0:15

Pushkin. John

0:27

Hyatt is a Nashville based singer songwriter

0:29

whose songs have been covered by a wide

0:32

range of popular artists, including

0:34

Iggy Pop, Paula Duel and

0:36

Jimmy Buffett, Missus

0:38

Sip of Bone Boom, and

0:42

A Middle of the Night Bugs,

0:49

Flying every Well, Crazy

0:53

Against Stage Online. Hyatt

0:56

signed his first record deal in nineteen seventy

0:58

four, and in the years since he's

1:01

released twenty four albums. His

1:03

latest Leftover Feelings, he recorded

1:05

with the Jerry Douglas band. Douglas,

1:08

who's feigned producer and session musician,

1:11

as one fourteen Grammys for solo work

1:13

and collaborations that they slew of successful

1:16

musicians. He's also known as one

1:18

of the foremost masters of the dough bro

1:20

an instrument similar to the lapsteal guitar.

1:24

On today's episode, John Hyatt and

1:26

Jerry Douglas performed three songs off

1:28

their new album and talk to Bruce Head them

1:30

about how they came together to record that album

1:33

and the studio that's known as the birthplace

1:35

of the Nashville Sad. John

1:37

Hyatt also explains how one of his new

1:39

songs helped him forgive the horrific

1:42

abuse he endor from his older brother when

1:44

he was growing up. This

1:49

is broken record liner notes for the digital

1:51

age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's

1:58

Bruce Head them with John Hyatt and Jerry

2:00

Douglas. Tell me a bit

2:03

about you hadn't worked together. I don't think he'd

2:05

worked directly together before. How

2:07

did it even come about that you were working

2:09

together? Jerry? How in

2:11

the hell did we wind up with each other? Well,

2:14

we're both suddenly under the same

2:16

managerial umbrella. Our

2:18

managers got together and talked and said, well, why

2:20

don't those guys do a record together? They

2:23

know each other, Why haven't they ever recorded

2:25

together? And we actually have recorded

2:27

together on the second

2:29

circle be Unbroken Record. I

2:32

was in the house band that played

2:34

every day and John came through with Roseanne

2:36

Cash. We did a song

2:38

for that and Jerry was, yeah, Jerry

2:41

played with everybody. Yeah, so we

2:43

were We did do that, and we've

2:45

done each other for a long time and had some great

2:47

conversations. When it came up, I thought,

2:49

yeah, that'd be great man. Who wouldn't want to do

2:51

it? Record with John Hyatt anyway? So

2:54

I felt the same way. I was excited about

2:56

the ideas idea of playing with you

2:59

know the man who was

3:02

the logical next prince

3:04

of the Dobroud Taylor

3:06

to Older

3:09

and Josh Grays, and then you

3:11

have Jerry Douglas Boom.

3:13

Now did you come in with all

3:16

the songs ready to go or

3:18

was it were you picking through songs and looking

3:20

through files? And I sent Jerry

3:23

about fifteen tunes, a

3:25

couple of older ones, one

3:27

of which we did on the record, a song called

3:29

Little good Night, which I wrote when my thirty

3:31

three year old daughter was born, but I

3:33

had never recorded it, so that was kind of fun.

3:36

And then we redid a song All

3:38

the Lilacs in Ohio, which was on a

3:40

record I put out in two thousand and three. Everything

3:43

else was relatively new, About five

3:45

or six of them I wrote, I'd call them pandemic

3:48

songs. We were both ready

3:50

to do the record and everything, and one

3:52

of the cool things, especially for

3:55

me, is we were going to use my band is

3:57

going to be on the tour and did

3:59

all the recording as well with John,

4:02

so it just gave him a completely a

4:04

different twist on John Hyatt.

4:06

We didn't know what it was gonna sound like either, which I was

4:09

very excited about. Of course, we never do really, but

4:11

I'm interested when you did you Know all the Lilacs,

4:13

which is, as you said, a song about almost

4:16

twenty years old. I mean, who said we

4:18

got to do that song and put it

4:20

in a very different It's still fast, it's still

4:22

got a lot of energy, but it's very different setting.

4:25

Well. I sent it to Jeried because I talked with him

4:27

in his band, you know, fiddle and upright bass

4:29

and dobro, that it would really lend itself

4:31

to the song. And I felt like the song,

4:34

although I thought it was a successful

4:36

recording for what it was, but I felt like the

4:38

story in the song it might have gotten a little

4:41

lost. This to me, is a little

4:43

more focused in terms of being able to follow

4:45

this story, which was basically an

4:47

idea I stole from one of my favorite

4:49

movies, Lost Weekend, and

4:51

it was actually a line in the movie Ray

4:53

in the land talking to Sam

4:56

and the bartender telling him. Ray

4:58

plays a drunk who wants to write weren't

5:01

we all? And don't we all want to? We've

5:04

been through that part too. Yeah.

5:07

He talks about this girl he's just met. They're

5:09

in New York City and he says, you know, I

5:12

go to see her and the sunlight

5:14

hits the gray of the drain pipe on her building.

5:16

And then she can't meet me at the

5:19

assigned time, but she sends a note down

5:21

to be given to me by the doorman, and

5:24

I opened it and it smells like all the lilacs

5:26

in Ohio? Is that right? Is that what that came

5:28

from? Yeah? I didn't do that. Oh

5:30

that's it's so beautiful. It's

5:32

a beautiful story. And I'm from Ohio

5:35

and I never saw any lilacs in Ohio,

5:37

so I really was concerned. Yeah,

5:40

you should just be stealing songs from

5:42

old movies, because like those old kind of tough

5:44

guy ben Hecked dialogue.

5:47

Listen, I'll steal from anywhere, any

5:49

idea there's laying about. So

5:52

when you heard the songs, Jerry, now you've

5:54

produced a lot of records, But what did

5:56

you think, said? I mean, you knew it was going to be your band, But

5:58

did a certain sound, at a kind of atmosphere

6:01

come to mind when you were going through the songs? Well,

6:03

yeah, I always thought of us

6:05

the band as an electric band. I

6:08

mean, I didn't take away. We're making

6:10

a record with John Hyatt, We're gonna sound

6:12

like John Hyatt. You know, we're

6:14

just gonna be chameleons and tap

6:17

into whatever it is that he's

6:19

hearing here, and we're just gonna

6:21

give it legs. The song All

6:24

the Lilacs in Ohio. I've

6:26

heard it as like a sing along for

6:29

a lot of people in an audience,

6:31

you know, when it gets to the line all the

6:33

Lilacs in Ohio, and

6:36

it's a real easy thing for people to

6:38

pick up and attach themselves to sing it,

6:40

you know, sing it loud. I love to be a great live

6:43

concert kind of song. I always kind

6:45

of try to imagine us on stage

6:47

playing songs for somebody. Well,

6:50

that's interesting because it's pretty much all

6:52

we did in the studio. Well, they were live

6:54

performances. I played and sang live.

6:57

What you what I played is what you got. Yeah.

6:59

The studio that we recorded in our CEA

7:02

studio Beat was one of the first real

7:04

recording studios in Nashville. It's

7:06

owned by the Country Music Hall of Fame and let

7:09

us go in there and record there, And people

7:11

don't usually record in there anymore. They

7:13

run tourists through there. So we got in

7:15

during COVID, so there were no tourists, so nobody

7:18

to bother us, and we didn't have to tear down or

7:20

anything. And so we just set up and recorded.

7:23

But like nine months after

7:25

we were supposed to. They gave us

7:27

four days. We made

7:29

the record in four days, did a few overdubs

7:32

later, but the basic records was done,

7:34

afforded. Is that the fastest you've ever done a

7:36

record, It's tied Bring the Family

7:38

was four days. It's a really good way to

7:40

do it. That's a good omen. So you

7:43

don't have time to overthink anything, that's for sure.

7:45

Yeah. Well you did the last one, Bring

7:47

the Family. You did with Nicolo, who's famous for

7:50

not overthinking things. Yeah, No, he's

7:53

no overthinker. Yeah, he's

7:55

an underthinker. That

7:58

could be his next album, could be Nicolo

8:01

the Underthinker. Yeah. Yeah,

8:04

that was where he got his nickname, the Basher. His

8:07

motto was bash it down, tarted up. That's

8:09

how he made record, bash it down, tarted

8:12

up. But you didn't tart this one up. You just bashed

8:14

it down. Now we bashed it down pretty much,

8:16

well, Jerry. They did a bit of tarting. They did Christian

8:19

Stellemer and Daniel and

8:22

put a little string section. These guys what

8:25

blows my mind on Jerry's band is these guys.

8:27

These are young guys who are

8:29

schooled musicians, and

8:32

they can play anything. I mean,

8:34

Jerry hasn't playing jazz We're goodness say,

8:36

but they can play songs, and

8:39

that's to me, that's

8:41

a rare combination. They come from

8:43

a country music background, you know,

8:46

sort of so they've played with

8:48

country musicians. In country

8:50

musicians sort of backup vocals

8:52

in a different way than in

8:55

a rock and roll tune or you know, any

8:57

other kind of music. You really listen to

8:59

the singer and you try to emote as

9:02

the singer does and try

9:04

to accent the

9:07

phrases that are really important in

9:09

the line. And you know, there're just some

9:12

some unwritten rules about

9:14

how we do that here, especially

9:16

internationale. Yeah, it's true, it's very

9:18

true. And that's what happened. I mean, I

9:20

felt like I was playing with a group of

9:22

singers or just painting around

9:24

him. Well, that's that's interesting because when

9:27

I think of you're playing, Jerry, you

9:29

know, you are this virtuoso. You're

9:32

the world's best best known dobro

9:34

player. You're not to the dobro

9:37

with like Eric Clapton is to the guitar.

9:39

You're not going off on your own, or maybe

9:41

you do and I just don't haven't heard it, but

9:43

I almost feel like I think I remember.

9:46

I can remember the first song I heard you play on. It was

9:48

I don't Believe I've Met my Baby with Alison Kraus,

9:50

and I can still remember that solo. If I could

9:52

sing, I could sing it for you. But you have

9:54

this very kind of melodic it's

9:56

not background. But how do you compliment

9:59

what's the singers doing with your

10:02

and not overpower the singer

10:04

with what you're doing. I'll tell you he

10:06

had ten thousand hours of schooling

10:09

in the Nashville session tradition. It's

10:11

a discipline, it is, actually

10:13

yeah, yeah, there are you know, don't

10:15

step on the singer, you know, stay stay

10:18

out of the singer's range. You

10:20

know, don't detract. So there's this

10:22

thing, you know, that this sound spectrum

10:25

that you don't want to cancel anything out, so

10:27

you don't want to get up in the singer's range. You kind

10:29

of stay away from the singer and stay around

10:31

the singer and sometimes

10:34

playing nothing, playing and playing

10:37

nothing can can speak volumes,

10:39

you know, instead of playing notes.

10:42

So when you say his range. You literally mean

10:44

his vocal range. You stay out of the

10:46

vocal range. Yeah, oh, I didn't. I've never

10:48

heard that. You play above a blow. Where

10:51

I learned that was from Brian or Hearne,

10:53

who produced Emmy Lou Harris's

10:56

first records, and I was doing an

10:58

overdub for Brian and he said,

11:00

that's all great, except he said, stay

11:02

out of her range because you know, you

11:04

get up there, we don't know which one of you it

11:06

is, you know, and you might cancel out at

11:09

or something that she sings, and so stay away

11:12

from that little box that she's

11:14

in and it works.

11:16

Wow, I'd never heard that.

11:19

That's completely fascinating. He's

11:21

brilliant. I mean, Brian or hearn Canadian

11:23

Toronto guy and just

11:26

amazing producer. But after

11:29

the Emmy Lou stuff pretty much he's kind

11:31

of stopped producing. He was amazing

11:33

and I learned a lot from him. Ricky Skaggs,

11:35

did Rodney kraw all of the

11:37

guys that surrounded, you know, in the Emmy Lou Harris

11:40

or but we all learned how to make

11:42

records from Brian. Yeah,

11:45

he's just a genius. I just feel

11:47

that you've given me some secret that should

11:49

be locked up somewhere. It seems

11:51

like everybody kind of knows it, but it's unseid.

11:54

And when you say it out loud, you know,

11:56

stay out of the singer's range. You

11:58

used to listen to records and you hear

12:00

that. You know, that's why you can hear what the singer

12:03

is saying. As a singer and songwriter,

12:05

from my point of view, I can tell you that

12:08

there's plenty of me musicians who do

12:10

not go And

12:14

as Jerry was big, and I was thinking, you know, it's

12:17

not like he doesn't hit a note that

12:19

I've sang at some point in a song, it's just

12:21

where he does it. Do

12:24

you guys want to play a song now? And then we'll keep talking.

12:26

Does that make a great idea? We'll play

12:28

your song. Here's the

12:31

lilac, the famous lilacs from

12:33

Ohio that aren't in Ohio. You

12:52

man her there on a

12:54

New York City stre you were

12:56

throw lean upon your

12:58

shoe, trying to

13:01

write the great book, but it really

13:03

had you shoot with a bad

13:05

case of win a time blue.

13:09

You drank her down to the

13:11

ragged samtime share

13:13

the taxi to carry her

13:15

home, and she left

13:18

her handkerchief there beside

13:20

you on the seat, as if to emphasize

13:22

that you were all alone, smelled

13:26

like springtime, and you were just

13:28

a boy, and all

13:30

the lilac sino Hi,

13:34

All the lilac sino hi.

13:37

There you go in the city streets,

13:40

in the thirty winter snow, all

13:43

the lilacs sino Hi,

13:46

hil. She is the

13:48

love story you speak

13:51

up when you talk to Sam

13:53

at the bar, But

13:55

it's in the details. Your

13:58

story always fails me. Your

14:00

close but no cigar, And

14:04

you might see your own ass

14:06

in a double whiskey glass, but

14:09

cannot erase her smile.

14:12

And you'll never write it down, never

14:15

find her in this town the fanom

14:18

dreams and fingernail fires.

14:21

It was springtime and you are

14:23

just a boy. And

14:25

all the lilacs seen, or how

14:30

all the lights seen, nor

14:32

how in

14:34

the city streets and the dirt and winter

14:37

slow, all the

14:39

lilacs see RhI. So

15:00

you beIN her handkerchief till

15:02

clean white linen shoots, and you

15:04

want make your beIN crawling

15:08

you imagining her there, and

15:11

you're tangled in her hair, and

15:13

she smells like flowers,

15:18

and it's springtime, and you are just

15:20

a boy. And how

15:22

the Lilacs FINOHI?

15:26

How the lilaxino Hi?

15:29

There you go in the city streets

15:32

and a doted winter snow. How

15:35

the lilaxino Hi?

15:38

Hi. That's

15:59

John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas with All

16:01

the Lilacs in Ohio from their

16:03

new album Left Over Feelings. We'll

16:06

be back with more after a quick break.

16:12

We're back with more from John Hyatt and Jerry

16:14

Douglas. On a previous show

16:17

that Malcolm and Rip did with

16:20

Jack White, Jack White

16:22

said you could never you

16:25

could never write a good song about a tesla

16:30

old contrary, Jackie, Well,

16:32

then you always had to write about Oh you

16:34

know, why is it we have to write about old technology?

16:37

But then you wrote the first

16:39

the first song on this album, which is Dynamite,

16:42

isn't about an electric Cadillac. Maybe because it's

16:44

not a tesla, it's a Cadillac. What made

16:47

you want to write a song about an electric car? Well,

16:49

first off, writing in a song about a Cadillac

16:52

is sort of in my dna. I

16:54

guess I've probably written a couple it's

16:56

dreaming. You know who who wouldn't want an

16:58

electric Cadillac that goes a thousand miles

17:01

between charges. Bring it on, you

17:03

know, I'll order one if you

17:06

know. If I got the dough, I want an old

17:08

one with an electric motor. World. Sure

17:11

we can retro fit. I'm thinking about

17:13

it now. Jack whites it. He's from

17:15

Detroit. He shouldn't even say the word tesla. That's

17:17

probably well, I mean point taken

17:20

and Jack Jack, I get it. I get what he's

17:22

saying absolutely. But it is true that a

17:24

lot of the technology, like you know, there's still trained

17:26

songs because people used to tell the time

17:29

before they watches by the trains. They

17:31

still sing train songs. But everybody's got to watch

17:33

now. In fact, nobody has to watch because everybody

17:35

has a phone. And I can't think of a good country

17:37

song about a cell phone that's interesting.

17:40

You'd bring up trains. When I first

17:42

came here in nineteen seventy, I lived on Music

17:44

Row. In those days it was a much

17:47

more humble business, and all

17:49

the publishing companies, all the riot songwriters

17:51

houses were next door to the publishing

17:53

companies, which were in houses, and a lot

17:55

of the studios were in houses. Coming

17:58

from Indianapolis, I had had no clue what

18:00

a country, how to write a country song, or even what

18:02

you know. I mean, I knew about Hank Williams, and I was about

18:04

it. But I got a deal with a publishing

18:06

company and I was in a house full of young,

18:10

hopeful songwriters and I remember

18:12

asking this kid from Birmingham. I said, so, how

18:15

do you write a country song? Because he was

18:17

you know, that was his thing. And

18:19

he said, well, you're gonna

18:21

need a train song, train

18:25

song, a murder ballad, something

18:27

to do with the fire. Did you write a train

18:30

song? Then? I did train to Birmingham

18:32

and I wrote it when I was nineteen. You know, it's

18:34

really because of this guy, Richard, I can't think of his

18:36

last name. Why did you show up to Nashville

18:38

to be a songwriter if you couldn't write a country song?

18:41

I had met a guy named Bob Frank

18:43

who was in Nashville, but he

18:45

was from Memphis and he was a folk singer. He

18:48

had a deal with Tree Publishing company. I met him

18:50

the year before I moved here, passing

18:52

through Nashville. He said, man, you got to

18:54

come down here. This is a good place. And

18:56

so I went home and spent the

18:58

year kind of trying to get a

19:00

little dough together and eighteen. I

19:03

came down to Nashville and a thirty five dollars

19:05

corvet that I bought from a buddy

19:08

burned five quarts of oil on the way down.

19:11

It's only a three hundred mile trip, and

19:14

check the gas and fill it up with oil. That

19:17

was it. And I came down here and

19:19

I went to different publishing companies the

19:21

first few days, and I made a tape

19:23

which I thought was my opus, you

19:25

know, where I played all the instruments and we bounced

19:28

them back between two Wallen

19:30

Sack stereotape recorders I had. Buddy

19:32

had a pair of them, and so I made

19:34

my masterpiece and I brought it to Nashville.

19:37

But it was all these bad songs, terrible

19:39

songs, trying to kind of be a rock

19:41

guy. I played him for three or four companies

19:43

and struck out, and I saved

19:45

the publishing company that Bob Frank wrote

19:48

for. I saved it till last Tree Tree

19:50

Publishing, and I called the guy and

19:53

said, you know, I'd like to for you to listen

19:55

to some of my stuff. And he said, do you have a tape?

19:58

And I did, but I lied and I said, nope, I

20:00

don't have a tape because it wouldn't get me anywhere. I

20:02

said, I'll have to come in and play him. This

20:05

turned out to be Larry Henley, who was

20:07

the lead singer for the was at the New

20:09

Beach or the I Like Bread and Butter, remember

20:11

that song I love? Yeah,

20:15

he worked for Tree, So that was

20:17

the guy that I called. And he said, well, okay,

20:19

it's it. We don't usually do that, but come on in. And

20:22

I sat down and sign him three or four songs.

20:24

And I have no idea why they

20:27

decided to sign me because

20:29

it was just quirky singer songwriter,

20:31

weird stuff, didn't have anything to do with

20:33

what's going on in Nashville. They were refreshed

20:36

by that. Apparently, I don't know, but

20:38

it was not good stuff. But God bless

20:40

him. He brought the boss down, Bud. He killed

20:42

him, and they said, well, what do you want?

20:44

And I remember what Bob was getting

20:47

as an advanced weekly advance, and

20:49

I said, I want twenty five dollars a week. Yeah,

20:51

I said, They said, okay, so

20:56

I was a professional songwriter. Wow, And

20:58

I thought i'd you know, I thought I'd made

21:00

it for Christ's sake? Was it a good life? Did

21:02

you like it. It's where I learned. I

21:05

put in what's Malcolm's thing

21:07

about ten? I mean

21:09

I started the ten Thousand Hours when I was eleven,

21:11

but I was really started working on it

21:13

when I got here. But you probably met a

21:15

lot of people once you got here that

21:18

turned you onto hod It. Oh absolutely.

21:20

I mean there was a guy Bobby Braddock wrote

21:22

for Tree at the time. When he wrote, you

21:24

know, he stopped loving d I V

21:26

O. RC and, but he was a

21:29

character, a lovely guy, and he

21:31

was sort of my little mentor. You know, he sort

21:33

of patted me on the shoulder and you know, kind of like,

21:35

you know, those quirked little songs are right, It's okay,

21:37

just keep riding, keep riding.

21:39

Yeah, he's been on the show two or three times. I think

21:42

he's like, he's pretty amazing. Yeah, incredible

21:44

guy. I want to talk about your next

21:46

song on that because and I'm gonna go through every

21:48

song, but I thought it was so great after long

21:51

Black Electric Cadillac, that you have a song

21:53

called Mississippi Phone Booth that you

21:55

know is not in the present day, because

21:59

well, maybe maybe I haven't been to the Mississippi.

22:01

Maybe there are a lot of phone booths there still, but I doubt

22:04

it. I doubt there's even one. If there

22:06

is a place with hass phone booths, it's in

22:08

mississip Tell me about that song,

22:10

how it came about. It was one of those COVID

22:12

songs. I was reflecting as

22:15

when you hit my age, you tend to do. There's

22:17

more behind you than there is in front of you, so they

22:19

tell me. But anyway, I remembered

22:22

sort of my last my last drunk,

22:25

which was a spree, and I was

22:27

down south. I

22:29

had come to Nashville, made a record that I don't

22:31

remember making, and then I rented

22:33

a car. I brought

22:36

a gal over from Holland,

22:38

who I met, and

22:40

I said, I'm going to show you the South, and

22:42

we drove around. We drove to New

22:45

Orleans, so we drove to a coast

22:47

of Mississippi, Gulf Coast. I

22:49

was drinking quartz of vodka

22:52

and twenty four packs of beer, and I

22:54

had eight balls of cocaine being sent to

22:56

me from my dealer in Nashville. And then

22:59

I couldn't stop or weeping, and I

23:02

couldn't get drunk anymore, and I couldn't

23:04

get high anymore. It was the most amazing

23:06

thing. It just this girls sitting there

23:08

like, what the hell am I even doing it? You know

23:10

who what swallow this guy? And so

23:13

anyway, I just it culminated

23:15

at three in the morning at a phone

23:17

booth at a gas station with the just

23:20

just as that opening verse states

23:22

bugs everywhere the gas station

23:24

light and basically trying to call

23:27

home. I was I was married, it's time for going to

23:30

say it's kind of quality

23:32

life. I was hurting and time,

23:35

but I called home and said I'm done. I like the

23:37

line where you say tell Jesus I'm out

23:39

at times. That is

23:41

a great just a great line. And

23:43

maybe this is why songs about modern technology

23:46

aren't as interesting because they don't connect people

23:48

in the same way you're talking to an operator,

23:50

which I thought, yeah, so lovely.

23:53

Well, you know how how it went on the long distance

23:55

calls on the old phone booths. They did interrupt you when

23:57

you when your tie is up, and I'd be like, oh

23:59

wait shit, I don't love the sorry

24:03

conversation over. I think the most atmospheric

24:06

song on the album is I Keep wanting to say

24:08

I'm in Nashville. It's I'm in Asheville.

24:10

It was titled differently. I originally

24:13

titled the song left Over Feelings, but the chorus,

24:15

of course, is in Asheville. Yeah,

24:17

another winner of a fella in that

24:20

one. I love that guy. We're leaving somebody

24:22

and saying I've messed

24:24

up, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. At the same

24:26

time he's driving away, he's

24:29

kicking himself in the ass, but he can't stop

24:31

doing it. Tell me, just as an example,

24:34

Jerry, when you sat down to produce that, do

24:36

you have an idea immediately when you heard the song?

24:38

This is how it should sound, This is how

24:40

I want the instruments to move in and out. Or

24:43

is this just something you'd sit down and people start

24:45

playing in the studio. I think we sat

24:47

down with the band and we just started playing.

24:49

We write charts, okay, we

24:51

write, we write out these musical charts. In

24:54

Nashville, it's a number of system So I

24:56

sat down with a band and we just started

24:58

playing the song, and it got this sound

25:00

all on its own. Mike Seal was playing electric

25:03

guitar, and he had this really beautiful tone

25:05

going on, and and all

25:07

of these things were really beautiful

25:10

against this song that's so

25:12

sad and so you want to

25:15

grab this guy, you know, and straighten

25:17

him out the whole time. But there's this really

25:20

placid music, you know, underneath

25:22

it, and it's beautiful. The song itself

25:25

is the chord structor, and everything

25:27

is just really beautiful. And we just played

25:29

did that. We didn't really pay

25:31

attention to the lyrics so much.

25:34

We separated ourselves from the lyrics

25:36

and just laid down this

25:39

nice bed of music for these

25:42

words, for these heartfelt words

25:44

to lie upon. Yeah, it sounds like

25:46

a collective ache that you guys

25:48

made. Do you respond one of the lyrics

25:50

on faster songs, because you've got a couple almost

25:53

rockabilly songs where you guys

25:55

are louder and kind of rocking out a little more. Yeah,

25:58

this song dictated that we stay

26:00

to the ground and not jump up, you know,

26:02

no erratic behavior. It

26:05

went on the rockabilly kind of you know, the

26:07

faster songs and with and we

26:09

are listening to the words. I didn't mean that.

26:11

We just divorced ourselves completely,

26:14

hurting my feeling. Yeah, I knew that. I

26:16

saw the look on your face, so I'm straighten

26:18

to say the words they were great too. Their

26:21

words were good too, But we were words

26:24

the faster songs. Yeah, you are listening

26:26

to the words to get clues about what to

26:28

do, about how to play against it. We

26:30

should we should play that song. That would be great.

26:45

I'm in Ashville. I'm

26:47

sorry. I

26:49

guess I really dropped

26:51

the ball in

26:58

this game we were played.

27:02

I thought I giving it my just

27:11

to get us back to zeal

27:15

Or on some scoreboarding here.

27:23

I'm in Ashfield. I'm

27:25

sorry all

27:29

throwing in the town. That's

27:37

sunlight ruled the mountain.

27:41

I'm the rain. It chased me down.

27:49

I could feel the heat from

27:51

your face. Lord

27:54

almost turned around.

28:02

There's some things you can't

28:04

come back from.

28:07

If there's some things you won't go

28:09

through. I'm

28:15

in ashfil I'm sorry.

28:20

I wanted this with you on

28:54

road. I never travel

28:58

to a place I never

29:00

been from

29:06

the east, left old feeling.

29:11

A vision of you comes up

29:13

again and

29:19

you're dancing by the

29:22

radio in

29:24

some hotel room. In my

29:26

mind, I'm

29:33

in Ashfield. I'm sorry

29:37

for leaving you behind.

29:45

Oh, I'm in Ashville. I'm

29:47

sorry for

29:51

leaving you behind. That's

30:04

amazing. It occurs to me that

30:06

I think one reason I love that song is

30:09

you don't actually say anything about Asheville.

30:14

Do you know what I mean? It's like usually people say, well,

30:18

I'm not even going to ask you what Asheville means

30:20

to you, because it's I don't want

30:22

to wreck it for other people. But I love

30:24

those songs that are about cities, but they don't say anything like

30:26

I'm in this city because it's cold, it's raindy reminds

30:29

me. It's it's like, um, that's

30:31

how I got to Memphis by Tom T. Hall.

30:33

It's like that you don't know anything about.

30:36

It's just it's just like if you got a broken heart and stuff,

30:38

well that's how I got to Memphis, and you're like okay.

30:40

And it's also got the I'm going to get this wrong.

30:42

Some things you can't get back from. Some

30:45

things you can't come back from. If there's some things

30:47

you won't go through, that seems

30:49

to me the theme of almost the entire album.

30:51

To me, Well, I didn't.

30:53

I don't mean that in a funny way. I mean, so

30:56

many of the narrators in this album are people

30:59

they're thinking back or they're trying to go back to things

31:02

and for whatever reason, they can't get there. And

31:04

you've been through a lot, but you have to

31:06

go through these things. First. There's a lot of regret

31:09

on the album about not being able to go back.

31:11

Were you thinking that when you were writing

31:13

it. I think it's less about regretting,

31:16

just more about pointing that out. I

31:19

mean, some of us look at where where

31:21

we've come. A lot of it's look at how how

31:23

far we've come. That's really the story.

31:25

At the end of the day, we're gonna take a quick

31:27

break and then we'll be back with more

31:30

of Bruce Headlam's conversation with John Hyatt

31:32

and Jerry Douglas. We're

31:43

back with the rest of Bruce Headlam's conversation with

31:45

John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas, and

31:48

just a quick heads up. There's talk of sexual

31:50

assault in this next section. Tell

31:53

me about light of a Bringing Sun. Yeah,

31:55

that's pretty much just an accounting

31:57

of my brothers. He

32:00

took his own life when he was

32:02

twenty one. I was He

32:05

was the oldest of seven kids, and I was the

32:07

next to youngest, so I was eleven.

32:10

It's like any kind of traumatic event in a person's

32:12

life. I've sort of dealt with it,

32:14

you know, as I've

32:17

gone through life. I was relieved

32:19

when I wrote the song you have to kind of get

32:22

some help and work on these things. But

32:25

I'm reminded of what Guy Clarke used to say about

32:27

his songs. And he played a song and

32:29

we'd go, oh man, you know, we'd be stunned, and

32:31

he'd go, yeah, you can't make that shit up.

32:35

So and so

32:37

this was one that you can't

32:40

make that shit up. It's just a pretty

32:42

much just at accounting. Why do you

32:44

think it took you this long to

32:47

to want to write that song? Things

32:49

come when they come, and it was such a

32:51

as I say, it was such a relief to write it,

32:53

and I think I've done some work. You know, the

32:55

family basically blew apart. It's like

32:57

it says in a song, family basically exploded,

33:00

as families will when when a child

33:03

takes his own life, or even that child that dies.

33:06

And I didn't really know about

33:08

recording it, to be honest with you, but I had sent the

33:10

song to Jerry, so I must have thought that

33:13

it was something to consider. Glad you did. But

33:15

anyway, Jerry, I said, Jerry, I don't know about

33:17

that. I think I called you after I sent the songs. I said,

33:20

you know, I don't know about that. A lot of the burning,

33:22

so it was pretty dark. I said that people

33:24

need to hear this song. It is very

33:27

very personal. I mean there are things down

33:29

to you know, found him

33:31

in a cornfield

33:34

and the line that Reedy

33:37

got me and the song was talking

33:39

about what his father did,

33:42

selling uh burn orange and avocado

33:45

kitchens all across the Midwest. I

33:47

mean we've all been in houses that had

33:50

those, you know, an

33:52

avocado refrigerator or stove

33:55

or hey, but he built one. He put one

33:57

in for my mom. That's right. Yeah,

33:59

there was so much personal stuff about it,

34:01

but it's happening a lot. People

34:03

need to hear it and need

34:05

to just need to raise the consciousness

34:08

and raise the awareness of it. I

34:10

worked around that song that was We

34:13

framed that one in how

34:15

do you mean you wooked around the song? I

34:17

put it in a place in the record for a couple

34:19

of different reasons. It was right after, you

34:22

know, a pretty raucous kind of

34:24

song, you know, before it the record

34:27

needed to come down to the needed to

34:29

make a dip. And also when

34:31

you're making vinyl records,

34:34

like we're talking about records now, vinyl

34:36

records, the closer you get to

34:38

the center of the album, the more distortion

34:41

you pick up, so you can't put a real

34:44

loud song in the middle because it's going to be distorted.

34:46

You're gonna hear so much cross talk.

34:48

Mean, the grooves get very

34:51

very small. You mean it like at the end

34:53

of side one when you're making a record and

34:55

decide one and decide two, you

34:57

always put a quieter song there,

35:00

you know, And I put a little space between it two.

35:02

So on a CD, so you

35:05

get you actually get a chance to think about

35:07

it before the next song hits. You

35:09

kind of built in a side one on the side

35:11

two on the CD.

35:13

I did? I did?

35:15

I put a little more good, more

35:17

space in there. Speaking of old technology,

35:20

are you still thinking about records? I'm still

35:22

thinking about records even if I'm making It

35:24

doesn't matter what we're making. I

35:26

think about pacing according

35:29

to the way we used to do. Vital

35:31

Well, you know, records now make more money

35:33

than CDs. How about that

35:36

they outsold CDs last year? Yeah?

35:38

Absolutely, are all the songs details

35:41

in the song like he wanted your brother wanted

35:43

to have a clothing, he did.

35:45

He wanted his own clothing, So my father put

35:47

him to work. He was a sole proprietor

35:50

sold kitchen equipment, and he was

35:52

a very clever guy. He had his own team

35:54

that would go he went to these home shows

35:57

and he would show women shopping

35:59

for new kitchens what

36:01

he could do, what magnificent

36:04

kitchen he could install for them. And in those days,

36:06

there was no digital support or anything. So he

36:08

had these little, tiny, you

36:11

know, miniatures of cabinets and he could

36:13

arrange him around on a

36:15

twenty four twenty four inch surface. He

36:17

was a good salesman. He was excellent,

36:20

and he was a great storyteller. So he

36:22

put my brother to work, and my brother

36:24

didn't want to sell kitchens. He

36:26

was the golden child as the states,

36:29

and my mother adored him. There was a lot

36:31

of weight. I know people who've lost kids,

36:34

and in retrospect they're often well,

36:36

you know that was the one, and you

36:38

know they don't want to say I loved him

36:40

or her the best. But at the time, were you conscious

36:43

that your brother was the golden child? As

36:45

you say, I'm just gonna let it all

36:47

hang out, Okay. I knew he was a golden child.

36:49

I worshiped him. He was

36:52

so cool with the skinny

36:54

ties and the skinny pants and he

36:57

was so hip that he put

37:00

on a dance and actually brought

37:02

Joey d and the Starlighters from

37:04

New York City, these kids. He got these

37:06

kids together nineteen and

37:09

rented this place and had Joey Diana Starlighter's

37:11

play, you know, Peppermint Twist for God's Sake

37:13

in Indianapolis, Indiana. But

37:16

he was also a predator,

37:18

a sexual predator, and he

37:20

raped me when I was very young, so he

37:22

was my hero. He

37:24

also had abused me, so

37:28

it was it was a it was a lot unopened

37:31

over the years, and it took me a lot of time. Yeah,

37:33

I'm not the only one, you know. I talk about

37:36

my abuse because I think it can

37:38

help other people as well. I know plenty

37:40

of guys that were abused when

37:42

they were little kids. Did

37:44

you have to forgive that part

37:47

of him in a sense before you could write the song? I

37:49

guess the song was probably

37:52

the final bit of

37:54

forgiveness. I mean, I've I

37:56

forgave him a long time ago. I know. I

37:59

mean I know that it wasn't who

38:02

he you know, wanted to be,

38:05

and that he was driven. You know, this

38:07

stuff comes, this stuff. It's like some

38:10

of these genes they come out of the womb attached

38:13

to you from generations past,

38:15

you know, so there's no telling what

38:17

propelled him to, you

38:20

know, have a life that was so

38:22

so heartbreaking. Yeah,

38:24

I mean you said it. There are some things you can't get back

38:27

from. There's some things you won't go through. Yeah,

38:29

I guess so. But you know

38:31

it's a god. I mean you to

38:33

turn to your left or turn to your right, and you can talk

38:36

to a person who's had a hell

38:38

of a harder ride than you have. You know, that's

38:40

my that's my experience. Anyway. I just want

38:42

to ask about two more songs, which is Changes

38:44

in my Mind and Sweet Dreams, which sort of feel

38:47

like two sides of the same coin to me,

38:49

a little bit one a little downbeat, one

38:51

more upbeat. Changes in my Mind's

38:53

got It's got a very complex line,

38:56

which is you find changes in your mind in somebody

38:58

else's heart. Can you tell me a bit about

39:00

that? Yeah? I just think

39:02

of my own marriage of thirty

39:04

five years, and my mind has

39:06

been changed by the love

39:08

of my wife continually. That's what

39:10

happens to me. Maybe I do that as

39:13

well with her and with my kids. I don't know, you

39:15

know, there's something about music.

39:17

When you're performing music or they're

39:19

playing music, you can have the worst

39:22

argument of your whole life. You

39:24

get in the studio or wherever you are playing

39:26

the music. As soon as you start to play

39:28

the music, it goes away all

39:31

that stuff that's talking about the heart

39:33

of music. Which that's what

39:36

we do. Yeah, I mean, because we're all

39:38

tortured. But when we get

39:40

strap on these guitars and go

39:42

out there and not even perform for people,

39:45

but just perform, just play,

39:47

it saves anything

39:50

that's going on inside

39:53

you that you don't know what to do with. It

39:55

actually is more than a band

39:57

aid. It gives you a time, time to think

40:00

about it. It's healing. All right.

40:02

Well, I'm going to leave it to you guys to figure out. How

40:04

do you think we should round this out? What

40:06

do you want to play? Just play sweet dreams okay

40:09

aims like that eating

40:19

honey from the casket, And

40:23

I thought about you. I

40:28

haven't been in that neck of the wood.

40:33

I guess I'm long over you. It's

40:38

getting hard to leave this hollow.

40:43

My family has been two hundred years

40:48

over letting me go a little

40:50

while to

40:53

this sweet dream disappeared. I

40:58

was U bone back mountain,

41:03

hitch higging in the dark, not

41:08

a light for our route. Things

41:13

were looking pretty star Now

41:18

I think about that star and

41:20

night all

41:23

my eyes well up with tea,

41:28

letting me cry a little while

41:33

until this sweet dream disappeared.

41:38

Step one time in New Jersey,

41:43

by the side of the route, and

41:48

I thought about your warm hall

41:53

as I shivered in the cold.

41:58

Now I've stayed in fancy hotel

42:03

with Crystal Shandely. Let

42:08

me stay here for a little

42:11

while until

42:13

this sweet team disappears.

42:58

Got a ride from a shoe sus

43:02

He said, I'll never come this

43:05

way ever,

43:09

and say built the new rule. I

43:13

don't know why I did today.

43:18

That's getting harder to travel.

43:23

It gets harder every year over

43:29

Letting me go a little while until

43:33

this sweet dream disappeared. Eating

43:39

honey from the catskin, and

43:44

I thought about, you haven't

43:49

been in that neck of the wood. I

43:53

guess I'm a long overdue.

43:58

We were a long time together,

44:03

and I've kept your memory. Let

44:09

mis stay here for a little while

44:13

until this sweet dream disappeared.

44:19

Let me stay here for a little

44:21

while, until

44:24

this sweet dream disappeared.

44:33

That was just beautiful. I think I spoke too soon

44:35

though about Jerry, because you started

44:37

to tear it up there a little bit. I

44:40

think maybe when you tour, you should be the first

44:42

guy ever to smash a doughbro on stage.

44:45

When you're done, it's

44:47

a perfectly good dough bro. Yeah, just

44:50

at the end, just one night at the end, just get

44:52

a fake one and just smash it with the

44:54

one that I want to do that too, but I just can't.

44:56

Just bring it out. Just bring it

44:58

out now. It's the time you helped me breaks

45:01

the time that was wonderful. This was such

45:03

a thrill and the album is so beautiful. Everybody

45:05

should listen. Thank you, It was a real

45:07

pleasure talking with you. Thanks

45:12

to John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas for singing and

45:14

chatting so candidly with Bruce. You

45:16

can check out all of our favorite John Hyatt and Jerry

45:19

Douglas songs at Broken Record podcast

45:21

door. Be sure to subscribe

45:23

to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot

45:25

com slash Broken Record Podcast,

45:27

where you can find all of our new episodes.

45:30

You can follow us on Twitter at broken

45:32

Record. Broken Record is produced with helpful

45:34

Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin

45:37

Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and

45:39

Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering

45:41

help from Nick Chafee. Our executive producer

45:44

is Mio Lobell. Broken Record is

45:46

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46:10

Candy Beats, I'm Justin and Mitchell