0:04

From WNYC Studios, I'm Brian

0:07

Lehrer. This is my daily

0:09

politics podcast. It's Friday, February

0:11

23rd. New

0:15

Jersey Congress member Mikey Sherrill is

0:17

just back from the Munich Security

0:19

Conference and the Middle East. And

0:22

she joins us now. She went

0:24

to Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, in

0:27

addition to Munich, including the Rafah

0:29

crossing at the Egyptian border, Rafah

0:31

being where most Gaza residents have

0:34

concentrated now at Israel's direction, caught

0:36

between being used as human shields

0:38

by Hamas in its

0:41

last military stronghold and Israel's

0:43

willingness to kill thousands of

0:45

civilians to fight Hamas faster.

0:47

Congresswoman Sherrill supports the current negotiation

0:49

said to be making progress toward

0:52

a temporary cease-fire and hostage and

0:54

prisoner exchange and as a Navy

0:57

veteran who worked in the Middle

0:59

East, has a master's degree in global

1:01

history from the prestigious London School of

1:03

Economics and Political Science and is now

1:05

a member of the House Armed Services

1:07

Committee. It could be very interesting to

1:09

hear her take on what might be

1:11

done to save more civilian lives right

1:14

now if the two warring

1:16

parties insist on continuing the fight. Congresswoman

1:19

Sherrill spent nearly 10 years on active

1:21

duty in the Navy, flying

1:23

missions throughout Europe and the Middle

1:25

East. She then attended Georgetown Law

1:27

School and served as a

1:29

Russia policy officer in the US

1:31

Attorney's Office in New Jersey. Congresswoman

1:34

Sherrill is a Democrat who represents

1:36

New Jersey's 11th congressional district, which

1:38

includes parts of Morris, Essex, and

1:41

Passaic counties in North Jersey. Congresswoman,

1:43

thanks for coming on today. Welcome

1:45

back to WNYC. Well,

1:47

thanks so much for having me. What

1:50

did you see at the Rafah crossing? So

1:54

we went to the Rafah crossing. We

1:56

were on the Egyptian side and before

1:58

we went there, we

2:01

stopped at the warehouses where they're

2:03

gathering the food aid from across

2:05

the world, the different support

2:07

and humanitarian aid from across the world. And

2:10

you could sense the frustration

2:12

of the Red Crescent, members

2:14

of the World Food Program,

2:17

the NGOs where they're desperately

2:19

trying to get humanitarian aid

2:21

into Gaza. And it's

2:23

really difficult. I

2:26

would say it felt a bit capricious and

2:28

the decisions being made as to what could

2:30

go in or could not go in. We

2:33

were told that there were boxes that contained

2:35

medicine that were let in, but when they

2:38

put educational material in the boxes, they

2:40

weren't let in because the boxes were

2:42

considered dangerous or dual use. There

2:46

were, we were told refrigerators

2:48

that were going to be let in, but

2:50

the ones that were delivered were slightly different

2:52

models. So they weren't they were turned

2:54

away, those refrigerators. There

2:57

were things like chocolate

2:59

croissants, they said, that went to the border

3:01

and they were told that the people in

3:03

Gaza didn't need chocolate croissants. That

3:07

wasn't kind of a

3:09

dire thing. So it felt as if

3:11

there was a sense

3:15

of, you know, kind

3:18

of a lack

3:20

of understanding of what exactly it was

3:23

that could get across the border. A

3:25

couple trucks were sent away. If

3:29

there was something that was determined

3:31

to be not allowed

3:33

on the truck, the whole truck was

3:35

turned away, not just several pallets. So

3:39

we brought those concerns to

3:42

the Israeli government. And

3:46

from their end, they felt like,

3:49

you know, they were working hard, but all of the

3:52

assistance was, you know, they were very

3:54

concerned it was going directly to Hamas.

3:56

And certainly several, quite a few

3:58

of the trucks were getting looted. at this

4:00

point as they were crossing into

4:02

Gaza. It's

4:06

unclear now that we've defunded UNRWA.

4:09

I think UNRWA is still working because it's still

4:11

funding from other nations, but that's the big concern because

4:14

they are almost the sole

4:16

source of distribution. In

4:19

Gaza, it was unclear without them.

4:21

The UN's Palestinian Relief Agency, UNRWA,

4:23

just so people know. Right,

4:27

and there were members of UNRWA found

4:29

to be participating or supporting October 7th.

4:32

It's a very large organization. And

4:35

so that, I

4:38

think there's a concern now that the US

4:40

is not funding UNRWA. How

4:42

will aid be

4:44

distributed in Gaza right

4:47

now? So

4:53

I guess the message

4:56

I brought to Netanyahu and

4:59

to the government was, look, we've got to do more

5:02

on this food aid.

5:05

We've got to do more on humanitarian

5:07

assistance. We have to do better there.

5:10

And at the same time, I think

5:12

it's very clear that

5:16

the only time we've seen a

5:18

broad release of hostages in

5:21

Gaza has been during the

5:25

last negotiated ceasefire. So all

5:27

of these things to me say, we've

5:29

just really got to get to this

5:31

negotiated ceasefire because we

5:33

need to both stop the fighting

5:36

so we can get humanitarian aid

5:38

in there. There were problems with

5:40

deconfliction, trying to get

5:43

aid to hospitals. I know the Jordanians

5:45

had done some air lifts and felt

5:47

that the people in the

5:49

hospital, it was too dangerous for them to leave

5:51

the hospital area to go get the medicine they

5:53

dropped in. So with

5:55

this, and then when you

5:57

speak to people about the hostages, there's a...

6:00

fear that every single day the

6:02

hostages are being mistreated

6:04

and in fear of more dying so

6:07

that we really have to push hard

6:09

now to make sure we get the

6:11

hostage releases as well of every

6:13

day counts and then every day counts for the

6:15

people who are suffering, the Palestinian

6:17

civilians suffering in Gaza. So

6:20

we've really got to continue the pressure

6:22

and continue the negotiations for the

6:25

temporary ceasefire which I think most of us hope

6:27

if we can get

6:30

on the pathway to getting the hostages

6:32

released the negotiations would have a, I

6:34

don't think they would all be released

6:36

at once but in tranches and

6:38

then get the humanitarian

6:41

aid into Gaza that we

6:43

could hopefully see a longer

6:45

term peace in the

6:47

area. I think everybody would

6:49

understand why Israel would want to vet

6:52

the relief trucks going in for

6:54

supplies that might actually be directed

6:56

at Hamas to help them militarily

6:58

but you were just talking about

7:00

not letting one brand of refrigerator

7:03

or one model of refrigerator go

7:05

in because it wasn't the same

7:07

model that was listed

7:09

on some requisition form and

7:12

chocolate croissants. I don't think Hamas

7:14

is fighting the war with chocolate

7:16

croissants. You call those decisions capricious.

7:20

Why do you think they were made? Is it just

7:22

cruelty or some other reason? I

7:25

think you have young people

7:28

occasionally at the border making these decisions

7:30

because you have more seasoned people fighting

7:32

the war. And

7:35

so I think what

7:39

we need to see from

7:41

the Israelis is a

7:43

better understanding of what can

7:46

come in, what can't, why,

7:48

where. And

7:50

that was something we really pushed is

7:52

look, you

7:54

should be able to provide a list of

7:57

items that are allowed. And

8:00

then, quite frankly, I think

8:02

making sure, as

8:04

we're trying to get stuff in there, that they

8:06

are correctly put on pallets so they can be

8:08

inspected well. And

8:11

understanding too, the

8:13

difficulty, it's

8:16

hard sometimes to get some transparency

8:18

on how this is being distributed. I

8:20

was on the Egyptian side, I was

8:22

not in Gaza, seeing the

8:24

distribution mechanisms. There is a sense by

8:28

the Egyptians that much of the aid is

8:30

being looted. And

8:32

that's a real concern, especially if it goes in

8:35

certain areas. So making sure that the

8:37

aid can actually get to people. And

8:40

then, as you mentioned, when you're talking about

8:43

amputations, and we're hearing that there's

8:45

not enough anesthesia inside

8:48

Gaza, that just tells you the

8:50

privation that people are facing. And

8:52

so that, and the

8:55

real fears that, I

8:59

heard from many people

9:01

who feel very much like

9:06

the hostages could even be being

9:08

tortured now, as

9:11

they're there. So there's this

9:13

real need on both sides, I

9:15

think, for this negotiated ceasefire.

9:19

And I'm very concerned that if we don't

9:21

get that done, and Israel has set a

9:24

deadline of March 9th, which is the day

9:26

before Ramadan, and certainly in speaking

9:29

to people in Amman and Cairo,

9:31

there were big concerns that Ramadan

9:34

could provide a real

9:36

inflection point if we don't get that

9:39

negotiated ceasefire in place before

9:41

Ramadan. That's

9:43

when we've seen some

9:45

hardliners in Israel try to fuse that

9:47

to stoke tensions. We

9:49

were hearing from the Jordanians

9:51

that, people are

9:54

fasting. It's

9:56

their home more, they're watching

9:59

more TV on. more social media, it's just a

10:01

time of heightened tension. And

10:04

so to the extent that we could

10:06

get that that

10:09

temporary ceasefire in place before that, I

10:12

think that would really, that's

10:16

just really, I think a critical piece. And

10:19

from what we were hearing from people

10:22

in the region, both in Cairo and

10:24

Amman and Jerusalem and Tel Aviv,

10:27

people felt like the

10:30

negotiations continue to move ahead and

10:33

continue to move towards a place where

10:35

there should be some agreement. And I hope very

10:37

much that's the case. Since

10:40

you raised humanitarian aid as topic

10:42

number one, and

10:44

you described UNRWA as

10:47

yes, having this problem with some

10:50

people there who participated in or

10:52

somehow supported October 7th, but

10:55

it being a very large organization and

10:59

vital to humanitarian aid,

11:01

food, medicine, et cetera, do

11:04

you think President Biden

11:06

should restore USAID to

11:08

UNRWA and

11:10

let the US continue to fund it while

11:13

those who might support Hamas

11:15

military action are weeded out? We

11:20

have to come up with, I think, a

11:23

way of vetting people because there's no

11:25

sense that the US is going to lift its

11:30

funding hold nor, I

11:35

think would Israelis feel comfortable with that

11:37

if there's a sense that there are

11:39

people within the organization that are gonna

11:41

utilize it to support Hamas. And

11:45

I think that is something that we

11:47

have to figure out. So I don't

11:49

think we figure that out while we

11:51

start supporting UNRWA. I think we need

11:53

to figure it out now so

11:56

that we can vet people appropriately.

12:00

and continue that aid.

12:03

I guess, from what I was

12:05

hearing, the funding for UNRAD runs out sometime next

12:07

month. It's unclear when there are other countries that

12:09

are funding it. So it's still doing work on

12:11

the ground, and

12:15

I think we've been working with the

12:17

World Food Program to try

12:19

to support the work

12:22

they do, but it is really a difficult

12:24

situation, made more difficult, of

12:26

course, by the fact

12:29

that it's hard to engage

12:31

right now on

12:35

the ground in Gaza for outside

12:37

groups because of the ongoing war.

12:39

So I do think we need to focus on how we

12:41

get to a point where

12:46

we can do better

12:48

by the humanitarian aid and the

12:50

distribution. Civilians are dying at

12:52

such a rate the

12:54

way the war is being fought.

12:56

Do you support conditioning

12:59

US military aid to Israel

13:03

on it fighting the war in

13:06

a more strategic way that

13:08

saves more civilian lives? And

13:11

if not, is it just words? I

13:15

think that we should

13:18

understand what our aid is

13:20

being used for. I think

13:22

we have a national security

13:24

memo going forward that is

13:26

going to require states to say

13:31

that they are going to fight in

13:33

line with the international laws of war

13:36

and ensure a humanitarian response.

13:40

So if any aid goes out, Israel

13:42

will have to certify that. And

13:45

so I think that's

13:48

fair to ask that. I mean, I

13:50

think it's important that the United States

13:52

ensure that as we are

13:55

supporting a state in the region. Congresswoman,

13:58

listener question. text message,

14:01

I understand the difficulty in doing

14:03

so, but when will officials like

14:06

Representative Sherrill call for Netanyahu to

14:08

step down? He's never acted in

14:10

good faith and is likely lying

14:13

about supporting a two-state solution. So

14:17

I've been really critical of Netanyahu. I

14:20

might hope for a different leader

14:23

in Israel, but I

14:26

don't vote in Israel. This is not

14:28

my decision. He is the leader

14:30

that is in power right now who we have

14:32

to work with. People

14:36

can sort of wish there was different

14:38

leadership, but we have to deal

14:40

with who the people in Israel have chosen to

14:43

lead or who has formed

14:45

the coalition, even if he's unpopular there.

14:49

But the U.S. can speak, prominent Americans can speak

14:51

more loudly or more softly about that, right? You

14:55

know, we can't. I've said that he's

14:58

not the leader that Israel needs right now.

15:01

Again, he is the leader Israel

15:03

has right now. So you can

15:05

sort of hold two thoughts that, you

15:08

know, gosh, I wish there was someone

15:10

a little more thoughtful in this space, but

15:13

continue to work with the leadership to get him

15:15

in this space you want him in. And

15:18

again, I am, you

15:21

know, I'm sort of in

15:23

a never say die moment here of continuing

15:25

to fight for, I think,

15:30

a different outcome for

15:32

Israelis and Palestinians in the future.

15:36

And I think continuing

15:39

to push Netanyahu

15:43

into a better space. And

15:49

while he is not where I want him to

15:51

be right now, he certainly

15:53

is even sounding different on discussing a

15:55

two-state solution than he was a couple

15:57

weeks ago. And there is also.

16:03

I think that Israelis

16:06

themselves are maybe not

16:11

in a space to be ready to

16:13

move forward. Maybe they are,

16:15

you know, it seemed to me when

16:17

I was there, they were possibly, well,

16:20

Netanyahu might not be popular there. I

16:23

don't think Benny Gantz, for example,

16:25

is very far off what

16:27

he thinks about the prosecution of this war,

16:31

very far off from Netanyahu and what he

16:33

might think the future is. I think Israelis

16:35

are fairly aligned. They

16:39

are very concerned about the

16:42

hostages. The hostage families are

16:44

communicating very strongly with the

16:46

Israeli population. I think people

16:49

are still processing the

16:51

horrors of October 7th. And

16:54

very much somebody said to me

16:56

every day is October 7th to me. If

17:00

you are in that mindset, it's very hard

17:02

to say, okay, we've

17:05

been attacked by Hamas.

17:08

Horrible atrocities have been committed, the likes

17:10

of which, you know,

17:12

I think we rarely hear about. They're

17:18

so hard to even

17:20

believe. And

17:22

you want me now to worry about humanitarian

17:24

aid? All I care about

17:26

is making sure they can never attack Israel

17:28

again and getting the hostages free. So I

17:32

think that's also something that maybe we don't

17:35

quite take into account here. But

17:37

the reason to keep pushing. Did

17:40

you find, because I've heard a lot of reports

17:42

of this in the news, that

17:44

the hostage families are

17:47

pressuring Netanyahu for some kind of

17:49

ceasefire more quickly because they think

17:51

that's the key to getting the

17:53

hostages released and they don't support

17:55

the war the way it's being

17:57

fought? Yes. Yeah,

18:01

so just to, yeah,

18:03

it was very interesting too in speaking

18:06

to some of the Jordanians who've worked

18:08

closely with Israelis for many,

18:10

many years. You know, some of them said

18:12

on a couple occasions, I don't even recognize

18:15

the people I've worked with for years. For

18:18

example, the militaries have tons of mil to

18:20

mil contact. They've eaten with each other, have

18:22

worked together, and they say, you know, I

18:24

don't even recognize people I've known for

18:26

decades now because of

18:28

the trauma of October 7th, but

18:30

to your point, yes, I was

18:33

hearing that. In fact, I was

18:35

hearing that there was some disagreement

18:37

at times between the IDF,

18:40

the Israeli Defense Forces, their

18:42

military, and the

18:44

hostage families because the only

18:46

time we've seen a substantial

18:50

release of the hostages

18:52

was during the last

18:54

negotiated ceasefire. North Jersey

18:56

Congresswoman Mikey Sherrow, thank you very, very

18:58

much for coming on today. Thanks

19:01

so much for having me. Brian

19:08

Lehrer, a daily politics podcast, is an

19:10

excerpt from my live daily radio show,

19:12

The Brian Lehrer Show, on WNYC radio,

19:15

10 a.m. to noon Eastern

19:17

time, if you want to listen live

19:19

at wnyc.org. Thanks

19:21

for listening today. Talk to you next time.