0:08

A little over a decade ago, Nick

0:10

Wallace was working as a journalist at

0:12

BBC Suri in the Southeast

0:15

of

0:15

England. It's accounting

0:17

news radio station. I

0:19

had been appointed as the breakfast

0:21

show presenter, and I've been there for

0:23

just over a year, and I was kind of

0:26

still really getting my my feet under the

0:27

table, dealing with lots of local

0:30

news stories. One morning, Nick

0:32

was scrolling through the BBC series

0:34

Twitter feed when something caught his

0:36

eye. I got

0:38

a tweet which was quite intriguing and

0:41

I followed it up with a DM and

0:43

it eventually led to a phone call

0:45

with Amani told me that his pregnant wife

0:47

had been thrown in prison for a crime she didn't

0:49

commit, which was not

0:52

the usual sort of story we got at BBC.

0:54

Sorry. This man said

0:56

his wife had worked at their local post

0:58

office for over three years. And

1:00

then one day out of the blue, she was

1:03

fired for allegations of death. She'd

1:06

been accused of stealing seventy four

1:08

thousand pounds, so I went along to

1:10

see him just to have a a more of

1:12

an in-depth chat and record an interview

1:14

with him. And his

1:16

story was compelling. I mean, I

1:18

hadn't got the resources to check it out, but

1:20

he seemed to be legit. They

1:22

agreed to keep in touch. And Nick

1:24

went back to

1:25

work. I went back to my boss and I said,

1:27

look, I think there might be something here.

1:30

Nick started researching. It turns

1:32

out, it wasn't just a one off.

1:35

There were dozens of other people online

1:37

who had similar claims. They

1:39

had all said they'd work for the British post

1:41

office, were accused of theft

1:43

and facing criminal

1:44

charges, and it wasn't long before I was talking

1:46

to them. And it seemed as if

1:48

this

1:49

problem wasn't just limited to Surrey,

1:51

but was happening all over the country.

1:53

By now, Nick had enough material

1:55

to run story And a couple months

1:57

later, I've fronted a program which went

1:59

out on our radio station and

2:01

on local television, which had brought

2:03

to light three case studies including

2:06

the person who initially contacted

2:07

me, all saying that they had either been

2:10

sacked, suspended, or prosecuted,

2:13

for crimes they didn't commit.

2:15

And after Nick's first report went out,

2:17

even more people who had previously worked

2:19

for the National Post Office came forward.

2:22

Saying the same thing was happening to

2:24

them too. And I thought, well,

2:26

if this story doesn't get

2:28

out

2:29

properly, more and more people are going

2:31

to be criminalized. And there's

2:33

clearly something going on here. I'm

2:35

also slain, and this is cheap.

2:38

The podcast where we asked Is it

2:40

ever okay to break the rules? This

2:42

week, what happens when the government

2:45

turns on its employees?

2:51

The following message comes from Lucasfilm

2:53

and Disney plus presenting an

2:56

all new season of the

2:57

Mandalorian, The global phenomenon

3:00

returns and is streaming this

3:02

Wednesday. Witness the Mandalorian

3:04

as he explores the galaxy crossing

3:07

paths with old allies and new enemies

3:09

with the foundling Groku at his

3:11

side. The new season of the Mandalorian

3:14

is streaming this Wednesday only

3:16

on Disney plus

3:24

In nineteen ninety nine, Nikki Arch

3:26

lived in Charlesford Hill. It's a small

3:28

community in Gloucestershire in the Southwest

3:30

of

3:30

England. It's a kind of place where

3:33

Everyone knows everyone. It

3:35

really is a tiny village in

3:37

the middle of nowhere and the

3:40

post office in shop was basically

3:42

the only communal place.

3:45

There was four villagers to

3:47

get together, chat, and

3:50

see each other on regular basis as well

3:52

as getting their business sorted out.

3:55

The British postal system is similar to the

3:57

one in America. It's a government owned

3:59

public service. But a key difference

4:01

here is that people who run individual

4:04

post offices or branches are self

4:06

employed, and they're called post master.

4:08

Nikki was the postmaster in her village.

4:11

People come in to get at

4:14

that time or their benefit

4:16

payments pay all their bills,

4:18

telephone bills, housing

4:22

costs, child

4:24

benefit and such like So

4:26

in the community, we get to

4:29

see mostly all, if

4:31

not all, the pensioners within

4:33

that community on a weekly basis. Which

4:36

enables them get together, have a chart,

4:38

make sure everybody's alright, obviously

4:41

spread community news.

4:45

All the transactions Nicky handled were

4:47

done by pen and paper, which,

4:49

as you can imagine, could get complicated.

4:53

So you get cash

4:55

delivered into the post office, which

4:58

is cash you're gonna pay out to customers,

5:00

whether it be through benefits, or

5:03

banking facilities, foreign

5:06

currency, all those things. That cash,

5:08

we never took in as much cash

5:10

as we need

5:11

it. So Nikki would make huge spreadsheet

5:14

and keep a tab of how much money was coming

5:16

out of the post office to

5:17

customers. The two should balance

5:19

at the end of the week, so let's simplify.

5:21

If you started off with, say,

5:24

a hundred pounds and you paid out

5:26

fifty pounds of

5:27

that, then your balance should

5:29

sit at fifty pounds that's left.

5:31

On a weekly basis, Nikki was handling

5:34

thousands and thousands of pounds, scribbling

5:36

down everything that happened. We

5:39

were still doing things in a very, very

5:41

old fashioned way, which was very

5:43

time consuming. Then

5:46

a year into the job, The post office

5:48

announced that they'd be bringing in a new IT

5:50

system called Horizon.

5:53

The computer idea was

5:55

that was that would automatically give

5:57

you those figures of how much stocking

5:59

cash you've got in

6:00

branch, how much you've paid out, and

6:02

how much you've you've taken in. In

6:06

the early two thousands, big businesses

6:08

around the world were rushing head first into

6:10

a new digital way of

6:11

working. And the post office was

6:13

no different. And Nikki was excited.

6:16

I totally it

6:18

it agreed fully with the post office

6:20

in and embrace the idea and

6:23

was thrilled to do it. I was only in my

6:25

twenties and I'd started doing

6:28

computer courses privately in

6:31

the evenings myself to get my

6:33

knowledge up to

6:33

date. The

6:34

post office branch that Nicky ran was

6:36

one of the first to have Horizon installed.

6:39

The engineer turned up with the equipment

6:42

and he unboxed it sort

6:45

of find space for it because they were

6:47

tiny little booths, these post

6:49

offices, where mine was. And

6:51

then the trainer who turned

6:54

up with him, switched to all

6:56

on and said, right, we'll serve

6:58

the customers and I'll show you as we

7:00

go.

7:01

What to do. The trainers spent

7:03

a few hours with Nikki, gave her a

7:05

user guide, and then they

7:07

were

7:08

gone. It

7:10

was a little bit frustrating because I was

7:12

a bit, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're going

7:14

already. But

7:17

I thought, well, you know, it's only computers

7:20

not that much could go wrong as I

7:22

thought.

7:23

But it didn't take long before things

7:25

did go wrong. The IT system

7:27

was showing that her balance was way off.

7:30

Just a week into Horizon being set up,

7:33

it said that two thousand pounds was missing

7:35

from Nikki's post office branch. And

7:38

so I thought, well, that's that's

7:40

strange.

7:42

Nikki called the post office helpline. And

7:44

I said, what do I do? know, the pensions

7:47

and allowances are saying I've paid two thousand

7:49

pounds out more than I have. What

7:52

should I do? And

7:55

she said, well, are you sure the

7:57

money isn't there? And

7:59

I said, well, what money? I said,

8:01

there is no money.

8:03

Additional money because the calculation is

8:05

wrong. The helpline reminded

8:07

Nikki that this was a brand new system.

8:10

She had to be patient and it would work itself

8:12

out. But that didn't

8:14

happen. The next week it doubled.

8:17

Now Horizon was saying that four thousand

8:19

pounds was missing from Nikki's post office

8:21

branch.

8:23

The third week it doubled to eight.

8:25

The fourth week it doubled to sixteen.

8:28

The fifth week it doubled to

8:30

thirty two. By then,

8:33

was frantic. Every

8:35

week, Nikki called the post office helpline.

8:38

And every week, someone told

8:40

her that It was nothing to worry

8:42

about. I suppose I became

8:45

I don't remember disengaged is a word,

8:47

but I didn't see it as anything to do

8:49

with me. I I saw it, I

8:51

literally asked computer error as

8:54

something was going on completely out of my

8:56

control. What they knew all

8:58

about it, it was the ported

9:00

evidence every week. Then

9:03

in November of two thousand, three

9:05

auditors showed up at Nikki's post office.

9:09

They were almost like the teachers

9:11

come into check on us if you like.

9:13

They were still really useful to have

9:15

around and really helpful

9:18

Nikki wasn't worried. She didn't have anything

9:20

to hide. And we were

9:22

having a chat, having coffee, talking

9:25

about random things, not

9:28

a problem. I'd put a sign on the door to say

9:30

order in progress. We will be open

9:32

for businesses

9:33

as soon as possible support. But

9:35

then, the tone chain. One

9:38

of the auditors told Nikki that they had

9:40

to ask her some more questions, and she

9:42

needed to come with them to the main post office

9:44

in town. And

9:48

we walked through the main office.

9:52

And it felt a bit atmospheric. I

9:54

have to say, I thought, oh, god, you know, I felt like

9:56

people were looking at me to see what's going

9:58

on, you know, like the people who worked in

10:00

the office. Nikki was led to

10:02

a small room at the back of the office. And

10:05

then the door

10:06

lock. Shit.

10:11

And that sort of made me feel bit uncomfortable,

10:13

but but it was what it was.

10:15

And then she said, I hope you don't mind, but I'm

10:17

going to record this conversation.

10:21

And I said, well, what do you want to record it for?

10:24

And then the man said, I he

10:26

said, I don't think

10:28

you actually realize the amount

10:31

of trouble you are in.

10:33

And Nikki was in trouble. She was

10:35

accused of taking the thirty two thousand pounds

10:37

that was missing from her post office

10:39

branch. I felt like

10:42

how have they tricked me into

10:44

being locked in this room

10:47

having a recorded conversation being

10:50

accused of stealing

10:53

in effect. Yet,

10:55

five minutes ago, they'd shared coffee,

10:57

they'd shared biscuits, had long chats for

10:59

about two hours in

11:01

brunch. And then all of a sudden,

11:04

they become my enemies. It

11:06

didn't make any sense. First of

11:08

all, if you're gonna accuse me

11:10

of stealing, no have coffee and biscuits

11:13

with me. And Nikki had been reporting

11:15

that there was problems for weeks. And

11:18

now, she was right in the firing

11:20

line.

11:21

I set you know, I've never

11:23

done anything untoward like that

11:25

ever.

11:26

Well, I think you're just wasting everybody's

11:28

time because we know you've taken

11:30

the money.

11:31

Nikki was kept in that room and questioned

11:34

for another three hours. And I

11:36

was twenty four years old and

11:38

it felt like I'd been hit by an Arctic

11:40

Laurie. I thought I I cannot

11:42

believe I've come to work.

11:46

You know, happy happy with life,

11:48

just a normal day's work, opening

11:50

my little shop, yeah, it wasn't a big shot,

11:53

but it was a steady little

11:55

business that I wanted to grow and it

11:57

was mine. And I thought my god

11:59

in a map of ours, everything

12:02

had had

12:03

changed. Nikki

12:05

was forced to give one

12:06

of the auditors the keys to the post office.

12:09

You said, I'm not giving you the keys back

12:12

to that business, and I can promise

12:14

you you will never step foot in it again.

12:17

What do you mean? I'm never stepping

12:19

foot in there again. What's

12:21

going on? Well, that's

12:24

coming up after the break.

12:33

The war on drugs is the excuse our

12:35

government uses to get away with absolutely

12:38

insane

12:38

stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off. The cops

12:40

aren't they just like looting? I

12:42

think just like pillaging. They just have way

12:44

better names for what they call, like, what

12:47

we would call a Jack move or

12:49

being

12:49

robbed. He

12:51

calls civil asset for. Be

12:56

sure to listen to the war on drugs on the

12:58

iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

13:00

or wherever you get your podcast.

13:05

The groundbreaking series is streaming Wednesday

13:07

exclusively on Disney Plus. You have

13:09

removed your helmet. You

13:11

are a Mandalorian. No more.

13:15

I'm going to Mandalorian. There's

13:17

nothing left.

13:19

Alright, kids. Ready for an adventure?

13:22

May, of course, be with you.

13:25

Don't miss. This is the way the epic

13:27

return of. The Mandalorian

13:30

season three streaming Wednesday only

13:33

on Disney plus.

13:38

After that day in Nikki's main post office,

13:41

life in her small village completely changed.

13:44

I couldn't get another job because it was in

13:46

the papers that I was the woman who stole

13:49

from pensioners. So I

13:50

thought, oh my god, what am I gonna do? In

13:52

January of two thousand one, Nicki

13:54

was fired from the post office. The

13:56

local newspaper covered the accusations in

13:59

an article called Woman

14:01

Steel's Cash off of pensioners.

14:03

And every time I went in the shop,

14:06

it was almost like the whole supermarket went

14:08

silent. That's what it felt

14:10

like to me. I thought, my god, everyone's looked

14:12

at me. They're thinking I've stole a stole life

14:15

of elderly

14:15

people. The image that everyone

14:17

had of Nikki as the friendly postmaster?

14:21

Well, that was gone.

14:24

One day I left and two women

14:26

were stood outside and they spat at

14:28

me and it was all hanging from

14:30

my hair

14:32

and I thought I I cannot do this anymore.

14:35

I I'm not doing this anymore.

14:38

It got really bad. And over

14:40

time, Nikki's world got smaller.

14:42

In smaller. I

14:44

just shut myself indoors. Meanwhile,

14:48

I'd gone to the doctors. She prescribed me

14:50

some anti presence, very

14:52

supportive doctor, and I know if it wasn't

14:54

for her, I wouldn't be life. I can

14:56

guarantee

14:57

it. But then it was time to

14:59

go through the legal process. After

15:02

all of that, Nikki's case went

15:04

to trial in two thousand two, and

15:07

the charges of theft and fraud were dropped

15:09

because of lack of evidence.

15:11

The jury caught up with the unanimous verdict

15:13

of not guilty, and

15:16

the judge that then turned around to

15:17

said, right, missus Arch, you're free to go.

15:20

Nikki had been found innocent, but

15:22

in a lot of ways, the damage had already

15:24

been done. The post office

15:26

escuttled away. The

15:28

business is gone. I

15:31

have nothing, but

15:33

I'm innocent. So

15:35

what do I do now. And

15:38

and so the following day was a bit of an anticlimax.

15:41

If you know what I mean, you you You know, I

15:43

thought, oh my god, what what do I do?

15:45

What do I rebuild from this?

15:48

She decided her first step would be to call

15:50

the local newspaper. The same

15:52

people who wrote an article about her charges.

15:55

And so I've said, look, none

15:57

of you covered my court case yesterday.

16:00

I was proven innocent you put in

16:02

the papers eighteen months

16:05

ago that I've been seeing off a pensioners.

16:07

What have you got to say? Oh,

16:10

oh, well. Oh, well, well, please

16:12

please view that. I said, no, no, that's

16:15

not good enough.

16:17

I said, you know, I want you to put in the papers

16:19

now that I've actually been

16:21

proven innocent. But

16:26

no one ever did write a follow-up article

16:28

about Nikki. And she didn't feel

16:30

like things in the village would ever be the same

16:32

again for

16:33

her. She sat down with her husband

16:35

and they went through their options. We

16:37

discussed it and I said, let's move. Let's

16:40

try and start again somewhere else. That's

16:42

all we can do. Nikki and her

16:44

partner sold their house and moved to a different

16:46

town fifteen miles away. I'd

16:49

never been in any trouble like

16:51

that. No criminal records, no nothing ever

16:53

in my

16:54

life. And I managed to get a job

16:57

in social services with the local council.

17:00

Nicky began a new life working as a carer

17:02

and assisted living. It was the

17:04

fresh start she

17:05

needed. In two thousand five,

17:07

Nikki and her husband had a baby boy.

17:10

And that give me the will to think, no, let's

17:12

build. Let's try and do something. Let's

17:14

try and be something. Let's try and

17:16

make the best of what we've

17:18

got, and I have got this little bundle of

17:20

blessing.

17:21

But it wasn't easy to forget what

17:23

happened and forget about what she lost

17:25

at the post office. I'd always

17:28

wondered what I could have been or

17:30

what could have ever evolved from that

17:32

business because I loved the

17:34

job. So there was still

17:36

regret there, you know. And this is

17:38

all done to this happening. From that

17:41

day, it changed

17:43

me forever. And I will never

17:45

ever go back to that same person I

17:47

was, the bubbly twenty four year old before

17:50

any of this. When the horizon

17:52

system was brought in, post masters

17:54

around the UK like Nikki had problems

17:56

with it from the

17:57

beginning. And the post office

18:00

at first where it was incomplete denial

18:02

that it had a problem. That's journalist

18:04

Nick Wallace again. During this time,

18:06

he was keeping a close eye on what was happening.

18:09

The consequences for catastrophic because the

18:11

post office would say, well, you've got a ten thousand pound

18:13

hole in your account, so you need to make that good.

18:16

And these are small business owners. They didn't have

18:18

ten thousand pounds lying around. I mean,

18:21

who has ten thousand pounds just lying

18:23

around? And even if they did,

18:25

Why is it their responsibility to fix

18:27

a faulty system? Throughout the

18:29

two

18:29

thousands, individual post masters

18:32

up and down the country were facing charges

18:34

of theft

18:35

and fraud. For the first

18:37

decade of Horizon's existence, you

18:40

had situation whereby postmasters were

18:42

being prosecuted and convicted through

18:44

the criminal courts by post office

18:47

solicitors at a rate of one a week,

18:49

on average. One conviction

18:52

a week. That means by two

18:54

thousand nine, the number of sub post

18:56

masters being convicted have reached

18:58

five hundred and twenty five. There

19:00

can't be five hundred and twenty five crooked

19:02

post

19:03

masters. And I'm sure by now,

19:05

you're probably thinking How

19:07

on Earth was the British post office

19:09

managing to have so many people

19:11

arrested at such a fast pace?

19:14

The Post Office has

19:17

the oldest recognized investigative

19:20

unit in the world. It predates

19:23

the police. It also has

19:25

a criminal prosecution department,

19:28

and it could bring private prosecutions against

19:30

sub postmasters. So if you

19:32

or I were accused of committing

19:34

a crime, first of all, the police would

19:36

investigate, then they would

19:39

see whether or not there was a case to answer, and they

19:41

would hand that over to the criminal prosecution

19:43

service who would then make decision as to whether or not

19:45

to prosecute. Which means that there are two

19:48

independent bodies who

19:50

have checks and balances in place between

19:53

the victim. And the courts.

19:55

But that wasn't the case here. The

19:58

post office was the alleged victim,

20:01

IE, It alleged that its sub post masters

20:03

were stealing from

20:04

it. It had its own investigators and

20:06

it had its own prosecutors. So

20:09

it was able and there's a huge

20:11

conflict of interest here to take individual

20:13

sub postmasters straight to the criminal courts

20:16

without any of the checks and balances that would normally

20:18

be in place through the police and through the crown

20:20

prosecution service in any other walk

20:23

of life. This was a total

20:25

shock to the postmasters who'd

20:27

been operating their branches for years

20:29

without any problem.

20:31

By two thousand and eight, two thousand and

20:33

nine, there were enough sub postmasters, diligent,

20:36

hardworking, intelligent people who were

20:38

saying I've been dragged through the criminal

20:40

courts. For something that I

20:42

haven't done, there is clearly nothing wrong

20:44

with the way that I go about my

20:46

accounting. I'm a diligent person. There

20:48

must be something wrong with the IT system. Meanwhile,

20:51

Nikki Arch was trying to rebuild her life

20:53

in a new town with a small child. Then

20:56

in two thousand eleven, Nikki's

20:59

buddy from back in Charlesford Hill came

21:01

to

21:01

visit. He has some news.

21:04

A friend of mine had seen an article

21:06

in the newspaper saying

21:08

that there was this group

21:11

of people who had prosecutions put

21:14

against them regarding the post

21:16

office computer system, and he brought it to

21:18

my house one night Look, I

21:20

think there's more than you.

21:22

I think, you know, summit's going

21:24

on here. This this is strange.

21:27

The article was talking about a group

21:29

called The Justice for Sub Postmaster's Alliance

21:32

or the JFSA.

21:34

I thought God have I got the strength to

21:37

to go there again? Do I really wanna

21:40

dredge this

21:40

up? But I thought I've got two. I've

21:42

got to because these people were innocent. Nikki

21:45

went online and found the JFSA

21:48

website. It was full of testimonies

21:50

that fell all too familiar.

21:53

They were told it was just them, you

21:56

know, and it couldn't possibly be

21:58

the compute system are relevant

22:00

to their past records of employment,

22:02

of work with them, of, again, please check

22:04

by them. Not everyone had been acquitted

22:07

like Nikki. She discovered that

22:09

hundreds of members of the JFSA were

22:12

facing jail time.

22:14

It was just diabolical. You

22:16

you listened to it and it could have been

22:18

you. You know, you listened to it and think, god, that that

22:20

actually she could be talking about me right

22:23

now. And other than

22:25

go into prison, everything

22:27

else losing your business, your reputation,

22:29

your health, everything is exactly

22:32

the same.

22:34

It felt like Nikki was watching a national

22:36

scandal unraveled before her eyes,

22:39

a scandal that was being hidden

22:41

from the public. That's after

22:43

the break.

22:54

Bed time is rough. Even

22:56

for peanut, that's why people will try

22:58

anything to fall asleep. Head stands

23:00

before bed, even blowing bubbles.

23:03

Bud actually has a trick that works every

23:05

time, a new Tempur Pedic mattress.

23:08

It adapts to your body's needs to help you fall

23:10

asleep faster and stay asleep longer.

23:12

You'll wake up feeling refreshed every

23:14

day. Even peanut degrees.

23:17

So ditched the wacky bedtime rituals. Head

23:19

to Ashley to take home a Tempur Pedic

23:21

today. Are

23:24

you looking for some good clean

23:27

positivity? Good. Me neither.

23:29

I'm Maddie Murphy, and I host the Bad

23:31

Podcast, a weekly comedy podcast.

23:34

Dedicated to talking about everything

23:36

we'd love to hate. I searched my

23:38

whole life to find my passion. Little

23:40

did I know I had been practicing my true

23:42

talent every single day. Complaining.

23:45

Join me every Monday wherever you listen to

23:47

podcasts and be sure to follow me on Instagram

23:49

at the bad broadcast. To answer our weekly

23:51

questions and for a chance to be featured on

23:53

the show. See you there.

24:05

The justice for sub postmaster's alliance

24:07

was growing in numbers, but out side,

24:09

support was limited. More and more

24:11

case studies were coming up all the time, and

24:14

there was sporadic media

24:15

interest, but very very little.

24:18

For people outside of the JFSA, you

24:20

probably wouldn't care or know

24:22

what was going on. I

24:24

kept coming back to the idea that Either

24:27

all these people are lying or grievously

24:29

mistaken. Always sitting

24:31

on one of the biggest miscarriages of justice this

24:33

country has ever seen, and yet the media traction

24:36

was minimal. And I couldn't

24:38

understand why. The post office

24:40

were brilliant at squashing the story. They used

24:42

to just go around to editors, newspaper editors,

24:44

and say, look, there's no evidence that you you when your

24:46

journalists are barking up the wrong

24:47

there's absolutely no evidence. There's anything wrong with our

24:50

systems or our IT system. It

24:53

was only in twenty thirteen that the post

24:55

office agreed to commission an independent

24:57

investigation to look into the horizon

24:59

system.

25:00

I think that the post office's

25:03

attitude was we will

25:05

undertake an independent investigation

25:08

for the comfort of others. It would prove

25:10

what we already know, which is that there's

25:12

nothing wrong with our IT system and there's nothing

25:14

wrong with our business processes.

25:16

But if you're the one convicted, I'd

25:19

imagine you'd be thinking, you can

25:21

keep your comfort. Let's get on with

25:23

this investigation. When

25:25

they did, they found multiple

25:27

issues.

25:28

All was not well with the IT system.

25:31

All was not well with the way that people were trained

25:33

on it, all was not well with the way the post office

25:35

went about prosecuting and investigating sub

25:37

post

25:37

masters. In fact, they they basically opened a lid

25:39

on a can of worms. And even though

25:42

the post office had paid for a second opinion

25:44

by an independent company, they

25:46

said, no. We appreciate

25:48

it, but We're gonna stick to our own

25:51

story and deny that there was anything

25:53

fundamentally wrong with our Horizon IT

25:55

system. When those

25:57

investigators said, actually, you've

25:59

got serious problems. The post office

26:01

went out of its way to discredit those investigators

26:04

and cover the investigation up. In

26:08

twenty fifteen, the post office stopped

26:10

accusing individual post masters of

26:12

theft and fraud. But refused

26:15

to acknowledge why or that it

26:17

had anything to do with the

26:18

investigation. And this

26:20

silence went on for another

26:22

six years. It

26:24

was insane. You you had

26:27

witnesses. You had people from

26:30

all walks of life who had become postmasters

26:32

living in all different parts of the country, all telling

26:34

the same story, saying how

26:36

that they'd come across these anomalies

26:38

in their accounts, which they couldn't explain and were

26:40

being blamed for them. And the post office was

26:43

essentially insinuating that these were

26:45

all people jumping on bandwagon who'd been caught

26:47

with their hands in the

26:48

chill. And we're now trying to pull the wall over

26:50

their MPs and journalists size. It

26:52

felt like these postmasters were

26:54

never gonna find justice, and

26:56

the years were just passing by.

26:59

But sometimes when you're not

27:01

willing to back down, it can

27:03

pay off. The

27:06

JFSA had been busy trying to

27:08

find law firms to help them sue the post

27:10

office, but it wasn't easy.

27:13

They needed funding. Or something

27:15

called an after the event insurance policy.

27:18

They will say to you right. We will pay

27:20

your legal fees to get this

27:23

to avert it. That's Nikki

27:25

Arch again. Now if

27:27

we lose how much it cost

27:29

us in legal fees, is how much

27:32

we lose. If we win,

27:34

we will take a percentage of

27:37

what you win. And

27:39

that is all set out before the case

27:41

even starts if they're prepared to

27:43

invest. None of the members of

27:45

the JFSA could afford any

27:48

legal representation at

27:50

all. In this case,

27:52

the opponent was the post office, one

27:54

of the largest most powerful and trusted

27:56

British institutions. And this

27:58

was a group of people who had lost everything

28:01

and had criminal records.

28:03

The invest just saw it as you're

28:06

going through to the biggest company

28:08

in country, the government. Why on earth

28:10

would you go against them? What

28:13

chance have you got of winning that

28:15

case?

28:16

Well, in twenty seventeen, a national

28:19

law firm called Fries took the chance.

28:22

They agreed to take the JFA's case

28:24

through a group litigation order.

28:26

The more people in a group you have

28:29

more often than not the investors see

28:33

you as a force

28:35

to be reckoned with, so to speak. Although

28:37

we were going against the government, which

28:40

in itself sounds ridiculous. But

28:42

there was over five hundred of

28:45

us and a

28:47

group litigation gives you. It

28:49

gives you almost a bit

28:51

more wallet than if you were stood on your

28:53

own. If it was one person against an

28:55

organization of that size, they'd

28:57

eat you up. By

29:01

this point, the JFSA had

29:03

close to six hundred members. Five

29:06

hundred and fifty five claimants were represented

29:08

in

29:08

court. The case went to the high court

29:10

of justice in London. They try

29:12

only the most serious civil cases.

29:15

Nicki made the trip down.

29:17

I wanted the barrister, the judges,

29:19

everyone to see that we actually

29:22

exist where real people

29:25

and if none of us had turned up,

29:27

I think that would have let them off the

29:29

hook. I thought, no.

29:31

We aren't much, but we matter.

29:34

Right on Nikki, she was so dedicated.

29:37

She made the long trip to London whenever

29:39

she could.

29:40

You know, we've got to see it through to the end.

29:42

Whatever the end outcome is, we need

29:44

to see it through the end. Days

29:46

turned into weeks. Weeks turned into

29:48

months. And it's not unusual for

29:50

a case decides to go on for years.

29:53

But then, In twenty nineteen, the

29:55

court came to a decision.

29:57

National news stations like Channel four

29:59

waited outside to hear the verdict. They

30:01

entered the court as criminals, but

30:03

walkout as innocent people.

30:10

Hello. Kuberdala anymore. I've

30:13

got my life money. The

30:16

post office agreed to settle. Paying

30:18

almost fifty eight million pounds in damages.

30:21

I thought, no. You're no better than me.

30:23

You're you're no better than me. You're no more

30:25

important than me. And and

30:27

so it give me a little bit of equality,

30:32

you know, instead of the bully tactics.

30:36

Nikki Arch received eight thousand pounds

30:38

in compensation. And

30:40

I'm sure you're thinking what I'm thinking and

30:42

so was

30:43

she. Eight thousand

30:45

pounds wasn't good enough. They

30:49

totally ripped my life apart and

30:52

everybody who was in my life at the

30:54

time and my future

30:56

as well, and

30:59

and give me eight thousand pound and walked

31:01

away. And I meant to

31:03

celebrate what victory that is.

31:05

No. No is right.

31:08

Nick Wallace was there the day the verdict was

31:10

announced. December twenty nineteen

31:12

was

31:12

pivotal, and it opened the door

31:14

for further compensation schemes and all

31:17

the washings of the convictions that had

31:19

been building up over the twenty

31:21

year period in the campaign. After

31:23

the high court ruling, Even more cases

31:25

were brought forward. I think anyone who's

31:28

got anything to do with this scandal will look

31:30

back and say, well, that was the point at

31:32

which the post office's position

31:34

became untenable. A

31:37

separate protocol was set up to investigate

31:39

every conviction that came from the post office.

31:41

The post office have finally

31:43

recognized that they have an

31:45

obligation to every

31:48

person who is erroniously prosecuted

31:50

to find them, explain to them

31:53

what has gone wrong. So slowly,

31:55

people got getting their convictions crossed we've had

31:57

eighty three convictions crushed to

31:59

date. There will be

31:59

many more to come. But

32:01

because of the way this has all been handled, it's

32:04

hard to know just how long this will take.

32:07

The problem is many of these people

32:09

could be dead, many of these people may have

32:11

left the country, many will be

32:13

traumatized. By the experience. And when

32:15

they see a letter from the post office come through their

32:17

door, the last thing they are going to do is open

32:19

it. And even if they do, they won't trust

32:21

it or interact with

32:22

it. And as it stands, no

32:24

individual person from the post office has

32:26

been blamed for what happened. In

32:29

twenty twenty one, The post office

32:31

finally cut ties with the Horizon IT

32:33

system.

32:34

It is the most widespread miscarriage of justice

32:36

in British legal history. It is

32:39

a massive deal of this story, and the

32:41

consequences of it will continue to

32:43

rumble on for years to come. Nick

32:45

Wallace published a book on this. Called the

32:47

great post office scandal. I

32:49

find it extraordinary because I've covered quite a few stories

32:52

in my career, and I understand how

32:54

corporations have to protect their

32:56

own reputation, and I understand the natural

32:59

inclination of people to want to protect their

33:01

own back sides when things are

33:03

going wrong. But we

33:05

are talking about something as serious

33:07

as sending innocent people

33:09

to prison.

33:12

Nowadays, it's really not unusual to

33:14

hear stories of big businesses that put

33:16

reputation and profit over the well-being

33:18

of employees. You know, the regular

33:21

everyday working folks. But

33:23

what makes this story so shocking is

33:26

that these postmasters were forced to

33:28

pay for the mistakes of a shot at computer

33:31

system and not just with their wallets.

33:34

Hundreds and hundreds of innocent

33:36

hard work individuals lost their livelihoods

33:38

because no one wanted to admit that

33:41

the Horizon IT system was

33:43

raggedy. And the people at

33:45

the top, they didn't wanna take the blame.

33:48

And really, that's not the only crazy

33:50

thing about this story. When

33:53

you think about it, if any other company

33:55

thought their employees were stealing money,

33:58

they call the police. But

34:00

the post office basically just

34:03

called themselves. And this

34:05

meant that they didn't have to hold themselves accountable.

34:09

We've all used technology. We still

34:11

use it. We've been using it for years, and

34:13

we know that sometimes it doesn't

34:15

work. And in this case,

34:18

it's okay that the IT Horizon

34:20

system failed. New technology

34:23

is always having problems. Especially

34:26

when this was a time when people

34:28

were still getting used to even working with

34:30

computers. So

34:32

maybe when your employees were complaining

34:35

about the system, just

34:37

do some troubleshooting before

34:40

ruining the lives of hundreds

34:42

and hundreds of people, all

34:45

because you didn't

34:47

wanna say that you were wrong

34:49

for trusting it.

35:07

Hey folks, thanks for listening. Just

35:09

a reminder to follow cheap wherever you get

35:12

it. And please do leave a rating and

35:14

a review if you like what we're doing. It

35:16

helps other people discover the show, and

35:18

of course, who want more listeners. Also,

35:20

if you wanna listen to the show without the ads,

35:23

you can subscribe cheap plus. It's

35:25

like cheap, but better. It's just

35:27

two ninety nine a month. Or if you're in the

35:29

UK, two pounds forty nine.

35:31

And you get all of this without having to listen

35:33

to those annoying commercials. Just go

35:35

to Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe instead

35:38

of follow. You can try it for free

35:40

now. Next

35:42

time, let's eat. When

35:44

I got to Charlotte, nineteen eighty four,

35:46

the big celebrities were a few NASCAR drivers.

35:49

A few pro wrestlers and gym attack.

35:52

It was the biggest scandal going and

35:54

in some ways the perfect scandal. You had

35:56

sex. You had money. You had religion,

35:59

it was all there, and it all played out here

36:01

in Charlotte. The bottom line is

36:03

they were offering and promising more

36:06

than they could possibly deliver. She

36:13

is presented by me, Azo Slade.

36:15

This episode was produced by Olivia

36:17

Cole. The executive producers

36:19

are Lizzie Jacobs and Tom Koenig. The

36:22

series editor is Meghan Ditri. The

36:24

original idea for the show was developed

36:26

by Tom Fuller, mixing and scoring

36:29

by Martin Peralta and output media.

36:31

Hyrate AssaBay Bond suit is our associate

36:34

producer. Special thanks to the

36:36

Sony legal team. Our production

36:38

coordinators are Jennifer Mystery and

36:40

e care egg butola.