0:15

Pushkin. Twenty

0:20

twenty four was a rough year for jazz.

0:23

A lot of legends were lost, from Quincy Jones

0:25

to Roy Haynes, Low Donaldson and Benny

0:27

Golson. In fact, after the

0:29

passing of Benny Golson, only one person

0:32

remains from the iconic nineteen fifty

0:34

eight photograph A Great Day in Harlem,

0:36

where dozens of jazz luminaries gathered

0:38

together on a stoop and Harlem to have a photograph

0:40

taken to memorialize that era. That

0:43

person is with us today, the great

0:46

Sonny Rollins. Since

0:48

I last spoke to Sonny Rollins on the program a few

0:50

years ago, a couple of interesting artifacts

0:52

have surfaced. One is the notebook

0:55

that he kept while he was in self imposed

0:57

exile for music between nineteen fifty

0:59

eight and nineteen sixty one. Those

1:01

were photocopied and made into a wonderful

1:03

book called The Notebooks of Sonny Rollins, where

1:05

you can get insight into what he was thinking about at

1:07

the time, both socially, politically

1:10

and in terms of his music. The

1:12

other are some great live recordings of Sonny

1:14

in Europe. There was also a great biography

1:17

published about Sunny Rollins. Since we last spoke

1:19

by Aidan Levy called Saxophone Colossus

1:21

The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins. So

1:24

though last year was a tough year for jazz, I'm

1:26

honored at the top of twenty twenty five to

1:28

bring you a conversation with a

1:31

saxophone colossus himself, Sonny

1:33

Rollins. This

1:37

is broken record liner notes for the

1:39

digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. We

1:46

spoke a couple of years ago and

1:48

had a really nice conversation. But

1:50

I guess since that time, lots come out

1:52

about you. There's been a whole set

1:55

of records that were previously

1:57

just bootlegs, that were sets

1:59

of recordings from Europe in nineteen fifty

2:02

nine came out and those were really beautiful to listen

2:04

to. You had a biography

2:07

come out, pretty substantial biography, and

2:09

a book of your notebooks curated and

2:11

distilled down into a book

2:14

form.

2:15

Yeah yeah, So.

2:16

I thought, man, maybe maybe it'd be cool to have another

2:19

conversation and talk about some of the stuff.

2:22

Okay, well, I'm down for it.

2:24

Whatever you think might be important

2:28

for you or

2:30

anybody else to know. Give

2:33

for this shot.

2:36

First of all, you did it some pretty substantial

2:38

interviews. It appears to me from reading the book.

2:40

For the book, was that an enjoyable

2:42

process to revisit the

2:44

entirety of your life the way you did well?

2:48

You know, as a guy

2:50

that's been around so long,

2:53

if I have now you

2:55

know which, who knows? I never thought

2:57

i'd be when there's a large

3:00

steep of spanding. But I've

3:03

done a lot of interviews.

3:06

I had a lot of different times, man,

3:10

But I'm not a guy that likes

3:12

to look back at

3:15

my interviews.

3:17

Do you listen to old recordings of yourself

3:19

anymore? No?

3:20

I don't listen to my records.

3:23

I never have, and

3:26

which is not always good. I

3:28

don't think that's good. When

3:30

I used to work with Mile, she used

3:32

to every night that

3:36

we do a concert, he'd

3:39

have it recorded and come

3:41

home and listen

3:43

to it and

3:46

therefore knowing what he

3:48

needed to do or needed

3:51

to delete or

3:53

anything like that. I wish I

3:55

had that type of personality,

3:59

but generally I'm always

4:02

feeling that I'm not. You

4:05

know, Oh God, I hate to hear that,

4:07

listen to that that it

4:10

played, I should have played that better, blah

4:13

blah blah. That's the type of personality

4:16

that I was damned

4:19

with. U disfortunately

4:23

do.

4:24

When Miles would listen back to those recordings,

4:26

would you have you and the rest of the band listen

4:28

as well?

4:30

No, he would use that,

4:32

I'm sure when he was

4:35

rehearsing the band, but

4:38

it wasn't listening everybody listening.

4:41

I means he didn't need that. He listened

4:43

to what he thought should

4:45

be happening. And that

4:49

was said.

4:50

But having had the chance to look through

4:54

some of the pages of your notebooks that

4:56

were you were keeping from around

4:58

nineteen fifty nine through the

5:01

late sixties, it does

5:03

appear you were very

5:06

meaningfully recording thoughts

5:08

about your plane and where

5:10

you felt improvements could be made. So there

5:14

is a part of you that was already doing

5:16

that, it seems to me, but maybe just in a

5:18

different and a different way.

5:20

Well, I was being interviewed

5:22

a lot, and

5:26

I had to make comments, but something

5:29

if the record came out and

5:32

I had to talk about it. Yeah,

5:35

I heard it, whether it was on

5:37

the radio or whatever,

5:39

but I didn't take it home

5:43

myself and listen to it.

5:46

That's what I mean. But

5:49

no, I'm when I said

5:51

is exactly correct. I'm

5:54

not a guy that really listened.

5:57

Two things that I did more

5:59

than once or twice to

6:02

realize, oh man, I really

6:04

didn't like that.

6:05

Yeah, I want to ask about Freedom Sweet

6:08

if you don't mind, if

6:10

you can recall

6:13

what might have been on your mind around

6:16

nineteen fifty eight, shortly

6:18

before you take

6:20

a bit of a sabbatical and

6:23

you write and record Freedom

6:25

Suite. It's a stunning almost

6:27

twenty minute piece. That is

6:29

the title song of the album

6:32

as well, and it

6:34

seems like it stands out in

6:36

your early sort of catalog, just

6:38

that there's nothing quite like that in your early catalog

6:41

to that date. And so I was just curious

6:43

if you can recall what was your

6:46

feeling around that time when that was composed.

6:48

Well, I

6:51

have always been especially

6:55

from that period, but also

6:57

from before. I was

6:59

sort of very Pabeitico

7:03

guy, you know. And

7:07

it's interesting out that there a

7:10

lot of of no

7:13

young black musicians

7:16

which have been out

7:19

that out that have been out

7:23

you know, much more recently than either.

7:27

But when I

7:29

was growing up, I

7:32

was born in Harlem. I used to go

7:35

out when I was I

7:37

think about three

7:40

years old with my grandmother.

7:43

My grandmother was an activist.

7:46

She's very much interested in

7:49

traightening out the UH

7:52

in a racial situation in

7:55

Harlem and in any

7:57

place out the same exist today.

8:00

I didn't have to explain that to you,

8:02

how to say the situations.

8:06

She was an activist. I

8:08

think she was a member of Marcus

8:10

Garvey's group at

8:13

one time.

8:13

Wow.

8:14

But anyway, she used

8:16

to carry me with her watching

8:19

up and down at Lenox

8:21

Favenue, for instance, and

8:24

we were complaining

8:26

about one of the big

8:28

department stots there I

8:31

think was called Ballooneberg's, which

8:34

you know didn't allow the black

8:37

people to innser that the counters

8:39

and other kind of stuff. So

8:42

I remember free

8:44

Tom Mooney and the Scotts

8:47

Boy, the Scott'swell boys

8:49

to has and you know we're

8:52

accused of rape and all that found

8:55

out something

8:57

like the Central Park Cathy

9:00

sometimes Okay,

9:02

So I was introduced

9:05

to that period of activity.

9:09

He had an early, very very

9:11

early age, and

9:13

as I said, I was the only one.

9:16

My grandmother and myself. My

9:19

mother was in there, she said, in power of

9:21

it. My brother turned

9:23

out to be a medical

9:25

doctor, so he was busy,

9:28

although he did he was interested

9:30

in music, but not jazz

9:33

music, so he ended

9:35

up becoming an m day.

9:39

So he quit the music thing all together

9:42

and my sister just turned out

9:44

to be a mother with

9:47

two kids. So what

9:49

I'm saying is that my grandmother

9:53

would carry me, and

9:56

that was I liked that. I made. Of

9:58

course I such a little baby, but I

10:01

like that. And then so I got

10:04

to read people like W.

10:06

E. B. Do Boys and

10:09

other people. You guys

10:11

were into the

10:14

Black collaboration movement, and

10:18

as I grew up and

10:20

they began I remember

10:23

W. E. B. Duboys.

10:26

Do you know who he was?

10:29

Yeah, great scholar, activist,

10:31

scholar of the construction.

10:33

So w the boys just say

10:36

that if you ever and

10:40

he wasn't talking to me, he was talking

10:42

to anybody black.

10:45

He said, if you ever got any place

10:47

in your field, whatever

10:49

it was, that you should always

10:52

mention the fact that you

10:54

were aware of the

10:56

situation in the United Okay.

11:01

So when I

11:03

got to the point that

11:06

I began make you records,

11:09

I always used boat

11:11

from in there and I

11:14

emigrated. I

11:17

can't. Oh,

11:20

you know, I used to be a very good speaker

11:22

like this. But what happened with

11:25

some time ago, about

11:27

a year ago, I had a very serious

11:29

accident, and that it

11:32

has affected my rememberance,

11:35

my thought rememberance. But

11:38

actually, do forgive

11:40

me sometimes but whatever

11:42

segment drug, I used a lot

11:45

of uh nebro ballad

11:48

and I put them my jazz records.

11:51

You know, the libro natural

11:53

I A'm from. I put

11:56

that on my albums a long

11:58

time ago. Yeah, but uh

12:01

I think Kenny Dorham was im

12:03

with me and that. But so

12:05

I've I've always done that in

12:08

my career. Yeah. So the

12:10

Freedom Street, getting

12:12

back to your question, was

12:15

all coming from that place.

12:20

You know, that's sort of what the Streedom

12:22

Street was about, and

12:25

things of your nature. I've just

12:27

always had that political

12:32

direction and myself,

12:35

I read a book reci and

12:38

it was mentioning all of these

12:40

guys that they were you

12:42

know, they were speaking optual, gold

12:45

independent, lot of these younger

12:48

magician and I

12:50

was a little bit said,

12:53

wait, man, where's me? I was

12:55

doing this a long time ago.

12:57

Yeah.

12:58

Yeah, anyway,

13:01

that's that's all

13:03

on record. So that was

13:05

the Freedom Street.

13:07

You were mentioning a lot of the

13:10

black ballads that you would

13:13

early on, including your sets. It's

13:16

interesting to me that kind of equal

13:18

to those was your love of

13:21

show tunes or tunes

13:23

that might have appeared

13:25

I've heard you talk about. You know, for

13:27

instance, you've seen the movie Swing

13:29

Time when you were about six years old,

13:32

with Fredistaire and Ginger Rogers and a

13:34

Fine Romance being a song that I

13:36

was stuck with you. Oh yeah,

13:38

how important were those sorts of songs

13:41

to you as well?

13:42

Well? I don't know. I guess

13:45

if you looked back, you might say, real,

13:48

see, how did you like

13:50

that? And still wanter change

13:53

you with it? Sire. Tune was sewed

13:55

up, but didn't in

13:57

those days. Our television

14:01

was the movie every

14:03

week, so I

14:06

had a chance to

14:09

ye a lot of Hollywood

14:11

movie There was nothing in

14:15

jail with me. For instance.

14:18

My favorite composer, and

14:21

I had many of them, but my favorite

14:24

guy was Jerome

14:26

curR oh

14:29

Man. Jerome Kerr is still my

14:31

favorite of those Hollywood

14:33

composers, although I

14:35

have many of them that

14:37

I admire, deegally,

14:40

but Jerome Kern was a man by

14:43

the way. He did do the picture

14:46

with Fred Mister and

14:48

Ginger Rogers.

14:50

Swing Time that was that was his

14:52

tune of Fine Romance and all those other songs.

14:54

Yeah yeah, all that stuff,

14:56

all that and so many

14:59

of his helf so but there

15:01

was never any things

15:03

that made those unaccessible

15:08

in my I loved

15:12

string Time and

15:15

such film as

15:17

much as I hated the

15:20

fact that I couldn't go into Bloomberg

15:23

SIT's with the big department store

15:26

on one hundred and twenty first Street, and

15:29

they were buying a soda or

15:31

something at the bar. You

15:35

know, my musical

15:37

and my sensitivity

15:40

being moved by these single's

15:42

all the frame. Yeah, but I

15:45

think different, not to them, to

15:47

somebody that might

15:50

write there, I make fall.

15:52

They don't. They don't like

15:54

jad. I've heard that. I've

15:57

heard the guy that prayed

16:00

with Johnny Green, who wrote A

16:03

Body and Soul, I heard

16:05

him tell me that, oh, well,

16:07

Johnny Green didn't like I

16:09

jazzed Beopole, we'll playing

16:12

its music, you

16:14

know, which to me,

16:17

I wonder if that

16:19

was really true, because when

16:22

Johnny Green was in college,

16:25

he had a group called

16:28

the Hot Jazz. I mean, so

16:30

you know a lot of these guys

16:33

who gave that impression of, oh,

16:36

our music is better than your

16:38

music, you know,

16:40

that kind of stuff, which might dad have really

16:43

been true.

16:45

And then again, if Johnny Green didn't like you

16:48

guys playing his tunes,

16:51

oh well, you

16:54

know, maybe in a sense

16:56

all the better that you guys were doing it.

16:58

Then well I think

17:00

it did. But whether he

17:02

liked it or not, nobody

17:05

could play body and so like

17:07

Coleman Alkins, yeah

17:09

that that was his uh masterpiece.

17:12

Yeah, but it really uh

17:15

was perfect for jazz, like

17:18

so many of those films are anyway.

17:22

I like everything that makes

17:25

uh beautiful musical sounds

17:28

and uh beautiful

17:31

musical people and so it's all

17:33

the same to me. I never

17:35

had a problem whenever personally

17:39

to uh some of those early movies.

17:41

Bright the way when Lewis

17:43

Armstrong did a

17:46

single in the movie. Now,

17:48

evidently there's a lot of people

17:50

that they don't

17:52

want that America. They want

17:55

America which is propagated,

17:59

and that's that's okay. I

18:01

mean, it's not okay with me, but

18:04

I uh, I had

18:07

to accept what they think

18:10

because that's the way it has turned

18:12

out. But growing

18:15

up, I appreciate

18:17

you that Paul Robeston and

18:20

all that my really idols

18:24

and I wanted to be a

18:28

red like human being without

18:31

having to be a black human being.

18:35

It's so in itself for so it

18:38

all made sense to me. It still

18:40

does. I'm muddy

18:43

enough to realize that there's

18:45

history to always people fighting

18:49

each other. The stoop is fighting that

18:51

they're fighting, that they're fighting that and

18:55

we haven't gotten to that point yet,

18:58

or I don't think we

19:00

may ever get to that point

19:03

in this world, or

19:05

I've made my life for what it did. So

19:07

I like Horded movies,

19:10

co music, and I love

19:13

jazz, and uh really

19:17

nothing strange

19:19

to my bad combination.

19:21

To me, did movies

19:23

continue throughout your career to be a

19:26

source of inspiration to you?

19:29

Yes, up until the point

19:31

that I stopped going to movies. But yeah,

19:34

I would say, I mean the American

19:38

dream was always in

19:41

lil and racist

19:44

and all of this stuff somehow

19:48

had never stopped me from liking,

19:52

uh, finding more fashion.

19:59

We'll be right back with more of a conversation with Sonny

20:01

Rollins after the break. You

20:07

just said that the American dream is

20:09

always in you. What does that mean to you?

20:13

Well, it means that there's

20:15

a couder and there's a natural

20:18

good, like Duke Kellington settling.

20:20

They asked Duke Kellington, Well,

20:23

gee, do what he thinks about this

20:26

kind of music in that and

20:29

Douke was known

20:31

to say there's only two

20:34

kinds of music, good

20:36

music and bad music, and

20:39

that told it all.

20:41

Yeah, nothing else on

20:43

that note. Would you mind if I read to

20:46

you an excerpt of something

20:48

you wrote in your journals from around

20:50

nineteen fifty nine.

20:52

Okay, surprised

20:56

me because I haven't

20:58

read my journals or

21:02

my bigger book,

21:05

so but go ahead.

21:06

Yeah, okay, great, Well, I'm sorry for this. Sets

21:09

you all let me know, but I think it's really beautiful.

21:13

You say, even

21:15

if there are more brilliant quote

21:17

unquote jazz in the modern interpretations

21:20

of the word, more brilliant jazz

21:22

artists and innovators among the quote

21:24

unquote Negro race, this

21:27

in no way contradicts the quasi

21:30

racial nature of jazz.

21:33

And mustn't we start speaking of music

21:36

all caps and not jazz? Cannot

21:39

this be the same principle by which

21:41

people are deluded into divisions,

21:45

divisions which are treacherously

21:47

misleading by their external

21:49

manifestations. Who

21:51

can deny that the greatest of any music

21:55

is of a oneness which transcends

21:57

period, style, country,

22:00

et cetera. It is the

22:02

same line of reasoning which separates people

22:05

on the basis of their physical impressions.

22:09

To be absorbed here is that any

22:11

definition which seeks to separate Bach

22:13

from Miles Davis is defeating its

22:15

own purpose of clarification. Thus

22:19

we shall now hereafter and henceforth

22:21

integrate, if you will, the word jazz

22:24

into the word music. The

22:26

musings of Miles is then the bouncing

22:28

of Bach, both played against each

22:30

other.

22:32

Oh well, okay,

22:34

but you know, BET's exactly

22:37

how I feel.

22:39

Yeah, it seems to be a core part

22:41

of you that believe because because just as you said now,

22:43

you wrote back in nineteen fifty

22:45

nine, and the same in the same

22:47

way, that it's all one, not to be

22:50

discerned by period or style

22:53

or country or race.

22:55

Oh no, I think so. But Bet

22:58

may be a little bit too, I

23:01

don't know, heavenly or trum like

23:04

that. I mean, maybe the world

23:07

is just not meant

23:09

to be like that. Maybe

23:11

the world is meant to be

23:13

fighting and fighting all

23:16

the time. But that's

23:19

okay, that's that I didn't make the world.

23:21

I'm not God. So if

23:24

the world is the world is like

23:26

this, be it must

23:29

be some reason that

23:33

I I'm not attuned

23:36

to. I don't know everything, but

23:40

the world has produced and

23:43

and jazz and the

23:46

whole thing. If she wanted to go further

23:49

than talk about America, okay,

23:53

I think that's for America too. But evidently

23:57

America is not all everybody

24:00

that should think like that, Richard. It's

24:04

sad, but it's it's

24:06

bad like that's I have to disaccept

24:08

it. And I've

24:11

seen people get along that's

24:14

wintering. I've got

24:16

a lot of white friends.

24:19

So that's what I think.

24:22

For me, with the great environment,

24:25

my life was went

24:29

playing music and trying

24:31

to get better. It wasn't I

24:34

could have been better, but I always

24:36

loved it and I still love it. Yeah,

24:39

still love Coleman Hawkins and body

24:42

and Soul, and I

24:44

still love Jerome Kern. I

24:48

still love Nat King Cold and

24:51

the Trail Can Cold

24:53

till.

24:54

Yeah.

24:55

Yeah. It was real base and right.

24:59

So I mean it's

25:01

all good manterccy. At this

25:03

point in my life when and

25:06

the last one standing, I

25:10

want that to be my epitheph.

25:13

I love it all. I

25:15

love it all.

25:17

You just referenced me the last man's standing

25:19

as we're speaking. You know, Benny Golson

25:22

just passed away, right, and

25:26

that really does make you the last

25:28

of that fine day and Harlem

25:31

photo. Yeah, which is astonishing.

25:34

It's trying to change. It's a good word.

25:39

It is astonishing.

25:42

What came up in you when

25:44

you when you heard Benny Golson had left the

25:46

planet.

25:47

Well, when it came

25:49

down to Benny and myself

25:52

at that point, you know, I had

25:54

thought it for me, what

25:57

isnt what? It didn't mean, It

26:01

couldn't mean all that, and

26:04

one of us had to go. It's

26:07

okay. I mean, you know, my

26:10

time is probably quite soon

26:13

now, I guess. But

26:17

you know, I feel okay about it. I

26:20

haven't done everything I wanted

26:22

to do, but I

26:26

guess the fact that you're

26:28

interviewing me here, and so

26:31

I guess I've done some things.

26:33

I've got some things right. That

26:36

everything right, I've got some things

26:39

right that I can be grateful

26:41

for. I do have

26:43

a very strong situal

26:46

connection in my

26:49

life now, and as

26:51

you know, I've been into Eastern

26:54

religion for

26:57

a long time now, so

26:59

you know that makes things really

27:02

okay. You know, so

27:05

whatever comes paid, it's

27:07

okay.

27:09

Do you have a daily spiritual practice these

27:11

days?

27:13

Well, yes, I do, but it's it's

27:15

not like a prayer or

27:17

something like that. I

27:20

do say prayers, but not

27:22

a specific prayer. You

27:25

know. I went to India back in

27:28

the sixties and

27:30

I got some information there from

27:33

some people that had

27:35

something to say that interested

27:38

me. I wanted

27:40

to know about should

27:42

I be practicing and playing

27:46

and uh, you know with

27:48

it. In other words, wasn't oh

27:50

okay what my life was at

27:52

that time? And

27:55

they got assurance that it

27:57

was okay. I

28:00

needed that assurance. I received

28:03

it from some beautiful

28:05

people on not over there. So

28:08

yes, that spirituality

28:12

he had as

28:14

off. Now I'm

28:16

so happy that I did begin

28:19

studying Eastern

28:22

religion. I did that when

28:24

I followed this guy

28:28

powered my Hunter Yoga Nanda Autobiography

28:32

of a Yogi, which

28:34

is a very popular book. And

28:37

I read that book and that boy

28:40

I got to find out about this. And

28:44

I had went to California

28:49

wanting to meet the power Hunter

28:52

over night. He had just passed

28:54

over it. But so I

28:57

didn't meet him. But I realized, well,

28:59

look I'm going to India because

29:02

it's something here. And I

29:06

got a bag and

29:09

my own and I went

29:11

to India. Wow

29:14

paid off. So glad I did

29:16

it and learned something.

29:19

And you passed it to us. You know in your music,

29:22

your music always feels very spiritually

29:25

elevated, you know, just in

29:27

terms of the biographical details of your life. That's

29:29

something that people are very interested in, and so

29:32

it's something that's a gift that you've given all of us. So

29:34

thank you so much.

29:36

Well, there's so much for saying

29:40

that I ain't loved. Man,

29:42

I'm not my biggest

29:44

fan, so I'm not a guy that

29:48

think that, Oh I'm strunning. Wrong, we get

29:50

out of here. I'm not my

29:52

biggest friend at all. That's

29:55

how we started the conversation about

29:59

listening to my own music and all that. Yeah,

30:02

but I didn't get

30:04

it at all. But

30:07

I made an impression, and

30:11

I think I've learned something. I'm

30:13

glad that some people have appreciated

30:17

some of my work. Yeah, but

30:20

I'm very happy by be but

30:22

not that I appreciated

30:25

it, but that I

30:27

enabled them to get it, which

30:30

validated me. Because

30:33

you know, I'm not my biggest fan. Yeah,

30:37

if you come to my house, you won't find

30:40

a portrait of me all

30:42

over the walls.

30:44

Okay, yeah,

30:47

I get that sense. You do not

30:49

appear to be that person.

30:51

Oh god, okay,

30:54

I'm try from that

30:57

kid.

30:59

Last time I spoke, I neglected

31:01

to ask you about Rufus

31:03

Harley bagpipe player. Right,

31:08

what are you remembering of him? And he's

31:10

playing.

31:12

I always loved Ruverson playing.

31:15

When I heard him playing, I

31:18

know he played saxophone before

31:21

Yeah, he got into the backpacks.

31:23

But anyway, he was a great

31:26

magician. I think I had

31:28

a great concert in

31:31

New York, got at Town Hall

31:34

with Dissy Gelesbie,

31:38

Charlie Mingers, Rulfa

31:41

Sorry, and myself.

31:43

I forgot so that.

31:45

That was my wife,

31:48

my their departed wife, Lucil,

31:52

who convinced all

31:55

of those sep up to make that concert

31:57

because one

32:00

of the people had dropped out and

32:03

that was a

32:05

important concert just

32:08

for my reputation, all

32:11

that kind of stuff. And

32:13

she got Mingus. She was a good friends

32:15

with Mngus's wife

32:18

for Shu, and

32:21

so she got Mingus, which is

32:24

not easy to get Mngus to do something

32:26

he doesn't want to do. And

32:29

then she got Dizzy

32:32

come and make that show that night.

32:35

And of course you and Dizzy were great

32:37

friends. Did you and Mingus get along?

32:40

Oh yeah, I mean as much

32:42

as as one

32:45

would get along with Mingus. We

32:47

had a little trouble in the beginning

32:51

because Mingus didn't know me and

32:54

I was playing in one

32:57

of the clubs and he

32:59

was playing at And you know,

33:01

there's something that Max Roach and

33:04

Mingus is to I guess other guys

33:06

that I didn't know because I

33:09

was a young guy coming on to the

33:11

seat. If there were two people

33:13

on the bill and

33:16

Mingus would get

33:18

on the stage, they'd play the

33:21

whole night, the whole night.

33:24

Max would do that too. I've seen Max

33:26

do that due to guys.

33:29

So it's kind of but

33:33

you know, you have to accept it. I

33:36

did, but i'd got back at Mingus

33:39

one time at the

33:41

Village Vanguard, who and Mingus

33:44

didn't play? And Max

33:46

god and call me up and

33:48

I said sure, and

33:51

I came up and that sort of whut

33:54

a little ref between Mingus

33:57

and I. Let's

33:59

see who was this

34:02

guy? Uh through a baraka?

34:05

Oh yeah, do you know him?

34:07

Yeah? Yeah, I'm married yea the critic

34:09

writer, critic.

34:11

Right, he was in the club,

34:14

and they all thought that I would

34:16

sort of use surping, you

34:19

know, Mingus, him

34:21

and everything to play that

34:24

gig, which would have been

34:26

his gig. But it

34:30

gave me a change to

34:32

get back at Mingus.

34:35

And after that, Mingus and I

34:37

became close friends.

34:42

Were you around his drummer, Danny Richmond

34:44

Munch? I always found it interesting that

34:46

he really never played with many

34:49

other drum I mean, I think I can think of Max

34:52

roachs a bit, but I

34:54

always thought that was such a funny parent

34:56

great pairing though musically, But no.

34:59

I never got a change to pray with

35:02

Danny Richmond. Danny

35:04

Richmond was always with

35:07

Mingers, fevered,

35:10

and I never got a chance to

35:14

hardly No, Dad Richard, but

35:18

no, unfortunately we

35:20

never played together. Okay, I'm

35:23

sure it would have been very

35:26

rockad, but I never

35:28

did get a chance of private.

35:30

Yeah that it would have been interesting to hear you past

35:33

together, for sure. Yeah,

35:36

unique player, he was, as are you.

35:39

Yeah, oh yeah,

35:42

No, No, I enjoyed his work,

35:45

but I only heard him with Mingers.

35:48

You know.

35:49

Yeah, you wound

35:52

up doing a couple of Stevie tunes,

35:54

but you definitely did. Isn't she lovely at

35:56

a certain point? Right, What

35:59

did you make of the music of Stevie Wonder?

36:02

Well, I think Stevie Wonder is great.

36:05

I mean, Stevie Wonder had that come

36:09

and touch, if I

36:11

can put it that way.

36:14

So he certainly was

36:16

the person that appealed to

36:19

the I

36:22

want to use another term now, which

36:25

you understand that he

36:27

appealed to the hip hop

36:29

generation. But

36:32

he was also a

36:35

really great,

36:37

profound musician who

36:41

was there for everybody. He

36:43

was just extremely talented

36:47

that he had those

36:50

kind of chops. Yeah,

36:53

I don't know anything I was going one day.

36:56

Gear. I wouldn't have he ever

36:59

played with Miles.

37:03

That's a good question. I'm not sure.

37:05

Yeah, I don't think so. And

37:07

what they would think of each

37:09

other, that would

37:11

be what I would would wonder. Would they

37:15

appreciate each other?

37:18

You know, there was now that you mentioned

37:21

it isn't going

37:23

to say about Stevie wasn't so nice,

37:25

but yeah,

37:28

he said, Stevie wondered, Now, now

37:30

there's a sad motherfucker. He thinks

37:33

I stole Michael Henderson from

37:35

him, which I guess was just

37:37

a player, you know, was a player, No,

37:41

my.

37:43

Complete character from age

37:46

to say.

37:47

Yeah, yeah, When I was reading

37:50

through your Saxophone Colossus

37:53

biography and it got to

37:55

the section where you played

37:57

a few songs on the Rolling Stones album,

37:59

and that chapter sort of talked a bit

38:01

about how that happened and

38:03

sort of your thoughts about it and

38:06

the thoughts of others about it. And

38:09

the response is

38:12

interesting because I think some people really enjoy

38:15

that work. Other people

38:18

may be viewed it as an inauthentic

38:21

move. I was just

38:23

wondering the idea of authenticity

38:27

in jazz music through the sixties

38:30

and seventies and eighties. Was that something

38:32

that you spent a lot of time thinking about.

38:35

Well, I did, and actually

38:39

my wife convinced

38:42

me to make that album.

38:45

They finally had a way

38:48

that that jazz musicians

38:51

from the States could

38:53

play in England.

38:55

They had a band for some unions

38:59

all right. Anyway, finally

39:02

they began playing and using

39:06

British traditions, playing

39:08

with people getting up, following over

39:10

there and everything like

39:13

that. Somehow

39:15

I found out that

39:17

men Jagon wanted me to play in

39:20

one of their records. So

39:25

my reaction

39:27

was that I

39:29

thought that that would

39:31

be a come down for me to do

39:34

that, and I really

39:36

had to argue

39:39

with my wife about that, so

39:42

she convinced

39:44

me to do it. But

39:47

to me, it was a come down to

39:50

do that.

39:51

Is that because it felt inauthentic

39:54

to you or for some other

39:57

reason.

39:58

Well, it didn't. Jeet was

40:02

of a higher level than the

40:05

blues that they were playing.

40:08

Yeah, that's

40:10

all. I mean, there wasn't anything

40:12

except that.

40:14

Now, I mean, come on, you, what do

40:16

you want you want to hit Charlie

40:18

Parker or would

40:20

you want to hear uh into

40:23

those guys understand.

40:25

Yes, so that's the way I was putting

40:27

out completely.

40:30

Yeah, but then the the Beatles

40:32

and Stevie Wonder as

40:34

popular musicians felt much more

40:37

on a similar plane, at least

40:40

to you.

40:41

Yes, and in the terms of uh,

40:44

the Beatles that have a more

40:48

rounded repertoire

40:51

and sewing than

40:53

the Romans showings. Yeah, okay,

40:56

the Roman Stones did ask

41:00

me to do the tour of

41:03

that record that they had put out that

41:06

I would throwing tattoo.

41:10

Yeah, that's it. After

41:12

this last break, we'll be back with the rest of my conversation

41:15

with Sonny Robins. Would

41:21

you say, in a sense the different

41:23

classes of saxophone players from

41:25

alto soprano, alto tenor

41:28

baritone, I mean, were those almost like

41:30

weight classes in boxing in a sense.

41:33

Well, tenor saxophone

41:37

took the prime feet

41:42

because at one time we had some beautiful

41:45

Of course, we had the

41:47

great Charlie Parker, the

41:51

Beaba Up Originator, and

41:54

that really shook

41:57

everything up for a while. But

41:59

then came the tender Place, whole

42:03

Train, Pitture,

42:05

Gordon and

42:08

what l Gray, all

42:11

these people, this guy's

42:14

Funny Rowins, all

42:16

these guys so the Tender

42:19

became the

42:21

folkrom.

42:21

I would say, it's

42:24

almost as if because Charlie Parker

42:26

on Alto was just so groundbreaking

42:31

and just so revered that it

42:33

almost in hindsight appears that everyone just

42:35

kind of took a different path after

42:37

this, like maybe we need to steer clear of the Alto

42:40

And could that have been what sort

42:42

of made so many great players coalesce

42:45

around tenor.

42:47

We also had the

42:50

great Coleman Hawkins, a great

42:53

Lester Young, the

42:56

great Ben Webster. Yeah,

42:59

they're great, Showberry. These are

43:01

some great, great players.

43:04

Now this

43:06

led Charlie Parker have it because

43:09

Charlie Parker did

43:11

what he did, which was beyond instrumentation,

43:15

So he was always Charlie Parker

43:18

or Altough, but Tender

43:21

began to take pretty

43:25

dominant position. We

43:27

all know we couldn't beat Charlie Parker,

43:30

but we could be less

43:33

to Young h the

43:36

great, great great rest to Young.

43:39

Yeah, so they

43:41

each had their own place out

43:44

though. Of course we had Johnny Hodges,

43:48

the great great auto player

43:50

from Duke Elgin's cooop, and

43:55

we had Benny Carter, another

43:58

great great Alto player. If

44:01

you played altough great

44:03

like these guys said, well, you

44:06

would set nobody

44:09

is going to mess with Benny Carter. They could

44:11

admit and my

44:13

him admit that he was

44:16

first christ right. And

44:20

when it came to ten and wall I

44:23

February had a lot of

44:25

feeble. My favorite

44:28

the great Coleman Hawkins,

44:31

but also my other

44:33

favorite was the great Less

44:35

to Him, both

44:38

extremely different

44:40

than this style for fill so

44:43

so great.

44:46

I just had a point of clarification. I

44:48

read one place, but I haven't been able to find

44:50

it anywhere else that you did

44:52

play in Lionelhampton's band in

44:54

the early fifties. Did

44:56

you ever play in Hampton's band

44:59

when Quincy Jones was in the band? No,

45:02

no, okay.

45:04

I didn't have a lot of big band experience

45:07

because just as I

45:09

getting to be extremely

45:12

famous, I started

45:14

playing with Small Ghost and

45:18

so the big brands.

45:21

In a way, I am missed

45:24

opportunity, but time

45:26

just brought me to be the one

45:29

I never pardon with these guys.

45:31

Yeah, what did you make of Quincy

45:33

Jones? Because he's someone who started in jazz and

45:36

it never seemed to leave him. It seemed

45:38

like he always had a deep

45:40

love of jazz throughout his life, but

45:42

would often go out into other areas

45:45

of music.

45:46

Well, Quincy had a very

45:50

wide relationship

45:53

for jazz. I

45:55

remember when I first met

45:57

Clint. We

46:00

was playing in Philadelphia and

46:02

we were trying to get the last tray

46:05

coming to New York

46:09

and get that last strain after

46:12

the last show his Philadelphia.

46:16

Wow. Well boy, then you

46:18

rushed down to the station and

46:21

to get that chrain. Sometimes you caught

46:23

it, sometimes you didn't. I

46:25

remember with Quincher he didn't

46:28

catch it one night, a

46:30

real uh pain in the

46:32

neck productive at the strain

46:35

belly, Oh at night.

46:38

Good boy. He had a lot of composition

46:42

and winch He

46:44

definitely made an impression.

46:47

It seemed at first he really did want to be an

46:50

ace trumpet player, but at some point

46:52

realized, well I have all these other things that I

46:55

like and can do composing and

46:57

arranging. And he did

46:59

manage to find his place, you

47:01

know, even if it wasn't the initial thing he set

47:04

out for.

47:05

Yeah, I think that

47:07

he wouldn't be filled that player. I'm

47:10

not certain, but she

47:13

was. When I first

47:16

got involved with the

47:19

Quince, he was playing trumpet

47:22

in Diysy Chalstree's orchestra.

47:25

No I've never heard of him played trump

47:27

and half the best. I

47:29

guess he began composer and pay

47:32

that took over.

47:34

Yeah.

47:38

Yeah, he's a terrific a

47:41

musician to listen musician.

47:43

Did you guys keep in touch over the years.

47:46

Yeah, meet Quincey

47:48

a lot of times at

47:51

the White House and

47:53

places like that when he both

47:56

be selected at being extraordinary

48:01

musician.

48:02

So yeah, you guys received the Presidential

48:04

Medal of Freedom from Barack Obama.

48:06

Yeah, and Quincey was probably the

48:09

day. Yeah, I

48:12

uh remember one time

48:14

I stay at the Fourth Seasons

48:17

in New York and he

48:19

came Quincy. This

48:21

was the time of nine and eleven. Quincy

48:25

came in with some other

48:28

people and the head on this

48:31

in head the

48:33

workers June. So I

48:35

gets through the writing something

48:37

that had to do with ninety

48:40

eleven or something. But he

48:42

wrote some kind of music, probably

48:45

commemorate. Yes, had

48:48

a terrible incident that

48:51

happened to it.

48:52

Now, what about lou Donaldson?

48:55

Did you cross past Lord

48:57

Donaldson? Lord

48:59

Donaldson was one

49:02

of my best

49:05

saxophone this He was

49:07

just a wonderful a

49:10

person, you know, as well as great

49:13

The months of days i't talking about

49:17

had great, great talent, but

49:19

they were all twelve wonderful

49:22

people that thought so

49:24

great about Chads. All of these

49:26

guys were wonderful people. Loud

49:30

Donaldson, I wrote

49:32

something I loved thing after

49:35

he passed because

49:37

I felt so close to low But

49:40

I never got a change to

49:42

see him in later years. But

49:45

I felt so close to because

49:48

they were good friends in the early years

49:52

when he first came on the scene.

49:55

And uh, we

49:57

knew each other the way back when

50:00

we used to follow a New York child

50:04

had the polo ground to New York.

50:07

Wow, privilege

50:10

drive into known,

50:13

Lord donalds mm

50:15

hmm. While we're

50:18

here, you better

50:20

try to be ready

50:22

to be judged

50:26

by something some way, who

50:28

knows where. But

50:31

you let me judge. You met me a good guy.

50:34

I've seen guys that were

50:37

not so good, and I've

50:39

seen some good guys

50:43

anyway, Lord

50:45

Donald's ape

50:47

us. Yeah.

50:50

After Quincy passed away, there was a quote

50:52

circulating where he said that early on

50:54

he learned that your music can ever be

50:56

more or less than who you are as a human being.

50:59

And your comment

51:01

that so many of these jazz guys

51:04

and guys were beautiful

51:06

human beings, I mean, the

51:08

reason that I feel it seems it must

51:11

be the reason it's been able to last as long as it

51:13

has is because of the spirit that's imbued

51:15

in it from it's

51:17

practitioners. It's really you guys are really

51:20

trying to relate to the human condition as

51:23

closely as you possibly could, you

51:26

know, And it feels that way still.

51:27

Yeah, I don't know how it happened,

51:30

but I mean, I

51:32

guess that's how it happened. We

51:34

were so close to

51:36

the human condition through

51:40

music is pretty great thing. All

51:44

of the guys I know who

51:46

had a well known musician were

51:49

very nice people, very

51:52

nice people. But

51:55

wasn't all of this stuff for gree

51:58

Suddenly now you're competing with

52:01

this guy or in all

52:03

this that was not on.

52:06

Once we played together, they

52:09

realize, Man, this guy must

52:11

have really studied.

52:14

He had a great natural

52:17

ability that only

52:19

God give us. And

52:22

yet there were beautiful people. I

52:25

wish there was something else besides

52:28

that. There's hull of fame to under

52:31

these people from what they

52:33

are, from what they had to go through. They

52:36

were accepted in America.

52:39

It took a while before

52:42

everybody realized, wow, we

52:45

get that artistry. And

52:48

now you know who was there. Lou

52:52

Donaldson's on Oh

52:55

man, well

52:57

it's stunistain. You know, it's life.

53:00

I don't control life. I

53:03

just try to live it right.

53:05

Well, we don't control we just experienced it. But it

53:07

does feel you know. Yeah, I mean since we spoke,

53:09

we lost those people and and and and also including

53:12

Roy Haynes.

53:13

You know Roy Haynes,

53:16

the guy that I never thought would

53:20

not be here. Yeah, well

53:23

at least I thought tithing

53:26

out of Hanley, for he would.

53:29

It's all they played with different

53:32

order, first chairs honors

53:35

and uh he handswered

53:38

the wonderful person out and

53:40

and uh through the great honor.

53:44

No. Roy had

53:46

to play with them on many occasions,

53:49

the uh great much

53:52

of my music

53:54

that I played, I remember I

53:57

did some nation of things and Roy

54:00

was there right on it and

54:02

then help. I

54:04

want to thank Roy.

54:08

Yes in faith I've been

54:10

doing before, I

54:12

wouldn't do it now, man, thanks

54:15

joys to being being a

54:17

great guy. Life

54:20

is really I had to

54:22

go one dementia. We

54:24

don't know much about it.

54:27

Do you feel as time goes on you get more comfortable

54:29

with it not knowing?

54:31

Oh? Yes I do. I

54:34

do. Because I tried

54:36

to get more

54:39

like a spiritual understanding

54:41

of life. I

54:44

have learned a lot and

54:46

it's comforted

54:48

me through my uh

54:52

period of light. I'm

54:54

just sorry I couldn't hang

54:57

I was telling my friends. But by

55:00

being a musician, I've

55:02

reached a lot of people which

55:05

I couldn't reach other other

55:08

than the your music. Yeah,

55:11

and they hearing my music. So

55:14

I'm grateful, absolutely

55:17

grateful, And whatever

55:20

it is I'll say

55:22

soon I can

55:24

send there for whole good.

55:27

Whatever happened to me in

55:30

my life, with what has

55:32

happened to me and what's

55:35

going to happen to me, it's

55:37

all good. Boy,

55:40

have I have I been

55:43

but enormous by.

55:46

Well, thank you so much. I mean

55:48

again, I would, you know, love to give

55:50

you a ring another time and maybe were gonna have another conversation.

55:53

He's a really enlightening so thank you so

55:55

much.

55:56

Well, remember though I'm one of the

55:58

last guys standing, well,

56:01

I am the last guy say so.

56:04

It's a cop, you

56:06

know. Don't wait too long.

56:10

All right, Thank you so much, sir.

56:13

Okay man, God bless, I'll

56:15

talk to you later.

56:18

Thanks so much for Sunny Rollins, for getting on the phone with me

56:21

and reflecting back about some of his colleagues and

56:23

about his life and art. I'm

56:25

so grateful that we still have him here at

56:27

the age of ninety four. Be

56:29

sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken

56:31

Record Pod. You can follow us on

56:33

Twitter at broken Record. Broken

56:36

Record is produced and edited by Leah

56:38

Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler

56:40

and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

56:42

is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record

56:44

is a production of Pushkin Industries.

56:47

If you love this show and others from Pushkin,

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57:07

aff Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm

57:09

justin Richmond.