0:00

I find that the people who

0:02

write and create the tracks

0:04

think they are God and the

0:06

people who write the melodies

0:08

and lyrics are the second class

0:10

citizens who are actually writing

0:12

the song and they give the

0:14

track to 20 people and

0:16

then they decide who they like,

0:18

what they like. I don't

0:20

need to do that. Yeah. To

0:23

me that makes me insane.

0:25

The top liner is so second

0:27

class in that scenario. I

0:29

mean the melody and the lyric are

0:31

the song. Welcome to Bobby

0:33

Osinski's Inner Circle. I'm Bobby Osinski

0:35

and this is a show all about

0:37

music, music production and the music business. I

0:40

guess today is Emmy winning producer, songwriter

0:42

and publisher Michelle Weiss -Maslin. Michelle has had

0:44

numerous hit songs and cuts all over

0:46

the world as well as over 6

0:48

,000 music placements. Can you imagine that?

0:50

Winning an Emmy for her work on

0:52

CBS TV show Guiding Light. She's been

0:54

quite successful in both television and films

0:56

with such a long credit list that

0:58

it's really hard to pick just a

1:00

few. It's no surprise that her music

1:02

can be heard on radio and television

1:04

every single day, seven days a week,

1:06

365 days a year. What

1:09

I find even more amazing is that Michelle's had

1:11

the privilege to collaborate on a song with

1:13

the great Bob Dylan. During the interview

1:15

we spoke about how she started as an

1:17

avant -garde artist in Los Angeles. Being

1:19

heartbroken over Madonna comparison, why

1:22

she won't write the previously produced tracks,

1:24

why instrumental sections of a song

1:26

don't work for songwriter pitches and much

1:28

more. I spoke with Michelle via

1:30

Zoom from a home in Los Angeles. Let's

1:33

start here. You

1:36

played in bands before you

1:38

became the songwriter that

1:40

you are, the songwriter

1:42

and the publisher and

1:44

just the overall dynamo

1:47

that you are today. Take

1:49

me back to when you're playing in bands. Yes,

1:51

I was playing in bands that started in

1:53

high school like most of us do,

1:55

right? You know, I was in love with

1:57

the making music and I grabbed some

1:59

friends. in school who were amazing musicians

2:01

and we put a band together

2:04

and then I had a next-door

2:06

neighbor who owned some clubs and

2:08

this was in New York City

2:10

and that was convenient right he

2:12

also owned Rockaway's Playland but he

2:14

was kind of a high roller

2:16

but at any rate he owned

2:18

some small clubs so we got

2:20

some gigs and that's how he

2:23

started. And you kept playing though that

2:25

was your thing for a long time

2:27

right? Yes. So then when I

2:29

went to college where I didn't

2:31

really go, I joined some bands

2:34

and went on the road and

2:36

played anywhere I could and

2:38

everywhere I could and then

2:40

I moved to Los Angeles

2:42

and put together my own band

2:45

and that's when I started

2:47

doing original music only and

2:49

and doing that. So it

2:52

was very much an artist,

2:54

very much on the artist

2:56

path. writing songs for myself,

2:58

performing and gagging and hiring

3:01

musicians day in and day

3:03

out, right? Because the bass

3:06

player and the drummer always

3:08

quit. So. Yeah, funny how that

3:10

works. Yeah, that's the thing with

3:12

bands. Yeah, they're very unreliable.

3:15

They don't show up. They're not

3:17

on time. I used to pay

3:19

them and feed them even, you

3:21

know, hoping that they would. stay but

3:23

you know if they got a better

3:25

gig they were gone. Yeah that's the

3:28

way that worked. You know I was

3:30

the same way when I went to

3:32

college I didn't spend a lot of

3:34

time there because I was in the

3:36

road all the time and there were

3:38

tests I paid people to actually take

3:41

tests for me and things like that

3:43

you can give me with that back

3:45

then but anyway I didn't do that

3:47

but I should have. Smart or you're

3:49

smart smart guys. See right before we came

3:51

on I was telling you that I thought

3:53

you were such a smart guy and now

3:55

you're you're convincing me some more. But

3:57

I'm going to hear about your smartness.

3:59

in a little bit. So tell

4:01

me about when you first got

4:04

to LA and you started doing

4:06

your own thing and it was

4:08

pretty avant-garde, right? Yes, thank you

4:10

for noticing and that yes, so

4:12

it was very avant-garde. It was

4:15

kind of in those days, Cape

4:17

Bush, but in today's maybe York,

4:20

it was very weird. I did

4:22

performance art. I had films and

4:24

slide shows and actors and I

4:27

had a scene where someone was

4:29

on a stretcher, polishing their nails

4:31

and reading poetry and like all

4:34

kinds of, you know, I guess,

4:36

considered bizarre stuff. And I wrote...

4:39

to accompany this, and I had

4:41

someone who made the films and

4:43

the videos to go with it,

4:45

and it was this whole performance

4:47

art piece. I bet that record

4:49

labels didn't fall over themselves, trying

4:51

to sign that, right? Because I'm

4:53

sure they didn't know what to

4:55

do with it. Exactly, so I

4:58

was super good at networking.

5:00

And I went to everything and this

5:02

is, you know, before there was

5:04

internet, I mean, I had to

5:06

go to everything. And I made

5:08

friends with so many A&R guys

5:10

who were so excited to come

5:13

to my show and then sat

5:15

there with their mouths open, right?

5:17

Had no idea what to do

5:19

with it. Exactly, like, what do

5:21

we do with this? So yeah,

5:23

that was, but you know, I

5:26

thought I was touching people

5:28

and I realized, no. I

5:30

wasn't touching people that,

5:32

you know, people like Madonna

5:34

touched people. I realized

5:37

that I was touching like

5:39

two people and I really

5:41

wanted my music to be

5:44

passionate and reaching out

5:46

to people and having them

5:48

to feel it. So that was

5:51

an interesting lesson. And

5:53

speaking of Madonna,

5:55

so there was the Robert

5:58

Hilburn. Article Compar- you

6:00

to Madonna. Yes. And

6:02

that was heartbreaking for me,

6:04

because I thought I

6:06

was such a high level

6:08

art person, creating

6:10

art. And then there was

6:12

a review in the LA Times

6:14

about my show. I was

6:16

sick that performance. I have

6:18

terrible bronchitis, and you'll hear

6:20

it during this interview that

6:23

so often I just get

6:25

very congested. And so

6:27

I was sick. And

6:29

when I was performing,

6:31

Chris Hilberg, he

6:33

compared the unevenness of

6:36

my voice to Madonna. And

6:39

I cried for days and days

6:41

and days. And everybody

6:43

was writing me saying, Oh

6:45

my God, they compared you

6:47

to Madonna. Oh my God.

6:50

That is so incredible. Congratulations.

6:52

Congratulations. Right.

6:55

I mean, and I was so confused

6:57

because here this was

6:59

not good to me, but

7:01

to everyone else in the

7:04

community in LA that all

7:06

these A &R people and

7:08

publishers and managers that I

7:10

knew were excited for me.

7:12

So that was an interesting

7:16

learning, light bulb moment, you

7:19

know? Yeah, I bet.

7:21

Did that prompt you into

7:23

thinking more about being

7:26

a professional songwriter, writing

7:29

for other people or sync? No,

7:32

not yet. No, so this was way

7:34

early, not yet. But what this

7:36

did make me think was maybe I

7:38

should write some pop songs. Maybe

7:41

I should write some songs

7:43

that were a little

7:45

more inside. But

7:48

I didn't

7:50

ever contemplate being

7:52

a professional songwriter. I didn't even

7:54

know what that was. To be

7:56

honest with you, like I knew

7:58

that there were people who wrote

8:00

musicals. theater because I loved that and

8:02

I had a close friend

8:04

who had a publishing deal

8:06

and wrote so she was

8:08

a lyricist and I really

8:10

honestly didn't know what she

8:12

did or that she didn't like

8:15

I just knew that I wrote

8:17

the songs that I performed and

8:19

it wasn't until I had a

8:21

friend who was making a movie

8:23

who needed songs that I

8:25

wrote something that wasn't for

8:28

me and that was years

8:30

later. So then I kind of

8:32

became a professional songwriter

8:35

and a producer kind

8:37

of overnight, you know, by

8:39

getting song in this movie and

8:41

then getting a song in

8:44

another movie and then I

8:46

was mentored by Nile Rogers

8:48

and I got to, yeah, I

8:50

know, all these things fell into my

8:52

lap and I just said yes, like

8:55

I was, you know, then he

8:57

set me up with some young...

8:59

songwriter and we wrote a song

9:01

that became a big hit and

9:04

then I got a publishing

9:06

deal which I knew nothing

9:08

about and didn't understand

9:10

anything but they paid me

9:12

and then I became like basically

9:15

a staff writer what one

9:17

would call a staff writer

9:19

and again I had no

9:21

clue. I really didn't, I mean

9:23

I wrote weird artsy songs and

9:26

now all of a sudden. I

9:28

became this writer and producer

9:30

of pop music. The interesting

9:33

thing that I've always found

9:35

is that songwriters are overlooked

9:37

for their production skills, but

9:40

yet there's some of the best

9:42

producers out there because

9:44

they're producing their own stuff all

9:46

the time. Just if you're producing

9:49

demos, they have to be really

9:51

good. So the demos are, you

9:54

know, like finished records. I mean there's

9:56

no such things that demo anymore but once upon a time

9:58

you know we had to do them all with But

10:00

professional songwriters were a

10:02

notch above everybody else

10:04

in production, I always thought.

10:06

I totally agree with you, and

10:09

I always say, like, so my

10:11

catalog spans from 1979 or basically

10:13

1980 to present. So even in

10:16

1980, I was making master quality

10:18

recording. So my demos, I placed

10:20

them now in sync. I mean

10:23

my demos always sounded amazing.

10:25

I really didn't understand they

10:28

didn't have to or they

10:30

shouldn't or anything. I just

10:32

learned how to do it like

10:35

you're saying on the job,

10:37

doing it, listening, paying attention,

10:40

working with amazing people, amazing

10:42

musicians because in those days

10:45

of course we we didn't

10:47

have a lot of technology.

10:49

We had real musicians all

10:52

the time and learning from

10:54

them and also realizing,

10:56

Bobby, that my passion

10:59

is producing. So I write

11:01

songs, I make a

11:03

living writing songs, but

11:05

my passion is producing

11:07

those songs more than writing

11:10

those songs. So I like

11:12

to write them, but then

11:14

I love to produce them.

11:16

I love arranging the instruments and

11:18

getting the players and working

11:21

now with the technology and

11:23

engineers and it's fantastic and

11:25

I'm so glad that I

11:27

learned how to do it

11:30

from the beginning. Yes, I'm

11:32

so glad. And it's sad that

11:34

more women don't do it

11:36

either because the deficit of

11:39

female producers is incredible and

11:41

I just don't think they

11:43

really want to do it.

11:45

Because I don't know a lot

11:47

of females who produce. I know lots

11:49

of female songwriters Yeah, well

11:52

again, it's an extra level

11:54

of responsibility that not

11:56

everybody wants or can

11:58

do for that matter because

12:00

there's a skill to arranging

12:02

orchestration and not everybody can

12:04

think like that. They don't

12:07

have to either. Like it's

12:09

not, you know, requisite to

12:11

being a songwriter at all.

12:13

I don't think that you

12:15

have to. I just happen

12:17

and you do too, that

12:19

happen to love it and

12:21

thrive being in the

12:23

studio paying attention and

12:25

arranging. Yeah. So you

12:27

came up using real players

12:29

and knowing what it was like

12:32

to track with real people.

12:34

When technology came along, drum machine

12:36

synthesizer stuff like that, did

12:38

you embrace it right away? Yes.

12:41

I just morphed. Yes.

12:44

I would say

12:46

we used it as best we could

12:48

to try and see what will this do.

12:51

How can we do this?

12:53

My first MIDI keyboard

12:55

was a Juno 106 and

12:57

it was so fun, right?

13:00

So I did. I worked

13:02

with people who were

13:04

very tech savvy. I myself

13:06

am not tech savvy

13:08

and never have been and

13:10

struggle a bit with

13:12

tech, but I worked with

13:14

people who were and we

13:16

were able to execute, of

13:18

course, remember in those days like

13:21

Dr. Rhythm. I mean, the

13:23

drum machines were so bad. I

13:25

mean, the synthesizers weren't awful

13:27

and the Juno 106 had some

13:29

sounds. Now people offer me all

13:31

kinds of money for it.

13:33

They want that keyboard because the

13:35

sounds are cool and interesting,

13:37

but the drums not good. I

13:40

mean, that was that beginning

13:42

of drum machines not good. But

13:44

we use them. Michelle,

13:47

has

13:50

your method of writing changed

13:52

through the years, especially with

13:55

technology now? Do

13:57

you write differently? No. No,

14:00

so I am pretty good

14:02

at morphing. So I can

14:04

write a lyric first, I

14:06

can write the music first,

14:08

the melody first, the, I

14:10

can write both at the

14:12

same time, I can, yeah,

14:14

so not really. I just

14:16

morph into the situation. I

14:18

like to co-write when I

14:20

write alone. Also sometimes I

14:22

had this one piece it

14:25

and I play very badly

14:27

I'm not a great player

14:29

I play well enough to

14:31

write but I had this

14:33

guitar piece this guitar part

14:35

for years and years and

14:37

years Finally I had a

14:39

melody but I had absolutely

14:41

no lyric it took me

14:43

about six years till I

14:45

got on one production music

14:47

gig I thought Ah, maybe

14:49

this one would, you know.

14:51

So I, I, it hasn't

14:53

changed, but what I, what

14:55

I don't love to do

14:57

is write to tracks, other

15:00

people's pre-existing tracks. I have

15:02

done it. I have done

15:04

it. But I've pretty much

15:06

eliminated it since the year

15:08

2000. I don't do it

15:10

at all. You find it

15:12

limiting? Do you? Yeah. Well,

15:14

well. It's the norm now

15:16

to do for a lot

15:18

of popular music anyway. It's

15:20

it's the norm But yeah,

15:22

I mean, I think it's

15:24

better to be in a

15:26

room with somebody and throw

15:28

ideas back and forth Yes,

15:30

correct and also I find

15:33

though maybe politically incorrect I

15:35

find that the people who

15:37

write and create the tracks

15:39

Think they are God And

15:41

the people who write the

15:43

melodies and lyrics are the

15:45

second class citizens who are

15:47

actually writing the song. And

15:49

they give the track to

15:51

20 people, and then they

15:53

decide who they like, what

15:55

they like. And I just

15:57

eliminate that. I just don't

15:59

go there, do that. I

16:01

don't need to do that,

16:03

because I'm a producer and

16:05

I can produce the song

16:08

up. I don't need somebody's

16:10

track. I also don't like

16:12

that term top line. Mm. Yeah. In

16:14

me, that makes me insane. The

16:16

top liner is so second class

16:18

in that scenario to me. I

16:21

mean, the melody in the lyric

16:23

are the song. Yes, if one

16:25

writes the track first, then they

16:27

are a songwriter. Right, not if

16:29

the track comes later, but if

16:31

the track comes first. Okay, I

16:34

get that. But to call the

16:36

person who wrote the actual melody

16:38

and lyric, a top liner and

16:40

the top line, that's the

16:42

song. So that's what you

16:44

copyright, the melody and lyric. So

16:47

that whole top line thing makes

16:49

me crazy. So, you know, but it's

16:51

a generational thing like you say,

16:53

you know. Yeah, it is. And it's

16:56

funny because it never. occurred to

16:58

me that that was the case

17:00

until you just mentioned it but

17:02

then it was very very clear

17:04

and apparent that oh yeah you

17:06

know you're right that is that's

17:08

not right that's not the way

17:10

it's supposed to work especially since

17:12

as you say what gets copy

17:15

written is the the melody and

17:17

lyrics it's it's not the track

17:19

Right, exactly. So it makes me, that,

17:21

so, but you know, it's good for

17:23

me. I just, I just stopped.

17:25

So I haven't done that in now

17:27

almost 25 years. I just don't. People

17:30

offer me trucks all the time and

17:32

so no, that's okay. Yeah. So you

17:34

like to write with other people

17:36

and there are some people that

17:38

are really good at that. Obviously

17:40

you are. other people that just

17:42

can't get their arms around it.

17:44

You're absolutely correct. Now I write

17:46

with, I have written in my

17:49

career with hundreds of people.

17:51

At this stage right now, I

17:53

only write with basically two people.

17:56

Separately, not together. I

17:58

have two main collaborators. One,

18:00

I've had my entire

18:02

career since when I

18:04

was doing the weird

18:06

artsy stuff in 1980.

18:09

Same, same collaborator and

18:11

a different collaborator. I've

18:13

really narrowed my field

18:15

and I write with

18:17

major label artists, so

18:19

sometimes they're part of

18:22

the equation. But I

18:24

rarely write with additional

18:26

people anymore. I like

18:28

my small... my world smaller

18:31

now. But I have written

18:33

with famous people and new

18:35

people and all kinds. Okay,

18:38

so song forms have

18:40

changed through the years,

18:42

especially since electronics are

18:45

so important these days,

18:48

samples, loops, things like that,

18:50

where now it's rare that

18:52

you have a bridge. Basically,

18:54

I always have a bridge. I

18:57

don't agree. I always have a

18:59

bridge. And in the students that

19:01

I have because I mentor like

19:04

you do and have students and

19:06

I always enforce there's a bridge.

19:08

I don't think the song is

19:10

done without a bridge. I need

19:12

a bridge. And when I listen

19:14

to modern songs and on the

19:17

radio, I hear bridges all the

19:19

time. So I actually do like

19:21

a bridge. Yeah, I do too. because it's

19:23

going to be the peak of the song. And

19:25

as a matter of fact, it should

19:27

be sometimes. But it's interesting

19:29

because for a long time, instead

19:31

of a bridge as we would know

19:34

it with different changes, what would happen

19:36

would be another verse or a chorus

19:38

with the breakdown almost, which can work.

19:40

It does work, but it's not really

19:43

good. I'm cool with no changes. I

19:45

mean, the song can have one chord

19:47

or two chords and still have a

19:49

different melody. Yeah, so there's a

19:51

lot of that. I do agree

19:53

with you. There's a lot of

19:56

songs with very few chords.

19:58

One, hip-hop, one, two. You

20:00

know, yeah,

20:02

so but I do

20:04

yeah, I like you. I

20:06

like a bridge. It's it's

20:08

happy I do think now

20:10

the song songs are short

20:12

Although I I've always written

20:15

some short some short songs

20:17

my nick Carter hit In

20:19

2002 was only two minutes

20:21

and like 23 seconds something

20:23

like that and that's good

20:25

because they get played more

20:27

Yeah, right, right and they

20:29

get synced more because it's

20:32

music supervisors like it And

20:34

I mean now I avoid

20:36

a lot of intro I

20:38

avoid any kind of fade at

20:40

the end. I mean, that's

20:42

like the kiss of death I

20:44

avoid any kind of instrumental

20:47

section in the vocal song unless

20:49

it's edm and then even

20:51

then I throw in vocal ease

20:53

Ooze ahs. Yeah something because

20:55

nobody has any attention span and

20:57

when there's no vocal They

20:59

don't hear it. They're done So

21:01

so that's interesting, right? Yeah

21:03

solos and drum solos and guitar

21:06

solos and You know, what

21:08

was interesting about intros and outros? They

21:11

were made for radio so the dj

21:13

could talk over them And

21:16

now radio is

21:18

not important anymore. So

21:20

they're not needed If you look

21:22

at it like that Yeah, sure. That's

21:24

that that's that's a truth And also

21:26

when I pitch songs because of

21:29

course I pitch my own songs and

21:31

I sit there in meetings Anytime

21:33

they come to any instrumental session. They

21:35

turn they would turn the song

21:37

off Yeah, they'd make a note.

21:39

This is really cool. What else can

21:41

we listen to? But they'd never hear the

21:43

rest of the song and I still

21:45

see that today That they they

21:48

they don't keep it doesn't keep

21:50

their attention if there's no vocal

21:52

and if there's a guitar solo

21:54

forget it they're finished so Yeah,

21:56

I think I I

21:58

tell on my friends and

22:00

students and everybody don't have an

22:02

instrumental section. You know, make an

22:04

instrumental version of your song, run

22:06

an instrumental track, but don't put

22:08

in an instrumental version, you know,

22:10

especially if you want them to

22:12

hear the rest of the song.

22:15

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22:17

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22:19

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22:34

now. Okay, let's talk some

22:36

production stuff here, because I

22:38

know you like this, and

22:40

so do I. What I've

22:42

found interesting in modern music

22:44

is the amount of ear

22:46

candy. And I agree that

22:48

you need a certain amount

22:50

to keep the interest up,

22:52

even if it's subconscious. But

22:54

it's gotten to the point

22:56

where there's never ever a

22:58

blank place in the song.

23:00

It's filled up with something.

23:02

There's some effect that's coming

23:04

in almost everywhere, except maybe

23:06

the first verse you might

23:08

have, you know, first eight

23:10

bars or something that are

23:12

kind of bare. After that,

23:14

it's just filled up and

23:16

more and more and more

23:18

tracks on top of one

23:20

another. So in fact, we're

23:22

getting a simple song, becomes

23:24

really complex track-wise because there's

23:26

so much going on. Is

23:28

that something that you do?

23:30

Or do you care about?

23:32

Does it matter to you?

23:34

the track serves the song,

23:36

the melody, the lyric, the

23:38

singer. And I have a

23:40

lot of breakdowns in my

23:42

songs. Sometimes the top of

23:44

the second verse, I'll break

23:46

down completely to just a

23:48

vocal, a cappella. Sometimes there

23:50

is a breakdown section later

23:52

on in the song that's

23:54

only a cappello or maybe

23:56

a vocal and drum or

23:58

that kind of thing. I

24:00

actually like peaks and valleys

24:03

and like the song to breathe

24:05

and move and grow and

24:07

perhaps be quiet in a

24:10

section. I avoid instruments that

24:12

step on top of each other,

24:14

right? I don't like that. I

24:17

don't like when the instruments

24:19

step on the vocal. If they're

24:21

in the same range as

24:23

the vocal, that doesn't make

24:26

me happy. I try not

24:28

to do that. pay attention

24:30

to that. So yes, often

24:32

the first verse is more sparse,

24:34

but I then again break down

24:36

other parts of the song

24:39

so that it has momentum

24:41

and that's what I love. I

24:43

love that. I don't like the

24:45

songs to be completely linear and

24:48

like you're saying I do not

24:50

like a train wreck. where you

24:52

can't hear the instruments. Like, I

24:55

want to hear what the parts

24:57

are, because of course we work

24:59

so hard arranging those parts, and

25:01

they mean so much to us.

25:03

And I want to be able

25:05

to have my ears isolate those

25:07

parts. Now, it's true that people

25:09

who are not as musical

25:12

as we are might not

25:14

hear those individual parts. They're

25:16

listening to the melody in

25:18

the lyric. Right, and then

25:20

the rest is supporting it. But

25:22

when the musicians listen, I like

25:25

them to hear the parts to

25:27

be able to isolate what, yeah,

25:29

so I don't like what you're saying

25:31

when there's just layers and layers

25:33

and layers and someone brought me

25:36

a song like that the other

25:38

day to critique and it was

25:40

like that where it was just

25:42

a train wreck of, I mean,

25:44

you know, they needed not to

25:47

add, they needed to take away.

25:49

Yeah. And also everything was in

25:51

the mid-range. So I think

25:53

that's also a lot

25:56

of producers who are not

25:58

as seasoned. will

26:01

have everything in the mid

26:03

range and there's nothing on

26:05

top and there's nothing on the

26:07

bottom. And so I like to

26:09

pay attention and see what earcandy

26:11

can we put that sparkily up

26:13

there? What can we put down

26:16

low on the bottom? How can

26:18

we make this a beautiful full

26:20

arrangement as opposed to just lumping

26:22

everything in the middle? You

26:25

mentioned before that your favorite

26:27

thing was producing. When it

26:29

comes to writing, is there something

26:32

to prefer like writing for

26:34

an artist or writing for

26:36

a movie or TV or

26:39

something? Do you have a

26:41

preference? Well these days in the

26:43

past I just like to write. So

26:45

I was building my catalog which is

26:47

now very large and I was just

26:50

and I wasn't even thinking I was

26:52

building my catalog I was just writing

26:54

songs that was what I did and

26:56

then I had a publishing deal and

26:58

then I didn't and I was just

27:00

writing new songs and people wanted to

27:03

write and new artists wanted to write

27:05

and we were just making music and

27:07

then I was pitching it and getting

27:09

it placed in all these movies and

27:11

TV. But today I love

27:14

writing with artists. who like

27:16

major label artists where I'm

27:18

channeling them and I'm not

27:21

writing about me. I

27:23

love doing that. It's

27:25

challenging and I also love

27:27

writing for media for

27:29

movies and TV and

27:32

promos and such like

27:34

you're mentioning. I love

27:36

to have those parameters

27:39

where they're commissioning

27:41

me and and and telling

27:44

me, okay, here's a

27:46

script, we need the songs

27:48

here, and even more

27:50

specifically these days,

27:52

my favorite thing to

27:55

do is animation, kids

27:57

animation. I love doing

27:59

this. It's so happy

28:01

and positive and the last

28:03

project I did, the songs

28:06

came first, which often happens

28:08

with animation, that is

28:11

so fun. That's so fun when

28:13

you get to create the songs

28:15

first and then the animation

28:17

is done to the songs,

28:20

right? It's so exciting. So

28:22

yeah, so as you're asking,

28:24

I prefer these days to

28:26

have a project or an

28:28

artist and write. That way,

28:31

rather than just write

28:33

songs to have more

28:35

songs. You have to

28:38

tell me about writing

28:40

with Bob Dylan.

28:42

I'm not sure how much

28:45

I can say, but I

28:47

think that it's an

28:49

amazing honor, of course,

28:52

and surreal, of course,

28:54

and being asked by

28:56

him to do that

28:59

amazing. I wrote the lyric,

29:01

amazing, because he had

29:03

some music, like we all

29:05

have, like I was saying

29:07

before I had that piece

29:09

of music for years, and

29:11

I just could not come

29:13

up with anything, lyrically for

29:15

it. He had some music, and

29:18

he likes it. And he likes

29:20

the production, and hopefully

29:22

he's going to work it

29:24

up with his band, and that's

29:27

where it is where it is

29:29

right now. But you know,

29:31

he's an he's an

29:33

amazing man and I've

29:35

had some conversation with

29:37

him that was very

29:40

interesting about the

29:42

concept of writing for

29:45

one as an artist

29:47

and basically the

29:49

conversation we're having

29:51

and writing for projects

29:54

that where one is

29:56

not the artist. That,

29:59

the difference, says

30:01

in that, because of

30:03

course he writes for

30:05

himself as an artist

30:07

and he's a touring

30:10

artist. He's a performing

30:12

artist and I'm not

30:14

anymore. So that was

30:17

an interesting conversation

30:20

of about one who doesn't

30:22

perform what they write.

30:24

Yeah, I don't want

30:26

you to. you know,

30:28

reveal any confidences or

30:30

anything like that, but just...

30:32

Just after confidence,

30:35

but... Well, I mean, just to

30:37

be asked to write with an

30:39

icon like that is such an

30:41

honor. I mean, how many times

30:43

does that happen? Beyond. Beyond.

30:45

Beyond. I have no words

30:48

for that, and I've written

30:50

with amazing, amazing writers.

30:52

Now, Rogers, Jerry Goffin.

30:55

Just some... amazing talent

30:57

and legends. Was there

31:00

one of these particular

31:02

legends that you really

31:05

learned something from that went

31:07

away on, wow, I'm going

31:09

to use that? Oh, every, all

31:12

of them, all of them. I

31:14

mean, you know, I spent a

31:16

lot of time in Nile Roger's

31:18

studio under his tutelage

31:21

and quite a few years

31:23

observing. and learning.

31:25

And I would say that

31:27

was so inspiring and

31:30

significant and educational.

31:33

Yes. You know, that's, but then

31:35

I mean, I was in the

31:37

studio with Barry Goldberg,

31:39

I wrote a song with, two

31:42

songs, we've been Leland Sklar playing

31:44

bass. And like, I mean, I've

31:46

just, I've just been in the

31:49

studio with. So many masters, a

31:51

friend of mine wrote a song

31:53

and invited me to a session,

31:56

he wrote the song with Herb

31:58

Albert and Herb was there. and he

32:00

was so kind and so nice

32:03

and oh my God you know

32:05

horns and like yeah what

32:07

are we learning here like

32:09

everything these people are and

32:12

my husband who is such a

32:14

legend you know I sometimes

32:16

I forget because he's

32:18

my husband but I

32:20

think I sit in

32:22

the studio with him

32:24

working he mixes and

32:27

engineers and my work and

32:29

I mean, come on, right? Like, what

32:31

don't I learn? What don't I

32:33

learn? You mean, I am not

32:35

an engineer. I do not know

32:37

what all those novels are for.

32:39

I mean, you know, I know

32:42

that I wanted to sound like

32:44

this and I can convey, can

32:46

it have more echo? Can it

32:48

have less S's? Can it have,

32:50

but you know, learning how he

32:53

puts all this together?

32:55

Amazing, amazing stuff, you

32:57

know? And even people

32:59

who aren't famous, I

33:01

mean, my main collaborator

33:03

Larry Treadwell, well, I've

33:05

worked with now 45

33:07

years practically, I mean,

33:09

he's so talented, right?

33:11

He's just amazingly talented now,

33:13

is he a household name?

33:16

He should be, but no, but

33:18

I mean, sometimes when he plays,

33:20

I cry. I mean, he's so...

33:22

The musicality that pours out

33:25

of his veins is

33:27

incredible and the

33:30

parts he comes up with

33:32

and what he can hear.

33:34

That's amazing too. Like,

33:36

you know, what he is

33:38

hearing, he has perfect pitch

33:40

and he is amazing. All

33:43

these people, like, right?

33:45

Where aren't we a product

33:47

of all the people? that

33:49

we work with. I mean, I

33:51

work with Sarita Wright. I got

33:53

to write with her and produce

33:56

her in the studio and I

33:58

produce Sam from Sam from. Sam

34:00

Moore from Sam and Dave. I

34:02

mean, yeah, all right. I mean,

34:04

I've been so blessed. Like if I

34:06

went through my credit sheet, I'm

34:09

like, Oh my God, I got to

34:11

work with that person and that

34:13

person. And how is that possible? Bernard

34:15

Edwards, who I got to sing

34:17

for right on Ian Hunter and McRonson's

34:19

record, who I also got to

34:21

work with and just on and on

34:23

and on. It's

34:29

and it's extraordinary to

34:32

think about all these

34:34

amazing humans. Okay, bigger

34:37

than life. Is there one that

34:39

really jumps out to you where you go, Okay,

34:41

I'm most proud of that. Well, you

34:43

know, I'm I

34:45

know, not not project wise. I

34:47

mean, there are some of them

34:50

I'm most proud of because they

34:52

were the most commercially successful and

34:54

they made me money. But my

34:56

favorite project is the one I

34:58

just finished from Mattel for Barbie. I

35:01

loved working on this project. It

35:03

was very creative. My team

35:05

of people because you have

35:07

a team when you do

35:09

this of directors, producers and

35:12

people who standards and ethics

35:14

and there's so many people

35:16

involved. I loved

35:18

working on this project. I

35:20

was treated so respectfully.

35:24

And it was so creative.

35:26

And often on the projects

35:28

I've worked on, I've not

35:30

been treated that well. And

35:34

I sadly,

35:36

usually I'm just like pay me. And

35:40

I don't even care. This

35:42

project was so amazing.

35:44

I loved working on it

35:47

every second of it. And

35:50

so I'm very proud of

35:52

it because I enjoyed it

35:54

so much. Right. You know,

35:56

and other ones, I made

35:58

me money, but they always were

36:00

fraught with difficulty. And

36:03

my favorite

36:05

song of all time, Nobody Likes

36:08

and Nobody Places and Nobody

36:10

Cats that I created. So

36:12

there you go. Yeah, there we

36:14

go. Right? You know, I pitch it and

36:16

people go, yeah, that's nice. What else you got? And

36:20

my co -writer on the song, the

36:22

same thing. It's always the song

36:24

she cites is her favorite song. And

36:26

we didn't know that. We found

36:28

that out independently. And the same thing,

36:31

both of us know people are like,

36:33

yeah, it's okay. It's just a

36:35

matter of time. Yeah,

36:37

you know, but don't you have songs

36:39

like that where people just don't

36:41

respond? Well, there's a lot

36:43

of stuff that yeah, you go, oh, I

36:46

think that was pretty good. And why doesn't anybody

36:48

else understand? Right.

36:50

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, so I

36:52

always feel like I let

36:55

people down when I answer that

36:57

question of what is my

36:59

favorite, but you know, I've had

37:01

over 6 ,000 placements. So there's

37:03

so many of them. And

37:05

I've had hundreds of cuts and

37:08

a ton of hit songs

37:10

all over different different

37:12

countries and local artists,

37:14

major label people in

37:16

Romania and the Czech

37:18

Republic. And so to

37:20

pick one is so

37:22

hard because I'm so

37:25

proud that I can't even

37:27

believe that, you

37:29

know, sometimes people are really not nice to me.

37:31

And I have to read my credit sheet. And

37:34

then I read my credit sheet, like, someone

37:36

I'm giving my credit sheet to

37:38

and I go, Oh, well, look

37:40

at that. I've done some stuff.

37:43

That's pretty cool. Because sometimes

37:47

people don't see it that

37:49

way. I

37:51

can't imagine anyone not being nice to you.

37:54

Oh, that's sweet. But, you

37:56

know, you know, yeah, it's

37:58

the business I know. the business.

38:00

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've

38:02

had people say such things

38:05

that are so mean that, you

38:07

know, you just have to brush it

38:09

off. You can't like, I always tell people

38:11

who are so scared of the rejection,

38:13

you know, I get rejected all day long.

38:15

You just the yeses

38:17

matter. Only the yeses matter.

38:20

The nose don't matter. You

38:22

just keep moving forward. The

38:24

nose are constant. You

38:26

know, just, just, um,

38:29

yeah, right? Don't you,

38:31

don't you think so? Yeah, it's

38:33

still hard, so hard to get rejected.

38:35

It's still hard to hear negative things. All

38:39

day. I mean, I've

38:41

heard the meanest things. I

38:43

mean, just, just so

38:45

mean. People have been so mean.

38:48

Okay, well, let's talk about

38:50

something a little less mean

38:52

than, um, and it's my last question

38:54

to you. What's the best piece of

38:56

advice that maybe somebody imparted to you

38:59

or maybe you learned along the way? Uh

39:02

probably the best piece

39:04

of advice I learned

39:06

from a teacher from high

39:08

school who wrote in my

39:10

yearbook, never depend upon

39:12

anyone. That's awesome. And

39:15

so true. Yeah, yeah,

39:17

you know, and that's a great

39:19

piece of advice. It's not negative

39:21

or sad. And for me, it's

39:24

propelled my whole career

39:26

and my whole life

39:29

because I just to go for it. If

39:32

I ask you, can you help

39:34

with this and you don't show up?

39:36

I don't get angry with you. I

39:39

just keep moving forward

39:41

because people are busy and they

39:43

have things to do and their

39:45

own things to do. And sometimes

39:47

it doesn't work out.

39:49

And so I just

39:51

always move forward and always

39:53

try to get a new

39:56

opportunity and don't get stuck,

39:58

right? People get stuck. You

40:00

know, even when you give an

40:02

interview, I guess people are often

40:04

discussing, well, you know, when I

40:06

was 22, this happened to me

40:08

and it was terrible and my

40:11

whole life. No, I don't, I

40:13

mean, I try to help people

40:15

say, that's just move forward. Don't

40:17

worry about it. We all have

40:19

so many stories of

40:23

these things that could have set

40:25

us back. But

40:27

if they don't set us

40:30

back, use them to propel

40:32

ourselves and be positive, then

40:34

I think opportunities are bounding.

40:36

And so, yes, I mean,

40:38

and you know, that's the

40:41

first time I've mentioned that,

40:43

that you just asked me

40:45

about that person and that

40:47

small sentence, actually.

40:49

Yeah, that's a great way to

40:51

look at life, I think, and a

40:53

great way to proceed. It certainly

40:55

helped you. Oh, thank

40:57

you. Yes, and I'm still trying.

41:00

So I haven't given it up yet.

41:02

That's a good point to be.

41:04

I've been doing it for decades, but,

41:06

you know. Well, I'm sure we're

41:08

not going to stop now. So and

41:10

no reason to. No, I just

41:12

got a new agent. I'm very excited.

41:14

Oh, there you go. Right. Yeah.

41:16

So now, you know, every time I'm

41:18

going to quit, somebody says, yes. And

41:23

then I'm like, oh, no, I

41:25

can't quit. Yeah. Right. Do you

41:27

ever have that where you think

41:29

I'm done? Yeah. Right. Right. It's

41:31

enough already. And then somebody says,

41:33

yes. And you're like, ah. Michelle,

41:37

thanks so much for your

41:39

time. I really enjoyed speaking

41:42

with you. Me too. Thank

41:44

you. And I enjoyed reading

41:46

your blogs, listening to your

41:48

other podcasts and to to

41:50

your book, reading all these

41:52

books you've done. Thank you.

41:54

Oh my God. I'm looking

41:56

forward to reading yours. Yeah.

41:58

Someday when I get it

42:00

finished. All right. Don't. get it

42:02

finished, get it published, yes. Let me know

42:04

about that. I want to read it

42:06

and we'll have you back and you

42:08

can talk about it. Great, I'm

42:10

honored. Thank you so much for having

42:13

me. Thanks very much Michelle.

42:15

Thanks for listening and being

42:18

in my inner circle. Remember

42:20

if you have any questions

42:23

or comments you can send

42:25

them to questions at Bobby

42:28

Osinsky.com. This is Bobby Osinsky. I will

42:30

see you next time.