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that's Clever Podcast.com/survey. Thank you

2:02

in advance for filling out

2:05

the survey, and as always,

2:07

thank you for listening. Good

2:10

evening. What you are about

2:12

to witness is an unrefers,

2:14

uncensored interview. My name is

2:17

Mike Wallace. The cigarette is

2:19

Philip Morris. Tonight, we go

2:22

after the story of one

2:24

of the most extraordinary men

2:26

of our time. You see

2:29

him behind me. He's 88-year-old

2:31

Frank Lloyd Wright, perhaps the

2:34

greatest architect of the 20th

2:36

century, and in the opinion

2:39

of some of America's formal

2:41

social rebels. I feel large.

2:43

I feel at large and

2:46

encouraged. Intensify more powerful. Because

2:48

why? Because in one instance,

2:51

you're inspired by nature. And

2:53

the other instance, you're inspired

2:55

by an artificiality contrary to

2:58

nature. Am I clear? You

3:00

are clear, although I must

3:03

say that I don't agree,

3:05

because whatever inspires press every

3:07

action of the sort, we

3:10

give ourselves the way. Somebody

3:12

said the museum out here,

3:15

because they have no look

3:17

like a washing machine. This

3:19

one is your building. That's

3:22

one of my buildings. Well,

3:24

I've heard a lot of

3:27

that type of reaction, and

3:29

I've always discounted it, as

3:32

worthless, and I think it

3:34

is. I understand that last

3:36

week in all seriousness you

3:39

said if I had another

3:41

15 years to work I

3:44

could rebuild this entire country

3:46

I could change the nation.

3:48

I did say that and

3:51

it's true. was busy in

3:53

Chicago developing the design of

3:56

the ill-fated midway gardens, concert

3:58

venue, and summer garden. Some

4:00

200 miles northwest in Spring

4:03

Green, Wisconsin. Martha Borthwick, a

4:05

translator, librarian, and Wright's longtime

4:08

mistress, was just sitting down

4:10

to lunch with her two

4:13

children on the porch of

4:15

the couple's country retreat

4:18

that Wright had

4:20

dubbed Taliescen. Though

4:22

almost everyone else called

4:24

it the love cottage, or

4:26

Wright's love castle. Wright had

4:29

met Borthwick, who everyone called

4:31

Mamah, a decade earlier when

4:33

she and her then husband

4:35

Edwin Cheney, had hired Wright,

4:37

who also happened to be

4:39

their neighbor, to design a

4:41

new home for them. Wright

4:44

was immediately taken with Cheney's

4:46

wife and set about wooing

4:48

her. The couple developed what

4:50

was referred to by outside

4:52

observers as an open closeness,

4:54

and what insiders called a

4:56

deep... and deeply scandalous love.

4:59

Wright was married with six

5:01

children at that time. Bothwick

5:03

had two. Wright, 47 years

5:05

old and already considered one

5:08

of America's greatest architects, was

5:10

a sought-after media darling. He

5:13

could always be counted on

5:15

for a controversial quote that

5:18

would sell papers. He had

5:20

almost single-handedly created American modernism.

5:22

and was perhaps the single

5:25

biggest critic of American

5:27

moralism. Wright famously decreed

5:29

that there was one set of

5:31

societal rules for the ordinary person,

5:34

and another set of rules, which

5:36

in Wright's parlance really meant no

5:39

rules, for intellectual heavy weights, or

5:41

as he liked to say, geniuses.

5:43

And in his mind, and many

5:46

others, he very squarely sat in

5:48

the rarefied corner of the latter.

5:51

Wright's notoriety obviously did not

5:53

help the couple's attempts at

5:55

a hush-hush affair. They first fled

5:57

to Europe in 1909 to escape the...

6:00

glaring lights, prying eyes, and

6:02

general scorn being heaped upon

6:04

them from all sides. On

6:06

this trip, Mamon or husband

6:08

officially divorced, but Wright's wife

6:10

Catherine refused, leaving Wright's critics

6:12

seething. Despite the six children

6:15

he and Catherine shared and

6:17

Catherine's refusal to grant a

6:19

divorce, Wright effectively checked out

6:21

of his family's life. Upon

6:23

Wright and Mamon's return to

6:25

the States, Wright purchased property

6:27

in Spring Green, Wisconsin, and

6:29

set about building a fantastic

6:31

mansion which he would call

6:33

Taliesin, or Shining Brow in

6:35

Welsh, where Mamon and her

6:37

children could escape the ridicule

6:39

of the press and neighbors,

6:41

and she and Wright could

6:43

enjoy their torrid and now

6:45

very public affair. The

6:48

peace and tranquility would

6:50

not last long. One grisly

6:52

summer afternoon, two years

6:54

after moving to Spring Green,

6:56

Wright and Mamon's world

6:58

would very literally go up

7:00

in flames. I'm

7:07

Amy Devers, and this is

7:10

Clever Confidential, where we dig

7:12

into the lesser -told stories

7:14

of the darker side of

7:16

design, the shadowy, sometimes sordid

7:18

tales hiding under a glossy

7:20

top coat of respectable legacy.

7:23

This is Episode 3, Frank

7:25

Lloyd Wright and the Murders

7:27

at Taliesin. As

7:31

always, here to help me tell

7:33

this truly shocking tale is writer

7:35

and editor Andrew Wagner. Mamon

7:39

and her two children, John

7:42

12 and Martha 8, were sitting

7:44

down to lunch at Taliesin

7:46

East in Spring Green on that

7:48

summer afternoon. Taliesin

7:50

was a hive of

7:53

activity, as it generally was,

7:55

with many of Wright's

7:57

gardeners, draftsmen, carpenters and colleagues

7:59

running about, working on far-flung

8:01

projects as well as Talieson itself. As was

8:04

common at the time, Talieson

8:06

also employed a number of

8:08

servants, including a recent

8:10

hire from Barbados, Julian

8:12

Carlton. As Mamon and her children

8:14

sat down to lunch on the front

8:17

porch, 25 feet away the workers

8:19

ate their soup at another table, when

8:21

suddenly a 19-year-old draftsman,

8:24

Herbert Fritz, noticed something

8:26

unusual. We heard a switch

8:28

as though water was thrown through

8:30

the screen door, Fritz would later

8:33

recall. Then we saw some fluid

8:35

coming under the door. It looked

8:37

like dishwater. It spread out all

8:39

over the floor. Carlton had

8:41

just served lunch to Mamah

8:43

and her children. When he turned

8:45

to his wife Gertrude, also a

8:48

servant of rights, and instructed her

8:50

to leave. He then returned to

8:52

the porch with a hatchet and

8:55

brutally attacked Mamah and the kids.

8:57

When he finished his unbelievable

8:59

act of cruelty on the

9:01

porch, he quickly doused the

9:04

floors with gasoline. The dishwater-like

9:06

liquid Fritz had noticed, while

9:08

slamming the door, locking it,

9:10

and sending the whole house

9:13

into flames. In the frenzy that

9:15

followed, Drasman Emil Brodale, Handyman

9:17

Thomas Bunker, and Ernest Weston,

9:19

the son of rights carpenter

9:21

and master craftsman, William Weston.

9:23

would meet the same grisly

9:25

fate as may monitor children.

9:27

While it is safe to

9:29

assume there could be no

9:32

fate worse than being engulfed

9:34

by flames, the five unlucky

9:36

souls that frantically fled for

9:38

their lives that afternoon would

9:40

meet an end just as

9:42

fatal. Waiting on the porch,

9:44

acts in hand, Carlton made

9:46

quick work of each individual

9:49

as they unwittingly jumped from

9:51

one horrible end to another. Carlton

9:53

swung his axe. in frenetic

9:55

fashion, as his former colleagues

9:57

broke through the barricaded door.

10:00

jumped from a nearby window into

10:02

the courtyard. Fritz,

10:04

the 19 -year -old draftsman, had managed

10:06

to escape the burning house

10:08

and by rolling down a nearby

10:10

hill put out the flames

10:12

that had consumed his hair and

10:14

clothes only to look back

10:16

and witness Carlton's continued attacks. Ernest

10:20

Weston, the master craftsman who

10:22

had built Taliessen and gardener

10:24

David Lindblum would also manage

10:26

to escape and run more

10:28

than a half a mile

10:30

to the nearest house with

10:32

a telephone, quickly alerting authorities

10:34

to the atrocity. As residents

10:37

and police ran to the

10:39

scene they found the bodies

10:41

of Mehma, Martha, her daughter,

10:43

John her son, Ernest Weston,

10:45

Thomas Bunker, and Emil Brodell.

10:47

Lindblum, the gardener who had

10:49

escaped, would later die due

10:51

to complications from burns. In

10:54

the span of 20 minutes

10:56

seven people had died tragically at

10:58

the hands of one man,

11:00

but why? Carlton

11:02

was found in the basement

11:04

hours later, barely conscious after having

11:06

swallowed myriotic acid. He would

11:08

die seven weeks later from starvation,

11:11

having never provided a motive

11:13

for the horror he inflicted that

11:15

day. His wife

11:17

would later say that he seemed to

11:19

be suffering from a mental break

11:21

in the weeks leading up to the

11:23

attacks, while some of his colleagues

11:25

at Taliessen would claim that he had

11:27

been the recipient of racial slurs

11:29

in the preceding days, possibly inciting an

11:31

incendiary rage. Still

11:34

others have claimed that Mehma

11:36

had told Carlton and his wife

11:38

that they were to be

11:40

fired, perhaps even that afternoon. Though

11:43

the brutal crime was an open

11:45

and shut case, the motive remains a

11:48

mystery to this day. I

12:00

think it is. I think any

12:02

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12:05

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12:07

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That's Stamps .com/program. This

14:46

story is the one that got Clever Confidential

14:48

started. We were curious as to why more

14:50

people didn't know about it. While everyone

14:52

knows Frank Lloyd Wright, how could

14:54

it be that this gruesome chapter

14:56

remains underreported? Was it Wright's

14:58

own seeming unwillingness to confront the

15:00

demons of this tragedy? Did

15:03

he court disaster with his flagrant

15:06

flaunting of moral norms? Wright

15:09

is famously quoted as saying, laws

15:11

and rules are made for the average.

15:13

The ordinary man cannot live without rules

15:15

to guide his conduct. It is

15:18

infinitely more difficult to live without

15:20

rules. But that is

15:22

what the really honest, sincere

15:24

thinking man is compelled to

15:26

do. We wanted to

15:28

know how this and other

15:30

tragedies surrounding America's greatest architect affected

15:32

the man and even the

15:34

architecture itself. We wanted to

15:36

know how Wright's beloved home state of

15:38

Wisconsin shaped him in this event and

15:40

subsequently how this event has

15:42

shaped Wisconsin. How is

15:44

it perceived in Wisconsin versus the rest of

15:46

the world? Did the rest

15:48

of the world turn a blind

15:50

eye to the architect's seemingly sociopathic

15:52

tendencies because they were so enamored

15:54

of the architectural genius to

15:58

help us gain some cultural context? We

16:00

asked Chicago -based architect Brad

16:02

Lynch, himself a Wisconsinite like

16:04

Wright, to help us paint

16:06

a picture of the place,

16:08

the profession, and the sometimes

16:10

twisted, sometimes tragic nature of

16:12

creative professions. My name is

16:14

Brad Lynch. I'm in Chicago,

16:16

Illinois. And I'm the founding

16:18

principal of the architecture and

16:20

design firm Brennan Stolen Lynch.

16:22

I was born in Racine,

16:25

Wisconsin. The youngest of five

16:27

children. I was the only

16:29

one born in the United

16:31

States. My dad's from Ottawa,

16:33

Ontario. And my mom's from

16:35

New York. And they moved

16:37

to Racine, Wisconsin just before

16:39

I was born. And I

16:41

grew up there until I

16:43

went away to school. I

16:45

lived just a couple of

16:47

doors down from a Frank

16:49

Lloyd Wright house. I think

16:51

that, you know, the aesthetic

16:53

that he developed, which I

16:55

think was his own, you

16:58

know, it's certainly like all things

17:00

are his influence. You can't say that

17:02

he started from scratch and just

17:04

came up with these ideas. But he

17:06

did make them his own. He

17:08

made them his own in terms of

17:11

design and capability and talent. But,

17:13

you know, he always had to have

17:15

a story behind it in order

17:17

to sell it. First of all, you

17:19

know, you got to remember the

17:21

general public only knows two names of

17:23

architects in America. Right. One is

17:25

Thomas. Right is one

17:27

of them. And the other one is Thomas Jefferson. And the

17:29

only reason they know his name is because he was president.

17:33

And the other thing is that architects,

17:35

you can't get away from a

17:37

major influence like Frank Lloyd Wright. You

17:40

know, you can say Wright had

17:42

nothing to do with your work,

17:44

but I would challenge any way

17:47

that's doing contemporary modern work that

17:49

doesn't have some love of Wright's

17:51

work. I would

17:53

say that for me, I

17:56

spent a lot of

17:58

time not wanting to

18:00

have influence from Frank Lloyd Light,

18:02

but I can't do anything about

18:04

it. But even the days

18:07

of Taliesson, in terms of

18:09

people coming there to work

18:11

as apprentices, they were coming

18:13

from all over the world. He

18:15

had a, even back in the 20s, he

18:17

had a worldwide reputation. And

18:20

as an important figure

18:22

in architecture, he was

18:24

just all around. You can't get

18:26

away from him. And And then

18:29

as I grew older than I

18:31

heard stories and so forth about,

18:33

you know, some of the things that

18:35

he had done. Wisconsin

18:37

has a very interesting and unique

18:40

history, more so than a

18:42

lot of other states. And

18:44

it was a very progressive

18:47

state. It was the first state

18:49

that had a university system

18:51

where the Wisconsin idea were

18:53

within you could go to

18:56

any. college or university within

18:58

70 miles of you. So it

19:00

was, and it was the 33rd

19:02

largest state, and it

19:04

had the third largest university

19:07

system. It was the birthplace

19:09

of public radio and public

19:11

television, and it was just a,

19:14

it was a very progressive liberal

19:16

state. It was the birthplace

19:18

of the Republican Party, and

19:20

there was the progressive wing

19:22

of the. Republican Party, which

19:24

was kind of run by

19:26

this family called the Volfolits,

19:28

and they promote this

19:30

Wisconsin idea, Wisconsin idea in

19:32

terms of education, in terms

19:35

of resources, and in terms

19:37

of the ability to get

19:39

services from the state. And

19:41

Wisconsin had, like I said, one

19:43

of the first welfare systems, which

19:45

was actually developed by Republicans. and

19:48

they were the Republicans were the

19:50

conservationists so they kind of tells

19:52

you how things have flipped around

19:54

and most of these ideas

19:57

came from German and

19:59

Scandinavian transcendentalists. settled in the

20:01

area. And Milwaukee was, had

20:03

a socialist mayor until I

20:06

believe the 60s, from like

20:08

the 20s to the 60s, something

20:10

like that. And so it was,

20:13

it was a state that was

20:15

very interested in, I

20:17

think, hard work and beautiful

20:19

state in terms of landscape

20:21

and property and, you know,

20:23

and I think, I think,

20:26

right load it. I think

20:28

he loved it. the fact

20:30

that his forebearers

20:32

and uncles were farmers and yet

20:34

they still, you know, read at

20:37

night and would wear a bow

20:39

tie when they went out on a horse

20:41

with a plow and, you know, there

20:43

was all these cultural aspects

20:45

that were, they were kind

20:48

of unique to Wisconsin. I

20:50

didn't know about the fires at

20:52

Elias and then the murders

20:54

until I was probably in

20:57

my 20s. So, you know,

20:59

that. that particular story I

21:01

wasn't really aware of until

21:04

I was older and

21:06

doing more studying

21:08

but the the the during

21:10

my lifetime there was a

21:13

lot of people that met

21:15

right that were still alive

21:17

and they all had something

21:20

to complain about it was

21:22

you know the roof leaked

21:24

you know he was Charlton,

21:27

he, you know, would drive

21:29

into a gas station and

21:31

fill up his gas and

21:34

then drive off and say,

21:36

I'm frankly right. And, you

21:38

know, there was just

21:40

countless stories. When Mrs.

21:42

Wright died in Arizona, in

21:44

her will, I don't know

21:47

how this happened, but she,

21:49

in her will, had Wright's

21:52

body dug up at the

21:54

cemetery and spring green. in

21:56

the middle of the night,

21:59

creamy. and then sent down to

22:01

be set next to her in Arizona.

22:03

And that was kind of a big

22:05

story. And my brother-in-law, who used to

22:08

be the DA up in Madison, he

22:10

was driving me out there to this

22:12

farmhouse. And he was just like so

22:14

mad about, you know, the beginning of

22:16

the night. And he said, boy, if

22:18

I still was in a prosecutor, I

22:21

would have gone after that and never

22:23

would let that happen, blah, blah. And

22:25

I go, well, well, and I go, well, well,

22:27

well, I go. And he goes, yeah,

22:29

but he was our asshole.

22:32

I just don't know anybody

22:34

that I've ever met in

22:36

regards to a client, a

22:38

client that wasn't in a

22:40

fight with him. But even

22:42

Kauffman's, you know, that he

22:45

had so much trouble with

22:47

falling water and so forth,

22:49

you know, even saying a

22:51

bad word about him. So,

22:53

you know, they called him Mr.

22:56

Right. believed in his work and

22:58

they believed in what they accomplished for

23:00

him even though some of it

23:02

was you know didn't work correctly

23:05

functionally and it didn't keep

23:07

out the rain necessarily in

23:09

some instances but they still

23:11

like them same with the apprentices

23:13

so I don't know how you

23:16

balance that you probably heard this

23:18

story but this is the one

23:20

that I know her hearing from

23:22

the daughter is that Herbert Johnson

23:24

nickname was Hib. And so there's

23:26

like an opening above the table

23:29

that he had designed this dining

23:31

table. It's ridiculous. It's still there

23:33

if you were going to wing

23:35

spread, but the table slides into

23:38

the kitchen. And it's a very

23:40

long, long table. The slides into

23:42

the kitchen, they load the food

23:44

on the table and then then

23:47

slides it and slides back out.

23:49

And so there's like an opening

23:51

above the table that you pull

23:53

back these shutters. And you come

23:56

back and the tail comes out

23:58

and it was poor. pouring rain,

24:00

first big dinner and that he's

24:02

having in the house with supposedly,

24:04

you know, a lot of important

24:07

people there. And he's sitting at

24:09

the end of the table. He's

24:11

bald. And the next thing you

24:13

know, there's water dripping right on

24:15

his bald hat. And

24:19

this is actually a true

24:21

story. So he calls, the

24:23

phone's behind him, he picks

24:25

up the phone, gets the

24:27

operator says, give me Frank

24:29

Lloyd Wright in Tucson, Arizona.

24:32

And he goes back in those

24:34

days, that's how you made a

24:37

call. And so he gets right

24:39

on the line. He goes, I'm

24:41

sitting here having dinner with a

24:43

group of my friends. And it's

24:45

pouring rain on my head. And

24:47

Wright's response was, move your chair

24:49

hip. I

24:54

don't think having tragedy in

24:56

your life makes you unlikable. I

24:58

don't either. I think a

25:00

tragic events, who somebody who's creative,

25:03

only makes them more determined

25:05

in terms of their work. Yeah,

25:09

that's, that's interesting to think

25:11

about like how it may

25:13

have galvanized his resolve, maybe

25:15

even, you know, made him

25:17

come face to face with

25:19

his own mortality and then

25:21

resolve to achieve even more

25:23

before that happened. He certainly

25:25

was concerned with his legacy.

25:27

There's no question. Yeah. And

25:29

the I think that he's

25:31

also concerned about how what

25:33

what what people's perception of

25:35

him was in regard to

25:37

his legacy. So I think

25:39

that had a lot to

25:42

do with his the stories

25:44

that he did make up

25:46

because he wanted to be

25:48

thought of in a certain

25:50

way. Deep

25:53

down, I am sure he was very

25:55

insecure. And I think a lot of

25:57

the things that he did were to

26:00

give his way of

26:02

life and his approach

26:04

to life, some

26:06

meaning. And one

26:08

of the, one of the,

26:10

one of the, I can't

26:13

remember who

26:15

wrote about this, but

26:17

when, when his first

26:20

wife died before

26:22

he did, he was

26:24

actually very

26:26

grief stricken.

26:28

and depressed in his

26:31

last couple of years. So,

26:33

you know, because that was the

26:35

beginning of his life. And

26:37

he was reaching the end

26:39

of his. There's so many

26:42

different tragedies and

26:44

stories that surround that,

26:46

you know, it's like, where do

26:48

you begin? And I think that

26:51

for someone who has the

26:53

perseverance to move on from

26:55

those, you know, I think

26:57

people are intrigued by those

26:59

stories, but I don't know what

27:02

that really has to do with his

27:04

work. I can tell you why I'm

27:06

intrigued and what I think it

27:08

has to do with his

27:10

work. I don't know that

27:12

it influenced his architecture, but

27:14

I think we've immortalized him

27:16

by calling him a genius.

27:19

And in doing so, we've

27:21

oversimplified him to be this

27:23

sort of inaccessible... gifted,

27:25

singly faceted person, but when

27:28

you become aware of the

27:30

richness of his life, some of

27:32

it marked by tragedy, you start

27:34

to think of him more as a

27:37

human, and when you start to

27:39

think of him more as a

27:41

human, then his work becomes even

27:43

that much richer because he's not

27:45

like, he wasn't beamed from outer

27:47

space, he's a real person who,

27:50

you know, against a lot of

27:52

odds, just, you know, was able to...

27:55

transcend boundaries of

27:57

existing architecture. And then

27:59

I also think when we revere him

28:02

as an architect and celebrate

28:04

him as a human who also

28:06

had a full life, you

28:08

know, with the full spectrum of

28:10

emotion and tragedy and consequence,

28:12

then it becomes less inaccessible for

28:14

future architects to attempt something

28:16

like that. I think it's really

28:18

important to talk about people

28:20

as full humans. Yeah, it's interesting.

28:22

I think that's, and perhaps

28:24

this was, you know, a Frank

28:26

Lloyd Wright thing, was he

28:28

is sort of caught in that

28:31

middle. And a lot of

28:33

people are, I think, between being

28:35

an artist and being an

28:37

architect. And I think an artist

28:39

is granted a lot more

28:41

leeway in terms of doing what

28:43

they want to do because

28:45

an artist is supposed to be

28:47

singular. And architecture and design

28:49

is much more about, sorry, collaboration.

28:53

But if you're an artist who

28:55

is doing architecture, I could see

28:57

how you can run into some

28:59

challenges. I feel like the work

29:01

is even that much more interesting

29:03

when you know the context under

29:05

which it was created, you know,

29:08

like dealing with this intense insecurity,

29:10

this public criticism of his lifestyle,

29:12

this tragedy that he almost had

29:14

to brush under the rug because

29:16

if he gave the public any,

29:18

you know, inch, they would have

29:21

taken a mile in terms of

29:23

condemning his lifestyle. And in terms,

29:25

I think they even said the

29:27

angel of vengeance or somebody was

29:29

responsible for this. So he almost

29:31

had to make it go away

29:34

so he could continue doing his

29:36

work. But now in terms of

29:38

investigating his legacy, I don't think

29:40

we do him or ourselves any

29:42

favors by

29:44

immortalizing him and mythologizing him as

29:46

some sort of inhuman genius.

29:49

To me, it feels like you

29:51

can't separate the two. You

29:53

know, his work is his life

29:55

and like you can't separate

29:57

it. And Yeah, it's not like

29:59

he clocked out at five. Right.

30:02

Yeah, exactly. And so I

30:04

think, like you said, it

30:06

adds this just real richness

30:08

when you start to see

30:10

the totality of the person

30:12

responsible for bringing this work to

30:14

life. Do

30:18

you believe in your personal

30:20

immortality? Yes. And

30:23

so far, as I am

30:25

immortal, I will be immortal.

30:27

To me, young has no

30:29

meaning. It's something you can

30:32

do nothing about, nothing at

30:34

all. But youth is equality.

30:36

And if you have it,

30:39

you never lose it. And when they put

30:41

you into the box, that's your immortality.

30:50

Could Wright's tendencies to ignore

30:52

the negative have played a role

30:54

in the tragedy at Taliesin? Could

30:57

the tendency to ignore or to try

30:59

to ignore the challenges simmering below the

31:01

surface lead to an explosion, murders in

31:03

this case, in one form or another? Rather

31:07

than confronting the problems head on

31:09

and putting out fires, both literal

31:11

and figurative, before they become tragic,

31:13

Wright seemed to ignore any and

31:16

all criticism and do what he

31:18

believed was right. Could

31:20

this have exacerbated the problems

31:22

brewing at Taliesin? Could

31:25

FLW or anyone have seen the

31:27

murderous tendencies of Julian Carlton

31:29

if they had chosen to? Creative

31:33

people are so often pushed into adversarial

31:35

relationships with critics. They are told

31:37

to ignore bad press and plow ahead.

31:39

But is there another way to

31:41

exist in relation to critics and criticism?

31:43

A way to not let the

31:45

critics crush you as a creative but

31:47

to embrace it and use the

31:49

criticism to get better and be better?

31:52

Might understanding life with

31:54

all its inconsistencies and

31:57

tragedies as well as its

31:59

triumphs. point us to a

32:01

more meaningful relationship with, and a

32:03

deeper understanding of, not just

32:05

ourselves, but others? We

32:08

think so. Thanks

32:12

for listening to Clever Confidential. To

32:14

see images and more, head to

32:16

cleverpodcast .com. For our next episode,

32:18

we will be delving into the

32:20

story of Italian design legend Olivetti

32:22

and all of the international mysteries

32:24

and scandals surrounding the race to

32:26

create the world's first desktop computer.

32:28

If you like Clever Confidential and

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us by telling your friends and

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32:36

You can find us on Twitter,

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32:41

Thank you to Brad Lynch, a

32:43

Brennan Stuhl and Lynch Architects for

32:45

lending his expertise, insight, and colorful

32:47

commentary. Clever Confidential is

32:49

produced by 2VDemedia. Camille Stennis

32:51

lended her audio wizardry for editing

32:53

and sound design. Ilana Nevenst

32:55

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32:57

Our huge thanks to both.

32:59

Our theme music is Astronomy by

33:02

Thin White Rope from their

33:04

album In a Spanish Cave, courtesy

33:06

of Frontier Records. Thanks to

33:08

the Harry Ransom Center at the

33:10

University of Texas for the

33:12

clip of Mike Wallace interviewing Frank

33:14

Lloyd Wright. Clever is part

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of the Airwave Media Podcast Network.

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Visit airwavemedia .com to discover more

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have to. I

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think I can't put his hand up. Hey

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