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Joe Kidder: Hello everyone. This is Joe Kidder with the Joe Kidder podcast sponsored by the

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Adventist Learning Community. In our last episode, we talked about grief, the causes of grief, how people

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handle the grief, what the scripture says about grieve, and how we.

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Can, uh, in, in one way or another, deal with it ourselves.

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Today again, I'm going to have Anna Galli talk to us about what we can do

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to help other people, what the church can do to help people who are in grief.

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So let's pray and then, uh, I will turn it over to you, Anna, father in heaven.

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I just pray that, um, you will dominate our conversation.

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Lord, uh, people are always in grief, and we want, as a church

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to be of support, of help, of encouragement, uh, something to lean on.

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And, uh, uh, today I pray that we will have some ideas on how to do that.

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I pray all of this in Jesus' name. Amen.

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Anna Galeniece: Amen. Joe Kidder: Uh, Anna, it looks like grief is universal.

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Every one of us either experience grief or are experiencing it, or definitely

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will experience it in the future.

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Last time you talked to us about, uh, what causes a grief, maybe you could give

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us just a, a, a short summary about that and then we will move for the topic of

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today, which is what we can do to help other people who are experiencing grief.

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Anna Galeniece: Thank you. Definitely grief. To summarize is an inescapable gift from God.

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It's a gift from God. Joe Kidder: You know, I never thought about it that way.

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That grief can be a gift from God.

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It is a gift from Anna Galeniece: us to express our loss through feelings,

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emotions, and our whole being.

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Joe Kidder: Rather than bottling it inside. Anna Galeniece: Exactly, yes.

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We create tension when we are losing someone or something.

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And this grief actually, uh, helps us to release it, but

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to release it in a proper way.

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I usually say to my, to people, um, grieve fully, but grieve gracefully.

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Joe Kidder: Grief, fully meaning all of the stages of, of bargaining, of

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Anna Galeniece: all, all of this, because we as human beings, we need to go

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through in order to, uh, not to keep it to ourselves and then painfully, uh, so

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Joe Kidder: it's really healthy to go through these stages of grief, but

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Anna Galeniece: going gracefully. Joe Kidder: What does gracefully mean here?

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Anna Galeniece: It's a good question because you see, when I am angry, I

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can hit you, but in my anger I also remember that what the, the Bible says

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to me about being angry and do not sin.

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Joe Kidder: Alright, so that makes sense. Yeah.

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Yeah. Anna Galeniece: Gracefully still remembering that I am a human being and

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God, who he is, God and what he says.

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I don't understand many things, but I accept, although it's painful, and uh,

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you know, when we speak about grief, many people kind of separate grief from

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God, but grief and God go together.

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Grief and worship go together.

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In what Joe Kidder: way? It goes with worship. Anna Galeniece: Okay.

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In the Bible, let's say even Psalm 22.

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You know, um, uh, here we read this beautiful psalm that actually many

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scholars believe that Christ, when Jesus was on the cross, he called

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Joe Kidder: my God, my God, why thou husband exactly forsaken me?

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Yes, yes. Anna Galeniece: My God, my God.

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Why have you forsaken me? Um.

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Oh my God. I cry in the daytime, but you do not hear, and in the night

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season, and I'm not silent. You know, this is expression of this grief.

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If Christ on the cross was grieving.

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Not maybe himself, but he was agreeing for humanity.

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For us. For humanity. For humanity. Yes, exactly.

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He was grieving how much more we can grieve, but grief and worship.

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This is Psalm of grief and when a person goes through a grieving stage or stages,

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you know the happy sermon on Hallelujah.

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May not be acceptable to that person.

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But reading through these psalms, like Psalm 22, Psalm 77, and some, the

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Book of Lamentations with a hope in the middle of that book of that book,

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Joe Kidder: your mercies are in you every day.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Joe Kidder: Yeah. Anna Galeniece: And still in the context is a grief, but you see this.

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Bible passages present and provide words to the grieving community.

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They allow, uh, the grieving person to express grief in the

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proper way and worship God through reading this Bible passages.

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So worship, grief, and God, although they are sounds very

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strange, but there is a connection.

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Let me bring you an example. Uh, let's say the father is at work, the mother was at home and she just

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received a phone call from an emergency room that she needs to come to the

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emergency room as soon as possible.

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She calls her husband, do the same, let's meet there, and they

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don't know what to expect there. They come to the emergency room to be told by the physician that your

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son, 15 years old boy, was uh, killed by a car crash by a car accident.

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We tried to save his life, but we were not able to.

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We did our best. What can we help you at this time?

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And they're, uh, taken to, to a room in the emergency room just to say their final

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words to the lifeless body of their son.

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You know, this is devastating. What can you, what can I, what can the church provide to this grieving family?

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Them parents, maybe their siblings also, you see, we try to.

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Judge them. Okay? If you were more careful, you would not allow or would not leave the keys

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of the car in the corner so their son would take and crush the car.

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We're easy to judge those people, but can we really walk with them, be with them?

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Can we really, um, allow our presence to be with those people?

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Like for example, Jesus Christ. I remember the story when he approached Martha and Mary when Lazarus, Jesus friend

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Joe Kidder: was dead. Yes, he was dead. Yeah. Yeah. Anna Galeniece: He died and Jesus, uh, was not coming at once to, to heal

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when Lazarus was sick, but he allowed Lazarus to die and only then he came.

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And what did the sisters do to Jesus?

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Joe Kidder: He's already dead. There's nothing we could do about it.

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Anna Galeniece: And then in addition to that, they started blaming Jesus.

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If you were, if you came Joe Kidder: in on time, yes.

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If you Anna Galeniece: were here, Joe Kidder: yeah. Anna Galeniece: Lazarus would not die.

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Joe Kidder: It's Anna Galeniece: like Joe Kidder: they That's a good point. Yeah.

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They Anna Galeniece: were bargaining with Jesus.

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Yes. They were blaming him for not being there.

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But at the same time, Jesus did not backfire.

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He had a special approach to each of the sisters.

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He knew Martha, he knew her personality.

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So to know a person is very important.

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He knew her personality and he knew her fa face, and he encouraged faith and hope

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in Martha by pointing to the resurrection.

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I am the resurrection in life.

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He provided this unique opportunity to worship him as the son of God.

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And he converted. He gave her Joe Kidder: the ultimate hope, and then he demonstrated that he could do it.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly, yeah. And he conversed with Martha on Martha's level.

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When we come to Mary.

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Just few verses farther in the same chapter.

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Uh, John chapter 11, we see Jesus different approach with, uh, right here.

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He allowed Martha to cry, but here Mary was not crying.

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It's interesting. Ellen White in the Book of Desire of ages, the Desire of

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Ages page, uh, 533, she says.

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Jesus allowed her Mary to be restrained from fully expressing her grief.

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Why? Why he allowed Martha to express her grief and not Mary, but at

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the same time, then Jesus, we read the shortest verse in the Bible.

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Jesus Joe Kidder: wept, Anna Galeniece: wept.

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You see, he knew Mary's heart also.

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He knew her grief, her stage of grief.

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Uh, her desires not only for Lazarus that the brother who that who is that

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already, but also she was concerned about Jesus and he knew that and therefore he

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embraced Mary with other, uh, approach.

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And it was a sole moment of worship.

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And, uh, he extended, uh, this pitiful empathy by weeping with

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her, but, uh, so alarming her to be supported differently than Mary.

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Christ's heart was pierced with the pain of the whole humanity.

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Joe Kidder: So really what you are telling me is that the best thing

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sometimes you can do when you are ministering to somebody who is

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grieving is just cry with them and why?

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Like what Jesus did Anna Galeniece: and why not?

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Joe Kidder: Exactly. Anna Galeniece: Your presence is crucial, important.

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You don't preach at that very time and try to find in the scripture,

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you know, the text maybe whatever.

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Judgment, whatever, but your presence like Jesus was, he came and he was present with

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Mary and Martha according to their needs.

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Another example from the Bible we can bring of the job, job.

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Remember when he, uh, got.

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Uh, all these sufferings.

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Um, when he lost his family, his possessions, everything, his health and

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even his wife told him, curse and die.

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Joe Kidder: Yeah. Curse and dying. Anna Galeniece: His friends heard about this and they came from Far country

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and in chapter here, chapter, um.

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Chapter two. Chapter two, the, uh, the last three verses.

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Um, so they came and they mourn with him.

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At first, these three friends, um, they came to mourn to be with him and verse

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two, and when they raised their eyes from afar and did not recognize, uh, him.

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It means job. They lifted their voices and wept and each one of them tore their robes and sprinkled

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dust on their head towards heaven.

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So they sat down with him on the ground seven days and seven nights.

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They provided presence.

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They provided their grief support.

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Um, they were crying together with Job I. But as soon as they

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opened their mouth, the story

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Joe Kidder: changed. Anna Galeniece: Changed Joe Kidder: completely. Yeah. So sometimes the best thing you could do is just to be with them, not to preach.

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Not to be philosophical. Like what those friends did with Job.

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Yes. At the beginning they just sat with him.

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They cried with, they had the Ministry of Presence.

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Really. And that's what people who are, you know, grieving need.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly Ministry of presence.

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What does it mean? Yes, you are there when you are needed the most.

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You are there when someone hurts the most and you don't approach, you don't

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come to that person with your agenda.

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You come to listen to be, not to do, but to be.

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To be is much harder than to do.

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We as human beings, we're always try to do something.

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But being is much more important. Joe Kidder: Actually, my wife reminds me of this.

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I go home and, uh, she's telling me about some crisis that happened.

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So I give her some solutions. She said, that's not what I want.

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I want somebody to hug me.

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Yes, somebody to empathize with me.

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Yes, somebody to love me.

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That's, that's it. But we are.

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Prone to giving answers or even giving scripture what all what

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they need is somebody be there to be there to cry with them.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Um,

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so active listening. It's listening to the heart because people may not express, your wife

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is beautiful, expresses to you that she needs you, but sometimes a

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grieving person may not express this.

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But being with that person, you hear the cry of the heart.

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Joe Kidder: So they might not tell you, but that's what they need.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. And how can you do that?

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Invite the person to tell the story because there is power in the story.

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Although it's a painful story, you may think that, oh, I

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don't want to bring more pain. But actually when the person tells the story, it releases the tension.

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The person hears his or her own story of grief, of loss, and it helps to heal.

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It, uh, because again, it's not us to provide the answer, but the person, if

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the person especially, is the religious, the person who trusts God relies on

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the Bible through telling the story.

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The Holy Spirit directs that person to Jesus.

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Joe Kidder: You know, uh, as a pastor, I notice that some people are willing to

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tell you everything, but other people I.

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Just maybe need more time. So don't force it on them, just let it flow naturally.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Joe Kidder: Yeah. Anna Galeniece: And that's again, ministry of presence.

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The hardest time just to be there.

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And it's okay if the pause is five minutes, 10 minutes, half an

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hour, half a day, several days.

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Joe Kidder: Even if you feel uncomfortable with that silence, it's okay.

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Anna Galeniece: It's okay. Joe Kidder: Just be there. Anna Galeniece: Just be there.

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Come again tomorrow. Encourage, uh, with your presence.

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And when you hear the story, then you realize what are the real needs?

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Because you may assume, okay, I think he needs this A, B, C, or

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she needs X, Y, Z, but in reality, it can be absolutely different.

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Joe Kidder: I saw this also in my wife when she lost her

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mother about four years ago. She wanted to talk about her.

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Mm-hmm. And you know, she wanted to tell the wonderful stories of the

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relationship they had with each other,

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Anna Galeniece: those, and that Joe Kidder: was therapeutic for my wife.

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Anna Galeniece: Absolutely. Those memories are therapeutic and the grieving person may go back as.

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He or she's comfortable with, uh, maybe to childhood, like maybe your wife even

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remembered some stories about mother from her own childhood, maybe how she,

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the mother was cooking, how the mother was, uh, storytelling, how the mother

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was singing, and so on and so on. In other words, don't just ask questions to that person.

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But in why that person to tell the story?

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Would you mind sharing something about your mother?

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Joe Kidder: Okay. Is there an appropriate time when we start sharing with them

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the hope we have in Christ? I. Or, or let it just, uh, maybe flow naturally at, at

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some time in the conversation. I think Anna Galeniece: you just provided the answer because if we come with a preaching

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with our own agenda, because we have hope.

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And we do truly have hope.

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Oh, yes, we have hope, beautiful hope, but we cannot bombard our hope on the

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another person who is going through grief.

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Let it come naturally and definitely, uh, we may find prayerfully the

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appropriate time when to in the, okay.

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In the reconstructing of the story.

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That person reconstructs this personal story.

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Through the storytelling, there comes a moment when the person starts

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telling the story with a future tense

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with hope. That is the proper time

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Joe Kidder: when we inject some scripture into it. Anna Galeniece: Exactly, but when the person still is in the painful past.

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Allow that pain to be expressed and grieved properly.

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Otherwise, it may, we may just provide, oh,

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grief support, but we will not allow a person to grieve

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fully and grieve gracefully.

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Joe Kidder: Now, some people might grieve for a short time, but some

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people I have seen it because I have been a pastor for 40 years.

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They are grieving of issues that have happened to them 20, 30 years ago.

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Is that healthy? Anna Galeniece: Each person grieves separate, differently each person,

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but prolonged grief is not healthy.

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It means that there's some issues that have not been dealt with

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and therefore it's important again to invite that person.

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To tell the story, maybe there is.

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Um, shame attached, guilt attached, unforgiving spirit attached to that.

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So the grief is not fully, has not been fully expressed and dealt with.

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We may say accumulated grief because maybe several deaths, uh, several

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losses, several painful experiences, but maybe postponed grief, that

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person didn't have time to grieve properly and postpone grief for years.

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Or maybe there is some kind of attitude that the person doesn't

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want to let it go, so it would be healthy again to invite that person.

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You cannot. Push that person to do this and to tell the story.

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But you can invite, Joe Kidder: you are reminding me of a case.

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I was a new at a district, I pastored, so I went and visited one of the elders.

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We were sitting around the table like this, and the wives start

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talking about her little boy. Who was playing with the neighbor's boy and he kicked the ball into the street.

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When he went to retrieve it, a drunk driver came.

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Mm-hmm. And killed him, and she's talking with deep emotion and she's crying.

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So I assume that the story happened just recently.

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Then later on I learned that this story is at least eight or nine years old.

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From visiting with this family.

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Mm-hmm And I tried to listen and, and I tried to get her to talk about it.

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I discovered that the problem that she was facing was that she was not willing

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to forgive the man who killed her boy.

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Anna Galeniece: It's serious. Yeah. And it Joe Kidder: was killing her.

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Yes. She was the one who was in pain.

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Yes. The man who killed her child probably was not even aware of what happened to her.

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Anna Galeniece: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joe Kidder: And therefore, uh, we, we need to deal with the baggages of these

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things, like what you said mm-hmm.

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Unforgiveness, uh mm-hmm. Uh, in a proper way of handling grieve.

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Anna Galeniece: Yes. And.

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Church supposed to be a safe haven for this grief issues to to deal with.

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Unfortunately, we know that reality sometimes it's not there

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and people are afraid, um, to tell others and they no theory.

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Yes, I should forgive. But at the same time, they may not.

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I have Joe Kidder: the right not to forgive. That's what that lady told me.

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I exactly. Anna Galeniece: Yeah. 'cause she lost a child.

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Joe Kidder: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anna Galeniece: But who is suffering the most?

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Joe Kidder: She was, Anna Galeniece: she was suffering.

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And now again, uh, it's only two retelling the story and providing that

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assurance that, am I forgiven by God?

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How can I forgive others?

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So you see this is a difficult subject, but it's important to address properly.

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And again, if I know this and start criticizing or judging her for that,

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I'm not doing good to her at all.

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But if I am there to, uh, to be with her and to express and to.

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Allow that forgiveness to happen to her life.

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Joe Kidder: I learned a lot of the stuff that, uh, you are sharing with

24:43

us today from one of the members of my church who was a funeral director.

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Mm-hmm. And even I went to couple of seminars on a grieve.

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So what I did with this woman was the ministry of presence.

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I. I visited with that family several times.

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I allowed her to tell the story over and over, and at one time I started

25:06

to talk to her about forgiveness and she admitted to me that was one of

25:10

the things that our eating at her,

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Anna Galeniece: yep. Joe Kidder: Her heart, she felt was dark because she was not willing to forgive.

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Anna Galeniece: You're reminded right now, um, a powerful story about.

25:26

Missionaries who went to Palau Island, um, and the father, the

25:32

mother, and the brother were killed.

25:35

Joe Kidder: Yeah, only the girl survived.

25:37

Survived. Yeah. She Anna Galeniece: actually was, had to be killed, but she miraculously survived.

25:42

Escaped, yeah. Yeah. The Lord kept her life for some reason.

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And how so many years later from her childhood, actually, she wanted to

25:51

return to pa, to that island of Palau, but it was not the proper time, and

25:57

so many years later, she returned to forgive, but her grandmother.

26:03

Who lost her daughter, the son-in-law and the grandson forgave

26:10

the killer at that very moment.

26:14

This is something that only Christ can give that forgiveness

26:18

to forgive the someone else. He did

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Joe Kidder: that on the cross as an an example for all of us.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Yeah, and it's also, it's, he invites us to be connected to him.

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And how can we connect others to to Jesus Christ by our love towards them.

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We are, as a church community, we are called to love each other.

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Not to judge, but to love.

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Joe Kidder: That's really a wonderful way to close our episode today.

26:48

To love not to judge, to be there for them.

26:52

Yes. To listen to them. To remember that we are.

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By our presence, bringing the presence of Jesus to them

27:02

through love, through listening Anna Galeniece: exactly,

27:04

Joe Kidder: through understanding what they're going through and, and sometimes

27:08

it might mean also in addition to listening, maybe bringing them food.

27:13

Maybe some, uh, if they need money or other things.

27:17

Transportation. That's what the teachers are.

27:19

Childcare. Childcare. Yes. Yes. Anna Galeniece: There's so many issues, but again, it's not on our agenda.

27:24

But by being, by listening, we learn what these people, what they need.

27:28

Need. Yes. Yeah. And also as a church community, uh, if we have a worship leader.

27:36

Also, maybe it would be nice to have some special worship services where that these

27:43

grieving souls may find comfort and peace.

27:48

In a memorial service, not necessarily memorial service for a particular person,

27:53

but just general Memorial service.

27:55

Uh, by pointing again, attention to Jesus Christ, the resurrection, the,

28:02

uh, the one who gives forgiveness, the one who restores humanity.

28:07

Turning to him, you know, it's a beautiful, it could be a very beautiful

28:14

way of closure to something that.

28:17

Been not closed for many years.

28:20

Yeah. Joe Kidder: Actually I know a lot of churches that maybe at the end

28:23

of the year they have a memorial service for the people who died.

28:27

Anna Galeniece: Yeah, yeah. Joe Kidder: Uh, and celebrate their lives.

28:30

Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And it's, it's a new way of starting new life again.

28:36

Joe Kidder: Yeah. With Jesus, we always have hope. Yes.

28:39

And we always have a new life. Anna Galeniece: Yeah.

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It's only because of him. Joe Kidder: Yeah.

28:45

And Jesus who came to the grave of Lazareth and comforted the

28:52

two sisters in different ways.

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We need to bring Jesus to people, to comfort them in whatever way they need.

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Anna Galeniece: Exactly. Thank you so much for pointing this out.

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Jesus is our only. Answer to all the crucial problems of our life, including death

29:12

and grief and any kind of loss.

29:15

Joe Kidder: Thank you. Would you please pray for us as we close our episode?

29:18

Anna Galeniece: Yes. Let's pray. Our gracious, loving, heavenly Father, thank you so much

29:24

for being our life giver.

29:29

Thank you so much for being our hope, our assurance, our forgiveness, our new life,

29:37

and allow us to find everything what we need in you and be, uh, secured in you.

29:47

Have that anchor in you every single day because with you, we

29:54

have today and we have tomorrow.

29:57

In Jesus' name. Amen. Joe Kidder: Amen.

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That concludes our episode for today.

30:03

I look forward to being with you in the next episode,

30:22

Anna Galeniece: an Adventist Learning Community podcast.