0:00

Hi, is this an okay time? It's your

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girl Dylan Mulvaney and I am inviting

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you to my weekly cocktail party and

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my brand new podcast, The Dylan Hour,

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brought to you by Lemonada Media. Life

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is stressful and there is so much

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darkness in the world, I think we

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Guess what? We are back

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Media. Each week, I'll chat

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with a... I am pumped

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all two relatable stories they've

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career-shaping, history-changing, life-defining, decisions. As

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someone who has made my

1:01

own fair share of questionable

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choices. Hello, bangs. I am

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pumped to share these funny,

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poignant, all two relatable stories

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with you. Season two of

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choice words is out now.

1:13

tune in wherever you get

1:15

your podcast. You won't want

1:18

to miss it. This is

1:20

Everything Happens, and I'm Kate

1:22

Bowler. Okay, today we're having

1:24

a conversation about greatness and

1:26

grit with someone who knows

1:28

a thing or two about

1:30

winning. Our guest, the legendary

1:32

coach Mike Shishevski, or Coach

1:35

Kay. led the Duke men's basketball

1:37

team to over a thousand

1:39

victories and five national championships

1:41

and led the US team

1:43

to three Olympic gold medals.

1:45

No big deal. This conversation was

1:48

part of a live event at Duke

1:50

University or one that you can watch

1:52

on YouTube too. We'll link it in

1:54

the show notes. You can even watch

1:56

his urge to walk around stage and

1:58

coach the whole room. And hey, if

2:01

you're not a basketball person or

2:03

maybe not a Duke basketball person,

2:05

first, I forgive you. Second, stay

2:08

with me. This conversation isn't just

2:10

about stats and trophies or being

2:13

a camera crazy. It's about the

2:15

deeper stuff like trust, resilience, and

2:17

what it means to see greatness

2:20

and others when they can't quite

2:22

see it in themselves. Because Coach

2:24

Gay doesn't just build teams, he

2:27

is obsessed with building character. So.

2:29

pull up a cord side seat,

2:32

and by that I mean a

2:34

cozy spot in your living room

2:36

or in your car or just

2:39

keep on walking if you're walking.

2:41

This is a conversation about the

2:43

winds that shape us and the

2:46

losses that change us. And without

2:48

further ado, the legendary Coach Kay.

2:51

I had heard that you like

2:53

to start your games. sometimes by

2:55

writing a word on the whiteboard

2:58

to focus a conversation. And I

3:00

thought maybe we might want to

3:03

start similarly. You're going to write

3:05

a word that will be maybe

3:07

a theme word for our conversation.

3:10

I don't want to judge yours.

3:12

Let's just give it a whirl.

3:14

How about something I feel? If

3:17

you want to give me an

3:19

emotion. I would be... Here's what

3:22

I... Okay, just give me one

3:24

second because I feel like you're

3:26

already more talented. Hey, do you

3:29

want to go first or second?

3:31

Yeah, my word's hopeful. Oh, I'm

3:34

hoping that you're going to fulfill

3:36

your duties here. Because

3:39

right now I'm a little

3:41

nervous about... I'm nervous about...

3:43

For them. And you. Fair.

3:45

So then this feels equally

3:48

possible. I wrote best friends.

3:50

It's possible. Well, I like

3:52

hopeful. I won't ever make

3:54

you do something. This is

3:56

where the crybox comes. I'll

3:59

just put that there in

4:01

case you decide to feel

4:03

more emotions. I don't want

4:05

to rush you. You have

4:07

this unbelievable ability to see

4:10

greatness in other people and

4:12

I am. I imagine that's

4:14

a little rare of a

4:16

quality, given that most of

4:18

us don't feel like we

4:20

have much inside of us

4:23

to share, other than indigestion.

4:25

I had one player in

4:27

particular, Shane Baddie, who wasn't

4:29

sure that he had greatness

4:31

inside of him, but you

4:34

were sort of hoping he'd

4:36

figure out pretty quickly. Yeah,

4:38

well, Shane, yeah, we've always

4:40

recruited good guys. and they're

4:42

outstanding players, but they're really

4:45

good guys. So we recruited

4:47

talent with character. We didn't

4:49

recruit talented characters. And talented

4:51

characters sometimes think they're better

4:53

than they are. Sometimes talent

4:56

with character doesn't believe they're

4:58

as good. They know they're

5:00

good, but where I think

5:02

they can go. and between

5:04

Shane's sophomore and junior years,

5:06

we needed him to step

5:09

up and become a DHC

5:11

player the year and eventually

5:13

a national player the year.

5:15

So he was working in

5:17

Chicago doing an internship and

5:20

I called him one morning

5:22

and I said, Shane, it's

5:24

Coach Kay. He says, yeah,

5:26

Coach. I said, when you

5:28

went to bed last night,

5:31

did you look in the

5:33

mirror? and say, I'm the

5:35

best player in the EECC.

5:37

And he said, no, and

5:39

I hung up on him.

5:42

And, uh, no. all true.

5:44

And the next day I

5:46

called him again. I said,

5:48

change. Coach Kay. I said,

5:50

this morning, when you were

5:52

going to work, did you

5:55

think about being the best

5:57

player on our national championship

5:59

team? He said, Coach, I'm

6:01

and I hung up on

6:03

him again. And the next

6:06

day I called and he

6:08

said, Coach, don't hang up.

6:10

And I said, well, I

6:12

won't hang up if you

6:14

don't hang up on yourself.

6:17

And you've gone to a

6:19

level that most players would

6:21

love, but you're capable of

6:23

so much more. And I

6:25

told them the four words

6:27

that I think are the

6:30

most powerful words on this

6:32

planet is when you can

6:34

look at someone and say,

6:36

I believe in you. You

6:38

know, and I want you

6:41

to believe in you I

6:43

got chills thinking about it

6:45

because I've had that experience

6:47

with so many of these

6:49

guys and and And they

6:52

respond and Shane then went

6:54

bonkers and he was as

6:56

good a leader as we've

6:58

ever had and as good

7:00

a representative for Duke University

7:03

as as there could be

7:05

he's just magnificent and He's

7:07

a little bit cocky now.

7:09

Now I have to, you

7:11

know, you're not that good.

7:13

How do you know when

7:16

someone's ready to hear, I

7:18

believe in you? You know,

7:20

you get to know him.

7:22

You know, when I recruited

7:24

John Shire, you know, I

7:27

think he was 17 years

7:29

old, 16-17, and I told

7:31

him, like I told all

7:33

the guys we recruited. I'm

7:35

going to be one of

7:38

maybe two, three people. I

7:40

hope there are more in

7:42

your life that will always

7:44

tell you the truth. And

7:46

you can come. on me

7:49

telling you the truth. And

7:51

I said, I want you

7:53

to do that with me.

7:55

And what happens then, if

7:57

you develop that level of

7:59

relationship, the single biggest thing

8:02

that you can develop is

8:04

trust. And if we get

8:06

it going, like we'll see

8:08

in about 40 minutes if

8:10

we get there. I call

8:13

it the speed to trust.

8:15

In other words, I have

8:17

a relationship with John. It

8:19

went to the highest level

8:21

of speed to trust because

8:24

if I said anything to

8:26

him, he believed it. And

8:28

as soon as he said

8:30

something to me, I believed

8:32

it. But he had to

8:35

mature and get there and

8:37

he did. And he's doing

8:39

the same thing with the

8:41

guys that are on this

8:43

dupe team and the guys

8:45

he's recruiting. He's recruiting the

8:48

same thing with the guys

8:50

that are on this dupe

8:52

team and the guys he's

8:54

recruiting. He's recruiting. He's recruiting.

8:56

He's recruiting. He's recruiting. He's

8:59

recruiting. And I think it's

9:01

the thing, it's the biggest

9:03

value of our program. Yeah.

9:05

Trust, although there are others,

9:07

but trust is the key

9:10

one. Yeah. It's so beautiful

9:12

to think about people. There's

9:14

a lot of pastors here

9:16

tonight. There's a lot of

9:18

people who really have all

9:21

kinds of communities at the

9:23

heart of how they think

9:25

about being successful. It's really

9:27

lovely to think about, like,

9:29

the part of the job

9:31

is being like, how quickly

9:34

can we get to a

9:36

place where? You trust me

9:38

to tell the truth to

9:40

you. And I trust myself

9:42

that I'm able to hear

9:45

yours. Yeah, but sometimes the

9:47

truth is hard to take.

9:49

It's not just I believe

9:51

in you. Wouldn't that be

9:53

nice to just leave it

9:56

at that? You're like, yeah.

9:58

And we're good. Thank you.

10:00

I improved nothing. So like

10:02

that first night when I'm

10:04

your recruit now. I saw

10:06

you play. Got a lot

10:09

of work to do and

10:11

two halves dribble anyway. So

10:13

like you're a recruit right

10:15

now, first time I said,

10:17

you know. eye-to-eye contact trust.

10:20

But there's going to be

10:22

a time like a tense

10:24

moment in a game where

10:26

there's a time out and

10:28

you're not playing well. And

10:31

I'm going to tell you

10:33

to get your head in

10:35

the right spot instead of

10:37

where it is right now.

10:39

You have to believe me

10:42

then too. And it can't

10:44

be like, oh man. Yeah,

10:46

he's picking on me or

10:48

whatever. We can't have that

10:50

relationship. We got it. We

10:52

got to cut through the

10:55

tough times quickly and the

10:57

good times will be a

10:59

lot easier quicker. And so

11:01

with Shane, with John, to

11:03

me, that's the thing I

11:06

enjoyed most about my coaching

11:08

career was the relationships with

11:10

all those guys. That's why,

11:12

you know, we have what

11:14

we call the brotherhood and

11:17

we have each other's back.

11:19

But it's based on being

11:21

honest with one another, being

11:23

truthful with one another. Yes.

11:25

Your mom was such an

11:28

important part of your life

11:30

and I wonder when you're

11:32

thinking about greatness, whether she,

11:34

cultivating goodness. I know she

11:36

believed in me and I

11:38

you know my guys would

11:41

would say that they've all

11:43

heard this and I always

11:45

told all of them you

11:47

need you guys need to

11:49

be as tough as your

11:52

mothers and I said like

11:54

my mom I she showed

11:56

up every day I never

11:58

knew she was sick I

12:00

never knew she was tired

12:03

and she was there for

12:05

me all the time. Jay

12:07

Willis, who has a cutting

12:09

sense of humor at times,

12:11

when he says, you know,

12:14

man. I was scared to

12:16

meet Mrs. Shajevsky. And then

12:18

all of a sudden she

12:20

walked in and she's just

12:22

this sweet and sweet and

12:24

sweet. I'm supposed to be

12:27

as tough as her. And

12:29

I said, and you weren't,

12:31

Jay. Just so. But my

12:33

mom only had an eighth

12:35

grade education and she was

12:38

a queen and a lady

12:40

in Chicago athletic club in

12:42

Chicago. But she taught me

12:44

the dignity of work. And

12:46

to be precise, you have

12:49

a job to do, you

12:51

get it done. But also,

12:53

you know, where do you

12:55

earn your values of trust,

12:57

respect, faith, your faith, and

12:59

all that? And so when

13:02

someone says, you know, who's

13:04

your mentor, who do you

13:06

follow? I said, really, my

13:08

mom and dad were my

13:10

mentors. You know, other people

13:13

taught me. And I learned

13:15

from a bunch of people,

13:17

but if they didn't till

13:19

the ground, till the soil

13:21

the right way, and they

13:24

did that. And when I

13:26

went to West Point, she

13:28

was the major reason I

13:30

went to West Point. I

13:32

didn't want to go to

13:35

West Point. And I was

13:37

going to go to Creighton

13:39

or Wisconsin to play basketball.

13:41

And Bob Knight was my

13:43

college coach, and he had

13:45

to come in and... When

13:48

he came to visit, my

13:50

parents, when he left, my

13:52

parents said, you're going to

13:54

West Point. Congratulations. I said,

13:56

I'm not going to West

13:59

Point. And they said, that's

14:01

where presidents go. And I

14:03

said, I don't want to

14:05

be present. I want to

14:07

be a point guard. And

14:10

so I told Knight, no,

14:12

Coach Knight, no. And ethnic,

14:14

maybe in every family. Polish

14:16

family, in Chicago, there are

14:18

two story houses they're called

14:21

flats. We lived on one

14:23

floor, my aunt and uncle

14:25

lived on another. And when

14:27

my parents didn't want me

14:29

and my brother Bill to

14:31

know what they're talking, they

14:34

spoke in Polish. And so

14:36

after I said no for

14:38

two straight weeks, my mom

14:40

and dad would speak in

14:42

Polish. And they would go

14:45

and pretend this is Polish.

14:47

Stupid. Mike. No, this is

14:49

all true. It's like two

14:51

weeks. And finally I said,

14:53

all right, I'll go. And

14:56

then it was difficult. It

14:58

was right at the end.

15:00

And I call it the

15:02

best decision I never made.

15:04

But I trusted my mom

15:07

and dad and they believed

15:09

in me. They believed that

15:11

I could do that. And

15:13

then once you got there,

15:15

you were also taught. You

15:17

finished what you start. So

15:20

again, it turned my whole

15:22

life around. And eventually to

15:24

be coaching here and US

15:26

teams and all that. And

15:28

it's because of. Emily and

15:31

Bill. And there's no question.

15:33

I also read that West

15:35

Point was a time of

15:37

tremendous failure for you as

15:39

you failed. Why do you?

15:42

Is this the point? Tremendous

15:44

failure. Tremendous failure. Tremendous failure.

15:46

I see here. You failed

15:48

both swimming and gymnastics classes.

15:50

At West Point. Just to

15:52

confirm or deny. Not gymnastics.

15:55

swimming. No, this was crazy.

15:57

So, at West Point. They

15:59

change your way, they make

16:01

you fail. You know, the

16:03

part of, I don't understand

16:06

why people don't accept the

16:08

fact that part of getting

16:10

better is failure. You know,

16:12

so otherwise you get an

16:14

app for a new talent

16:17

instead of developing a talent.

16:19

And so at West Point

16:21

we had a saying failure

16:23

is not our destination. And

16:25

so swimming. So I grew

16:28

up in the inner city

16:30

of Chicago, there weren't pools.

16:32

There were fire hydrants. And

16:34

Lake Michigan, you only went

16:36

up to your waist. All

16:38

right? So the second day

16:41

at West Point, you go

16:43

through a thing called beast

16:45

barracks, and you do a

16:47

swimming test. There's a pool

16:49

that's seven feet, the whole,

16:52

you know, which is cheating.

16:54

You know, I mean, you

16:56

can't start on the two-foot

16:58

part. So the upper classman

17:00

gives you a ten pound

17:03

rubber brick. and then says,

17:05

swim as far as you

17:07

can with the bread. I

17:09

said, sir, I can't swim.

17:11

And said, jump in. So

17:14

you jump in, you go

17:16

to the bottom of the

17:18

pool, the weight goes to

17:20

the bottom, they pull the

17:22

weight out first, and they

17:24

take you up. So my

17:27

whole freshman year, my plea

17:29

of year, three times a

17:31

week, I was in the

17:33

rock squad. with about 30

17:35

other guys and it's 7

17:38

o'clock Monday Wednesday and Friday

17:40

mornings you went there and

17:42

I still remember the guy

17:44

Mr. Search he's all in

17:46

white and we're hugging on

17:49

to the side of the

17:51

pool you know and he

17:53

says gentlemen remember there are

17:55

no walls in the ocean

17:57

And we're looking at, we're

18:00

looking at this guy's nuts.

18:02

No. We're in the army,

18:04

not the Navy. I'm not

18:06

in Annapolis. I'm at West

18:08

Point. I'm gonna be

18:10

in a tank or

18:12

a jeep. I don't

18:15

need to know how

18:17

to swim. The fact

18:19

is, you have a mission,

18:21

you have something to do,

18:24

you get it done. I

18:26

played for one of the

18:28

great coaches of all time

18:31

in Bob Knight, and I was

18:33

the point guard and then

18:35

captain. So I really learned

18:37

about basketball and leading the

18:39

team, and then I went to

18:41

the best leadership school in

18:44

the world. Like, even though

18:46

it didn't seem like you were

18:48

lucky when those things were going

18:50

on, I really was very, very

18:53

lucky to have that happen. Yeah,

18:56

that's gonna stick with

18:58

me. The ocean. Yes,

19:00

there'll be three more

19:03

questions about failure.

19:05

And by the way,

19:07

the gymnastics. You're like,

19:10

let the points down.

19:12

No, like why do you

19:14

climb a rope? You know, and

19:16

why do you have to do

19:19

things on that thing they call

19:21

a horse? Yeah. Get a horse.

19:23

You know. Why

19:26

do you do those

19:28

sex? And so some

19:30

I'm not against people

19:32

doing and I just

19:34

Was never in my

19:36

okay. What's your goals

19:38

in your dreams? Climbing

19:41

a rope swimming and

19:43

Doing all kind of

19:46

crazy things on a

19:48

horse. That was not what

19:50

I want We're

19:54

going to be right back after a

19:56

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22:37

Let's go places. I want

22:39

to talk about the early

22:41

years of you leading because

22:43

I know there's a lot

22:45

of people in this room

22:48

who lead in their communities

22:50

and their families in their

22:52

companies, in their churches, and

22:54

frankly leading is an incredibly

22:56

vulnerable position. Leading out front,

22:58

everybody watches, everybody thinks they

23:00

can do your job. Not

23:02

that anyone has ever insinuated

23:04

that. But it's just a

23:06

strangely vulnerable position to get

23:08

used to, especially before you've

23:10

had an incredible track record.

23:12

You just have this year

23:14

effort of trying. I wonder

23:16

what advice you might be

23:18

able to get people who

23:21

are really just feeling the

23:23

vulnerability of leading, right? Well,

23:25

there's an ex- I think

23:27

leadership is the best profession

23:29

in the world. And it's

23:31

exciting because every day is

23:33

different. And as a leader,

23:35

you have a chance to

23:37

get a group of people,

23:39

use their talents together to

23:41

accomplish something good. What I'm

23:43

lecturing on now or speaking

23:45

on right now with leadership,

23:47

I call it the three

23:49

A's of leadership. And the

23:52

first day is agility. Like

23:54

if you're a quarterback and

23:56

you call a player at

23:58

the... scrimmage wine and you

24:00

see that the play isn't

24:02

going to work. so you

24:04

call an audible. You're a

24:06

point guard, you're bringing the

24:08

ball down to court, you're

24:10

supposed to run a play,

24:12

but you see something more

24:14

opportunistic. So a really good

24:16

leader is agile. And, but

24:18

you're more agile if you

24:20

have the second A, and

24:22

that's being adaptable. And obviously,

24:25

adapting to it, AI, with

24:27

new technology and all that.

24:29

But the single biggest thing

24:31

I think a leader has

24:33

to adapt to is communication.

24:35

And for leaders, though, if

24:37

you have the opportunity to

24:39

lead with your groups, it's

24:41

really cool if I know

24:43

your son's birthday or an

24:45

anniversary or something going on.

24:47

Like, oh, man, they think

24:49

of me. But what if

24:51

we're involved at something something?

24:53

And I said, How do

24:55

you feel about what we're

24:58

doing? What do you think

25:00

about what we're doing? It

25:02

hits you in a different

25:04

place. You mean, you want

25:06

to know what I think

25:08

or feel? Yeah, I want

25:10

to know that. And what

25:12

that does, I think, it

25:14

empowers to people on your

25:16

team, where they have ownership.

25:18

They feel part of it.

25:20

The other thing, a lot

25:22

of people think leaders are

25:24

people who solve problems. And

25:26

that's cool, you know, that's

25:29

part of it. But the

25:31

real outstanding leaders have this

25:33

communication system where their team

25:35

anticipates problems, and so they

25:37

never occur. And that's where

25:39

that agility comes in. If

25:41

you have the people around

25:43

you instead of me asking,

25:45

you're telling. We have that

25:47

level of relationship. Those two

25:49

are not good if without

25:51

the third A and that's

25:53

accountability and I true believe

25:55

in accountability and a lot

25:57

of people it's not alive

25:59

and well right now. You

26:02

know people don't like to

26:04

be to hold somebody accountable

26:06

and accountability is just meeting

26:08

the truth head-on and the

26:10

toughest accountability thing I ever

26:12

had was with the US

26:14

team in 2008 Beige and

26:16

it was with Kobe Bryant

26:18

who was at that time

26:20

the best player in the

26:22

world and I love coaching

26:24

and we miss him and

26:26

we miss him. And

26:28

we're getting ready to go

26:31

to Beijing, and we're in

26:33

Shanghai, playing our last exhibition

26:35

game. And we're doing great.

26:37

And Kobe started taking Lakers

26:39

shots. Nothing against the Lakers

26:41

now, because JJ's coaching them.

26:43

But they were bad shots.

26:45

They weren't US shots. So

26:47

during the, there was a

26:49

free throw. And while the

26:51

free throw is going on,

26:53

LeBron James came and he

26:55

comes in, players don't always

26:57

say things, they look. You

26:59

know, so he looks at

27:01

me like, there's going to

27:03

be a mutiny. And I

27:05

said to him, I said,

27:07

don't do anything, I'll take

27:09

care of it. And players

27:11

of that stature will always

27:13

give you another look. And

27:15

I said, I promise you,

27:18

I'll take care of it.

27:20

So. the rest of the

27:22

game we win the game

27:24

but you can tell we're

27:26

disintegrating a little bit so

27:28

that night I stayed up

27:30

literally it's a true story

27:32

all night with my staff

27:34

because I have to hold

27:36

Kobe Bryant accountable so I'm

27:38

thinking the next morning comes

27:40

and I see Kobe I

27:42

said Kobe I need to

27:44

talk to you said of

27:46

course coach and we go

27:48

into a team room and

27:50

I look at him. He's

27:52

got these piercing beautiful eyes.

27:54

He's really one of the...

27:56

players I've ever had the

27:58

opportunity to be with. And

28:00

I said, look, yesterday you

28:03

took really bad shots. And

28:05

I want to show them

28:07

to you. So we had

28:09

them on tape. I said,

28:11

if you take those shots,

28:13

we will not win the

28:15

gold medal. We won't want

28:17

a medal. We won't have

28:19

a team. And I said,

28:21

and I look at him,

28:23

he's looking. I said, oh,

28:25

yeah. And he's said, You

28:27

understand, you can't take those

28:29

shots. Now I'm waiting for

28:31

World War III, right? And

28:33

he looks at me and

28:35

he says, okay. And my

28:37

heart dropped. I said, I

28:39

stayed up all night for

28:41

okay. So now I'm like

28:43

LeBron. I can't believe that

28:45

he actually said that. So

28:47

I said, you should, this

28:50

coach, that won't happen again.

28:52

So fast forward. Three weeks

28:54

later, we're in the toughest

28:56

game I've ever been a

28:58

part of, up till that

29:00

point since, the gold medal

29:02

game in Beijing against Spain.

29:04

And they have the Gasoles

29:06

and everybody. And we're beating

29:08

them, they come back, we

29:10

have a two-point lead with

29:12

eight minutes to go, timeout

29:14

our ball, and you could

29:16

just feel the tension. All

29:18

three of my daughters and

29:20

my wife are like this

29:22

in the stand. I started

29:24

drawing up a play and

29:26

the guy that I held

29:28

accountable put his hand on

29:30

my hand and he said,

29:32

coach, we don't need a

29:35

play. I get some chills

29:37

just thinking about this stuff.

29:39

Man, it's one of great

29:41

moments. And he said, we're

29:43

wired for this. We're ready

29:45

for this. And then LeBron

29:47

says something, Carmela Anthony and

29:49

Wayne Wade. And all of

29:51

a sudden we leave the

29:53

bench without a play. That

29:55

may have worked or may

29:57

not have... for it. But

29:59

I forgot to tell you

30:01

there's a fourth A. And

30:03

it's called attitude. And we

30:05

left the bench. They left

30:07

the bench with a winning

30:09

attitude. And as a result

30:11

of the winning attitude, they

30:13

not only made one play,

30:15

they may play after play

30:17

after play. And we won

30:19

the darn gold medal. And

30:22

what I'm saying is being

30:24

agile, adaptable and accountable. develops

30:26

a winning attitude with your

30:28

unit, where you can win,

30:30

man. You know, you can

30:32

make play after play, and

30:34

it's not the leader's play.

30:36

It's our play. You know,

30:38

it's what we do. And

30:40

so I believe in this

30:42

stuff. Look, I believe in

30:44

it because it works. Yeah.

30:46

The ability to wrap people

30:48

into this story that's bigger

30:50

than yourself. I mean, it's

30:52

a really beautiful thing to

30:54

see up close. It reminds

30:56

me of, I went to

30:58

the basketball dinner last year,

31:00

which I think is a

31:02

tradition that you started. But

31:04

it was kind of lovely,

31:07

well, so it's this incredible

31:09

tradition, the family and friends

31:11

and players, and I was

31:13

sitting with this lovely couple

31:15

where it was a husband

31:17

and wife and this very

31:19

basketball looking son. And he's

31:21

very, very, very tall. He

31:23

was like picking up things

31:25

like this. Their hands are

31:27

a bit. That's really. Hopefully

31:29

they use the knife and

31:31

fort. The family was like

31:33

absolutely over the moon to

31:35

be there and they were

31:37

all absolutely deeply invested in

31:39

the Duke team and in

31:41

Duke and especially in John.

31:43

Like apparently John had been

31:45

this incredible mentor to the

31:47

Sun and just... loved them

31:49

and appreciated them and woe

31:52

them into this story of

31:54

who we are and by

31:56

the time I'm sitting next

31:58

to them at this dinner,

32:00

they are just beaming with

32:02

love toward a story that

32:04

they feel incredibly a part

32:06

of. And the dad was

32:08

like, well, and I just

32:10

pray for John all the

32:12

time. And as someone who

32:14

thinks a lot about God

32:16

and the fact that you're

32:18

not technically allowed to ask

32:20

God to make you win

32:22

certain things, I was like,

32:24

really, like, what do you

32:26

pray for? And he was

32:28

like, oh, I pray for

32:30

love. There's love and winning.

32:32

And there's love and losing.

32:34

And I thought, you know,

32:36

as someone who thinks a

32:39

lot about the love I

32:41

learned in losing, when things

32:43

come apart, the way people

32:45

can encircle you, the beauty

32:47

of things you took for

32:49

granted, that part made sense

32:51

to me. But when I

32:53

watched you all, when he

32:55

said, there's love in winning,

32:57

I thought, I think there's

32:59

richness there that I hadn't

33:01

really, really thought about. You

33:03

know, before every game, I'm

33:05

Catholic. And my wife's Baptist

33:07

and we get along. They

33:09

sing more than we do.

33:11

And it's English, it's not

33:13

Latin, her. And they say

33:15

a mental lot. And I

33:17

would always say a quick

33:19

prayer. And I would always

33:21

say a quick prayer. And

33:24

I would never ask about

33:26

winning. I said just help

33:28

me do my best. And

33:30

so really funny story. In

33:32

1986, one of our, to

33:34

me, one of the truly

33:36

special teams ever in any

33:38

sport here at Duke was

33:40

my 86 team. And we're

33:42

playing Navy with David Robinson

33:44

to go to the final

33:46

four. And they're really good.

33:48

And we're really good. We're

33:50

number one in a country.

33:52

But before the game, I

33:54

said, I don't want to

33:56

be sacrilegious, but you know.

33:58

God, not Navy. So,

34:01

no, it's true. And

34:03

we beat him pretty

34:06

good, so thank you.

34:08

But I believe faith

34:10

is big. It keeps

34:13

you, like, with everybody.

34:15

And in family,

34:18

to me is the most

34:20

important. And in

34:23

family, to me

34:25

is the most

34:28

important. what we tried

34:30

to do with our basketball

34:32

program is make that a family.

34:35

And I think we did, and

34:37

I think John and Marcel are

34:40

doing the same thing.

34:42

And that's a differentiator.

34:44

And when people, when

34:47

you're recruiting people and

34:49

you're bringing people in,

34:51

and they not only see, but

34:54

they feel. And I think when

34:56

the young men. and their families

34:58

come and visit us, they see

35:00

great things, obviously, but they feel

35:02

welcomed and they feel a

35:05

family atmosphere. A lot of the

35:07

beauty and what I get to see in

35:09

communities is the way that they

35:11

learn to rely on each other, but

35:13

relying on each other is not easy,

35:15

and it usually only

35:17

comes when our individualism

35:19

is sort of brought to a

35:21

screeching halt. not because we

35:24

wanted it to. And I know you had

35:26

a season like that where you would have

35:28

rather just keep working hard forever

35:30

and ever, but in 95 you

35:33

really were brought to a screeching

35:35

halt both physically and mentally. I

35:37

wondered if you could tell us

35:39

about what brought in here. During that

35:41

year I got the start of all

35:44

my two knees replaced, two hips

35:46

replaced, an ankle replaced and

35:48

back operations and back operations.

35:51

We had gone to seven

35:53

final fours in nine years.

35:56

And in number one

35:58

and all that. And. I

36:01

was worn out. And then

36:03

I had a back operation

36:05

a couple days into practice

36:07

and I was supposed to

36:10

be out for a month

36:12

and I was back in

36:14

two days. And by December,

36:17

I was just, that was

36:19

it. And so I had

36:21

no feeling. I mean, I

36:23

could touch, but I, no

36:26

emotion, none. And we have

36:28

a great precedent here. Invents

36:30

and his wife and that

36:33

and I've worked for great

36:35

presidents here too and One

36:37

became Guy that I held

36:40

with his team and that

36:42

was Keith Brody and He

36:44

worked I mean I would

36:46

watch tape of us beating

36:49

Las Vegas or one I

36:51

said I can't do that

36:53

anymore. You know, I don't

36:56

feel it and we took

36:58

about three months of therapy

37:00

and finally I got it

37:03

back and but I stopped

37:05

being a micromanager and I

37:07

started making sure that every

37:09

was everyone was in power

37:12

I changed my leadership style

37:14

and and at that time

37:16

my middle daughter Wendy she

37:19

was you know she's a

37:21

psychologist and On campus we

37:23

didn't have anything really developed

37:25

yet, where a guy would

37:28

be comfortable, an athlete to

37:30

do that. So Keith and

37:32

my daughter, Wendy, started counseling

37:35

for our team. And now

37:37

we have magnificent things here.

37:39

But because of that happening

37:42

to me, I wanted to

37:44

make sure that wasn't going

37:46

to happen. the guys on

37:48

my team and I really

37:51

didn't. look at that before

37:53

that time. You know, like,

37:55

come on, you got to

37:58

go. And I don't know

38:00

if it resonated in our

38:02

society at that time either.

38:05

But when it resonated with

38:07

me and going through it,

38:09

I said, we need to

38:11

do something. Yeah. What was

38:14

lovely too about Keith Brody

38:16

was, he had this amazing

38:18

way of making you feel

38:21

like your problems could be

38:23

broken down into very concrete

38:25

steps. Like he was so

38:28

ready to help you solve

38:30

your problem. And I will

38:32

admit that when it comes

38:34

to my personal crisis, like,

38:37

I'm a bit of a

38:39

nightmare to help. A bit

38:41

of a nightmare? Thanks for

38:44

making me say that again.

38:46

You know, that was the

38:48

Scotland report on you. I

38:53

thought we were going

38:55

to get through the

38:57

game before we have

38:59

to talk all that.

39:01

But I'm ready for

39:03

it. I'm ready for

39:06

it. Were you a

39:08

nightmare to help? I

39:10

was just real level-headed,

39:12

good guy. We're

39:21

going to take a quick

39:23

break to tell you about

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the sponsors of this show.

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We'll be right back. I'm

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Megan and I've got a

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through it all, I'm building

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40:23

Rewatch podcast. That's right. We're watching

40:25

all the episodes of Bones, starting

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with episode one, and we are

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the right people to do it.

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I play Dr. Temperance Brannon, and

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Tune in every Wednesday to hear

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all our behind-the-scenes, conversations, conversations, conversations,

40:46

For all those, I know

40:49

you were just a couple

40:51

years past full-time coaching into

40:53

this speaking and I wonder

40:56

if you have any advice

40:58

to think about closing tonight

41:00

for all those who might

41:03

be in a transition right

41:05

now between one thing and

41:07

another or between empty nesting

41:10

or starting something, you're a

41:12

master of transition. I'm curious.

41:14

And so if you are,

41:16

then you're a lifelong learner.

41:19

And so you never feel

41:21

like you've learned everything. And

41:23

so to me, life is

41:26

still incredibly interesting. And it's

41:28

even more interesting because I

41:30

don't have to depend on

41:33

those guys in the striped

41:35

shirts. They are despicable. We

41:37

put a woman at that

41:40

now, not a woman at,

41:42

but anyway. Now, people are

41:44

the most interesting thing on

41:46

Earth as a human being.

41:49

And to me, these last

41:51

two and a half years,

41:53

I've been able to, like

41:56

I advise for the NBA

41:58

right now, and I'm still

42:00

really into John and I

42:03

have a great relationship. But

42:05

I like getting out there

42:07

and learning about people. You

42:10

may have time for one

42:12

last story. Let's get in

42:14

there. So my first practice

42:16

with the U.S. team, we're

42:19

in the gym obviously, and

42:21

we're running a fast break

42:23

drill, and Jason Kidd is

42:26

the coach of the Dallas

42:28

Mavericks, a great Hall of

42:30

Fame player, and he's leading

42:33

the fast break, and LeBron,

42:35

some one Wayne and Wayne

42:37

weights and another, and balls

42:40

going everywhere. And so, and

42:42

not where it's supposed to.

42:44

So I said, yo, yeah,

42:46

you guys come on over

42:49

here. And this was one

42:51

of the great moments for

42:53

me in coaching, this moment

42:56

that I'm gonna say. So

42:58

before I say anything, Jay

43:00

Kidd says, coach, that's on

43:03

me, you know, I'll tone

43:05

it down. As soon as

43:07

he said that three or

43:10

four of the guy said,

43:12

no, no, no, no. We've

43:14

never played with anybody like

43:17

you. Let us adjust. I'm

43:19

gonna cry really. This is

43:21

so damn good. What us

43:23

adjust to your talent? Boo.

43:26

But he wanted to try.

43:28

And I had to let

43:30

him, knowing that all the

43:33

words that people associate with

43:35

kids and hobbies, like, are

43:37

they natural or... Are they

43:40

a prodigy or just all

43:42

the values that get connected?

43:44

to children trying and sports

43:47

is just something I was

43:49

sort of hoping to opt

43:51

out of. I think it

43:53

turned into a lesson for

43:56

both of us. The parent

43:58

who is desperate to allow

44:00

her kid to try but

44:03

only in a limited way,

44:05

and the kid who really

44:07

wanted to get out there,

44:10

but also then immediately figured

44:12

out that trying is really,

44:14

really hard. And I won't

44:17

say that he became a

44:19

natural prodigy. that baseball isn't

44:21

all of our future, I

44:23

will say that there's something

44:26

really magical about a team.

44:28

There's something about watching other

44:30

adults, other trusted people pour

44:33

into your kid, allowing other

44:35

people to encourage even reprimand

44:37

your person, and in doing

44:40

so, help them learn to

44:42

test themselves against the limits

44:44

of what they didn't know

44:47

they could do. What is

44:49

so lovely about teammates who

44:51

like scream and cry and

44:53

cheer each other on in

44:56

every win and loss? And

44:58

you know what? I learned

45:00

in this whole thing. There

45:03

is crying in baseball. There's

45:05

so much crying. But there

45:07

was something Becky Kennedy said,

45:10

that amazing parenting expert. She's

45:12

like, look, we're just, we're

45:14

not going to be perfect

45:17

at things and we're trying

45:19

not to be terrible, but

45:21

in everything, we're just trying

45:23

to stay in the learning

45:26

zone. I loved that. Let's

45:28

just all stay in the

45:30

learning zone. Because there is

45:33

love in winning. And there's

45:35

also love in losing. In

45:37

both, we are becoming. And

45:40

hey, I'd love to know

45:42

what you learned from being

45:44

on a team. Call me

45:47

or leave me a voicemail

45:49

at 9-1-9-22-8-7-3-1. Or write me

45:51

on social media. I'm at

45:53

Kate C. Bowler. I would

45:56

love to hear your funniest

45:58

or most meaningful team stories.

46:00

So, darlings, I thought we

46:03

could bless the feeling where

46:05

we're not necessarily winners all

46:07

the time, but we really

46:10

want to try. So here

46:12

we go. May you have

46:14

enough? Enough forgiveness to survive

46:17

other people's failures? Enough courage

46:19

to get back up again

46:21

and again and again. Enough

46:24

people to remind you that

46:26

you always have a team.

46:29

Enough profanity to tell the

46:31

necessary truth and a whole

46:33

lot of grace to survive

46:36

a world in which everything

46:38

happens. Oh, and hey, it

46:40

is the season of Lent,

46:43

which is the season for

46:45

losers everywhere, when God is

46:47

on the losing team, to

46:50

keep the basketball metaphor going.

46:52

and we have some ways

46:54

that you can join in

46:56

for free. We have a

46:59

daily devotional and conversation guides

47:01

that you can use as

47:03

a group. So whether you

47:06

want to do it by

47:08

yourself or with other people,

47:10

get them all for free

47:13

at capeler.com/Lent. And a big

47:15

thank you to our funding

47:17

partners, Lily Endowment, the Duke

47:20

Endowment, and Duke Divinity School,

47:22

and to the team behind

47:24

everything happening and everything happens.

47:27

Jess Ritchie, Harriet Putman, Keith

47:29

Weston. Bays-Hoeen, Wen Higginbotham, Brenda

47:31

Thompson, Iris Green, Haley Durrett,

47:34

Anne Herring, Hope Anderson, Kristen

47:36

Balzer, Elias Zoneo, Catherine Smith,

47:38

and Megan Crunkleton. Thank you.

47:40

This is Everything Happens with

47:43

Me, Kate Boller. Want

47:53

more from your favorite lemonauta

47:56

media podcast while supporting the

47:58

shows that help make life

48:00

suck less? Subsc... to Lemonada

48:02

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48:13

to sign up no matter

48:16

what podcast app you use.

48:18

On Apple, you can just

48:20

click the Lemonada logo in

48:22

the Apple Podcast app and

48:25

hit subscribe. For all other

48:27

podcast apps, head to Lemonada.supportingcast.f7.

48:30

Hi everyone, Gloria Riviera here and

48:33

we are back for another season

48:35

of No One is Coming to

48:37

Save Us, a podcast about America's

48:39

child care crisis. This season we're

48:41

delving deep into five critical issues

48:44

facing our country through the lens

48:46

of child care, poverty, mental health,

48:48

housing, climate change, and the public

48:50

school system. By exploring these connections,

48:52

we aim to highlight that childcare

48:54

is not an isolated issue, but

48:57

one that influences all facets of

48:59

American life. Season 4 of No

49:01

One is Coming to Save Us

49:03

is out now wherever you get

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your podcast. American Life. Season 4

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of No One is Coming to

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Save Us is out now wherever

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while supporting the shows that help

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It's easy to sign up no

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On Apple, you can just click

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That's lemonada.supportingcast.f.f.m.