, I think people can agree.

29:01

There's a lot of different wrestling that can happen with

29:03

this, where it comes to self awareness,

29:05

it comes to knowing yourself, but then it's

29:08

like, okay. But I still need to

29:10

air quotes, get things done.

29:12

So how does this tie into

29:15

setting goals and then actually achieving

29:18

them. What's the perspective shift

29:20

there? And I think before we go to

29:22

that place of talking about what you talk

29:24

about with practice and process. And in

29:26

fact, in the book, that doesn't come till after the

29:28

part I wanna talk about first, which is

29:31

understanding our capacity, and I love

29:33

this because -- Mhmm. -- this is something I have

29:35

heard from listeners specifically about

29:37

in the past. that, well, I am

29:39

not a a business owner. I am not a this

29:41

or I am not a that again. We could go to all those

29:43

network selves and list them all off. But I

29:45

am not most of those things.

29:47

minor different. I'm not gonna say

29:49

that what I do doesn't matter, but

29:51

I'm not in charge of a lot of

29:54

things. I'm just trying to make sure my household

29:56

and my day job and

29:58

my relationships function,

30:00

and my

30:02

capacity is smaller than

30:04

somebody else's. Yeah.

30:05

I think understanding

30:08

well, I I can't say that I understand

30:11

capacity, but the shift

30:13

in perspective on how

30:15

much I can get done and

30:17

what I even just the

30:19

tasks or projects that I

30:21

can get done that I have the

30:23

resources for, has been

30:25

absolutely huge for me, both in

30:27

kind of like a intellectual existential

30:29

way, but also

30:30

on a logistical day to

30:33

day basis. So when I

30:35

talk about capacity, what

30:37

I'm really talking about is

30:39

our access

30:39

to resources. And resources

30:42

or anything from, like, time,

30:45

money, skills, emotional

30:47

bandwidth, mental bandwidth, and

30:49

there's a lot of

30:51

variation in our

30:53

access to those things. For some people,

30:55

they have tons

30:56

of time, but no money. Actually,

30:58

I don't know many people that

31:00

have that particular makeup, but it's

31:02

a possibility. Right? Other people have

31:04

lots of money and absolutely no

31:06

time. Some people are very strained

31:09

with both time and money, but

31:11

maybe they have an incredible

31:13

skill. They have an incredible network

31:15

of people around them. We

31:17

all have this different

31:19

sort of set of resources that

31:21

are available to

31:24

us. And that set of

31:26

resources gets allocated across

31:28

all of the work

31:30

that we do, all of the places that

31:32

we need to expend energy.

31:35

So that's at home. It's at work.

31:37

It's in your life with

31:39

yourself. It's in your

31:41

intimate relationships. And

31:43

the more we sort of

31:46

commit to kind

31:48

of commit our resources to the

31:50

fewer resources we have to

31:52

go around, And so one

31:54

of the big perspective shifts that I had in thinking about

31:56

capacity was recognizing

31:58

that I

31:59

have very little

32:02

access

32:02

to some of the resources

32:05

that are needed in

32:07

my day to day life, in my day to day

32:09

work. So one of those things is

32:11

emotional bandwidth. For

32:14

me, you know, talking to people

32:16

not so much podcast interviews, but,

32:18

you know, doing client sessions

32:20

having a coffee day, whatever it might be,

32:22

those times are very

32:24

emotionally draining for me. So,

32:26

you know, and and from my husband,

32:29

they are absolutely not. So for my husband, the cost

32:31

of that hour is just one

32:33

hour of time. For

32:36

me, it costs me the hour

32:39

and it costs me a level

32:41

of relational functioning that

32:43

I won't get back. for

32:45

the rest of that day. It

32:48

uses me up in that

32:50

area. And so one of the things that I've

32:52

had to realize about my own capacity

32:54

is that limitation.

32:55

And what does it look like to

32:58

what does my business need to look like? What

33:00

does my relationship need to look

33:02

like? All these things if

33:05

I

33:05

limit the availability

33:08

I have to expend

33:11

that resource. So for me, specifically, that looks

33:13

like, what does it look like to have

33:16

absolutely no more than

33:19

five calls in a week.

33:21

How does my way of working?

33:23

How does my business? How do my

33:25

expectations need to shift? if that's the

33:27

capacity limit I'm going to put

33:29

on emotional bandwidth during

33:31

my workweek. And so that's a

33:34

hard stop for me. You calendar won't

33:37

allow more events than that to get

33:39

scheduled. One of the

33:41

awesomeness benefits of automatic

33:43

scheduling is the ability to limit

33:45

things in that way. And so if

33:47

I put those hard limits on,

33:50

I put soft limits on the same thing.

33:52

Right? Because it's not just my

33:54

automated scheduler that's, you know, cutting me

33:56

off. I have to cut myself

33:58

off. And so just being able to

33:59

recognize, no, I can't.

34:02

I do not have the

34:05

resources to be on the phone

34:07

more than five hours

34:07

a week or to be on Zoom, more than five hours

34:09

a week.

34:10

That's a hard line for

34:12

me. And I think that for

34:14

as much as we know, you know, that we

34:16

work too much. We work too

34:19

hard. We're constantly go

34:22

go going. we know all

34:24

that and we still think we're

34:26

invincible. We still think we have

34:28

unlimited capacity. And so

34:30

for me, that effective shift with capacity

34:32

has been saying, no,

34:34

no,

34:34

I don't. I have

34:36

a limited budget. And

34:39

it's my job to allocate that budget toward the things that are

34:41

most important to me and that

34:43

are most important to the functioning

34:45

of my life. And

34:48

beyond that, I don't have the capacity for

34:50

them. I'm not gonna go after them.

34:52

I can't unless I'm willing

34:55

to give something else up, or

34:57

unless I'm willing to go out

34:59

and source new resources from

35:02

somewhere, you know, because

35:04

sometimes that's possible, like with skills or with knowledge or even

35:06

with money, unless I'm willing to do

35:08

that, I simply do not have

35:10

what it

35:12

takes to add

35:13

something else into my workload

35:15

onto my schedule. So that

35:18

has been

35:19

hugely helpful in just

35:21

being able to say no

35:24

to people and no to

35:26

ideas and no to

35:28

projects. Yeah, I mean, I

35:30

could talk all

35:30

day about capacity and resources. But hopefully, that kind

35:32

of gives you the overview on how

35:35

that thinking for me

35:37

has really shifted. This is one

35:39

of my favorite parts of the book as well because you in a way in the book

35:41

are so much more clear

35:44

and concise

35:47

with your language on something that honestly

35:49

have been trying to wrestle with having

35:51

the right guest or shoot at it

35:53

from the right angle for years now, and you

35:55

came along and just basically spelled it out.

35:58

And and you do it even better

36:00

than you just did it, like, in

36:02

the book. you do it

36:04

so clearly and so well that I, you know,

36:06

I'm just like, I you know, there's bookmark

36:08

pages there and it's just like, okay,

36:10

perfect. And again, to address

36:12

the capacity topic after

36:15

having talked about identity

36:17

and deconstructing, you know, what we've believed

36:19

in the past or what

36:21

we've been told to believe about achievement and goals. It's just

36:23

like music to my ears and then you

36:26

get into

36:28

your actual process, one of the words being actually the word process.

36:31

But before we get to that word, I wanna talk

36:33

about the other one that comes before that,

36:35

which is practice. So What

36:38

do you mean by practice? Yeah. So

36:40

I I

36:40

draw the distinction in the book

36:43

between practice orientation and

36:46

a achievement orientation. I think we all know what achievement orientation

36:48

is either. Again, we're

36:50

very

36:50

much identifying as

36:53

achievement oriented people or

36:55

we're probably to one

36:57

degree or another saying, achievement

36:59

orientation? Or achievement oriented? No. That

37:01

is not me. I I don't care.

37:03

Right? And so but but it's like a

37:06

very familiar way we

37:08

have of building the

37:11

scaffolding for our lives. I'm going

37:13

to build up these different layers of achievement. I'm

37:15

going to hit all these different

37:17

milestones and then I

37:20

will know that I am okay. Right? That was

37:22

my default operating mode

37:24

for the first thirty six or so

37:26

years of

37:27

my life. But when

37:30

I sort of stepped back

37:32

from the goal setting and

37:34

the the relentless push toward

37:36

the next

37:38

thing,

37:38

I realized that a

37:40

different way I could approach my

37:42

work was through the concept

37:46

of practice And, you know, for anyone who is a yoga

37:48

practitioner out there, you're probably

37:50

familiar with the idea of

37:52

your yoga practice. Right? Or if

37:54

you do meditation, you have a

37:56

meditation practice.

37:57

And this is practice

37:59

not in

37:59

terms of

38:02

practice makes perfect because it doesn't. But

38:04

in terms of having

38:06

a routine, having a habit,

38:10

having a way of

38:12

being present in

38:14

whatever it is that you're doing

38:17

in the moments and coming back and doing the same thing the next

38:19

day and the next day after that and the next day

38:22

after that. So this sort

38:24

of set separation or

38:26

difference between practice orientation

38:28

and achievement orientation is,

38:30

what if you start building

38:33

out your plans your business plans, your work plans,

38:35

your family plans around practice

38:38

instead of achievement. around

38:42

being present,

38:44

showing up in a particular way,

38:46

doing a particular thing every day,

38:49

how that shift

38:51

your sense

38:53

of satisfaction. How would it

38:55

shift the actual things that you

38:57

do? And how would

38:59

it shift your kind

39:01

of approach your your relationship

39:04

to growth, to yourself.

39:06

For me, it's been

39:08

a hundred than transformational. I used to be

39:10

sort of

39:10

a kind of productivity

39:13

sprinter. Right? Like

39:16

I would, go out of the

39:18

blocks super hard and I could bang something out

39:20

so fast. Like, I've had people

39:22

say to me. Okay. Terry,

39:25

you're you say this is gonna take you about an hour. Is that an

39:27

hour of normal people's time, or is that an hour of

39:29

terror time? Right? And

39:32

so that was how I used to be.

39:34

Now, I still work pretty fast,

39:38

but I don't ever

39:40

sprint. I never sprint

39:42

anymore. Now it's marathon

39:44

pace all the time. Right?

39:46

Even slower than that. It's

39:49

long run. pace all the time.

39:51

And so it's, you know, with

39:53

the podcast, it's what

39:55

is the practice podcasting look like. How do

39:57

I keep it even and

39:59

present? And

40:04

satisfying every single day

40:06

when I sit down to work on the

40:08

podcast. What does my

40:10

relationship look like? when I'm not

40:12

just thinking about the next achievement,

40:14

which might be, you know, it might be getting

40:16

married, it might be taking a

40:18

vacation, it might be, you know, whatever

40:20

that next thing is

40:22

that I'm trying to go out and get

40:24

in regards to my relationship.

40:26

What

40:26

does a practice around

40:28

that look like? what does showing

40:30

up at a certain time of day or

40:32

in a certain kind of way every

40:35

single time I show

40:37

up in that relationship

40:39

with that sense of,

40:41

you know, the way I want to

40:43

be, the person I want to be

40:45

in that relationship and just being very

40:47

present and aware of what's happening in that

40:49

moment. For me, I would say that I am more

40:52

productive today than I've ever

40:54

been because I'm

40:56

more consistent because

40:58

I orient my whole life and

41:00

work around this idea

41:02

of practice

41:04

and I'm also more satisfied with the work that I do.

41:06

The work that I

41:07

do is of higher

41:09

quality. My life

41:12

is

41:12

a better quality than it used to be.

41:15

I feel better about myself

41:17

most days than

41:19

I used to. And so not

41:22

only am I getting

41:24

more done, I'm getting more of the right

41:26

stuff done, and I'm feeling

41:28

better about it, I have a better relationship

41:30

to it. And I mean, you

41:32

used the word life changing

41:34

earlier and I am not one

41:36

to, like, be extravagant

41:38

with my claims. But for me,

41:40

that has been truly life

41:43

changing. And I know that my

41:45

husband for one would

41:48

certainly mark eighty before

41:50

and after in terms

41:53

of my mental state, in terms

41:55

of the way that I work. you

41:57

know, in the before with achievement

41:59

orientation

41:59

and the after with practice

42:02

orientation. I love

42:02

that. Again, this is the first time I've

42:04

really heard about this, thought about this, and

42:06

I I think it's gonna live on in my brain

42:09

for a long time as I seek to

42:11

incorporate pieces of this, but again, it's it's

42:13

like you're saying something that I'd already had a

42:15

small awareness of, but not the

42:17

words to say it

42:19

out loud or something along those lines. Again, I I don't even have the

42:21

words to describe not being able to describe it.

42:24

Right? So but

42:26

it's interesting when you said,

42:28

like, a yoga practice or a meditation

42:30

practice, it starts to click a little bit for

42:32

people. And other people may even think, well,

42:34

can I substitute the

42:36

word workflow maybe, but I don't know that I would do that

42:38

because workflow sounds a bit

42:40

arbitrary and

42:42

lockstep and you

42:44

know, I know a lot of people are like, these are the productivity nihilist people. I'm

42:46

glad you I I'd never heard that term

42:48

before, but I love it. And the

42:51

people that are like, productivity, it

42:54

boxes me in so much. It's too much

42:56

structure. I just I need freedom. I can't

42:58

use a system. I you know, people that

43:00

bristle against David Allen's getting

43:02

things done and things like that. It's like, you

43:04

know, that's those people. And yet,

43:06

they're not entirely wrong. and I try to

43:08

acknowledge that, but say, but you

43:10

know you could come swing the pendulum

43:12

this way a little bit. And so I'm

43:14

really hoping that people

43:16

hear this not just the word, but the the ethos and ability

43:18

to adopt practice across

43:21

not just their work life,

43:23

but their whole life.

43:25

Yeah. It's

43:25

funny that you that you bring

43:27

up the protect the nihilist again

43:30

here because I think the the

43:32

moment that I knew that I was onto

43:34

something with sharing

43:36

this work and, like, and talking to

43:38

people about this in different ways was

43:40

when my friend Kate Strathman

43:42

who's an enneagram for

43:44

Kate's structure hades to be,

43:46

you know, hemmed in by

43:48

any kind of list

43:52

or process she said, this is helping me get

43:54

organized. This is helping

43:56

me do more of the things that

43:58

I want.

44:00

to do. And I was like, oh, wow. Well, if it's

44:02

working for you, I feel

44:04

pretty good about putting this out into

44:08

the world. Sometimes the concept of practice, I think,

44:10

can feel equally

44:12

like a constraint to some people

44:14

can feel equally like a workflow.

44:17

But you it it's not just what you're

44:20

doing.

44:20

It's how you're doing it. It

44:22

is the ethos behind it. It's the

44:24

philosophy behind it. And so

44:26

that presence

44:27

piece, connecting everything

44:30

in the practice to why

44:32

you are doing it and

44:35

how you are doing it and

44:37

just enjoying doing what

44:39

you're doing. And I know that

44:41

sounds like so fluffy.

44:44

But for me, he who is not a

44:46

fluffy person, at all, it

44:49

really works. and

44:51

it has really worked for transforming my relationship and my

44:53

own work to all of the

44:55

parts of my work that I

44:58

don't love. Right? Like, I don't love

45:00

answering email. I don't love doing administrative things. I don't love any of

45:02

that stuff. But I decided

45:05

in this process that I didn't

45:08

want to outsource it

45:10

anymore. I wanted to embrace it

45:12

as a practice. And so

45:13

for me, now I approach those tasks

45:16

from a completely different

45:18

perspective

45:18

so that they're more

45:21

likely to get done. I'm less likely to hate

45:23

doing them. And I feel really good about

45:26

just the practice of going

45:28

into my inbox once or twice

45:30

a day. of

45:32

running, you know, through my bookkeeping reports or

45:34

whatever, you know, whatever it is that I've

45:36

got on my list that I don't love.

45:39

just approaching it from that practice

45:41

perspective has completely changed my

45:44

relationship to that. There's so much more

45:45

in the book and I

45:47

know we're running short on time here. I do wanna say that

45:49

that couple other things you touch on are

45:52

behavior change

45:54

and approaching

45:56

you know, self sabotage and follow through

45:58

all things that you would naturally would

46:00

need to be talking about in terms

46:02

of setting goals and achieving

46:05

them. think the the one other thing I wanna touch

46:07

on here real quick is just you've also got

46:10

this word process. And if

46:12

you could touch on that just briefly, I'd love

46:14

to kinda tie a bow this.

46:16

So,

46:16

process for me

46:19

is an understanding of

46:21

what all is

46:24

involved in the work that's

46:26

being done. I think another thing that's

46:28

really common in an achievement

46:30

oriented shouldn't supposed to

46:33

sort of system is that the work is

46:36

kind of this alienated ad

46:38

task on a list. It's like, I'm

46:40

doing this

46:42

thing now. And then I've gotta do this

46:44

thing, and then I've gotta do that thing. For me, process is really about understanding

46:47

how any given

46:49

task fits into its

46:52

greater whole. How any given responsibility

46:54

fits into the sort

46:57

of larger identity

46:58

around that or the larger

47:00

system in my life

47:03

and recognizing that as

47:04

I go through

47:07

the pieces of individual,

47:09

you know, discrete tasks that I'm

47:11

impacting an overall process.

47:14

So I'm impacting the

47:16

overall process

47:18

of my podcast. I'm impacting the overall process

47:20

of my relationship with my

47:22

husband. I'm impacting the overall process of

47:26

any of the different systems at work in

47:28

my life or in my I work

47:30

and kind of embracing that

47:34

piece

47:34

of it and recognizing how, you

47:36

know, doing this thing today, it makes the

47:38

next thing easier tomorrow, or it

47:40

impacts this other component of

47:43

the process in a positive way. It's

47:46

allowed more

47:46

of the work to be more

47:50

meaningful, more

47:52

related to purpose and values. And so in

47:54

that process, has become more

47:56

satisfying as well so that

47:58

at the end of

47:59

the day, whether I've gotten everything done, I thought. I was just going to get

48:02

done. I feel satisfied

48:04

with the work that I've put into it or I

48:06

feel satisfied at the

48:07

end of the day that you

48:09

know, whether it was a good day or a bad day, whether it

48:11

was a high productivity

48:12

or a low productivity day, I

48:14

feel satisfied by the way

48:17

I showed up in the process and in

48:19

the practice so that

48:22

I can go to bed

48:24

with a sense of

48:26

completion or of

48:28

readiness for the next day as

48:30

opposed to that sort of

48:32

sense of lack

48:34

or deficit. that

48:35

can often crop up when we're focused on to do list and when

48:37

we're focused on these hyper

48:40

specific achievement

48:42

oriented goals. See in that right

48:44

there is that that feeling of

48:46

satisfaction, that feeling of

48:48

rewardment, regardless of how

48:50

productive a day it was, that is

48:53

a very, very elusive feeling. One that

48:55

I've felt very rarely, but

48:58

have come to, again, going

49:00

through this, And I remember I

49:02

said, almost a life changing book, and I know

49:04

you said your husband could definitely identify

49:06

it before and after for you. I

49:08

think what I really mean is could be

49:10

a degree course correction

49:12

starting right now that ends up taking

49:14

people to a much better place than

49:17

they were headed towards. I

49:18

mean, I I hope that is

49:21

what happens for people. That would make

49:23

me so so happy

49:25

to have that kind of of

49:28

impact.

49:28

That's exactly

49:29

what has happened for me, and it was

49:32

exactly why I needed to to

49:34

share it with more people. There's also a

49:35

whole section in the book that we will not touch right

49:38

now, which is great because it means

49:40

there's more for people to dive into

49:42

all about

49:44

projects and project briefs

49:46

and how to start them,

49:48

what the scope of them should be, and

49:50

what the outcome should be. And again,

49:53

all of that is gonna be right now

49:55

because you've walked through all the different steps of,

49:57

again, identity and capacity

50:00

and practice

50:02

and much more. And again, stuff I mentioned earlier, like behavior change and

50:04

where we get into the messy stuff of

50:07

self sabotage and everything. But It's

50:10

such a good book. I I really want

50:12

people to go grab it. Let's point people towards

50:14

where they can find out one, more about

50:16

you, two, more about your podcast, and then

50:18

three, where to grab the book.

50:20

Sure. Well, you

50:20

can find out more about the podcast wherever

50:22

you're listening to beyond the to do

50:25

list. It is

50:25

also called what

50:28

The book, again, is called WhatWorks, and

50:30

you can find that at explore what works

50:32

dot com slash book

50:36

book. Yes. Explorer, what works dot com

50:38

slash book. And there's links

50:40

there to Amazon Target

50:42

BookShop, your independent book seller,

50:44

wherever you

50:46

find books, you can find what works. And

50:48

then explore what works dot com is

50:50

where to find me, sign up for what

50:52

works weekly, my newsletter, and just

50:56

continue to dig into the

50:58

themes around the book and and this

51:00

conversation today.

51:00

Awesome. Tara, it's been

51:03

awesome talking with you. I definitely know

51:05

you'll be back at some point on

51:07

the show. So thank you so much for

51:09

being here. Thank you,

51:10

Eric. This is so much fun. Thank you.

51:14

Well, that's another podcast crossed

51:15

off your listening to Do List. I hope that

51:17

you enjoyed this conversation with Tara

51:20

McMullen like

51:22

I did. Her book is amazing. You need to grab it. You can find the link

51:24

in the show notes. You can find the show notes at

51:26

beyond the to do list dot com.

51:28

And I really do think this is

51:30

a different enough

51:32

approach on goal setting

51:34

that it was refreshing. It felt

51:36

easy to understand. It

51:40

accommodates people that aren't high achievers, although she is one and

51:42

geared it towards that, it

51:44

definitely feels like a

51:46

holistic approach to goal setting, which

51:48

I think is different than I've ever heard

51:50

before. And again, I highly suggest this. This

51:52

is a great book to grab now. Kind

51:54

of soak up into your brain and then

51:56

use as we head into the new

51:58

year. If you found this conversation

52:00

helpful, would you do me

52:02

that favor someone else favor

52:04

of sharing this episode with them, just

52:06

hit share in that podcast player app of choice.

52:08

Wherever you're listening to this right now, let

52:10

them know you were thinking of and

52:12

why you were thinking of them and how this can help them. And also

52:14

you can grab short cast episodes of

52:16

beyond the to do list from

52:20

blinkist. over at beyond the to do list dot com slash

52:22

blinkist, BLINKIST

52:25

Or if you can't remember that link, it's in the

52:27

show notes for this episode. can

52:29

those out at seven to ten minutes, the essence of

52:32

the podcast, introed and

52:34

transitioned by me in partnership with

52:36

Blenkus. You're gonna

52:38

love it. Go check it out. Thanks for sharing this episode. Thank you

52:40

again for listening, and I will see

52:42

you. Next

52:44

episode.