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... welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business

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leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons

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learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.

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Welcome to Builder Stories. Welcome back, everybody. Today, I am here with Ann Marie Diaz, who is the

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co-owner of TRS Build. They are located in Austin, Texas.

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You know, always excited to have a local Texan on the call.

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You know, I actually grew up in, uh, in, in Dallas, but I spent about eight years in, in Austin.

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And I was actually very close, uh... I think you're actually in Cedar Park.

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I was at, uh, 1431 and, uh, and that was at 620 out there. So we, uh... Very, very familiar with the area.

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You know, lo- love Austin though. It's a great place and great, great place to, uh, to have a business,

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especially in construction right now. That's true.

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So yeah. Yeah. Thank you, thank you for having me on. Yeah. Glad, glad to have you. So, so why don't you kinda give us, give us a little background?

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You know, how did you... How did you get into construction in the first place?

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What, what led you to start TRS? Sure. Um, so, uh, first of all, Eric, I would like to congratulate you.

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Best in Show at IBS. Yep.

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Very nice. Nicely done. I saw some of the posts, so congratulations on that.

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We went- Thank you ... for a few years. We didn't make it this year, but I did see your post.

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And really, congratulations, that's a big accomplishment.

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Thank you. Um, in terms of how I got started, I will say I've watched several or listened to several of

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your posts, um, repo-... several of your podcasts, and I have noticed that

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some of the other business owners like myself started working pretty early.

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Um, I've heard people talk about, you know, they really started working mowing lawns or they started

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working cleaning construction sites during the summer.

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Uh, my, my work life, uh, really started when I was 14 years old.

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I started working in my dad's machine shop.

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Uh, my dad did some specialty machining work, and he had a small business. He had a machine shop.

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And so I started working there. Um, believe it or not, he had a CNC lathe, and

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one of my jobs, one of my tasks, was to make the punch

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cards that went into this computerized lathe.

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Huh. And so that's seriously dating myself, but the lathe was also a little bit beyond its

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time. It's what my dad could afford. Anyways. And so my work life really started working in my dad's shop.

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Um, basically worked from there, doing all sorts of things. Um, waitressing.

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I did some waitressing when I was, I think, 17. A horrible waitress.

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I was an awful, horrible waitress. I could not remember the details, and just that

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was not the thing for me. Um, I went to university, University of Minnesota, uh,

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graduated with a degree in engineering, and went on to work for a consulting engineering

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firm, Barr Engineering company. I think they're still around, uh, up in Minnesota.

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And, uh, after a few years, kind of thought about, um, going back to school.

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I went back to school for environmental health

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and went into the Peace Corps, and I served for a couple years in Central Africa as a

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water and sanitation engineer. So my career started in engineering. I moved to Texas after coming home from Central Africa, did

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not wanna handle the Minnesota cold anymore.

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And then Texas, worked for some nonprofits.

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Um, worked for a couple nonprofits, worked for government and private sector in energy and

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utilities. Part of that was in green building, so, and also commercial efficiency, so that got me a little bit into the

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building industry. And then eventually, I got into more of a business role, strategic planning, organizational

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development, looking at culture, which I'm, I'm really interested in that.

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I'm very interested in the people side of business. I think business is a people business.

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We're in a people business. And so that, that part of the work really interests me.

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It was around that time Shaniko and I started talking about s- running a business of our

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own. Um, we knew some other people who had a business, and we're looking at what do we want for the trajectory

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for the rest of our life, and thought, "You know, we can do this." So our plan was that I would keep working

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corporate, he would get the business off the ground.

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We decided on remodeling, um, because we have a shared passion for home and family.

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And also, we... He had personally GC'd two projects that we had done in our own homes.

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And so he had some experience, he knew some contractors that he liked.

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And so we started TRS Build in 2015.

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Um, today, we're excited this summer we're gonna celebrate 10 years in business.

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And today, what we do primarily is turnkey design build.

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Um, everything from, you know, that initial meeting, just having basic

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conversations and scoping, all the way to doing the permit, doing all the

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plan sets. Um, we have an outside engineer that stamps and seals our sets.

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Doing the full construction and obviously the warranty as well. So that's where we're at today.

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That's awesome. You have, uh, quite the, quite the backstory, quite the journey there.

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I mean, starting off as a, you know, working in your dad's machine shop, to waitressing, to you

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going into engineering, and then into the, the Peace Corps and spending time in Africa.

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I mean, what, what a, what an incredible journey that-

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Yeah. You know, it seems like you, you, you were picking up a lot of little pieces along the way there that all kind

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of, you know, culminated in you, in you starting your own, uh, design build firm.

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Yeah. That's g-... That's great. Yeah, absolutely. And the interesting thing that was unexpected but a pleasant surprise, all

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those different things that I learned really applied. I mean, understanding how to read plan sets, reading engineering plans,

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doing budgeting, uh, working with people, even doing public speaking, and how do

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you work in an organization, how do you develop a healthy organization.

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All of that stuff has worked really well, even though our business obviously is much smaller.

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We have six employees. Um, so we're much smaller than the types of companies that I was working for in the

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past. Sure. So, and, and what are the other...

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So you and, and, and Shaniko, you-

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Mm-hmm ... you guys are the owners of the business, but what is-

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Correct ... what do the other employees do? Yeah. We have a client service director, Mary Tovar, who's amazing, who has led our

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JobTread implementation, um, that we can chat ab- about a little bit if you like, if we talk about

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tools and technologies. Jenny Machado is our project designer, also amazing, a

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whiz at technology. Um, we have a pr- a project manager as well.

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We have a field assistant who's part time, and we also have a finance assistant

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who's full time. ... nice.

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Mm-hmm. And so, you know, o- obviously, coming up on, on 10 years, I mean, that's, it's an incredible feat.

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Most, most businesses don't even make it, you know, [laughs] one or two years.

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So- Mm-hmm ... you know, to, to have built a, you know, a, a sustainable, you know, successful business for that

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long is obviously a testament to, you know, the hard work and, and, and, and you've, you've made all the

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right moves along the way. You know- I wouldn't say that. [laughs]

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Uh, well, you, you- But we try to learn from them when we don't make the right moves. But thank you.

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Yeah. Well, so what... I, I'm, I'm curious. Like, when did you, when did you start building out the team?

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Was that like- Mm-hmm ... right away or did that kind of happen...

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Like, did, did you and Shaniko run it for a few years on your own?

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Kinda like what did the, sort of the, the growth of the, the team look like-

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Yeah ... over those 10 years? Yeah. No, that's a really good question.

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And so as I mentioned, we, we launched the company in 2015.

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We subcontract out our work. Right now, we've got a network of, uh, at least 30 different

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subcontractors in vary- in various capacities.

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And, um, it was in 2019 when I transitioned to working full-time.

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Um, I would say at that time, you know, work...

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Shaniko running the business and me just kinda helping out in the background worked well for a while, but as

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you probably heard from other spousal business owners, you get to a point where he's working

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60 hours a week. I'm working a full-time job.

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I'm working nights and weekends as well for the company, and it's just not sustainable to do that for

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anybody. Yeah. Um, and so that's when we decided, in June of 2019, that I would start working for the company

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full-time. We brought on a couple people,

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was it maybe a, a year or two later?

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And, you know, we kinda grabbed the people around.

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Um, I would say we didn't think through really well defining their role and

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responsibility. We just kinda thought it would become obvious, and it wasn't.

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And, um- [laughs] ... they, they were wonderful people. It didn't necessarily work out really well.

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And I would say after they departed, it made us really kinda hesitant to

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bring other people on board again. But you get to a point when you're going where you absolutely need

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to. Yeah. And so we started building out the team.

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Um, Jenny has been with us for five years.

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Um, Mary's been with us for four years.

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Um, our, all of our people have been with us for more than two years.

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And so we're really, honestly really proud of that too.

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Um, our team is amazing. They're people that we, they are people that we had known for a long time, but we knew

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them, that they also were very strong professionals.

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And they've come on board, and they really, they care about the growth and the stability of the

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company. They care about our clients, and they share our culture-

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Mm-hmm ... which is really having culture of service, that we're here to serve each other and we're to serve the

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clients that, um, that, that come our way.

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Yeah. That's- And our trades as well. That's great. Uh, you know, not to...

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Ho- hopefully, it's not bringing up a sore subject or anything, but- No ... like, when you think back about those first, you know, and, and people that you brought on that didn't

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end up working out for you, you know, what... W- were they, were they project managers?

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Kinda what were those roles? And then, like, at the end of the day, like, what do you think, like...

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D- was it, was it just not a good hire? Were the, were the, you know, was it the wrong p- Did you get the

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person in the wrong role? Like, kind of, you know, what did- It seems like you kinda learned from that.

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And I'm just curious 'cause a lot of people struggle to, to, to make that leap, to hire those first

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people and build out that team. That, you know, the timing of it or-

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Mm-hmm ... you know, what, what should I hire them for? Like, so I'm, I'm, I'm just kinda curious.

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Like, what, you know, sort of what were your key takeaways from that?

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Yeah. I think they were the right roles.

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So it was a project manager and a designer, so they were the right roles.

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To some extent, they had, especially our designer, for sure, had the right background.

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Um, it was more, I think, we had it fully thought out and s- and set what are the

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expectations and how we expect them to do their job also.

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Um, 'cause you can do those jobs in different ways.

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And so as a result of that, just expectations didn't align, and we weren't ever able to

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quite get there. The right way to do that,

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in retrospect, is that you create that nice, clear job description.

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You're, you're interviewing people against that job description, and you're interviewing people.

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You're interviewing multiple people, not just kind of finding someone that looks like you know will be a

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good fit and then bringing them on board. And then through that process, you make sure that you've got someone who

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they understand what the expectations are gonna be with them and you and they agree that, yes,

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this is gonna be a good role. And you never know.

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I mean, things could still go awry, but that's a really good starting place, I think.

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Yeah. And that's how we manage things now. Yeah. I see, I see a lot of people who they're, they're just, they feel like they're drowning, and they just

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need anybody to come help. And it's like the very first person that comes along, you know, they, they bring

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'em on. They just want any warm body in the, in the seat. And it's like, man, that, that's...

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So often, that's not the right move, and, and-

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Mm-hmm ... and I realize, like, finding great people can take a really long time.

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Mm-hmm. And, you know, but, but like you said, like, you have to already know and have defined the, you know, the

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roles, the responsibilities, the expectations.

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And when you can set that out, you know, a- ahead of time and then interview against those,

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those descriptions and those expectations, like, that really helps you, you know, enter into this, you

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know, process and enter into, you know, this employment with them, you know, kind of having, you know,

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that, that everything laid out, and you're on the same page.

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And so I think it does make it, you know, a lot easier.

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But yeah, you gotta take, take your time to find the right people.

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I mean, every- everyone's probably heard, you know, hire slowly, fire quickly.

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You know, it's, it's, it really is true. Ho- how did you, you know, how did you know though that like...

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So, so was it just like kind of a couple things weren't working out? You guys like...

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I mean, you know, 'cause h- you know, letting people go, I think, is, you know, probably one of the hardest

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things of any, of any business leader.

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Ho- how did you kinda finally draw the straw, and, like, did you......

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you know, did, did, did you feel like you kinda kicked that can down the road longer than you should, or was it

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a pretty- Yeah. You know, you, you knew it and you made the move?

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Uh, with the, with our project manager, um, I think that the kicking the can down the road is a good

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example. And I'm going on recollection, I think he eventually left on his own.

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Okay. And so, and so that... You know, and, and it was necessary.

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And then also, um... And then for the, for the designer that we had, again, very

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talented, very skilled person. I'm trying to think, they, we may have brought her on on kind of an interim

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basis. And that is another thing that we do these days.

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And it may not work always, you have to be flexible.

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It may not work for the person who's taking the position, but starting it off as either we're

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gonna start at 20 hours a week, so we're gonna start at half-time, and then build up from there,

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if that's something that they can do. Or to start on kind of a probationary period.

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We're gonna consider these first few months to be a probationary period.

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And I think the nice thing about that is that that sets a clear deadline. At this point, we're gonna talk.

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We're gonna have basically kind of a mini review, talk about how things are going, and see,

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you know, how, if there's any tweaks that we need to be make, is this a good fit for both people, and,

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um, is there any tweaks that we need to be making to make anything work smoothly for them or for

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us? Yeah, that's great. You know, I feel like a lot of people, you know, they, they don't spend enough

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time getting to know them upfront

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before bringing them on full-time. And so it's, you know, yeah, I, I think it sounds like you're doing all

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the right things, you know, making sure that, you know, it's, it's gonna be a good fit because the wrong hire

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can be such a costly- Mm-hmm ... you know, and, and time-consuming move.

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Um, but it sounds like, you know, again, the, the, the people you've got there now have been there with you

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four or five, you know- Sure ... plus years. Like, so what, what would you say you've done to really help sort of foster the

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culture to keep people, you know, once you find those right people?

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Yeah. Um, I would say that, you know, our, our approach is,

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is really, and I use the term, is, is having a service culture that we wanna serve our

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employees. You know, I think that the,

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one of the greatest indicators of whether we're succeeding as a leader is, are our employees

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thriving? And so are they,

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are they, are they happy? But, you know, happy is fluctuating even with a very successful employee.

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But are they growing? You know, are they learning new things?

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Do they generally enjoy their work?

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Are they being challenged by their work, and do they respond well when

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there's, when those challenges happen? Um, do we have a culture that's where it's okay to fail?

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I think it's important to have a culture that's okay to fail.

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Something Shaniko says a lot, and I heard him say it again this morning, "The only person who doesn't fail is

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the person who never tries to do anything." [laughs] And so having a culture where, you know, if you fail, we're not gonna jump on you and give you a hard

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time. That doesn't mean we won't, on some occasions, hold people accountable, or sometimes, you know,

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maybe, you know, get a little bit more animated about something that happened.

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But, um, but generally speaking, when we have a culture where it's okay to fail, you can say, "Hey,

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you know what? I can tell that I think this is really what happened and it wasn't what we expected, and this is our situation right

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now. Um, let's talk about it and let's figure out,

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one, how do we move forward?" So keep focused on the positive and keep focused on moving

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forward. And then if needed, and it's not always needed, but if needed, then think about

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what are the processes that we need to put in place to make sure this doesn't happen again?

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And not every fail needs a new process, that can actually be detrimental as well.

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Process is, is another thing that I believe, uh, pretty firmly in.

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But, um, not every failure needs a new process, 'cause then you can just get bogged down with stuff that

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is gonna make you slower and less efficient.

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Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, uh, it's, it's all... That's very, very good, good advice.

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I'm, I'm a firm believer too, like, I would rather our people try something and fail than to

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not try at all. Mm-hmm. You know, now, I, I don't want them to keep making the same mistakes.

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Yeah. So I think it's important that they learn from those mistakes.

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Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, you, you know, I'd rather, you know, I think that's just how innovation, uh, uh, you know,

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happens is, is by trying new things and by looking for ways to, to improve.

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And not everything's gonna work, but you know what? If it does work, then awesome, let's, let's, let's keep going and keep doing that.

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If it doesn't, well, you know, we, we tried and it didn't work, and we can learn and, and pivot.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I, I'm curious when, when you think back about, you know, the early, you know,

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early years of the business, you know, what types of projects were you taking on and how did you get

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those first customers? What did, what did that look like?

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Yeah. Um, when we first started the business, we used the term walk and talk, walk and talk, walk and talk, walk and

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talk, walk and talk. And you have to get that first customer.

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Our first customer came because we were walking around our neighborhood and there was a house for

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sale. Let's go, they're having a open house. We watch and we talked to the real estate agent.

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She referred us to a client. Um, at the time, they were

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looking for just kind of more, more, like, cleaning and organizing in their house.

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But we're like, "We'll do it." And that's another thing, in the beginning is,

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um, a lot of saying yes.

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And so saying yes to things that you're capable of doing, of course, but sh- and we're like, "Yeah, yeah,

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we'll do that." Well, that turned into a whole home remodel.

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Because after getting in there, getting to know each other, and this was Shaniko, I actually helped with

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the cleaning and organizing on the weekend with our niece, which is a fun story for

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us, when she was spending the summer with us. And she went with us, and the three of us went together.

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We wish so much that we had that photo.

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Um, at the time, we called the company Staging Organizing Living and Design, and it was gonna be all

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about organizing, living design, and light, and light remodeling.

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Well, this person into it asked, "Well, can...

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I'd like some more lighting. Can you do that? Can you do this?

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Can you do this?" And again, it turned into a whole home remodel....

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professional photos, um, 'cause that, that's one of my regrets is that there were projects we did

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that we maybe thought was too small or something so we didn't get professional photos.

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And I wish so much that we had invested more in getting that so we could've added

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that to our library. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, professional photos, uh, uh, they, they, they can make all the difference in the

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world whether you're, you know, showcasing a project all the way to selling your home.

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Like, you know, a, a photo, you know, and the right lens, like, it just, you know, i- it can just, it

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really takes it to a whole nother level. So- Yeah.

18:26

Glad, glad to hear you say that. Mm-hmm. W- would you say, like, so, so obviously you landed a, a, you know, a, a

18:33

large renovation, which is awesome. Uh-huh. You know, at what point did you really figure out the whole design aspect of

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it and the importance of, of, of doing design, you know, to the, to the point that you brought

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someone on full time to do it? Yup, absolutely. It's a good question.

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And so in some ways we've been doing design since the beginning, but we've become much more sophisticated with it

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over the years. So in early design was if we're doing a kitchen,

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like, we would do a bathroom, a kitchen. We'd do a lot of smaller projects.

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It would be Shaniko bringing in tile samples to their home.

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That would be design, basically a material selections process, helping pick with, pick out some paint

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colors or something like that. And then over time, we started picking up some other tools.

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Eventually we picked up Chief Architect, and Jenny ran with that.

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She ran with that. And, um, and that's a tool that we still use today.

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We've been very, very happy with it. And so I did some design work for us.

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Even when I started working with the company, I was doing some, some lighter design using some simpler

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tools. And then but, um, when we got Jenny on board using

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Chief Architect is when we really, really can offer full design

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capabilities. And then we have our engineer who does the engineering plans, and then the two of them will

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work together to marry those. So, like, if we're doing a large addition or really any kind of

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addition, sometimes even some, like, uh, like remodeling a stairway inside the house,

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normally those two have to have, and they collaborate very well together.

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That's what say, thing I would say. You know, you find those collaborators outside your company.

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We have an architect that we work with, and that is something that we do as well.

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So we do full, uh, full service turnkey design build in-house, and that includes a permit as well.

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So I actually do our permitting. That's when people ask, they're like, "Why don't you hire an expediter?"

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My view on that is that expediters are great if you're an individual homeowner and you don't

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know anything about the permitting process. But for us, in-house, it's good to have. When you do permitting, you understand the city.

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And we work in multiple cities around here, and they're all very different in what they require.

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And if you're not on top of that, you could even start designing something with a client that they

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can't build, that can't be built because you don't understand some of the restrictions in that particular

20:48

area. So I think there's a lot. And then getting the contacts.

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Again, the people, getting the contacts within, within the city permitting offices that we can reach out

20:56

to sometimes if we've got a question, if we need some help pushing something along.

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Um, and so but having those outside resources.

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O- Our engineer fits very well with our culture.

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This architect that we work with works very well with our culture.

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And, um, and, and we're looking at doing more work with architects and designers at outside, but

21:14

collaborating with them. And we would be coming in as the builder where they're providing the

21:18

architecture and the design services. Yeah. That's great. What, uh, are there, are there particular ways that you're trying to, you know,

21:26

really keep kind of building that relationship with your company? Like, do you, do you do events?

21:30

Do you kind of, like, bring them in? Like, h- how do you, how do you really-

21:33

Huh ... foster that, that relationship with the engineers, architects?

21:36

Yeah. That's a good question. We have, uh, we have one engineer that we work with right now, and we're

21:41

pretty dedicated to that one person. That was, uh, for us, it's been tough to find an engineer that fits our really collaborative model.

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And he is third party. He is very strict, and he lets us know, "Hey, you need to fix this.

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You need to fix this," and that's what we need him to do. But he's collaborative in the way that he does it and the way that he communicates everything.

21:58

Um, we are doing more professional networking.

22:02

Again, I'm a people p- I'm a firm believer in professional networking.

22:05

Um, I've mentioned that we're, we're involved with NARI, the National Association Remodeling Industry.

22:10

In Texas, I think that's very important too, 'cause in Texas, you may know, there is no

22:16

licensing for GCs. And so looking for a company that is

22:20

a NARI member, know there's a code of ethics within NARI.

22:24

These are reputable builders that are getting together to, on their own to learn from each other, and

22:28

they're paying to be part of an organization and investing their time and resource.

22:31

So I'm a big believer in that. We also recently joined the local, um,

22:36

AIA, American Institute of Architects chapter as an allied member, 'cause we're

22:40

not an architect but we can join as an allied member and start to meet some more people and network that

22:45

way. Yeah. That's great. You know, I see a, a lot of times i- it's, it's interesting, right?

22:51

Like, uh, every, every local community is gonna have a handful of, you know, builders and, and,

22:55

and, you know, probably similar type businesses, you know.

22:58

And, and a lot of times, I, I, I see people kind of hesitant and resistant to kind of go and

23:03

network with who they, you know, think are the competition.

23:06

You know, it's like, "Well, I don't wanna help the competition." Like, you know, but at the same time, it's

23:10

like, man, there's, there, the, I th- I think people need to have this abundance mentality.

23:13

Yes. Like, there's enough work out there for all of us.

23:16

And if, if, if everyone can work together and, and can improve the, you know, the,

23:21

the, the trade as a whole and make sure that everyone's delivering, you know, exceptional work and that,

23:26

you know, we're pricing it correctly and that we're doing right by the customers.

23:29

'Cause like, you know, uh, l- as, as I love to say, a rising tide lifts all boats.

23:32

Yeah. Like, you know, w- we can all as a community work together to be able to, to, to

23:37

grow and improve the businesses. Mm-hmm.

23:40

And so, you know, I love the, the, the fact that you're so active in, in, in the NARI and the AIA.

23:44

I mean, like, these are great local communities where you can.

23:47

You can, you can learn a tremendous amount from other people and, and, and you can probably

23:52

find some great, great people to work with you too at the same

23:55

time.What, what would you say, like, has...

23:59

You know, when, when you think about it, again, kinda early on, ho- how was your, sort of your, your, your

24:03

typical project change? I mean, as... You know, I assume it d- it started off a little bit...

24:07

You know, your average price might have been- Uh-huh ... a little bit lower, but as, as, as you've grown, the projects, have they kind of grown in size and, and

24:13

scale? Absolutely. Yeah. And so doing... And even early on, we had some larger projects,

24:18

um, like a new home build, an accessory dwelling unit, but it was in a new home build.

24:23

Um, but over time we've gotten more projects, but we for sure are getting...

24:27

We're getting larger projects and we're doing fewer projects a year. So maybe...

24:31

When I first came on board with the company, I think we were doing between 30 and 40 projects a year.

24:36

Now we're doing about 15 projects a year. At any given time, we have about five projects running at a time in different, in different

24:43

stages for those projects. And that's not including things that are in the design queue.

24:47

That's actual five projects that are in some point in construction. Um, yeah, exact-...

24:52

So right now we're doing one ground up build, we are doing a whole home remodel,

24:57

we are doing two large additions, and a complete gut

25:02

remodel of the interior of a home. Um, what else do we have? We're finishing out...

25:07

This is fun and I love this, when we have clients that we worked for in the past that come back.

25:11

So these people, we did their kitchen for them back in, uh, 2020, I think it

25:16

was, and now they had us come back and we're doing t- They have a really interesting house.

25:21

So if y- you're familiar with Austin, the central area of Austin is, is our

25:25

hills. And they have a house on the hillside.

25:29

Their house is kind of like a spiral. It's actually got four different levels in it.

25:34

And so it's a very interesting house to work in. And, um, th- so but they brought us back to do the primary bath, which was very wonky 'cause they're

25:41

wrapped around this... It was very... And very interesting.

25:43

And they're like, "We hate this." And I hadn't been in it yet 'cause I'd only been in the kitchen.

25:47

I walked in, I'm like, "Wow. This is really interesting and different."

25:51

[laughs] Uh, did not meet code at all.

25:54

And so doing a gut remodel on the primary bath.

25:56

Also the powder room, when you enter the home, and so that would be one that guests would see when they come in

26:01

the home. And then also doing new flooring on the, on what would be considered the first floor, the

26:06

entry level of the home. So, uh, but I love that, when our clients that we worked with in the past are bringing

26:11

us back to do more business with them, and it's fun to get to, uh, be with them again and,

26:16

and, um, serve them again. Yeah. That's, that's awesome. I mean, you know, I think repeat business is, is absolutely the best-

26:22

Mm-hmm ... the best work. You know, probably the next best work is, you know, when, when, you know, a customer's

26:26

referred you out to someone else. Yeah. You know, h- uh, h- what, what percentage of your work i- is kind of repeat and, and how do you...

26:33

How do these other new customers come in and how do they find you?

26:36

Yeah. So we have, um... I would say like most folks, um, in this

26:40

industry, it's, it's a referral business.

26:43

And so probably 80% of our work is referral,

26:47

either a past client and looping in repeat in, in with that.

26:52

And, um, also professional referrals, so it might come from an architect or from an engineer.

26:57

And then we also through, through SEO, people find us on our website.

27:02

We've actually found some of our, some of our best projects are people, they did a lot of research.

27:06

They researched, they researched, they researched.

27:09

And, and we're, we're grateful that they found us.

27:12

And just looking at our website, they, they thought, "Okay. This could be a good fit," and it was.

27:17

It's a good fit personality-wise and it's a good fit project-wise as well.

27:22

So yeah, as far as if we're thinking about people starting up in the organization, you know, we mentioned

27:26

the marking photos before. Obviously having, um, a well done

27:31

website is very, very valuable. I will say SEO is...

27:36

I do not understand SEO. We did hire a company.

27:40

That's something that we did a few years ago, looking for someone who could help us with SEO.

27:44

We hired somebody, interviewed three com- Got proposals from three companies, interviewed two, decided

27:49

on one. And, um, I don't know. I don't know if it helped us at all.

27:55

And then later, our, our web, the website owner, you know, we have the...

28:00

I don't know what you call it, the... You know, the people basically who own the website and they manage it-

28:05

Yep ... um, they're like, "There's a lot of funky stuff on your backend here.

28:08

I don't know." And I was like, "Well, I didn't do it, but it was probably this company that we had hired a few

28:12

years ago." Yeah. So SEO is tricky. I find SEO to be really tricky.

28:16

Yeah. I mean, it- We do blogs. We keep our blog to keep updated information on our website.

28:20

And I enjoy that 'cause I enjoy writing. It's one of my hobbies.

28:23

And so I actually enjoy doing blogs, but it's something that you've gotta be consistent and

28:28

dedicated. Yeah. And I have someone who, um, we've hired contract basis and she

28:33

helps me by drafting something and making sure we get something drafted once a month, and then I just have to

28:38

clean it up and post it. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I... Your, your website looks great.

28:42

I mean, I see, you know, again, you got, you know, kind of about you all, the team.

28:46

You know, you've got reviews and testimonials, which is awesome.

28:48

But then, again, you're showcasing a lot of your work. You've got, you know, high-quality photos.

28:53

You know, I think that's, that's so important. I'm, I'm curious, when, when did you decide that you needed to invest in a website and

28:59

started investing in, in marketing? Like, ho- how early on was that?

29:03

Yeah. Um, we need- we knew we needed a website immediately.

29:07

I- if you have a business card, you need a website so people can go somewhere and see something about

29:12

you. Um, our first website was just very generic,

29:17

just so we could send people some place. Um, and then over time, investing obviously in adding more, trying to understand more what is

29:24

best practices for developing website, having a good company.

29:28

Um, originally, we had a company that worked directly with builders who developed our new

29:32

website. When I came on board, that was one of the big things I wanted to do was work on

29:37

giving a, a fresher face to our proposals, getting a new website.

29:42

Um, so that was investing. In terms of dollars, we haven't invested a lot. And we don't do Google ads.

29:49

I've heard, um, questionable things about whether or not that's a good investment for remodeling

29:53

companies. Sure. Um, we've really put our, our marketing dollars more into... We do have some things.

29:59

We have these fun-... look at that beautiful soup mug. I love it.

30:02

Everybody has a regular mug. We have a soup mug.

30:05

You can- [laughs] ... heat your lunch in it. You can have a big old coffee. Love it.

30:08

Nice. So, so we do some little things like that.

30:11

Um, for our 10-year anniversary, we might, we're still talking about what we're gonna do for that, but maybe

30:17

throwing a community party. Oh, cool. And just renting a place in a park and maybe having hamburgers and hot dogs, just giving

30:24

them away for free. And really, just as an opportunity to thank the community that, that,

30:29

that we're still going strong 10 years in and we were grateful to them for their support.

30:33

Yeah. Um, so that's, yeah, so marketing, I would say website, get those professional photos.

30:37

They're w- early on, it kind of feels like, "Oh, but it's cost this much,"

30:41

but in the end, um, it's, it's a good investment, especially if you find a photography service

30:46

that can do it at, at a pretty good price point. Yeah. You know, I think the, you know, o- obviously, I- I'm, I'm a big proponent of you gotta have a

30:53

website and it's gotta be, you know, a really great website. I mean, that's, that's your face.

30:57

That, that's often- Mm-hmm ... the, the first experience that a prospect is, is gonna have with your company.

31:03

And so, you know, making sure that you are, you know, putting that best foot forward.

31:06

If you only get one chance to make an impression, it's gotta be a great one.

31:09

Uh, and, and- True ... you know, it sounds like, again, y- you guys kind of figured that out.

31:12

And, you know, the SCO, like, I mean, it's just, it's all about continuing to publish content.

31:17

You know, Google rewards those who continually, you know, feed, feed the beast, if you will.

31:21

You just keep putting out new content, putting out information that...

31:24

You know, but it's gotta be high-quality content. It's gotta be relevant and, and, and, and beneficial and valuable content that people

31:31

actually want to come and, and spend the time to read and to consume.

31:35

You know, 'cause Google sees, like, if someone just, you know, searches for something and then they click

31:38

on, on that page and it has nothing to do with what they were looking for, they immediately, you know, leave.

31:43

And so that's, you know, it, they, they know where the high-quality content is and that, that it's

31:47

relevant, you know, and beneficial. And so, like, you know, having you involved is, is obviously, you know, huge

31:53

because you know the ins and the outs of the business.

31:55

You know what, you know, your customers are saying and what might be helpful and beneficial.

32:00

You know, I think, obviously, having someone draft up content, totally, totally great.

32:03

You know, being able to just sort of keep you making sure that you're getting it out there and getting it

32:07

going, you know, is obviously a lot easier to kind of take, uh, something that's already been drafted and

32:11

kind of work with that- Mm-hmm ... than to have to start from scratch.

32:13

But, um, you know, definitely encourage everybody, if, if you're not doing that, if you don't have a blog or

32:18

if you're not continually adding pages to your website, then, like, that, that is an easy win.

32:22

It's so important that you do it. Um, you know, you bring up the advertising thing, which, which, again,

32:27

it's, it's a, it's something that I think if, if you've got, you know, a very healthy lead flow,

32:31

if, you know, if you're looking to, to take on, you know, just, you know, I mean, it sounds like around 15

32:35

projects a year, you know, and you don't need the ads, well, cool.

32:38

I mean, you, you don't necessarily need to spend it. I mean, if you're getting what you need and it's mostly referrals-

32:42

Mm-hmm ... and it's working, awesome. You know, for, for those who are looking for maybe a little bit, you know,

32:46

higher volume type business, they need, you know, more projects, you know, per month, per year,

32:51

you know, that's where I do think, you know, the local advertising, being able to, to run those Google Ads,

32:56

you know, uh, Facebook Ads, things like that, those, those can definitely work and I've seen them work.

33:01

You know, but I think what's, what's important is that, you know, like, you gotta make sure that, like,

33:05

you're, you're, you're monitoring it and that you've got somebody who really knows what they're

33:09

doing. I have spent countless, like, thousands and thousands of dollars on, on

33:14

ads to, to have, like, absolutely nothing to show for it.

33:17

Yeah. And, and it's like, you know, if, if you don't have the right person, you know, managing those ads with the

33:22

right content and continually adapting and, and improving them over time, then, like, you know, it

33:27

can be a huge, you know, time suck and your customer acquisition cost can, can just balloon out of control.

33:32

Versus, you know, when you do kind of have that right partner, you know.

33:35

And, and I highly recommend if someone wants to go down the ad route, like, you know, find a, a, a

33:40

partner who has very, you know, specific experience with four construction companies

33:45

doing the local targeting and they can show you, you know, their, their results.

33:49

You know, it's, it's what is that, you know, ROI?

33:52

What is that customer acquisition cost that you can expect? You know, where are you gonna show up?

33:56

How are you gonna target these ads? Things like that. So, you know, I think it's, you know, it sounds like though, you guys, you know, may not, may not necessarily

34:01

need that. You got a very healthy, you know, business.

34:04

You're, you're, you're running the, running the, the company with, you know, the, the,

34:07

the, the number of projects that you want. They've grown in size.

34:10

And, and yeah, you know, so it's, it's kind of all about what's right for your business.

34:14

Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't recommend people just dive into the ads if-

34:16

Yeah ... if there's not a real need, you know? Yep, absolutely. And we're always looking to grow.

34:21

So, you know, absolu- and we have talked about some different paths.

34:24

Um, even, you know, there's a local magazine that, that's contacted us about doing

34:28

advertisement in it. And to me, it's attractive because again, I like to write, I like to do these things.

34:34

But I know for me, and this is a mistake, we shouldn't do this, but I know for me, I get this in

34:39

the mail, "Oh, look at that, that's nice," and it goes in the recycling.

34:42

Yep. And so, like, that's one thing I would say we've never done, like, the postcards by the mail, none of that.

34:47

One of the things I think that I'm finding, especially as you get into these larger projects,

34:52

there's not a whole lot... It takes a certain amount of courage to put a second story on your house-

34:56

[laughs] Yeah ... and you gotta move your family out for six, seven, eight months, you know, depending on

35:02

the scope of the project. It's a lot.

35:05

Yeah. Not a lot of people are really, are really... These are people who they love their community.

35:09

Usually, that's what, they love their community. Their kids are in the local school district.

35:13

They've got a lot of sense of place for where they are, but they also have needs.

35:17

Yeah. And so, but I find that it's, there's not a lot of people who are really willing to, to

35:23

make the commitment they need to do as a homeowner to do that.

35:26

Um, of course, our job is to help partner with them, help them set expectations, understand what they need

35:30

to do to make everything go as smoothly as possible.

35:34

Um, so it's, we, we have been putting a lot of thought into, you know, how do we target

35:38

to find those kind of folks-

35:41

Mm-hmm ... and, and really help them to understand our service model,

35:46

that we're here, we're here to help them take an undertaking that may seem

35:51

just very obscure to them and make it clear

35:56

and help them to understand that it is our job to hold their hand through the

36:00

process and deliver- Sure ... something beautiful in the end. And so, but find, finding that market, that's... I welcome your ideas.

36:07

I love it, Eric, 'cause you have, you have a, you talk with so many people....

36:11

and you've got a great business mind yourself so I love hearing your ideas, and I would love to

36:16

pick your brain some more sometime on- Yeah, any, anytime

36:18

... some of those marketing efforts. It, it, it sounds like you know what your target customer, your, your ideal

36:25

customer is- Mm-hmm ... but do you... Are, are there kind of, like, red flags that you look for when you first meet people, or,

36:30

like- Yeah ... certain types of customers that you know you just might not be the best fit for or

36:36

don't wanna kinda go down that road with? Like, uh- No

36:38

... any- anything like that? Red flags. For me, I think the biggest one

36:44

is when you meet with someone and they say, "I've worked with

36:47

two, three builders or contractors over the past

36:52

and they, they were horrible, I couldn't trust them, all these things happened." And, you know,

36:57

it is like a relationship. When you, especially for a large, not for some of the smaller ones, but for a large

37:02

project, it is truly like a relationship. If you were to meet someone

37:07

and let's say they had been married three times

37:10

and they look back and they say, "All of my marriages dissolved because of

37:15

my spouse. It was all their fault-"

37:17

[laughs] ... you know, you probably wouldn't wanna get in a relationship with them.

37:21

Yep. So for that, that's probably, I would say that's the biggest red flag is if someone says that

37:26

they have had multiple experiences and none of them have gone well.

37:29

'Cause there is this, um,

37:32

there is still, to some extent, an image out there about the big bad builder.

37:36

Yep. And the builders are the bad guys. Um, now I network with people, intentionally, who are very reputable builders.

37:42

They are, they are not bad guys, they are not bad guys.

37:45

But there can come a time where a customer perceives them as a bad guy because of their past experience,

37:49

whatever it is, and makes things very challenging for everybody.

37:52

Sure. So if you're working with someone that, whatever their history, their personal history, for some reason,

37:56

they couldn't make it work with three other contractors, it's probably not gonna work with me either.

38:01

Early on, I did not have that 'cause early on, I was like, "Well, we could be the hero.

38:06

Wow, this person, all these bad experiences, we're, we're service-minded."

38:10

[laughs] . "We, we're gonna do a good job." And

38:14

it doesn't necessarily work out that way. Yup. Yup.

38:18

So I'm curious to kind of talk a little bit about from, from, like, an operational standpoint, you know,

38:23

so it sounds like you, you know, you said you've got about, you know, 30 or so different subcontractors

38:28

that you're using right now, you're running about five concurrent projects at a time.

38:33

You know, how, how do you, how do you manage all of that?

38:35

How do you make sure that, you know, you're, you're, you're scheduling it all out, you're getting all of the

38:40

right, you know, kind of people and, and things happening all sort of in conjunction-

38:44

Yeah ... with each other? Um, let's see. So, um,

38:49

that gets into a bit of a topic with us around roles and responsibilities. So we only have one PM.

38:54

Shaniko stepped in. He stepped in and he's PMing one of our job and he is an

38:59

amazing PM. Shaniko's an amazing...

39:01

And he also serves, essentially, as our operations manager.

39:05

Mary Trevar, our client service director, also oversees

39:09

communications and really kinda, she's...

39:11

I call her, she is like our angel hovering over everything.

39:14

Good. Good. And kinda just keeping an eye on- and I try to do this as well but I also have other things that I need to be

39:19

taking care of. And, um, and s- but she's kinda keeping an eye on everything.

39:24

I also just try to keep an eye on general communications too. I ra- I read that first line.

39:28

I say I'm a first-line reader. Anytime I see a message with a client, I read that first line.

39:33

And usually, in there, you can gauge a little bit about what's going on.

39:36

And so I will, I will track that as well and then start checking in with folks if I start seeing there might be

39:41

an issue. Um, so as far as just keeping things running,

39:45

um, you know, we h- we have a weekly meeting that everybody's on,

39:49

um, and so that's a, that's a checkpoint for us all to make sure we're all on the same page.

39:53

JobTred has been... You know, we implemented JobTred last

39:59

fall was when we began, and we had our own... You know, Shaniko and I are both Excel geeks.

40:06

He is a master at Excel and so we had been essentially running the company with...

40:10

He had his own d-... Uh, he has an MBA and a master- and a degree in finance

40:15

and so he really understands finance and how to do reporting, so he was tracking that next cell.

40:19

Um, we had a p- a tool we called ETIM that even in Chile somebody went, "We could sell this

40:24

someday." Um, and it did our proposals, contracts,

40:30

manage payments to contractors, track the financials for the project.

40:33

It did a lot of thing in an pr- a pretty elaborate Excel workbook that we then put into Google Sheets

40:38

where everybody could see it and have some visibility. So that helped a lot.

40:42

Um, when I started hearing about JobTred, uh, I can sh- if it's okay for me to

40:47

share kinda some of our- Yeah ... experience around that. Um, the first time I heard about it, and I'd heard about

40:52

BuilderTrend, kinda some, not, not nothing glowing enough to make us wanna, wanna move over.

40:58

And then I heard about JobTred and I actually sent a link to our team. I said, "Hey, everybody.

41:02

Take a look at this." I think only one person actually looked at it and it was Jenny, our designer.

41:07

And she's like, "Ah, I love this. It's amazing." Nobody else said anything so I just kinda let it

41:12

go. And then I'm having lunch with a colleague who I have a lot of respect for and

41:17

she's talking about how they started implementing JobTred.

41:20

And then Shaniko and I are having lunch with a builder who's been around for four years

41:26

and he starts talking about they've been using JobTred.

41:28

And so then I send

41:31

a note to Mary saying, "Let's get a demo."

41:34

And we got a demo. I think it was Jenny, Mary, and I.

41:37

Shaniko, I'm sure, was on that demo as well.

41:41

And right after that meeting, we're like, "Okay, when are we gonna implement?

41:44

We're gonna implement this." [laughs] . Um, and I'm a person, typically I believe in that you take three, you investigate three, but we saw

41:50

enough and I knew enough about other technologies that I was like, "This is something

41:55

we need." And Mary took the lead and started rolling out with it.

41:59

Keeping, getting back to your, your point about keeping everything together and keeping everything

42:04

organized, that h- the way we do communications now in JobTred, and we are,

42:11

we had some clients that were, that were transitional.

42:13

But now, especially all new projects, everything, every communication is going through

42:18

JobTred.... I will still have texts on the side with clients because I like that personal

42:22

relationship- Yeah ... but anything related to the project is going through a portal, is went.

42:27

And we can see everything and Mary as the admin, and I beli- I have admin rights so I

42:32

can see every single... There is no more-

42:35

[laughs] ... the project manager had a text, but then this email went out from

42:40

someone else and the project manager doesn't know that the designer sent an email.

42:44

And so keeping everything on the same page has been

42:48

just fantastic. It's been really fantastic. And even all the documents, you know, we've got...

42:53

We're using it for our documents. And I give the kudos to this goes to Mary,

42:58

and then it also goes to Jenny. Because- and I would give this as advice to anyone

43:03

who's thinking about using JobTread or any tool really, have somebody in the

43:07

organization who has a vested interest in this being successful and give them the

43:12

authority to release them to, "You take care of this for us.

43:18

And you come to me, you hold me accountable when I'm not doing the stuff you need me to do-

43:22

[laughs] ... just like everybody else." Yeah. And that was, I think, very successful for us concerning...

43:26

We, we purchased the tool, I think, in November.

43:30

And by January, we were already doing

43:34

proposals, doing internal communications.

43:38

Um, we had, I think, almost all of our vendors in, in the portal.

43:42

And at this point, we are doing change orders. Jenny's doing material selections.

43:47

I mean, we are doing the vast majority, pretty much everything for the project and holding our

43:52

files within JobTread. And so it's been keeping everyone on the same page, sharing

43:57

information with clients, sharing information with our social media person.

44:01

It's just been, it's, it's been a game changer for us.

44:04

And- That's awesome ... for all of us, it's just we know, we can see, we have visibility.

44:08

Yeah. And so that's really helpful. Yeah. That's, that's great. A- and I love your approach and, and your advice.

44:14

And I mean, somebody, you know, needs to own this.

44:16

Somebody needs to, you know, be the, the, the expert, the, the, the in-house, like, who

44:21

are we gonna go to? You know, we kind of, sort of call that, like, the train-the-trainer model, right?

44:25

Mm-hmm. Like, you gotta have a, a person on your team who's, who's gonna be that point person

44:31

who, you know, when anyone else has questions, they go to them and they either know the answer or they know

44:36

how to get the answer. Whether it's, you know, o- on the help desk, whether it's reaching out-

44:39

Mm-hmm ... to the customer success team or, you know, our trainers or whatever it may be.

44:43

You know, having that person who, who really is gonna be the admin is, is so valuable.

44:48

And, you know, I, I do, I, I, sometimes I see, you know, business owners, they, they love it, they wanna do

44:53

it, but, you know, they're so busy and so overwhelmed that they don't end up kind of taking, you know, the

44:58

time and devoting the time to getting it implemented.

45:01

And the companies that, you know, that, that are able to, to, to spend that time, whether it's, you know, the

45:06

owner or someone else on the team who can, you know, really devote the time to getting it set up

45:11

and then showing everybody else how to do it.

45:13

You know, because, you know, every business has their own unique processes.

45:16

Mm-hmm. They have their own kinda ways that they wanna do it.

45:18

You know, you got your own, you know, templates and, and, and, and formats and things like that.

45:22

And it's like, somebody's gotta go through and kind of help get that implemented and get that loaded up.

45:26

And, you know, sounds like, you know, your, your team, you know, Mary really took the, took the bull by the

45:30

horns and was a, was a, was a phenomenal, you know, asset to get i- get it going for you all.

45:34

Yeah. And I have to give credit, a lot of credit to Jenny too, because she's also been right there,

45:39

um, alongside, um, working on this. And again, the two of them are just...

45:44

We, we are very fortunate, very blessed to have both of them.

45:46

Our company would not be what it is today without those two ladies.

45:49

And so- Awesome ... we're just really grateful for them. Well, sh- sh- shout out to both, uh, you know-

45:54

[laughs] ... bo- both of 'em for, uh, doing, doing, doing a great job.

45:57

You know, again, it, it, it can be, it can be tough, you know, when, when, when not everybody's on board.

46:02

And it's like, you got some people who, you know, really understand the, the why and, and, and they

46:07

wanna make it happen, but then sometimes the, you know, some other people in the company aren't as, you

46:11

know, excited about it, or maybe the subs are pushing back or whatever it is.

46:14

And, like, you know, really, I think all of that comes down to, you know, how, how, how well do you,

46:19

you know, put that intentional focus on, you know, getting it implemented and then creating that,

46:24

you know, that, that, that training, the, the, the SOPs, the, you know, kind of the documentation to help

46:29

everyone understand, you know, not just, like, how to do it, but why we're doing this.

46:33

Mm-hmm. Yep. How is this gonna help us better manage our projects?

46:36

How is this gonna help us, you know, to win more jobs or to keep these jobs on, on schedule, on

46:40

budget? Like, you know, how is it gonna deliver a better customer experience?

46:43

Like- Absolutely. ... when people see that why and they get it, like, that's, that's when people really, you know, will come to

46:48

the table and, you know, kind of have a little bit more open mind if, if they didn't before.

46:52

Mm-hmm. So I, I'm curious, you know, when, when you think back about, you know, again, the last, uh, you know,

46:59

10 years since, since you started this business, like, is there anything that, you know, that, that you

47:04

know now that you wish you would have known, you know, earlier on that you think might have sorta

47:09

helped, you know, maybe over- overcome a couple of those roadblocks or, you know, those, uh, th-

47:14

those hard lessons that you had to learn? Yeah. You know, um, just like I think a lot about the people that we

47:21

work with, um, think of our clients, how do they feel.

47:24

Uh, we use a lot that quote, the Maya Angelou quote, I'm sure you've heard, "People will forget what

47:29

you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget the way you made them feel."

47:33

We use that a lot internally. Now, what we do is major transformations to their homes, so they'll probably

47:38

not actually forget what we did 'cause it's kinda right in their face all the time.

47:42

But when we say about, um,

47:46

the way we made them feel, um,

47:49

homeowners, there is something, you may have heard the term, the homeowner emotional roller coaster.

47:54

One of my favorite blogs on our website, and we send a link to this to...

48:00

We send it to our clients

48:03

when we're at commenced construction as a reminder, but we're talking about it through the process as

48:07

well. The fact that there's a very real cycle that most homeowners go through.

48:11

And everybody, of course, reacts a little bit differently. Some people are excited with demo.

48:15

Some people are very anxious about it 'cause they're seeing their home.

48:18

They're like, "Oh my gosh, this is really happening. My home is being taken apart."

48:21

Yeah. So people have different responses to that. So when we say about, "People will forget what you said, they'll forget what you did,"...

48:28

they'll never forget the way made them feel. You know, our hope is that years down the road

48:32

when they look at their home, they will feel, one, "I made a good

48:37

decision when I did this, and I made another good decision when I hired Terrace Build." And I hope

48:42

that they'll remember that we took care of them and we took care of the home, and we treated both them and

48:46

their home with respect throughout the whole process. All through- there's gonna be ups and downs.

48:51

It's just natural. I'll tell you, one of our home remodels that we did, I remember Shaniko calling me,

48:55

"Baby, the baseboards are done. They look amazing.

48:58

I'm so excited the baseboards are done." I came home, I saw the baseboards, and I was not

49:03

excited. I'm like, "What do you mean? These always look good." And, well, they hadn't been finished out, but I didn't know that.

49:09

And so, you know, these c- these things can happen as you go.

49:12

You see surprises, things that you don't expect. And so, you know, advice that I would give to other contractors is that,

49:19

um, you know, we talk about the service of, service culture, have an attitude of service to people.

49:24

When people know that you have good intentions for them, and that's a big part of having an attitude of

49:29

service, they know that you have good intentions for them,

49:32

um, in the long run, I think they'll- they'll remember that and they'll remember how you made them

49:37

feel. Um, personally also, in terms of how we feel and how we react,

49:42

um, I've had to do, you know, my own internal work.

49:46

One was letting go of things I can't control.

49:49

You know, there's so many things that we can't control, and it's hard for me to even recognize that because

49:54

as a person, I know, I believe and I know that we each have an influence and

49:59

effect on the people around us and the environment around us every day, but there are a lot of things that we

50:04

just do not have complete control over. So when something comes up and I don't have control, I've learned to literally just

50:12

take that deep breath and say, "I do not have control over this.

50:16

Who do I need to call who's gonna help us figure out what we're gonna do next?"

50:20

And then communicate to the clients or whoever we need to communicate, "Hey, this is going on.

50:24

This is what we're handling. This is what we're doing." And so that's been letting go of control.

50:28

Um, to release my perfectionism, 'cause I can be a bit of a perfectionist.

50:33

I think part of being a perfectionist also is that you can impose it on others,

50:38

that's even worse, and you can be really critical.

50:41

And so something that I've had to work on, and I'll tell you, so Shaniko and I,

50:46

working together as a married couple,

50:49

um- Who's- He is, he is a profo- on the Enneagram, if you've heard of the Enneagram, he is a one, which is perfectionist.

50:56

We have a bunch of ones in our company. And I'm an eight, and an eight is a challenger.

51:00

The last thing a perfectionist wants is to be challenged,

51:04

and so I've had to really learn how to do that, both for the g- the sakes of

51:09

our relationship as well as our relationship as business owners, how to handle that

51:14

challenge with r- with grace and respect when I need to challenge him about something.

51:19

And so that for me has a big, I think, lesson learned.

51:23

Also for us as co-owners of the business, I belie- you know, w- when

51:28

things- things got a little rocky, as I mentioned, you know, I started with the company in 2019,

51:33

June of 2019. Well, you know what happened in December. COVID hit.

51:38

And I'll tell you, those first, those... When we had gone through those first six months, we were not always treating each other

51:44

the same way you would treat a coworker or co-leader in a corporate setting.

51:50

And so, um, we, when COVID hit and we

51:55

had no oth- when e- when it finally hit for sure, I think, I wanna say it was like March 15

52:00

of 2020 when the City of Austin said, "We're shutting down."

52:03

And our sales pipeline drained

52:06

in that one day. And we had a couple projects going on, but we had to really be like, "Okay, we gotta figure this out

52:13

because this company right now, we have no corporate safety net.

52:17

It's our company and this is all that we have to take care of ourselves and our family.

52:21

And so we gotta figure this out." And, and we did, and we made our way through that.

52:26

Um, and in the end, I think right now we have a lot, we are much more supportive with, and we

52:30

understand that he ha- you know, he's over operation. We all get involved in operations, but he...

52:36

It's very easy to pick on operations.

52:39

Yeah. It's very tangible, it's very clear. Um, and so I think we've grown.

52:43

And I have, you know, things that I deal with too, 'cause ultimately the client relationship is on me.

52:47

And so as a natural tension that's come up is that he tends to be more contractor-centric

52:53

in seeing their side. I tend to be more client-centric in seeing their

52:57

side. And so I've had to learn how to balance that having

53:03

the care and compassion for our clients, I need to have that for our team and our subs sometimes too,

53:08

'cause we talk about don't make assumptions, but I will tell you...

53:11

And one of the other, um, things I would say is admit when you're wrong.

53:16

And I think especially when you're starting out, you can be really afraid to say, "You know what? I'm wrong.

53:20

Our- our team made this mistake and this is how we're gonna move ahead with it." Um,

53:25

but that can really open up a, it can grease the pathway for having

53:30

success and moving forward when we can just say, "You know what?

53:34

I'm wrong." And I had to do it last week because I got upset and I did not have the same car- com- curiosity and compassion for our

53:41

team and I thought something went wrong, and it turns out they did it well and I had to

53:47

swallow it. And I apologized to Shaniko and I apologized to our team

53:52

and I said, "You guys, I just want to say-" Mm-hmm. "... that I'm sorry because I jumped to a conclusion and it turns out that

53:58

our guys followed all the right steps and they did everything right."

54:01

Um, so yeah. I would say, you know, work on your perfectionism.

54:05

Know there are a lot of stuff that we can't control in this business, but we can control ourselves.

54:10

We can control our feelings and we can control how we show up.

54:13

You may have heard the analogy between you're having an argument with your spouse, your child,

54:18

your sister, whoever, and you are just in the heat of it, maybe. Let's just say that happens. I don't know.

54:25

And the neighbor shows up at the door. You open that door.Hey, Charlie. How's it going?

54:31

Yeah. So people say we can't control our feelings, but we can control our feelings.

54:35

Yeah. But we have to learn how to do that. Um, so can't control the things around us, but we can c- control

54:40

ourselves. And so, I think that's important for people to understand as they're starting

54:45

this business 'cause the emotions will run high. Take a look at our blog post on The Emotional Rollercoaster, um, if you wanna take a look.

54:52

And we made a little video. It's very short.

54:54

It's about two minutes long, but it does talk about the fact that, you know, emotions happen

54:59

and it's a natural part of the process, but we can control our own.

55:03

Man, that's, uh, that's awesome. Annemarie, I, I, I, I love everything you just

55:08

said. I mean, that, that is so true. Like, you know, i- i- this- this- this is- it's a journey

55:14

that, that, that you're gonna be on both with, with your employees, with your customers.

55:18

Every project is its own unique journey.

55:21

Mm-hmm. Yep. You know, and, and, and you're so right.

55:23

It, it's, you know, i- i- th- the project could go, you know, any number

55:28

of, you know, directions. And, and with construction we, we know there will be issues.

55:32

Yep. Things will come up. And, you know, it's, it's all about how you handle those issues and how

55:37

you, you know, proactively address it, the transparency you provide, like being open and honest

55:42

with the, you know, with the customer. You know, just do right by them.

55:45

At the end of the day, like, they're not gonna remember much of any of that.

55:49

Yep. But they're gonna remember how you made them feel-

55:51

Absolutely ... and the experience that they had.

55:54

That will single-handedly be the thing that will make them either refer you out to others-

55:58

Mm-hmm ... or wanna hire you again or not.

56:00

Yeah. You know? It's, it's so important and, and I think y- you said it, you know, just right.

56:04

I- I'll, I'll definitely have to go check out that blog post, The Homeowner Emotional-

56:07

Great ... Rollercoaster. I mean, that, that's awesome. I'm so glad that, like, you've actually documented that and, and have it in a way and you use that in your,

56:13

in your process. Mm-hmm. You know, such a cool thing that, that, that you're doing there.

56:18

You know, and, and, and, and, and you're absolutely right. I mean, like, at the end of the day, like we're, we're all humans. We all have emotion.

56:24

And the people who, you know, the, the, the best leaders are the ones who can control, you know,

56:29

the, the, their emotions and they can control, you know, how they react.

56:33

And, and, and again, like, don't make assumptions. Like, be curious.

56:36

Yep. You know, be compassionate. Like, try to know and give people benefit of the doubt, you know, like to, to

56:41

hear them. You know, because so many times, you know, we, we all, you know, can, can kind of just make

56:45

assumptions and then, you know, jump to conclusions or get really defensive.

56:48

Mm-hmm. And like, it just, like, that's not healthy communication.

56:51

It's true. You know, it's so important to be able to have good, healthy communication where, you know, yo- yo- you

56:56

know, you, you wanna make your, your company and, and, and, and your jobs a place that, you

57:01

know, that, that people want to come and they want to be involved.

57:03

I mean, that's how you, that's how you attract and, and keep your best workers.

57:08

That's how you attract and keep your best clients.

57:10

Like, you know, you, you gotta have that, that, that, that human, you know, relationship

57:15

that, that comes from a healthy, open, honest communication where, you know, people

57:20

aren't scared, you know, to come to you with a problem. Like, "Let's, guys, we're gonna work through it.

57:24

It's okay. Like, let's, let's figure out what we need to do." And like, you know, I think that it just, it, it

57:29

just comes across so loud and clear that, you know, the way that you and, and Shaniko are running this

57:33

business is it's, it's, it's a great culture.

57:36

Mm-hmm. It's, it's a place where you truly value and respect, you know, the people that, that, that interact with

57:41

your business. Everyone from your customers to your subs to, you know, to, to, the third party, you know,

57:45

engineers, architects. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, and, and that's what it takes to build a successful business that, you know, is, is,

57:52

is, is, is gonna sustain the test of time.

57:54

I mean, in the last decade, I mean, y- you know, you, you've seen a lot of ups and downs.

57:58

You know, we, we know that times will be hard, times will be great.

58:01

Like- Mm-hmm ... but at the end of the day, it's, it's the businesses that, that have those solid, you know,

58:07

teams and cultures and core values, those are the ones that, that make it

58:11

through no matter what happens. They, they thrive in the hardest times.

58:15

And, and you have clearly built a very, very strong foundation here for your company.

58:19

And I just, I, I, I appreciate you coming on today and sharing that with everyone out there because I,

58:24

I think it's, you know, there's so many great lessons that people can learn from your successes and the

58:28

things that... you know, a- a- and your challenges. I mean, even talking about, you know, those, those hires that you made early on that weren't, you know,

58:34

didn't, didn't work out, like, there's so much that, that people can learn and take away from this.

58:38

So, so Annemarie, I just, I, I wanna thank you for, for everything that you've done, for being such a great

58:42

role model, and for taking- Mm-hmm ... the time here to, to share your journey. It, it really means a lot to me and to the entire community.

58:49

Well, thank you very much, Eric. I appreciate having the opportunity to talk with you.

58:53

Um, again, I, we respect you a lot as a business leader and what you've done with your

58:57

business is absolutely amazing. Um, we wish you very much success.

59:01

And I know you are very much a part of our success as a company, so we really appreciate you.

59:06

Oh. Th- thanks so much. And Ross. Ross is our client manage- What is it? The client manager, success manager.

59:11

Yep. Mary says she's like his second son. [laughs] .

59:14

He adores him. Awesome. Well, I will, uh, I will be sure to share this with Ross, uh, but you know, again, we're, we're

59:19

excited to see all your success and I can't wait to see what the future holds for you all.

59:23

I have no doubt it'll be great. [laughs] Uh, you know, and also look forward to, uh, to seeing you at the NIEER conference, uh, next week.

59:29

And, uh, yeah, until then, hope you have a great weekend and just again, thank you again for coming on.

59:34

You bet. You take care. Alrighty. Bye-bye.

59:37

Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories.

59:40

We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your

59:45

journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review.

59:50

And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact

59:55

us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you.

59:59

I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story.