0:04

Welcome to Big Questions. This

0:06

is Cal Busman. I was

0:08

going to have a conversation

0:10

with artificial intelligence, John F. Kennedy

0:13

this week, to follow the one

0:15

I did with A.I. John Lennon.

0:17

But as you know, this podcast

0:20

follows the current of my life,

0:22

and I don't want it to

0:24

move on without stopping to marble

0:26

at the life of George Foreman.

0:29

George passed away last Friday, May

0:31

21st, at the age of 76,

0:33

but this is not really an

0:36

obituary. This is a way to

0:38

think about your future. Because George

0:40

pulled off one of the

0:43

rarest evolutions I'd ever seen.

0:45

And even if you observed

0:47

it from far, you might

0:49

not be conscious of the

0:51

depth of what he managed

0:54

to achieve. I

1:01

met him back in 2003

1:03

and remember being stopped cold

1:05

when he told me a

1:07

specific sentence. Changing your nature

1:09

is the hardest thing to do,

1:12

but I discovered you can be

1:14

who you choose to be. There are

1:16

habits we all have because of our

1:18

nature and nurture, and if there

1:21

is something you'd like to change

1:23

about yourself, you might want

1:25

to really lean in and

1:27

pay attention to this podcast.

1:29

George Foreman became heavyweight

1:31

champion of the world twice.

1:34

You often hear of boxers growing

1:36

up hungry. Well, listen to

1:38

a few descriptions he gave

1:40

me of his childhood. Quote,

1:43

we couldn't afford a TV,

1:45

but my aunt Leola let me watch

1:47

hers. I'd watched the Donna Reed show

1:50

and leave it to Beaver and wonder

1:52

what it would be like to have

1:54

my own bed. Shutting off a

1:56

reading lamp next to your bed

1:58

seemed... The height. of luxury. Often

2:01

there was no food to

2:03

send them to school with.

2:05

He told me when there

2:07

was no lunch to take

2:09

to school, I blew up

2:11

a brown paper sack to

2:13

make it look full. On

2:15

top of that, he didn't

2:17

know who he was. Sometimes

2:19

he told me, my older

2:22

brothers and sisters would tease

2:24

me. They'd call me Mohead.

2:26

I didn't know why. Sometimes

2:28

they'd say, you're not really

2:30

our brother. That would drive

2:32

me crazy. Even before I

2:34

outgrew them, they learned that

2:36

teasing wasn't worth the consequences.

2:38

It wasn't until he was

2:40

an adult that he learned

2:43

who he was. I found

2:45

out that my dad was

2:47

not my biological father. My

2:49

mom and J.D. Foreman had

2:51

broken up for a time,

2:53

and that's when I was

2:55

conceived. That's why my older

2:57

brothers called me Mohead. What

2:59

they were really saying was

3:01

Moorhead. My biological dad was

3:03

named Leroy Moorhead. That would

3:06

be why he would later

3:08

name all five of his

3:10

sons, George. He wanted them

3:12

to all know where they

3:14

came from. So as you

3:16

can see, it was a

3:18

great deal of confusion and

3:20

anger in his childhood. I

3:22

left school in 8th grade,

3:24

9th grade, something like that,

3:27

he told me, and that

3:29

put him out on the

3:31

street, not just any street.

3:33

I grew up in the

3:35

5th ward of Houston. The

3:37

bloody 5th, we called it.

3:39

Every weekend someone got killed.

3:41

George saw an ad for

3:43

the job corps and was

3:45

sent to Pleasanton California to

3:47

learn skills that could help

3:50

him make a living. It

3:52

was there he met a

3:54

boxing trainer named Doc Brous

3:56

who channeled his anger and

3:58

desired to make something of

4:00

himself. Foreman was 6-3, maybe

4:02

6-4 and 220 pounds, and

4:04

his power was immediately apparent

4:06

in the boxing gym. After

4:08

only 18... amateur fights. He

4:11

was fighting for the gold

4:13

medal in the 1968 Mexico

4:15

City Olympics. He knocked out

4:17

the Lithuanian Iona Shupulus, representing

4:19

the Soviet Union to win

4:21

the gold, but what most

4:23

people remembered was George in

4:25

the center of the ring

4:27

afterward waving a tiny American

4:29

flag. That might seem natural

4:31

and normal when I say

4:34

it now, except it was

4:36

in 1968. Nothing was natural

4:38

and normal in 1968. During

4:40

the three years that Foreman

4:42

was learning how to fight,

4:44

America was overwhelmed with racial

4:46

riots. In 1966, Cleveland, Chicago,

4:48

and San Francisco were in

4:50

flames after some cases of

4:52

police brutality. In what was

4:55

called the long, hot summer

4:57

of 1967, the upheaval hit

4:59

Newark. Detroit, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Milwaukee,

5:01

in 1968, after Dr. Martin

5:03

Luther King was assassinated, riots

5:05

broke out in Washington, Chicago,

5:07

Baltimore, Kansas City, over the

5:09

assassination of Dr. King and

5:11

the slow progress toward equality

5:13

and justice. That was all

5:15

the lead up to the

5:18

1968 Olympics. Many African-American athletes

5:20

talked about an Olympic boycott

5:22

to make a statement of

5:24

where the country was at,

5:26

but decided against it. Two

5:28

African-American track stars, Tommy Smith

5:30

and John Carlos, wanted to

5:32

make some kind of statement

5:34

on the world stage, and

5:36

after Smith and Carlos finished

5:39

first and third in the

5:41

200-yard dash, when they climbed

5:43

onto the victory podium to

5:45

get their medals, They each

5:47

held up an arm with

5:49

a black-gloved fist in the

5:51

black power salute. This stunned

5:53

many white Americans, and in

5:55

this landscape, it shocked many

5:57

black Americans to see foreman

6:00

waving a tiny American flag

6:02

in the ring after his

6:04

Olympic victory. At just about

6:06

any other time period, Foreman

6:08

would have been celebrated when

6:10

he returned home wearing his

6:12

Olympic gold medal, but he

6:14

was often looked down upon

6:16

by the black community for

6:18

waving that little American flag

6:20

while the black gloves were

6:23

up. My gold medal didn't

6:25

have much luster when I

6:27

got back to Houston, he

6:29

told me. It seemed like

6:31

every step he made to

6:33

get something good for himself

6:35

and be recognized for it

6:37

were turned against him. His

6:39

anger and his power only

6:41

grew when he entered the

6:44

ring as a professional. He

6:46

won his first 37 fights,

6:48

34 by knockout, and was

6:50

ready to challenge for the

6:52

heavyweight championship of the world

6:54

after Joe Frazier won the

6:56

first epic fight between Frazier

6:58

and Muhammad Ali. Now both

7:00

Fraser and Foreman came into

7:02

the ring and Jamaica undefeated.

7:04

This is January 1973, but

7:07

Foreman was four inches taller,

7:09

a little heavier, and Joe's

7:11

style of bobbing and weaving

7:13

and working himself inside bigger

7:15

men was the worst style

7:17

to have against Foreman. He

7:19

was just coming straight into

7:21

him. As Joe would tell

7:23

me later... Fighting George Foreman

7:25

was like being in the

7:28

middle of the street with

7:30

an 18-wheeler coming at you.

7:32

This is what it sounded

7:34

like if you were watching

7:36

it. Listen to Howard Cosell's

7:38

famous call that is remembered

7:40

to this day by anyone

7:42

who heard it. Six

7:45

times Foreman club Joe to

7:47

the canvas. One right upper

7:49

cut sent Joe into the

7:51

air like a tree stump

7:53

that had been uprooted. And

7:55

then crashing. the canvas. The

7:58

fight was stopped in the

8:00

second round. When I won

8:02

that title against Fraser, George

8:04

said, it was everything I'd

8:06

ever worked for. Month later,

8:08

Muhammad Ali got into the

8:10

ring with a muscular ex-marine

8:12

named Ken Norton, who shockingly

8:14

broke Ali's jaw early in

8:16

the fight and won a

8:18

decision. It was Norton who

8:20

got a chance to fight

8:22

Foreman's title. Listen to what

8:25

happened then in Caracas Venezuela.

8:27

He's legs are rubbery as

8:29

a left hand, goes on

8:31

the side of his head,

8:33

for right up a kind

8:35

of left jump, and all

8:37

vicious left, sends Norton crumbling

8:39

to the canvas for the

8:41

second time. Norton is in

8:43

Quaresville, he doesn't know where

8:45

he is. It's up to

8:47

five, six, I don't know

8:50

if Norton can make it,

8:52

it might be all over,

8:54

and it is all over.

8:56

I'm telling you. People were

8:58

scared for Ali's life after

9:00

he came back from that

9:02

broken jaw, and one rematches

9:04

against Norton and Frazier, and

9:06

then challenged Foreman for the

9:08

title. Fight was called the

9:10

Rumble in the Jungle and

9:12

staged in Kinshasa-Zayir, to give

9:15

you an idea of how

9:17

people saw Foreman listen to

9:19

what he told me about

9:21

what it was like, walking

9:23

through the airport to fly

9:25

off to Africa for that

9:27

fight. How the people looked

9:29

at him. They dropped their

9:31

heads. Fear. Nobody would give

9:33

me a straight-on look, George

9:35

told me. It was a

9:37

funny kind of admiration. There

9:39

were people too scared to

9:42

even ask for an autograph.

9:44

Foreman took his German shepherds

9:46

to the Congo. It only

9:48

added to his image. The

9:50

German shepherds had been used

9:52

by the colonizing Belgians to

9:54

instill fear and control the

9:56

locals, and Foreman and his

9:58

dogs were perceived symbolizing oppression

10:00

and intimidation. Meanwhile, the comic,

10:02

poetic Ali bonded with the

10:04

locals. Reflecting back on it

10:07

now, there were so many

10:09

ironies, he had Muhammad Ali

10:11

who had refused to be

10:13

drafted into the United States

10:15

military during the Vietnam War

10:17

and was stripped of his

10:19

title and not allowed to

10:21

fight for three and a

10:23

half years while he pushed

10:25

his case as a conscientious

10:27

objector to the Supreme Court.

10:29

It was fighting against another

10:32

black man who waved the

10:34

tiny American flag in the

10:36

center of the ring after

10:38

winning the Olympic gold. It

10:40

was scary to watch George

10:42

batter the heavy bag in

10:44

training. Ali refused to watch

10:46

or even hear the sound

10:48

of George's punches. Foreman's own

10:50

trainer, a great former champion

10:52

named Archie Moore, actually prayed

10:54

before the fight that George

10:56

wouldn't kill Ali. I was

10:59

watching as a college student

11:01

on a big screen in

11:03

an arena in St. Louis

11:05

and this was way beyond

11:07

a sporting event. I'm telling

11:09

you, thousands of people around

11:11

me were scared for Ali's

11:13

life. And people were cringing

11:15

not long after the opening

11:17

bell rang. Look like Ali

11:19

was about to get run

11:21

over by that 18-wheeler, just

11:24

like Frazier and Norton. Ali's

11:26

back was against the ropes

11:28

and Foreman just wailed away.

11:30

Dance, Ali, move! Everyone around

11:32

me was screaming. But it

11:34

didn't seem like he could.

11:36

He seemed trapped. There appeared

11:38

to be nothing Ali could

11:40

do to avoid the haymakers

11:42

coming at him. We just

11:44

couldn't hear Ali from behind

11:46

his upraised arms that took

11:49

the thudding blows. That all

11:51

you got, George? On the

11:53

giant scream, all we could

11:55

see was form infuriously throwing

11:57

more and harder. until we

11:59

started to notice the punches

12:01

losing their steam. Rounds fired.

12:03

Five and six, going wide,

12:05

slowing down. Could it be?

12:07

Could it be? Was Foreman

12:09

running out of gas? And

12:11

then we could hear the

12:13

Africans chanting, Ali, Boomai, Ali,

12:16

Boomai, Ali, Boomai, Ali, Kill

12:18

him! Yes, Four minutes punched

12:20

himself out. In the eighth

12:22

round, one perfectly timed right

12:24

hand to the jaw sent

12:26

the exhausted foreman stumbling to

12:28

the canvas where he was

12:30

stunningly counted out. Vans who

12:32

didn't know each other, where

12:34

I watched this, were jumping

12:36

up and down and hugging

12:38

each other. Some were even

12:41

crying. Ali would call his

12:43

masterful strategy. The Ropidope. Imagine

12:45

losing everything that matters to

12:47

you in ten seconds, Foreman

12:49

would tell me years later.

12:51

And it was worse than

12:53

that. The day after I

12:55

lost Wally, he said, people

12:57

came by and put a

12:59

hand on my shoulder and

13:01

said, it's okay, George, you'll

13:03

have another chance. That was

13:06

pity, from being feared to

13:08

being pity. Brother, he said,

13:10

that's a long fall. Everything

13:12

was being peeled away. He'd

13:14

gone from being heavyweight champion

13:16

of the world to being

13:18

seen before the world as

13:20

a dope. His aura of

13:22

invincibility had been stripped. I'll

13:24

tell you how low a

13:26

man can go, George told

13:28

me. There's a BB King

13:30

song that goes. Nobody loves

13:33

me but my mother and

13:35

she could be jiving too.

13:37

George tried to start up

13:39

a comeback by fighting five

13:41

men in one day as

13:43

an exhibition, but fighters whom

13:45

he'd previously knocked out and

13:47

around went the full three

13:49

with him. He took on

13:51

a clever boxer named Jimmy

13:53

Young in the heat of

13:55

Puerto Rico and couldn't land

13:58

a big blow and then...

14:00

in the fight as he

14:02

melted in the heat. The

14:27

knockdown gave Jimmy Young a unanimous

14:29

decision, but it was after the

14:31

fight when the most transformational moment

14:33

occurred. Dehydrated and maybe even suffering

14:36

from a heat stroke, George claimed

14:38

that God spoke to him. And

14:40

he retired from the ring to

14:42

follow God's call to preach. He

14:45

became an ordained minister in Texas.

14:47

He did not fight for ten

14:49

years. Now, remember that quote I

14:52

spoke about at the top of

14:54

the episode? George saying, changing your

14:56

nature is the hardest thing to

14:58

do. But I discovered that you

15:01

can be who you choose to

15:03

be. George loved to give sermons.

15:05

Preaching is the most original thing

15:07

I've ever done. He said, there's

15:10

nothing familiar about it. You have

15:12

to be brave. He had a

15:14

great talent for it. I remember

15:17

asking him what it was like

15:19

when his mother had passed away.

15:21

Listen to how his answer combines

15:23

what is a mystery to all

15:26

of us with a corresponding image

15:28

that we can all grasp and

15:30

understand. Losing your mother, he told

15:32

me, is the most mysterious lostness.

15:35

You know how the astronauts walk

15:37

in space attached to the spacecraft

15:39

by a line? The moment you

15:41

find out your mother has died,

15:44

you feel like someone slipped the

15:46

line off the craft. You're just

15:48

floating away. floating, floating, floating. I

15:51

remember my daughter called and said,

15:53

don't you worry, I'm on my

15:55

way. All of a sudden, the

15:57

line snagged and I was anchored

16:00

again. During the time George preached

16:02

out of a church, he was

16:04

embezzled out of the fortune he'd

16:06

accumulated in his boxing career. The

16:09

power in the boxing gym he

16:11

built in Texas was shut off,

16:13

and he had to start all

16:16

over financially at the age of

16:18

38. He was way overweight, but

16:20

he began to train for a

16:22

comeback as a different person. He

16:25

talked about the delight of eating

16:27

pizza and people began to smile

16:29

and laugh at this old bald

16:31

guy chomping on cheeseburgers while making

16:34

a comeback. For the guys that

16:36

didn't learn how to eat, we

16:38

got an eating teacher. Well, John

16:41

Madden, like myself, we saw All

16:43

America go down. All this to

16:45

tooty-footy pasta and salads, yucky yoke

16:47

stuff like this. It's good for

16:50

garnishing, that's all. But for breakfast,

16:52

a real athlete, a real American

16:54

needs something to really bite into

16:56

pizza. Mm-hmm. Then they get to

16:59

grab a hamburger. About a nice

17:01

time. And don't be a friend.

17:03

Hold this thing with two or

17:05

three hands. Two hands. And bite.

17:09

John Madden knows, like I know

17:11

that this is a wonderful world

17:14

we live in. Hey, George Foreman

17:16

is perfect. I knew if we

17:18

went out to find the perfect

17:20

eating teacher, we'd find him. We'll

17:23

continue from Minnesota in just a

17:25

moment. Alarmen need taters. Slowly, he

17:27

took the weight off while he

17:29

beat fighters who weren't very good

17:31

or who were good, but weighed

17:34

much less than him. George's power

17:36

never left him, and he... He

17:38

won 24 straight fights. And he

17:40

was championing the George Foreman Grill

17:43

and demonstrating to everyone how to

17:45

make luscious cheeseburgers. At the age

17:47

of 42, George got a crack

17:49

at a bander holly field and

17:51

the heavyweight championship. Hollywood was 28

17:54

and pretty near the prime of

17:56

his career. No judge gave George

17:58

more than a few rounds, but

18:00

anyone who saw the fight had

18:03

to admire what George was able

18:05

to accomplish, just getting himself back

18:07

in the ring against the world

18:09

champion, and he walked away with

18:11

a guaranteed 12.5 million bucks plus

18:14

pay-per-view residuals that could have set

18:16

him up for life. But George

18:18

didn't stop there. He kept at

18:20

it. And after Holyfield was beaten

18:23

by an undefeated sharpshooter named Michael

18:25

Moore, George got another chance. Now,

18:27

George was 45. 45 years old,

18:29

Moore was 26. A South Pole

18:31

with great movement and a lance

18:34

for a right jab. He had

18:36

the ideal style. Stay away from

18:38

George and just jab his head

18:40

his head off his head off.

18:43

As Foreman entered the ring, I

18:45

noticed something that made my mouth

18:47

open. He was wearing the same

18:49

red trunks he wore in the

18:51

ring for the rumble in the

18:54

jungle against Ali. It was as

18:56

if he was saying, I've learned

18:58

my lesson. For nine rounds, Mora

19:00

moved around Foreman and used his

19:03

jab to pup up George's head

19:05

and really swell one of his

19:07

eyes. It's kind of hard to

19:09

watch. But... George kept pressing, and

19:11

he had conserved his energy, even

19:14

though he was exhausted. And then,

19:16

in round 10, he distracted Moore

19:18

with a jab, and behind it

19:20

came a right hand from only

19:23

inches away, straight in, landed flush

19:25

on Moore's jaw, and Moore went

19:27

down and out like a houselight

19:29

in a power-light in a house-light

19:31

in a house-light in a power-light

19:34

in a power-light in a power-light

19:36

in a power-light in a power-light

19:38

in a power-light in a power-light

19:40

in a power-light in a power-light

19:43

in a power-light in a power-light

19:45

in a power-light in a power-light

19:47

in a power shortage-light in a

19:49

power shortage-light in a power shortage-light

19:51

in a power shortage of power

19:54

shortage of power shortage in a

19:56

power shortage-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Down, go! George

20:14

Foreman was a heavyweight champion

20:16

at 45 years of age.

20:18

Not long after that, he

20:20

would sell his rights to

20:23

the George Foreman grill for

20:25

$138 million. Many times in

20:27

life, and I was feeling

20:30

behind and needed to pull

20:32

something off, I would watch

20:34

a replay of that fight

20:36

for inspiration. Never failed me.

20:39

When I met George and

20:41

reached out to shake his

20:43

hand, he told me, I

20:45

dread handshakes. I've got some

20:47

problems with my hands and

20:49

everywhere I go, people want

20:51

to impress me with their

20:53

grip. To make it worse,

20:56

now women are coming up

20:58

with that firm shake. So

21:00

I'll say, give me five.

21:02

If a boy wants a

21:04

handshake, I'll give him a

21:06

hug. Very few athletes and

21:08

people beat Father Time. George

21:10

did. He did that in

21:12

war. He made one of

21:14

the most difficult transitions possible.

21:16

He changed his character in

21:18

order to beat father time.

21:20

The hungry kid who grew

21:22

up blowing into a paper

21:24

bag to make little kids

21:26

at school think he had

21:28

food inside would ultimately make

21:30

America love him over their

21:32

love of cheeseburgers. sell his

21:34

grill for 138 million bucks.

21:36

The man who silently walked

21:38

past crowds and airports who

21:40

feared him early in his

21:42

career ended up giving sermons

21:44

on Sundays and hugging people

21:46

who wanted to shake his

21:48

hand. Father Time took him

21:50

last week, but he's still

21:52

here with us in my

21:54

memory. And if

21:56

you took in

21:58

the message

22:00

of this podcast

22:02

this understand what he

22:05

was able to do,

22:07

then you to do, then try

22:09

to replace something in your

22:11

character that you'd like

22:13

to remove you'd like to remove. And George's

22:16

remain. remain.