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quote today. You might have

2:15

noticed that things are a

2:18

little different on cautionary tales

2:20

this year. In 2024, we

2:23

brought you a new episode

2:25

every fortnight. But this year,

2:27

we are doubling our output.

2:30

New stories of heart-thumping peril.

2:32

mind-blowing mistakes, and jaw-dropping scandal

2:35

will now be delivered straight

2:37

to your ears every week.

2:40

Here's one for you right

2:42

now. Good day! My name's

2:44

Adam Hills, and welcome to

2:47

a special children's music edition

2:49

of Spicks and Spets. Spixen

2:52

Spex is a long-running

2:55

staple of Australian TV.

2:57

It's an irreverent quiz

2:59

show, hitting mixed teams

3:01

of musicians and comedians

3:04

against one another to

3:06

answer questions on rock

3:08

and pop. In 2007,

3:10

host Adam Hills was

3:13

presiding over a special

3:15

episode dedicated to kids'

3:17

tunes. There'd be lots

3:19

of comic potential in

3:22

that. He asked the

3:24

teams to buzz in

3:26

if they could. Name

3:28

the Australian nursery rhyme

3:31

that this riff was

3:33

based on. The opening

3:35

bars of Men at

3:37

Work's Song Down Under

3:40

played. The two teams

3:42

looked mystified. Which? Nursery

3:44

rhyme? Down Under

3:46

is often referred to

3:49

as Australia's alternative national

3:51

anthem. It is to

3:53

Australians what Bruce Springsteen's

3:55

born in the USA

3:57

is to Americans. Back

3:59

in the early 1980s.

4:02

It was a global

4:04

smash. Topping the charts

4:06

in Canada, the US,

4:08

New Zealand, the United

4:10

Kingdom and Switzerland. It

4:12

went gold, then platinum,

4:15

then double platinum. Millions

4:17

of copies were sold.

4:19

The team on spicks

4:21

and specs had no

4:23

doubt heard it hundreds,

4:25

if not thousands of

4:28

times. But no one

4:30

could think of an

4:32

Australian nursery rhyme that

4:34

sounded remotely like it.

4:36

Are you kidding? One

4:38

of the exasperated contestants

4:41

asked Adam Hills. Okay,

4:43

I'll give you one

4:45

more listen to it,

4:47

said Hills. This bit

4:49

especially. Hills punched his

4:51

pen in the air

4:54

along to the rhythm

4:56

of the song's flute

4:58

line. D-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-ed-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d- One contestant

5:00

held her head in

5:02

her hands. The question

5:04

was frying her brains.

5:07

Finally, someone buzzed in.

5:09

Cookabura sits in the

5:11

old gum tree? That's

5:13

exactly right, said Hills.

5:15

I believe that someone

5:17

got the answer at

5:20

last. Watching everyone flummoxed

5:22

wasn't a memorable moment

5:24

that would enter the

5:26

annals of TV history.

5:28

Or was it? Someone

5:30

watching Spicks and Spex

5:33

that night was certainly

5:35

intrigued by the exchange,

5:37

and quickly reached out

5:39

to Norm Lurie, managing

5:41

director of Larkin music

5:43

publishing. Did he know

5:46

that men at work

5:48

had used kukabara sits

5:50

in the old gum

5:52

tree in their smash

5:54

hit record? Norm did

5:56

not. but the information

5:59

interested him greatly. He

6:01

now seemed to have

6:03

a very valuable property

6:05

on his hands because

6:07

years before and for

6:09

a song, he'd bought

6:12

the rights to that

6:14

simple, catchy nursery rhyme.

6:16

Now, thanks to spicks

6:18

and specs, his company

6:20

might collect a fortune.

6:22

I'm Tim Harford, and

6:24

you're listening to another

6:27

cautionary tale. Flute

6:54

player Greg Hamm was a

6:56

late edition to Men at

6:59

Work. The band's founding members,

7:01

the Scots-born singer Colin Hay,

7:03

and lead guitarist Ron Strikeert,

7:06

had been playing as an

7:08

acoustic duo for a year

7:11

or so. They performed together

7:13

and wrote together in what

7:15

Friends described as a musical

7:18

marriage. Colin Hay had a

7:20

folk background, but with Ron

7:22

Strikeert, no style was off

7:25

the table. They experimented with

7:27

punky new wave sounds, and

7:29

mixed in the more laid-back

7:32

beats of reggae. One of

7:34

their first joint compositions was

7:37

Down Under, a jokey owed

7:39

to the legendary wanderlust of

7:41

Australians. The song tells of

7:44

an Ozzy youth, travelling the

7:46

world in a beaten-up VW

7:48

camper van, encountering strange and

7:51

exotic locals who are all...

7:53

transfixed by his Antipodian homeland.

7:55

Do you come from the

7:58

land down under? they would

8:00

ask him. Where beard is...

8:02

flow and men chunder? Chunder

8:05

by the way is Australian

8:07

slang for vomit. Down under

8:10

paints an unsentimental yet fond

8:12

picture of modern Australia and

8:14

it went down a storm

8:17

when the band now swelled

8:19

with a bassist drummer and

8:21

Greg Hamm on flute played

8:24

it in the rowdy pubs

8:26

of Melbourne. It was the

8:28

B-side of their self-financed first

8:31

single. But it wasn't the

8:33

version you'd probably recognize. It

8:35

had a slower, dreamier tempo.

8:38

A bit Prague rock. A

8:40

bit reggae. A bit psychedelic.

8:43

When the band signed to

8:45

a major label and the

8:47

track was re-recorded, Greg Hamm

8:50

came up with a new

8:52

flute hook to enliven a

8:54

sped-up arrangement. It had come

8:57

to him during a live

8:59

jam session. Down Under was

9:01

Quint, essentially, Australian. and he

9:04

wanted to add to the

9:06

existing composition what he called

9:09

an ozzy cliche melody. Marian

9:11

Sinclair had been... Marian Sinclair

9:13

had been making up songs

9:16

and rhymes since she was

9:18

a girl. An only child

9:20

and home educated... Marian staved

9:23

off loneliness by creating a

9:25

rich internal world of fantasy

9:27

and imagination. Piano lessons gave

9:30

her the musical education to

9:32

hone her compositions and set

9:34

them down on paper. She

9:37

made this youthful hobby her

9:39

life, becoming a drama and

9:42

music teacher in the 1920s,

9:44

and throwing herself into the

9:46

girl guides, the Australian equivalent

9:49

of the Girl Scouts. It

9:52

was while in church

9:54

that inspiration struck Marian,

9:56

prompting her to create

9:58

by far her most

10:01

popular ditty. Rushing home,

10:03

she set down, Cucabara

10:05

sits in the old

10:07

gum tree. The Cucabara

10:09

is one of Australia's

10:11

most iconic birds. Carnivorous,

10:14

boisterous and noisy, its

10:16

call resembles a raucous

10:18

human laugh. Gum trees,

10:20

or rather trees of

10:22

the eucalyptus family, are

10:24

equally iconic and quintessentially

10:27

Australian. Perhaps this subject

10:29

matter swayed the judges

10:31

when, in 1934, Marian

10:33

entered her song for

10:35

a competition run by

10:37

the Girl Guides Association

10:39

of Victoria. They wanted

10:42

a typically Australian round

10:44

to be sung at

10:46

the upcoming Pan-Pacific scouting

10:48

jamboree. And they chose,

10:50

Cookborough. Rounds

11:07

are simple tunes, where

11:09

the singers follow the

11:11

same melody, but start

11:13

at different times. Ro-ro-ro-ro-your-boat,

11:15

Freira-Jaka, and Three Blind

11:17

Mice are prime examples.

11:20

They're a fun and

11:22

near foolproof way for

11:24

amateur singers to achieve

11:26

a pleasing harmony. You

11:28

no doubt sung them

11:30

at school. Cucabuera

11:34

almost instantly became a classic

11:36

of the genre. And when

11:38

the international visitors to the

11:41

Jamboree returned home, they took

11:43

with them this slice of

11:46

Australiana, singing it lustily from

11:48

London to Lahore. Marian Sinclair

11:50

didn't cash in on this

11:53

success though. Heaven forbid. Marian

11:55

wasn't interested in collecting... from

11:58

scouts or guides or anyone

12:00

else enjoying her song and

12:02

encouraging others to sing it.

12:05

It wasn't until 1975 that

12:07

Marian was finally persuaded to

12:10

register the composition as belonging

12:12

to her. And she was

12:14

far too busy studying, teaching,

12:17

aiding refugees, working with old

12:19

people, and running a hostel

12:22

for girls to chase people

12:24

for copyright infringement and demand

12:26

her copyright infringement and demand

12:29

her It's conceivable

12:31

that in old age she

12:33

heard down under. In Australia

12:36

it was played everywhere. But

12:38

she either didn't recognize any

12:40

similarities to her own composition

12:43

or simply didn't care. Marian

12:45

dismissed Kookabura sits in the

12:48

old gum tree as a

12:50

trifle and no match for

12:52

her other songs. And anyway,

12:55

it came to me from

12:57

above, she'd say, I don't

12:59

own it. After

13:02

a life of Christian service,

13:04

Marian Sinclair died in 1988,

13:06

having signed over her rights

13:09

to the libraries board of

13:11

South Australia. Larracken Music Publishing

13:14

then swooped in to buy

13:16

the ownership of Cookabara with

13:19

an interesting business model in

13:21

mind. For years, people had

13:24

assumed Marian's song was free

13:26

to use free to use.

13:28

So they'd included it in

13:31

books teaching youngsters to play

13:33

musical instruments and recorded it

13:36

on albums of children's songs.

13:38

Norm Lurie at Larrickin now

13:41

busied himself delivering the bad

13:43

news. Kookabara was under new

13:45

ownership and it wasn't free.

13:48

Norm had spent only a

13:50

few thousand dollars acquiring the

13:53

rights. A sum hid swiftly

13:55

recouped. It's earned a hell

13:58

of a lot of money

14:00

for us since we've bought

14:03

it, he admitted. But thanks

14:05

to spix and specs, Larikin

14:07

was now looking at a

14:10

very different proposition. Down Under

14:12

had helped men at work

14:15

win a Grammy. Its initial

14:17

success as a single had

14:20

been huge, but it had

14:22

been steadily earning on albums

14:25

and greatest hits compilations for

14:27

nearly 30 years. Norm Lurie.

14:29

now wanted a cut. So

14:32

sued men at work for

14:34

60% of the profits. It

14:37

was a huge sum, and

14:39

if he won, it was

14:42

a figure that would cause

14:44

the members of men at

14:47

work, immense suffering. Cautionary tales

14:49

will be back in a

14:51

moment. This

14:57

year at Pushkin, we've been

14:59

able to work with some

15:01

of the world's biggest brands

15:03

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15:05

it's a custom episode in

15:08

partnership with a brand or

15:10

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15:12

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16:07

That's linkedin.com/Malcolm, terms and conditions.

16:09

apply. Men at works flute

16:12

maestro Greg Hamm took the

16:14

news of the court case

16:16

hard. I'm terribly disappointed that

16:18

that's the way I'm going

16:20

to be remembered for copying

16:23

something. Greg's flute riff improvised

16:25

at a jam session and

16:27

overlaid on a song written

16:29

before he'd even joined the

16:31

band. was threatening to sink

16:34

men at work. If the

16:36

judge found for larynx music

16:38

publishing, how would they unpick

16:40

30 years of earnings? They'd

16:42

spent that money on houses,

16:45

businesses, invested it for their

16:47

old age. To suddenly hand

16:49

over 60% now would mean

16:51

liquidating their assets, auctioning off

16:53

possessions, and putting their homes

16:56

up for sale. Faced

16:58

with this, and backed by

17:01

his record company, lead singer

17:03

Colin Haye decided to fight.

17:05

He was going to argue

17:08

that Kukabhara hadn't been, to

17:10

use the legal term, substantially

17:13

reproduced in their hit song.

17:15

When I co-wrote Down Under,

17:18

back in 1978, the singer

17:20

said angrily, I appropriated nothing

17:22

from anyone else's song. There

17:25

was no men at work.

17:27

There was no flute, yet

17:30

the song existed. To the

17:32

judge's delight, Colin serenaded the

17:35

court with a version of

17:37

the song to show that

17:39

the flute riff wasn't integral

17:42

to the greater work. But

17:44

Larikin's counterclaim was that Greg

17:47

Hamm had blatantly copied the

17:49

first two bars of Cucabourre.

17:52

Colin replied that if his

17:54

friend had lifted Marian Sinclair's

17:56

melody, it was inadvertent. naive,

17:59

unconscious, and by the time

18:01

men at work had recorded

18:04

the song, it had become

18:06

unrecognizable. Colin's elderly father agreed.

18:08

He'd been a singer himself

18:11

and later owned a music

18:13

shop. So he knew a

18:16

thing or two about songwriting.

18:18

He was incensed, said Colin.

18:21

He was getting older and

18:23

he was getting stressed. Smoke

18:25

would come out of his

18:28

ears. The court case dragged

18:30

on. Hearings, appeals, appeals. expert

18:33

witness after expert witness and

18:35

the ever-mounting legal bills. And

18:38

all the time, the scales

18:40

seem to be tipping in

18:42

favour of Larkin. Stressed and

18:45

exasperated was all too much

18:47

for Colin's father. He died

18:50

in 2010. I do feel

18:52

instinctively it contributed to knocking

18:55

him off his perch. Lament

18:57

at his grieving son. But

18:59

the copyright case hadn't claimed

19:02

its last victim. Racked with

19:04

guilt and worried about losing

19:07

his home, flute player Greg

19:09

Hamm was observed to be

19:11

going downhill. He'd been drinking,

19:14

and according to one friend,

19:16

using heroin. It was said,

19:19

the dispute over down under,

19:21

had undone him. Copyright

19:28

laws exist to protect composers.

19:30

It's very hard to write

19:33

an ode to joy, a

19:35

marriage of figero, or a

19:38

baby shark, but very easy

19:40

to copy them. Copyright gives

19:42

creators some ability to stop

19:45

copycats, and thus an incentive

19:47

to do the creative work

19:49

in the first place. And

19:52

historically, musicians have had a

19:54

very hard time getting paid

19:56

for the tunes they've created.

19:59

Back when there was a

20:01

music hall every few hundred

20:04

yards on the streets of

20:06

Britain. The songs of Joseph

20:08

Tabra were almost certain to

20:11

be wafting out. He was

20:13

credited with over 7,000 compositions,

20:15

though claimed he'd written many

20:18

more. Ting, that's how the

20:20

bell goes. He's sailing on

20:22

the Briny Ocean and, oh

20:25

you little darling, were among

20:27

his hits. But all were

20:29

dwarfed. By the runaway success

20:32

of 1892s, Daddy wouldn't buy

20:34

me a bow wow. Did

20:37

I foresee its popularity? Good

20:39

gracious no, said Tabra. Did

20:41

I make a vast fortune

20:44

out of it? Yes, eight

20:46

pounds and odd shillings. Eight

20:48

pounds would be just a

20:51

few thousand dollars compared to

20:53

the wages of the day.

20:55

That doesn't seem much of

20:58

a return. for creating a

21:00

song that swept the globe.

21:03

It's little wonder then that

21:05

Joseph Tobra was often penniless.

21:07

A situation he described euphemistically

21:10

as being... Imbecuniously embarrassed. The

21:12

stars who sang his popular

21:14

songs got rich. It took

21:17

a cut of ticket sales.

21:19

And publishers got rich selling

21:21

the sheet music. But few

21:24

royalties found their way to

21:26

people. like Joseph Tobra, who

21:29

wrote the songs in the

21:31

first place. Think of a

21:33

catchy refrain, he said of

21:36

his creative process. Think of

21:38

the damn silliest words that

21:40

will rhyme anyhow. Think of

21:43

a haunting pretty melody. And

21:45

there you are. The fortune

21:47

of your publisher is made.

21:51

But around the time that

21:53

Daddy wouldn't buy me a

21:55

bow wow was wowing the

21:57

Victorians, the music publishers were

21:59

starting to see... their profits

22:02

being eaten away too. So-called

22:04

pirates would dash off copies

22:06

of the newest hits on

22:08

cheap paper and employ homeless

22:10

people to sell them on

22:13

the streets for pennies. The

22:15

knockoff sheet music obviously didn't

22:17

include the printer's address and

22:19

the street hawkers had no

22:21

fixed abode. So how could

22:23

legitimate music publishers sue the

22:26

pirates? The musical defence league.

22:28

was formed to push for

22:30

a tightening of the copyright

22:32

laws and stem the hemorrhaging

22:34

of profits. The piracy

22:36

of musical copyright has enormously

22:39

increased, said one of those

22:41

proposing a new law, and

22:44

has now reached such alarming

22:46

proportions that it is having

22:49

a paralyzing effect on the

22:51

legitimate trade in musical works.

22:54

Unless something was done

22:56

threatened the Musical Defense

22:59

League, its members would stop

23:01

publishing new songs all together.

23:03

The composers and publishing houses

23:06

got their way. Over the

23:08

course of a decade, new

23:10

copyright protections came into force,

23:13

regulating sheet music, piano rolls,

23:15

wax cylinders, phonograph records, and

23:18

whatever new technology might come

23:20

next. And the rights and

23:22

royalties of composers were also

23:25

improved. They demand payments for

23:27

their songs for the rest

23:29

of their lives and even

23:32

pass these rights onto their

23:34

heirs upon death. Good news?

23:36

Well, there's a sharp trade-off

23:39

here. If you make copyright

23:41

protections very generous to creators,

23:43

that makes them richer. And

23:46

it might also encourage more

23:48

creative activity, especially of really

23:50

expensive projects such as movies.

23:52

Although Joseph Tobra didn't

23:55

seem to need much incentive to

23:57

churn out the hits. But if

23:59

copy... Right protections are too

24:01

generous to the original creator.

24:04

They limit our ability to

24:06

remix and adapt old ideas,

24:09

or just to enjoy them

24:11

without paying expensive royalties. As

24:14

I say, it's a trade-off.

24:16

The simplest way in which

24:19

the trade-off bites is the

24:21

question, how long should copyright

24:24

protection last? In Australia, like

24:26

many countries, like many countries,

24:29

like many countries, The answer

24:31

is that music copyright lasts

24:34

70 years from the date

24:36

of the composer's death. Kucaburra

24:39

was written in 1932 and

24:41

Marian died in 1988, so

24:44

the copyright lasts until 2058,

24:46

126 years. For a song

24:48

she composed for fun. Remember

24:51

the trade-off. We want to

24:53

give creators a temporary monopoly

24:56

over their work to ensure

24:58

that they actually have an

25:01

incentive to make art. But

25:03

if that monopoly is too

25:06

strict or lasts too long,

25:08

everyone else loses out because

25:11

they can't enjoy or reuse

25:13

the art without paying. So

25:16

what counts as too long?

25:18

I'm speaking here as a

25:21

creative person myself. I benefit

25:23

from copyright. My first book.

25:26

the undercover economist was published

25:28

in 2005 and it's still

25:31

selling. So personally, I'm happy

25:33

that copyright lasts more than

25:36

20 years. But it doesn't

25:38

need to last a century.

25:41

I'd still have written the

25:43

book and it would still

25:46

have been published with 20

25:48

years of copyright protection or

25:51

even with 10. But we

25:53

don't need to be extreme

25:55

about this. Let's say copyright

25:58

should last... 20 years after

26:00

the moment of creation. Or

26:03

30 years. Or 40. That's

26:05

plenty. Cucabaro would still have

26:08

been in the public domain

26:10

from 1972. Almost a decade

26:13

before Down Under hit the

26:15

charts. So why are copyright

26:18

terms so insanely long? Not

26:20

because of the artists themselves.

26:23

Show me the author or

26:25

the composer. lobbying furiously for

26:28

royalties to last until after

26:30

their grandchildren are dead. No,

26:33

it's all about corporate power.

26:35

Large corporations hoover up artist

26:38

rights. These businesses have the

26:40

scale to enforce their ownership,

26:43

taking infringers to court, and

26:45

the clout to lobby governments

26:48

not to reform the copyright

26:50

legislation. The

26:53

implosion of the Beatles upset

26:55

many music fans who couldn't

26:57

quite believe that there'd be

27:00

no more records from the

27:02

Fab Four. Concert promoters began

27:04

to offer huge sums, tens

27:06

and then hundreds of millions

27:09

for a reunion. It became

27:11

a running joke on the

27:13

TV show Saturday Night Live,

27:16

that it would pay $3,000

27:18

for the Beatles to reform.

27:20

Saturday Night Live eventually aired

27:22

a sketch with a Beatles

27:25

parody band, The Rutles, fronted

27:27

by Monty Python's Eric Idol.

27:29

The Rutles performed a raft

27:32

of Beatles-esque tunes. Ouch, instead

27:34

of help. Piggy in the

27:36

middle, in place of I

27:38

am the Walrus. Audiences were

27:41

delighted, and even the real

27:43

Beatles appreciated the comic send-up

27:45

of their work. But this

27:48

blessing. wasn't sufficient to protect

27:50

the ruttles from the lawyers.

27:52

John Lennon advised us that

27:54

we might have trouble with...

27:57

Get up and go, said

27:59

one ruttle, because it sounded

28:01

so much like get back.

28:03

The Beatles had lost the

28:06

publishing rights to their songs

28:08

in the late 60s, and

28:10

the new owner's ATV music

28:13

certainly didn't see the funny

28:15

side of the parody, All

28:17

You Need is Cash. They

28:19

lodged a lawsuit, and fearing

28:22

the cost of fighting it,

28:24

the ruttles surrendered half of

28:26

the royalties, and added the

28:29

names Lennon and McCartney to

28:31

the writing credits. It's brutal,

28:33

said one ruttle. I couldn't

28:35

afford to get a lawyer

28:38

that would go up against

28:40

these big corporations. The band

28:42

obviously wanted to sound like

28:45

the Beatles, but denied directly

28:47

ripping off Lennon and McCartney.

28:54

For centuries, composers have reworked and reinterpreted

28:56

one another's works. Quoting a phrase here,

28:58

a melody there, and the ruttle said

29:00

they were no different. The word ruttle

29:02

is in fact a verb, they explained.

29:04

To ruttle is to copy or emulate

29:07

someone you admire in the music business.

29:09

The Beatles were ruttles. They ruttled Jean

29:11

Vincent and Eddie Cochran. Mozart was a

29:13

ruttle. The ruttles never tested this argument

29:15

before a judge. It was an expensive

29:17

gamble they weren't willing to take. Men

29:19

at work, however, had accepted the substantial

29:21

risk to defend their ruttling of kukaburra,

29:23

and the court was about to hand

29:25

down its final verdict. Cautionary tales will

29:28

resume shortly. We'll resume shortly. We'll resume

29:30

shortly. We'll resume shortly. We'll resume shortly.

29:32

We'll resume shortly. We'll resume. We'll resume.

29:34

We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll

29:36

resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume.

29:38

We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll

29:40

resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume.

29:42

We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll

29:44

resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume.

29:47

We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll

29:49

resume. We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume.

29:51

We'll resume. We'll resume. We'll resume This

29:56

year at Pushkin, we've been able

29:59

to work with some of the

30:01

world's biggest brands on creating bespoke

30:04

content. Whether it's a custom episode

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in partnership with a brand or

30:08

a creative ad campaign, we want

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to be sure that our content

30:13

reaches people. But the ad space

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is incredibly noisy. How do we

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ensure our content reaches? the right

30:20

audience. That's where LinkedIn ads come

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to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/Malcolm.

31:01

Terms and Conditions apply. I've

31:03

argued that copyright lasts too

31:05

long. But the case of

31:07

the ruddles suggests another problem.

31:10

Maybe copyright protection is also

31:12

too broad. Economists sometimes talk

31:14

about the breadth or the

31:17

height of intellectual property protection,

31:19

which in this case means

31:21

how much of cookabower can

31:23

you take? And how radically

31:26

do you have to transform

31:28

it before you're in the

31:30

clear? These are more complicated

31:33

questions than simply asking how

31:35

long copyright should last, which

31:37

was why down under ended

31:40

up in court and why

31:42

the proceedings dragged on for

31:44

so long. And our attitudes

31:46

to copying aren't just a

31:49

matter for the courts. They're

31:51

a matter of culture too.

31:53

And I think we fuss

31:56

too much about copying. Books.

31:58

Books. films and songs can

32:00

be shallow and derivative without

32:02

plagiarizing. While a creative work

32:05

that does contain plagiarism can

32:07

still be deep and original.

32:09

The truth is that there's

32:12

copying and then there's copying.

32:14

I'm a great admirer of

32:16

Malcolm Gladwell's writing. If I

32:18

were to print 10,000 copies

32:21

of his new book, Revenge

32:23

of the Tipping Point. sell

32:25

them and keep the revenue,

32:28

I'd be committing one form

32:30

of intellectual property theft, indirectly

32:32

stealing money from him. If

32:35

instead I printed by Tim

32:37

Harford on the cover, I'd

32:39

be committing a different form

32:41

of mischief, stealing the credit

32:44

as well as the profits.

32:46

Or there's a third thing

32:48

I could do. I could

32:51

add chunks of his writing

32:53

to my own. That seems

32:55

crazy. But stranger things have

32:57

happened. Twenty years ago, a

33:00

Broadway play was attracting praise

33:02

and a Tony nomination for

33:04

its wrenchingly authentic portrayal of

33:07

what makes a murderer. The

33:09

reason for the realism was

33:11

soon revealed. The playwright had

33:13

lifted long, uncredited passages from

33:16

a magazine profile of a

33:18

real psychiatrist who studied killers.

33:20

That profile... was by Malcolm

33:23

Gladwell. The psychiatrist was enraged

33:25

and considering legal action, and

33:27

she enlisted Malcolm to back

33:30

her case. He was initially

33:32

helpful, until he read the

33:34

script for himself. I found

33:36

it breathtaking, he said. Instead

33:39

of feeling that my words

33:41

had been taken from me,

33:43

I felt that they had

33:46

become part of some grander

33:48

cause. Around 675

33:50

of the article's words had

33:52

been taken without Malcolm's permission.

33:54

These words were the result

33:57

of his work and his

33:59

crime. The sentences and paragraphs

34:01

they created, lodging ideas in

34:03

reader's minds, belonged to Malcolm.

34:06

And now, a hit play

34:08

was benefiting from them, without

34:10

crediting or compensating him. A

34:12

saviour writer would have rewritten

34:15

the quotes from me, so

34:17

that their origin was no

34:19

longer recognizable. But how would

34:21

I have been better off

34:24

if she had disguised the

34:26

source of her inspiration? Many

34:28

people were furious on Malcolm's

34:30

behalf. Having originally been faded,

34:33

the playwright was now raked

34:35

over the coals for intellectual

34:37

thievery. It feels absolutely terrible,

34:39

she told Malcolm. I just

34:41

didn't think I was doing

34:44

the wrong thing. And Malcolm

34:46

wasn't so sure she had.

34:48

The furora over the play

34:50

had given him a chance

34:53

to think about where his

34:55

own ideas had come from.

34:57

from the books and articles

34:59

he'd read, speeches he'd heard,

35:02

films he'd seen. Malcolm admitted

35:04

that some of his phrasing

35:06

used in the play was

35:08

pretty similar to works already

35:11

in existence. One formation of

35:13

words sounded very close to

35:15

something Gandy had once said.

35:17

The dishonesty of the plagiarism

35:20

fundamentalists is to encourage us

35:22

to pretend that these chains

35:24

of influence and evolution do

35:26

not exist, and that our

35:29

writers' words... have a virgin

35:31

birth and an internal life.

35:33

Sadly, many of the current

35:35

copyright laws conform to the

35:37

thinking of these plagiarism fundamentalists.

35:40

And it was to these

35:42

standards that men at works

35:44

down under was being judged.

35:46

It's a big win for

35:49

the underdog, said a lawyer

35:51

when the judgment was finally

35:53

read. He was acting on

35:55

behalf. of Norm Lurie and

35:58

Larican music. Men at work

36:00

had... lost. Be it intentional

36:02

or subconscious, Greg Hamm's flute

36:04

riff was an infringement of

36:07

Larkin's ownership of Cucaboura, and

36:09

the firm was owed damages.

36:11

Of course it would be

36:13

disingenuous for me to say

36:16

that there wasn't a financial

36:18

aspect involved, said a delighted

36:20

norm-lury, but you could just

36:22

as easily say what has

36:24

won out is the importance

36:27

of checking. before using other

36:29

people's copyrights. One person who

36:31

could think of little else

36:33

in the wake of the

36:36

ruling was the flute player

36:38

Greg Hamm. He felt crushing

36:40

guilt that he'd landed his

36:42

bandmates in a five-year legal

36:45

battle and tried to blot

36:47

it out with drink and

36:49

drugs. Having sold his long-time

36:51

home, he'd downsize to help

36:54

settle the bills. It was

36:56

in this more modest apartment

36:58

that Greg was found dead.

37:00

He'd suffered a heart attack

37:03

and Men at Work's lead

37:05

singer Colin Haye angrily blamed

37:07

the stress of the court

37:09

case. It's people you love

37:11

who you're losing over litigation

37:14

based on greed and opportunism.

37:21

So what did Norm Lurie

37:23

and Larkin make from suing

37:25

men at work? They'd wanted

37:28

60% of all the profits

37:30

from down under. And the

37:32

judge gave them 5% and

37:35

then only on money earned

37:37

since 2002, not all the

37:40

way back to men at

37:42

work's 1980s heyday. It was

37:44

deemed that a greater share

37:47

would have been excessive, overreaching,

37:49

overreaching, overreaching, overreaching, overreaching. and

37:51

unrealistic. Under copyright law, Larikin's

37:54

claim of infringement had cleared

37:56

the legal bar to win

37:59

the case. But the

38:01

judges spoke of their disquiet

38:03

at having to find against

38:06

men at work. The modest

38:08

damages awarded to Larykin were

38:10

perhaps a warning to vexatious

38:13

litigants that they should find

38:15

a more amicable alternative to

38:17

launching legal action. It's thought

38:19

this 5% settlement amounted to

38:22

only around $100,000. Both sides

38:24

had spent millions in legal

38:26

fees. So while men at

38:29

work had lost the case,

38:31

there were really no winners,

38:33

aside from the lawyers. If

38:36

we don't like that result,

38:38

maybe we should think about

38:40

writing a more sensible copyright

38:43

law. But there is one

38:45

final surprising casualty in this

38:47

Sorry Tale. As one of

38:49

Australia's most beloved pop stars,

38:52

Colin Hay had been a

38:54

guest on the quiz on

38:56

the quiz. Spixen Spex. He

38:59

and the host Adam Hills

39:01

had become friends. We were

39:03

actually quite close, said Hills.

39:06

We even house sat for

39:08

the singer. When Spixen Spex

39:10

sparked the devastating legal dispute,

39:13

some men-at-work fans held Hills

39:15

directly responsible. I got a

39:17

lot of pretty abusive stuff

39:19

on Facebook, the TV star

39:22

admits. It's such a weird

39:24

thing to have happened. that

39:26

a throwaway question on a

39:29

music quiz show leads to

39:31

a court case. It's such

39:33

an iconic beloved Australian song,

39:36

but I'll never hear it,

39:38

without knowing that I've got

39:40

this awful connection to it.

39:43

But it's the impact on

39:45

his relationship with Men at

39:47

Work's Singer that most upsets

39:50

Adam Hills. I haven't spoken

39:52

to Colin for ages. It

39:54

all got weird between us.

39:57

exhausted and imbittered by the

40:00

whole affair, Colin Hay found

40:02

performing down under on stage,

40:05

an increasingly harrowing and depressing

40:07

experience. He'd launch into the

40:09

hit and immediately be transported

40:12

back to the court case.

40:14

That is, until one evening,

40:17

playing to a crowd of

40:19

25,000 people, all dancing and

40:22

gleefully singing along, Colin had

40:24

an epiphany. Looking out across

40:26

the audience, he suddenly thought,

40:29

they can't touch this. Tim

40:31

harford.com. cautionary tales is written

40:34

by me Tim Harford with

40:36

Andrew Wright, Alice Fiennes and

40:39

Ryan Dilly. It's produced by

40:41

Alice Fiennes and Ryan Dilly.

40:44

It's produced by Alice Fiennes

40:46

and Marilyn Rust. The sound

40:48

design and original music are

40:51

the work of Pascal Wise.

40:53

Additional sound design is by

40:56

Carlos San Juan at Brain

40:58

Audio. Ben Nadaf Hafri edited

41:01

the scripts. The show features

41:03

the voice talents of Melanie

41:05

Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough,

41:08

Sarah Jop, Masayam and Ro,

41:10

Jamal Westman and Rufouswright. The

41:13

show also wouldn't have been

41:15

possible without the work of

41:18

Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohn, Saranix,

41:20

Eric Sandler, Carrie Brodi, Christina

41:22

Sullivan, Kieropose and Owen Miller.

41:25

Corsumie Tales is a production

41:27

of pushkin industries. It's recorded.

41:30

at Studios in

41:32

London by by

41:35

Tom Barry. If you like

41:37

you like

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the show, please

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remember to share,

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41:47

review. It

41:49

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