0:00

History is littered with examples of

0:02

new technologies coming onto the scene,

0:04

upsetting the status quo, and eventually

0:06

things settle out. Do artists still

0:08

paint paintings? Absolutely. Do photographers still

0:10

take photos? Absolutely. But now we

0:12

have AI that can do both

0:14

of those things, and they're upsetting

0:16

these people who were previously upset

0:19

over other things. It continually spins

0:21

like that. My guess today is

0:23

engineer mixer and broadcaster Matt Patrol.

0:25

Matt's musical journey began in the

0:27

late 1980s as a band member and

0:30

drummer, eventually transitioning into the world of

0:32

audio recording in 1994. Since Stendy's developed

0:34

expertise in stereo and Dolby Atmost

0:36

Mixing, with credits including Alanis Moore's

0:38

set, Death Cap for Cuity, and

0:40

Green Day, among many others. Matt

0:43

is also the founder and host

0:45

of working class audio, a podcast

0:47

with 20,000 monthly listeners, and over

0:49

530 episodes. During the interview we

0:51

spoke about the evolution of immersive

0:53

audio. his innovative approach to

0:55

mixing an atmos, his

0:57

insights after 500 plus

1:00

podcasts, encouraging authenticity and

1:02

music production, and much more. I

1:04

spoke with Matt from a studio in

1:06

the Bay Area. So the last time

1:08

we talked was 2021. Last time we

1:10

talked here. And you were just setting

1:12

up your atmos room at the time.

1:14

So what have you learned between now

1:16

and then when it comes to

1:18

immersive? Well, there's... There's been

1:21

a lot of developments

1:23

in terms of the technology has

1:26

matured quite a bit

1:28

in terms of the tools

1:31

that Dolby provides. You know,

1:33

of course, Avid has got

1:35

the Dolby render integrated into

1:37

Pro Tools and that switch

1:40

to that has made it

1:42

much easier for me. As

1:44

far as what I've learned,

1:47

it's I still feel that We're

1:49

early days here in the world

1:51

of, I'm just gonna

1:53

say immersive, because as

1:55

of this recording as

1:57

we speak, Samsung and

1:59

Google. have introduced

2:01

Eclipsa or Eclipsia or

2:04

I'm not sure how you how

2:06

you say it but that's a

2:08

new development so it what

2:11

it what I've learned is

2:13

that the taste or the

2:15

desire for a immersive format

2:18

must be strong enough

2:20

or to some degree if Google

2:22

and Samsung are willing

2:24

to go up against Dolby

2:27

to compete and I feel

2:29

that some form of

2:31

immersive technology will prevail

2:34

in the end, whether that's a

2:36

beta versus VHS type battle,

2:39

I don't know. So the idea that

2:41

it's going away and that it's

2:43

a fad, I'm not worried about

2:45

that. I feel like some version

2:48

of it is going to stay.

2:50

So I don't feel like this

2:52

investment in these speakers that you

2:54

may or may not see around

2:57

me. was a failed experiment. I

2:59

think it's been great. It's been

3:01

great for me and it's been

3:04

great for a lot of

3:06

friends of mine. I hear a lot

3:08

about Sony 360 lately. Yeah,

3:10

still. Well, yeah, apparently

3:12

there's something new that's

3:14

going on. Sony 360RA,

3:17

it's a different environment.

3:19

And it's especially for

3:21

creators. And I've heard raves

3:23

about it. One of the

3:25

things about Samsung and Google

3:28

is I haven't seen any

3:30

creator tools. That's right. I

3:32

have heard that they are

3:34

introducing a plug-in for Pro

3:37

Tools and also as of this

3:39

recording, I'm told that

3:41

there is a tool out there

3:43

that allows you to take an

3:45

at-most ADM file and put

3:47

it into a thing that

3:49

converts it to that format.

3:52

I am a little skeptical

3:54

of the Google Samsung thing

3:56

because we're talking about, you know,

3:58

two tech giants. getting involved in

4:01

an area that Do they really

4:03

have any expertise or or precedent

4:05

setting audio? That that they've you

4:08

know accomplished. I don't know. Well,

4:10

what I can tell you is

4:13

that they're installed bases huge for

4:15

Samsung. I do a lot of

4:17

traveling all over the world and

4:20

one of the things I've noticed

4:22

is every hotel room everywhere has

4:24

a Samsung TV and every airport

4:27

all the monitors are Samsung. Yeah.

4:29

So their installed base is huge.

4:32

That doesn't say that much for

4:34

the audio portion, which is, you

4:36

know, the software that they that

4:39

comes with the TVs are usually

4:41

pretty awful. So it doesn't bode

4:44

well for everything else. I have

4:46

to say. Well, I don't want

4:48

any of these things. Like I

4:51

don't like root for their failure.

4:53

I joke about Sony. I mean,

4:55

I've met Hero and June over

4:58

it. I think that what, you

5:00

know, they're coming out with tools

5:03

that hopefully will rise up and

5:05

be adopted by the masses, but

5:07

there's so much competition and then

5:10

it's also, I think, a matter

5:12

of consumer education. Now that's where

5:14

Google and Samsung could really prevail

5:17

as they've got, as you say,

5:19

they're big market players, number one.

5:22

Everybody knows Google, everybody knows Samsung.

5:24

And if they can, you know,

5:26

at the flick of a switch,

5:29

install their technologies, you know, across

5:31

everything that's already out there, they

5:33

may have a good run at

5:36

it. But it's that it's a

5:38

tricky thing because you've got to,

5:41

you've got to educate the consumer.

5:43

You've got to have the consumer

5:45

demand. And then you have to

5:48

have the pros on board and

5:50

the two have to. at some

5:52

point, it can't exist only in

5:55

the pro world, and it can't

5:57

only exist in the consumer world.

6:00

Well, I don't know if you

6:02

went through this, but I did.

6:04

When 5.1 went around first came

6:07

out, and I was on the

6:09

cutting edge, I did a lot

6:12

of 5.1 projects, 120 different ones,

6:14

a lot of concerts, a lot

6:16

of, you know, you name it,

6:19

television shows, repurposing them, things like

6:21

that. So it was a good...

6:23

time to be in that part

6:26

of the business. That being said,

6:28

all of a sudden it was

6:31

like overnight the faucet closed. And

6:33

the reason why was the consumer

6:35

demand wasn't what they had expected.

6:38

And a big problem was the,

6:40

I think they call it the

6:42

wife problem. Meaning that you needed

6:45

to set up especially your surround

6:47

speakers, you know, in order. for

6:50

them to be optimum, they have

6:52

to be in the right place

6:54

and everything. And for the right

6:57

place, it usually meant putting it

6:59

in front of a door, and

7:01

then there were the ugly cables

7:04

that were going everywhere, and that

7:06

in many ways stifled it. Now,

7:09

we have ways around that now,

7:11

so that's the good part of

7:13

those things, but there's still the

7:16

problem where it has to be

7:18

aesthetically pleasing in order to work,

7:20

you know, in a consumer environment,

7:23

and that's the sad part of

7:25

it, that, you know. people will

7:28

take into account. Yeah, and it

7:30

gets confusing, I think, for the

7:32

consumer when there's just so many

7:35

things, so many technologies. I mean,

7:37

if you're an everyday person who

7:40

has no, who has a passing

7:42

interest in audio, or you just

7:44

want to watch the show, you

7:47

know, you've got, as a company,

7:49

you've got big hurdles to, to

7:51

jump over, to convince a consumer.

7:54

So... you know while i'm bullish

7:56

on at most and i think

7:59

it's amazing I'll be the first

8:01

to admit, there's a lot of

8:03

work to be done on the

8:06

consumer side. The cars, you know,

8:08

that's coming. You know, car development

8:10

takes a long, long time. It's

8:13

not a thing that you can,

8:15

it's not like mass producing televisions.

8:18

It's a very different animal, I

8:20

think, in the production and marketing

8:22

and the creation process. So that's

8:25

a big help. That's a big

8:27

educator. But, you know. Unfortunately, for

8:29

better or for worse, the early

8:32

adopters of a technology like utmost

8:34

in the car area are more

8:37

high-end cars. Mercedes, Cadillac, you know,

8:39

and you know, not to piggyback

8:41

off my own name of my

8:44

own show, but it's not very

8:46

working class. And it's got to

8:48

be, you've got to get that

8:51

middle class working class approach. to

8:53

a technology like that if you're

8:56

gonna have mass adoption? Well, that

8:58

being said, there's certainly, when it

9:00

comes to theatrical, we've certainly had

9:03

mass adoption there. Because every theater

9:05

now is at most approved, at

9:08

most installed. So that's not a

9:10

problem. And I think everybody kind

9:12

of expects that in that realm.

9:15

Not so much when it comes

9:17

to anything else. As far from

9:19

what I've seen. Which leads me

9:22

to a question for you. So

9:24

we've all been there where we've

9:27

heard classic albums that were remixed

9:29

in utmost and have been really

9:31

disappointing. And occasionally there's something that

9:34

you go, wow, that's pretty awesome.

9:36

But I hate to say it,

9:38

but it's occasionally. that that happened.

9:41

So what's your approach? Because you

9:43

just agreed with me that that

9:46

happens. So what's your approach in

9:48

order to get around that? To

9:50

get around disappointment? Well to get

9:53

around the fact that maybe the

9:55

approach that some of other mitzers

9:57

are taking isn't quite working. Well

10:00

I mean that's a tough act

10:02

to follow. So number one, when

10:05

you have a classic album, it's

10:07

been cemented into the minds, into

10:09

the ears, the brains, the hearts

10:12

of, you know, tons of people.

10:14

And it's one thing to go

10:16

from, you know, when we went

10:19

from vinyl to CD, you know,

10:21

we see the usual suspects, the

10:24

Steely Dans, Michael Jackson's, you know,

10:26

any of those like cutting edge,

10:28

high fidelity records are usually the

10:31

ones first to be. ported over

10:33

to the new thing. And when

10:36

it comes to Atmos, you're breaking

10:38

with convention there of stereo and

10:40

you're, it's not like you're just

10:43

changing formats from vinyl to CD,

10:45

you're actually changing the playback of

10:47

it on a drastic level. So

10:50

if it differs in any way,

10:52

it's a challenge. Now, Michael Romanowski

10:55

and I had this discussion where.

10:57

In the days when Blu-ray or

10:59

SACD or any of these formats

11:02

where you could do something a

11:04

little different existed, that was an

11:06

ideal solution because the problem that

11:09

we've got now is that while

11:11

it's a bonus that we've got

11:14

Apple music, title, Amazon, all supporting

11:16

at most, the problem in that

11:18

though is that it's sitting side

11:21

by side with the stereo. So

11:23

you can switch back and forth,

11:25

and if it's on by default,

11:28

and the equipment is not there

11:30

in a way that if the

11:33

mix isn't good and the equipment

11:35

is not there in an ideal

11:37

performance type situation, in other words,

11:40

like a speaker array, then you

11:42

are, you're setting yourself up for

11:44

potential failure. Whereas in the in

11:47

the days of these physical formats

11:49

that had at most or or

11:52

5.1 things, you know, you could

11:54

get the special edition. like flaming

11:56

lips 5.1 and it was it

11:59

was a unique thing but it

12:01

also appealed to a unique audience.

12:04

So the way I get around

12:06

it now is I try to

12:08

really on to get some catalog

12:11

work and I failed miserably because

12:13

there was just such a you

12:15

know an influx of people and

12:18

unless you were in Los Angeles

12:20

on you know and knew some

12:23

people to get that work I

12:25

found it to be very difficult

12:27

to get it. So Fortunately,

12:30

it didn't work out because I

12:32

discovered what a colossal pain in

12:34

the acid is to do that

12:36

catalog work. There's so much, you

12:38

know, you probably spend a week

12:40

to two weeks just getting up

12:42

to speed with recreating the stereo

12:45

mix from assets that you may

12:47

be given. And I won't go

12:49

into all the permutations of how

12:51

that could, you know, be a

12:53

long drawn out process, but once

12:55

you get that, and you do

12:57

the utmost mix. The utmost mix

12:59

I think took less time than

13:01

the process of, you know, reconstituting

13:04

the stereo mix. So I'd focused

13:06

on, you know, I got a

13:08

few name acts that I got

13:10

to work on for new material.

13:12

Green Day, Lance Moore said Deaf

13:14

Heaven, actually Deaf Heaven was a

13:16

collaboration with me and Jack Shirley

13:18

who did the original, produced the

13:20

original. Sunbay the record for that

13:23

band, which was a seminal album

13:25

for them. I think it was

13:27

like 10 years ago. So there

13:29

was a slightly different situation, but

13:31

for the most part, 95% of

13:33

my work, and probably 98% of

13:35

my work, is independent bands who

13:37

control their own budgets, control their

13:40

own catalog. And I learned during

13:42

the Green Day process, the Green

13:44

Day thing was a taking... The

13:46

theme song to the real time

13:48

with Bill Maher show turning that

13:50

into at most because HBO wanted

13:52

to stream at most live including

13:54

the theme song. So we had

13:56

to deliver that to them. We

13:59

had to deliver an outmost mix

14:01

and other variations of that. But

14:03

along the way in doing that,

14:05

I learned, wait a minute, we

14:07

don't have to split this process

14:09

up. We could actually do this

14:11

at the same time. In other

14:13

words, we could have one pro

14:15

tool session that's doing the outmost

14:18

mix and generate the stereo mix

14:20

at the same time. And so

14:22

once the renderer found its way

14:24

into pro tools. I started to

14:26

develop some ideas, tested them out

14:28

with a young high school jazz

14:30

band of these young men who

14:32

are now graduated and in college

14:34

and going to, you know, Berkeley

14:37

and UCLA, but they did a

14:39

jazz record. If you didn't, if

14:41

you heard it, you'd think, oh

14:43

my gosh, this, these are adults,

14:45

but they were just kids. But

14:47

that album allowed me to test

14:49

the waters with this mixing in

14:51

stereo in atmos. once I did

14:53

that I was like okay this

14:56

is it this works so I

14:58

started to create a template I

15:00

put a thing out on YouTube

15:02

and just to you know educate

15:04

some people on the idea and

15:06

what it does is this it

15:08

economizes the process for the artists

15:10

from a cost perspective and it

15:13

also economizes the process for me

15:15

I don't have to do let's

15:17

get the stereo mix and now

15:19

let's print stems and now let's

15:21

do the utmost mix and it's

15:23

just like Let's just squeeze this

15:25

all down into one process. So

15:27

it's cheaper for them. It's a

15:29

simpler process for me, but I'll

15:32

just charge a little more money

15:34

than I would otherwise for a

15:36

stereo mix. And we get both

15:38

sets of assets out of it.

15:40

So that's how I've been approaching

15:42

it. And then the economic part

15:44

of that equation too is to

15:46

look beyond the streaming services. There's

15:48

immersive audio album.com where, you know,

15:51

admittedly. audio files as the audience

15:53

are buying downloads mKV files which

15:55

is essentially like It's a container

15:57

for those that don't know what

15:59

it is. I barely know what

16:01

it is. It's a container. It's

16:03

almost like a flack file version

16:05

of the utmost mix that they

16:07

can download. And they're paying, you

16:10

know, 20 to 25 dollars for

16:12

an album, $5 for a single.

16:14

So I try to educate my

16:16

clients about that to say, here

16:18

are the streaming services that you

16:20

could be on. Here's this other

16:22

thing that's like a band camp

16:24

style iTunes style, iTunes the digital

16:26

file format. It's an 80-20 split.

16:29

So that's another part of it

16:31

is just not just being an

16:33

engineer is being a bit of

16:35

a business person to say, let

16:37

me show you some economic outlets

16:39

for what you're doing here and

16:41

not just say, here's the file,

16:43

good luck. Give me my money.

16:45

I don't want to do that.

16:48

I want to participate and show

16:50

them, this is how we can

16:52

grow this. You know, it's funny

16:54

because there's so much in audio

16:56

that's sort of like that. music

16:59

I should say not just audio where you

17:01

have artists that they work so hard in

17:03

their album and then you ask them so

17:06

now what are you going to do and

17:08

they go well I don't know so have

17:10

this great album they never thought a second

17:12

about selling it or marketing it and that

17:15

happens woefully too much too many times I

17:17

hate to say it a magnificent album and

17:19

you go well now what I don't know

17:21

And you figure with all of the all

17:24

of the information out there that you would

17:26

have some sort of a clue you know

17:28

and people would but you know musicians just

17:30

want to be a musician you know because

17:33

you're one you just want to play especially

17:35

when you're younger you don't want to know

17:37

about the business most of the time yeah

17:39

so that's kind of stifles a lot of

17:42

people before they even start and I don't

17:44

know if my interest in that comes from

17:46

you know having been a drummer having had

17:48

a couple record deals in the days

17:50

Prior to cell phones

17:53

and the internet and

17:55

now on the other

17:57

side of the glass

17:59

seeing all the crazy

18:02

opportunities That musicians have

18:04

outside a major label

18:06

system Just in terms

18:08

of you know taking

18:11

absolute control of their

18:13

destiny I think I

18:15

mean doesn't to the

18:17

best of my knowledge

18:20

and I might not

18:22

have all the information

18:24

correct here But my

18:26

understanding is that Joe

18:29

Bonamassa is One

18:31

who is a great example of

18:33

that when he books a venue

18:35

like he rents the venue out

18:37

of pocket from what I understand

18:39

and Like he did like he

18:41

deals with the music industry in

18:44

a way that I think is

18:46

really Fantastic and he and we

18:48

all know who Joe Bonamassa is

18:50

sure so there's people like that

18:52

You know in prior to his

18:54

death Steve Albini famously, you know

18:57

didn't really participate in the music

18:59

industry I mean yes, he yes,

19:01

he worked on Nirvana and page

19:03

plan. He did a couple records

19:05

in the in in that world

19:07

But his day -to -day meat and

19:10

potatoes work from what I gather

19:12

was Independent bands coming to electrical

19:14

audio and I look to people

19:16

like that and I think okay

19:18

I want to play in that

19:20

world. I want to be one

19:23

of those people who helps get

19:25

stuff done and facilitate things outside

19:27

of that major label system because

19:29

I Don't know. I think it's

19:31

good. I think the major label

19:33

system is so outdated. Yeah, and

19:36

you know what's scary about that

19:38

is now we're finding that especially

19:40

over the last week where you

19:42

have The majors that are buying

19:44

more catalog buying more catalog buying

19:46

more catalog So now they're relying

19:49

more on catalog than they are

19:51

on anything that's new and Artist

19:53

development, which used to be a

19:55

really big deal and now Almost

19:57

seems like an afterthought. I also

19:59

have heard story of major labels coming in and

20:02

buying independent, independent,

20:04

you know, like a band camp, but not

20:06

band camp. So there's an attorney that

20:08

I follow online that was talking about

20:10

this, and I thought, ooh, that could

20:12

be, that could be a challenge, because

20:14

apparently the approach is, they come in,

20:17

they could buy an independent entity

20:19

that's selling independent music, and they

20:21

look at who's trending, come at

20:23

them and say, hey, independent artists,

20:25

we see your trending, we see

20:27

your trending, we see your trending,

20:29

we could join forces and we

20:32

could put your stuff out

20:34

and if that independent artist

20:36

then refuses they could put

20:38

the you know they could quash them very

20:40

easily and prevent them from

20:42

you know going any further. Yeah and

20:45

you know what it's like when

20:47

you're first starting anything that seems

20:49

like it's going to take your career

20:51

to another level or it's going

20:54

to help your career you're on

20:56

board with. Don't think about the

20:58

consequences. You just do it. Yeah.

21:00

So therein lies the problem. Let's

21:03

go someplace else for a second.

21:05

So how are you feeling about

21:07

AI and music? I don't have

21:09

the sky's falling thought process that

21:11

some people do. I mean, I think that

21:14

I think both of us have

21:16

seen a lot of technologies come

21:18

and everybody, you know, oh my

21:20

gosh, drum machines. What is this

21:22

world coming to? And, you know,

21:24

drumers are still in demand. But

21:26

there is music that really

21:28

benefits from programming

21:30

drum machines, artificial drums. I

21:33

don't think it's ever going to

21:35

be a 100% black and white

21:37

outcome for any of this stuff. AI

21:39

is going to come, it's going to

21:42

have its place, it's going to take

21:44

over in some areas, and it's going

21:47

to... Curtis in some areas it's

21:49

going to benefit us in some areas

21:51

and I think it will settle into

21:53

its play as far as you know

21:55

audio is concerned I love what's what's

21:57

out there I mean and I don't know if

21:59

you could consider Gulfos AI or

22:01

not, but you know, some of

22:04

these new type of machine learning,

22:06

yes, machine learning, yeah, sonable smart

22:08

EQ, you know, I welcome that

22:10

with open arms to see what

22:13

it can do. It always to

22:15

me goes back to, you know, I

22:17

understand people's concerns about, you

22:19

know, losing economic opportunity

22:22

as a result, but

22:24

it's like the horse and the

22:26

buggy whip, you know, it's like when

22:28

the... When the car was introduced, you

22:30

know, I'm sure that was quite upsetting

22:32

to a lot of people. When photography

22:35

was introduced, you know, artists

22:37

were up in arms. So history is

22:40

littered with examples of new

22:42

technologies coming onto the scene,

22:44

upsetting the status quo, and, you

22:46

know, eventually things settle

22:48

out. Do artists still

22:50

paint paintings? Absolutely. Do

22:52

photographers still take photos?

22:54

Absolutely. But now we have AI that can

22:56

do. both of those things and they're

22:59

upsetting these people who were

23:01

previously upset over other things so

23:03

you know it's just it continually

23:05

spins like that so I have

23:08

a love-hate relationship with it and

23:10

of course I wrote a book

23:12

on AI for music production so I

23:14

went and I studied 120

23:16

different plug-ins oh I used

23:18

them I actually used them

23:20

so and this is in and

23:23

everything that goes from music production

23:25

to or creation to production

23:27

to even to, you know,

23:29

imaging and, you know, everything in

23:32

between. And my feeling is, I don't

23:34

know how somebody could possibly

23:37

trust something that might

23:39

be wrong. You know, like a

23:41

large language model, okay, can

23:43

you really trust this output? And

23:45

if that's the case, you have

23:47

to double check it, you're kind

23:50

of defeating a purpose. So that

23:52

bothers me. Yeah, well, you know,

23:54

I'll give you an example like

23:57

early on with drum samples.

24:00

Sound replacer in pro tools

24:02

existed and you know when

24:04

I discovered utilizing

24:06

that tool I would use it and I

24:08

would realize oh okay not all these

24:10

samples are are in phase and and

24:13

I need to go back and I

24:15

need to triple check it you

24:17

know so it that would beg

24:19

the question well why even go

24:21

through that hassle well then along

24:23

comes slate trigger solves many

24:25

many problems and like anything

24:27

that's new it's going to

24:29

it's going to go through

24:32

its growing pains and you

24:34

know I'll be the first to

24:36

admit that with working class audio

24:38

all my interviews I do I

24:40

have zoom AI running so that

24:42

I can look at the look

24:45

at the summary and recall what

24:47

we talked about and just oh

24:49

I can draw from that information

24:51

and create my show notes from

24:53

that information in a rapid fashion.

24:56

And so that's an example

24:58

of where it speeds up my process.

25:00

Do I 100% rely on it?

25:02

Not exactly, but you know, there's

25:04

elements of it that I can

25:06

cherry pick and utilize to

25:08

speed my process. Yeah, yeah. I've used

25:11

it very successfully as a book editor.

25:13

twice. And what I would ask it

25:15

to do is check any grammar, check,

25:18

you know, spelling of course, but also

25:20

I would highlight certain areas and

25:22

say, can you make this clearer?

25:24

And sometimes it would, sometimes it

25:26

wasn't as good, but nonetheless, I

25:29

thought it was a very successful

25:31

use. It didn't write anything for

25:33

me, it just sort of... took

25:35

my words and made it a

25:38

little clearer and even that wasn't

25:40

that many times. But what ended

25:42

up happening was when you upload

25:44

a book, I self-publish currently

25:47

anyway, when you upload a

25:49

book to Amazon it automatically

25:51

does a check for all this. And

25:53

if there's too many errors it

25:55

kicks it back. And you know

25:57

if there's a dozen errors, small

25:59

things. you know, let's go through.

26:01

And that's kind of the norm

26:03

to be a dozen, 15, you

26:06

know, you'll have two does or

26:08

something like that. And this time

26:10

there's two. And the two that

26:12

were there were jargon that it

26:14

wouldn't have understood. Right. So I

26:16

looked at that and I thought,

26:18

okay, this is a very successful

26:20

use for it. I'll tell you

26:22

another successful use. You know, my

26:25

wife will be the first to

26:27

tell you that. Sometimes the tone

26:29

of my voice when I say

26:31

something, while my intention might be

26:33

good, sometimes I come off quite

26:35

harsh. And as a matter of

26:37

fact, Lyd Shaw from According Studio

26:39

Rockstar has joked, we were talking

26:42

about astrological signs and goes, what

26:44

are you? And I said, oh,

26:46

I'm a Sagittarius. He goes, I

26:48

think you're an agitorious. And I

26:50

said, yeah, yeah, I know, I

26:52

can be that way. And so

26:54

what I found is in replying.

26:56

in potentially heated situations or situations

26:58

where the verbiage could get escalated

27:01

on an email with somebody. I

27:03

find that running or, you know,

27:05

running my email through chat GPT

27:07

and saying, can you make sure

27:09

that I have a diplomatic tone

27:11

here and that I don't have,

27:13

you know, an aggravated sounding tone?

27:15

And I found it very, you

27:18

know, great for that. I was

27:20

doing an email thing with my

27:22

wife and we were trying to

27:24

send an email to, I think,

27:26

the principal of our kids school

27:28

over a potential situation with one

27:30

of our kids. And I sent

27:32

the email to my wife to

27:35

check, which I always do in

27:37

those situations. And she was like,

27:39

wow, this is great. Did you

27:41

write this? I said, no. I

27:43

wrote it and then I proved

27:45

it through chat. GBT. And she

27:47

was like, yeah, okay. Because this

27:49

sounds really, really, really, really good.

27:51

Really, really diplomatic, unlike you. Let's

27:54

go someplace else. You mentioned. a

27:56

couple times about your podcast. Yeah,

27:58

working class audio. You're way past

28:00

500 episodes now. What are you

28:02

up to? Next Monday, it'll be

28:04

530. Yeah. Right behind you. Yeah,

28:06

yeah, pretty much. So what have

28:08

you learned over the course of

28:11

all those? I've learned how to

28:13

jump into a conversation and rapidly

28:15

find out about somebody. I've also

28:17

learned that I have a very

28:19

strong interest in other people's... journeys

28:21

and their stories. It wasn't evident

28:23

in the very beginning to me,

28:25

but after a while I was

28:27

like, I really like asking people

28:30

questions and I would look back

28:32

into social situations of the past

28:34

where I was essentially doing the

28:36

same thing. I was so curious

28:38

about a person in their life

28:40

and how their life came together

28:42

as it was and that in

28:44

the early days when I was

28:47

much younger, it was kind of

28:49

met with... Why are you asking

28:51

me that? What business is that

28:53

of yours? Working class audio gives

28:55

me the license to ask, you

28:57

know, peers and colleagues, mutual friends

28:59

of ours, you know, sometimes tough

29:01

questions, sometimes just kind of general

29:04

broad stroke type questions. And it

29:06

didn't take me 530 episodes to

29:08

learn this, but I know from

29:10

talking all these people that there's

29:12

still always something new to learn.

29:14

There's so much to learn and,

29:16

you know. I've been in audio

29:18

for 30 years, I'm 55 at

29:20

this point, and I know one

29:23

thing that I don't care how

29:25

much experience you have, you're not

29:27

the smartest person in the room.

29:29

There's always somebody who's got, whether

29:31

the younger or older, there's something

29:33

to learn from somebody. And I

29:35

think that it's, I'll tell you

29:37

what it has, Tabi, that younger

29:40

people, I think, a lot of

29:42

them, you know. Have that I've

29:44

got you know, I've been doing

29:46

this for 30 years and you

29:48

know long before you were born

29:50

I've learned that that's not really

29:52

really a great approach if you

29:54

want to continue to be a

29:56

student of life. You got to

29:59

see young people as, yeah, you

30:01

may have more experience in that,

30:03

but they're also paying attention to

30:05

things that you've chosen to ignore

30:07

or be fearful of. And obviously

30:09

it's the same for younger people

30:11

looking at older people as, oh,

30:13

you're outdated, you don't know what

30:16

you're talking about. That's also a

30:18

mistake. One of the things that

30:20

I found. was you never really

30:22

know somebody until you interview them

30:24

and this would be with some

30:26

of my long-time friends that you

30:28

know I'd know for 20 and

30:30

30 years and I would interview

30:33

him and I go I never

30:35

knew that about you and so

30:37

many times that would come up

30:39

and I go how is it

30:41

that we never talked about this

30:43

before so that's always struck me

30:45

and it's always a reason why

30:47

I like to get some of

30:49

my friends on if they fit

30:52

Because, you know, again, you think

30:54

you know somebody, but you really

30:56

don't when it's all said and

30:58

done. Yeah, and it strangely bonds

31:00

you to people because I'll interview

31:02

people that I've only met through

31:04

a Zoom call, and then I

31:06

see them in person, and they

31:09

embrace me like, we've been friends

31:11

for years, and it only occurs

31:13

to me right then and there

31:15

that, oh, this is the first

31:17

time we're meeting in person. But

31:19

I find that the conversations I

31:21

have with people aren't. And I

31:23

think I feel like this is

31:25

true about your conversations. It doesn't

31:28

feel like we're watching or listening

31:30

to like 60 minutes or a

31:32

news type thing where it's very

31:34

like the lines of interview and

31:36

interviewee are so defined. I find

31:38

that it's a more collaborative, bring

31:40

out the information type thing. And

31:42

so you have a bond with

31:45

the person that you're. interviewing. Is

31:47

there anything you like to change?

31:49

About what? About the podcast, about

31:51

what you're doing there. You know,

31:53

I kind of adapt as time

31:55

goes along to things that is

31:57

my experience. and I didn't think

31:59

that you could get away with

32:01

that on a video, but then

32:04

I learned or the way I

32:06

do it slightly changes. But the

32:08

only change that I'm making now

32:10

is I ignored YouTube for 10

32:12

years because I was so fearful

32:14

of video and, you know, I

32:16

added out a lot of filler

32:18

words and try to make my

32:21

conversations very distinct. And I didn't

32:23

think that you could get away

32:25

with that on a video, but

32:27

then I learned, oh, actually, you

32:29

can. And so I, you know,

32:31

I jumped into Premier Pro and

32:33

took a. shot at editing some

32:35

things, made some, you know, early

32:38

videos and figured out where I

32:40

need to improve, and I just

32:42

continue to do it and put

32:44

the show, just the interview portion

32:46

of the show out on YouTube.

32:48

And so video is, I think,

32:50

if anything, that's what I want

32:52

to change, and I'm changing it,

32:54

is video is becoming a part

32:57

of my repertoire. All right, last

32:59

question. What's something about you that

33:01

people don't know, but you wish

33:03

they did? I think my heart's

33:05

in the right place. I think

33:07

for the most part people know

33:09

that, you know, I'm sincere in

33:11

what I do, you know, I'm

33:14

not out there bullshitting people. And

33:16

I try to, you know, I

33:18

just try to do the right

33:20

thing. And maybe that's people don't

33:22

always agree with that. Sometimes I'll

33:24

say things that I think, you

33:26

know, may run counter to what

33:28

others are thinking. But for the

33:30

most part, I think, you know.

33:33

I'm not just some content creator

33:35

out there, I'm in the trenches

33:37

engineer doing work with a lot

33:39

of independent bands and having for

33:41

a long time. So yeah, I

33:43

guess that's about the best answer

33:45

I can come up with there.

33:47

Sorry. That's a good one. No,

33:50

that is good. Because, you know,

33:52

we all do so much that

33:54

it's easy to misunderstand. Yeah, yeah.

33:56

I'm just a big believer in

33:58

people. For better or for worse

34:00

just being themselves and I try

34:02

to be myself as much as

34:04

possible. Who I am in public

34:07

is pretty much the same person

34:09

that I am at home. Maybe

34:11

I'm a little more patient in

34:13

public, you know. I think my

34:15

friends know that I have little

34:17

patience for bullshit is really at

34:19

the end of the day. And

34:21

for insincere situations, I just, it

34:23

drives me nuts. And the elder

34:26

I get, I think the worse.

34:28

the worst, I think my filter

34:30

starts to come off a little

34:32

more as I get older, which,

34:34

you know, I think is commonplace

34:36

for people growing older, but yeah,

34:38

and actually that was, I wanted

34:40

to touch on that with you,

34:43

is, you asked me in your

34:45

sign up for the interview, what

34:47

I wanted to talk about, one

34:49

of the things I just want

34:51

to mention, just piggybacking on that

34:53

being yourself thing is, I think

34:55

that if there's a piece of

34:57

advice I could. encourage

35:00

some of the younger people coming

35:02

up in the world of audio

35:04

and music is to you know

35:07

most definitely be yourself I think

35:09

that in pro audio specifically while

35:11

I have absolute love and great

35:14

respect for everything that pure mix

35:16

is done and mix with the

35:18

masters and produce like a pro

35:21

all of these situations and then

35:23

that would include you everything that

35:25

you're teaching I think that All

35:27

of that content is fantastic and

35:30

it really kind of educates people

35:32

but what I worry about is

35:34

people spending too much of their

35:37

development time Not developing themselves, but

35:39

trying to chase what other people

35:41

do whether it's via presets or

35:43

downloading templates and trying to be

35:46

like like Vance pal like Andrew

35:48

Sheps or you know insert name

35:50

of fantastic person engineer here. it's

35:53

I think it's it can be

35:55

self sabotaging and I really want

35:57

to encourage people to learn from

36:00

those those areas that you can

36:02

such as all those things I

36:04

just mentioned but also put a

36:06

great emphasis on just learning to

36:09

be yourself and developing your own

36:11

thing your own sound and it

36:13

may be different from other people

36:16

we have people like Chad Blake

36:18

right we have unique and completely

36:20

original people Show up like that

36:23

and and I think if we

36:25

could have more of that that

36:27

would be I think our world

36:29

would be more entertaining at least

36:32

on the music front. That's a

36:34

good place to stop. I think

36:36

Excellent, ma'am. Thanks. Thanks Bobby. Good

36:39

to good to see you. Thanks

36:41

for having me in my inner

36:43

circle Remember if you have any

36:45

questions or comments you can send

36:48

them to questions at bobbyosinsky.com and

36:50

also learn all about the latest

36:52

in music, audio and production news,

36:55

and find out about openings from

36:57

our latest online classes at bobbyosinsky.com.

36:59

This is Bobbyosinsky. I'll see you

37:02

next time.