0:00

I'm John Banther and this is Classical

0:02

Breakdown. From WTA Classical in Washington,

0:04

we are your guide to classical

0:06

music. In this episode, I'm joined

0:08

by legendary trumpet player Chris Gecker

0:10

to learn everything about his instrument.

0:12

He's appeared on nearly 200 recordings,

0:15

many times as a soloist. He

0:17

was a member of the American

0:19

Brass Quintet for 18 years, Principal

0:21

trumpet of Orchestra of St. Luke's,

0:23

and taught at Juilliard and the

0:25

Manhattan School of Music. Be prepared

0:27

to learn more about the trumpet

0:30

than you ever thought possible, as he

0:32

takes us on a journey spanning thousands

0:34

of years, from the first Olympic Games

0:36

to new works for the trumpet today.

0:38

And stay with us to the end

0:40

as he plays a few examples for

0:42

us and has some heart-touching

0:44

stories. Welcome Chris. Thank you

0:46

so much for coming in to

0:48

talk. All things trumpet, I'm especially

0:51

excited because trumpet was actually my

0:53

very first instrument. Thank you, John,

0:55

and I am grateful for this opportunity.

0:57

Now, there's a question I'd like to

0:59

start with, and I think it might

1:01

be interesting with the trumpet because of

1:03

how ubiquitous it is, but how would you

1:06

describe your instrument to someone who's

1:08

never seen it before, never heard

1:10

it? Maybe they've never been to

1:12

a concert before. How would you

1:14

describe it? I would say in

1:16

general the trumpet is an instrument

1:19

of dramatic entrances, and it has

1:21

been since the earliest days of

1:23

human history. In the earliest written

1:25

documents, we have like the Sumerian

1:27

epic Gilgamesh from 2100 BC, there

1:29

is mention of the trumpet, and

1:31

it's always a sort of a

1:34

generic term, in other words, an

1:36

instrument of announcement, and every culture

1:38

around the world, whether it's a

1:40

steer or a ramhorn, a conch

1:42

shell. Every culture around the world

1:45

has had an instrument of authority

1:47

and announcement that was expected to

1:49

project to large numbers of people.

1:51

And in days, of course, before

1:53

amplification, this was very important. The

1:56

very first Olympic Games in Greece

1:58

in the 700 BC, had, in

2:00

addition to the athletic competitions, which

2:02

were all related to war activities

2:04

like the javelin and sprinting, there

2:06

was a trumpet competition and the

2:09

prizes were given to the person

2:11

that could project the farthest and

2:13

because that was a matter of

2:15

life and death in ancient society,

2:17

the ability to project information over

2:19

long distances. Now that's a contest.

2:21

I don't think we should. do

2:23

today? Who, which trumpet player can

2:25

play the loudest? Well, every year

2:28

at the International Tropical Guild conference,

2:30

if you go into the instrument triout

2:32

room, it encapsulates the Olympic Games experience.

2:34

That's an experience. I wish everyone could

2:36

get at some point. Go into a

2:38

room, an instrument demonstration room. And my

2:40

advice is run away as fast as

2:42

you can. So declamatory, I mean, we

2:44

really hear that in the music. And

2:46

as you said, this is one that

2:48

goes back thousands of years, not just

2:51

like we have like we have. flutes

2:53

made of bones from like 10,000,

2:55

30,000 years ago or whatever, but

2:57

we have documents and things of

2:59

how it was used in government,

3:01

in military, sending messages, all those

3:03

things, back thousands of years. Yes,

3:06

and in fact, the trumpet was

3:08

always associated with the monarchy or

3:10

whoever was in charge. So even

3:12

into the medieval city states, it

3:14

was against the law to even

3:16

possess a trumpet unless you belonged

3:18

to the guild. It would be

3:21

somewhat similar in today. society, let's

3:23

say like the old cojack TV show,

3:25

and I know I'm dating myself, but

3:27

you know if you could whip out

3:29

a siren and put on top of

3:31

your car and then go through any

3:34

traffic jam, so in the ancient city

3:36

states, not ancient, the medieval city states,

3:38

to have a trumpet that would announce

3:40

enemy approaching or fire or something like

3:42

that, was a civic responsibility. Okay, so

3:44

like you don't put blue and red

3:46

lights on your car, for example. Okay.

3:49

So let's go back to... Let's go

3:51

to some of the basics of the

3:53

instrument. How does it produce a

3:55

sound? Well, the vibrating lips produce

3:57

a standing sound wave inside the

3:59

instrument. And this is kind of

4:01

a rabbit hole that brass players

4:03

go through, because I know a

4:05

lot of teachers will emphasize taking

4:07

a big breath and blowing through

4:09

the instrument. But in fact, air

4:11

does not move inside any instrument.

4:13

And then there's no correlation between

4:16

the movement of air and the

4:18

production of sound. I learned this

4:20

from Arnold Jacobs, too. A famous

4:22

tuba player and perhaps the greatest

4:24

pedagogue of the 20th century in

4:26

the brass world. So a standing

4:28

sound wave is produced inside the

4:30

instrument and projects out. There

4:32

is no, the air does

4:34

not move inside the instrument.

4:36

The speed of sound is

4:39

approximately 770 miles per hour.

4:41

The fastest movement of air ever

4:43

recorded on earth, F5 tornado approaching 300

4:45

miles an hour. So there is would

4:48

be possible to move. air, the... and

4:50

if you're walking on the street and

4:52

here's someone practicing an instrument inside their

4:55

house, the sound waves are going through

4:57

the walls of the house to use.

4:59

So sound waves go through air. By

5:01

the way, the sound waves go through

5:04

water four times faster than air, close

5:06

to 3,000 miles an hour. So that's

5:08

how a pot of whales can communicate

5:11

with another pot of whales in the

5:13

Pacific Ocean thousands of miles

5:15

away. And sound waves go

5:17

through rockstone, steel, everything. We

5:19

take a breath and the

5:22

inhalation produces an internal compression

5:24

foundation which allows us to

5:26

produce the sound and brass

5:28

instruments are more strenuous. There's

5:31

a greater internal pressure than

5:33

other instruments except Obo. Actually

5:35

trumpet is the highest compressed

5:37

instrument and Obo is second

5:40

even before other brass instruments.

5:42

They make us think it's the

5:44

opposite. Well. trumpet is literally the

5:47

only instrument that you can dramatically

5:49

injure yourself playing. In other words,

5:51

a rip and nerve, broken blood

5:53

vessels, hernias. Passing out. Yeah. Now

5:55

and then you'll run into an

5:57

Obel player with a neck hernia,

5:59

but it's... relatively rare and in

6:01

all the other instruments and believe

6:04

me injuries playing musical instruments are

6:06

serious and debilitating and very very

6:08

a grave subject for sure yeah

6:10

but generally with every other instruments

6:12

an over-use injury so carpal tunnel

6:14

arthritis tendonitis even dystonia is tends

6:16

to be an over-use related injury

6:19

so it's a little bit like

6:21

on a track team, the trumpeters

6:23

are for the sprinters or the

6:25

100 meter sprinters that can, you

6:27

know, tear an ACL or a

6:29

hamstring, whereas most other instruments are like

6:31

the middle distance and long distance runners,

6:34

they're just simply the pounding over time.

6:36

And any string players play the Schubert

6:38

Ninth Symphony, you can attest to this.

6:40

Just the simple repetition over time can

6:42

lead to various serious injuries. But it's

6:45

different. That's a good thing to point out in that.

6:47

We can get injuries from playing an instrument

6:49

and it sounds like the trumpet is

6:51

one. You know, I've seen trumpet players

6:53

with, you know, putting ice on their

6:55

lips after a concert even. Right. The

6:57

adjective, the say high note trumpet player,

6:59

and everyone knows what you're talking about,

7:01

like in a big band days, speaking

7:03

of Maynard Ferguson or a screening, you

7:05

cannot put that adjective in front of

7:07

any other instrument with any meaning. It

7:09

takes great skill to play in a

7:11

high register on any kind, violin, tuba,

7:13

flute. But we don't, it would be

7:15

absurd to say, oh, so and so

7:17

is a high note violinist. Yeah. But

7:19

trumpet, we know right away, which you

7:22

mean, and I think that the excitement

7:24

of hearing a trumpet play like that

7:26

is embedded in us as human beings from

7:28

those ancient days, because all of us,

7:30

whether you're in a nightclub or wherever,

7:32

you have a sense of that it's

7:35

actually a dangerous act that that

7:37

person's doing. So it has it. sort

7:39

of extra drama. Now, the trumpet can

7:41

be played beautifully softly and for

7:43

me personally, the most

7:45

beautiful aspect of the trumpet

7:48

is how lyrical and song like

7:50

it can be, but that announcing

7:52

dramatic gesture idea is something that

7:55

is always going to be a big

7:57

part of the trumpet. And in those

7:59

ancient... documents, trumpet is almost sort

8:01

of a generic term for an

8:04

instrument of announcing. Yeah. Okay. Well,

8:06

let's go into that a little

8:08

bit, the declamatory announcing aspect of

8:10

it, because it sounds like that's

8:13

kind of how it was used

8:15

early on going to now our

8:17

purposes from ancient Egypt or whatever

8:19

to maybe the 1415 or 1600s

8:22

into the 1700s. How was the

8:24

trumpet used in these early times

8:26

and renaissance and Baroque music? We

8:28

can start a little early, like

8:31

the Romans made great use of

8:33

brass instruments, and they had three

8:35

specific types, and one of the

8:37

types looks a little bit more

8:40

like a sousaphone as they have

8:42

a curled brass thing that goes

8:44

over the shoulder. And then when

8:46

the Roman Empire sort of dissolved

8:49

around 500 AD, there was a

8:51

gap where trumpet was really not

8:53

a... known and it's about 300

8:55

years before there's mention again and

8:58

that's with Charlemagne in about 880

9:00

and strangely enough this is according

9:02

to things I've read and researched

9:04

that the art of trumpet making

9:07

was kept alive mostly in Ireland

9:09

so there were these Irish monks

9:11

that brought Charlemagne's court these trumpets

9:13

and then it started with the

9:16

Holy Roman Empire. So again the

9:18

trumpet was reserved for the the

9:20

royalty and such. And then the

9:22

instruments start to evolve. There is

9:25

a slide trumpet that appears. First

9:27

of all, the early trumpets had

9:29

no valves. They were like bugles

9:31

and the valve mechanism, which allows

9:34

us to play chromatically, was patented

9:36

around 1815. Prior to that, there

9:38

was a little bit of time,

9:40

a couple. 20 years where there

9:43

were some keyed trumpets, Anton Vidinger

9:45

who commissioned the Haydn and the

9:47

Humboldt Trumpet Concerto, among a few

9:49

other works, in the late 1700s,

9:51

early 1800s, had a keyed trumpet

9:54

of his own design, which looked

9:56

like a bugle with saxophone keys,

9:58

so to speak. But then the

10:00

valve mechanism. later which was connected

10:03

to the idea of the steam

10:05

engine piston which had been patented

10:07

you know 40 years before 30

10:09

years before so allowed for an

10:12

airtight instrument changing words of the

10:14

key trumpet had the the open

10:16

holes which compromise the sounds to

10:18

some degree. Those same open holes

10:21

which exist on woodwind instruments are

10:23

not as dire because of the

10:25

internal pressure. If the internal pressure

10:27

is not as dramatic, so the

10:30

sound is then not compromised, but on

10:32

a trumpet where the internal pressure is,

10:34

so to speak, you know, sort of

10:37

off the charts, then the minute there's

10:39

a leak. it's dramatically affects the tone.

10:41

Anyway, so there was a slide

10:43

trumpet, which was like a single

10:45

telescoping slide. Now, it's like the

10:47

smallest trombone you can think of.

10:49

Well, sort of. I'm gonna get

10:52

to that, because when there's, when

10:54

there are wars and such, there's,

10:56

you know, horrible conflict and tragedy

10:58

for so many innocent people. There's

11:00

also cultural exchange, and in the

11:02

Fourth Crusades, which were Christian armies

11:04

going to the Middle East. and clashing

11:06

with the Islamic armies. The Islamic

11:09

armies had slide trumpets and they

11:11

used them as a military weapon

11:13

and there are documents that refer

11:15

to the knights of the Christian

11:18

army, their horses being very sort

11:20

of discombobulated by

11:22

the sound, the cacophony of these

11:24

slide trumpets. Well. There's also cultural

11:26

exchange, however we can imagine it,

11:28

in a war, and some of

11:31

these slide trumpets were brought back

11:33

to Europe. And in the Renaissance,

11:35

there were these slide trumpets, and

11:37

there would usually be outdoor instruments

11:40

in concert with like two shams,

11:42

sort of like oboe-like woodwind instruments,

11:44

and they played at outdoor fairs

11:46

and celebrations and dances. Now, someone

11:49

in the 1300s had the brilliant

11:51

idea like if you have a

11:53

single slide. If we double it, that

11:55

you'll get more bang for the

11:57

buck, so to speak. And that's where

11:59

the first... trombones were invented both

12:01

in Italy southern France and in

12:04

Germany but that necessitates a bigger

12:06

instrument so the word trombone actually

12:08

if you go the root of

12:10

the word means big trumpet yes

12:12

so that's where the trombone and

12:15

that anyway so then we have

12:17

in the Baroque era declarino which

12:19

is a valvless natural horn which

12:21

plays the harmonic scale so for

12:23

people that that are not have

12:25

a background in this, in the

12:28

low register the intervals are quite

12:30

large and as you climb up into

12:32

the high register suddenly you can start

12:34

playing a scale because the partials are

12:36

close to each other and that is

12:38

why Baroque trumpet plane is literally almost

12:41

always in the high register because that's

12:43

literally the only place of scale is

12:45

possible. At the same time there was

12:47

another instrument called the cornetto or zinc

12:49

and this was a sort of a

12:51

hybrid instrument with a buzzing mouthpiece but

12:53

more like a recorder and made of

12:56

wood and sometimes ivory and covered in

12:58

leather. And like for instance the Gabrielli,

13:00

we hear brass music, brass music of

13:02

Gabrielli, that was actually written for the

13:04

cornetto, which was a softer, more wooden-like

13:07

instrument. So nowadays we generally hear Gabrielli

13:09

sort of almost bognerian, thunderous. When you

13:11

hear Gabrielli played by original instruments, it's

13:13

very ethereal, very magical. I've been to

13:16

St. Mark's in Venice and talked to

13:18

the music director there and talked to

13:20

the music director there and speaking to

13:22

the music director there. when you hear

13:24

original instruments it sounds sort of magical

13:27

and very mystical versus... The thing, the

13:29

joke is that you and I both

13:31

know this John, when you play Gabrielli

13:34

like Wagner it still works, you know,

13:36

it still works, it's fun. The

13:38

other, the other interesting thing about that

13:40

just parenthetically the word antifinal which

13:42

literally only means alternating voices and in

13:45

Europe in general they do... don't

13:47

play these things at distances from each

13:49

other. We just assume that that

13:51

means choirs that are far apart, but

13:53

it actually referred to the Gabrielli

13:55

clan, which was mostly active around 1580

13:58

to 1620, refers to their style.

14:00

style of composition, where voices answered

14:02

each other back and forth. And

14:04

in St. Mark's, in most places,

14:06

the group sat intermingled. It wasn't,

14:08

the reason we view this music

14:10

as antifinal for separate choirs comes

14:12

from that recording in the mid-60s,

14:14

famous recording with Cleveland. Chicago and

14:16

Philadelphia orchestras playing and in the

14:19

early days of stereo we'd have

14:21

the brass choirs coming out of

14:23

different speakers. That's literally, I think

14:25

the music director St. Mark's was

14:27

laughing about that. You know, it

14:29

was Alan Dean in me over

14:31

there talking to him and how

14:33

the word antifenile has changed its

14:35

meaning. And I'll put some video

14:37

on the show notes page of

14:40

both of these things, of the

14:42

original instruments where they're... closer together

14:44

and then some of the, you

14:46

know, what we do today, the

14:48

brass choir spread out in different

14:50

parts of a hall. I've seen

14:52

people pose it that they'll show

14:54

the Venice outsourced square with groups

14:56

playing different corners, but this is,

14:59

they weren't playing Gabrieli, they were

15:01

playing dances and it was like,

15:03

not the church music. There's two

15:05

works. I want to mention and

15:07

hear from you on. The first

15:09

one, because they're both in the

15:11

Baroque period, the first one is

15:13

Bach and that Brandon Burke and

15:15

Sheridan number two, we know he

15:18

wrote, we have several surviving six

15:20

of these concertos. The second one

15:22

really features the trumpet and right

15:24

now we're hearing a recording of

15:26

you playing this, talk to us

15:28

about this because this seems out

15:30

of nowhere really hard and kind

15:32

of like a, I don't know,

15:34

maybe an Olympic event for a

15:37

trumpet player. It

15:42

is. It's commonly viewed as the

15:44

sort of the highest piece on

15:46

a repertoire. There's actually a concerto

15:48

by Michael Haydn from the 1760s,

15:50

which builds higher. But yeah, so

15:52

the, so Bach Brandmerger Chair, it's

15:55

a very interesting story. He wrote

15:57

these for himself. He was, as

15:59

a, young man in the 17

16:01

teens, this was years before he

16:03

went to Leipzig. And sometimes I

16:05

hear people saying, well, he wrote

16:08

the Brandenburg for Gottfried Reicher, who

16:10

was his trumpeter in Leipzig. And

16:12

this is not true. It was

16:14

years before he met Gottfried Reicher.

16:16

And nothing he wrote for Reicher

16:18

went that high. So Bach was

16:20

studying Italian concertos. And it

16:23

was quite inspiring for all

16:25

of us. So it's a great. musician

16:27

who really was like a student his

16:29

whole life and he was he was

16:31

copying out Vivaldi and Correlli and such

16:33

like that and he wrote these six

16:36

sort of concertos not solo concertos but

16:38

cheddar in the original meaning which meant

16:40

to be in harmony and the early

16:42

version of that he he simply wrote

16:44

in French by the way on the

16:47

title page music for diverse instruments all

16:49

lower case so he sort of put

16:51

it away in a drawer then as

16:53

a young man of course he's going

16:56

for gigs and there was

16:58

an opening at the Duke

17:00

of Brandenburg who had a

17:02

fine chamber so he literally

17:04

re-gifted and he didn't get

17:07

the job by the way.

17:09

There is no, I'm going

17:11

on Kristof Wolf biography of

17:13

Bach on this, there is

17:15

no record of the Brandenburg's

17:18

ever getting performed. Wow. So

17:20

yeah. And it doesn't mean

17:22

they didn't, but there's no

17:24

record. And generally Germans keep

17:27

good records. So it's for trumpet

17:29

and F. Generally, Bach wrote for

17:31

trumpet and D. So it's like

17:33

a minor third higher. The voicing

17:35

interaction with the oboe and flute

17:37

is a little bit different than

17:39

you would see in the B

17:41

minor mass. There have been some

17:44

people, this is where some people

17:46

start to really get their hackles

17:48

up, there are some people that

17:50

argue that it was meant to

17:52

be played down the octave. Yeah.

17:54

And I've seen trumpet players just

17:57

react furiously at this, as someone who

17:59

performed it. over a hundred times

18:01

and many times Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall,

18:03

Europe, and Asia. So I have done

18:05

it. I think there's a lot of

18:08

argument that it may be. So because

18:10

there's very little trumpet and F in

18:12

the broke arrow. Tellamron wrote a few

18:15

cantatas with trumpet and F but he

18:17

never goes to the high F. He

18:19

always as highest note as the high

18:21

fifth. So and then there's this. It's

18:24

the ear test. So this is a

18:26

little bit funny to say like Bach.

18:28

you know, has a sound and he

18:30

doesn't really deviate all that much from

18:33

it. Now, you know, so we have

18:35

200 or so cantatas. He wrote 300,

18:37

100, or lost, whatever. Of the 200,

18:40

there are some absolute masterpieces, a few,

18:42

and then there's a lot of ones

18:44

that are just really great and really

18:46

good, and they all sort of sound

18:49

like Bach. Yeah. So the Brandberg second

18:51

with the trumpet is such a sort

18:53

of a... Outlier, and that's why it's

18:56

very exciting in concerts, aside from again,

18:58

the audience being excited by this high

19:00

brilliant sound. And I've, you know, I've

19:02

been there. I've been when the audience

19:05

just reacts like crazy. We, in Carnegie

19:07

Hall, we've oncored the second, the third

19:09

movement and things like that. But... I

19:11

have a funny story. I was getting

19:14

ready in, you know, it was many

19:16

years in New York, and first Trump

19:18

of the Orch of St. Luke, St.

19:21

Luke's Chamber Ensemble. We were getting ready

19:23

for a tour of Spain, and we

19:25

had two programs. One was Mozart and

19:27

Mendelssohnes and symphonies, and the other was

19:30

the complete Brandenburg, and Jamie Laredo, the

19:32

violence conductor, great musician, good friend, good

19:34

friend, was conducting. So we had a,

19:36

I remember we had a rehearsal, we

19:39

had a rehearsal, pickle of trumpet. And

19:41

he said, we have to do the

19:43

Brandbergs. And I said, OK, I'll just

19:46

play it on a big trumpet down

19:48

the octave. And I'll never forget we

19:50

finished the first movement. And everyone looked

19:52

at me and says, that's so nice.

19:55

And the thing is, and Barry Tuckwell

19:57

recorded on Horn, there's Nicholas Harancourt, one

19:59

of his recordings is. down the octave,

20:02

it sounds more like other Bach. Now

20:04

it's not as dramatic and not as

20:06

sort of exhilarating in that way, but

20:08

I can see the argument. Anyway, having

20:11

said that, I've had people just like

20:13

sneer at me for saying this, I'm

20:15

not going to go down that rabbit

20:17

hole. But I think one thing is

20:20

important as trumpet players when we play

20:22

it, it's not a trumpet concerto. There

20:24

are four soloists and we have to

20:27

hear the flute and the oboo. play

20:29

his later in his life he

20:31

played his fifth Brannaburg which he

20:33

which some people have have called

20:35

the first keyboard concerto and he

20:37

did make use of that and

20:39

he he often redid his works

20:41

and rearranged them and and the

20:43

first Brannaburg which has the two

20:46

horn parts he adapted some of

20:48

that for his hunt cantata because

20:50

he wanted to evoke the hunting

20:52

horns. I'm reminded of a comment

20:54

you made earlier about the trumpet

20:56

also being like a sprinter in

20:58

the Olympic games because this work

21:00

is kind of like an Olympic

21:03

game for trumpet. And if you

21:05

think of a sprinter, an hour

21:07

before a concert, they're probably stretching,

21:09

maybe they eat a banana, they're

21:11

hydrating. A very short funny story

21:13

on this, you know, Vincent D.

21:15

Martino. Good friend of mine. Apparently,

21:17

the story is like an hour

21:19

before a performance of him doing

21:21

Brandonberg. a burger, fries, and a

21:23

Coke, like an hour before the

21:25

concert. Yeah, I'm, I'm, Vince

21:28

was like a big brother to

21:30

me, and I've known him for

21:32

many years, a great, great man,

21:34

great teacher. I, I'm more in

21:37

that category. The last time I

21:39

played it, right when I got

21:41

the job in Maryland

21:43

to come down here, this 1998, Washington

21:45

Square Park, and, and I remember, sitting

21:47

on a bench, and I, hadn't had

21:49

a chance to eat that day and

21:52

I got a McDonald's Big Mac meal

21:54

and there's someone took a picture of

21:56

me. I was eating the Big Mac

21:58

meal right before playing it. Okay, so

22:00

this is maybe a thing for some

22:02

trumpet players. You know, if it's

22:04

important, it's important, if it's not

22:06

important, it's not important, so that's

22:08

the way I look at it.

22:10

I cannot eat, someone wants to

22:13

give us lasagna before a concert

22:15

and I could have thrown up. Well, I

22:17

would fall asleep in the slow movement

22:19

if I had lasagna. Now

22:21

another work I wanted to talk about

22:23

because of something you also mentioned earlier

22:26

about Trumpets and being in guilds is

22:28

Handles Messiah another big trumpet moment. I

22:30

think in the the Baroque period But

22:32

it's also one that I think at

22:34

the premiere like the trumpet players aren't

22:37

part of the orchestral guild or whatever.

22:39

They're like the separate royalty. They're on

22:41

they're there at the courtesy of the

22:43

king or whatever and their performance is

22:45

what I heard Yeah, I don't know

22:48

the details of that. I've heard things

22:50

like that. I know the very first

22:52

performance, which I think is 1741,

22:54

and I think it's in Dublin,

22:56

if I'm not mistaken. There was

22:58

actually a review of it. And

23:00

one of the flaws of the

23:02

National trumpet was a certain partial,

23:04

which is a fourth higher than

23:06

the tonic note. And so if

23:08

you're playing in C, a C,

23:10

the F above it is. kind

23:12

of in between an F and

23:14

an F sharp. And this can

23:16

be remedied in certain ways. Some

23:18

people can do it with their

23:20

lip. Box trumpet player Godfrey Freigah

23:22

had a circular horn. He could

23:25

manipulate with his hand. But in

23:27

that very first review, the critic

23:30

criticizes the trumpet player for not

23:32

adjusting that note correctly. Oh my

23:34

gosh. You come up here and

23:37

play it. Right. That's what I

23:39

would say. I started. my Messiah experience

23:41

when I was 16 and just stopped

23:43

playing it last year hundreds of times.

23:46

I want to tell a story that's

23:48

very touching but I worked a lot

23:50

with Robert Shaw, the great coral conductor,

23:53

and we were doing the Messiah and

23:55

Carnegie Hall and it was a very

23:57

busy time of your holiday time and

24:00

we're rehearsing it and the orchs was

24:02

playing a million times and we're tired

24:04

and Robert Shaw was a real gentleman

24:06

and and besides being a great

24:09

musician and he stopped and he said I

24:11

know we're all tired he said I want

24:13

to just tell you what I say to

24:15

myself often I say there'll be a lot

24:17

of people there that are hearing it

24:20

for the very first time and we all

24:22

nodded and then he said something that

24:24

just made the chills go down your spine.

24:26

He said, there'll be other people that are

24:28

hearing it for the last time that

24:30

really hit all of us. And yeah. That

24:33

is a, that's a tremendous and

24:35

very true statement. I always remember it's

24:37

sometimes the first time and something I

24:39

don't think about. Maybe it is also

24:42

the last time hearing it. Well, I

24:44

sometimes draw the analogy like you're at

24:46

the airport waiting for the, your relatives,

24:49

you know, your grandparents are coming in

24:51

on a flight and that may be

24:53

the. 15,000 time that pilot has

24:55

landed that plane, but you want

24:58

them paying attention. That's right.

25:00

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

25:02

So going into the classical

25:04

period, which is more compressed,

25:06

mid part of the 1700s,

25:08

into the early part of

25:10

the 1800s, what's happening here?

25:13

Because you hear a definite

25:15

change in the style from

25:17

Baroque, where things are less

25:19

decorated or florid or complicated

25:21

more. lyric or song like

25:23

what's happening for the trumpet here?

25:25

Well a few things and and

25:27

one thing the trumpet guilds are

25:30

weakening so the the guilds which

25:32

were a fabric of the medieval

25:34

cities cities now no longer have

25:36

walls around them it's not you

25:39

know there's more free trade the

25:41

it's it's the very very first

25:43

edges of the industrial revolution You

25:45

know, to this day, if you

25:48

go to Krakow in Poland on

25:50

the old city walls, the trumpeter

25:52

goes up there and starts to

25:54

play a call and stops midway

25:56

through, and there's some poems called

25:58

The Trumpeter of Krakow. And it's

26:00

from the 1300s when the trumpeter was

26:02

going on the old city walls

26:04

and announcing alarm enemy approaching. It was

26:07

the Mongol army. And the story

26:09

goes that an arrow hit him in

26:11

the throat midway through the bugle.

26:13

So they recreate that in Krakow, Poland

26:15

to this day. Anyway, so as

26:17

we get into the late

26:19

1700s and early 1800s, cities are

26:22

different. We know Lauren have this

26:24

sort of fortress mentality. There's more

26:26

free trade going. There's a growing

26:28

middle class. So the trumpet guilds

26:30

start to dissolve, so to speak.

26:33

There's obviously some great trumpeters around because

26:35

there was a few chariots written. But

26:37

you could almost say that the middle

26:40

class had sort of kind of

26:42

weakened. So much so

26:44

that when Mozart re -orchestrated the Messiah,

26:46

the piece we've just been talking

26:48

about, and that famous aria we

26:50

were speaking of is entitled The

26:52

Trumpet Shall Sound. In the Mozart

26:55

version of the Messiah, it's mostly

26:57

a French horn solo. Oh, no.

26:59

So that speaks volumes as to

27:01

the changing culture. The manner of

27:03

music too, I mean, Haydn

27:06

symphonies, Mozart symphonies, opera, it's just

27:08

a different view of the trumpet.

27:10

We don't have that sort of

27:12

brilliant excitement that the

27:14

broke music had. And

27:17

so the trumpets

27:19

are challenging. In fact, some of the

27:21

most challenging things we do, but they're

27:23

not very showy. In fact, I always

27:25

tell my students when you're playing a

27:27

Mozart symphony that it's

27:31

very difficult, but you will

27:33

only be noticed if you do something

27:35

wrong. So if you do a perfect job,

27:37

you're like a referee in a ball

27:39

game who called a really good game and

27:41

no one will know that you were

27:43

there. So anyway, so that happened during the

27:45

classical era. During this time in the

27:47

classical era, though, that we do have these

27:49

concertos from Anton Weitinger, Hummel, Haydn, Haydn

27:51

1796, Hummel 1803, and there were some other

27:53

works too. And

27:55

then in the mid,

27:57

around 1815, the one

27:59

of valve gets patented, now we have

28:02

the first cornet or pistons. Now

28:04

a cornet literally means in French

28:06

little horn and the first cornet

28:08

players were horn players and they

28:10

attached these valves and this is

28:12

a big thing in Paris, so

28:14

the Paris opera was the first

28:16

group to have piston cornets and

28:18

it was a man named Forestier

28:20

who was the solo cornet of

28:23

the Paris opera and this leads

28:25

to the very first appearance

28:27

of the of a valve.

28:29

Cornette in orchestra music was

28:31

around 1830, the Bailio Symphony

28:33

Fantastique. And for a while

28:35

in the early romantic era

28:37

the trumpet section would have

28:39

two natural trumpets like from

28:41

the Baroque era and two

28:43

valve cornets. And this extends

28:45

up through Chikovsky, you know,

28:48

Cricio Italian and various

28:50

other works. But by the

28:52

mid-1800 we start to see

28:54

valved trumpets proliferate. The piston

28:57

valve is patented around 1815.

28:59

The rotary valve is patented

29:02

in Vienna around 1832. And

29:04

then an advancement of the

29:06

piston valve, literally the kind

29:09

that we see today, is

29:11

patented in late 1850s. And

29:13

then we start to see

29:15

these deep-toned trumpets in low

29:17

F, low E, and low

29:19

E flat. And this is

29:21

like, you know, Parsifal, by

29:23

Wagner, Bruckner, Bruckner. Chikovsky, fifth

29:26

and fourth and fifth symphonies.

29:28

Actually, I'm sorry, the fourth

29:30

symphony, the fifth symphony, he

29:32

was writing for trumpet and

29:34

A. And this extends up

29:36

through Debussy, you know, LaMaire,

29:39

Ricker Strauss. Then in the

29:41

early 1900s, we start to

29:43

see the modern B-flat and

29:45

C- trumpets emerge. Mahler's Fifth

29:47

Symphony, written around 1905, sometime

29:49

around there, I could be

29:51

correct on this, but it

29:53

opens with an announcement from

29:55

the new B-flat trumpet, the

29:57

C-trapet starts to emerge with...

29:59

so it sounds like a hundred-year

30:02

journey basically from all these many

30:04

different types of trumpets and there's

30:06

still so many different types of trumpets

30:08

but it's coalesced now around B flat

30:11

and C in the early 1900s yes

30:13

and and that's why trumpet players have

30:15

to transpose all the time because we

30:18

are recreating music from these various eras

30:20

and where trumpets were written in different

30:22

keys so transposition is a real big

30:24

deal for us to learn how to do

30:34

So now we've moved into

30:36

the 1900s. We've heard

30:38

some of the big

30:40

concertos mentioned like Haydn

30:43

and Hummel. Some of

30:45

the orchestral parts almost

30:47

feel like concertos themselves,

30:49

Mallwers, Fifth Symphony.

30:55

This is almost like maybe the end

30:57

result of a declamatory statement for a

30:59

trumpet. I'm thinking from the beginning of

31:01

its first use all the way to

31:03

how Maurer uses it in that symphony.

31:05

Yeah, well all his symphony is used

31:07

in the trumpet. It's interesting and this

31:09

ties in again with what we were

31:12

speaking earlier. The duration of time that

31:14

a trumpet player plays in a Maurer symphony

31:16

is far less than any other instruments,

31:18

far less than the French horns for

31:20

instance. He knew what he was doing

31:22

in terms of the strenuousness. So I'm

31:24

all or a symphony, you know, pick

31:27

one or, except the third, which is

31:29

the longest, any of the others, depending

31:31

on who's conducting hour, hour 10, hour

31:33

15, whatever. And the trumpet part, if

31:35

you played it nonstop for beginning to

31:37

end, you know, softly, but just, because

31:39

I've done this. It's like 12, 14

31:42

minutes of trumpet playing. But yet, so

31:44

someone walks out of the hall and

31:46

goes, wow, those trumpets. We played less

31:48

than any other instrument on stage, except

31:51

maybe the trombones. And yet, it makes

31:53

such an impression. That's true, because another

31:55

work where that is especially true in

31:57

a particular moment, I'm thinking of Strauss's.

32:00

also Sprog Zarathustra,

32:02

which I got to play earlier

32:04

this year, but there is a

32:06

trumpet lick. It's just an octave

32:08

leap. It looks quite simple on

32:11

the page, but I don't even

32:13

look in that direction when that

32:15

part is coming up. That is

32:18

truly like all of a sudden

32:20

doing some kind of circus or

32:22

acrobatic act. We call it a

32:25

banana peel moment. In fact... You

32:27

don't really know whether you played

32:29

it right until right after you

32:32

played it. It's like, yeah. Because

32:34

it's so, it's so immediate, so

32:36

dramatic. I make a, like a car crash.

32:38

Yeah, I make a, a joke that

32:40

there was, believe it or not. a

32:43

trumpet player who sightread that piece. I

32:45

mean, because there has to be. Yeah.

32:47

And they just sort of played it.

32:49

And then ever since then, it's been

32:51

a headcase situation. Oh my gosh. But

32:53

yeah, and I've done it and, you

32:55

know, luckily I did a performance that

32:57

was recorded live and luckily I escaped

33:00

unscathed. But yeah, it's quite a moment

33:02

for sure. I never thought about what

33:04

it would be like to read that

33:06

part for the first time thinking, oh,

33:08

they made a mistake. I don't play

33:10

for how long and then I do this.

33:12

Oh, no, it must be wrong. The octave C

33:15

is not in and of itself that big

33:17

a deal. I mean, I think, you

33:19

know, there's harder things in many other

33:21

pieces, but it's just so naked. And

33:23

it's also set up that if you

33:26

mess up, it's like extremely hilarious for

33:28

everyone. It's literally like a clown

33:30

slipping on a banana peel. Yeah,

33:32

yeah. I mean, there's just not

33:34

much. You can't save it. You

33:36

can't, there's not, there's not another

33:38

half of a phrase where you

33:41

can make up for it. So

33:43

we've mentioned a little bit, there

33:45

are so many types of trumpets,

33:47

and the orchestra really coalesced in

33:49

the early 1900s around B-flat

33:51

and C, pick a low

33:53

trumpet. That is a very

33:55

small, higher sounding one. There's

33:57

the flugel horn, which is more...

34:03

The flueglehorn sounds more, it's

34:05

like a horn in a sense

34:07

because it's conical versus cylindrical, right?

34:10

Right, the flueglehorn and the euphonium

34:12

are actually sacks horns, would add

34:14

all for Antoine sacks developed. in

34:16

the mid-1800s with a short lead

34:19

pipe and the long taper of

34:21

the bell. Fluellhorn means winghorn in

34:23

German and it was originally a

34:25

military signaling instrument, evocative of the

34:28

old days of the medieval cities.

34:30

And the idea was at the

34:32

wings of a formation, whether it

34:34

was a military or hunting formation,

34:36

you would station a fluellhorn, a

34:39

wing horn, that would signal for

34:41

the formation to pivot or turn

34:43

like that. The French, who for

34:45

good reasons don't like to use

34:47

any German words for anything, refer

34:49

to the Fugelhorn as bugel. So

34:51

if you read a French piece,

34:54

it says for bugel, they mean

34:56

it for flugelhorn. We associate in

34:58

America with jazz. And Clark Terry,

35:00

it used a little bit that

35:02

the Lunsford band used flugel horns

35:05

in a section early, but the

35:07

first soloist that really... broke ground

35:09

was Clark Terry and was with a member

35:11

of the Duke Elion Orchestra and they're going

35:13

one of those state department tours and I

35:16

played in a big band that Clark led

35:18

in the 70s and and he told his

35:20

story that he got one in Italy it

35:22

was a French model of Selmer and and

35:25

one of the tunes Elion did was Perdido

35:27

by Juan Tizole. and it was a feature

35:29

for Clark and he would go out and

35:31

play a solo and he walked out on

35:33

stage with his fluellhorn and started playing and

35:36

he finished his solo and he started walking

35:38

back to the section and Duke County and

35:40

yelled out stay out there and he would

35:42

just kept playing so for then on Perdido

35:45

became a thing where Clark would play his

35:47

solo but then he would comment on the

35:49

fluellhorn with interact with the band and so

35:51

we associate with Chuck Mangion and various

35:53

people but it was really Clark

35:56

Terry who... began the association of,

35:58

and it's a great jazz. I mean,

36:00

it's phenomenal, yeah. And you've mentioned the Flugelhorn

36:02

being popular in jazz, and that's how we've

36:04

seen the trumpet really branch out into every

36:06

genre of music it sounds like in the

36:09

last 60-70 years into the 20th and 21st

36:11

centuries. The Trump is basically everywhere. Yeah, and

36:13

I would say, I have... No problem saying

36:15

that Lewis Armstrong is the most influential brass

36:18

player in the 20th century. And if someone

36:20

wants to really quibble with me, that's fine,

36:22

but he's going to be in the conversation.

36:24

And he was at one point the most

36:26

recognized person on earth. He would show up

36:29

in Europe and they were talking about the

36:31

early 30s and there would be... tens of

36:33

thousands of people at the stations. He made

36:35

some of the very first really million dollar

36:37

selling records, the hot fives and hot sevens

36:40

in the late 1920s, and he revolutionized the

36:42

trumpet. And he actually, his whole career was

36:44

amazing. I mean, as an elderly man, late

36:46

in his career, when he did Mac the

36:48

knife, he actually replaced the Beatles on the

36:51

top 40, you know, you know, it's unbelievable

36:53

what he did. But it's also. very significant

36:55

what he did in terms of expression, rhythm.

36:57

He revolutionized music in so many ways. And

36:59

jazz is, you know, I get up, my

37:02

students will start rolling their eyes at this,

37:04

so I sort of get on a soapbox

37:06

about this. We use the word classical a

37:08

lot. And classical can mean several things. It

37:10

can mean generally the Western canon, in other

37:13

words, the music that we start with, Italy,

37:15

in the renaissance and spreading throughout Europe. And

37:17

so we call Western music, whether it's Monteverdi

37:19

or Servinsky, we call that classical music. It

37:21

can mean specifically the classical era, which means

37:24

the death of Bach in 1750, to perhaps,

37:26

I don't know, the Eroika Symphony in the

37:28

early 1800s. That's exactly what I say. And

37:30

then the other meaning, which I like the

37:32

most, is it means... That is

37:35

beyond fad or opinion.

37:37

So and I think

37:39

in that sense jazz

37:41

is America's classical music

37:43

Contribution to world culture

37:46

and it's this is

37:48

something that's recognized more

37:50

overseas than in America

37:52

sadly, but yeah, but

37:54

And and the thing

37:57

I would say you

37:59

don't have to like

38:01

it I mean you

38:03

don't have to like

38:05

Thelonious Monk or Sonny

38:08

Rollins or or Billie

38:10

Holiday, but no one

38:12

will Replace them they're

38:14

there no matter what

38:16

any of us think

38:19

similarly you don't have

38:21

to like Brookner or

38:23

Debussy, you know, but

38:25

but they're there and

38:27

they're not going to

38:30

go anywhere, right? So

38:32

in that sense jazz

38:34

is to me a

38:36

classical music and sometimes

38:38

people Sort

38:41

of cast shade on that meaning

38:43

I'm trying to promote that it becomes

38:45

sort of stiff and formal And that's

38:47

a disservice to the Western canon because

38:49

the great Western composers Bach Mozart Beethoven

38:51

up through Franz Liszt We're all

38:53

great improvisers and improvisation was a part

38:55

of the Western canon and to some

38:57

degree, you know Faded in there in

38:59

the first half of the 20th century.

39:02

I think it's coming back more

39:04

now So yeah, I think so and

39:06

the trumpet is an instrument. That's like

39:08

you said, it's Like you said with

39:10

those people it's there. Yeah, it's not

39:12

going anywhere I don't think anybody

39:14

and I don't think anyone's gonna disagree

39:16

with you on that Especially since you

39:18

described earlier the trumpet being also like

39:20

a combat weapon. So I'm not gonna

39:23

fight you on that one Yeah,

39:25

I mean Lewis would in new as

39:27

a young man in New Orleans would

39:29

he talked about Buddy Bolden calling the

39:31

crowd You know from from over the

39:33

river, you know, it's that that

39:35

sort of announcement kind of thing And

39:37

then it then beautifully soft I mean

39:39

some of the ballads with Miles Davis

39:41

I mean, it's just it it brought

39:43

a range of expression to the

39:46

trumpet that I don't think anyone has

39:48

ever approached Even Mahler or people we're

39:50

talking about. I mean, it's really indelible

39:52

in our culture Range

39:57

of expression I

39:59

love that phrase. I

40:01

think that's all that up

40:03

perfectly. We're going to take a quick

40:05

break and then right after that we're

40:07

going to hear you

40:10

play the trumpet. Classical

40:12

Breakdown, Your Guide to Classical

40:14

Music, is brought to you

40:16

by WETA Classical. Join us

40:18

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40:21

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40:23

where you'll also find educational

40:25

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40:27

WETA Classical playlist, and our

40:29

blog, Classical Score. Find all

40:32

that and more at WETA

40:34

Classical.org. Okay,

40:36

now one of our favorite parts where we

40:39

get to hear you play. What is the

40:41

first thing you're going to play for us,

40:43

Chris? Well, it will be the opening of

40:45

the fourth movement, the finale of

40:47

Dvorjak's Eighth Symphony. And it opens

40:49

with two trumpets playing in unison. A

40:52

fanfare. These were written, the part is

40:54

written for the D trumpet. And in

40:56

modern days, the D trumpet is a

40:58

rather small instrument higher than the B-flat.

41:01

But Dvorjak was writing for a deep-toned

41:03

D trumpet. similar to the instruments I

41:05

referred to earlier when I was talking

41:08

about the low F, low E, low

41:10

E flat trumpets. So this was a

41:12

large instrument in D. We spoke about

41:15

transposition. I'm playing on a B flat

41:17

trumpet, which I enjoy playing a lot,

41:19

and so the notes that I see on

41:21

the page I have to transpose up a

41:23

major third. Fantastic

41:47

Chris and I love the

41:49

declamatory nature of this fanfare

41:51

in the symphony. I've seen

41:53

it described as not a

41:55

fanfare for some kind of

41:57

military action but a fanfare

42:00

or an invitation to a dance.

42:02

Exactly, I think the whole symphony

42:04

is like a folk dance. And

42:06

right after this, we have this

42:08

very gentle melody in the cellos.

42:10

And it's almost like the trumpet's

42:12

calling everyone to the dance floor,

42:14

and then we're gonna have this

42:16

sort of very tender dance. And

42:18

you said you're playing the B-fly

42:20

trumpet? Yes. So when you have

42:23

something like DeVorgiok, you said it

42:25

was written for maybe like a

42:27

D, something different? In this case,

42:29

yeah. playing something like this on

42:31

B flat, do you mentally have

42:33

to go somewhere or do something

42:35

to play in a particular style

42:37

that that other instrument is embodying?

42:39

Well I'm not sure that we

42:41

think too historically here we're trying

42:44

to play in tune and get

42:46

the right sort of orchestral sound

42:48

which should be brilliant but warm.

42:50

We do not want to be

42:52

ever be strident. It should carry

42:54

and have power but not be

42:56

shrill. In this case, the two

42:58

trumpet playing in unison and it's

43:00

a challenge to play it well

43:02

in tune, particularly that last low

43:05

note, with the diminuendo, so getting

43:07

all those things in order. And

43:09

there's a lot involved. Orchestral music

43:11

on the surface can often be

43:13

very simple, but simple things, like

43:15

playing taps at a funeral, can

43:17

often be quite difficult. Yes. And

43:19

we can talk about that for

43:21

a second because... Some might think,

43:23

oh, you play soft, you diminuendo,

43:26

when you diminuendo, when you get

43:28

softer, it's, you're just getting softer

43:30

and it's easier. But the muscles

43:32

required to hold everything in place

43:34

to play in tune and not

43:36

shake and all that stuff while

43:38

you're soft is quite a lot.

43:40

It takes a lot of control

43:42

to play that, as you said,

43:44

in tune and diminuendo. Well, every

43:47

brass instrument is based on the

43:49

internal compression that we all establish

43:51

when we play. And compression, which

43:53

is also... higher pressure. Now high

43:55

pressure sometimes, often brass teachers are

43:57

teaching, you have to play with

43:59

less pressure, but pressure is part

44:01

of sound. at higher pressure equals

44:03

higher notes. When a brass instrument

44:05

is climbing, ascending into the high

44:07

register, and crescendoing, we're actually getting

44:10

more and more efficient. And as

44:12

we descend and get softer, we're

44:14

actually losing efficiency. So that's the

44:16

hardest part of controlling. That's one

44:18

of the characteristics of a really

44:20

good orchestral player, and much of

44:22

what we practice is how to

44:24

diminuendo while we're... descending and that's

44:26

something overlooked by a lot of

44:28

people because this is sort of

44:31

like the glittery object in the

44:33

room you know a brass and

44:35

soaring in high registers what we

44:37

all are drawing attention to and

44:39

we figure the opposite of that

44:41

must be very easy it's actually

44:43

harder to do it's again I'll

44:45

bring back the airplane thing you

44:47

know takeoffs are usually okay landings

44:49

are often quite difficult because a

44:52

plane also as it climbs into

44:54

the atmosphere is increasing its internal

44:56

pressure and becoming more stable. As

44:58

we descend we're losing that depression.

45:00

Same with weather. High pressure zone.

45:02

It has blue skies, calm weather.

45:04

Low pressure is stormy, cold front.

45:06

Really low pressure is a hurricane

45:08

with a barometer dropping. So that's

45:10

exactly that sort of analogy. Okay,

45:13

I love that. What is another

45:15

thing you can play for us.

45:17

This is a trumpet solo from

45:19

George Gershwin's American in Paris. That

45:56

was so beautiful Chris. It's also

45:59

one of my favorite solos from

46:01

the piece American in Paris except

46:03

the tuba solo of course that

46:05

happens later. But tell us about

46:07

the the sound here and your

46:10

approach to this. Gershwin writes to

46:12

be played on a with a

46:14

felt crown which means sort of

46:16

a hat over the bell and

46:18

I'm just using a regular old

46:21

rain hat. I want to say

46:23

something about mutes that relates to

46:25

the jazz discussion earlier. The origin

46:27

of mutes goes back very centuries

46:29

in Europe and Keep in mind,

46:32

again, what I said earlier about

46:34

the trumpet was always an instrument

46:36

associated with royalty, monarchy, and such,

46:38

and used in court to announce

46:40

and celebrate, you know, coronations, weddings,

46:43

victories, and such, but funerals as

46:45

well. Okay. This is according to

46:47

some British histories that I've read.

46:49

The early mutes was an expression

46:51

of the court to express mourning

46:53

so the brass players would put

46:56

these objects in the bells and

46:58

instruments mute or dampen the sound

47:00

and this was to... Show how

47:02

sad the occasion was okay, and

47:04

the first use of the mute

47:07

in concert music is Monteveri opera

47:09

in the early 1600s and To

47:11

this day, if an instrumentalist sees

47:13

a straight mute or just regular

47:15

mute, that's the mute we mean,

47:18

which is the European straight mute,

47:20

which can be loud or soft.

47:22

In fact, Richard Strauss says in

47:24

his orchestration discussion is that the

47:26

loudest trumpet is using with a

47:29

metal straight mute. And of course,

47:31

he's talking about German trumpets, which

47:33

tend to be darker, so if

47:35

you want to cut through using

47:37

that metal mute. Every other mute.

47:40

comes from the jazz tradition specifically

47:42

from New Orleans. So the bucket

47:44

hat, plunger, even the harmony which

47:46

was patented in Chicago, but it

47:48

was patented by a man who

47:51

had watched King Oliver. Oliver who

47:53

was a New Orleans cornetist playing

47:55

in Chicago who had invented a

47:57

mute of that design. So every

47:59

other mute other than the European

48:02

straight mute, the consordino as they

48:04

say in European music, is a

48:06

development from the jazz tradition. I

48:08

didn't quite know that that other

48:10

than the straight mute, yet it

48:13

was all from jazz and the

48:15

ones that you said are... The

48:17

names describe themselves, the hat, which

48:19

is what you're using right now,

48:21

the hat over a bell or

48:23

a crown royal bag, which is

48:26

what you see often, or a

48:28

plunger, the Harmon mute, that is

48:30

harder to describe. I'll put a

48:32

picture up on the show notes

48:34

page, but that's Miles Davis. Well,

48:37

yeah, it was, it started as

48:39

kind of a wall-wam mute, and

48:41

it does have a little cup,

48:43

and in cartoons you can sort

48:45

of go like a laughing. took

48:48

that cup out and played it

48:50

and he also played it always

48:52

into a microphone. So it had

48:54

a particular smoky kind of very

48:56

internal midnight kind of sound when

48:59

you hear and play ballads on

49:01

the Harmon Mute. Yeah. And I'll

49:03

put some video on the show

49:05

notes page demonstrating some of that

49:07

aspect, especially the the Wawa. aspect

49:10

of the Harmon Mute, you got

49:12

to see it. What is the

49:14

last thing you're going to play

49:16

for us, Chris? This is the

49:18

opening of Eriki Ways and Sonata

49:21

for trumpet and piano, which he

49:23

composed in 1995, and this is

49:25

a piece that he and I

49:27

recorded that same year, and he's

49:29

on the piano. I've been involved

49:32

with composers my whole life, and

49:34

it's always been a... a big

49:36

part of my career to work

49:38

with composers. And in fact, Eric

49:40

and I are from the same

49:43

class at Eastman School of Music.

49:45

So I played his music all

49:47

the way through school. And by

49:49

the way, this past year, I

49:51

solo recording of his Sonata No.

49:54

2 was released. And so here

49:56

we are 50 years later still

49:58

working closely together. Eric has been

50:00

on the fact. at Juilliard for

50:02

many many years. I was on

50:04

the faculty for 12 years there

50:07

before coming here to Maryland so

50:09

Erg is a very dear friend

50:11

and we've been closely close collaborators

50:13

over decades. This is a piece

50:16

that has become one of

50:18

the most performed sonatas for

50:20

trumpet piano in the world and

50:22

by some accountings the most performed.

50:24

but certainly one of the top

50:26

few. It's essentially a piece that

50:29

is traditional harmonically, but also very

50:31

modern in many ways. I mean,

50:33

Eric. writes for the trumpet in

50:35

a way that I don't think

50:37

anyone else has ever done so

50:40

he in the second movement which

50:42

you won't hear you know the

50:44

trumpet states a melody the beginning

50:46

is sort of a folk-like melody

50:49

that has a Scottish snap to

50:51

it very beautiful and then the trumpet

50:53

kind of curves underneath the piano and

50:55

is a sense accompanying the piano and

50:58

this is not a traditional role of

51:00

the trumpet the trumpet has always been

51:02

sort of associated with leadership you know,

51:04

everyone get behind the trumpet and follow.

51:07

And for the trumpet to act more

51:09

almost like a viola in a string

51:11

quartet and be very supportive of another

51:13

voice, even another soft voice, this is

51:16

something that Eric demands in his music.

51:18

And I think it's very, very important.

51:20

It's an evolution and sometimes, you

51:23

know, a very avant-garde piece for

51:25

trumpet, which may be very striking

51:27

and groundbreaking in some ways, is...

51:29

ultra-traditional because it's the trumpet sort

51:32

of blazing the way and here

51:34

Eric in his own quiet way

51:36

speaking in traditional language is Actually

51:38

in turn a very revolutionary in

51:41

his conception of what the trumpet

51:43

can do Erica

52:04

Waysen is a composer, many of

52:06

our listeners might not be familiar

52:08

with, but I'm thinking of something

52:10

you said earlier, you know, Bach

52:12

sounds like Bach. And also for

52:14

me, growing up, playing Awaisen's music

52:16

and all of that, it has

52:18

a very particular type of sound.

52:20

And usually you're pretty excited when

52:22

you're, especially growing up, playing in

52:24

a brass quintet, and you see

52:26

Awaisen put down on your stand.

52:29

Right. I mean this is a

52:31

story, this goes back, so in

52:33

the early, mid-1980s, I was on

52:35

the faculty at the Aspen Music Festival

52:37

for many summers, and one summer met

52:39

Barrio, the Italian composer, and

52:41

he had written his sequenza for

52:44

solo trumpet, for Tom Stevens, principal

52:46

trumpet of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.

52:48

And I got to know Mr.

52:50

Barrio, and he... discussed me perhaps

52:53

doing a New York premiere of the

52:55

piece, which I did the next year.

52:57

And Eric was at the concert. And

52:59

afterwards we went out with some friends

53:01

and were sitting next to each other

53:03

and talking. And I said, Eric, you

53:05

should write a piece for the American

53:07

Brassota group that I had auditioned for

53:09

and joined in 1981. And he said,

53:12

I'm going to, I think like, because

53:14

he had not written. Nebraska that so

53:16

the next year Colchester fantasy comes out

53:18

and that's his first and that really

53:20

Led to all his brass writing. He

53:22

says it himself that that everything

53:24

sort of Came from that same

53:27

kind of initial venture into brass

53:29

music and and in the American

53:31

Brass Company that became a signature

53:33

piece for us. We recorded it

53:35

very I mean scores of times

53:37

use it as our final piece

53:39

on recitals and and and then

53:41

he wrote other music for us

53:44

and for other people. This trumpet

53:46

sonata was actually commissioned by the

53:48

International Trump Guild and Eric and

53:50

I gave the Premier at the

53:52

International Trump Guild Convention in

53:54

1995 in Bloomington, Indiana. And

53:57

yeah, it was my goal for years to get

53:59

him to run. a second sonata. These things

54:01

are not easy. I wanted to

54:03

raise the funds and make sure

54:05

it went to, and it took

54:07

10 to 12 years to get,

54:09

in fact I was doing a

54:11

recitals in Japan in 2018 in

54:13

Tokyo and Kyoto. And Eric's music

54:15

is loved there. I mean, people

54:17

came from far south and Q-shoo,

54:19

far north, and Hokkaido to come

54:21

here. The pianist, who was this

54:24

wonderful pianist in Tokyo, she is

54:26

a professor at one of the

54:28

music schools there, and she knew

54:30

it by memory, for instance. I

54:32

mean, and that's quite a piano

54:34

part. So anyway, we played the

54:36

first sonata, and then we played

54:38

a couple movements of what was

54:40

to be his second sonata. And

54:42

it's kind of interesting. I mean,

54:44

it was just, you know, it

54:46

was good, but, you know, it's

54:48

like, Eric decided to go back

54:50

to the drawing board. And so

54:52

in 2022, he came out with

54:54

his second sonata, and it's beautiful.

54:56

I mean, it's just, so recording

54:58

just came out last March, and

55:00

we're very fortunate to have some

55:02

nice reviews and things, and it's

55:04

exciting. It's a quiet trumpet sonata,

55:07

literally, I mean, the outer movements

55:09

are slow, and the middle movements

55:11

fast, and has some... flashy things

55:13

in it, but it both opens

55:15

and ends with these very poetic

55:17

nocturns for trumpet and piano. And

55:19

in a sense, Eric was, like

55:21

some other composers, he was expressing

55:23

some of his ideas that had

55:25

come up through the COVID lockdown,

55:27

the isolation that all of us

55:29

felt, and then... a lot of

55:31

the news, you know, in the

55:33

world today, I mean, was taking

55:35

a sort of a somber look

55:37

at. And so it's a very,

55:39

it's a beautiful, some of the

55:41

most beautiful music for a trumpet

55:43

piano I've ever heard in my

55:45

life. And, and just think about

55:47

the comparison here of where our

55:50

conversation started. You're talking now about

55:52

a trumpet in this piece. It

55:54

opens, you know, it's very, you

55:56

know, slow or serene and soft

55:58

in the opening in the end.

56:00

We were talking about it used

56:02

as a military... combat weapon and

56:04

sending a military signal, you know,

56:06

thousands of years, you know, BCE,

56:08

that is quite a journey. And

56:10

that's one thing I love about

56:12

music and what we do is

56:14

that it is an art form

56:16

that has just traced back thousands

56:18

of years and it's still alive.

56:20

Music's not going anywhere. I think

56:22

humans have a. part of our

56:24

DNA loves music and becoming a

56:26

professional musician is something quite different.

56:28

That requires a lot of specialized

56:31

training, but I think every human,

56:33

I was once backstage with Went

56:35

Marcellus after a concert and as

56:37

usually, you know, he always had

56:39

a huge crowd around him and

56:41

this... This lady was shaking his

56:43

hand and said, you know, how

56:45

much she loved the music he

56:47

did. And she said, yeah, I

56:49

don't have any music in me.

56:51

And Win said, listen to yourself

56:53

talk, listen to your senses. You

56:55

know, all humans have music. It's

56:57

just, it's built in our DNA.

56:59

Well, there is a question that

57:01

I love to ask because there's

57:03

always some great answers. But if

57:05

you don't have an answer, that's

57:07

fine or if you need to

57:09

change names or countries or places

57:11

or places or whatever. feel free.

57:14

And I'm just wondering what has

57:16

been maybe your wildest, strangest, interestingest,

57:18

or just crazy experience on stage?

57:20

Well, I have an answer ready

57:22

for you because I've had this

57:24

question before and I've had many.

57:26

I mean, I've... join the union

57:28

midway through high school and I've

57:30

been a member of the union

57:32

for way over 50 years so

57:34

I have a lot of great

57:36

memories a lot of things I

57:38

can't remember too I mean so

57:40

yeah anyway when I was in

57:42

the American Brass Quintet we did

57:44

a tour of Asia in my

57:46

second year there and that involved

57:48

Japan and People's Republic of China

57:50

and And I'm talking, it was

57:52

a five week tour, so we

57:54

were over there a good long

57:57

time. We were the second Western

57:59

group to go to the People's

58:01

Republic of China after the. revolution.

58:03

In fact, Dr. Chau Wen Chung

58:05

was a professor at Columbia University,

58:07

gave us these trunks full of

58:09

music, which were, you know, Beethoven

58:11

string quartets and Mozart piano sonata

58:13

and such, because during the cultural

58:15

revolution, China, much of this music

58:17

had been destroyed in bonfires and

58:19

such. Anyway, it was terrific, and

58:21

the people there were wonderful, and

58:23

we had the greatest time. We

58:25

were in Shanghai. and playing

58:27

a concert and it was in

58:29

a big hall, there's about 3,000

58:31

people in attendance and the lady

58:33

from the Ministry of Culture told

58:35

us that there would be close

58:38

to 9 million people listening on

58:40

the radio. Now the radio had

58:42

one station, you know, so anyway,

58:44

we were playing, we had a thing

58:46

in there, which was what we

58:48

called Americana suite, which featured music

58:50

of Stephen Foster. and we started

58:52

playing a beautiful dreamer which

58:55

started with a horn solo

58:57

and suddenly I was aware

58:59

all of us aware of

59:01

the entire audience singing long

59:03

very softly in Chinese and

59:06

it was first of all

59:08

quite beautiful there's something about

59:10

3,000 people singing you know

59:12

pianissimo or extremely softly that's

59:14

that's very ethereal and just

59:17

and and beautifully done. And

59:19

after the concert, the lady

59:21

from the ministry culture said, yes,

59:23

that's a very popular song here and

59:25

we have our own words and such

59:28

like that. But I'll never forget that

59:30

hair on my neck stood up, and

59:32

just to be on stage and you're

59:34

in this place. And by the way,

59:36

in those days, China was a different

59:38

country. There were no Westerners there. There

59:41

was no skyscrapers. Everyone was wearing Mao

59:43

jackets. It was just a different country

59:45

than it has been now for some

59:47

years. And many people there had never

59:49

seen a Western before. We would walk

59:52

in the streets and crowds would follow

59:54

us because we were so different looking.

59:56

Anyway, that experience on that stage, hearing

59:58

that crowd singing. and it's one of

1:00:01

those moments when you realize, you know,

1:00:03

we're sort of all human beings and

1:00:05

how universal music is. And it was

1:00:07

very touching. When I think of it

1:00:09

today, I still am quite moved by

1:00:11

that memory. That's so wonderful. I love

1:00:14

that story from you, Chris. And as

1:00:16

musicians, when you're on stage, you are

1:00:18

so locked into what is happening to

1:00:20

the person next to you and around

1:00:22

you, the next line, entrance, etc. that

1:00:24

when you... hear something from an audience

1:00:27

sometimes at first thought is like maybe

1:00:29

fear or something's happening but when you

1:00:31

get that experience of they're just joining

1:00:33

in with you I imagine that had

1:00:35

to be as you described it just

1:00:37

quite ethereal when you hear the slow

1:00:40

murmur of Chinese of the melody you're

1:00:42

playing and of course the three thousand

1:00:44

of them were perfectly in tune yeah

1:00:46

that's one where I wish someone had

1:00:48

a tape running or something Well, thank

1:00:50

you so much Chris has been this

1:00:53

has been so illuminating learning all things

1:00:55

about the trumpet and hearing you play

1:00:57

and your experiences Thank you John. I

1:00:59

really am grateful to have been here.

1:01:01

Thank you very much Thanks

1:01:05

for listening to Classical Breakdown,

1:01:07

Your Guide to Classical Music.

1:01:10

For more information on this

1:01:12

episode, visit the Show Notes

1:01:14

page at Classical Breakdown.org. You

1:01:16

can send me comments and

1:01:19

episode ideas to Classical Breakdown

1:01:21

at WTA.org, and if you

1:01:23

enjoy this episode, leave a

1:01:25

review on your podcast app.

1:01:28

I'm John Banther. Thanks for

1:01:30

listening to Classical Breakdown from

1:01:32

WETA Classical.