0:08

Pushkin. Just

0:12

a quick note here, you can listen to

0:14

all of the music mentioned in this episode on

0:16

our playlist, which you can find a link to

0:19

in the show notes for licensing

0:21

reasons, each time a song is referenced

0:23

in this episode, you'll hear this

0:26

sound effect all

0:28

right. Enjoy the episode. It's

0:31

hard to believe Andrew Watt is only thirty

0:33

years old. Just consider the artists he's

0:35

worked with over the last five years. Ozzy

0:38

Osbourne, Miley Cyrus, Sam

0:40

Smith, Justin Bieber. He's

0:42

quietly become one of the biggest producers

0:44

in the industry, leading to a nomination

0:47

of the upcoming Grammys for Producer of

0:49

the Year. But

0:52

before Watt started his production journey five

0:54

years ago, he was a songwriter and

0:56

guitar player. This song, Ghost

0:58

in My Head is from a twenty fifteen EP

1:01

he released, and it perfectly captures

1:03

why he's been able to straddle the usually firm

1:05

line between hard rock and pop music.

1:08

It's something he's helped Post Malone do over the

1:10

last few years, and also did from Miley Cyrus

1:12

on her new album Plastic Hearts. In

1:15

this episode, Andrew Watt talks

1:17

to Rick Rubin about getting to start in music

1:19

and turning with the roots, his journey did

1:22

becoming a top tier music producer, and

1:24

about a frightening experience with COVID

1:26

he had in the early days of the pandemic.

1:32

This is broken record liner notes for the

1:34

digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's

1:41

Rick Rubin's conversation with Andrew

1:44

Watt. Let's start with COVID.

1:47

When did you realize you had it? I

1:51

was working with an artist, and

1:53

literally, canceling is not something

1:55

that I do ever, because people's time, as

1:58

you know, right, that's the most important thing.

2:01

Showing up somewhere and being there, especially

2:03

for someone that wants to create with you, It's such a blessing

2:06

to be able to do in the beginning. So I'm not a canceller. And

2:09

I just kind of woke up and I was feeling

2:11

so just fluey

2:14

and not good where I was just like, if I go

2:16

to the studio, I'm gonna maybe get people

2:18

sick. So let me just figure out what's happening. This is March

2:20

fifth, and whenever

2:23

I would get sick before, which thankfully was not

2:25

that much, you start feeling like kind of dream like

2:27

where you're like, okay, something's in me. That's

2:29

kind of making me not like spaced

2:32

out totally. I can't connect

2:34

thoughts the right way and everything. So

2:36

I had a doctor come and see me. Did

2:39

a flu test, You're negative? And

2:41

I'm like, in March were people talking

2:43

about coronavirus? Yet just

2:45

like it's happening in the world, there's

2:47

no cases in lady.

2:50

You didn't know anyone who had it? Nope. But I

2:52

said to this doctor that was

2:54

there, I was like, do I have corona? Everyone's

2:57

having it. I have the symptoms. I'm like, my throat's

2:59

hurting me, I have dry

3:01

cough and all this stuff. It's

3:04

like, there's no way you have corona. It's not

3:06

here in America. Yet they're containing it's containing.

3:08

It's impossible. You have the flu. Do

3:10

a flu test negative, do another one negative,

3:13

Take this uh Tama flu, Take

3:16

these steroids for the swelling, and

3:18

and you know, take advil

3:20

all And so I do everything

3:23

he says, and taking it and taking it. I'm not getting better.

3:26

So I'm like, dude, I have corona. How

3:29

long How long was it before the

3:31

next step? Five days? Right, I'm so

3:34

five days You're doing everything. The doctor said, yes,

3:36

bad flu, taking it not getting

3:38

better, getting better, getting worse, or staying

3:40

the same. Um, just

3:43

like not getting better. Whereas usually

3:46

like a thing would be whatever, so we passed

3:48

it. Normally would pass quickly. This day

3:50

like seven days in around like

3:52

March twelve, where

3:55

I'm like, all right, this Tama flu

3:57

worked and I'm kind of like I

4:00

feel that I'm coming on the other side, right,

4:03

So call everyone, all right, I'm ready to go back

4:05

to work. I'm blah blah. But people are talking about Corona.

4:08

In this time. I find out

4:10

that Lucy and Grange is like really

4:13

sick, right, and there's this party

4:15

that happened. You heard about this the Palm Springs

4:18

for his birthday, and a couple

4:20

of people from London were there and they're getting

4:22

sick. So I'm like, okay, maybe I

4:24

got it. And then I'm better. Two

4:27

days after, I wake

4:29

up in the middle of the night and I'm like hallucinating,

4:32

you know. I'm like, I

4:36

feel like death. I

4:39

can't breathe this.

4:41

I'm like, whoa, what's happening? So I

4:43

called this is worse than it was, Yeah,

4:46

worse than it was. And I call this doctor. I'm like

4:48

this guy was seeing I'm like I gotta get to this blah

4:50

blah, comes over, gives me another flud Testa's like, you don't

4:52

have corona, people don't have it. You're like, over

4:55

and over, take the advill I finally,

4:58

you know, friend of mine

5:01

got me a different doctor who was like

5:04

a really you know, I guess not that this other

5:06

doctor wasn't a good doctor trying to do his

5:08

best, but no one knows anything at

5:10

this point, right, So he gets me this other

5:12

doctor and he's like, you can't breathe. You're

5:15

you know, oxygen's lower. We're going to the hospital.

5:18

So go to the hospital. Which hospital to go

5:20

to? I went to UCLA.

5:23

I'm sitting there. I literally can't

5:26

breathe. It's like a weird feeling. I'm

5:28

twenty nine years old and terrible scary,

5:31

and I don't know what's going on. But I'm like, have you

5:33

ever been in the hospital before. I had been in the hospital

5:36

before, but only for like simple things, never

5:38

like you know, you ever stay in the hospital

5:40

before, No pendix

5:43

out, that kind of stuff, you know, tonsils,

5:47

hernia, so

5:51

um, you

5:53

know, I'm there And finally

5:56

they're like they're giving me a flu test. I'm negative.

5:58

I'm like, can you test me for corona? This other

6:01

great nice doctor comes with me to the hospital.

6:03

He's like there, he's like, test this guy

6:05

for corona. No one can get tests, no one

6:07

can do anything. So I'm

6:11

there at the hospital. Finally

6:13

they take me to get a chest x ray. They

6:16

won't test me for anything. Chest X ray.

6:18

My chest X ray comes back with pneumonia.

6:21

Right, they still will not test

6:23

me for corona. Now is

6:25

everyone around you, all the doctors, everything, We're

6:27

in masks and has matsuits like

6:30

crazy, but they won't test you. Even though

6:32

they will not test me. No matter

6:34

what I'm doing, I'm texting my manager

6:38

help me. I need to get tested. I

6:40

don't feel right like I'm

6:42

at this point where I'm like desperate.

6:45

I never had that feeling before of feeling

6:47

desperate. You know, I'm lucky, I'm blessed.

6:49

I make music. I can't believe it's my job

6:51

to make music and I can kind of do what

6:53

I want. I'm desperate sitting

6:55

here in this hospital and they will not test me

6:58

even though they know I have pneumonia.

7:00

So they're like, sorry, CDC rules,

7:02

we can't do it. We're only testing old people

7:05

because they're gonna die. You're young, You're not gonna

7:07

die even if you have it. You just need to go home.

7:09

I wait hours and hours and hours for this doctor to

7:11

come in, and that's what they tell me. Right. So

7:13

the other doctor that's there is just like with me.

7:16

He's like, you know what, I'm gonna go to my office

7:18

right now. I'm gonna get a flu test. I'm going

7:20

to test you for this thing, and I'm going to write

7:22

on the thing this person I'm

7:24

almost positive he has corona.

7:26

I'm gonna send it to Quest Diagnostics

7:29

and I'm going to see what's

7:31

going on. So he too give me

7:33

a flu test, but wrote I think this person

7:36

is corona, left it on their doorstep,

7:38

and they tested it for corona.

7:40

That's how you found out, and that's how I found out

7:42

I was positive for corona.

7:44

Wow. And you know,

7:47

all the people trying to help me and the

7:50

people there, but it's not their fault. They're

7:52

following regulations by the government. That's

7:54

who's fault. We all know who I You know, I

7:56

could say it was fault. It is to me, and

8:00

you know they're just not handling it the right way. And it's so

8:02

early. Also, now

8:04

that you have this, no one really knows

8:06

what to do if you do have it anyway, there's

8:08

no there's no treatments, no one knows

8:11

nothing. So all we can

8:13

do is read and do this stuff. And

8:15

so I was in bed for

8:18

thirty five days. Wow, how long we in

8:20

the hospital for. Let me go.

8:22

They're like, they didn't even I didn't

8:24

even get my results that night. They're like, go home if

8:26

you have it, just don't see anyone. Like they wouldn't

8:28

test me, did nothing for me. They're like, you have pneumonia.

8:31

You have pneumonia, just rest yea and

8:33

go home. So you stay in bed for you

8:36

stay home for thirty five days. I'm home in bed

8:38

and I'm just feeling awful, hallucinating.

8:40

What type of therapeutics are

8:42

you doing? I had a fever for sixteen days,

8:45

which was you go crazy? How high did

8:47

it go? Up? One oh three was the worst,

8:49

and then it was kind of down. Um, and

8:51

you know, it's really hard for me. I've played guitar,

8:54

you're not so how we met. I came and played guitar

8:56

here. We'll talk about that after. But I

8:58

played guitar every day for my whole

9:02

life, and I'm suddenly not

9:05

wanting to play guitar because it's I

9:07

don't want to play in this negative place,

9:09

in this mindset. And

9:11

then, you know, I think just after

9:14

that and dealing with post COVID stuff

9:16

was tricky, but

9:18

I got back and I think I'm making the best music

9:20

in my life now. So and since

9:22

you've recovered, have you

9:24

had any bad days or has it been pretty

9:26

consistently good. I

9:29

haven't had knock on wood a bad

9:31

day in a really long time. But you

9:33

know, a couple of months ago, if I

9:35

was doing kind of strenuous exercise or

9:37

really pushing myself, I would find myself kind of in

9:39

like a mental fog. And

9:41

that was hard. But what it made me do

9:44

was, you know, and I'm sure I know

9:46

from talking to you before, but I

9:49

was working. I was the producer that was working

9:51

twenty four hours a day, working

9:54

the day with someone working the night with someone else,

9:56

my studios, in my house, working on stuff.

9:58

It's made me change my hours and

10:01

work kind of more in a in a

10:03

more of a scheduled thing. If creativity

10:06

strikes at a different time, then I'll deal with that or use

10:08

it as a decision. But it's not a necessity,

10:11

and so doing that has kind of made me take

10:14

better care of yourself, take better care of myself.

10:16

And if and if I want to exercise, I'll do it

10:18

super early in the morning where it doesn't affect

10:21

my day and I'm not going one thing into the other

10:23

or at nighttime, and just kind of

10:25

finding different ways. I'm not in the gym

10:27

pounding weights, but I never really liked doing

10:29

that anyway, you know, surfing,

10:32

spending time on the water, paddling, doing

10:35

yoga, walkding, doing really long

10:37

walk stuff like that. It's all I had

10:39

to adjust like that, and doing

10:41

those adjustments was not really something

10:43

that affect were in New

10:45

York did you grow up? I grew up in Great

10:48

Nack, originally in Long Island, and

10:51

then funny, I went to NYU

10:53

and lived in Weinstein dorms, just

10:56

like someone else I know a Long

10:58

Island that went

11:00

to New York in New York City

11:02

to try and make music. I didn't want to go to college.

11:05

I wanted to play

11:08

gigs and play and in bars.

11:11

But like I got through with my parents

11:13

of like, okay, if you get I got into NYU,

11:15

so you gotta go went to Weinstein dorms,

11:18

was making music and out of my dorm

11:20

room until I dropped out.

11:22

And how was that? What was your

11:24

first, um professional

11:27

experience in music? My

11:29

first when I like really really

11:32

kind of professional thing besides

11:34

just making records on my own at my house

11:36

and everything was. I

11:39

got to NYU and the

11:41

roots had just started

11:44

there, Jimmy Fallon thing and

11:47

they were doing these amazing jams at the high

11:49

Line Ballroom in New York because

11:51

they were there and they were, you know, wanted to

11:53

do it. And I remember I

11:56

waited outside after

11:59

the show for a long time to talk to quest

12:01

Love. I wanted to talk to him. I was so he's not

12:05

only one of the costs, but how

12:08

knowledgeable is that guy? Just believable on

12:10

everything? And I was a big you know, I loved

12:12

his website, Okay player

12:14

that reviewed music. I would find a lot of music

12:16

on there is it just always searching and he's such

12:18

an audio file you know. So anyway, so I

12:20

talked to him and I was like, hey, man, I want a jam.

12:23

I want to jam with you guys. Because I would

12:25

go to jams all the time. I would go to blues jams

12:27

and bring my guitar and that's really

12:29

how I like, I learned to play

12:32

with other people

12:35

as I had bands, but they my band sucked,

12:37

do you know what I mean? Like I went to these jams

12:40

at the cutting Room and the Bitter End and the

12:42

bottom Line and all these places and would

12:44

just be there with my guitar and I'd get up

12:46

and we'd play little wing for no

12:48

one practiced with each other before or superstition,

12:51

and I'd to learn how to catch horn lines

12:53

and kind of that was like really important to me.

12:55

I would steal a car and drive out

12:57

to Manhattan from Great Neck and do

12:59

that all the time. So

13:01

I asked quest of if I could jam with him,

13:04

and he was like, yeah, I talked to this girl she

13:07

does the jams. He was just kind of like really nice

13:09

and cool. So I got this woman's

13:11

number. Their name was Ginny, and

13:13

I called her probably a thousand

13:15

times and of seventeen at

13:17

this time, and emailed

13:20

her and she would not answer me. So

13:22

I was like, Okay, the jam, it's Thursday.

13:24

It's next Thursday. And I didn't hear am I jamming?

13:27

Am I not? So I bring my guitar and I go

13:29

at sound check time. I'm like I'm gonna just sneak

13:31

into this place and go because quest

13:34

Love will see me. And he said, oh yeah, you can jam. And I

13:36

had a big heart, you know, I follow my heart.

13:38

Of course he's gonna let me do that, right, So

13:40

I sneak in. I might come here for the

13:42

gig I'm playing tonight, Sir.

13:46

Suddenly come right, and people are coming at all and

13:50

quest Love's not there, but that woman Ginny is

13:52

there and she sees me and she's just her face

13:54

goes white, right, and so they're

13:56

like, give me a wrist band. And I'm there and I'm

13:58

waiting by the side of the stage with guitar. All these people

14:00

come. I see Bilal play for the first

14:03

time and he does like a whole lot of love it. I didn't even

14:05

know who Bilal was, and then you know, I'm

14:07

like, oh my god, this guy's incredible, and

14:10

watching Captain Kirk play guitar, who's amazing

14:13

musician. And I'm sitting there and I don't get

14:15

asked the jam obviously, but I

14:17

see this woman Jinny freaking

14:20

out the whole time. She can't handle what's

14:23

going on with the amount of people that are there and the

14:25

guys need drinks and want to smoke weed, and

14:28

she's just too much for her to handle. And so

14:30

my brain, I'm in the music business program

14:33

at NYU, my brain goes, I

14:35

need an internship. Maybe

14:37

this could be my internship. So I was like,

14:39

hey, you know, I know I didn't get the jam

14:41

and stuff like that, but like you seem like you need an intern,

14:44

like you're you have

14:46

too much going on. She was like, I actually do need an intern.

14:48

Here send your resume. So send my resume.

14:50

I get a whole thing, and I get the job of

14:53

being this girl's intern and

14:55

working at Okay Player during the week and helping

14:58

with the jam every week. So

15:00

I'm backstage every time. I bring my guitar

15:02

every single time, and

15:05

I never get asked to play, and I'm annoying

15:07

little kid. But I learned

15:10

how to roll blunt from Black

15:12

Thought and rolling his blunts before it was

15:14

smoking, get drinks for people, and I'm

15:16

around all these amazing musicians,

15:20

like the best musicians,

15:23

and and you know, I get to know

15:25

James Poyser really well, and it gets you

15:27

know, Black Thought and Kirk and

15:30

Quest Love and all the people around in their crew,

15:33

and you know, guys

15:36

from the Fuji's Come and Erica Bad

15:38

Dude Come, and and

15:40

and Balal and all those people, and I'm

15:42

and I'm just meeting all these people, and I'm open

15:45

to a different kind of music than I was listening

15:47

to them, the rock and roll that I was raised

15:49

on. And this

15:52

one night happens where um

15:57

Kirk, his father was really sick and

15:59

couldn't make the gig, and so

16:01

quest looks like, all right, you got your guitar, and

16:03

I didn't have my guitar that so

16:06

I run back to at Weinstein

16:09

Dorms, get my guitar, come back and

16:11

I got to play that night, and I did

16:13

great. It was one of those moments where

16:15

I did great. You know, I understood

16:17

the space and I had been watching how they did

16:19

their stuff every night and did great. And then they

16:21

let me jam a bum there and would

16:23

let me play a bunch of times, and I met amazing

16:26

artists and got kind of my first

16:28

gigs playing for artists, not doing

16:30

my own thing from

16:32

there, and that's kind of how

16:34

it started. What was your first studio gig?

16:37

My first studio gig, I

16:39

was making my own records, and

16:43

then the

16:45

first time I produced I was working

16:47

with this kid, Jared Evan.

16:49

He was signed to Interscope, and

16:53

I was playing guitar for him kind of throw

16:55

all that stuff, and then he would

16:57

always bring me around with him and want me to play guitar.

17:00

And his guy that was producing him was Jimmy Douglas,

17:02

one of the greats, and he

17:05

kind of taught me how to play guitar and the

17:07

studio and double track myself

17:10

and get parts and work

17:12

through stuff. And I would play for a long time

17:14

and then he chopped parts out so that I

17:16

kind of cut my teeth that

17:18

way and then used it to

17:20

make my own records. And then as I was going

17:23

on tour with people, I was on tour

17:25

with an artist named Cody Simpson and Justin

17:28

and then they wanted me to make their records

17:32

and I just would kind

17:34

of did that and moved out to LA

17:37

and made that one album with Glenn

17:39

and in Nashville

17:42

on tape, which was a great experience too.

17:44

I think everyone should make an album on tape at

17:46

some point, just wants to see what that process

17:49

is like. It's a

17:51

fuck ton harder and doesn't

17:53

really make that much of a difference for everyone that

17:55

says it does. It really doesn't. But

17:57

you know, drums sound great on tape, and I'm so

18:00

happy I had the experience. Now we have

18:02

all the plugins that make it sound like tape anyway,

18:04

So why are you going to do that to yourself?

18:09

Yeah, And I came out here and I

18:12

had this song that I wrote with

18:14

a friend of mine named Ali tem Posey, who's

18:17

still my number one collaborator until

18:19

today. We're working together on

18:21

Monday again. We've been working together for nine

18:23

years NonStop, never had an argument.

18:27

And we wrote the song called let Me Love

18:29

You, which was on a guitar and it

18:32

was a folk song, and it

18:34

kind of got passed around the industry

18:36

in that way. Everyone we've heard this song.

18:39

And I played it for Justin because he was a good friend

18:41

of mine and he really wanted the song, and

18:43

then everyone else somehow started cutting the

18:45

song. I didn't understand how people were cutting

18:47

my song without asking me or talking to me. It felt

18:50

wrong. It was like, and I told Justin he

18:52

could do the song already. So I

18:54

kind of had to like get involved

18:56

with that part of the industry, which I never did

18:58

before. I'd start talking to these record

19:00

label guys and these managers

19:03

and these different people and kind of be like no,

19:05

I learned the power of no, kind

19:07

of the first time, which you know you have to say

19:10

and be like, hey, no, this is not actually

19:12

happening. I don't care what you want to

19:14

pay or what like. I promised this

19:16

song to someone else and

19:19

so through a long story, justin

19:21

ended up singing the song. And that was my first like

19:23

big hit song and

19:26

it was such a cool experience

19:29

to I didn't know that it

19:31

was going to be that. I just everyone wanted

19:33

the song for a reason and it

19:36

was amazing. So like the first time

19:38

I went to one of his shows and I saw him

19:40

play that song and then everyone

19:43

in the crowd was singing, held the mic out and it

19:45

was words I wrote about, like hurt

19:47

and pain I had, but to them it was the

19:49

happiest thing ever. And it was just

19:51

like in a surreal, amazing

19:54

experience. And I think it's

19:56

when you see that happened, you want to

19:58

do that again and again and again. And

20:01

what was the next one? The

20:04

next one after that

20:06

was a Selena Gomez song that she

20:09

did with Kigo, which was another song

20:11

that was on the guitar. It's called it ain't

20:13

me. Did you write it for her? You just wrote it

20:15

and then she heard it. I just wrote it and played

20:17

it for her because we were friendly, and

20:21

she loved it and cut it kind of instantly.

20:24

So many of my songs that you

20:27

know became big songs have these

20:29

insane long stories

20:31

of me flying to Japan for twenty

20:34

four hours and doing all this stuff that I had

20:36

to do to get the record across the finish line,

20:38

which I'm sure you have crazy getting the

20:40

Getting the song sometimes is the easiest

20:43

part, and getting the artist to actually

20:45

do the song is really hard. Sometimes

20:48

it doesn't make sense, but it is. That

20:51

was the easiest song I ever had, that one.

20:54

She sang the song and made her

20:56

tweaks to it, and she sounded amazing

20:58

on it, and I did the production with I Go, and it kind of

21:00

just came out two months later, and

21:03

so that one was

21:04

was was awesome. We'll

21:07

be right back with more from Andrew Watt after

21:09

the break. We're

21:14

back with more from Andrew Watt and Rick Rubin

21:16

talking about their mutual friend drummer

21:19

of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Chad Smith.

21:21

What was the first session you ever played on with Chad

21:25

Chad came to play

21:28

on I was when I was signed

21:31

to Republic Records as a

21:33

rock artist and kind of doing that.

21:35

He came and played on

21:37

one of my a couple of my songs.

21:40

I had met him. I was in that band with Glenn Hughes

21:42

and Jason Bonham back in the day, and

21:45

I met Chad through that and we just

21:47

kind of became tight.

21:49

And as you know, Chad loves

21:51

music more than literally anything in the world. And

21:54

we'll actually play on anything and

21:57

it'll be great, and it will be amazing and

21:59

in any style. And it's so funny. Chad's

22:01

kid is just permanently set up at my house, old gretch

22:04

kid he has, and he's like the house drummer.

22:06

I mean, he plays on everything that we do.

22:10

So we did that and we just kind of became really

22:12

close. And that Blood Sugar

22:14

album was like my DNA

22:16

as a musician when I was learning how

22:19

to play all these different instruments and the

22:21

kids that I was playing with didn't want to

22:23

play as much as to me, So I just learned everyone's instrument

22:25

and I learned how to play that in that album

22:28

kind of on every instrument. So first time

22:30

I sat down to play with Chad. My

22:32

instincts were kind of similar to his because

22:35

that's where my DNA was kind

22:37

of playing. And even now when when

22:39

we're making an Ausie album or something, he does

22:41

a fill and I'm playing a lick, it's

22:44

a same. It's weird we have.

22:46

We have really similar instincts, which

22:49

is so cool. He told me another

22:51

amazing story. I'm I'm breaking

22:53

him out because kind of I want to know your

22:56

answers to this kind of stuff. You

22:59

know, we're talking I think

23:01

like a year and a half ago, just about

23:05

demos of things, and I don't

23:07

remember how exactly it came up, but he played me the demo

23:09

of Californiacation and

23:12

the music under that song

23:15

is completely different music. It's

23:17

like, couldn't be anymore any more

23:20

different, But the top line is

23:22

the same, exactly the same, the same

23:24

words, the same spacing, the same amount of

23:26

verse to the chorus line. And

23:29

he was like, you know, this music

23:33

was not right. It wasn't you know, not

23:35

that it wasn't that it was good or bad. It just

23:37

wasn't right and it wasn't working. But you pushed

23:39

them really hard to like go and make

23:42

different music for this amazing

23:44

top line and then it's like, I

23:46

think it's one of their biggest songs. How

23:49

does that process work for you? I honestly

23:51

don't remember that happening. I believe it did happen,

23:53

but I don't think that it was my

23:56

idea. I have a feeling as

23:58

I remember it, and again I don't remember. Brit Well, we

24:02

had the song and then John

24:04

came in one day and he said, I think I have a different

24:06

way to play the song that's better

24:08

because the way it typically works is

24:11

the band works on music and

24:13

then Anthony gets inspired by the music he hears,

24:15

and then he writes the melody and then the words,

24:18

and he had gone through that phase,

24:20

wrote the melody in the words to the music the

24:22

existing music, and then John heard the

24:24

melody in the words and said, hmm, I

24:27

think there's better music, and then he

24:30

as I remember it, John just had the idea

24:32

to present a different version and

24:35

we all liked it better. Yeah.

24:37

I mean, I think that's the only time that particular

24:40

thing happened with them. It's amazing

24:42

to not to a

24:44

lot of people would just be like, all right, this one's not working. Like an

24:46

A becomes a C and just

24:48

just leave it, throw it. How many great songs

24:50

are there that you have, you know, like

24:53

that, but to like work something to

24:55

the bone or repurpose it

24:57

like that, and then it's becomes the comes

25:00

the album. Always we would always try

25:02

to consider

25:05

every possibility to make every song as good

25:07

as it could be. That takes patience.

25:10

Absolutely, That's the whole job

25:12

really is sitting and

25:14

waiting and going through and not

25:16

making trying options, never

25:19

thinking you know how it's supposed to go. If

25:22

you think you know how it's supposed to go, it'll

25:25

only be as good as you can imagine,

25:27

Whereas when you watch it happen,

25:30

you're surprised and blown away by

25:32

how much better it can be than what you

25:34

originally imagine. Yeah, and people get

25:36

frustrated in that process sometimes, and

25:39

that's a balancing act as well. Right, somebody

25:41

was like, no, I like it like someone that's

25:43

unwilling, and I that one

25:45

of the great Rick advice sessions I had with

25:47

you was I had an artist that was unwilling

25:50

to do what I really

25:52

really felt strongly was like amazing,

25:55

And you told me you can push so far, but

25:57

at the end of the day, you got to let the artist

26:00

that's earned their right make the decision, you

26:02

know, So get to that crossroad sometimes where if

26:04

they didn't want to change that song, it would have just been what it

26:06

but what it was. Yeah, But hopefully

26:09

then there's a situation where someone does listen

26:11

and does accept the change and it's positive.

26:14

Yeah, and they're also can't None

26:16

of us are rite all the time either, totally. You know,

26:18

it's like we don't know. We think, we

26:20

have our opinion, we share our opinion, and then

26:23

we see you know, I passed on

26:25

working with Guns n' Roses, I passed on working with

26:27

Jane's Addiction. You know, I passed on working

26:29

with a lot of people because I just when

26:32

I saw it, I didn't hear it at first. Yeah,

26:34

And maybe that's what's supposed

26:37

to happen, because had I made Appetite

26:39

for Destruction, it might have been a very

26:42

different album, and maybe it wouldn't have been as good,

26:44

you know, maybe it wouldn't have been what it needed to

26:46

be. So who knows, you

26:48

know, who knows. There's so much about the

26:50

process that's unknown, and

26:52

we just have to ride it and

26:55

be open to the possibility of it being

26:57

as good as it could be, and would I try

26:59

to sing jest with the artist I work with

27:01

is if we don't both

27:04

love it at the end, then it's

27:06

not as good as it could be. So

27:08

in both cases, so if you feel strongly

27:11

about it and the artist doesn't like it, that

27:13

means it's not there yet. And

27:15

if they like a different version and you don't like

27:17

it yet, it's still not done. It

27:19

means there's you haven't really cracked

27:21

the code. Because when you really cracked the code,

27:24

it's obvious to everyone. You couldn't

27:26

imagine it any other way. Yeah, this is it,

27:28

this is the record. Yeah. So

27:30

it's just the patience of going through that process.

27:33

It's amazing. Yeah. I had an experience

27:35

the other day. I won't mention the name of the artist, but with

27:39

a producer and an artist and

27:42

they asked my opinion. I gave my opinion, and the producer

27:44

got really defensive and it's like, oh, you

27:46

know, I really believe in this direction that we're

27:48

going. It's like, okay, it's

27:50

like it's fine. I'm just telling you how it

27:52

strikes me. And at least experiment

27:56

with the suggestion and see if anything good

27:58

comes from it. You never know. Sometimes does sometimes

28:00

doesn't. Yeah, all you can do is share

28:02

your taste. Yeah, it's it's

28:05

all taste, and there's no right or wrong

28:07

taste. You know, everyone has

28:09

their own. How do you

28:11

like working with other producers? Like being

28:14

involved? Kind of like that. It's fine.

28:16

I'm not attached to anything, so I

28:18

can. I'm very comfortable

28:20

sharing what I like and what I don't. Um.

28:24

I'll give any suggestions of possible

28:26

solutions, but I'm

28:28

also open to hearing any possible solutions

28:31

and sharing what I think works best. UM.

28:34

A lot of people also, you know, you

28:37

have you have a myth behind you, which

28:39

is so cool and awesome. Nothing cooler than

28:41

that. UM. And you

28:44

know, I just wanted to share my experience.

28:46

I got to work with you once in the studio

28:50

and we were you

28:52

were making a Justin Bieber album, UM,

28:55

which that stuff was killing and

28:57

I'd love to hear it one day if it's still this

29:00

anywhere on

29:02

a drive somewhere incredible And I remember,

29:05

you know, So I got a phone call from

29:07

Justin um

29:10

And who who i'd been playing with him

29:12

was on tour with for a while, and

29:14

he was just like, hey, Andy, what are you doing? Can

29:16

you come down to the studio. I'm making this

29:18

I'm making this album. I want you to play guitar. And

29:21

I was like, yeah, of course, you know that's

29:23

awesome. Like where are you doing And he's like, oh, I'm making it with Rick

29:26

Rubin at Changer Law and I was like, what

29:28

you know. I just got

29:30

in the uber came all the way

29:32

out. I was like, let's go, let's go, let's go,

29:35

and I and I got to I went

29:37

into that room that we're looking at right there, and

29:40

um, Chris Dave was on drums,

29:42

who's no one better than

29:44

him? And these other a bunch of other

29:46

amazing musicians, great bass player, great

29:49

keyboard player. Um, and

29:52

I was the worst musician in the room

29:54

by far, which

29:57

you know, it's my first time in front of you. Justin's

30:00

put went out on alone. He's like, let me bring

30:02

my guy. You know, I don't know you. I know there was

30:04

another guitar player on the session. I don't know what happened

30:06

to him, But for whatever reason,

30:09

I got brought out there and I got

30:11

thrown into the fire. And

30:13

you had two choices. You

30:15

either you know, suck

30:18

and can't do the job, where you try and rise

30:21

and that was like such a challenge

30:24

as a musician for me in the

30:26

best way, and

30:28

you did the coolest thing, which I

30:32

do constantly as I'm making music now. Is kind

30:34

of like I think you kind of I think if I

30:36

look back on it, the reason why I was there is

30:38

because, like I got like Todd how to produce

30:41

fire. You in that moment where

30:44

you were playing us all this amazing music,

30:46

You're almost like djaying for us. You're

30:48

playing us because I remember you wanted to from

30:50

what I remember, make stuff with Justin. That was

30:52

like he kept saying, I want to make my thriller. I

30:54

want to make my thriller, right, Like that's what he was saying

30:56

in that time. And so you're

30:59

playing us all this amazing music, you

31:01

know, Hall of Notes and Cheek

31:03

and other Nile produce

31:06

stuff and some Michael

31:08

stuff and all different, all different

31:10

things, and you

31:12

told us as a band, You're like, okay, learn

31:14

this, play along to this. So we had like

31:17

about five or ten minutes to learn

31:19

what we're hearing. And I'm like the keyboard

31:21

players right there, I'm like, what's the course, what's

31:23

the course? What's the course? Like I'm just like I'm holding

31:25

on but like trying to fit in. And

31:29

we learned the song and then you said, okay,

31:32

now played it in a different key. So now we

31:34

start playing in a different key. And then you say, okay,

31:36

now play it at this tempo. So then we start playing at

31:38

a different tempo. And then you said, okay, now

31:40

don't play it at all. Just play something

31:43

that's like it. That's not it, but

31:45

that's like it, that feels like it, And we would start

31:47

doing that, and then the red button would get pressed

31:50

and it was such a good

31:52

exercise in like, you know,

31:55

yeah, there's the times where you

31:57

write a riff that is in your heart

32:00

or whatever and it comes and it's like, but you have

32:02

a bunch of musicians in a room, and to

32:04

guide us into making

32:06

music that would be appropriate

32:09

for what you wanted to make with him was such

32:11

a such a cool experience. And then

32:13

the thing I was really amazing was

32:16

you would come into the room

32:18

and you only you didn't talk to us on the talkback.

32:21

You only talk to us if we were doing

32:23

something that you didn't like. If we were

32:25

doing something that you liked, we weren't. We

32:28

weren't sculpted. I

32:30

just kept playing the part that I was doing over and over

32:32

again. And if you wanted Chris to change your pattern,

32:34

you kind of took an ear off him and told him, or if you wanted

32:36

me to do something, you kind of told me. And that was

32:38

such like a hands on, like amazing

32:42

exercise. And I

32:44

don't remember what the music sounded like because

32:46

it was so long ago, but it

32:49

was incredible. And I've made so much of my

32:51

music exactly like that

32:54

music that's out from there, and it was you

32:56

know, when was the first time you did that? What was

32:58

that might have been the first time? Honestly,

33:01

you remember the process kind of going. I

33:04

remember the process exactly. It's because usually

33:07

when I go into the studio, we go into the student

33:09

Typically we go into the studio with songs

33:11

already written. I don't usually go into

33:13

the studio with a blank slate

33:16

to make something. Justin wanted to

33:18

go in with more of a blank slate, which was not

33:20

the way I normally work, but I'm down

33:22

to try whatever. So this was

33:24

a way to jump start the

33:26

process, to try to find

33:29

grooves or fields or

33:31

directions, starting points and

33:34

then hopefully that would inspire a vocal idea

33:36

and which when he was up for doing. It was incredible

33:40

every time, amazing, like ridiculous

33:42

right over there, ridiculous.

33:45

So then the vocal idea would happen, and Matt

33:47

would kind of determine what's supposed to

33:49

happen next, you know, because now we sort of have the

33:53

maybe not a whole song, but a

33:55

part of a song, like usually the key

33:58

part of the song, maybe not the hook

34:01

or sometimes just the hook, but but like

34:03

a key component. And Mean's

34:05

like, okay, if this is this part

34:07

what naturally wants to happen next, and you try

34:10

all the different variations and see where

34:12

it goes. It's amazing. People don't realize how unbelievable

34:14

of a musician he really is, like as a singer,

34:16

as a drummer, as a piano player, like he's it's

34:18

not just like part of the show. I mean, he's really

34:21

is super time gifted like that. And I think he really

34:23

enjoyed that process so much. You

34:25

know, I want to hear those tapes at

34:28

some point. There's some good stuff

34:30

on there. Yeah. Do you think of

34:32

yourself more now as a songwriter, producer

34:35

or a guitar player? I

34:40

don't know. Um, I think a

34:42

producer would

34:45

you say you spend most of your time in producer

34:47

mode. Yes, yeah, makes sense. One

34:50

thing that I was thinking about the other day

34:53

was I just made this amazing

34:56

album with Miley Cyrus, which I'm so

34:58

excited about. It's only her

35:01

doing her like rock thing and singing,

35:03

and the songs are totally have you

35:06

know, their hookie and

35:08

poppy and where they need to be and stuff. But it's

35:10

her really in her ross

35:12

form. And I

35:14

was closing my eyes the other day as I was

35:17

making music with her headphones on because my

35:19

studio we have it kind of all open,

35:22

and I was closing my eyes and I was listening to this

35:24

incredible voice come out, and I'm

35:26

like, I am so lucky to

35:29

like listen to the human voice. The human

35:31

voice is like the most incredible

35:34

because you hear people play great guitar

35:36

part that could message I'm sure Mike

35:39

Campbell got your heartstrings going many

35:41

times before, or a great you know,

35:43

keyboard part, or a great riff. But

35:45

like, the human voice is the only thing where you

35:47

can take melody and attach lyrics to it and

35:49

evoke emotion in a different way. And

35:52

like you're sitting there understanding

35:55

you're you're guiding this person to get

35:58

the vocal that's gonna be it's

36:00

on record that everyone hears and is

36:02

the emotion strong enough, And it's a very cathartic

36:04

experience for me, like every time, And

36:07

you know, I'm so lucky to work with such

36:10

a great singer, especially like her, And

36:13

I just had this moment where I've just felt like really

36:15

blessed the other day when I was just listening

36:17

to the vocal of a song that I think is

36:19

so special and it comes to life. Is

36:23

that your favorite part of producing when

36:25

you do the vocal? No,

36:27

But I think for me the most exciting

36:29

part is when it's

36:34

it goes from ordinary to unusual,

36:37

like like in the moment when everybody's

36:39

playing and it's pretty good, it's pretty

36:41

good, and it's pretty good, and then all of a sudden something

36:43

happens, and it can be a tiny thing, and

36:46

all of a sudden it shifts into this

36:49

like you've never heard anything that's good before,

36:51

and you don't know why. You know, you don't

36:53

know why what. You don't know what changed

36:56

between the take before and mistake, or

36:59

between the last thirty seconds and this

37:01

thirty seconds, but something aligns

37:04

and that feeling of like

37:10

it's like a harmonic convergence that

37:12

happens, and that's I'm

37:15

just waiting for that. That's what I'm wish And

37:18

you know it when you hear it, you can't

37:20

you can't miss it, you know. I got to

37:22

hang with Nile Rogers recently,

37:24

who's one of the great records, and

37:27

he said something similar to what you just said,

37:30

where his process.

37:32

I loved to know everyone's process because everyone's

37:34

different. He

37:37

when he was recording with shek all the time, they'd

37:40

record a bunch of takes and they

37:42

would cut out the third course

37:44

and move it to the first chorse because everyone

37:46

was playing better by then. They knew the song

37:49

and it was exciting and they got through the thing,

37:51

and he would just take the third course and make it the

37:53

first course. And like they would have

37:55

to be playing as good as that for him

37:57

to do it. But that was like a trick that like always

38:00

worked. Yeah, And if you think about like good

38:02

times, that's like later in the song,

38:04

but you hear it at the top, it's

38:06

really weird. We would do the same sometimes, or sometimes

38:09

we would repeat a section of the

38:11

song just because this

38:13

one particular version of the verse was never

38:16

as good as that. So that became the first hand

38:18

second verse just because just

38:21

because so you're sitting

38:23

in your dorm at NYU

38:26

and you're you're making beats, right, You're

38:28

what are you using an MPC or and

38:32

you are listening to when the levee breaks,

38:35

and you're like, these drums are

38:38

out of control? How do you make the

38:40

decision to be like, I'm gonna

38:42

this is, I'm gonna loop this, I'm gonna show

38:44

this to someone, and these should be the drums

38:46

for you know, one of the best Beastie Boys

38:48

songs ever. Like, what was that process? Do

38:52

you remember? Or I would

38:54

say I was in general always making

38:56

beats, djaying, listening to

38:58

records in djaying and looking

39:01

for opportunities too. And there

39:03

was no such thing as sampling then, so it was more

39:05

like things to either

39:08

scratch in or like

39:10

a breakbeat where you could play, you know, on two

39:12

turntables and play a little section back and

39:14

forth. So

39:16

it was just an interesting idea to use something like when

39:18

Levy breaks as a breakbeat, because most people

39:20

were making breakbeats out of more R and B records.

39:23

Yeah, and when you when

39:25

Paul's Boutique comes out and samplings

39:28

changed forever. Are you like, fuck,

39:30

how am I gonna make records now? No? I just thought it

39:32

was the greatest thing I ever heard. I never thought I never

39:36

I never thought about

39:38

how it affected me. I just thought about,

39:40

this is great music, and I want to listen to this. I

39:42

remember when I first heard

39:45

Paul's boutique, was before it came out, and I was with Chuck

39:47

d and we were at the Mandrean Hotel in

39:51

la and we listened to it together and

39:53

both of us said, this is the future hip hop.

39:55

This is the greatest thing we ever heard. Were so excited.

39:58

We loved it. We loved

40:00

it. We'll be right back with more from Andrew

40:02

Watt after the break. We're

40:08

back with more from Andrew Watt and Rick Rubin.

40:11

What was I what's your first memory

40:13

of music in your life? First thing you remember

40:16

any experience in music? I

40:23

went to go see George Benson when I was like six

40:26

with my parents at like a Westbury

40:28

music fair. Yes, that would be the place you'd

40:30

see George Benson at the Westbury Music

40:32

Fair. And I remember

40:35

him. I didn't playing any instruments at this point,

40:37

but I remember him singing and playing his guitar

40:40

solos at the same time,

40:42

and being like my mind was

40:44

just like blown, like how this

40:46

guy is not I mean now reflecting on it's

40:48

like he could how

40:50

many good, great guitar players have you seen just play the most

40:52

melodic things you've ever seen,

40:55

but he could sing it at the same time,

40:57

and that two parts of his brain completely

41:00

working together. Just that was like

41:02

one of the first things that I ever

41:04

remember what kind

41:06

of music was playing in your house growing up? My

41:10

dad played me The Beatles was the

41:13

number one thing, but Sabbath and

41:15

Zeppelin and The Who, and

41:18

my mom was listening to Stevie Wonder

41:20

and George Michael and Neil Young

41:23

and just all that stuff. And my dad's

41:25

final collection was like a huge thing for me. I

41:27

remember finding like the All Things Must Pass

41:29

album super young and playing

41:32

that as like, you know, you

41:34

go through the Beatles and then you get

41:36

the Beatles spinoffs. That to

41:38

me is the best of the Beatles spinoffs

41:41

because he had those songs for so long and

41:43

it was kind of holding him back. But

41:46

yeah, all that stuff just listen

41:48

to. And then my brother, who

41:51

was the one that was like Alison Chain's

41:53

Unplugged in Pearl Jam, Blood Sugar

41:55

Sex five years,

41:57

five years so I'm turning thirty on Tuesday. Actually

42:00

Coagulations, Yeah, Libra Libra gang.

42:04

Yeah, what was the first music that you felt like?

42:06

Was your music as a as a kid?

42:09

Not your older brothers music, not

42:11

your parents music, but your music. So

42:15

funny, man, it was like one of the things I want to talk to

42:17

about. But like I went to Sam Goody and

42:20

I remember being like eight years

42:23

old, kind of nine years

42:25

old, and my mom would just leave me in there and go and

42:27

do stuff. And I

42:31

was talking to the guy at

42:33

the store. I was like, I want to buy these some

42:35

CDs. I have money for three CDs,

42:38

and he was showing me stuff and asking me about

42:40

what I liked. And the three CDs he gave me were

42:43

bloods Up in the One, Appetite

42:47

for Destruction by Guns and Roses and

42:50

Blood Sugar Sex Magic by the Red Chili

42:52

Peppers, which that album

42:54

affected me the most. Really,

42:56

Yeah, it was because

43:00

at the time that's like a true melding

43:02

of genres. Zeppelin

43:05

is my favorite band ever, you

43:08

know, and obviously Guns

43:10

and Roses amazing and I both

43:12

those albums are in my DNA for sure. But

43:15

the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album was

43:18

like I had to know every crevice

43:20

of that and it was so cool to hear rap and

43:22

rock and funk and all of

43:24

those different things kind of coming together

43:27

and it really

43:30

just had a super profound

43:32

effect on me. I have no idea.

43:34

Yeah, nice, Yeah. And then you know,

43:37

being becoming so close with Chad kind

43:39

of working with

43:41

him and that's how we met. We did session together

43:43

and then we became so close. And then obviously

43:46

he was you know, gracious

43:48

enough to bring me around the other guys and they've all

43:50

become friends and are I know those are

43:52

your that's your family. They're the most special

43:54

group of people that you can

43:56

imagine. But you

43:58

know, it's this weird thing where you could on your idols

44:00

become your friends and that's such

44:03

a trip. You know. That's where I feel

44:05

like the simulation is like a real thing.

44:07

You know. I found myself in Egypt

44:10

with them when they played at the Pyramids

44:13

last year, and I'm like getting

44:16

I'm so lucky to like not

44:18

only go and watch them play, but they

44:20

let me come on this amazing adventure

44:23

of like riding camels and they shut down

44:25

the Pyramids and I was like they're

44:27

taking in that culture of

44:30

like privately looking at these things

44:32

that are older than time and that

44:34

no one really knows how they got there. And I

44:36

was just like, you know what, maybe this whole life

44:38

thing is not really a real thing because you're not

44:40

supposed to do this. You know, you're not supposed

44:42

to like get these experiences. It's

44:45

miraculous. I'm sure you had those moments.

44:47

Absolutely, It's unbelievable. Happens.

44:50

It happens all the time, and I still every day

44:52

I can't believe when it happens, happened yesterday,

44:55

happened, yes what happened yesterday? Just

44:57

had a long conversation with Bruce Springsteen

45:00

that was mind blowing and it was just a trip.

45:02

Yeah real. I heard this

45:04

awesome story of

45:08

Jimmy was producing

45:10

that album Born to Run, and

45:14

he brought down like the mix mixes

45:17

back to his dad's house in

45:20

and he had him on cassette.

45:23

It's like cassette at that time, and he went

45:25

to sleep. He was like late. They worked on the mixes all

45:27

night and he got up in the morning

45:29

to like go get it and make sure it's still sounded good in the morning.

45:31

Gives ears a break and the cassette was gone. He's

45:35

like, where the fuck are these mixes?

45:38

Like, oh my god, and freaking

45:40

out calls his dad, and his dad's like on

45:42

the construction site that he works on. He's

45:45

like, oh my god, Jimmy, this is the best

45:47

thing you've ever done. The guys on the site

45:50

they love it. It's amazing. He's

45:52

like, Dad, bring the mixes home. You don't

45:54

understand. You gotta bring the mixes home. And he never

45:56

told Bruce that story until like, really

45:58

really recently. And but

46:01

if you think about it, the working class

46:03

guy on the construction site heard

46:05

this stuff before anyone else.

46:07

There's kind of nothing more that Bruce would have. I

46:10

don't know Bruce at all, but I just know

46:12

what I've heard, and I think he

46:14

would probably really like that absolutely.

46:17

So I just love that story. I love those stories

46:19

behind the record. And

46:21

then you know, I've I got the

46:24

ultimate honor, which you've had

46:26

a bunch of times of making

46:28

an Aussie album last year, which

46:31

you know, you asked me what the first thing my dad played

46:33

me Sabbath and and like

46:36

you've spent time with that guy was amazing. Is

46:38

he not the greatest, kindest,

46:41

super funny, the funniest person

46:43

ever, you know. He told me. He told

46:45

me a story like he went to hang out with you one

46:47

night after he was drinking and he's like saying you

46:50

he did, he did. I got an entire black

46:53

Sabbath concert in

46:55

my living room as the sun was coming up

46:59

from from a high and drunk.

47:01

Azzi was unbelievable. Did you

47:03

put on the records and he's singing along? Yes?

47:06

So I found out with him that

47:08

if I start any of his songs,

47:12

go automatically sing along. So for

47:14

me, as like, I'm such a Sabbathan,

47:16

I'll just like the other day, we're in the middle of writing.

47:19

We're doing another album and

47:22

I started playing sweet Leaf and he just sang the whole

47:24

song. It's like, what else do you want out

47:26

of life? Just listen to Azzi singing. He still loves

47:28

his songs. He's been singing the same songs

47:31

for fifty years and he can still do it. It's amazing.

47:34

It's amazing for me, the coolest that,

47:36

you know, working

47:39

with him. I didn't want

47:41

to. I didn't I would like, almost didn't want

47:43

to do it. I made the song with him in post I

47:46

had like the idea to put them together

47:48

because Post loves Azzi so much.

47:51

And I had taken Post to the Rainbow

47:54

Bar and grill because he just like,

47:56

where can I drink in la work and listen to rock And

47:58

I'm like, there's actually the pace where

48:00

you want to be. I brought him the Rainbow. Then he started.

48:02

He was like, he's the new Lemmy over there, you know know what I

48:04

mean, He's there every night, that's where he drinks.

48:07

Probably not anymore with all this going on, but that's where

48:09

he was, and he

48:11

bought I wasn't there, but he bought

48:13

an azzy photo off the wall

48:16

there and he has the studio

48:18

that he records in that's right down

48:20

sunset from the Rainbow. So he's

48:23

walking down sunset with the photo

48:25

of Azzi a beer in his hand like hammered

48:27

post malone, And that visual

48:29

in my head made me, for whatever reason,

48:31

be like Post an Azzi have to do a song together.

48:34

If he could have got a picture of him walking along with

48:36

the Azzi photo, that would have been the perfect cover for

48:38

the same, the best, the best ever. And

48:42

so yeah, we did that whole song,

48:44

which was so much fun for me. And then he wanted

48:46

to make an album, and I don't want

48:48

to make like a

48:51

shitty Azzi album because his stuff is

48:53

so good. Like so, you know, Duff

48:55

and Chad played on the album, which you know

48:57

both those guys as well, and they're amazing

49:00

and really helped make it authentic. But

49:02

the moment for me that it was real

49:05

was like Azzi sang and then he doubled

49:07

his voice. Yeah, and when he doubles his voice,

49:09

it sounds like asion record. It's

49:12

crazy. I've never experienced that before because

49:14

usually you want like a double at least for me to

49:16

be like as close to each

49:19

other as possible, and with him,

49:21

the more different it is, the cooler

49:23

it is. And it makes one that's clearly

49:25

out of tune automatically not be out of tune.

49:28

It's like one plus one equals two. I've

49:30

never experienced it before. Are

49:33

you still listening to music all the time. I

49:35

listened to music all the time, but my default

49:38

listening is not music that I would

49:40

ever work on. I probably

49:42

listened to more classical and jazz now,

49:45

just because I want a relief from you know,

49:48

I spend so many hours in the recording

49:50

studio and over so many years that my

49:54

enjoyment. Listening tends to be a palette

49:57

cleanser from what I'm working on. Yeah,

49:59

I don't. I don't find myself listening to a

50:01

lot of music anymore. Like in the car, I

50:04

love silence because I like

50:06

podcasts. I listen to people talking. Yeah,

50:09

that that too, interviews or lectures.

50:12

I really like learning stuff. So you're hearing so much

50:14

music and loud music all the time, and

50:17

it's like almost like you want to save your ears to

50:19

be able to Do you listen for fun or

50:21

do you listen to see what's happening both.

50:28

The other night, I was, you

50:31

know, we all go through our personal journeys.

50:34

I was feeling a bit sad, and

50:37

I you know why, Do I know why

50:39

I was feeling sad? Yeah, I know why I was feeling

50:41

sad. But I

50:44

was kind of going through a thing where

50:46

I realized whatever, you know, you

50:48

make decisions and then there's outcomes and

50:50

you have to live with that kind of stuff. So

50:53

so I came home

50:55

and I there's a

50:57

package for me my house. Opened

50:59

it up and Ozzie had sent

51:01

me the fiftieth anniversary A Paranoid.

51:05

The vinyl had just come out, and

51:08

I opened it up, great packaging, they

51:10

know what they're doing with that stuff. And

51:13

in it were two live bootlegs

51:16

concerts. One of them was from Zurich.

51:20

So I popped it in on my turntable

51:22

and I just sat on my floor and I just turned

51:24

it up loud and I just listened

51:26

to this Sabbath live

51:29

show and it's like before Paranoid

51:32

came out, and the words are different,

51:34

but they're basically playing down Paranoid

51:36

and it's like they're on fire.

51:39

And I just couldn't stop smiling. It didn't

51:41

matter what was going on.

51:44

This music, it just

51:46

affects me in such a way

51:48

it's amazing. So listening to that vinyl

51:51

was just like a really good

51:54

It was the first time I like sat and listened to a

51:56

record through all the way and they flipped

51:58

it and just listen, and I

52:00

was like, I gotta go back and just do

52:03

that more. It wasn't like the pressure of you

52:05

saying, like you want to hear what's happening, you know.

52:08

I listened every Friday, New Music Friday

52:10

comes out on Spotify, and that's you know,

52:12

they do their best to give

52:15

you a bunch of songs that are

52:17

coming out from artists

52:19

that they you know, whoever is choosing that

52:21

they whether they're relevant or it's just cool

52:23

or whatever it is. I kind of skimmed through

52:25

that. I think usually once a week

52:28

or I get it later. What percentage of those things to

52:30

end up liking? Very few? Because

52:35

I don't know listen to old

52:37

stuff when I when I do listen and listen

52:39

to very old, very old music.

52:42

But I just

52:44

justin and just put out a new song with Benny

52:46

Blanco that I thought was amazing and understated

52:49

and really cool instead of overproduced

52:52

and the opposite. I just heard that on

52:54

Friday, which I thought was awesome and amazing.

52:59

Yeah, I'm trying to think when the last

53:01

time I.

53:04

I don't really listen to that many. I'll

53:07

listen for like a second, just like I just want to like

53:09

see what's going on. It's almost like Spotify

53:12

has become like of like it's

53:14

like checking the stocks. It's

53:18

really weird because that's the chart.

53:20

It's chart. There's a chart on there. It's like

53:22

there's Global Top fifty. You can

53:24

fully see when

53:26

your song where it is Global

53:29

Top fifty and how far

53:31

it's moving up now far it's moving down,

53:33

And like people are listening to your

53:35

music in real time and you're seeing how they like

53:37

it. It's just it's strange.

53:40

It's really strange. So of

53:43

course I look at that, try not

53:45

to when I'm in the middle of making stuff.

53:47

I try and when i'm you know, I'm

53:49

working so hard on the music that I make

53:53

and mixing it and mastering

53:55

it that by the time I'm done with it, it's

53:57

like for everyone else, I

53:59

kind of them getting worn out in the process

54:02

of mixing. Lately, I

54:04

don't think. I mean, I've

54:06

had songs, of course where the mix

54:09

is catapulted the song and changed it.

54:11

But you know, I have an

54:13

engineer who I think is incredible named

54:16

Paul Amalfa, who works with me on everything

54:18

I do, and is roughs are getting so

54:20

good and they're doing what

54:22

I want to the record, I'm

54:25

like, why am I now then going

54:27

to sit with someone else who

54:30

is amazing at what they do? So naturally,

54:32

they have an ego about how they think

54:34

stuff should be, and they've never heard my song.

54:37

They don't know how what the

54:39

words mean, or which words should

54:41

be a little louder, or which parts I love

54:43

the most. Because I've spend so much time on it, and then

54:46

I got to go and spend another like two weeks

54:49

doing this again with someone else,

54:52

and I'm already burnt on the song because we worked

54:54

on it for so long. I just find the process

54:56

like now, just because we can get the roughs

54:58

so close to be almost

55:01

a little bit unnecessary. Sometimes do you

55:03

run into that at all? Or well, I've

55:07

definitely gotten to the point where we've got demos

55:09

so good that no matter how much time

55:11

we spend mixing it, it's not as good as

55:13

the rough mix. And we end up

55:15

going with the rough mix a lot more now than

55:18

ever. Is that happening because of

55:20

how good the technology is and how

55:22

good your engineers are. I'll

55:27

just say sometimes yes and sometimes Noah.

55:30

And same is true with mastering, by the way, like usually

55:32

now for a while

55:35

now, I'll always have the mastering lab

55:37

master it the way they imagine it, and then

55:39

also send me a flat master, which all

55:42

that all that is is there's no eq there's

55:44

no compression. All they're doing is

55:46

balancing the level between songs, so it doesn't get

55:48

you know, if one mixes quieter than the

55:51

next, they just get it so that they all

55:53

flow into each other without level changes,

55:56

but without doing anything to them. And I

55:58

would say eight out of ten times

56:00

we end up picking that over there because they

56:02

leave your mix ALUs. They leave your

56:04

mix alone, and you can get the mixes so loud

56:07

now, right, that was the overall thing. I

56:09

wanted to be loud. I wanted to be loud. Also,

56:12

now you know you can

56:14

change things, Like

56:16

are there any albums that you've made where

56:19

you're like, I want to remaster this.

56:21

I never look back, I will say.

56:23

The only thing I'll say is like, if it was mastered

56:26

using old technology, you know, thirty

56:28

years ago, we might try remastering

56:30

it now to see if just the

56:33

technology has gotten better to where it sounds

56:35

better. Yeah, you know, But also, what's

56:37

the point If it's such a classic album that people

56:40

love so much and have bought zillions

56:42

of copies and it means something to them, why

56:45

change it? Yeah, it's true. Is

56:47

it for the love of just making it better? This

56:50

could sound better for you. Yeah,

56:52

I would never think about remixing anything,

56:55

or it's more just that.

56:57

I'll give you an example, although this is an ample

57:00

about a remix and it has nothing to

57:02

do with me. I'm just a fan, but I don't

57:04

know if you've heard the last

57:06

year's release of the White album

57:09

deluxe version remixed

57:11

and remastered. It blew

57:13

my mind. Now. It's probably my favorite album.

57:16

Listened to it a million times in my life, and

57:19

it only sounded better. It didn't

57:21

sound different, but

57:24

I felt like I could hear it in a way that was never

57:26

able to hear it before. Like there, it had

57:28

a clarity that was

57:30

never there and a detail.

57:34

And it's not like, well,

57:36

I hear this other thing that I never heard before

57:38

because it's louder. It never felt like

57:40

shined. It just was clear, and

57:43

I loved it. So that was the

57:45

best example of somebody using

57:47

technology to take something that couldn't

57:50

be better and making it better. And they

57:52

mixed it at Abbey Road, and they did it

57:54

where it was made, and they did it the right

57:56

way. And did George's son do

57:58

that? Yeah? It's awesomes?

58:01

Yeah, I mean those

58:03

are those are those are the album.

58:05

I always say that every

58:07

person that I work with, if I'm working with an

58:09

artist or a friend, anyone that's

58:12

like, I want to play guitar, what

58:14

should I do? The only

58:16

thing to do if you want to learn to play guitar is

58:19

or write songs. It's by a Beatles

58:21

chord book. That is. If you

58:24

sit with that book and you can

58:26

play through every one of those songs, don't

58:28

have to do it well, but you can finger though

58:30

every one of those chords and every one of those songs, you

58:32

will know everything you need to know about writing

58:35

a song, because that's just it. I mean.

58:37

And they were like badly

58:40

classically trained musicians,

58:43

you know what I mean. Like they all started on

58:45

classical music at Blackbird is like a flip

58:47

of an old classical song. They

58:49

were just like that was so

58:52

important to them, you know, and

58:54

in their upbringing of music. And

58:56

because of that, the chords are so detailed, but they

58:58

put them into pops. So I mean,

59:01

I think that's just like for

59:03

me, I'm taking chords and playing

59:05

it and then making a buyner after. It's all Beatles

59:08

all the time forever. Well,

59:11

thank you for sharing stories,

59:13

Thank you for talking to me. I don't even know really why I'm

59:16

here. I just want to hang out with you.

59:19

Who will continue now on

59:21

a personal note, cool, thank

59:24

you thanks

59:28

to Andrew Watt for sharing some amazing stories

59:30

with us. Look forward to hearing more music from

59:32

him in the future. You can hear a playlist

59:35

of some of our favorite Andrew Watt records

59:37

at broken record podcast dot com,

59:39

and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at

59:42

YouTube dot com slash broken record

59:44

Podcast. There you can find excited cuts

59:46

of new and old episodes. Broken

59:49

Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason

59:51

Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric

59:54

Sandler and his executive produced

59:56

by Miolabelle. Broken

59:58

Record is a production of Pushkin Industry

1:00:00

and if you like our show, please remember to share, rate,

1:00:02

and review us on your podcast app. Our

1:00:05

theme mus expect any beats. I'm justin

1:00:07

Richmond Pace