0:15

Pushkin, Naz

0:23

dropped one of the most universally loved rap

0:25

albums of all time with Illmatic.

0:29

Since releasing that homage to the gritty streets

0:31

of his childhood home, Queensbridge, Naz

0:34

has remained one of the greatest mcs

0:36

of all time. I made the

0:38

fade, famous to change, Famous, Jubio

0:40

man, chess mast, stainless, amazing,

0:42

grace, imbraceably aged. With a few

0:45

legends in hip hop have been able to maintain the relevance

0:47

over several decades based on their skill

0:49

alone, Naz has never chased

0:51

headlines or crossover success. He's

0:54

always seemed focused on elevating his craft

0:56

in the culture, and that dedications

0:58

paid off King's Disease as Naza's

1:01

twelfth album and earned him his fourteenth

1:03

Grammy nomination. It's up for Best

1:05

Rap Album at this year's awards. Rick

1:08

Rubin connected with NOAs over Zoom recently to

1:10

talk about his earliest experiences with rapping

1:13

queens how recording his last

1:15

album with Kanye West and Wayoming almost

1:17

took him out of his own and how early beef

1:19

of jay Z made them both stronger

1:22

rappers. This

1:26

is broken record liner notes for the digital

1:28

age I'm justin Richmond. Here's

1:35

Rick Rubin with Nasty Nos. What's

1:39

going on? Legend? Everything's

1:41

well? How are you, sir? Yo? This

1:43

is It's an honor to talk to you. Man the

1:46

same. It's my pleasure always

1:48

anytime I get to see you, it's a good day. Love

1:51

man. Tell me about the music

1:53

in your house when you were growing up. Huh,

1:56

My mom was playing What's

1:59

you Gonna Do with My Loving that? Stephanie

2:01

Mills, Patty,

2:04

you know all the records that was

2:06

out, Like I remember the early eighties records,

2:09

and then my pops was playing a

2:13

wide range of

2:15

of things. He had everything from the

2:17

radio station with Wolfman Jack. He had

2:20

fail and things like that, you know,

2:23

Jazz whatever,

2:27

Lionel, Richie whatever, all

2:29

those early eighties records, early

2:31

seventy nine. I

2:35

grew up at right around that time when like the

2:38

these are the breaks and rappers delight.

2:40

I was young, but I was absorbing that stuff.

2:43

Would you say that the music

2:46

in that your

2:48

parents played was reflective of the other music

2:50

that the kids in the neighborhood would be hearing. Are not necessarily

2:54

not necessarily you

2:56

think because of your dad's jazz background,

2:59

Because the kids a

3:02

lot of the kids parents, I think were younger

3:04

than my parents. A lot

3:06

of my friends parents most of them were

3:10

younger than my parents, and they were playing

3:12

the music of their

3:15

time. I think my pops, my

3:17

pops, he's

3:19

from Mississippi,

3:22

you know, and he get he got everything

3:24

that was going on out there and what

3:26

they were playing with the other

3:28

people parents that uh and the

3:30

radios was playing. But we

3:33

didn't play that in the house all the time. Now,

3:36

It wasn't like I didn't own all of those records.

3:38

When I started buying records, it

3:40

was it was like I was the record buying the

3:42

house. He had jazz records, but in

3:44

African records and stuff, but

3:47

it wasn't a lot of music like you would

3:49

think. Do you think that um,

3:52

having those influences

3:55

affected your both appreciation

3:57

of music and the way that you wrote going forward.

4:00

Yeah, because the sounds was

4:02

like disco and R

4:04

and B was

4:07

was a thing. And the

4:10

songs to me, they were like, um,

4:12

they were rap songs before they were rap songs

4:15

like over like a fat rat and

4:17

um, you know Evelyn

4:20

Champagne king. To me,

4:22

they you know, we would move our head

4:24

to it, like you know, that's the jam and that.

4:27

So when I wanted to you

4:29

know, when Sugarhill Gang had the

4:32

the Good Times record and they flipped it, it

4:34

was just rapping. I

4:36

tried to rap like them. I tried to I

4:39

tried to rap like Um Um

4:42

Curtis Blow. So

4:45

that's that's when I first

4:47

started to feel rapped like Curtis

4:50

and Um and those

4:52

guys. Tela rocking them, your

4:55

guys, was

4:57

your first experience of hip hop music

4:59

from those records? Or was it in the park first?

5:03

It was a combination of both. It

5:05

was a combination because when I was a

5:07

kid, I would hear all the guys

5:10

talking about, you know, who was at the center last

5:12

night, and the community

5:14

Center at night turned into

5:17

I guess like a club or sometimes

5:19

you know, and in the park a lot of guys

5:22

would come out there. I would hear all of these rapped

5:24

legends were in the park and

5:28

and hear all these stories. So

5:31

yeah, it was definitely in the park, but

5:34

it was a combination as a park. And then

5:36

somebody's radio describe

5:38

more about like the the what

5:41

was going on in the park and what was going on in

5:43

the community center. Paint the

5:45

picture and I just love to

5:47

imagine what you saw,

5:50

all right. So with the community center parties,

5:54

I was definitely too young for that. I

5:57

would see all the people going

6:00

dressed up. If it was winter,

6:02

they had the sheepskin coats on. They would excite

6:05

it like I thought

6:07

they were going to some big play.

6:09

I don't know where. I didn't realize they

6:11

were going right to the community center, right

6:13

in the neighborhood, because you're talking,

6:15

I'm talking eighty three eighty five, you

6:18

know. And in the park they

6:20

had, you know, people would

6:23

come there and they have like set

6:25

up a stage like I don't know,

6:27

the city would have people come out there, set

6:30

up a stage and do shows

6:32

Like I'm looking at people in costumes

6:34

and stuff like that. Just wild

6:36

stuff I would see in the parks. And then the jams

6:38

will happen. When when I got when they got

6:40

to the park jams, you know, my

6:42

moms didn't want me to go over there. So we

6:44

could hear it from across the street. We

6:46

could watch them, even help them carry

6:48

records. You know, you know you're gonna

6:51

throw a part, You're gonna throw a jam. We see them coming

6:53

through the block with the equipment. Get out

6:55

the way, look, get out the way kids and we want

6:57

to We were excited seeing this happen. They

6:59

were homemade speakers, all

7:01

this um um the wires where

7:03

they would uh take electricity

7:06

from the street lamp and

7:08

and and plug it up to the equipment

7:10

outside and watch

7:12

the cops ride around to make sure

7:14

everything was okay, tell them

7:17

to turn it down, and then they

7:19

leave, and then they turn it back up, and the cops

7:21

just got tired of messing with them. They just let it, let

7:23

it play so um.

7:25

And then I got a little older. I think it was like the end

7:28

of the community center. I remember, Um,

7:31

they're being MC battles in there is

7:34

mcs from my block. Um,

7:37

the illmatic mcs. They were from

7:39

my block, you know, Sudan and

7:41

these guys who I looked up to, who

7:44

who were really good at what they did. I

7:46

would I would listen to them wrapped here and there.

7:49

But um, how much older were they

7:51

than you? I want to say maybe

7:54

five years maybe with five

7:57

five note because then I was like maybe

8:00

about six seven years. Some of

8:02

them are little older. But Jeff

8:04

Rod from my building was

8:06

known for doing needle lifting. You know, he didn't

8:09

even have to he just knew where to lift the

8:11

needle. It wouldn't. I don't even think he had

8:13

headphones on. He just knew and

8:16

he was legendary for that. The Old Brothers

8:18

were in my building. They made speakers that

8:20

was so big they just would rattle

8:22

the building, and they won the first floor

8:24

and I was on the fifth floor, but we enjoyed

8:27

it. It It would rattle the building. But because

8:29

the speakers were so big, they couldn't

8:31

even get him through the apartment door to take

8:33

outside. But the sound

8:35

on it was incredible. It's

8:38

amazing the home

8:41

grown aspects of the hip hop culture

8:44

that most people don't know about. You

8:46

know, most people experience if

8:48

they come from somewhere else, if they weren't from New

8:51

York at that period of time, they

8:53

experienced it as you know songs that came

8:55

on the radio. But there was a whole culture

8:59

and life around hip hop music

9:01

where it's the music was just part of it. There

9:03

was so much to it right right,

9:06

definitely, there was so much to it.

9:09

And you know, the style of clothes

9:11

everyone was wearing because at the time, you

9:14

know, pumas and

9:16

all these different sneakers was

9:19

getting taken off your feet like if

9:21

you had if you had a fresh prayer of sneakers

9:23

on and you come to that park, jam,

9:25

I'd see somebody running. I see people

9:28

want your sneakers, like just to you

9:30

know, that's so funny. I was talking

9:32

to somebody the other day, how everybody's

9:35

iced out now. It's so much better now. You

9:37

couldn't even wear a gold name plate back

9:39

in those days, just a regular goal thin nameplate

9:42

like Rais or blade thin on your on your net. You couldn't

9:45

even wear you We'd have to watch where you go some places

9:47

with that. So all of that added

9:50

to it. It put it was in

9:52

the energy of the music. I think when

9:55

did you first start writing? I

9:57

think um, early

10:00

eighties. It was rest in peace to my

10:02

man Andre Herrell. I would

10:04

tell him this all the time, him

10:06

and his guy in the group, doctor jackoman

10:09

Us to hide. They they had

10:11

a story mister shark in the

10:13

ocean, can you find my

10:15

magic potion? And I was like, wait,

10:18

how did the story start here? And then

10:23

help me that well,

10:28

I don't know, but you

10:30

know Slick Rick with Lottie Dotty,

10:33

So those those those

10:35

people made me like, you know, even uh

10:38

my man Mellie mel and Raheemu

10:40

Raheem's verse on Um the

10:43

Message and Mellie mel the way closes

10:45

it out. Um those

10:47

though, they would like put pictures in my mind, and

10:50

I was like, all right, I can write from that perspective.

10:52

You know, all these guys, did

10:55

you did you know that it was something that you wanted

10:58

to do, like that you were going

11:00

to dedicate your life to it. You know,

11:03

I didn't know it was really possible

11:06

to really get into the rap

11:08

game. I know I wanted

11:10

to. I know I could picture myself

11:12

in it since I

11:16

mean since I first started hearing rap. You

11:19

know, I know I could picture

11:21

myself in it. I would hear like tapes

11:25

by the Cold Crush Brothers, but not

11:27

really paying attention because even

11:29

though it was the most popping tape

11:31

out to me, I can hear the

11:34

time in their voice. I can hear the time

11:37

and the beat, the sound. I knew

11:39

that it wasn't for me at that time.

11:41

I said, end time will

11:44

be my time. But I didn't

11:46

pay too much attention to those tastes because I

11:48

felt like it's like trying to play a kid.

11:50

Frank Sinatra, who I love now, but

11:52

it's like I don't get it, but you get older,

11:55

you get what they meant at the time. But

11:58

those were the times I would hear a little bit of bits

12:00

and pieces and still, you know,

12:02

try to emulate that. What was the first

12:05

the first record that you heard where

12:07

it's like, oh, this is this

12:09

is not the older kids music anymore, this is

12:11

my music. I mean I knew it when

12:13

I heard the breaks. Cut your hands,

12:16

everybody, if you got what it

12:18

takes by Curtis Blow, Curtis Blow, and

12:20

I want you to know that there

12:24

it was grown folks music. It had a disco

12:26

sound, but the way he

12:28

commanded your attention on the

12:30

song, I

12:33

knew and like he didn't have to be a singer to

12:36

demand that type of respect that a

12:38

singer would demand on a record.

12:40

The way he spoke, his pronunciation,

12:43

in what he would do with his

12:45

voice, and the breakdowns of the

12:47

song would make me go, Okay,

12:49

this is this could this is a big record.

12:52

It's not an underground record, it's not a mixtape,

12:55

it's a it's a record record on a

12:57

label that's known. What was

12:59

the record label, um

13:02

Mercury, I think Mercury exactly.

13:04

That was a known label. So that's what I

13:07

knew, Like Okay, this thing is a real

13:09

record. How did your parents react

13:11

to hip hop? My pops

13:14

was was cool with it. My mom was cool

13:16

with it too, but I

13:18

guess she didn't want me and my brother

13:20

to grow up to be like,

13:22

like, you know, too hard whatever

13:25

or two hoodlums or

13:28

you know whatever they called it back then, and

13:31

show I would repeat. You

13:33

know, a son said, Daddy, I don't want to

13:35

go to school because my teacher's a jerk. She might

13:37

think I'm a fool, and all the kids smoke griefa.

13:39

I think it'd be cheaper if, you know. She's

13:41

like, what you know what I'm saying, and she's

13:44

like, Nah, that ain't that ain't for you. But

13:46

I'm like laughing. I'm like, it is because

13:48

we're all we're all little kids, not supposed

13:51

to be singing these songs, but they're so

13:53

dope around each other. We say

13:55

we're singing, we're singing the message. You

13:58

asked your dad to play on your first record. He played

14:00

trumpet on your first records? That correct, right?

14:03

How did that come together? Like the idea

14:05

of you'd never hear

14:07

a solo on a hip hop record, How

14:10

did you know to do it well?

14:13

Because it's pops, you

14:16

know, mister Olu Dara. He

14:20

is before

14:24

my time musically, of course, but

14:27

now here it is. I am with a record deal

14:29

with Columbia Records. I'm like, yo,

14:33

yo, this is so cool. Your son's on Columbia

14:35

Records, rough House, Columbia,

14:39

I have an album.

14:41

This is a dream that we could

14:43

do something together. So I called

14:46

him, you know, and I told

14:48

him when he got to the studio, I said, play what reminds

14:51

you of me and my brother and our

14:53

family when we were

14:55

kids. Just play whatever

14:57

that feels like to you. Beautiful and

15:10

uh, he played that beautiful.

15:27

We'll be right back with more from Rick Rubin and Nas

15:30

after the break, We're

15:37

back with more of Rick Rubin's conversation with

15:40

Nas. Tell me about getting

15:42

signed. Tell me about the feeling of what

15:44

was going on, what you had done at that point,

15:47

and then the excitement of that

15:49

moment. Man, it

15:52

was. It was a moment that I

15:55

felt like it was coming. I felt like it

15:57

was it was possible, um

15:59

and when it came, I

16:02

felt of course, of

16:05

course, I'm like, I'm happy, you know, beyond

16:08

happy, because I'm

16:11

I'm with Columbia Records. Now,

16:13

I mean shout out to Chris Schwartz and Roughhouse,

16:16

shout out to Faith Newman who

16:18

signed me. Shout out to MC search

16:22

who helped put that deal together. And

16:26

I was happy to be involved with so many

16:28

creative people like those people I named, people

16:31

who are to me vets in

16:33

the music business. So I felt like I was gonna

16:36

be kind of protected with you

16:38

know, just with the tutelage and from

16:40

these guys. I felt like I was in a

16:42

safe situation. So it

16:45

was it was like a super

16:47

dream come true. It was it

16:49

was like, this is what we all

16:53

looking for right here, and it's happening great.

16:56

And tell me about the making of the first album, the

16:58

process of it. The making

17:01

of the first album was like now

17:05

things are real. Now the studios are real. Now

17:09

Out had worked in power Play studios

17:11

with Lars Professor years ago before,

17:15

well like two years before I actually got

17:17

a deal. I've been in power playing. That's a serious

17:19

place. But now it's here,

17:22

my budget, my album for

17:24

me, not just hanging out

17:27

with Lars Professor. So now

17:29

I'm here in the house of Metal chun King.

17:31

Now I'm I'm looking at these

17:34

plaques on the wall and all

17:36

these great artists and the

17:38

studio is real. The engineer,

17:41

I never met him before, but he's about to be

17:43

in my life now and I'm learning

17:45

from him and he's learning about me at

17:47

the same time. So I

17:49

kind of like a fish to water because

17:52

of the previous experience

17:55

with Las Professor, and he's telling me not to

17:58

pop your ps so loud in the microphone.

18:00

He's telling me how to even stand

18:03

at the microphone. So I had some experience,

18:05

and then I was working with him also, so it

18:07

was like we were both happy

18:10

because he was a wild pitch cool

18:12

label, but now here I am on

18:15

this major label. So we would kind

18:17

of smiling, laughing, like Okay,

18:20

this is the way it's supposed to be. So we went

18:22

to it like like we was

18:24

waiting from two years ago to

18:26

now I'm eighteen. I got this deal,

18:29

It's go time. It was like we just went

18:32

and the were the songs written

18:34

before you went into the studio. Tell me about the

18:37

process of getting the material together. Yeah,

18:40

half of the half of the material was already

18:43

done. And when I got

18:45

to the studio, when I when we started to

18:47

record, I came up with

18:49

a lot of things right there on the spot as well,

18:51

but I would say about fifty percent was wrote.

18:55

And might you write without hearing

18:57

a beat? Or we're do you

18:59

always write based on a beat? Back?

19:02

Then I wrote to different beats, Like whatever

19:04

I thought was a dope record out,

19:07

I would get the instrumental and just sloop

19:09

that and right to that, like whoever's

19:12

record that I thought was hot. And then when

19:14

I went to the studio, I would find the timing

19:17

of the rhyme to that beat,

19:19

to the new beat, my actual beat.

19:21

I would find which rap had the timing

19:23

that would blend in that beat, right

19:26

understood. So you typically

19:28

write to a beat that would be not the beat that we hear

19:30

on the record, But then you would find a beat

19:32

that would work, a new beat that would work

19:35

for something you already wrote something else exactly

19:38

cool, And some of it I did get the

19:40

tracks and write to it, Like um when

19:42

Q Tip produced One Love, I

19:44

did get that on cassette tape and took

19:46

it home to write to it. I

19:49

did get some of the tracks and right there

19:51

in the studio, like with Premiere, I wrote

19:54

some of it right there in the studio. Yeah,

19:58

with lis my Man. Dj elis from

20:00

my neighborhood. Who produced the song

20:02

that my Pops is on Life's a Bitch. I

20:04

wrote that right there on the spot. So

20:07

some of it was just spontaneous.

20:10

Others was like pieces of papers

20:12

that I had just had a beginning, like maybe

20:14

like six bars, and

20:16

I like this six bars, and I match it up with

20:19

another song. Another rhyme I

20:21

had was probably had like twelve bars, and

20:24

and then and then I would write the last

20:26

you know, four or five bars or

20:28

whatever. Would you always

20:30

be writing? Would you always be taking notes

20:32

in general? Yeah?

20:34

Years ago when I was coming

20:37

out of a teenager into like my

20:40

early twenties. Yeah,

20:43

then I then just everything just

20:45

roller coast. So

20:48

tell me about the

20:52

experience of going from

20:55

really starting from

20:57

essentially nothing. Not really

21:00

you came from the very beginning,

21:02

and you built yourself up to be the

21:04

number one MC in New York No, like

21:07

without question, and in

21:10

your fantasy of what it was going to

21:13

be like what your life would be like

21:15

in success?

21:17

How different is the reality of success

21:20

versus the fantasy of success.

21:23

It's strange. Um, you

21:26

know, everyone has their own

21:29

journey. Um.

21:33

At times it was better than I imagine.

21:37

At other times it was like what's

21:40

going on? Like you know. Um,

21:45

so it would it would change, it

21:47

would change. Sometimes it would

21:49

really feel like this must

21:51

be like what you know.

21:54

Stevie Wonder was feeling like, this must

21:57

be like what what what? Michael was

21:59

feeling like. You had those moments, whether it

22:01

was like, uh, first time at

22:03

an award show or meeting

22:05

somebody you never thought you'd meet and they

22:08

like you, those are those are really

22:10

good moments there. So it

22:12

changed. And then give me an example

22:15

of something that you thought was going to be really good

22:17

that turned out not to live up to them.

22:21

I don't know, man, it was, Um, I

22:25

don't know. It's certain. There's certain aspects

22:28

of of certain

22:32

people I thought would be different,

22:34

and um, they were

22:37

not the nicest people. But

22:39

I appreciate the experience.

22:41

Even though I looked at these people like I

22:44

had to realize their human beings like everyone

22:47

else. They have their bad days and their good days.

22:50

Um, you know, realizing

22:53

people are not superheroes really all

22:55

the time. You know these people that you look up

22:57

to people. Um,

22:59

certain places I went to a smaller

23:02

than I thought, like TV sets, TV

23:04

stages, sound stages, or certain

23:06

television shows or you know,

23:08

things like that. Have you ever

23:10

eaten four gro in real life, I

23:13

have I have Okay,

23:16

I'm just asking because it's it's a funny.

23:18

It's like we think about rap

23:21

brags and that might

23:23

not live up to their actual I'm

23:25

not a fan of foire gross I

23:30

had. I tried it before. I

23:32

tried it before, but I'm not a fan.

23:35

It just sounds good. Yeah,

23:37

it also does sound good in a rhyme like

23:39

just the nature the words sounds

23:41

good. Yes, it sounds good. Tell

23:44

me about spirituality. Have you

23:47

do you have a spiritual practice or have you ever

23:49

in your life? Um, there's

23:51

no real practice. Um,

23:55

I'm just aware, you know, you're just aware that

23:58

where where we're having

24:00

a spiritual beings having a

24:03

human experience and

24:05

we're just there has

24:07

to be more than here, you

24:09

know. Um, And that

24:12

energy is real and you

24:15

just want to keep the energy around

24:17

you. Um.

24:20

Good and and and you want

24:22

to keep because energy lives forever.

24:25

In my mind, you know, I feel like

24:27

we go on to see

24:29

the big Man upstairs from here. So

24:32

do what you do here matters. On

24:35

the other side, also, how you

24:38

how how do you handle your business? You

24:40

know, if you have to do something that's not so great

24:43

to get somewhere great. You

24:45

know, you just

24:47

hope that most high forgives you because

24:50

we're all just on our own journey. So

24:53

you have to realize that there's a there's

24:56

karma and everything you do,

24:58

so you try to keep that when nobody's perfect.

25:01

You know, I'm not perfect. I'm not going to be you

25:03

know, on point all the time. But you just hope

25:06

that I try to stay in the right the

25:08

right calma, the right energy. Has

25:11

having kids changed your life big

25:14

time? Big time? Yeah? I

25:16

think my daughter saved my life. She

25:18

she she I was really young when I had

25:20

I was twenty years old, so I

25:23

was I was a kid. So

25:25

um, I think she she made me

25:28

pay attention and say, you gotta be here.

25:31

You can't just throw it all in a wind. You

25:33

have to, you know, be cautious. You

25:36

gotta be here. My

25:38

son too, my son as well. Do you get to spend

25:40

a lot of time with them now, Yeah,

25:43

especially my daughter. You know,

25:45

that's that's like my bestie. That's

25:47

great, That's that's my homie right

25:49

there. She's very she's

25:51

busy in her life, but you

25:54

know she's she's

25:56

into a lot of things, cosmetics being

25:58

one of those she has a company called lip Matic,

26:01

and she's into the

26:03

arts. You know, she's into all kinds

26:06

of things. So she's busy. But we

26:08

do get together. My son not

26:10

so much. He doesn't live as close to me

26:12

as her, But there's always a

26:14

great time either way, you know, Beautiful.

26:17

Tell me about you got to work with with so

26:20

many of the great hip hop producers over

26:22

the years. Just tell me about the differences

26:25

between working with different people. Oh

26:28

man, Um, when

26:31

I work with say Doctor

26:33

Dre, I hear he's he's

26:36

recovering right now. Um.

26:39

Prayers going out to him and his family. Working

26:41

with Doctor Dre is someone who's

26:45

right there, can create there on the spot,

26:48

um, and there's no

26:50

telling how far can go. He

26:53

You you start with just one

26:55

sound, and his

26:59

his his ear is he's

27:02

like he's like he's putting the sounds

27:04

in a movie. It's that's that's

27:06

the way I see him doing hip hop. And he just loves

27:09

the most hardest shit you know, and he

27:12

wants to make it happen as

27:14

big as possible, make it sound as big

27:16

as possible, as right as possible. Working

27:19

with somebody like Havoc from Mob Deep,

27:22

not only did I know him since we were little kids,

27:26

you know, and we come from the same neighborhood,

27:28

we're around the same age, and

27:30

we grew up on the same sounds in the

27:32

same city. So work

27:35

with him is this really grimy stuff,

27:39

hard stuff. And it's

27:42

like his beats are talking to me and

27:44

I can hear I could hear

27:46

having spirit in the beat, and

27:49

it's like it makes you really

27:51

want to get down on the

27:53

beat. Working

27:56

with somebody like um Kanye,

28:00

it's like, you know, this

28:02

guy who can take

28:06

he could do, he could

28:08

do electronic, he could do so, he

28:10

could do, he could do rock,

28:12

he could do and his all,

28:15

his all with his spirit on it. And

28:19

you know, there's no there's

28:21

no levels to how big it can

28:23

go. It could just could go anywhere. Um.

28:27

So everyone has a different approach

28:29

to it because we all love this

28:31

culture, we all love this this this art

28:33

form, and we're all trying

28:36

to make the stuff

28:38

that blew our minds when we

28:40

were kids. I guess do you remember

28:42

the first time you heard an MC where you're like, whoa,

28:45

this is something new and this is great and you were like excited

28:47

about like someone taking it to

28:50

a new place that you hadn't heard before. Um,

28:53

there was a couple of times, but the one that comes

28:55

to mind right now is Um

28:58

the Educated Rapper from Utfo on

29:01

the song Rock Sand Rock Sand And

29:04

I liked that he was called the educated rapper.

29:07

It was like he had this sona he

29:09

had. He was a character almost, But with

29:13

rap music, you're using words, So to

29:15

be educated means he's got a

29:18

plethora of words. So when he was

29:20

just like, you know the

29:22

way his flow was, and I said, wow,

29:24

you know you can you could. There's many styles to

29:27

this, but even the Fat Boys, even even

29:29

cool Rock Ski and and and and um

29:32

and my Man's you know what I'm saying. Um,

29:35

they was like they had

29:37

me trying to rap like them. So it

29:40

was everybody everybody at that time,

29:42

you know. But Shan also

29:45

from our neighborhood, who could

29:47

tell a story and take

29:50

you right in, you know, songs like Jane

29:52

Stopped this Crazy Thing, Um

29:56

the Bridge that was our anthem,

29:58

our neighborhood. UM.

30:01

So so many different artists would

30:03

bring you something that was different.

30:05

You know. We'll be back with Nahs

30:07

after the break. We're

30:13

back with Rick, Rubin and Nas talking

30:15

about why rap battles changed over the years

30:17

and about the once famous beef between him and jay

30:19

Z that led to some of the best disc records

30:21

of all time. Was

30:24

the Bridge the first battle record you heard? I

30:27

think so, I think so.

30:29

But there were there were a couple of disc songs

30:32

out at the time. I think there

30:34

was a Salt and Pepper disc too.

30:37

Don't get me wrong. I'm

30:39

my bad if I'm saying

30:41

this wrong. It was all in fun back then.

30:43

But it was like a like Salton Pepper

30:46

I think had something against Dougie Fresh and

30:48

to get Fresh Crew and so I had

30:50

heard, but nothing with the

30:52

magnitude of

30:54

the Bridge South Bronx, the Bridges over kill

30:56

at noise, nothing like that ever. And

30:59

would you say that that was like two

31:01

teams, like rival teams sports

31:03

teams. Definitely, definitely.

31:06

I mean it started with Rock San Chantay,

31:08

you know, take my hat off to the Queen. Then

31:11

she went after Utfo and

31:13

you know it was it was on. But

31:16

yeah, there was my hood and

31:19

it was the South Bronx. It was Queen's

31:22

Bread South Bronx, Queen's Bronx.

31:24

But the Boroughs were all they

31:26

was all gunning for the

31:29

top spot in New York. So you had

31:31

the Brooklyns in the House record. Um,

31:34

you know you had your you had your everybody

31:36

Komode and Harlem. Um,

31:39

you had the Bronx, you had you know, so everybody

31:41

was just trying to be that number one, that

31:44

number one place. But it

31:46

was always from a point of view of like out

31:49

wrapping the other. In the early

31:51

days, it never felt like there was any real beef.

31:53

It was more like performance.

31:56

It wasn't actually a fight. A fight

31:58

would back then with me and you was the sole loser.

32:01

You know, like back then it

32:03

was like who's really the best

32:06

at this? A fight

32:08

would just make mess the whole

32:10

thing. You weren't the best at this if you had to fight,

32:13

right, if you was that mad about it to fight,

32:16

you lost. So you would have to show

32:18

improve with your with your talent back

32:20

then, and that's that's what built

32:22

That's what the legs of this

32:25

thing is. Those guys who

32:27

would competing with

32:29

each other. Um.

32:31

One of the most famous uh

32:34

hip hop rivalries was between you

32:36

and Jay back in the day. And

32:42

what did it feel like, uh,

32:45

you know, being the subject when you were the subject

32:47

of a of a disrecord or

32:50

a challenge. Was that justum

32:54

proof that you were the top guy was

32:56

at the What was the feeling of that? Yeah,

32:59

it was all of that, and it was like the

33:03

you know it just the auto M seeing was

33:06

right there on full display. It

33:08

was like, if you're in the

33:10

rap game, this can

33:12

happen a battle and

33:15

it was like, that's this rap thing

33:17

is real, Like a battle can really

33:19

happen, you know. So

33:22

I was honored to

33:24

to have that part of my life happened

33:27

because that's what that's

33:29

how I saw the Great Stewart coming up. I saw

33:31

some of the Great Stewart. It actually

33:33

shed light on both

33:35

of you. Like at the time, it felt like in

33:39

the back and forth, it elevated everybody.

33:43

Yeah, yeah, because it's again

33:45

it's about the art of MCing and

33:47

when you're when you're trying

33:50

to UM

33:53

make the best stuff you can make, and

33:56

do you bump heads with another MC and

33:59

then you guys have a war

34:02

whatever. That's that's

34:06

that's what this art form was

34:08

was since the beginn just

34:10

double trouble and and busy

34:13

being cool. You know. But that's

34:15

what I like about hip

34:18

hop compared to other genres is that they

34:21

go at it in hip hop, you know, like really

34:24

at it, not to say that other rockers didn't

34:26

go at it, Other reggae artists didn't go at other

34:28

schrooners didn't go at it. But the hip

34:31

hop will always be around, I think because

34:33

of how competitive it is. Well,

34:37

it's the last time you were in Queen's

34:39

Bridge. Um, I

34:44

did my last I did to not see

34:46

a album with Kanye.

34:49

I did the party there and then

34:51

did the after party and the actual projects

34:53

because we were under the bridge for the album released

34:55

party and then went inside

34:57

the projects where I went inside the projects

35:00

and party hung out all

35:02

night. How did it feel?

35:05

What were the memories that came up when you were there?

35:07

I mean, I do it. I do it from time to time.

35:09

So usually I go there, kids

35:12

are not up. I go at night

35:14

and I hang with the fellas. We don't put it on

35:17

camera, we don't tape it, but

35:19

countless nights I've been there. So

35:21

it was just another night. But this night was great

35:23

because underneath the bridge

35:26

there's where those legendary artists

35:28

you would come to when I was a kid, and

35:31

we kind of had it in the same area. So

35:34

it was I was like

35:36

lifted up to another consciousness

35:40

and everything a spiritual feeling.

35:42

Happened. I felt like I

35:44

was doing what was right in

35:47

the community for the

35:49

art of it. And you

35:53

know, it's years later. I've had parties

35:55

everywhere for our release parties, but to

35:57

have one in my neighborhood, you

35:59

know, for the not said album was great and

36:02

to go hang out afterwards.

36:04

I'm seeing people they

36:06

got new names. I still call them their

36:08

old name, and they got they

36:10

got new names and stuff. You

36:13

know, I remember when they were kids, but their name

36:15

now is knockout, you know what I'm saying,

36:17

or something like that. Um.

36:20

But you know, most of the guys, I know their moms,

36:22

I know their dads me and they their

36:24

parents are still cool. Y'all can

36:26

smoke a blunt with their kid who's now grown up

36:29

and and and then to go have a drink with their dad,

36:32

you know, two steps away in the whole same

36:34

neighborhood. So and everybody's

36:36

you know, I'm seeing people that are doing well for themselves,

36:39

man. And that's the best, you know, because I

36:41

mean people look at me like, um,

36:44

probably like yo, he got out of here, but

36:47

still comes back. You know. I

36:49

have I have different things we do there. Summer

36:52

camp. I do out there and take

36:54

the kids out and other things cool.

36:58

In the early days, lyrically,

37:00

you talked a lot about what was going

37:02

on around you in the hood and

37:06

how as your life has developed

37:08

and as you've changed

37:11

your living conditions, how

37:13

do you find what to write about? Like where

37:16

does the content come from of what you

37:18

talk about? I knew

37:21

years ago that you know, moving

37:23

away or wherever I was at, I had

37:25

enough to write books. I had enough to

37:28

write. I

37:31

could have left the neighborhood fourteen and

37:34

still had enough stuff because I

37:36

had already been fed through

37:39

what I saw at fourteen

37:42

and what I learned in school, and what

37:45

I read at home, and what I

37:47

would love to watch on television, all of these

37:49

things I'm watching growing up in New

37:51

York. It gave me a piece of everything.

37:54

So I wanted to write screenplays

37:57

when I was young, So

37:59

I was I was writing screenplays or

38:02

trying to preteen

38:06

just about you know. So I was

38:09

already kind of like a writer. That was my little

38:11

hobby that nobody knew about. So

38:14

I knew that I'd be able to do it. So it

38:16

doesn't matter where I'm at, where

38:18

I live, you know.

38:21

Although Wyoming was a was

38:23

was kind of tough for me. It was a great

38:26

getaway to work on an I say,

38:28

an album, but that was I

38:30

wasn't prepared like to for

38:33

that. But I still

38:35

got it done. But I could do it anywhere.

38:39

It's really a different world. Like growing

38:41

up in New York and going to Wyoming. It's like it's

38:43

different, right right. Definitely.

38:47

Do songs ever come based on

38:50

a concept first? Or is it

38:52

usually based on lines? I

38:54

like, I like when when there's a concept

38:56

before I even get started,

38:58

because I

39:01

get the concept and then I'm like, I'm

39:03

eager to get it done. I'm like, when am I gonna go?

39:06

When am I going to go in the studio? I

39:09

can't wait to do this. I can't wait

39:11

to get in there and do this song. I

39:14

write notes down on my phone, so

39:16

when I'm in the studio, I

39:19

could just look at my notes and

39:22

kind of just close my eyes and just say it.

39:24

And that's

39:27

how a lot of stuff comes up. Now I hear the

39:29

music, and as soon as I hear

39:31

it, I just start I start saying

39:34

the first things that cut in my head. I

39:36

don't write it down, it's just because

39:38

it's too quick, So you just say it,

39:40

you know, I've been doing it so long. You

39:42

just say it, and that's

39:45

how it comes together for me now, So

39:47

it sounds almost like you write it automatically. The

39:49

track comes on. You just freestyle

39:52

essentially, and then

39:55

do you go back and refine? I

39:57

go back and refine. Sometimes

39:59

it's not good. Sometimes I have to go back

40:01

and write it. A lot of times,

40:04

thank you. A lot of times though it's

40:07

good because you know, if you're in a good mood

40:10

or whatever the mood you are in, your

40:13

energies up and you want to lay down some stuff,

40:15

or if you're in a melancholy

40:17

type of mood, you might write something that's

40:19

not the most hyper

40:23

flow, but it still gives you.

40:25

You put your spirit on it and you say what you need

40:27

to say. Is there ever

40:29

a concept that goes

40:32

through a whole album or is it usually

40:35

more song based. I've done

40:37

some concept albums, like the untitled

40:39

album, the recent

40:41

album King's Disease. It

40:44

was just basically like, you know, I'm

40:47

conscious now of all the

40:50

things that we can do

40:53

to hurt ourselves with too

40:56

much, with being excessive,

40:58

with if you're gonna have, if you're gonna

41:00

eat bad. It's all

41:03

in moderation. You gotta watch what

41:05

works for you and what doesn't work for you. So,

41:09

you know, not just the health thing, you

41:11

know, being it's all about you know, a lot of us feel

41:13

like we're kings. A lot of us

41:15

ain't kings. A lot of us.

41:18

Just because you're a man, don't make you a king, you

41:20

know, I think king is uh. There's

41:23

been some terrible kings and recorded history

41:25

also, but um, you

41:28

know you have to like in

41:31

my from my perspective, you got to be a good

41:33

guy, you know. So

41:35

it's like taking care of yourself and those

41:37

around you. How do you think you

41:39

learned that? Because, as you said, there are some bad

41:42

kings. Like how did you learn to

41:44

be cool? That's

41:49

a good one there, right, Um,

41:52

I think I think I learned a lot coming

41:54

up. I think people

41:57

places and in situations

42:00

just watching other people, watching

42:02

it, life experiences where

42:05

I saw myself doing things that

42:07

wasn't right corny, you know, coming

42:09

up, and I'm like mad at myself. Later, like

42:12

you knows, I'm a team and I'm learning

42:15

and I think I know it all. And

42:18

you know, my mom used to tell me things

42:20

and later I'm like she was right,

42:22

Damn. I still say it to this day, to her

42:24

life. She's not here, but I'm like she was

42:27

right about this, and that I shouldn't have trusted

42:29

this. I shouldn't have did this, I should have did that. But

42:31

just just being grateful that I'm

42:34

here, like you know, to

42:36

alive, to to

42:39

to being one of those guys, to come

42:41

from where I come from and

42:43

to be here. Um, I

42:46

see which people, I see which people made

42:48

mistakes. I see which people made

42:50

mistakes, but it wasn't their fault, but their heart

42:52

resented. So I still it's still honorable

42:55

what they did. I start weighing

42:57

things out and trying to

42:59

see what did I want for me and what

43:01

did I want to give back? And

43:04

I always wanted to be somebody that could

43:07

help somebody here, helps mighty

43:09

there, and and

43:12

just just because I want to see them reach

43:15

their full potential, because I think

43:18

that's what we're supposed to do. So that's

43:20

the most important thing. That was it for me? Beautiful?

43:24

How has your relationship to hip

43:26

hop music changed from being

43:29

a kid to now? I

43:31

don't keep up. I can't keep up with the

43:34

music today like I could back then. Back

43:36

then, everything that came out

43:38

was exciting, even the wax stuff. I

43:41

would buy wax stuff sometimes and just

43:43

stare at the albums and what label

43:46

they were on and who produced this, and

43:48

I would just want to understand it all. Now, Nah,

43:52

I'm like nah.

43:55

Sometimes now the things still hit you with that

43:58

are like whoa, this is great?

44:00

Yeah. Yeah, And most of the times

44:02

I don't know who made those records, you

44:04

know. I'm you know, when when the world

44:07

was more normal, I was outside,

44:09

I was at clubs, i was at parties,

44:11

I was around, and

44:14

I'm hearing songs that normally

44:16

I wouldn't know just being in my

44:19

regular life. You know, it was just it

44:21

was the songs. I go, what is that? And I would

44:23

forget to hit shazam, you

44:26

know. So there's

44:29

all kinds of songs you know that that

44:31

hit me. I'm like, who is that guy? Like that guy?

44:34

And as I'm starting to get into this guy, there's

44:36

a whole new movement happening. And

44:38

as I'm getting into this whole new movement, three

44:41

more just started, so I

44:43

figured I'll catch up to it when I get a chance.

44:46

Yeah, it's an exciting time when there's so

44:48

much new stuff. What were you

44:50

thinking working on? It's Yours

44:52

with Tila Rock. I think

44:54

the main purpose of it

44:57

was the feeling of

45:00

the club, like what DJs were

45:02

doing and drum machines and sort of the

45:04

feeling of the hip hop club, which I

45:06

relate to what you experienced at the park.

45:09

It probably very similar, but the

45:11

records that were coming out at that time didn't

45:13

sound like that at all. So It's

45:15

Yours was really just like it was almost like a

45:17

documentary of what the club

45:19

really felt like, right

45:22

versus the records made by professionals

45:24

who didn't really know what happened in the club.

45:27

That was totally the sound and

45:30

Tea Rocks rom schemes

45:32

was crazy. What I always wanted an

45:34

eight O eight rolland eight OW eight or

45:36

nine O nine? Which one did you use on

45:38

that? That was an eight o eight. That

45:41

nine O nine is a little more like um, more

45:46

like euro dancy. It's it's

45:49

like a tighter sound was the eight o eight. It's more

45:51

booming. And you were

45:53

planning on doing a whole Tila Rock album

45:55

or you don't know, probably,

45:58

I mean it was so early in those days.

46:00

Really all there were were singles.

46:02

Hardly anyone had albums,

46:04

so all there really were were twelve

46:06

inches, and I remember Russell said,

46:09

you know, I think this is going to be you know, albums

46:12

is where it's hot, and I didn't. I didn't

46:14

know that albums. You know, I grew up buying

46:16

albums because I liked rock music. But

46:18

it almost felt like what made hip hop hip

46:21

hop at that time were twelve inches, you

46:24

know, twelve inch singles, right, So

46:26

I just thought it was a twelve inch single world.

46:30

So I wasn't thinking so much about albums

46:32

at that time, right. So

46:34

with with Walk This Way, so

46:38

you knew that at this point, Run DMC

46:40

had become the biggest instantly

46:43

the biggest rap group in the world. Um,

46:45

there's still to me, the biggest best

46:47

rap group that ever happened to hip hop. Um,

46:50

you knew that with Arrowsmith that

46:54

they had went as high as they could go,

46:56

and Run DMC and raps high

46:58

they can go, and they needed to merge or what. Nothing

47:01

like that. Nothing like that. It

47:04

was we'd pretty much finished the album without

47:06

Walk This Way on it. And

47:09

I remember I was at a dinner in

47:12

California with

47:15

a guy from a big record company who

47:18

was like trying to convince

47:20

us to come work with

47:22

their record company, and

47:25

he said, how

47:27

can you explain the success

47:30

of this music? How can you explain the

47:32

success of rap? It's not

47:34

even music, Like this isn't music.

47:36

And I started thinking, it's like this

47:39

guy's being nice to me, you know what I

47:41

mean. He's he's he's trying

47:43

to invite me in, and he's telling

47:45

me hip hop isn't music as far as

47:47

he can hear. So I see

47:50

that there's this big disconnect

47:53

between the people who are who

47:55

feel hip hop and the people who don't understand

47:57

it at all. And I was looking

47:59

for something to bridge that gap. And

48:02

because I started thinking about there there are these

48:04

records that are not so far

48:06

off, like you you mentioned one or

48:08

earlier, you mentioned a record earlier that

48:11

you're like, well, this is sort of a precursor to hip

48:13

hop records, and

48:15

like you could see, it's like, oh, this is like the roots

48:17

of hip hop in this. So I just

48:19

started thinking about records that were like rap,

48:22

like vocals that

48:24

somebody who didn't understand rap music

48:26

would understand. And the first song

48:29

that I thought of was Walk This Way, because like the verses

48:31

of Walk this Way are essentially

48:34

rhyme scheme versus but

48:36

people know it as a rock song, So

48:39

it was more as a bridging

48:42

that gap so that people

48:44

could see, Oh, this isn't I

48:46

thought it was more different than it is. It's

48:49

like this is something that's always

48:51

been part of the language. It's just

48:53

a part of the language. It

48:55

made it like rock and rap are the same.

48:57

They are the same, yes,

49:00

and and they and their roots

49:03

are really similar. It's like it's not

49:05

so far different, right

49:08

right, So that was that was the purpose

49:10

of it. It really was just to like, and

49:13

how howd the person not said that

49:15

to me? I wouldn't have felt like

49:17

there was this mission, you know, I had this mission

49:19

of like, people are missing

49:22

what this is. There

49:24

has to be a way to explain what

49:26

it is. Just musically you

49:29

did that. He did

49:31

that. Thank you for that. My

49:33

pleasure, man, It's been

49:35

a pleasure. Same love.

49:39

Speak to you soon, sir Love.

49:45

Thanks to NAS for taking Rick back to the Queen's

49:47

Bridge of the eighties and nineties and reminiscing

49:50

about the early days of himp hop. You

49:52

can hear all of your favorite NAS songs on the playlist

49:54

at Broken record podcast dot com. To

49:57

be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at

49:59

YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast

50:01

where you can find extendicuts of news one

50:04

all of the episodes. Broken Record

50:06

is produced with helpful Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel,

50:09

Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler,

50:11

and our intern Jennifer Sanchez, with

50:13

engineering help from Nick Chaffee and it's

50:15

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50:18

Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and

50:20

if you like Broken Record, please remember to share,

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50:24

At a theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm

50:26

justin Richmond bass