0:08

Pushkin. James

0:12

Blake has managed to distill his music down

0:14

to pure emotion. His

0:16

voice is transcendent, define genre

0:19

and gender and the best of the R and B tradition.

0:22

Contrasted with the unsettled, off kilter nature

0:24

of his college style production, his

0:27

sound is deeply stirring. In

0:29

a word, James Blake's music is

0:32

sublime. After

0:34

releasing his self titled debut album in

0:36

two and eleven, the British born

0:38

James Blake went on to win Grammys and

0:41

England's top music honor, the Mercury

0:43

Prize. He's also produced

0:45

and collaborated with a ton of musicians,

0:47

including Jay Z, Beyonce, Billie

0:50

Eilish and Travis Scott. James

0:53

flew from England to work with Rick Rubin at Shangrela

0:56

and Malibu in twenty sixteen. They

0:59

worked together on a third album, The Color

1:01

and Anything, and as you'll

1:03

hear in this conversation with Rick Today, James

1:06

Blake had a life changing experience while

1:08

working and living at Shango Law with Jamila

1:10

Jamil, but the time was his new

1:12

girlfriend. James also recalls

1:15

an embarrassing experience that left him

1:17

making music in secret for years and

1:20

tells Rick that recording his new EP of

1:22

covers solidified his love of

1:24

perfect pop songs. This

1:30

is broken record liner notes for the digital

1:32

age. I'm justin Richmond. Just

1:39

a quick note here. You can listen to

1:41

all of the music mentioned in this episode on

1:43

our playlist, which you can find a link to

1:45

in the show notes for licensing

1:48

reasons, each time a song is referenced

1:50

in this episode, you'll hear this

1:53

sound effect all

1:55

right. Enjoy the episode. Here's

1:58

Rick, Rubin and James live from

2:00

Shangola talk about from

2:03

from the first album, like from making

2:05

things. How did it start and what

2:08

was your process because I imagine it's evolved

2:10

over time. Yeah, first

2:12

album, let's start with the well, the first album,

2:15

I think everything started from.

2:17

In fact, very often I would just sing into the mic

2:20

and then I would remix the vocal essentially

2:22

so like my brother. Yeah,

2:26

So that one was just I sang it into the

2:28

mic as a free

2:30

floating vocal, no

2:33

music behind it, and and then I

2:36

built the entire production around that one

2:38

vocal and if I

2:40

remember correctly, it doesn't change all one. I was

2:42

gonna say, it's all one vocal phrase that just

2:45

gets stacked and just harmonized the different

2:47

ways. Pretty sure. It's one vocal phrase. We

2:50

listen to that. Let's let's incredible,

2:55

it's incredible, it's ridiculous.

2:59

I would just thinking as I was listening to that, since your

3:01

first album came out, I've not been introduced

3:03

to any artists since that.

3:05

I've liked more than you since that time.

3:08

That's Sae, It's it's the truth. Nobody

3:11

close like it's my favorite music. Thank you

3:14

music. That's an unbelievable

3:17

accolade and compliment.

3:19

Thank you. It's unlike anything. It's

3:22

so original and so

3:24

musical, and so seemingly

3:28

awkward yet

3:30

so musical. It doesn't

3:32

make sense, doesn't make sense for it to be as

3:35

groovy as it is for the pieces

3:37

to come together. That that really

3:39

seemed like they don't fit together. Yeah, they really didn't

3:41

seem really don't seem like fether. It

3:44

felt like, I mean, I haven't heard

3:46

that in six or seven years, and

3:48

it felt really strange.

3:51

Yeah, but in the best way, like like

3:54

you're surprised by the changes, Yeah,

3:57

because no one other than you would have made

3:59

those changes. I wouldn't even have made those changes,

4:01

now, you know. And that's that's the thing.

4:03

Is that my you know, the things

4:05

that surprise me now are different. Yeah, so

4:09

obviously the sound of my music change.

4:11

But but I and I

4:13

know I could never go back

4:15

and do the same thing. Yes, but

4:17

once you've kind of bottled

4:21

something, there's no need to

4:23

to do it again. But but I when

4:25

I listened to it, I'm like, it makes

4:27

me think of what I was and who I was then.

4:30

I almost look, it's almost like I took that vocal

4:33

and I flew it to like fifty different countries

4:35

and put a different backdrop on it. Yes, and

4:37

it's drilling and it's really fun. It's

4:39

thrilling. Like I'm listening back to it, I'm like, oh

4:42

that's you know, Yeah, it's really I got

4:44

it. I got something right. I really felt,

4:47

because it's actually unusual to listen

4:49

back to something you did before and go and

4:51

and feel like it's still kind of weirdly

4:53

perfect, even though it's kind of crazy.

4:56

Yes, and if you said you you wouldn't

4:58

make the same choices today. But

5:01

hearing it, it's super

5:03

cool. I'm glad at it. Yeah, it's

5:05

glad that it's in the world. Yeah, I'm really

5:07

glad I did. It's actually really kind of sweet

5:10

to listen to this stuff because there

5:12

wouldn't be another time I would do this, and

5:14

it's and it's kind of re engaging, almost

5:17

like revisiting, like a cellular

5:19

structure that I had before. Yes, so

5:21

tell me about how how did you make that?

5:24

What do you remember about it? And what do you remember

5:26

about yourself? Then I

5:29

would have been in my university

5:32

housing and what school

5:34

did you go to? It was Goldsmith's College.

5:37

And I was incredibly

5:41

I would say reclusive. I would say I

5:43

was very angry, I

5:45

think, and very lonely,

5:48

and I didn't have I wasn't in a relationship. I'd never

5:50

been in one. I was super

5:53

sort of there was no reason for me really

5:55

to go out anywhere, so I just stayed in

5:57

my in my house. I remember

5:59

being dreamily, highly emotional at

6:01

that time. I was listening to Blue by Joni

6:03

Mitchell every night before I went to sleep,

6:06

and I listened to Bonivair for

6:08

Emma Forever Ago every night, and I

6:11

would just sleep to that music, and then i'd wake up and

6:13

I'd feel creative and i'd just make things.

6:16

I'd make music well into the night. And

6:19

what I was normally doing is singing a vocal, and I

6:21

had this cad mic and it was cheap

6:23

and had a little

6:26

Firefox sound card and a

6:28

MacBook and a Midi control and that

6:30

was it. And I just sang a couple of vocals and then

6:32

what I would do is get

6:35

the massive plug in and I would

6:37

just I'd initialize the patch so it

6:39

was just as all wave and I would make it a sign

6:41

wave and I would just play it like an organ.

6:44

And what keyboard were you driving

6:46

it? I was using a just a little

6:48

Midi keyboard like a am Audio thing

6:51

or like a n Ovation I think. And

6:53

it was literally something that any student

6:56

would have. I mean, you know,

6:58

if they were yet, if they if they wanted

7:01

him, if they wanted to do that,

7:02

then there was that the barrier

7:04

of entry was very low. Yes, So what

7:06

you would do, yes in terms of like in terms of within

7:09

the context of you

7:11

know, because I was lucky to even be able to afford that at

7:13

the time. My parents brought me a MacBook

7:16

for college and I just that

7:18

was what I went with, and so I was

7:20

lucky to have that. But and

7:23

I would find different ways to harmonize

7:26

the vocal. So

7:28

what ended up becoming sort of

7:30

my trademark or even

7:33

my biggest tool was what

7:35

I ended up kind of developing

7:37

out of necessity, which was

7:40

to take a melody and

7:43

to almost in a

7:45

sort of bark or you

7:47

know, kind of in a classical

7:49

type sense, it's just take a melody and reharmonize

7:53

until I find the thing that feels

7:55

good. By that point, i'd I've been

7:57

playing piano since I was six years

7:59

old, so that this came naturally

8:01

to me to try. And but it was

8:04

more about placing an emotion within

8:06

the vocal with a

8:08

chord, so each each each

8:11

emotional moment had its own chord, you

8:14

know. So you didn't you didn't learn

8:16

that though you you I

8:18

mean you learned that yourself. Yeah.

8:20

I figured it out over I figured it out over time.

8:23

Yeah, I sort of. It

8:25

was my way of creating

8:29

something new out of something

8:31

that was that felt mundane,

8:34

because ultimately, you know, like a vocal

8:36

unaccompanied if it's not a great

8:38

melody, and I wasn't an inspired

8:40

melody writer, So I just kind of tried

8:43

to make you know, because I

8:45

know, I know people who have the gift

8:47

of just being melodically

8:50

supreme, and when people can do that

8:52

as fantastic. But I wasn't able to do that, So what I did

8:54

was try and find it in other ways by

8:57

harmonizing it differently so that

8:59

it seemed like an incredible melody to

9:01

me. Yes, um, I think the

9:04

most I'm going to request that we get, could we ask for a little

9:06

keyboard to be sent down just so that you could

9:08

demonstrate Yeah. Yeah, One

9:11

thing I realized pretty early on was

9:15

a melody that you

9:17

know, the more I listened to it, the less special it

9:19

became to me. But if I reharmonized

9:21

it, then it was exciting again. So

9:24

so to re harmonize a

9:26

melody and

9:29

also to work within you

9:31

know that a lot of the chord clusters would happen because

9:33

I was working with usually quite a

9:35

small MIDI controller, so I wasn't working

9:37

with the whole range. So actually, you know, how

9:40

to get the most out of I

9:42

don't know, you know, two octaves was

9:45

important too. There's multiple

9:47

parts in that in that I'd never learned to share,

9:49

but none of them are all like that that like

9:52

you know, hands stretched, it's all um,

9:56

you know, like just within

9:59

this range. And then I'd placed that

10:01

part and then you'd have another part there's a base and another

10:03

part that's at the top, which would all be the same keyboard.

10:05

Just change you just change your time. I'm just

10:08

plus yeah, just active down and

10:12

so but you know, it was a bit but

10:14

I think it was a three active. But if

10:17

I was feeling particularly uninspired, and

10:20

it was just you

10:22

know, there's so many ways of

10:25

arriving and leaving and so

10:30

specific order for a song,

10:32

or would you record doing

10:35

a lot of that and then chop it up. I'd record

10:37

a lot of that, and then I'd sample myself basically,

10:40

And that's what happened with as

10:43

soon as you hear it, you're like that,

10:45

and I remember you being like that. So

10:48

that's where, that's where we want. It's

10:51

amazing. It's just amazing

10:54

to see you do that. And

10:56

and I'm glad that you've come to recognize

10:58

that what you do as a that work, it's not

11:00

what other people do, so that you can continue

11:03

to do it. You know, I feel like the

11:05

more you try to do what anyone else does, the

11:08

less interesting I've done. I've been there, man,

11:10

I've been there. I've I've you know, for the

11:14

years after the color and anything I was trying

11:16

to chase the

11:19

the genius of other people, you know,

11:21

people I've worked with, people who've influenced

11:23

me, people who have seemed

11:25

to be you know, just based

11:27

on my own down opinion on myself,

11:30

were just so much high, you know, at

11:32

a higher level of something that I couldn't do

11:34

or whatever. I think I just had

11:36

to get over that and get through it. And

11:39

I think, you know, by the time

11:41

i'd done assume form, i'd kind of assume

11:44

form. The reason I decided to make that record

11:46

wasn't because I needed to make a record. It was because

11:48

I needed to get away from the idea

11:51

that I had to write music in a way

11:53

other than under my own. And

11:56

I finally got sick of waiting for other people,

11:59

sick of I was working on other

12:01

projects and other things, and people

12:03

were wasting my time. And I

12:06

realized they had a moment of realization.

12:10

I'm me, I

12:12

can do whatever the fuck I want. Why am I

12:14

waiting? Why am I

12:16

idolizing other people? Why

12:19

I can already do the thing, you

12:22

know, do the thing that I love, like, why torture

12:26

myself like that? And because

12:28

you know, working with other artists is amazing, but some

12:30

you know, I think at a formative

12:33

time in my career, put too much

12:35

weight on what some other people thought

12:37

and too much kind of

12:39

involvement in them. And I don't

12:41

know why I expected from them. Maybe I expected

12:43

too much or whatever, but I think it

12:46

was a reflection on where I was at the time,

12:48

but it ended up throwing me

12:51

really severely off course musically, and

12:53

I feel like I'm finding assumed

12:55

form and where I'm at now has

12:58

been me finding my feet and

13:00

kind of going, fuck everyone else.

13:03

I'm sure about this,

13:06

and I'm sure of myself and I I'm

13:10

comfortable in my skin musically,

13:13

and the amount

13:15

of voices that are going on in the back of my

13:17

head when I'm making music now, I could have

13:20

not been able to count them before. I mean,

13:22

it was, it was intense, and

13:25

it ruined my process for a while, but now

13:28

is it feels relatively

13:31

quiet in there. And I think it's

13:33

a big part of why I

13:36

made this before EP, because I

13:38

wasn't thinking about, oh am I going to be judged if I sing

13:40

over dance music or you know, if

13:42

I combine those two worlds, and I'm not going

13:44

to be you know,

13:47

in my thinking part of it as

13:49

well. There could be some people who think

13:52

this is a bastardization of dance music,

13:54

or it's a bastardization of songwriting,

13:56

or it's it's you

13:58

know, are the songs truck is perfect? But I

14:01

don't know. The point is songs

14:04

like I keep calling on this EP are

14:07

kind of like the modern in a way.

14:09

That's my modern dance music. Never lend share.

14:12

It's a it's a weird structure, but

14:14

it hits my it

14:17

hits a part of me, and it it

14:19

seems somehow solid, even though it seems

14:21

like it's just about being held together. Honestly,

14:24

Breck has been such an fucking

14:26

journey to that feeling, and it's nice

14:28

to be able to say that to you. Yes, I appreciate it.

14:30

Let's listen to that song. We'll

14:34

be back with more of James Blake's conversation with

14:36

Rick Rubin after a quick break. We're

14:42

back with Rick Rubin and James Blake.

14:45

Was the household you grew up in musical

14:48

Yeah, I mean my dad is a musician

14:51

and he was always playing music,

14:53

and you know, my mum and him, it was, you

14:55

know, singing in the car and

14:58

doing three part harmonies in the car. Are

15:00

on the way to like going on holiday and stuff

15:02

like that. So because we would drive to holiday, I

15:04

mean we'd go on holiday too, you know, Wales

15:07

or the beach, and I want

15:09

to say the beach. It's

15:12

really just a kind of a

15:14

gallery of rocks in England,

15:16

but that's what we call the beach. So we're

15:19

on the way down, we'd go camping

15:21

in Pembrokeshire or something. I actually saw a bunch of

15:23

like UFOs. There's the thing

15:25

called the Pembrokeshire Triangle, which

15:27

is a bit like the Bermuda Triangle except

15:31

a lot less cool. And

15:34

we went there quite

15:36

a bit and we'd go camping

15:38

and I sort of learned how to sing

15:40

really in a way through

15:43

doing that, I learned how to harmonize, especially

15:46

how to slot in between two other notes,

15:48

or how to you know, how to follow

15:51

a top line or how you know. Those things really

15:53

came from my parents. What would be the songs

15:55

that he would sing in the car? God, I can't,

15:57

I can't remember. Isn't she loved? I

16:00

can't really, I can't remember it. Maybe Stevie Wonder songs

16:02

or singing on the dock of the bay, or

16:05

some Crosby stills, and Nash songs. I

16:07

remember that our house was one that we used

16:09

to sing a lot. And would

16:11

those be the songs that would be playing in your house like that

16:13

your parents? Yea, and so they'd sing it in the car

16:15

on the way down or maybe it would be

16:18

but happy Birthday that every year to

16:20

this day, my parents will call

16:22

me and sing a Happy birthday in

16:25

harmony beautiful like It's

16:27

just what they do. And the

16:30

only drawback is that they can't

16:32

have a third because otherwise I'd be singing happy birthdays

16:34

myself. But that is a

16:36

very cute thing that they do. And you said you started

16:38

playing piano when you were six? Did you did

16:40

you take formal lessons? I

16:43

did lessons from Yeah.

16:46

Around that age. My dad asked

16:48

me if I wanted to play a guitar or piano

16:50

or anything, and I said, I'll playing

16:53

guitar and he was like, well I can get I can

16:55

teach you that, So pick something else. And

16:57

I started piano lessons and I

17:00

never really look back. And also I don't

17:02

think me and my dad were compatible as a

17:05

student teacher relationship. I think we were better

17:07

as just you know, father son. So and

17:09

did you learn classical music. Yeah,

17:12

I did all the grade you know, I did grade

17:14

eight or whatever, and I could have carried on and done

17:16

my diploma and etc. But I didn't.

17:19

I just sort of ended with that and

17:21

said said goodbye to the

17:24

academic side of music because I just wasn't

17:26

that interested. But it did give me a great

17:28

backbone. But you know, and I

17:31

wasn't very good sight reader. So if you

17:33

don't develop sit reading very well,

17:35

then it's hard to want

17:38

to approach a new piece of classical

17:40

music with sheet music because

17:44

the journey to getting to just playing

17:46

some fucking notes is so hard if you're

17:48

not good at that that I gave up

17:51

and I just wanted to improvise. And the whole time I'd

17:53

just been learning to improvise myself. So it

17:55

would go, James, do your practice,

17:58

I go downstair play for

18:01

you know, I try and learn this piece for I don't know,

18:04

fifteen minutes and I give up, and then I just

18:06

improvise for forty five minutes. And

18:08

so they could see that I was just way more

18:11

inclined and way more excited

18:13

about improvising. And

18:15

that's kind of what I've based my career on, really, is

18:17

improvising I've always just improvised

18:20

and then edited. Would you always improvise

18:23

solo? Or might you put

18:26

on a piece of music and play along

18:28

and improvise? There was this

18:30

funny, embarrassing moment I was always

18:33

I was playing with these kids up the street. We were

18:36

playing tennis regularly, and I

18:38

became friends with one of them, and

18:41

we lived four doors down from

18:43

them, and so I could see their garden

18:45

because we live in these like semi detached whatever

18:48

houses and terraced houses in England.

18:51

So from my bedroom I could see over the fences

18:54

and he was in his garden.

18:56

I remember I was playing. I

18:59

would play records every night, so

19:02

I'd come home from school and I just set

19:04

up, I put a CD on and I

19:06

just played piano and sing to the records with a mic.

19:09

This was by the time I was like fourteen fifteen, and

19:14

I think I was playing like

19:17

I was playing records that kids my age

19:19

thought were really sad, that as

19:21

in, were really on completely.

19:24

Uncle. What's the songs?

19:27

Amazing song, Whitney Houston

19:29

song, children

19:31

a Future two

19:34

some. We let them do that

19:36

song. Unbelievable song. But anyway, so I'm just

19:38

I'm belting this song at

19:40

the top of my voice, playing like

19:43

an electronic like eighties roads

19:46

type sound like

19:48

MIDI roads, and then I

19:51

hear a bunch of kids laughing and

19:53

they're going I can't remember what they were saying, but

19:55

they were basically heckling me from four like

19:58

houses away. And it was honestly

20:01

one of the most embarrassing moments of my whole

20:03

like one of the more embarrassing moments,

20:05

because I remember that was my whole friend one

20:08

of my whole friendship groups were there, and

20:10

I was like crippled after

20:12

that because I was just like this other

20:15

people see this as a as a really

20:18

effeminate and you know, like

20:20

effeminate and a sad,

20:23

lonely thing to do. They

20:25

look at me as in some way kind

20:28

of a weird, weirdough for like

20:30

just wanting to do this, and also

20:33

potentially there were homophobic undertones

20:35

to like their abuse the

20:37

heckling. I was just like, this

20:39

is this is crazy, this is the

20:41

thing I love doing. How can

20:43

I be firstly a

20:46

man and also

20:48

like them? That doesn't make sense, you

20:52

know, I can't be I

20:54

can't be myself and like them,

20:57

so I must be must

21:00

be different and I and this I

21:03

need to I need to keep away from other people.

21:05

I need to make sure that no one sees me or hears

21:07

me doing this. So it was kind of funny

21:09

in a way, like when I look back on it, it's kind of a

21:12

funny story. But at the same time, at the time it

21:14

didn't feel funny. It felt like really shameful

21:19

because at the time, like I said, there was so much toxic

21:21

masculinity. You know, it was all about like being

21:23

sporty and being you know, and I was just this kind

21:25

of kid. He wanted to sing to Whitney Houston

21:28

songs in my bedroom and

21:30

like Mariah Carey, I was like obsessed

21:32

with music box, you know, all

21:34

these singers. It was super expressive. And there's

21:37

me you know, with the I

21:39

mean, you know, super like Ross Geller, like

21:41

with my little keyboard and my mic and like

21:43

trying to and so I just,

21:46

you know, I think it started off that

21:49

weird moment. Weirdly probably stopped

21:51

me from wanting to show my musical

21:53

ability to anyone, and so I didn't

21:56

really play. I remember being you know, I'd

21:58

go into practice rooms and I'm just not I'd

22:01

not let anyone come and hear me. I

22:03

would just go in and I'd make sure no one was around,

22:05

and I'd go in on my own after school, and

22:07

I'd make sure no one could hear me in, and I

22:09

would just express I'll just play your

22:13

parents. No, not

22:15

a lot. I mean I did a bit, but

22:17

not a lot. I would play with them in the other room,

22:21

and they would be only ones that were sort of allowed

22:23

to hear me, even from the other room. But

22:25

I was very ashamed, I think looking back,

22:28

I mean, I've not really ever talked about this, but I'm

22:30

very ashamed of playing because

22:32

I felt that it undermined

22:35

my sort of ability

22:37

to interface with other kids.

22:39

Really weird to think that it should

22:41

be something I would have felt ashamed of when I would

22:44

imagine you'd have thought

22:46

that it would have been something that people thought was cool,

22:48

right, singing and playing. I don't know I

22:50

would think that, but that's just not how people.

22:52

People reacted. Yeah, I

22:54

mean, anything that makes you different is any

22:56

excuse too, To

22:59

be honest, they probably thought I was just annoying, which

23:01

I was, and the you

23:03

know, the the way of actually

23:05

articulating that was sad

23:07

for playing the songs. But actually,

23:09

yeah, I think it was a why

23:12

and so maybe that even followed me into

23:14

not feeling fully confident

23:17

to put my music, put my voice in my

23:19

music. I don't know. I

23:22

mean there's lots of embarrassing

23:24

moments like that that would have led to that. So it wasn't just

23:26

that. But you know, if you ever, if

23:28

you ever turbulent childhood, you can really spend

23:31

at least up until other a's to

23:33

to unpack what happened and why

23:35

you feel shame around certain things and

23:37

why you know, And it

23:40

was definitely this whole,

23:43

you know, these four albums have been me

23:45

unpacking everything

23:48

in real time and showing my workings.

23:50

Really, do you remember the first time you sang

23:52

in front of people on purpose? Yeah?

23:55

I was terrified, but I remember that this

23:57

girl really liked it and said and

23:59

told her friend that she fancied me. How

24:02

old were you at the time, I was about fourteen.

24:04

Yeah, that was the first time I thought

24:06

this is this is okay? Now,

24:09

yeah this is cool. When did

24:11

you know that you were going to do this for

24:14

your life, like this was going to be the focus

24:16

of your life. I think I always

24:18

thought it would be pretty much. I

24:21

didn't ever think I would

24:23

get a different job. I mean,

24:25

even when you were ashamed of it

24:27

and doing it in your boy yourself. Yeah, you felt

24:29

like this is what I'm going because I thought, well, they're

24:32

not ashamed. All these artists

24:34

are making all this music, so someone's not ashamed

24:36

of it. Yes, I'm ashamed of

24:38

it. Yes, And as soon as

24:40

I'm out of this fucking shitthole, yes that

24:43

I'm I was born in, and that all

24:45

these people are judging me in, yes, I'm

24:47

fucking out of here, and I'm going to show everyone

24:50

that this isn't shameful and that

24:52

this is worthwhile and that

24:54

I was actually pretty good at it, and

24:57

so fuck you all. You

24:59

know, I'm going to go into this room here where

25:02

no one is and work

25:04

on that silently until I

25:06

get the opportunity to get out of it. Amazing,

25:09

beautiful story. Thanks. I

25:12

definitely spent too

25:14

long, though, because you know, after after you

25:16

want to prove yourself, it's like that feeling doesn't

25:18

doesn't go away naturally,

25:21

So long after you need to prove

25:24

yourself, you're still trying to prove yourself. Yeah,

25:26

And I think that is that's what you're

25:28

chipping at. That that's the thing I've been chipping

25:30

away at is that that need

25:32

to prove that I can

25:34

do something. I mean, I've proven

25:36

that, you know, I don't need to anymore, while

25:40

you don't need to do that anymore. If it's driving

25:42

you're making great music. Yeah,

25:44

it's a it's worth the price, yeah

25:47

in a way, in a way. Yeah, I've

25:49

debated that with myself

25:52

over the years of you know, where it was

25:55

was the music worth the pain? And

25:59

there have been times when I said no, and I would

26:01

have taken it all back fully,

26:03

Yeah, yeah, because I think

26:05

you know, until you develop

26:08

who you are outside of music, and you develop

26:10

your sort of raised on there for outside

26:13

of it, then it

26:15

can feel that when it's taken away, it

26:18

removes your purpose as

26:20

a human beings. So therefore you might as well not be here. And

26:22

that's that's where I got to during

26:24

the Color and Anything almost you know,

26:26

before I came here, that's where I was

26:29

because I thought, well, if I can't do this, then what can

26:31

I do? What's the point in me being

26:34

here? There's no point, which is obviously i'm

26:36

very unhealthy thought, but it's but it was because

26:38

I hadn't worked on any of my relationships or

26:40

my friendships or or myself.

26:43

I'd only worked on music at that point, so it's

26:45

like, well, if this thing isn't working

26:48

and I've got block on this, then I'm

26:50

fucked. And I was fucked.

26:54

And so from the point of being

26:56

fucked, it was a

26:58

long road to unfucking myself. As Russell

27:00

Brown would put it, how

27:03

do you describe the difference from

27:05

the from the first album to the second

27:08

album? From the

27:10

first of the second, well,

27:12

the second had more pressure on it

27:14

by quite a long stretch. And I don't

27:17

you know, I don't shy away from pressure, but

27:22

the songs time you had to deal with it, though.

27:24

Really that was the first so

27:26

I kind of didn't really understand it in a way.

27:29

I wasn't really I didn't really feel afraid

27:32

because I was like, well, this has never

27:34

happened to me before, so this is all brand new

27:36

anyway, so I might as well just react to what's happening.

27:38

I'm not. I

27:41

wasn't consumed yet with what people

27:43

thought of me, because I was already

27:45

I was doing well and I thought, well,

27:47

I'll just continue doing that right and people

27:50

would like it again. So I

27:52

did. And but you know

27:54

that the song for

27:56

that record, I Retrograde didn't really

27:58

come to me until probably

28:01

the second from last thing I wrote in

28:04

a like three year period. It actually

28:07

was touch and go really, because

28:09

if that song hadn't been on the record, I don't think people

28:11

did bore it. You know, it was

28:13

it was by far and away the standout

28:16

song in terms of people's I

28:18

think people bought it because they liked

28:20

the first album, but then Ritrograd

28:23

was the one that they talked about, right, and had

28:25

had that I'll been on there, I think it would have been harder

28:28

to convince people that I'd evolved and

28:30

though I was getting better at my craft,

28:33

you know, because I think the rest of it is fairly

28:35

I mean, it's more put together than the first

28:37

one, but it's like, I

28:40

think some of that album is

28:42

caught in a middle ground between complete

28:45

collage and song.

28:48

So you know, it needed that

28:51

song with a real backbone, even though it's

28:53

not a conventional structure. It needed that song with a

28:55

real backbone to pop out

28:57

and grab people. So but

29:00

yeah, I think, you know that's by that

29:02

time, I'd been in my first relationship

29:05

as well, which changed things, and

29:07

I had more to write about. I wasn't

29:09

just writing about being a lonely virgin

29:12

anymore, and

29:16

you know there was some level

29:18

of account accountability from

29:20

that as well, you know, like just starting to

29:22

realize that I actually affect other people

29:24

and they affect me. Yeah, I would

29:26

say even even the songs

29:29

rooted in collage are I

29:31

think it's such a big part of what you do that

29:35

a good collage from you is

29:37

every bit as compelling as someone

29:39

else's good song. Oh, that's nice

29:41

to hear. Yeah, I think it's it's

29:44

it's it's really, I think that's your

29:46

your mastery is of that. Well,

29:49

I definitely I would I'd

29:52

say I got into the habit of thinking of

29:54

it as weaker and so

29:56

it's nice to hear say that. I think it might be

29:58

your superpower. Well,

30:02

I think it's the superpower I didn't want. Yeah,

30:05

I think it's you know, it's it's it's I

30:07

think that if it is that, I think that's the kid for a lot

30:09

of people. I think we're assigned. Yeah,

30:12

it's like, give me invisibility. I

30:14

don't want the ability to make a collage.

30:18

But I'd say two years ago, if

30:20

I could have chosen, I would have taken strong

30:23

pop songwriting as as

30:26

a power over what I have. Yes,

30:29

and I'm so glad

30:31

you didn't get that choice. Yeah, I

30:33

mean too. And actually now i'd

30:35

say I'm happy with what I have, you know, I'd

30:38

say that I'm I'm excited

30:40

to see what that yields in the future,

30:42

because I think it's nice to think

30:44

that you can do something after

30:47

all these years, to look look at what

30:49

you do and go, oh no, it's it's naturally evolved

30:51

over all this time. And if I hadn't

30:54

have been me, then it

30:56

would have never got off the ground. Maybe none

30:58

of it would have got off the ground. And it's

31:00

like finding money down the back of the sofa. It's like,

31:02

you know, oh, I still got that. You

31:05

know, I've found this ability that

31:07

I've got to do this thing that is actually kind of

31:09

unusual. We'll be right back with more from

31:12

James Blake. We're

31:17

back with James Blake talking to Rick Rubin about

31:19

moving to LA full time and also about

31:21

putting his live show together with friends and bandmates

31:24

Rab mccandrews and Ben Asset. Are

31:27

you living out here full time now? I am? Yeah.

31:29

You know, it's funny since I since

31:32

I came to sharing with LA, I didn't

31:34

leave really. I flew

31:36

over here like I was in

31:38

such a bad way, and I remember, you know, telling

31:41

you about a lot of that stuff. And when I

31:43

was in England, I

31:46

think I just had this idea

31:48

that I was just going to stay there, and

31:51

you know, it's very English of me, but just to kind

31:53

of you know, stay and suffer. Yeah,

31:56

and I

31:58

Jemina sort of put me on a plane basically,

32:01

and because she was already going and I was like,

32:03

yeah, I'll come with you. And but she'd

32:05

been in La and I was

32:07

staying in England and just getting

32:09

stuck essentially, and then so

32:12

and then she brought me over

32:14

and the first thing I did was come here pretty

32:16

much, and she came to stay with

32:18

me, and we basically fell in love

32:20

here. So that moment,

32:23

those like four months were like, you

32:25

know, for us, kind of like a

32:27

summer holiday thing, and

32:31

you know, it was it was up and down. But

32:34

ultimately we may not have

32:36

had that time again because you know, after I

32:38

left Shangola, she ended

32:40

up getting really busy and I got really busy, and

32:43

so that it was really formative

32:45

being here and

32:48

I and I didn't pack

32:50

much stuff. I just came here and

32:52

then I was like, I'm never I

32:54

realized I'm not going back. It

32:57

was a very It was a moment of

32:59

real clarity as I am, I don't

33:01

know if I'm ever going to live there again.

33:03

Yeah, it's interesting. I want to just

33:05

fly my stuff over, like I don't even want to go back

33:07

to interesting. It's interesting when it

33:09

hits you. Yeah, the reality

33:12

of oh I'm not going back. Yeah.

33:14

I can remember you talked about ups and

33:16

downs, and I can remember there was one time

33:19

when there was something going on

33:21

relationship wise that was heavy, and we watched

33:23

that video about non balant communication.

33:26

I remember it really reached you. It was

33:28

huge. That moment was huge, and

33:31

I wanted to thank you actually in person

33:33

because because I haven't really you

33:35

know that things have gone

33:38

in so many different directions for the both of us, but

33:40

we haven't really seen each other since those

33:42

sessions. But I wanted

33:44

to thank you because that moment was instrumental

33:48

in our relationship, but also just in general for

33:51

me. It was the Marshall

33:53

Rosenberg non violet communication thing

33:55

and learning after

33:57

a lifetime of basically

33:59

just accusatory language, you

34:02

know, of just saying well, if I feel this way, then it must

34:04

be you know, you did this

34:06

and you did that, and that's why I feel

34:08

like this and actually to

34:10

be able to do away with that kind of language

34:12

and speak from a place

34:14

of feeling and non

34:17

accusatory language. I recommend

34:20

that now to everyone I come across who

34:22

was in a relationship or just

34:24

even who wants to change

34:27

the way they work with the world. It's

34:30

it's massive. It like change the way

34:32

I produce as well, like

34:34

the way I am makes you

34:36

more approachable. You can

34:39

roll with the punch, is much easier, things

34:42

tend not to go sour. Relationships

34:45

that you know with

34:47

people who are more like that are

34:50

much more likely to work because you can

34:52

come to a middle ground. And so

34:55

I mean, yeah, not only did it fix

34:57

that particular problem at the time in

34:59

my ship, but also just had so

35:01

many knock on effects. So thank

35:04

you. I've done a

35:06

lot of growing up, and I think

35:08

actually, like

35:10

the kind of in anything. The record we worked on

35:12

together was so much

35:15

a coming of age record.

35:17

Really, I don't know if coming of age means

35:19

a certain age, but for me that was, you

35:22

know, I was twenty six or

35:24

twenty five, and you know, coming into

35:26

the what they call the Satin Was it

35:28

The Satin Returns or whatever? And

35:32

yeah it was. I mean

35:34

that is that is a complex album. It's

35:36

a it's a dense kind

35:39

of forest in my mind when

35:41

I when I look back at that music, I

35:43

do a little bit feel sorry

35:45

for you for having had

35:47

to sit while I you

35:50

know, I mean, if you

35:52

ever watched The Crystal Maze. No, we

35:54

had this game show in the UK where basically

35:58

there's a team of people, like

36:01

four of them or multiple

36:03

of them are outside the maze, basically

36:07

being able to communicate with the person that is in the maze.

36:10

And so there's one person going through

36:12

the maze, but they don't see everyone else

36:14

sees it from the bird's eye view and they only see it from

36:16

inside the maze. So they're like no, no no, no, go left,

36:18

go left. I feel like that's what

36:20

that record was. I feel like you were You

36:22

were the people outside the maze, and I was in the maze

36:25

trying to get the fuck out of it, making all

36:27

the wrong turns. But I think, you

36:30

know, I did get out of it in the end. But it's like, as

36:32

a producer, how do you see that

36:34

kind of situation? Is it a challenge?

36:37

Is it a personal challenge. Is it a musical challenge

36:39

or is it it's just it's just part and parcel

36:42

of the job. It's part of the job. Is

36:44

it's as much about having an instinct

36:47

about the music as as an instinct

36:49

of how to deal with the emotions

36:51

going on in the room and people and where people

36:53

are in their lives. Yeah, and it's so different,

36:55

and you'd think it has something

36:58

to do with each, but it really doesn't, right, And

37:00

I've seen at both ends

37:02

of the spectrum. I've seen very young artists

37:05

who are attached to some ideas

37:07

that are not helpful to them

37:09

and are unwilling to let go of them because

37:12

they because of in their limited view,

37:14

they think that that thing that they're not willing to let go

37:16

of is the reason they've gotten as far as they've gotten. That's

37:19

one version. And then I've seen,

37:21

you know, I've worked with you know, seventy

37:23

year old greatest artists in the world,

37:26

and they still seem

37:28

lost. It's unbelieving, you know, it's

37:31

unbelievable at both ends. But then there

37:33

and then you you meet people

37:35

who are just completely

37:37

comfortable with themselves, comfortable with the process.

37:40

There's no rules, you know, it really is different

37:42

every everyone, and you must get

37:44

it is. I mean you get to work with a lot of people and you see

37:46

it's it's completely different every time. It

37:49

is. And I noticed that when when as

37:51

a producer, I think with my producer hats on, coming

37:53

to work at shang Laren and working with you was

37:56

huge for learning how

37:58

to adapt to those situations

38:00

because I'd put someone in that situation

38:03

myself, you know, like

38:05

I can look back on moments

38:08

of coming into the studio and just not wanting to work.

38:11

You know, we were here for months, so there

38:13

were days when I just couldn't work. I

38:15

was just catatonic, almost like I could

38:17

barely even speak. Most people can

38:20

hide that if they're only going to the studio for like

38:22

a day or two, a few sessions

38:24

in a week. But

38:26

when you're going through something and you're just going in every day

38:28

and you're staying at the studio, then

38:31

you can't really hide it as well.

38:34

It's like being in Big Brother or something like a

38:36

reality TV shows, like you can hold it up

38:38

for hold up the facade for a while,

38:40

but at some point everybody's seeing

38:42

you every day, like all the engineers, the

38:45

assistant, the you know, you

38:47

like at some point you break. I

38:50

think what it showed me

38:53

was how to accommodate somebody's

38:55

their actual real life and the

38:58

fact that their real life is

39:00

what they're drawing from, and to not

39:02

take that for granted. It's actually really

39:05

heavy some of the ship people go through to actually

39:07

what they put into this music, and so

39:10

you can't always think about music basically,

39:12

and then it can't always only be about the music,

39:15

because ultimately, if you don't have

39:17

any ability to listen

39:19

to them about the other stuff, then why

39:21

are you really as a producer.

39:24

There's also the I

39:26

imagine it's different

39:28

for you as I think of you primarily

39:30

as an artist who as a producer, right, But

39:33

maybe that's just because that's the way I came in contact

39:35

with you as an artist first. Now I think

39:37

you're probably right. Yeah, I don't imagine

39:39

that adds another layer of complexity

39:42

to it, because you always

39:45

would know what you would do as an artist,

39:47

but what you would do as an artist might not always

39:50

be what's best for them as an artist.

39:52

So being the producer for them is different

39:55

than being an artist

39:57

collaborating with them as another

40:00

Yeah, to be able to have some distance and

40:02

to maintain that clarity

40:05

and objectivity is

40:08

much easier when you're not thinking about

40:11

your you know this outpouring

40:14

all the time. And and

40:16

actually a little bit like you

40:18

know when people say that once they're in a safe

40:20

relationship, all of the all

40:23

their stuff rises to the top. When

40:26

you're starting like an album

40:28

campaign or sorry, an album

40:30

recording, and you don't

40:32

know where it's going to go, and you're just you know,

40:35

you're trying to find or at least

40:37

I'm trying to find the real feelings

40:40

and the and the you know what

40:43

it is. I want to say, you're likely

40:45

to stumble on some land mines emotionally

40:48

because they're there, and it

40:51

part of the process

40:54

of trying to heal yourself

40:57

for musicians in some way, at

40:59

least temporary, really is to

41:01

step on them. So

41:03

you know, I think I stepped on a few while I was here. That's

41:07

why it's so therapeutic. The

41:09

process of making music is so healing,

41:12

both for the person making the music

41:14

and for the listener. Yeah, you know, there's some there's

41:16

something inherent in it. Even when someone's

41:18

singing about something terribly painful

41:21

and there's no resolution in the song that

41:25

has a healing feeling for someone

41:27

who's also feeling that because you

41:29

resonate on a human level, I'm not alone,

41:31

you know, this is a real Yeah,

41:33

we're in this together, even though we don't know each

41:35

other. Yeah, that's right. I actually

41:38

think that for me, the allure

41:40

of producing probably grew greater

41:43

after I worked with you, just because

41:45

I saw that there was a way of stepping

41:47

back, you know. I think being so

41:51

in it all the time, just in the emotional

41:53

trenches, it's just it's hard

41:56

and and it takes its hell in

41:58

a way, it's healing, but then also takes a toll,

42:01

and the people around you

42:03

are constantly subjected to it. You're

42:06

not the same basically, and

42:08

it is ultimately a fairly self absorbed

42:10

thing. So I think

42:13

my fear as

42:15

someone who you know, got

42:17

into music. I mean, I

42:19

was touring by the time I was twenty one, you know, and

42:22

like I was

42:24

starting to DJ, starting to play live, and

42:26

everything became about me. And I'm the solo

42:28

artist. I'm the front man, I'm the you know, the

42:31

person who does the interviews. I'm what people

42:33

are trying to get answers out of. I

42:35

think at a certain point when I

42:38

realized that that was having a negative

42:40

effect on people around me. I

42:42

almost became allergic to the idea

42:45

of going to that place where everything's about

42:47

me again. And so the idea

42:49

of going to a studio and having

42:52

everybody, like, you know, having people

42:54

getting the food, getting the you

42:57

know, going to like even

42:59

just turning knobs for me, but on the

43:01

desk, you know, or people

43:04

asking me, you know,

43:06

what are your thoughts on how this is good? You know, this

43:09

album being about my emotions in

43:12

some way felt

43:14

selfish, self indulgent.

43:16

Self indulgent, yeah, and selfish

43:18

because ultimately, you know, people around

43:20

me lives would change if I went and just stayed

43:22

and I stayed in the sorry a studio

43:24

for a month or maybe

43:27

let some of my responsibilities

43:29

go a little bit, because I was so absorbed in the

43:31

music. And so I think I'm becoming

43:33

a bit afraid of that. And I think producing

43:35

was a way to transition

43:38

out of that thing

43:40

and ultimately be

43:42

able to just go home, clock out. And

43:45

I noticed that when I

43:47

was here. One of the things

43:49

that always struck me as Initially

43:51

it struck me as odd, but then I realized was fucking

43:53

great is that you would

43:56

always clock out at like seven o'clock, so

43:58

we'd work from twelve to seven, and then

44:00

you'd be out and you'd be having dinner with your wife.

44:03

I always thought, but what if

44:06

something amazing happens after seven o'clock,

44:08

you know? And but that's me being

44:10

so absorbed in it that I think that that's more

44:12

amazing than having dinner. It's

44:14

not, you know. And now I realize

44:17

that it's not more amazing. Firstly, it's

44:19

not more amazing than having dinner. Secondly, it's

44:22

important to have your boundaries, and

44:24

it's just so much hard to have your boundaries when it's your

44:26

music. Let me let me

44:29

say two things about that, or things to think about

44:31

about that. The first one is it's

44:33

different for an artist who

44:35

does a deep dive into

44:38

a window of time making an album.

44:40

Let's say it's several months of total

44:43

dedication to nothing else. So

44:46

you've done that four times over the course of your life.

44:48

I do that every day, all the time, for

44:51

the last thirty something years, you

44:53

know, hundreds of times. So for

44:56

me, it's different because if there's no breaks

44:59

on a day basis, and there's no breaks in my life

45:01

ever at all, and I do feel

45:03

like and I learned this the hard

45:05

way is that I probably spent twenty

45:08

five years of my life in

45:10

dark rooms with no windows, often

45:14

past the point of productivity. Yes,

45:17

out of some other other

45:20

thought of thinking I

45:22

was going to miss something, which I

45:24

don't believe I did considering the fact that

45:26

if work is still going on and something good happens,

45:28

I get to hear it the next day when I come in. Either

45:32

way. Yeah, the other part

45:34

of it is that that's in terms of the personal

45:36

balance side, then in terms of the

45:39

having perspective,

45:43

being able to step away or even better,

45:45

getting to work on something else and then

45:47

coming back really

45:49

changes your relationship to it. Yeah,

45:52

you're hearing it closer to the way other

45:54

people are going to hear it. Other people don't

45:56

get to hear it a million

45:59

times in a row before they even

46:01

decide if it's done or if they like it. Yeah,

46:04

it's another thing I've learned to stop. I don't

46:06

take any mixes out of the studio with me. I

46:08

never listen to a work in progress

46:10

unless unless there's

46:13

a specific reason to, you know, if

46:15

there's a decision to be made, I'll listen, but

46:18

I don't want to listen to something over and over and over

46:20

again and get used to it, because

46:23

then I'll think that's how it goes,

46:26

when in reality, if I don't listen to

46:28

it and come back fresh and hear it, I

46:30

may realize, oh, this part that sounded

46:33

the right length yesterday is too long. I

46:35

wouldn't have known that if I kept drilling

46:37

it into my head in the way that I liked

46:39

on that one day. So there's a real

46:42

benefit in stepping away and coming back and

46:44

seeing it fresh. There's a balance

46:46

to be struck, for sure, if you can

46:49

maintain some sense of normalcy

46:52

at the same time as in your private

46:54

sort of way being this absolutely

46:57

not really for this thing that you're this

46:59

little kind of sculpture

47:01

you're building in your in your back room. That's kind

47:04

of what it feels like. But I but I do

47:06

feel that wherever I am,

47:08

it always feels like I have this secret, you

47:11

know. I feel like, you know, I could just be

47:13

at a party, or like I could be at the beach or whatever,

47:15

but in the back of my mind, I'm building

47:18

this this thing at home.

47:20

And in some ways that's a cool

47:22

feeling, and in other ways that's an incredibly

47:25

kind of isolating feeling because no one could

47:28

see it. Yeah, but it's like

47:30

when I first came here, I was like, oh this is this

47:32

is like life rehab, like

47:35

people come here to get better whatever

47:38

it is. You know, everything's white

47:40

and green like the grass, and you

47:43

know there's like more, there's like exotic

47:46

wildlife just coming and perching

47:48

outside just as you're writing lyrics of

47:50

the other things you've got

47:52

to produce and collaborate on. What's been the

47:55

most fun for you outside of you as

47:57

an artist? M Well,

48:00

Andre three thousand spins to mind, and

48:04

some of my work with Stara has been really fun.

48:07

The most fun I mean it

48:10

was I mean working on four or

48:12

four is incredibly gratifying, even though I didn't

48:14

actually do that much. I mean in terms

48:16

of, you know, musical input

48:18

there really wasn't a huge amount. But it was being

48:21

in the room and being a part of a

48:23

record being created and being an opinion

48:26

that was driving where that record

48:28

went, one of many,

48:31

and helping Jay formulate whatever.

48:35

Even to just play a small part in that was just so

48:37

fucking fun. And just his process

48:40

showed me that there was a different process. You know, I could

48:42

have loads of people being a committee

48:45

and and and and take

48:47

every opinion. What's that quote?

48:50

Megan Markles said it in an interview recently. Let

48:54

let compliments and criticisms

48:58

flow down the same drain. You know, amazing

49:00

ability to do that presence of

49:02

mind over himself. And

49:05

I imagine your voice was probably different

49:07

than many of the voices in the room, which is

49:09

interesting. Yeah, although probably the biggest,

49:12

like the person I learned the most

49:14

from aside from Jay was No Idea.

49:17

He probably is the most

49:19

truth telling, one of the most

49:21

truth telling people I've ever met, just

49:24

in terms of you know, he doesn't care

49:27

what the reaction is to what he's saying. He

49:29

will just deliver the absolute,

49:31

whole truth. And that I

49:34

think is part of the essence of fourth or four

49:36

I think is No Ideas. Next

49:39

to Jay, the biggest influence

49:41

on that record is No Idea.

49:44

It's so helpful when someone will

49:46

really reflect reality back. Yeah,

49:49

at the cost of potentially of upsetting the person.

49:51

Absolutely, it's a difficult road

49:54

to walk, Yeah, but it's

49:56

really what's necessary. And the

49:59

reason so many successful artists

50:02

work over time tend to diminish

50:04

is because the voices around

50:07

them just start so true. Nodding, Yes,

50:10

we know examples of that happen right now that it's

50:13

tough to it's

50:15

tough to watch when you know you

50:17

love someone's music, but that is the way it

50:20

is. Takes an immense strength

50:22

of character to allow dissident

50:24

voices into your session, and

50:28

mine happens to be in my relationship, which

50:31

is very useful. You know, someone will just be

50:33

like, no, I can't,

50:35

that's not not hitting, or you

50:38

know, keeps you grounded, well, yeah, and or

50:42

just the encouragement of your

50:44

authentic self, you know, tell

50:47

me about the coverage you're working on. Well,

50:50

I've done this DANCEFPP and the next thing is

50:52

that I'm going to be releasing kind

50:54

of studio versions of some of the

50:57

covers I released over the year. When

50:59

I say released, I mean I just played them

51:02

on a whim on ig live streams

51:05

and then they became and then I looked back and go,

51:07

oh, no, that actually, you know, I

51:09

made sort of slightly

51:11

made that on my own, so I'm going to put

51:14

that on this EP. Nice. It started

51:17

as just an opportunity to

51:19

play music live because I didn't have enough

51:21

songs that I wanted to play at the piano because you know,

51:23

a lot of my music stems

51:25

from production exercises in a lot of ways,

51:27

so taking some of those back to the

51:30

back to the keyboard doesn't always work as

51:32

a piano song. So I was like,

51:34

well, you know, then I put out a request

51:36

to fans saying like, you know, what do you want me to hear?

51:39

So we what do you want me to cover? And

51:42

got overwhelmed with responses, read

51:44

through literally all of them and it was thousands and

51:47

genre wise, what were the things that were sent to

51:49

you? Like, what was the spectrum? I mean every

51:51

literally everything, No, there wasn't. There

51:53

wasn't you know, in

51:55

terms of recorded songs, there

51:57

was, There was every genre. But

52:00

the ones I ended up picking out were just Nirvana,

52:04

Stevie one. I mean they were like the heavy hitters really

52:06

of songwriting, because really I was listening for the

52:08

DNA of the songs and could I actually

52:11

perform them. I think I'm attracted

52:13

to the just the same. You

52:16

know. When I say same, I mean I'm attracted

52:18

to pop music. Yeah, that's what my natural

52:21

disposition is to listen to the best pop

52:23

music. And I think the best pop music ever written, the

52:26

Beatles, Nirvana, Billie

52:29

Eilish, some of those songs, you

52:31

know, Stevie Wonder, Frank

52:34

Ocean, Radiohead

52:36

Bill with us. I mean that's like eighteen

52:39

minute. So talk about

52:42

how the live show came together. It's

52:45

some of the best live performances I've ever

52:47

seen I've been thanks to you. Yeah,

52:49

thanks for coming to our shows. Yeah, tell

52:51

me how did it come? Coming

52:54

from a DJ background,

52:56

I would not guess that the show that you

52:58

do would be the show that you do, right,

53:01

because it's not got any

53:04

backing tracks or any sinking

53:06

or anything like that. A lot of reasons,

53:08

A lot of reasons. Yeah,

53:11

it's very specific what you're what

53:13

what I've seen is a very

53:15

specific thing. I don't know anyone else who

53:17

does what you and your group

53:20

do. Yeah, we started noticing those,

53:22

you know, those little SPD pads after

53:25

we It's like a little Roland pad that

53:27

you can hit that you can put samples

53:29

on it. Basically like a like an MPC

53:31

but for drummers. And I

53:34

remember we started using that and then like a couple

53:36

of years later, I started seeing all these other bands with

53:39

this little drum thing, which

53:41

is a small thing, but that's what that's how we got

53:43

away from the computer, is how we got

53:45

away from ableton, from from sinking

53:48

from midi clicks,

53:50

from having to be dependent

53:53

on the pulse of a computer, basically

53:55

because as soon as that happened, we tried it. But

53:57

as soon as it happened, Ben just feel

54:01

the same, and like none of our music stunded the same,

54:03

even though it was different to the records. Like probably

54:05

what would have been most faithful, most faithful to records

54:07

was playing to a midi click with Ben

54:10

with the headphones, and but

54:13

it didn't feel you know,

54:15

I'd done a lot of jamming in bands before.

54:17

I played in a lot of different bands

54:20

before I started making music, just

54:22

like in pubs or at

54:24

school or cover bands,

54:27

like just stuff, you know, like circuit stuff,

54:30

just learning to blend in with other musicians,

54:33

you know, like how to not

54:35

always be sloing, how

54:37

to sometimes hold it down keyboard

54:39

wise, It's like learning

54:41

lead or rhythm guitar. And I

54:44

knew I wanted to play like a band, and actually me, Ben

54:46

and Rob had been in a band at school,

54:49

so I knew what it felt like to play with Ben and

54:51

Rob where we weren't tied to anything. So suddenly

54:53

it just felt like being in strait jackets, so

54:56

we just got away. I was militant

54:59

about anything with

55:02

if there were other apps on this thing, it wasn't

55:04

allowed on stage. Like if you could email

55:06

on it, you're not having it on stage. So

55:09

it became about okay, so how do we So

55:11

we've got the drum pad, We've got these synths. They're

55:14

the ones I used on the record. Rob

55:16

has this magical ability to fill

55:19

in any gap on a record, so like if

55:21

we needed a guitar, that he had

55:23

it. But if we needed a chair, if we needed like

55:27

a sample that had to come in at a certain

55:29

point, he could. He's just very good at multitasking,

55:31

so he could do it all. If we needed a baseline.

55:34

He was playing the Moog Taurus like

55:36

the Taurus three is amazing. I

55:39

used that as the base for Retrograde. So I

55:41

just brought it from home and we used it on tour. So

55:44

I'll say it was expensive. You know,

55:46

I've probably bought six profits

55:49

six of every keyboard to have three

55:51

different rigs over course of time and

55:53

replacements. So every piece of gear

55:55

we've got on stage, I've got three or four or five

55:57

copies of So took

56:00

a while to make money, but you

56:02

know, once you get going, you know, you're a

56:04

self sufficient live act

56:06

that can't go wrong unless one

56:09

of these bits of gear blows up. And even then I can

56:11

just transition something else. It can't

56:13

just stop because of a laptop broke. That's

56:15

the other thing is that we would proof like

56:18

we were completely watertight

56:20

when it came to we can react

56:23

to anything that goes wrong, but a computer can't.

56:25

Yes, and there's nothing worse.

56:27

And I've been on stage when a laptop

56:29

fails, and there's nothing worse than just three

56:32

nerds standing over a laptop screen wondering why

56:34

the music it's not coming out like it. It's just

56:36

the worst image. So I

56:39

just, you know, just just went

56:41

for that. So but yeah, like in terms of how

56:44

we developed the show, it

56:46

was like divvying out part.

56:48

Really it was like, okay, so who can play what? And

56:51

we've got three of us, and if we can't play everything,

56:53

and then we just won't play everything, and maybe the

56:55

sound guy can do a couple of delays, but that's about

56:57

it. So we kind of treated it like a dub

57:00

and in a way like you know, you've got sort

57:02

of our sound guy had to be scientist

57:05

or King Tubby and we were the

57:07

band. Yeah, having seen you live and

57:10

so loving the albums. Once

57:13

I saw you live, it sounded

57:15

like the albums were the demos for

57:17

the live show. That's what it sounds like,

57:19

because I remember you saying, why don't you just record

57:21

the next album? Because it takes on this

57:24

whole other thing that's

57:27

incredible when it's played live, just

57:30

like the added

57:33

human element, well, it's

57:35

all the elements are human rather than just one yes,

57:38

but human element of the

57:40

interaction of rhythm.

57:43

Yeah, do you know what I mean. It's like a conversation rather

57:46

than yes, completely yes,

57:48

because yeah, and it has a different

57:50

life to it that it's thrilling.

57:52

Now, I don't know if that's only because

57:54

I know the

57:57

computer version that

57:59

hearing it released from the straight jacket,

58:01

it's so thrilling. Yeah, I'm

58:03

not sure, but I know that because

58:06

I've I've never heard I don't think I've ever

58:08

heard any of the music live

58:10

before hearing the record, So I don't

58:14

know, but I will say knowing

58:16

the record seeing it live, it's

58:18

only better. It's funny because a lot

58:21

of things, you know, there are

58:23

some songs that i'd feel don't

58:25

get better and there are, and we just choose the

58:27

ones that do. Yeah, And you know a lot of bands

58:29

just have to play the songs that don't translate that well

58:31

live or because they're the big songs, you

58:34

know, or that we've been lucky

58:36

and also we've just sometimes we just play

58:39

the ones that don't translate that well, and

58:41

which you know, we've not always

58:43

made the right choices with songs. But I think I

58:46

feel quite lucky in a way. I would

58:48

like to record an album where it's

58:50

just me, Ben and Roll playing the songs I've written.

58:52

Obviously, that would be a much longer process because

58:54

you've got to write the song, write the album, then learn

58:57

it, then play it, and then produce

58:59

that. Yes, And at the time

59:01

when we were doing Current Anything, I remember you suggesting it, I

59:03

was just like, I don't actually have time. I don't think I've got the

59:05

headspace to be able to do that. I don't have the time,

59:09

potentially the money because

59:11

you know it's not cheap. And then

59:13

also I don't have the I

59:15

don't have any life force left. Like

59:18

I just was like drained, I was

59:20

dying. I felt like I was dying. Someday,

59:24

I hope we get to do that, Yeah, And

59:26

the way to do it is to

59:29

essentially finish the album. Yeah,

59:32

you would do exactly the same thing. What you do, know

59:34

is you finish an album and then you decide how you're

59:36

going to play it live, and then you play it live. Right.

59:39

The only difference will be when

59:41

the record comes out exactly but the process will

59:43

be exactly the same. Everything will be exactly

59:45

the same. And to have that presence of

59:47

mind to be like that's going to be the

59:50

way it goes, then yes, But I

59:52

think the time when you're becoming attached

59:54

to all these demos, all these all these

59:56

songs, yes, and the way they're produced

59:58

and the way they sound and the where they hit, and it's like

1:00:01

I was just becoming so attached to the production

1:00:04

of these things I couldn't allow. But

1:00:06

then the other thing is that I quite enjoyed the

1:00:08

fresh lease of life it gets when it becomes

1:00:11

a live adaptation.

1:00:14

Absolutely. I quite enjoyed having this thing

1:00:16

at home that sounds like that, and then being able to

1:00:18

take this very organic thing on the road

1:00:21

and its feeling different

1:00:23

and it being a surprise to people rather than

1:00:25

it just sounding note for note the same thing as they've just heard

1:00:27

at home. Do you ever learn anything about the songs when

1:00:29

you play them live? Does your relationship

1:00:32

to the music change? And I sing them differently?

1:00:34

And actually I sing the melodies

1:00:36

slightly differently live. But it's

1:00:38

funny how we adapt like sometimes and even

1:00:41

be an improvisation one night that you

1:00:43

get used to and then you just start doing it that way

1:00:45

and then you just think that's how it goes. Yeah,

1:00:47

it's like a lie that I started to believe. And

1:00:50

that's great. That's kind of fine as well, because ultimately,

1:00:54

you know, sometimes when you hear a musician sing

1:00:56

a song, like a Tommy York or whatever, and

1:00:58

you're like, I know this record inside out,

1:01:00

so when he sings it, it's it's

1:01:03

going to have to chime in with the exact thing

1:01:05

that I've got in my mind. And when they sing it differently,

1:01:08

could be just because they've almost

1:01:10

Chinese whispered themselves over

1:01:12

the course of two tours and

1:01:15

now it sounds like this. And it's nice

1:01:17

to see the iterations of these songs

1:01:19

over the years and how how musicians

1:01:22

reidentify with the songs, and you

1:01:24

know, it's like Joni Mitchell, she actually came

1:01:26

to see us at the Troubadour, which

1:01:28

I probably told you about before, but it was an unbelievable

1:01:31

moment. I remember her telling me that when she originally

1:01:33

wrote Case Review, she didn't know

1:01:35

how to tell the story, even

1:01:38

though she had told the story in the lyrics and the

1:01:40

on the record. But she told me that she as

1:01:42

she got older, she became a better storyteller

1:01:45

in her delivery, and she

1:01:47

now knew the correct

1:01:49

emotion behind the things she'd

1:01:51

written, almost like it would It

1:01:54

was disembodied of that in the first

1:01:56

inclination, but as she got

1:01:58

older, it was imbued

1:02:00

with real depth

1:02:03

and you know, just emotion.

1:02:05

And I think that's happened

1:02:07

in some ways to some of the songs I've written,

1:02:09

where I've realized their meaning way

1:02:11

after I wrote them, maybe because when you're

1:02:13

writing them, it's coming more from the subconscious,

1:02:16

so it's almost like a dream that you can

1:02:18

reflect on later, Like the time

1:02:20

you wake up from a dream, it just seems like surreal,

1:02:23

but if you look back years later, it's like,

1:02:25

oh, that meant I know exactly

1:02:27

what that meant exactly. Yeah, there's that.

1:02:29

And also I think maybe that it's an

1:02:31

intellectualization in the moment, unless

1:02:34

you were just freestyling lyrics straight

1:02:36

from the subconscious, it would be difficult

1:02:38

to not premeditate these lyrics.

1:02:40

I mean it is they are by definition premeditated.

1:02:43

So you know, there's

1:02:45

a sense that you've intellectualized

1:02:47

what you feel, and therefore there

1:02:49

is a natural dis embodiment

1:02:52

from the feeling to the lyric in

1:02:54

your explanation of it. It may not always

1:02:56

be perfect, and that is

1:02:58

our job, in a way, is to articulate.

1:03:01

But then later on,

1:03:04

once you know the lyrics, once you they're

1:03:06

in you and you'll never forget them their muscle

1:03:09

memory, then the

1:03:11

feeling can come through them

1:03:14

much easier. So the first time I ever

1:03:16

sing songs, I'm not reagod at singing them. They

1:03:18

don't come out feeling integral

1:03:21

or authentic. It's when I've sung

1:03:23

them for a couple of years or even ten

1:03:25

years, that's when you're like,

1:03:27

oh, he's now a conduit.

1:03:29

Those those lyrics are a conjuit

1:03:32

the for what's going on, beautiful,

1:03:34

Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, I mean,

1:03:37

it's absolutely my pleasure I've

1:03:39

made. I honestly seeing you again and

1:03:42

actually in the place where we recorded,

1:03:44

covering anything I

1:03:46

have been having almost I mean, honestly,

1:03:49

it's so pivotal for me to come back here again,

1:03:51

and you know where

1:03:53

my relationship started, where my album

1:03:56

was made, where I went through all those changes,

1:03:58

and in front of you and with

1:04:01

in some ways, with your guidance and with

1:04:04

what's happened. Since it's so big for me to

1:04:06

come back here, and it feels so

1:04:08

good, and I think it's

1:04:10

almost felt like therapy. It's

1:04:12

just unlocked a couple a little like oh

1:04:14

yeah, and then and then that and then you

1:04:17

know, and then I've been talking

1:04:19

about but this because I've been almost piecing

1:04:21

together memories and and going,

1:04:23

oh, this is really important, beautiful.

1:04:26

You know, I'm so happy to be

1:04:28

on the journey with you. Thanks having me on. Yeah,

1:04:34

thanks to James Blake for sharing so much of

1:04:36

his journey and creative process with Rick.

1:04:39

You can hear all of our favorite James Blake songs

1:04:41

and I playlist at Broken record podcast

1:04:43

dot com, along with the original songs

1:04:45

that he covered on his new ep and

1:04:47

be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at

1:04:49

YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcasts,

1:04:52

where we can find extended cuts of our new

1:04:54

and old episodes Broken

1:04:57

Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason

1:04:59

Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric

1:05:01

Sandler and his executive produced

1:05:03

by me a Little Bell. Broken Record is

1:05:05

a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like

1:05:08

Broken Record, please remember to share, rate,

1:05:10

and review our show on your podcast. Aff

1:05:12

Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond

1:05:15

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