0:16

come back to another episode of beyond

0:19

the to do list i'm your host eric fisher

0:21

this is the show where i talked to the people

0:23

behind the productivity this week i've

0:26

been looking forward to for a while now this is

0:28

one i've been following and thinking

0:30

about and planning for a very

0:32

long time this is a conversation

0:34

with t ago forte he's one of the world's

0:37

foremost experts on productivity and he

0:39

sought thousands of people around the world how timeless

0:41

principles and the latest technology

0:43

can merge to revolutionize their

0:45

productivity their creativity

0:48

personal effectiveness you've

0:50

got a brand new book out called building

0:52

a second brain a proven

0:54

method to organize your digital life

0:57

and unlock your creative potential

0:59

and this is going into

1:01

my top ten productivity books of all time

1:03

this is one that i would not hold back on

1:06

endorsing and referencing when people ask

1:08

me for a what's the next productivity

1:10

but what's the one i've gotta check out it's this one this

1:12

is the book that you need to get next we

1:14

talk about what a second brain

1:16

is and essentially means that

1:18

you're not holding all the information in your head

1:21

you've created a trusted system sound

1:23

familiar david allen getting things done and

1:25

in fact this book has been compared to david

1:27

allen's getting things done very often

1:30

recently as it has come out it is

1:32

all about picking the right tools creating

1:34

a second brain that trusted getting the

1:36

stuff out of your head organizing

1:39

it being able to go back and use it

1:41

we go through all the different steps that it has

1:43

to do with in terms of capturing

1:45

organizing distilling and expressing

1:48

all those thoughts and sinking

1:50

more thinking better because

1:52

you have a tool in place a second

1:55

the do not overlook this episode

1:57

this is a very important episode

1:59

for productivity so i'm

2:02

gonna way just say enjoy this conversation

2:04

with iago forte well

2:08

this week this my privilege

2:10

to welcome to the show to jago

2:12

forte to jago welcome to

2:14

beyond the to do list thanks eric

2:17

either be listening for years and i would

2:19

expand it's really cool to be here that's

2:21

awesome so that's the way to flatter

2:23

somebody right there has been listening to your podcasts

2:26

podcasts are suspected to a cheaper oh

2:30

my gosh what i've been following you for a while to

2:32

and you know you're in the productivity world

2:34

as well he of this brand new book out

2:37

called building a second brain it's

2:39

been highly anticipated in fact i actually

2:41

know there was a joke out there somewhere one

2:43

of my friends on twitter was saying you know hey i need

2:45

this this and this and this and i said sounds like you need

2:47

see as a new book coming out he said actually my

2:49

friend already has like a super follower

2:51

of him and has been like totally me through certain

2:53

things i'm like okay okay i was just kind of plane

2:56

around but like you'd be in serious so he

2:58

asked if you're in that the in their nice

3:01

the algorithms know that you're interested

3:03

in productivity i think you're not going to be

3:05

able to avoid hearing a myth of it a success

3:07

that's totally true in the thing is is that and

3:09

and i've heard this by other productivity

3:12

people they've said this

3:14

kind of an analogy

3:16

or you know there's a camaraderie there's it

3:18

symbiosis maybe of your

3:21

book building a second brain a proven method

3:23

to organize your digital life and unlocked

3:25

your creative potential i've heard people talk

3:27

about and reference this book

3:29

as a more modern

3:32

version in a sense of getting things

3:34

done how do you feel about that i

3:36

mean i'm happy with a free mean andy

3:39

proud to make a fraction of the in

3:41

fact that these emails while

3:43

same here as that's the thing is like okay

3:45

so we're talking second brain obviously

3:48

that needs definition before we go much

3:50

further so let's talk

3:52

about what is what second

3:54

brain and then look followed up with why

3:56

do we need one i mean it doesn't necessarily

3:59

mean some do a lot of people now

4:01

productivity people we've been kind of thinking about it for

4:03

a long time and thinking back in the

4:05

evernote days where it just came out

4:07

evernote knock out the same and are no

4:10

reputation they used to have although they've been

4:12

rebounding here and there have been a on their whole

4:14

mascot saying of an elephant that never forgets

4:16

this is not just dumping things in

4:18

to somewhere like evernote and

4:20

leaving at their knowledge you explain it so

4:23

what is a second grade why do we need one

4:25

okay i started

4:27

at the beginning a second brain is my

4:30

term for a system

4:32

it say technology system

4:34

that list outside of your head as

4:37

important parts it's outside your brain

4:39

it's in the in the concrete physical

4:41

world and it's a place

4:43

where you put all

4:45

of the information that matters most you scan

4:47

a hard to wrap your head around how many

4:49

different sizes information that can include it's

4:52

simple things like you know to dues

4:55

reminders and as on your calendar

4:57

all the way to more as they create

5:00

is or divergent

5:02

or imaginative things like a

5:04

little snippets you know could see read

5:06

in books or heard on podcast

5:09

it could be imagery photos graphic

5:11

screenshots the web sites it

5:13

could be examples of a business case

5:15

that he the cubbies and bulls hours you

5:17

know design example the marketing

5:20

headlines it can be stories to

5:22

be series frameworks like this kind of

5:24

depends on on the can work for you do whatever

5:26

kind where he do think about the output that

5:28

you produce what is the scene

5:30

at the end is all day the end of your we the

5:33

you outputs well whatever that

5:35

i'll put his you also need inputs

5:37

you need fuel you need creators

5:40

raw material that becomes the building

5:42

blocks the in of the raw material

5:44

for whatever did he creates and you second

5:46

brain is the repository were all those things with

5:49

though to go to david allen he

5:51

actually has a quote us to use this

5:53

quote in the book in the beginning of the but your mind

5:55

is for have an idea is not holding

5:58

them and i instantly resin did

6:00

with this thought because

6:02

it had

6:02

pieces of it in the past

6:05

not necessarily a full blown system

6:07

but at least a place where

6:09

i was readily capturing things him

6:11

before him knew what productivity was productivity

6:14

was you know a junior hire who was carrying

6:16

around us little pocket kind of flip

6:18

open notebook like easier a reporter do

6:20

in like old timey movies or whatever and

6:22

pull out and quickie pan and just write something

6:25

down and capture it now capturing

6:27

isn't the only piece it's not just

6:29

about again like i alluded to earlier it's not

6:31

just about capturing and throwing things

6:33

away for later although that's part

6:36

of it why do we need a second

6:38

yeah see i agree question and

6:40

i encourage people you know school

6:43

disclaimer this world as the second

6:45

brain building also known as p km

6:47

we're stands for personal knowledge management's

6:50

and so easily become a kind

6:52

of instinet like

6:54

grab a trail where you sort

6:56

of lose yourself in

7:00

enlists kind of optimizing and

7:02

triad different out sinks and sinks and

7:04

organizing is a real organising again it

7:07

can become kind of an unhealthy obsession

7:09

and so i'm always kind of warning people

7:12

with a from that first but second everything

7:14

that i talk about is about action

7:16

ability and is really answered your question there

7:19

are reasons to collect content

7:21

for it's own sake think of journaling

7:23

like it there are benefits to writing things down

7:25

and the first place will just find the what i

7:27

really focus on is a different

7:30

kind of benefit which is how you're

7:32

able to take action better

7:34

action more effective accents faster

7:37

action more powerful leveraged

7:39

action because those the constant

7:41

in your second britain so it's for some

7:43

people and means making better decisions where

7:45

it is purely speculative a senior leave their

7:47

what is you could increase the quality

7:49

of your decisions by twenty percent that

7:51

seems hard how you just increase the quality

7:53

of its decisions well i sounded my

7:55

own business it depends on my inputs i

7:58

just need to collect better i

8:00

need to talk to people like to see any to

8:02

find see no case studies of people

8:04

who made a similar decision and either has success

8:07

or failure see can think about decision making

8:09

you can figure out project management you could think about

8:11

creative work writing designing

8:13

painting music you can

8:15

think about specific and see making

8:17

systems more sense making them

8:20

more user friendly i think the diversity

8:22

of kinds of ways you can use

8:25

the counters in your second brain is so wide

8:27

that actually the challenges self you

8:29

have to sign like one concrete example

8:31

that really knew something to you which

8:33

is why i'm kind of always just sitting on as

8:36

many levels as i can but that

8:38

one first these cases like the

8:40

different for each person like as a

8:42

first use case there's also the term thrown

8:44

around quick when yes

8:46

again to go back to david allen it's this whole trusted

8:49

system a systems one thinks a trusted

8:51

system when the you're actually going to put stuff in

8:53

a news is really the key the

8:55

linchpin is that trust and so

8:57

someone wants to know okay

8:59

i'm gonna build a second brain okay i

9:02

try to get the why behind it but

9:04

now i need to know not just the how

9:06

to do it but the fact of how

9:08

do i build it slash then how do

9:10

i use it like how a second brain works

9:12

in other words you need trust to trust the system

9:15

but then that trust kind of folds in on itself and

9:17

compounds you know like interest in builds

9:20

there's an angle that i think not a lot of people appreciate

9:22

is like try to trust

9:24

is very personal thing that's

9:27

not a formula such as follow these three

9:29

steps he was think about people you trust hi

9:33

it takes having some shared experiences

9:36

takes really seen that person's character

9:38

seen you know who they are under fire

9:41

or who they are under stress or who they are when you're

9:43

under stress when you're in a crisis

9:45

in a kennel a funny way i guess is does

9:47

appropriate i see my second bring to the person that

9:50

, ideas it has sometimes

9:52

i mostly get has feelings for

9:54

dinner and so you're

9:56

not you're know it downloading out as months

9:58

thing but less

9:59

according to like meeting someone at a bar

10:02

okay it's a good first contact doesn't

10:04

mean you have a trusted system it's take

10:06

some some working with that

10:09

it takes some experiences it takes time and

10:11

death by the way why i wrote a book and have a course

10:13

it's like there is a process here is

10:16

a process of personalizing a second brain customizing

10:18

it trying out different experiments in

10:21

a one way of eating as i could bring my work sense

10:23

has to be wealth for me or for someone

10:25

with my fault incentives for you see

10:27

how to find your own relationship to

10:30

yeah well okay so you just described

10:32

the building of it in the learning to trust

10:34

it isn't that it's a process it's not something

10:36

that's instantaneous for a lot of people out

10:39

there like with all these other productivity

10:41

and just productivity system but tool they

10:43

hesitated started yet another

10:45

tool because they

10:48

don't want to spend time in other words one of

10:50

the bog down things productivity is the setting

10:52

up of the thing instead of the actual

10:54

doing of the work right so it's

10:56

not just building a second brain it's

10:59

what benefit does it give me a does

11:01

the reward in other words trade off on

11:03

the time that i've spent investing in

11:05

the creating of the second break the

11:07

ice fishing employee is one of those

11:09

things i wish i could flip a switch to

11:11

the house just everyone understand this

11:14

i think he only understand when you go through this process

11:16

of like over engineering our optimizing

11:19

over organizing over collecting you

11:21

have to kind of feel the pain the

11:24

ass and how pointless much of

11:26

it is because yeah yeah you're totally right it's like

11:28

setting up your productivity systems is

11:30

the most dangerous

11:33

form of procrastination it is

11:35

the most emptying pitfall

11:38

feel my productivity i

11:40

mean it does right like it

11:42

feels very it feels rewarding

11:45

even your ear getting set up you're creating

11:47

the perfect environment, you're doubting

11:50

all the i's and crossing all the it

11:52

feels like you are your odds

11:54

of success is this thing about it is

11:57

easier is the intermediate steps i

11:59

could just be the do intermediate steps does

12:01

not mean that the final outcome is gonna be more successful

12:03

and i would even say and a swirl we lived in that is

12:05

so awesome movie there are

12:08

more inserts and than ever like windows

12:10

of opportunity that were faced with the opening

12:12

close so fast indies

12:14

week sometimes that and the biggest

12:17

danger now is actually not

12:19

having the right price activity system

12:21

the biggest danger is just not acting not

12:24

having the decisiveness not just

12:26

taking action when the opportunity arises

12:29

it's

12:31

time to reboot, your credit card with apple

12:33

card apple card gives you up to 3%

12:36

daily cash back on, everything

12:38

you buy it's real cash that never

12:40

expires or loses value used it

12:43

grab morning coffee or payback a

12:45

friend plus there isn't a single

12:47

fee apply now in the wallet

12:49

app on iphone and start using it

12:51

right away subject to credit approval,

12:53

daily cash is available via an apple

12:55

cash card or as a a statement credit card

12:58

customer agreement for terms and conditions apple

13:00

cash card is issued by green dot bank member

13:03

ft i see variable a p r's range

13:05

from thirteen point two four percent

13:07

to twenty four point twenty four percent based on credit

13:09

worthiness rates as of august first

13:12

twenty twenty two

13:15

i want to jump into the superpowers

13:17

of a second bring because i think those are really

13:19

be convincing bullet lists

13:22

if there is one for not

13:24

just the why but the long

13:26

term investment what that pay out ends

13:28

up being and i think it also helps people

13:30

relate in a sense as to some

13:32

of the benefits they've experienced

13:35

in previous of endeavors when

13:37

it comes to either like journaling or capturing

13:39

or other productivity related topics

13:42

like those because like for example

13:44

first one of the superpowers or the second brain making

13:47

our ideas concrete in other words externalising

13:50

something getting it out of your head

13:52

right i mean this is the whole david allen thing is like

13:54

your your quote of his was saying your mind it's

13:56

for having ideas now for holding them were

13:58

overloaded with data the were trying to hold

14:01

that on our brains at all times like i do have

14:03

and i'm willing to let ago but i have a ton

14:05

of useless information about which actors

14:08

have played which roles in what things

14:10

and yes i'm constantly on

14:12

i am be be because i'm always curious

14:15

but i'm willing to let it go i know

14:17

that it's out there in the i am the

14:19

be and i trust that sister the

14:22

really kind of weird metaphor here for this for analogy

14:24

for what i'm saying is by externalize

14:27

and much like sage journals you

14:30

get it out of your head and

14:32

that can be fought can be feelings i can

14:34

be whatever and you can go back and you can even

14:36

re read those and make connections

14:39

and me i was time has passed and have spent a year

14:41

i have to did this recently i look back at journal entry

14:43

from a year ago last summer and i thought oh my gosh

14:46

have come so far and yet dot

14:48

in other ways but to be able to like acknowledge

14:51

that is some of the the superpower

14:53

so you're not getting back to therefore superpowers

14:55

of the second brain and one of

14:57

them is making ideas concrete

15:00

from externalising things you have

15:02

more thoughts on that specific bullet

15:04

and else talk about the other three does i think convincing

15:06

somebody as to the investment on a second

15:09

brain really stems from the superpowers

15:12

yeah i think so i do as many

15:14

sauce the of all book

15:17

of them and more or yeah i yeah would even

15:19

more than was included there you know added

15:21

the book is always just like those ten percent that

15:23

didn't get caught get caught sitting this is so

15:25

underrated is so underrated

15:27

even we've been told you know

15:29

oh he said journal he said he

15:31

now even like cognitive behavioral therapy

15:33

is a lot of alex externalising your thoughts we still

15:36

have not fully discovered the power

15:38

of getting the ideas and thoughts in their

15:40

head which when they

15:42

are there are jumbled and

15:44

messy and and sight unseen

15:46

and triggering an anxiety

15:48

provoking and just very unclear

15:51

or the to sort of like these league clouds

15:53

of thoughts setting them overhead he

15:55

has as the originals has a political revolution

15:58

known as fading that it and

16:00

i we're still grappling with the impact

16:02

of it you know millennia later interpersonal

16:04

as a some fascinating says i

16:06

think i cited in the my book and that would just

16:09

the after the writing things down like will start just

16:11

right there with the you don't even see them yes

16:14

just the actor reading a dent in that very

16:16

moment there is a lot of evidence

16:18

that it improves your mental health

16:20

your physical health your blood pressure

16:23

your ability you the to they did studies on people

16:25

who'd been laid off their billie to get a new job

16:27

their ability to survive personal

16:29

crises all these different pests

16:31

just from reading don't even have no one including

16:34

themselves ever read with it had written down

16:36

it's just that benefit

16:38

of externalising the ineffective

16:40

while of podcasting so much that you know confessions

16:43

my love talking out

16:46

loud getting it out in front

16:48

of not just other people like you here

16:50

listening and others you know listening to

16:52

this file weeks from now i like

16:54

hearing my son i like hearing myself talk

16:56

smelled it does it's worse than that it's it's

16:58

it's better than that i should say it's us it

17:00

comes down to sometimes i've got to externalize

17:03

it verbal we and then listen back

17:05

to it and then i'm like oh i

17:07

didn't even know i thought that consciously right

17:10

until a singer an ally with it and

17:12

could turn it around you know metaphorically

17:15

in my hands are on paper or digitally

17:17

that's just one of the benefits

17:19

here is just did it out of your

17:21

head so you can actually work

17:23

with it now that's not to say you're not using your brain to work

17:25

with this but now it doesn't just live in your

17:28

brain yeah exactly

17:30

only one it's outside your head can you start

17:32

to do things like analyze it

17:34

analyze value it it's objectively a just

17:36

subjectively was in your mind you

17:39

can improve you can edit

17:41

it it's almost like editing your thoughts

17:43

and nothing mention other benefits are you sure

17:45

it you can get feedback on it that you can you

17:47

know showed to someone else and sort of mailed

17:50

in their thinking with you're seeking and make it

17:53

greater than anything either anything

17:55

either come up with by your spouse is a kind of magic

17:57

that happens when you externalize when

18:00

express something added to the world

18:02

it takes on a life of it's own and once

18:04

it has less of it's own it can learn aging

18:07

grow can improve expand

18:09

to none of this is really possible as long as it's stuck

18:11

in your head what woman in a key pieces

18:13

then is that as your externalising

18:17

and you can see it you start to see

18:19

connections either two things that

18:21

you've already been thinking about

18:24

or things that are gonna come down

18:26

the pike later that you're

18:28

not even aware of are coming but because you externalize

18:30

this and then in turn externalized

18:33

something else there's an association

18:36

almost a mind mapping but you have

18:38

to have it outside of your brain nord of this to start

18:40

to see those lines connect absolutely

18:42

that's when this there's two other ones one

18:44

is incubation or i

18:46

like to call this crackpot thinking you

18:50

know it's it's not microwave thinking it's not even oven

18:52

thinking it's crock pot he set it up

18:54

and then you let it sit there all day

18:56

and then when he come back at the end all the ingredients

18:59

i'm melded together and something amazing exactly

19:03

exist a slow burn for ideas

19:05

instead of suit yes both

19:08

are welcome yeah and in the last superpower

19:10

is this idea that

19:13

by one externalising things

19:15

to seeing the connection between those

19:17

ideas and seen those ideas

19:19

grow and morris and

19:22

be some curated and

19:24

or polished over time you

19:26

end up with your own perspective

19:29

that is you know sharper more clarity

19:32

driven exactly the awards the

19:34

of the wording that i used in the book remind me the

19:37

sharpening unique perspective

19:40

oh yes close to where when it

19:42

is sorry my my first screen has atrophied

19:45

because lie i did and so my so must

19:47

submit that but this yeah

19:50

the setting is the last one to this kind of the most subtle

19:53

is we feel like

19:55

i mean when you go online especially you to

19:57

a wash and other people's perspectives

20:00

right and like every time you log

20:02

on and you just get pummeled from every

20:04

direction ah

20:07

by the be opinions to t

20:09

the hot takes veto the

20:12

the prospectus of all these people

20:14

many of whom you don't know don't care

20:16

about me who are not qualified or

20:18

are disqualified many of whom are just

20:20

starting off what they saw last minute

20:23

there's little consideration little more than

20:25

of self reflection and so it's easy

20:27

to testing to can exist like

20:30

it's kind of like stepping into a blizzard

20:32

you just kind of except say you're just going

20:34

to be pummeled from all sides by opinions

20:37

but i think what's what's hard to and important to grasp

20:39

is that your perspective manners hear

20:41

your perspective your collection of my experiences

20:44

the things you've seen and done inexperienced

20:47

and felt and learned give

20:49

you a point of view maybe

20:51

it's the point of view on the world need to get the point of view in

20:53

your industry maybe it's the point of view on

20:55

your organization or your team

20:57

or at least just about your own

20:59

work in your own life that no one else has

21:02

no one else shares google can't provide

21:06

how will that some perspective and that

21:08

is largely is are you that we offer

21:10

as professionals he like he used to be about

21:12

you having specific specialized knowledge

21:14

it's not really about that anymore at all knowledge is

21:17

a sweet a marketed as so

21:19

what does a statue a living breathing

21:21

human being contribute now that everything

21:23

is public everything is open source practically

21:26

it's a way of thinking like

21:28

an algorithm it is a lens

21:30

that they are able to put up to

21:32

the world and make

21:35

decisions take our sins discover

21:37

incisive know machine not

21:39

yet at least is able to see i

21:42

think the thing is is that the

21:44

in a week we hear a lot of talks where

21:46

people are like you know they hesitate to

21:49

start a blog or to start a business

21:51

or or start a podcast because they think

21:53

somebody else is already out there talking

21:55

about not just on that medium that i

21:57

want to do it on they're talking about the

22:00

the topic that i want to talk about and

22:02

this is a way to

22:04

have a path forward create

22:07

that thing and kickstart that whatever it

22:09

is with , own unique perspective

22:11

because you've taken the time to capture

22:14

and externalize and

22:16

then create new associations

22:18

and let things incubate but then

22:20

you sharpens your unique perspective and

22:23

then it truly is unique even if you're doing

22:25

a spin on something somebody else has already

22:27

done it's uniquely you

22:30

exactly and it's always a spin there's

22:32

nothing new under the sun yat sen

22:35

known as a ritual of policing originals than seen

22:38

originals two thousand b c everything is it

22:40

everything a spin off or a remix

22:42

or i remix to use that term this idea

22:44

of originality is really overvalued the

22:46

idea that actually are successful that actually make

22:48

an impact than not original ones are ones

22:51

that are just it's or tweet to little

22:53

spin off of something that already exists

22:56

this something else here that i i really want people

22:58

to to get i think so that

23:00

people say out a second brain say or or

23:02

they're just all this software for like content

23:05

managements and clinton craziness asleep

23:07

for bloggers and pie casters

23:09

and you tube or as you know that's the only and

23:11

creators of the world is it is i mean

23:13

to say good for them by what a consultant

23:16

understand it is normally creators are

23:18

just the forefront of what everyone

23:20

is going to be doing or is already do the

23:22

in the next year's now if

23:24

you are giving presentations to a team

23:26

at work what do you think that is thus

23:29

content a you created as you

23:31

are you writing internal memos if you're

23:33

writing like long emails that

23:35

explain something more seats and thing

23:37

or tell a story or

23:39

make it pits are persuasive

23:42

let us all costs increase and that's

23:44

all any of us are doing is creating content

23:47

and sending it through various means to various

23:49

people to try to influence them so given

23:51

that all knowledge workers are virtually

23:53

all content creators don't you think you could do

23:55

that better the content be more

23:58

effective could be more succinct

24:00

more convincing i mean i really

24:02

think really people who work on computers

24:04

or anything beyond that needs to think

24:06

about what is their point of view what is

24:08

their opinion our their modes to

24:11

influence others to take on that point of view that

24:13

the future of of work

24:15

the people may be familiar with this

24:17

concept without knowing it they may

24:19

be familiar with a flavor of this

24:22

that's been around for a very long time as referred

24:24

to as the commonplace

24:26

books what are your thoughts on that yeah

24:29

you know unless huge fan of history

24:31

i think a lot of people openness both singing our

24:33

second brain i'm in here but a lot of futuristic

24:36

chino artificial intelligence that insists

24:38

i fi stuff stay most

24:40

of the book is history i think the

24:42

hidden history is is informative

24:45

the tells us what has can be for like as others nothing

24:47

union son though when i was

24:49

researching this book and of course

24:52

the came before it i wanted to know

24:54

what has come before what did human

24:56

beings do and other periods of history

24:58

where they say information overload where

25:00

they ceased a tremendous amount of saints and uncertainty

25:03

and it turns out hours surprise i was amazed

25:06

to hear there's such a closed parallel

25:08

that happened a couple hundred years ago which

25:10

is the in the early years of the industrial

25:12

revolution you know eighteenth nineteenth

25:14

centuries some even as far back as

25:16

the seventeenth century intellectuals

25:19

and people who were

25:21

influential during the as far

25:23

back as the renaissance with leonardo da vinci but

25:26

more so during the enlightenment and industrial

25:28

revolution they would keep his book called countless

25:30

books they were like collide the ships

25:32

they were like scrapbooks but for

25:34

making sense of the world they were right

25:36

in all quotes from books they read

25:39

or things they heard in conversation

25:41

they would puts you in drawing of something

25:43

from nature and newspaper clipping

25:45

a leaf said they sound it

25:47

was this kind of place that

25:50

was fully under their control know that

25:52

wasn't the government or the church

25:54

or some external institution telling

25:56

them what to do surprise it's

25:58

arsenal place amy

26:00

the rules and they could put in whatever they

26:02

wanted to put in there to make sense of their world

26:05

and is so telling to me and illuminating

26:07

that we're now funnier than the same place with

26:10

the same desire to have to have sense

26:12

making tool except now we

26:14

have is godlike powers

26:16

with technology and will we can do with more easily

26:19

with into a faster we can do it in a way

26:21

that salaries are careers in our businesses

26:23

it's really just the whole circle

26:26

coming back around to the same place

26:28

there you go that's the kind of evernote analogy

26:30

their i think that again it goes

26:33

way beyond that in fact that you know

26:35

it goes beyond just capturing because

26:37

you can't just kept your you can't just as

26:39

i looted to before ever know got a bad

26:41

rap because a lot of people would dump things

26:43

into it and yeah you can search through

26:45

their which is a benefit of digital

26:47

over analog unless you've got a really good organizational

26:50

system for analog in fact i like

26:52

doing kind of a capturing brain dump

26:55

you know go to a coffee shop sit there and zip on

26:57

coffee and have just a legal pad

27:00

and just a physical pen or pencil

27:02

and do that but the problem is

27:04

is you probably want to not just

27:07

capture it but then put it into

27:09

something so i think we we probably should move into the

27:11

phase of you know okay and

27:13

sold i hear that superpowers they're

27:15

awesome i've done maybe flavors of this

27:17

in the past but how do i get started

27:20

with what the ago is saying

27:22

in terms of actual

27:24

execution of not just creation

27:27

but maintaining the second brain

27:30

that is the question don't have a huge

27:32

video that cause was

27:35

people through similar a command which the

27:37

thirty day experiment thirty

27:39

days thirty days to

27:41

test some of my clients and

27:44

essentially alternate summarized the main just

27:46

for that is buddha up download

27:49

open whatever know sap you are

27:51

either already use rd housed

27:54

the amazing thing is you can just very much

27:56

use the built in default notes up on

27:58

your phone or tablet or computer

28:01

iowa supplements and

28:03

your it has different ones depending on when it's version

28:05

of injuries but that's incredible thing

28:07

is virtually every one of the several billion

28:09

devices in the world says

28:12

some way to take notes so you can just start

28:14

there perfect what they were going

28:16

people do is to just create a few

28:19

just the sick notes one

28:21

for you to do so you don't

28:23

need in the beginning a dedicated task

28:25

manager if you have no experience with

28:27

this just as good as the a single know

28:29

or just write a little list of

28:32

half a dozen or doesn't things you have to do death

28:34

already externalising right sector

28:36

didn't you want to create a new radius

28:40

eventually you can use my paris

28:42

system and have a different category than a whole

28:44

work for for for this but i'm telling you

28:46

just put my claims the test to

28:48

still little experiments and

28:50

one know where one idea prestigious

28:53

read them you can also set

28:55

up things like siri to work with your notes

28:57

are different with assistance or different

28:59

mobile operating systems have these things

29:01

like these little were close ups where you can add

29:03

like a widget to the lock screen to meet a little bit easier

29:06

on a flight go all in your phone and open up

29:08

the out it does to glued to the set up to sign

29:11

just two or three of the easiest ways to capture

29:13

i just i was a couple know like that things to do

29:15

and ideas after them over the

29:17

course of the month see if you are

29:20

ready start to seal this

29:22

lightening of the of the mental load right

29:25

most people if this is something that

29:27

they are interested in that sits with them already

29:29

served a few more clarity or peace of

29:31

mind they don't feel as stressed

29:33

they start to be be rely on this

29:36

cool as an extension of their brain

29:38

shit is which frees up space in their

29:40

first for you to just either

29:42

he more presence or be more relaxed

29:44

or finish work the little the earlier the

29:47

we give you cash out those benefits depends

29:49

on you by it's i think what makes

29:52

all the second bring some so promising i

29:54

felt like okay spend six months or year

29:57

doing all this difficult heavy labor

29:59

and then one day the benefits like

30:01

we were talking about before the benefits begin

30:03

immediately if they begin

30:05

they second the you start writing as

30:07

writing say start from there and they just expand

30:10

as much as and to whatever extent

30:12

it makes sense free obviously goes beyond

30:14

just capturing it goes into organizing

30:17

what kind of organizational

30:19

processes obviously has got

30:21

a suit the person and we're all you need butter

30:24

what are some of the different ways that you suggest

30:26

people start to organize what they've captured

30:29

yeah the i get it so i have this

30:31

methodology is code cod

30:33

which stands for kind of the four stages

30:36

that ideas that you capture move serve

30:38

the see his capture oh is organized d

30:40

as the still use express so

30:42

you're totally right i tend to encourage novices

30:45

to capture just see when it's like

30:47

to see things but then you're totally right

30:49

they reached this point where they sort of amassed

30:53

a big steaming pile

30:55

of notes and are like than what do i do

30:57

with this and elsewhere the oh comes in

30:59

the second stage so the and

31:01

i hardly a framework for this called para

31:04

was still supply a are it's which

31:06

is projects areas resources archives

31:09

which is actually the single most kind of easy

31:11

to adopt and popular thing that

31:13

i have written about in my whole career

31:16

and it's a very simple but

31:18

also actionable way of organizing actually

31:20

any kind of information you can use it to organize your notes

31:23

out but also the the power of bet

31:25

is that it it's based on the fundamental

31:27

principle that applies everywhere so you can either

31:29

to organize your google drive the

31:32

documents folder and your computer even

31:34

project management apps i've seen people organize

31:36

their calendar this way their email like

31:39

if he ever wanted just one organising system

31:41

for your entire year digitalized that

31:43

is tara and what parent does his

31:45

hobby or in those things not people

31:48

usually do erroneous li by these

31:50

sues categories like

31:52

people can say that the notebook her folder

31:55

was like business or

31:57

like ideas or quotes

32:00

or you know i basically

32:03

organizing thing it's and these giant and buckets

32:05

that are so big that

32:08

think about in the future when you has just a little

32:10

bit of time in between meetings and you're going into a tree

32:12

something he'll have signed to search through potentially

32:14

does than standards of nodes and us

32:16

gigantic folder called like psychology

32:19

or something we do have some for his

32:21

to go into folder that's organized

32:23

for one single project and this

32:25

is the key and para which is the most important part

32:28

create one know book or

32:30

folder or tiger whatever it's called in

32:32

your app for each active projects

32:34

which is inherently limited by the with a no

32:37

human being really has more than five ten

32:39

me be taller sistine active

32:41

projects and even time and then we go

32:43

and see content from either your

32:45

inner thoughts or the outer world to

32:48

ask one question and i were to put it

32:50

which is why active project is

32:52

this most relevant him that's all

32:54

you can afford actually as as answer one

32:56

question for know and i think the most important

32:59

question is how am i going to put this into action

33:01

with it's most awesome he is

33:04

in a project got it okay

33:06

that's a great question thing is that we're not

33:08

asking that question were literally just oh

33:10

save that for later say that for later are you

33:13

know read it later type things as white

33:15

those kinds of you know you're scrolling through

33:17

social and he hits read it later

33:19

tended to my read it later app whatever that is insta

33:21

paper was one of the popular ones for a long time

33:24

pocket even but the thing is is that we end

33:26

up throwing so many things in there that

33:28

it's like will we don't end up doing anything with it

33:30

honestly because we didn't organize it as we

33:32

threw it in there and for example where

33:34

the things that we try to do with a recycling

33:37

in our closet upstairs with our kitchen

33:39

is we've got different buckets in that closet

33:41

and so you have to ask the question wait this

33:43

is an aluminum cans so which

33:45

bucket does this go when by having

33:47

quick simple easy choices you look at your

33:50

hand what is it throw it in it

33:52

goes into the appropriate bucket that way

33:54

the sorting part of things

33:56

is already done to a certain extent there's

33:59

still more to do right before we take it to the recycling

34:01

center but still that first step

34:03

it's a thinking in the right direction exactly

34:07

i love snow for his ex i'm from says organise

34:09

think because they're so concrete right the problem

34:11

with israel stasis also abstract else

34:14

the as like what would you d is sort of those move

34:16

things around the house solicitor

34:18

them as like little staging areas it

34:21

is my chino a something as simple as

34:23

your hamper are you don't know every

34:25

time you take a shirt off the nannies to be washed

34:28

trek out to the garage or whatever laundry

34:30

room until eight individually place

34:33

he saw in there whatever

34:35

reason be leery and assistance you

34:38

, that seating area called a hamper where you

34:40

can quickly collect make i when decision

34:42

which is is a stir you you're not for were in

34:44

the hamper been and a separate time he

34:46

sort of bass process see you unmasks

34:49

bring down or pick up this

34:51

for him for and with it all at once tude

34:54

washing machine and then you go through that you know that the

34:56

were full of washy it's the we do this all

34:58

over the house and all of our lives when it comes

35:00

to physical stuff but than individual wilson they were

35:02

like ah what are the cz areas

35:05

where are the things i'm trying to extract in one

35:07

place what are the workflows suddenly like

35:10

a complete free frogs a swell

35:12

and i love that metaphor to take it even one step further

35:15

is because then it's based on

35:17

your unique needs

35:19

wants perspectives accept her us

35:21

as to when and how long

35:24

you're gonna do the sorting of that

35:26

laundry if that's a it's a daily

35:28

i have all the kids just go and take the baskets

35:30

down and sort them real quick and it takes

35:32

them thirty seconds and they feel like it's not

35:34

a chore because it's so light

35:37

of a touch time commitment was

35:39

so that's your daily or is

35:41

it a weekly where to go once a week all

35:44

the baskets get taken down and you know

35:46

there's exceptions to this obviously where it's like

35:48

oh right now right need that certain that hamper

35:50

that in that thing that you know as you go and

35:52

run go do that you pull it out and find it's

35:54

much like a piece of information that you know you've got

35:57

somewhere hidden away captured but you

35:59

know you've got your week where it's like everything gets

36:01

gathered and it takes maybe a little bit longer but again

36:03

much better to do at minimum on a weekly

36:05

basis than say can you imagine doing

36:08

laundry on a monthly basis once a month

36:10

how big of an ornate a sword spray it's

36:12

a big daunting shore that's

36:15

not to say that there's not still

36:17

room for unique

36:19

monthly or even quarterly type

36:22

of hey let's just make sure everything's

36:24

in it's right place my brain is this cat spinning

36:26

here in terms of my first brain by

36:28

the way so great it's true that

36:30

think about it's is a couple stress is

36:32

very funny but as a whole strategy around

36:34

like laundry that you can do once

36:37

you doing this kind of staging ground that you

36:39

can scenes the frequency yea

36:42

i know when i am i getting ready go on a trip

36:44

as the days before the trip i don't

36:47

wanna wake up the morning is that i need ahead of they are poor

36:49

and have like three a backlog of three

36:51

loads of laundry or a because usually

36:53

something that i want to talk is in somewhere in there

36:56

so i'll start doing the laundry

36:58

more frequently when the trip is approaching on

37:00

the other hand when i am say writing is super

37:02

and of peace or when i was are very my books those

37:04

cycles would get along with

37:07

is fine as fine as decision i can make i

37:10

can proactively say you know i'm

37:12

going to display increase the best sizes

37:15

reduce the frequency of a particular

37:17

you know process to my life to

37:19

free up time now that can

37:21

be a trade off which i will expect which

37:23

isn't going to have to do ano were sitting some

37:26

more or times than i otherwise would or

37:28

start wearing the things in my wardrobe i

37:30

don't like so much you know like going down

37:32

to the rest of us state rarely gets to

37:35

use that the left side nasa conscious

37:37

tradeoff i've made obviously

37:39

this goes beyond just capturing

37:41

and organizing you mentioned code

37:44

the acronym code so it's flattering

37:46

organizing distilling and

37:48

expression are expressing distilling

37:51

at me the organizing peace with were kind of touching

37:53

on here where it's part least

37:55

the organizing is ideally

37:58

slightly addressed the capturing

38:00

the initial capturing but the distilling

38:03

i think is that more of a a weekly

38:05

or monthly process for you so

38:07

this is perfect say way it's interesting

38:09

because each in the four letters of the code

38:12

happen at a different students they

38:14

actually have different rules or principles

38:17

like was the state is one capture is

38:19

it is in the moments rights he can

38:21

be like have been of them on for me capture all

38:23

things that i thought about this month to their dot it's

38:26

a that is like one for the time

38:28

small batches right when it happens

38:31

organized now is different once

38:33

saved and someplace outside your head

38:35

you want me to get that to that right away i kinda do

38:37

it every week or two weeks albus

38:40

we go through my a runner inbox and just meet

38:42

one decision or you know that that we must in about

38:44

each one does work at as a skill and my per system

38:47

that is still is yet another prince distilling

38:49

taste work distilling is hard

38:52

you actually have to read you

38:54

know contents think about it which

38:56

is always the most the same thing to

38:58

do with enemy to see this

39:00

even more for taxing this point matters

39:02

this part dozen or so my sights the

39:04

say lighting in the annotating lighting that sort of

39:07

you know adding discover ability to that

39:09

notes which is what distilling what take

39:11

some real cognitive effort which is why it's

39:13

my advice is to not do it on any kind

39:15

of regular basis not do it daily

39:18

weekly monthly or yearly instead

39:20

to wheat we in so you

39:22

have a practical useless like

39:25

with the you captured you know half a dozen

39:27

notes in size folder really beautiful

39:29

piece of writing that you're going to be doing wait

39:31

until you're getting ready to be squeezed

39:34

setting yourself up to do that writing in

39:36

only then distill those six

39:39

sources in which by the way is

39:41

the perfect way to prepare for reading

39:43

with he went to load up that context since

39:45

your brain is so it's all tennis at your mental

39:47

fingertips and so basically where

39:49

the answer to whence it still is as

39:51

late as possible the only

39:54

when you're getting ready to create something

39:56

got it obviously then the the final

39:59

component of the final latter is he for

40:01

express how does that factor

40:03

oh express his even kind of a little more

40:06

it depends because it depends

40:08

completely on the kind of work the do like

40:11

and where does the kittens and which you need to express

40:14

if you're a journalist to as a deadline every

40:16

other week and then thus basically built

40:18

into your schedule your have much choice

40:20

other people have way more autonomy and

40:23

when they can express some people's everyday

40:26

you know they might need to add on our run

40:28

a training every day or come up with an

40:30

agenda for meeting almost everyday see

40:32

have to to the masses to the the specific

40:34

outcomes the results are trying to create the good

40:36

news is you can express

40:39

on any frequency that he wants

40:42

if only if you house

40:44

the previous three steps done if

40:46

you have this kind of repository of already

40:48

made ready to go building

40:51

blocks almost like lead us you imagine

40:53

you have to give a presentation in a few days

40:55

and you have to start with a blank spot

40:59

now care finances you just like okay for

41:01

slide ah it's what should

41:03

i say it's it's so terrifying

41:05

it's so hard instead what

41:07

if you could just go through a few of

41:09

your folders to feed your tags in

41:11

see him injury and other slides

41:14

other views in the past and ideas from other people

41:16

five presentations and saxon statistics

41:19

and stories statistics you could start that slide

41:21

presentation by just amassing

41:23

pulling together this kind of collection of preexisting

41:25

ideas and just kind of remix them in different

41:28

ways rather ways rather from nothing that's what a secular

41:30

brings about we all me that i want

41:32

a circle background to the para

41:34

acronym as well we talked a

41:36

little bit about project in areas and resources

41:39

and archives had of those fit

41:41

in for you in terms of

41:43

this code process yeah absolutely

41:45

so rumor that thera is primarily

41:48

most of boards are you please things

41:50

in a a certain place with and a project

41:52

with an area which is just

41:55

the projects beginning and started as a

41:57

a starting point and and and point series or more

41:59

like

42:00

hard to your life for you have to manage ongoingly

42:03

for your sinuses yourselves to do responsibilities

42:05

you have at work that say the first day

42:08

and tara are as for resources which

42:10

is things that are nine are part of projects or areas

42:12

for the just kind of sign interesting or potentially

42:14

useful and then archives is everything whole story

42:17

so this is like years so your digital filing

42:19

cabinet it's that the places in you

42:21

digital world where things go that

42:23

then what code is about code is or

42:25

action every sip of code is

42:28

moving and idea or a piece a contest

42:30

to completion so basically when

42:33

ascended to still by which is a letter

42:35

after oh for organized with the waliur

42:37

choosing what to distill is looking at terror

42:40

looking at this the for kind of mean buckets

42:42

where you had everything in in kind of diving

42:45

into each of the little categories

42:47

that are most relevant to the task ahead

42:49

and might be a project for the specific senior

42:51

working on but it could be an area or resource or even

42:53

archives of kind of like a measured para

42:56

as this wall this giant

42:58

bulletin board of all the things that you could

43:00

look at and such but then would you do

43:02

you walk up to the board walk into the wall

43:05

take two or three things off the wall cook them over

43:07

to the desk and started attacks on them as

43:09

different sickly para which is for storage and

43:11

code which is for to yes gotcha

43:14

okay yeah because i want to make sure that

43:16

even as metaphorical

43:19

or analogy driven as we've been

43:21

that there's a clear practical kind

43:23

of line here to again like

43:25

you just said storage as well as action

43:28

because if we can't act then what's

43:30

the point it's just against us throwing all

43:32

this stuff and evernote that will never touch exactly

43:35

well the thing is is that we've

43:38

barely scratched the surface i mean it may feel

43:40

like well we've covered the whole book no

43:42

we haven't honestly

43:45

you need to get the book this book this this is

43:47

one of the top productivity books that

43:49

i mean this is easily now in my top

43:51

ten people ask me a what

43:53

productivity bucks and i grab this isn't my top

43:56

ten in terms of if they don't already have it it's

43:58

definitely a suggested purchase and

44:00

read so but i'd love to get

44:02

you so much yeah you're welcome our i want to get

44:04

people connected to where

44:06

you're at your very one active

44:09

slash prolific on twitter that's a great

44:11

place to follow you a link to that cs and

44:13

then also to your site and to the course

44:15

as well as the books anywhere else you

44:18

know for all second bring things people couldn't

44:21

get a building a second brain not com which is separate

44:23

from our mean business website there

44:25

you can find not just the books and all the places

44:27

you can buy it and not just our course

44:30

which we teach a few times a year but all the

44:32

free concert the you tube shall we

44:34

do a lot of videos on second brain staff

44:36

the blog posts a podcasts

44:38

is really kind of a second brain universe

44:41

much of which is free to encourage people

44:43

to used to just get a taste of the

44:45

stuff and see if it's for them perfect

44:47

yeah there's a lot out there to dip your

44:49

toes into and get a taste

44:51

in a flavor for this and again like

44:53

we said earlier thirty days trial

44:56

and you'll see the benefits even

44:59

just from capturing were not even talking

45:01

about like organizing and and working

45:03

with the stuff but that unlocks it even more so

45:05

that like ten x is it and more you

45:08

build a second round to the one time relatively

45:10

short term project actually but

45:13

dinners working with your second brain which is a long

45:15

term area that there's no

45:17

limit to how much she skyn learn about it improves

45:19

it and leverage it overtime seriously

45:22

go grab a book is so so

45:24

so worth it i am committed to and

45:27

if you know revamping slashed pulling

45:29

together the pieces of this that i've done

45:31

in the past and the remnants of that

45:33

in the wake of it the aftermath of it

45:36

and making it work more so than ever

45:38

before because i didn't have been overloaded

45:40

i've been overwhelmed trying to hold

45:42

things in my brain and and i've learned over time

45:44

like i'm always better i always perform

45:47

better and feel better capturing

45:49

and then having that stuff ready to work with

45:51

the working with it's stuff is really the missing

45:53

piece more so for me personally

45:55

the confessor myself still feel like you're alone

45:58

in that if you've tried different aspects

46:00

of this before start again started

46:02

going with this absolutely i

46:05

couldn't agree more and thank you the ago

46:07

it's been great talking with you thank you so much for

46:09

being here and hopefully this is just the

46:11

first of many appearances on the show

46:13

moving forward i also they see

46:15

someone's eric's well

46:18

that's another podcast cross off you're listening to do

46:20

list i hope you enjoyed this episode with

46:22

the aga foretastes with loved

46:25

talking with him obviously

46:27

he will be back on the show at some point

46:29

before he ever rights the next book whatever

46:31

that is this is an important milestone

46:34

in terms of productivity because the second brain is

46:36

something that has been coming for a long time

46:38

in terms of getting stuff out of our head having

46:41

the digital tools to track and sync

46:43

it to organize it and

46:45

then to distill it and express

46:47

it using it in different ways

46:50

organizing archiving all

46:52

of those good things that need to happen

46:54

to get the stuff from

46:56

your work and your life off

46:59

your mind so that you can really live

47:01

you can stop thinking about that watch

47:03

stuff while you're not working

47:06

or stop worrying about life stuff when

47:08

you're trying to really live your life this

47:10

is the answer so make sure to pick

47:13

this book up i've linked up to it in the show notes

47:15

you can also click through on the shown us here

47:17

at beyond the to do list dotcom to

47:19

connect with thiago on twitter he's prolific

47:21

they're also don't forget to check

47:24

out short cast episodes of

47:26

beyond the to do list their about seven

47:28

to ten minutes they are quick

47:30

short bursts of productivity from

47:32

past episodes in the archive you can find

47:34

out more and try those for free over

47:37

at beyond the to do list dot com

47:39

slash linked list if

47:42

you loved this episode like i did consider

47:44

sharing it do that favor for me it

47:47

that share button in your podcast player app of

47:49

choice shirt with that person you know needs

47:51

to hear this episode thank you for

47:53

doing that thank you for sharing thank

47:55

you for listening and listening will see you

47:58

next episode