0:00

We went through a time where home

0:02

theater, and mainly we're talking in the

0:04

United States, right? I mean, sure it

0:06

exists in other places, but not like

0:08

it does in the United States, where

0:11

we have larger homes. We have the

0:13

space. But yeah, they still exist, and

0:15

they're very vibrant. I mean, gosh, home

0:17

theaters especially go. all out. I mean,

0:19

again, you're usually, you're not talking about

0:22

the pro or the hobbyist. You're talking

0:24

about the guy that's got lots of

0:26

books. I'm generalizing here, but he may

0:28

not even appreciate the audio, the fact

0:31

that he's got the best. He wants

0:33

the best, and maybe he just wants

0:35

to show off the fact that he's

0:37

got the best. But it doesn't have

0:39

the ears, the experience, appreciation, and knowledge.

0:42

Welcome to Bobby Osinsky's inner circle. I'm

0:44

Bobby Osinsky, and this is a show

0:46

all about music, music production, and the

0:48

music business. My guest today is acoustic

0:50

consultant Norman Varney of AV Room

0:52

Service. Norman has designed over 500

0:55

critical listening rooms around the world,

0:57

starting back when he owned audio

0:59

retail store. After that he became

1:01

director of custom installation and home

1:03

theater divisions at Music Interface Technologies.

1:05

There he designed an innovative and

1:07

elaborate electrical system for the scoring

1:09

stage of Lucas Films Skywalker Ranch.

1:11

Norman then became a senior engineer

1:14

with acoustic systems business at Owens

1:16

Corning Science and Technology Center. There

1:18

he spent a considerable amount of

1:20

time testing in an anicoke chambers,

1:22

reverberation chambers, and acoustic labs in

1:24

general. During the interview we

1:26

spoke about some common acoustic

1:28

myths, acoustic listening tests that

1:30

Owens Corning, how extravagant home

1:32

theaters can get, the difficulty

1:34

in designing an immersive playback

1:37

room, the built-in resident point

1:39

in American home construction, and

1:41

much more. I spoke with Norman

1:43

from his home in Johnstown, Ohio. I

1:45

saw that you were going to do a

1:47

webinar about the myths of acoustics. And

1:50

this is going to posts. Afterwards

1:52

this is probably going to

1:55

post January so You

1:57

might be giving out anything here

1:59

if I ask you about some

2:01

of the myths that you'd like

2:03

to bust about acoustics. Okay.

2:05

Yeah, I know this one that's

2:08

coming up says that that's

2:10

not really what it's about.

2:12

I'm sure we'll cover that,

2:14

but that's not what I

2:17

planned out. Okay. It's really,

2:19

but there are so many

2:21

myths out there that I'm

2:23

confronted with as an acusical

2:25

engineer every day. And it seems

2:27

like... You know, I've been at

2:30

it for decades and these

2:32

myths don't go away.

2:35

And it's really frustrating.

2:37

I find it more miss in

2:39

the audio file world than

2:41

the pro audio world, which,

2:44

you know, is understandable. But

2:46

it is very

2:48

frustrating. And even in

2:50

the pro audio world,

2:53

there are constantly things

2:55

that I just

2:58

fundamental. observations that

3:00

you know you're going oh

3:02

my gosh you know if

3:04

you just if you just

3:06

did this it would make

3:08

such a big impact on

3:10

on your work and and

3:13

your flow and your efficiency

3:16

and your translation

3:18

and you know all those things

3:21

it would be so

3:23

obviously acoustics is is

3:25

still Not often thought of

3:28

it's not often top of

3:30

mind and it should be

3:32

for you know those that

3:34

are in the professional

3:36

audio business it's it's got

3:39

to be front of mind.

3:41

So yeah, it's a it's an

3:43

issue. I guess we'll always be

3:45

an issue. Yeah. Okay. So give

3:48

me a couple of the most

3:50

common ones. Studios on

3:52

a console. I'll see small

3:55

monitors. with the tweeters on

3:57

on you know they're instead

4:00

of vertically standing, they're

4:03

horizontal. And they're

4:05

towed in. And it's like, wow, you

4:07

know, I mean, that limits you to

4:09

right here. You know, I can't move,

4:11

I can't move around at all,

4:13

or it's going to completely change

4:15

the sound. And just an inch

4:17

makes a tamper totally changes,

4:20

spatiality totally changes. It's, you

4:22

know, you don't want to

4:24

be stuck right here. And

4:26

for an audio file, you

4:28

can be. You know, you can

4:30

just sit there and listen.

4:32

But when you're on the

4:34

board, you're all over, you

4:37

know, you're reaching around and

4:39

you're making adjustments and you

4:42

want to listen and

4:44

hear those adjustments while

4:46

your head's in the not

4:48

ideal perfect spot. So let's

4:50

make it better. Let's make

4:52

it easier on you. So that's

4:54

one. And then along that

4:57

same line timing. time

4:59

alignment of those drivers if it's

5:01

if it's on an angle like

5:03

that and it's Get my hand

5:06

in the screen and it's

5:08

towed in Then that tweeter

5:10

is going to be arriving

5:12

before the the mid-range and

5:14

woofers The subwoofers

5:16

subwoofers are often

5:18

hopefully their time aligned, but

5:21

they're often not So

5:23

with a subwoofer you have

5:25

you have the the phase

5:27

any variable phase and you have

5:29

the gain and you have the

5:31

crossover. And hopefully you're

5:33

crossing over from the midst

5:35

and highs as well, right?

5:38

Often I don't see that.

5:40

They'll be running the the

5:42

main's full range. So they're

5:44

still playing down low. They're

5:46

still playing, say, whatever, below

5:49

80 hertz. And working and

5:51

the amplifier that's driving them

5:53

is also working. So

5:55

crossovers and external

5:57

crossover. be it analog or or

6:00

DSP needs to come into play.

6:02

Nowadays, especially with DSP, gosh, you

6:04

can dial it in so that

6:06

you don't have, especially if you're

6:09

talking about an array of subwovers

6:11

where you can really eliminate

6:13

the room mode problems and

6:15

really get the time alignment

6:18

correct and really get it to

6:20

act as one voice, to sound like

6:22

one voice rather than a combination

6:24

of a couple of different

6:26

voices. So that's a couple. I

6:29

noticed that your company does what

6:31

you call frequency response panels.

6:33

Yeah. Concentrating on the lower

6:35

frequencies rather than the midst and

6:37

the highest, which most acoustic

6:39

panels do. Yeah. And that's the

6:42

biggest problem in studios for the

6:44

most part. It's the low end.

6:46

It's always, always the most difficult,

6:48

the most problematic for a couple

6:50

of reasons. The average Joe even,

6:52

you know, somebody who's not into

6:54

audio. The first thing that... from

6:57

a sound quality attribute, he'll

6:59

notice is the base. How

7:02

extended is it, how

7:04

articulate is it, how dynamic

7:06

is it. Even if he's,

7:08

like I say, not aware,

7:11

not appreciative of audio, that's

7:13

the first thing that they'll

7:15

notice. But they're large

7:18

wavelengths. They have lots

7:20

of energy. They're room shape

7:22

and size dependent.

7:24

So it's not just about

7:26

the low frequency extension

7:29

of the the mains or the subwoofers.

7:31

The room has so much to do

7:33

with how that interacts. And

7:35

so yeah, it's low frequencies.

7:37

And again, when we're talking about

7:40

noise control, not just sound

7:42

quality, but noise control, the

7:44

low frequencies are the difficult.

7:47

The long wavelengths, the

7:49

high energy. So they're very

7:51

difficult and often expensive.

7:54

to treat. But there's a number of

7:56

ways that can be treated. It can

7:58

be treated and like anything. in acoustics,

8:01

it's usually many

8:04

different solutions to

8:06

address it. So with the

8:08

low frequencies, we're talking

8:11

about the size of the

8:13

room. So the dimensions

8:15

are going to dictate

8:17

the room modes and where

8:19

they live in the

8:21

room and how they're

8:24

distributed amongst themselves.

8:26

So the dimensions

8:28

and or shape. of the room. So

8:30

if the room is, let's say it's

8:32

a concrete bunker, then its shell

8:35

construction is not going to

8:37

give at all. It's not going

8:39

to act as a low-frequency absorber.

8:42

It's not going to move. So

8:44

all that energy is going to stay

8:46

contained and linger. It doesn't

8:48

have a chance to be absorbed, right?

8:51

So if you have a shell construction

8:53

that flexes. So the

8:55

room still resil, it's

8:57

a resilient, it's a

8:59

resilient. construction, but it's still

9:02

airtight or water tight. So

9:04

you might have a

9:06

floating floor, isolated walls,

9:08

suspended ceiling, but all those,

9:10

though they're independent from

9:12

each other, the construction allows

9:15

it to move, and

9:17

yet they're still all sealed.

9:19

So you've got, you know,

9:21

resilient caulking and so forth.

9:23

So it's still airtight from

9:26

a noise control point of

9:28

view. Yeah. Yeah, it's expensive

9:30

too because it's kind of

9:32

brute force stuff. And everybody

9:34

keeps on hoping for really

9:36

cheap and expensive way to

9:38

do that. There's not. And

9:40

you know, that's the construction

9:42

part of it. Then there's

9:44

still other ways that we can

9:46

address the room modes. Location

9:48

of the listener and location

9:51

of the main speakers or subwovers

9:53

so that we don't. Now it's

9:55

a room. So there are room

9:57

modes in there. and the smaller

9:59

the and often control rooms,

10:01

mix rooms are very small,

10:04

the more problematic those room

10:06

modes are. We've got a

10:08

big room, then we have

10:10

many room modes, and so

10:12

then they're evenly distributed, they're

10:14

not piling up on top

10:16

of each other, they're not

10:18

as perceptual, not as

10:20

obvious. So let's put our

10:22

speakers and our ears in a

10:24

position in the room that's optimal.

10:26

that stays away from, say,

10:28

peaks or troughs of rheumas.

10:31

Then we can look at, you

10:33

mentioned the frequency response

10:35

panels, so we make,

10:38

that consists of many

10:40

different panels, and we

10:42

do make some that are for

10:44

low frequencies that work diaphromatically.

10:47

So you've got a membrane

10:49

that is able to move.

10:51

So rather than resistive, it's

10:53

pressure. activated, I guess you'd

10:55

say. So they need to

10:58

be in the right location.

11:00

Any acoustic treatment though, the

11:02

right type, in the right

11:04

location, in the right quantity.

11:06

Every room's different, every room's

11:09

unique. So there's going to

11:11

be a prescription, a formula that's

11:13

ideal for your particular room to

11:16

get it so that it is

11:18

neutral. So that it translates well.

11:20

And then lastly, then you've got

11:23

DSP or other kind of equalization.

11:25

And with DSP it's nice in

11:27

that you've got, you know, you can

11:30

play with variable phase

11:32

and you've got a, you know,

11:34

you can, you can change the cue.

11:36

All of that is a dream that,

11:38

you know, we didn't have, you know,

11:40

way back. That was not, not

11:43

available to us. Now it's available

11:45

to us. It's easy to implement

11:47

and it's inexpensive. Well, I go

11:50

back and I'm sure you do.

11:52

Go back to the days of,

11:54

you. the white DQs that we're

11:56

using for room tuning. Oh yeah.

11:59

A manual. the analog ones. Yeah,

12:01

yeah, and they were problematic.

12:03

They introduced their own

12:05

problems as well. So like

12:07

anything, I mean, it's, it's a

12:09

room. So it's always a compromise.

12:11

What you, but what we can

12:13

do is optimize it. We can make

12:16

it the best that it can be.

12:18

And we can understand what

12:20

the compromises are, you

12:22

know, and that's my job as an accusation

12:24

is. is to explain to my

12:26

clients, okay, here's the problems and

12:29

here's the solutions and how we

12:31

can address them. Here's the pros

12:33

and cons of each of those.

12:35

And you're always going to have constraints.

12:37

It's going to be budgetary

12:40

or maybe real estate. You know,

12:42

when you're talking a little frequency,

12:44

you're talking about a lot of real

12:47

estate often to correct the problem.

12:49

It might be time constraints. It

12:51

might be weight, physical weight constraints.

12:54

many possibilities. And so those

12:56

have to those decisions have

12:58

to be made. And I

13:00

can't make them for the client.

13:02

All I can do is explain

13:04

to him, here's the pros and

13:07

cons of each of them, and

13:09

so that they can make an

13:11

informed decision. You've been in the

13:13

audio file world for a long

13:15

time, and I know you've been constructing

13:19

home theaters for a while. Well,

13:21

let's talk about that world for

13:23

a It doesn't seem to

13:26

be as vibrant as

13:28

it once was to

13:30

me as an outsider.

13:32

Is that the case?

13:34

As vibrant. I don't know

13:36

if I'd use that word,

13:38

Bobby. Yeah, poor choice.

13:41

I mean, they're maybe

13:43

not as prevalent. I

13:45

think that that's a

13:48

possibility. I mean, we

13:50

went through a time where

13:52

home theater, and mainly we're talking the

13:55

United States, right? I mean sure it

13:57

exists in other places, but not like

13:59

it does in the... United States

14:01

where we have larger homes,

14:03

you know, we have the

14:05

space. But yeah, they still

14:08

exist and they're very

14:10

vibrant. I mean, gosh,

14:12

home theaters especially go

14:15

all out. I mean, again,

14:17

you're usually, you're

14:19

not talking about the

14:22

pro or the hobbyist.

14:24

You're talking about the

14:26

guy that's got lots of

14:28

bucks. You know, and he,

14:30

I am generalizing here, but

14:33

he may not even appreciate

14:35

the audio, you know, the fact

14:37

that he's got the best. He

14:39

wants the best, you know, and

14:42

maybe he just wants to

14:44

show off the fact that he's

14:46

got the best, but, you

14:48

know, doesn't really, doesn't

14:50

have the ears, the

14:53

experience, the appreciation, the

14:55

knowledge that... you know, that

14:57

yeah, he's got great gear

14:59

and it's calibrated really precisely.

15:02

He doesn't, I mean, he

15:04

goes yes, and I totally

15:06

believe this, that the average

15:09

Joe appreciates that. I know

15:11

that for a fact, from

15:13

doing some work at Owens,

15:15

some jury tests with people.

15:17

I know that when given

15:20

the opportunity, that the

15:22

average Joe completely appreciates,

15:25

quality sound and

15:27

an acoustic environment

15:29

that's right and

15:31

it changes their emotion.

15:34

We did an Owens Corning,

15:36

we had two AB rooms,

15:38

we had, we were doing

15:41

R&D, we were developing

15:43

some acoustic panels and

15:46

how to engineer them.

15:48

So we built these two identical

15:52

rooms and I designed

15:54

them. average size and average

15:56

furnishings, but they did have good

15:58

dimensions because I didn't want to

16:00

have room-book problems and they

16:02

were good as far as noise

16:05

control too because again that was

16:07

not I didn't want that to

16:09

be interfering in the study. So

16:11

anyway so one had our acoustic

16:13

treatment and the other one

16:15

did not and and so

16:18

frequently we would have these VIPs

16:20

come in and you'd have to

16:22

explain the R&D that you're doing

16:24

and so forth. Now both these

16:26

systems like I say had they

16:28

were They were set up exactly

16:31

the same from construction and

16:33

furnishings. We had carpet, a

16:36

couple of sofas, a couple

16:38

of bookshelves, and large screen

16:41

TV, and a 5.1 surround

16:43

sound. This is back in, I

16:45

don't know, late 90s, I think. Every

16:48

once in a while we'd have these

16:50

VIPs you have to do a little

16:53

dog and pony show and so I

16:55

play a little clip of a little

16:57

seven minute clip of from Das Bogh.

17:00

Do you remember that movie that

17:02

German movie? Very cool movie.

17:04

There's a section where they're

17:06

diving down deeper than the

17:08

sub was designed to withstand trying

17:11

to evade some explosives being

17:13

dropped down after them. And

17:15

so I'm playing that clip. And

17:17

I had so many VIP

17:20

guys who don't care, don't

17:22

know about audio at all,

17:24

be in the treated room

17:27

and go, I want this

17:29

at home. And so it

17:31

was after whatever, you

17:33

know, the third or fourth

17:35

one where I'm going, it's

17:38

not just me who appreciates

17:40

this, who understands it

17:42

and everything. We had

17:44

our own, we had

17:46

our own medical facility

17:48

there, our own staff full-time,

17:51

had our own audiology, you

17:53

know, booth, and everyone, we

17:55

had, you know, this is

17:57

the Science and Technology Center.

18:00

at that time there were about

18:02

600 people and they're

18:04

they're all engineers they're

18:06

from all over the

18:09

world so a great you know

18:11

a conglomerate of people and

18:13

so I asked the medical

18:16

staff I go can we

18:18

do some biofeedback you know

18:20

studies on on this

18:22

and they got really

18:24

into it after experiencing

18:26

it for themselves so I

18:28

did an email to those who

18:30

qualified as far as hearing and

18:33

got volunteers. And so we

18:35

did that. And so there,

18:37

that's how I can say

18:39

that because of that, the

18:41

average Joe, the acoustics can

18:43

control your emotions. And when

18:45

it's done right, you're the

18:47

same clip, whether they watched

18:49

it in the before treated

18:52

room or the after treated

18:54

room. first, because we would

18:56

alternate that, let them cool

18:58

down, and then go

19:00

again. They're in the

19:03

acusically treated room, their

19:05

blood pressure increased, their

19:07

respiration increased, sweat. We

19:10

could see on the

19:12

graph that was being

19:14

recorded of their vitals.

19:17

We could see this guy

19:19

got affected by the blood.

19:21

This woman got affected by

19:24

when the water started coming

19:26

in. I mean, it was

19:28

fascinating. It was a real, that

19:31

was a great experience for

19:33

me. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

19:35

You know, a few years ago,

19:37

there was, it wasn't a

19:39

study, it was an article,

19:41

I think from the Guardian,

19:43

that said, the headline was,

19:45

when a 20 year old,

19:47

here's final for the first

19:50

time. Here was a girl

19:52

who grew up listening

19:55

to music on her

19:57

phone. Yeah. And very...

20:00

very poor audio and that's

20:02

all she knew. And she

20:04

went to a friend's house

20:06

who had a reasonable

20:08

setup, playback setup

20:10

with final and she freaked

20:13

out. And it was like,

20:15

I've never heard anything like

20:17

this before and immediately

20:20

became an owner and

20:22

user of final. And I

20:24

think that's really the case, not

20:26

so much from the vinyl standpoint,

20:29

but from the standpoint that when

20:31

you hear really good audio, you

20:33

know it, you don't have to

20:35

be a professional. You just know

20:37

and it does something to you.

20:39

It's like, yes, I. Yeah. And

20:42

I think there's a couple of

20:44

things to that. One is, you

20:46

know, for example, her format, probably

20:48

MP3 and earbuds, you know,

20:50

low quality. So. dynamics

20:52

were missing and so a

20:55

lot of emotion from the

20:57

artist was missing. And then

20:59

also I think that, you

21:01

know, when you and I

21:03

grew up, we sat

21:05

down and listened. We

21:07

weren't doing other things

21:09

simultaneously while we were

21:12

listening. So we had

21:14

an opportunity to be

21:16

affected, to focus more.

21:18

And vinyl requires

21:20

that. Really? So yeah, it's an

21:22

experience that most of the

21:24

last generation or two have missed

21:26

out on. Yeah, you know, the other

21:29

thing was, I remember when I

21:31

was in college, everybody had

21:33

a pretty good stereo system.

21:35

I mean, everybody, that was part of

21:38

the rite of passage. You bought

21:40

a stereo system when you went

21:42

to college. And afterwards, it carried

21:45

over. Everybody had a good system.

21:47

and we lost that and that's

21:49

a real shame it is it

21:51

is a real shame and you

21:54

know i i can understand i mean

21:56

i don't know how they did

21:58

it back then you know That

22:00

would be a lot of noise, right?

22:02

Because those dorms were not,

22:05

you know, not isolated well.

22:07

And yet it was allowed.

22:10

And now that you wouldn't

22:12

be able to do that

22:14

without, you know, getting in trouble.

22:16

So that's a problem

22:19

because that exposure leads you,

22:21

right? I mean, when everyone's...

22:24

bar everyone's references at different

22:27

levels and if you've

22:29

never experienced this you

22:31

don't know it exists you don't

22:33

understand it and and so yeah

22:35

I think that that's one of

22:38

our challenges as with the younger

22:40

generation. Hi I'm Bobby Osinsky

22:42

and I'm a best-selling author of

22:44

several books on recording mixing and

22:47

mastering that are considered the gold

22:49

standard by many. I recently created

22:51

a new resource for songwriters, artists,

22:54

bands, and producers, and anyone looking

22:56

to fix common mixing problems so

22:58

they can get a better result,

23:00

stop wasting time experimenting, and not

23:03

get buried in information overload. I'm

23:05

calling it the Mix Fix Playbook.

23:07

15 Quick Solutions to Common Mix

23:10

Problems. These fixes are well known

23:12

among top mixing pros, but you

23:14

probably never knew they existed. If

23:17

you're looking to create mixes that

23:19

stand up to what you hear

23:21

on the radio, Spotify, or TV,

23:24

go to go. Bobbyosinski.com, slash Mix

23:26

Fix, to check it out now. Well, that

23:28

brings me to something else then. You

23:30

talked about the study that you did

23:32

with the 5.1 system. And now

23:35

here we are in immersive

23:37

world. And I'm curious

23:39

if you're building immersive

23:42

at most ready

23:44

rooms or is it still 5.1

23:46

or what does the client

23:49

care? Okay, well personally or

23:51

the... Both. Both. All right.

23:53

Well, I really enjoy

23:56

an immersive experience

23:58

and the day of... dedicated

24:01

space that I have here is a,

24:03

I mean, it's a dedicated space, it's

24:05

a room inside of a room,

24:07

and it's a, what I call

24:09

a 5.2 studio. So I

24:12

don't have everything else, though

24:14

I've, you know, designed it

24:16

and experienced it and

24:18

calibrated it and so

24:20

forth for others. Okay,

24:22

so here's my thoughts.

24:24

Totally depends on the

24:26

engineer. I mean, even more

24:28

so, you know. It depends on

24:31

the material, whether it's

24:33

believable or not, or just,

24:35

you know, it can be silly.

24:38

When it's good, it's a

24:40

great experience. My other thought

24:42

about it is this. If

24:44

you've, so more channels

24:47

mean more opportunity for

24:49

distortion, for errors,

24:51

for things to go wrong, for,

24:54

you know, I can't tell you

24:56

how many. existing home

24:58

theaters I've gone to help

25:00

out with the acoustics and

25:02

then when I come to

25:04

the calibration find out that did

25:06

you know that this tweeter's not

25:08

even working? I mean that

25:10

that kind of stuff or the

25:12

channels are out of phase or

25:15

maybe even reverse I mean it's

25:17

just unbelievable how you know it's

25:19

like how did you not know this

25:22

happen? When you've got umpteen

25:24

channels You've got lots

25:27

of electronics and lots

25:29

of calibration that needs to,

25:31

you have a system that's much

25:33

more complicated. You also

25:36

have the fact that you've got,

25:38

let's see, it's not a private,

25:40

well I could be a

25:42

private theater and still have

25:44

many people sitting. Well you've

25:46

got more people, when you

25:48

increase the number of listeners,

25:50

you have more people, you

25:53

have more people. closer to

25:55

other speakers and further

25:57

away from other speakers.

26:00

That's always going to

26:02

be a problem. If

26:04

we went the other way

26:06

and we had one mono

26:08

speaker, everyone, every

26:11

seat would get pretty

26:13

much really high quality

26:15

sound. Soon as we

26:17

add a pair, there's only

26:20

one point in space

26:22

where sound can converge

26:24

at the same point at

26:26

the same time. And we're never

26:29

going to get around that

26:31

unless we start wearing immersive

26:34

headphones. You know, and then

26:36

you can, you can get.

26:38

And there's a problem there too.

26:40

So, yeah. You know, it's funny

26:42

because I understand that how,

26:44

how much of a leap for

26:47

theatrical releases that

26:49

immersive can be, and

26:51

it certainly adds to it.

26:53

I'm not convinced about it.

26:55

I'm not convinced about. immersive

26:58

for music. And the funny

27:00

thing is there's record

27:02

labels, distributors, they all

27:04

want it and yet there's

27:07

no consumer demand. Yeah. So

27:09

it makes you wonder, huh?

27:11

Right. Well, and then again,

27:14

like you brought up, Bobby, I

27:16

mean, how many consumers have

27:18

atmos, you know, in their in

27:20

their home and are then,

27:22

you know, consumers of that

27:25

media. and it never will

27:27

be a lot. So yeah. I

27:29

went to a

27:31

private playback party

27:33

at EMI for

27:35

the Beatles at

27:37

most revolver, Allah.

27:40

And Giles Martin,

27:42

who did it, was there

27:45

and had outtakes

27:47

and described what they did. you

27:49

know it was only done on four

27:52

track but they used Peter Jackson's technology

27:54

to extract everything and not only extract

27:56

that they could extract a kick drum

27:58

and a snare drum. So it was

28:01

amazing, but it was a fantastic

28:03

mix. And one of the

28:05

reasons why is they kept

28:07

it fairly in the center.

28:09

And occasionally, when there

28:11

was a reason, there were things

28:13

that were out in size or

28:16

around you or above you or whatever,

28:18

it was rare, but it was

28:20

very tastefully done. everything seemed was

28:22

and this brings back to your

28:25

point about mono where it was

28:27

close to the center and it

28:30

was a very enjoyable experience on

28:32

the other hand i've gone to

28:34

playback parties for very successful albums

28:37

and immersive where you go

28:39

what are they thinking what's going on what's going

28:41

on yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

28:43

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

28:46

yeah yeah yeah you know it just goes to

28:48

show you know it just goes to show you

28:50

the engineer and experience

28:52

and everything has to

28:54

do with this with the playback experience.

28:57

It does. That's why I was

28:59

saying you know it depends on

29:01

on what's being done and who's

29:03

doing it too but yeah I

29:05

mean for movies it can be

29:08

fantastic very you know

29:10

involving but for music sometimes

29:12

it can just be a

29:14

distraction and silly but a

29:16

good example of the Beatles

29:19

and Because I mean, you

29:21

know, I grew up with them. And

29:23

so when it sounds different, I mean,

29:25

a lot of the things that I

29:28

think the stuff that Giles has done

29:30

has been really fascinating, even if it's

29:32

not, oh, this is what I grew

29:35

up with. It's like, oh, you know,

29:37

I mean, I'm hearing that differently. I

29:39

mean, everything is arranged differently. Okay, I

29:42

understand that. And he did, I think a

29:44

very good job, but the Beatles

29:46

love in surround sound. It's

29:48

a trip. It's very cool.

29:50

It's meant to be that

29:52

way though, you know. So it's

29:55

acceptable, I

29:57

think. Too bad that closed

29:59

down. did it? Well, because

30:01

the hotel closed. Yeah, they're

30:04

going to rebuild something else

30:06

there. So the show had

30:09

to go to Unfortunately.

30:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was pretty

30:14

good. That was pretty good.

30:16

I was looking somewhere doing

30:18

some research on you and

30:20

I saw that you at

30:22

one point in time attended

30:24

a Dick Grove workshop. Oh,

30:26

yeah, yeah. have a high

30:28

respect for anyone who's gone

30:30

to Dick Grove because everyone,

30:32

it was an outstanding program. I

30:35

never went and I wish I

30:37

would have, but it seems like everyone

30:39

I know who's ever gone there

30:42

has benefited greatly from that. Yeah,

30:44

I went for probably a couple

30:46

of years. You know, I lived in Southern

30:48

California and Palestine. So

30:51

Studio City was I don't know,

30:53

an hour drive or something like

30:55

that. So anyway, as soon as

30:57

I got a driver's license,

31:00

that was something I did. And

31:02

it was a great experience.

31:05

I got to, I was there

31:07

primarily studying drums. And so

31:09

I got to have, these

31:11

were group lessons with

31:13

people like John Garen, Louis

31:15

Belson, Ralph Humphrey's. I

31:18

mean on and on and on, it

31:20

was a, it was a, wonderful

31:22

experience. Yeah, I wish

31:24

there was something that was

31:27

similar to that today. There should

31:29

be, you know, there really should,

31:31

yeah. Yeah, I mean, there are

31:33

things that are kind of

31:36

close, but nothing exactly like

31:38

that because of the talent

31:40

that Dick could get, I

31:42

think, like you say, Ralph

31:44

Humphreys and Louis Belson.

31:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

31:48

Okay. So. I'm curious about

31:51

some of the products that

31:53

you guys make and one

31:56

is vibration protectors. Oh

31:58

yeah, gosh Bobby. I should have

32:01

won in front of me.

32:03

Gosh, darn it. It's all

32:05

right. We can put one

32:08

up. So, it's not a

32:10

big, not a big idea,

32:12

a big deal. Tell me

32:14

how those came about and

32:17

there are other isolation products

32:19

available. Why are they better?

32:21

Yeah. Okay. Oh, thanks for

32:24

bringing this up. It goes

32:26

totally along with your first

32:28

question about Miss. Not that

32:31

they're... Okay. In the pro

32:33

world, this doesn't really exist,

32:35

but in the audio file

32:38

world, this totally exists, this

32:40

myth of coupling. You know,

32:42

using spikes and coupling versus

32:44

decoupling. It's so aggravating. It

32:47

is the exact opposite of

32:49

what you want to do,

32:51

and yet it is done

32:54

almost all the time. And

32:56

so if you've got something

32:58

rigid, something hard, something solid

33:01

like that, especially if you're

33:03

going to put it down

33:05

to a point and concentrate

33:08

all that weight, all that

33:10

cabinet vibrations are going to

33:12

be transferred into the structure.

33:15

So now, whatever the resting

33:17

platform is, and everything in,

33:19

especially in the United States,

33:21

our construction is... Everything's hard

33:24

fastened to one another. So

33:26

if our speakers are on

33:28

the floor, the floor is

33:31

vibrating. And so now the

33:33

walls are vibrating and the

33:35

ceilings vibrating and the furnishings

33:38

are vibrating. And this is

33:40

why, you know, once the

33:42

vibrations get into the structure,

33:45

they really don't dissipate. The

33:47

denser, the material, the faster,

33:49

the faster and the further

33:52

energy. travels. And so, for

33:54

example, a subwoofer, this is

33:56

why you can hear the

33:58

subwoofer, the low... frequencies at

34:01

the other end of the

34:03

building or the construction

34:05

if it's not isolated. So

34:07

you want to isolate. And

34:10

the pro audio, this is,

34:12

yes, there's a number of

34:14

products out there. Why ours is

34:17

better. For one, there's a

34:19

standard test. There's a, you

34:21

use an impulse hammer,

34:23

it's a vibration transmissibility

34:26

test. And so under

34:28

while developing, this was something that

34:31

we were focusing on. I wanted

34:33

to be sure that the resonance,

34:35

everything has resonance, right? And like

34:38

cones, rigid things have many

34:40

residences and they're in the

34:42

audible bandwidth. Not good. So

34:44

in other words, residences are

34:46

amplifications. They're peaks at

34:48

different frequencies. You don't want

34:51

those in the audible bandwidth. You

34:53

want them at least an octave

34:55

below the lowest frequency of interest.

34:58

So let's say 20 hertz. So

35:00

I don't want to have anything,

35:02

you know, I want something below

35:04

10 hertz. So the

35:07

natural resident frequency, under

35:09

proper load, we make

35:11

different densities and different

35:13

sizes to handle different

35:15

weights, different loads. When you

35:18

do this properly, then the

35:20

natural resonant frequencies at 3.4

35:22

hertz, and they become effective

35:24

right at 5 hertz. So

35:26

from 5 hertz on up.

35:28

conservatively, they'll mitigate 90%

35:31

of the energy. So now

35:33

the room's quiet. When you

35:35

have a speaker on the floor,

35:37

and it's not decoupled, it's

35:40

coupled, you're experiencing

35:42

four arrivals of that

35:45

speaker. And you don't want

35:47

that. So the first one is

35:49

structural. Like I said, it goes

35:52

to the floor, that medium is

35:54

denser than air. So the

35:56

energy arrives to your whatever

35:58

you're sitting on. to your butt

36:00

bone and via bone conduction to

36:03

your ear. That's the first arrival.

36:05

The second one is airborne from

36:07

the speaker to your ear. That's

36:10

the one, the only one that

36:12

we want. The third one is

36:14

airborne again. These are reflections from

36:16

the surfaces of the room

36:19

and we can control those

36:21

pretty easily with with acusical

36:23

products. And then the fourth

36:25

one is structural again and

36:27

these are... Buzzes and resonances

36:29

and maybe rattles that are

36:31

created. And again, in our

36:34

typical two by four construction

36:36

in the US, put a

36:38

little light fist bump between

36:41

studs. You hear 70 hertz.

36:43

That resonance is going to

36:45

sympathetically, it's going to play

36:48

back whenever you play any music

36:50

with 70 hertz, which is going

36:52

to be like anything, right?

36:54

It's going to act like a

36:57

capacitor. It's going to store that

36:59

energy for a moment, and then

37:01

it's going to release it later in

37:03

time. After the original event,

37:05

it ceased. So now you've

37:07

got loudspeakers playing, you know,

37:10

new voices playing at different

37:12

times interfering with what you want

37:14

to hear. So when you get

37:17

rid of those pre and post,

37:19

rivals and your room is quiet

37:21

and most people have not experienced

37:23

this unless you know they're

37:26

isolating their their speakers.

37:28

It's a huge deal and

37:30

it hits it hits every

37:32

sound quality attribute. I know

37:34

of no other acusical treatment

37:36

that does and in addition

37:39

it handles noise control too.

37:41

Now you now your subwooper

37:43

isn't heard in an adjacent

37:46

space. So to me That

37:48

product, the EVPs, the equipment

37:50

vibration protectors, are the biggest

37:53

bang for the buck. And they take

37:55

three seconds to witness. Okay,

37:57

yeah, I didn't realize that.

38:00

When you said the four arrivals,

38:02

I was thinking myself, okay,

38:04

what are they? And the one I couldn't

38:07

think of was the rattles

38:09

and busses. Yeah, and synthetic

38:12

vibrations, yeah, and resonance. Yes,

38:14

yeah, and that's that's a

38:16

big one and very annoying.

38:18

Again, you talked about low

38:21

frequency energy. Okay, now we're

38:23

talking about isolation of the

38:25

structure, right? And those residences,

38:28

most people have not

38:30

experience their room, have

38:32

not experienced the

38:34

elimination of those

38:37

residences. And it's a big

38:39

deal. To experience the

38:41

room being quiet, like I say,

38:44

tamper, spatiality, every

38:46

sound quality attribute is

38:48

improved, dynamics. All of

38:50

that is improved when

38:52

the room no longer

38:55

plays. Have you ever

38:57

encountered a space? where you

38:59

went, no, this is just not

39:01

going to work no matter what I

39:03

do. Yeah, oh gosh, all the time.

39:06

Yeah, I mean, it depends

39:08

on, so one of the things that

39:10

you have to do when you

39:12

go into a place and your

39:15

ass, okay, can you organize the

39:17

sound for me? Can you

39:19

control it and so forth?

39:21

First you have to talk about,

39:23

okay, noise control, where are

39:26

we there? We have to

39:28

get that under control before

39:31

we can address sound quality,

39:33

right? So it depends on

39:36

the situation. Very frequently, noise

39:38

control, you know, can you

39:41

soundproof this? We're not going

39:43

to soundproof it, but here's,

39:46

we have to discover what

39:48

is the energy, at what

39:50

frequencies, and how is it

39:52

getting in or out? Sound is

39:54

a two-way street, so if it can get

39:56

in it can get out. So from

39:58

a noise control point... you and there

40:00

may be multiple paths and so

40:03

there will be again multiple solutions

40:05

we have to find out what

40:07

are the energies how are they

40:09

getting there and what is the

40:11

goal different people are going to

40:14

have different goals we need to

40:16

determine what is the goal to

40:18

find out what the answer is

40:20

and that may be different it

40:22

may be money that may be

40:24

whatever you know the constraints are

40:26

and then the same goes with

40:28

sound quality. And so if it's,

40:30

we've got a whole lot of, this

40:33

is a great environment to

40:35

work in because we are

40:37

looking at the mountains and

40:39

we've got all these huge

40:41

glass windows or whatever. Well,

40:43

that's going to be a

40:46

little difficult in that, you

40:48

know, the low frequencies are

40:50

going to just go through

40:52

those. And so we're going

40:54

to have to reinforce the

40:56

low frequencies or maybe it's...

40:58

there's we've got these

41:00

big glass windows and there

41:03

is some street traffic out

41:05

there and so we are this

41:07

is going to be a problem

41:10

we can solve it there's good

41:12

quality you know noise rated windows

41:14

that we can we can address

41:17

or maybe it's just you

41:19

know we've got a huge

41:21

reflection where that window is

41:23

Okay, well again, we're going to

41:25

have to make a compromise. We

41:27

can't make that window absorb. We're

41:30

going to have to place some

41:32

kind of an absorber in front

41:34

of it. Or maybe we

41:36

can angle it so that

41:38

that reflection is not aimed

41:40

at us. There's different solutions,

41:42

but again, like I say, it's always

41:44

a compromise. There's no such

41:47

thing as a perfect room. Okay,

41:49

Norman, last question for you.

41:51

So you've been... You've

41:54

been in business for

41:56

a long time and with

41:58

that comes lots of

42:01

challenges, lots of successes.

42:03

I'm curious what was the best

42:05

piece of advice that maybe somebody

42:07

imparted to you or maybe

42:09

you learned along the way? That

42:12

maybe I learned

42:15

early on, on my own,

42:17

was the more I learned

42:19

the more I realized how much

42:21

there is more to learn. And

42:24

so that has

42:26

made me become more open

42:28

-minded. And

42:33

that also I think

42:35

makes me want to prove

42:40

to myself

42:42

ideas that may

42:46

not make sense to me initially. Again,

42:49

when we're talking about perception there

42:53

is so much that we don't

42:55

understand and there is so much

42:57

that we can't yet measure but

43:00

we can proceed, we

43:02

can hear it. And

43:04

so I'm open -minded to

43:06

ideas until I can prove to

43:08

myself that they work or they

43:10

don't work, I'm

43:13

going to be open -minded. It's very

43:15

easy not to be. The older

43:17

you get. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

43:19

And that's problematic, right? The

43:22

other thing I'll just throw in there is

43:24

when I was at Owens Corning working with the

43:26

acoustic systems business, we had, there

43:28

was a group of I think

43:30

12 of us and we would

43:32

often, what

43:35

you call now, huddle rooms and we'd

43:37

have a big whiteboard and we

43:39

would just brainstorm. Oh, I missed that.

43:41

That is the coolest thing. No, there

43:44

are no bad ideas. Somebody could

43:46

say something super silly. It's like,

43:48

not way, but it then would

43:50

make somebody else think of this.

43:52

And I love that. I miss

43:54

that. And so that working with

43:56

different people is so

43:58

important. And again, being open -minded.

44:01

Very cool. That's a good place to

44:03

stop, think. to right. I think. All right. We should

44:05

do this again. We should do should do

44:08

there's a lot I want there's a talk

44:10

to you about. to talk to you about still. Yeah. Oh

44:12

gosh we it yeah time. do it all the time. Yeah yeah.

44:14

Thanks for Thanks for listening and being in

44:16

my inner circle. Remember if you have

44:18

any questions or comments, you can send

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them to send them to questions at .com. also

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time.