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1:00

do at mintmobile.com. Oh

1:03

my god. How could someone

1:05

be so stupid? When

1:10

we learned last month that a

1:12

group of Trump administration officials were

1:14

using the Signal app to discuss

1:16

sensitive military attack plans and that

1:18

Atlantic editor Jeffrey Goldberg had been

1:20

added to the chat, many

1:22

veterans shared Jeremy Daigle's

1:24

reaction. One of the first things,

1:26

once you get any sort of higher clearance, one

1:29

of the very first thing that happens

1:31

is you get told, you can talk about

1:33

these things using these channels. If

1:35

you talk about it outside of these channels, that

1:38

is a no -no. Daigle served six

1:40

years in the Air Force as an

1:43

avionics technician and had top -secret clearance. He

1:45

says from the earliest days of

1:47

basic training, the importance of safeguarding

1:50

information was drilled into him, and

1:52

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, a veteran

1:54

himself, should have known better. So,

1:56

on Sunday night... we learned of a

1:58

second group chat. This one, including

2:01

his wife and brother, sources

2:03

telling CNN that this second

2:05

group chat, Hegseth, sent highly

2:07

sensitive information about strikes in

2:09

Yemen. Dagle couldn't believe it.

2:12

It was treating a military operation with all

2:14

the reverence you would treat a

2:16

backyard fireworks show. He's

2:18

just like, hey, come look at this cool

2:20

bombing that we're going to be doing. You

2:23

know, show my brother and my wife

2:25

about it. It'll be cool. What kind

2:27

of message do you think this sends

2:29

to service members all around the world

2:31

that this has happened multiple times? Oh,

2:33

it is 100%. It is a slap in the face.

2:36

Commanders and generals have lost

2:38

commands over less. And

2:40

it's for that reason, it

2:42

hurts discipline. It demonstrates

2:45

that if the leader isn't

2:47

disciplined, how can they expect

2:49

any of their subordinates to have discipline? And

2:51

that's what we just saw. My

2:56

guest today is CNN national security

2:58

reporter Haley Britsky. We're gonna talk

3:00

about why it appears Hexeth could

3:02

be losing his grip on top

3:04

leadership inside the Pentagon and how

3:06

all this drama could impact the

3:08

men and women of America's military. From

3:11

CNN, this is one thing. I'm

3:13

David Reind. Hey

3:20

Leigh, thanks for being here. Just to time

3:22

stamp this conversation for our listeners because

3:24

things are moving fast around here. It's about

3:26

10 a .m. on Tuesday morning and Pete

3:28

Hexeth had another... Signal group chat like

3:30

what the heck is going on here? Yeah,

3:33

so David we reported over the

3:35

weekend that the secretary was in a

3:37

second signal group chat We know

3:39

obviously the first that was reported by

3:41

the Atlantic because the Atlantic editor -in

3:43

-chief was added into that group chat

3:45

Yeah, and this second one it

3:48

was set up during his confirmation process

3:50

for him to kind of strategize

3:52

and speak with people during his hearings

3:54

and meetings and things like that

3:56

and that he's continued using it and

3:58

so what we report was that there's

4:00

more than a dozen people in

4:02

this chat to include his wife, his

4:04

brother, his personal lawyer. In

4:07

that chat, he was sharing some of

4:09

this information about military strikes against the

4:11

Houthis, similar to what he was doing

4:13

in the first one. Wait, yeah. That

4:15

obviously raises the same questions about sharing

4:17

sensitive info like that on a platform

4:19

like Signal. Why was his

4:22

wife in the chat? Does she work

4:24

for the Department of Defense? Like what's

4:26

going on there? So Jennifer

4:28

Hegzeff does not actually work for DOD.

4:30

His brother and his lawyer both

4:32

have roles within the department. So that

4:34

kind of makes a little bit

4:36

more sense, I guess. But his

4:38

wife does not. We've seen her very

4:41

visibly with her husband throughout his

4:43

confirmation process. Also since then, as she's

4:45

traveled with him on trips abroad,

4:47

not necessarily unusual. Other spouses of

4:49

other secretaries. have done the same. But

4:51

we've also seen her enter meetings

4:53

with other foreign leaders like the UK's

4:56

defense minister, John Healy. So

4:58

while she doesn't have a official job

5:00

in the Pentagon, she is certainly very

5:02

active in supporting her husband and kind

5:04

of being with him during some of

5:06

these moments. To our knowledge, she does

5:08

not have a security clearance. We've asked

5:10

the Pentagon that they have declined to

5:12

say anything because they don't typically talk

5:15

about anyone's security clearance. But

5:17

it is a question of what

5:19

information is she seeing and

5:21

is she pretty too? And

5:23

really though, I mean, the signal chat,

5:25

as much of an issue as that

5:27

has become, it's kind of just the

5:29

tip of the iceberg in a really

5:31

chaotic period for Hegzeff that's unfolding right

5:33

now. Yeah, I've heard about all this.

5:35

Is that related to this signal stuff? It

5:38

is related in the way

5:40

somewhat, so it's complicated. Breaking

5:45

overnight, a month of chaos.

5:47

That is how one longtime

5:49

advisor to Pete Hegseth is

5:51

now describing the Pentagon under

5:54

Hegseth's leadership. So the secretary

5:56

has just last week three

5:58

officials who were brought in

6:00

with the administration. This was

6:02

a senior advisor to the secretary and

6:04

his deputy chief of staff, as

6:06

well as the chief of staff to

6:09

the deputy secretary of defense. All

6:11

three of those officials were placed on

6:13

administrative leave last week and then

6:15

fired for what was said, you know,

6:17

amid an investigation of unauthorized disclosures

6:19

or essentially leaking information. We

6:21

take the classification of information

6:24

very important. It's very significant to

6:26

us that we safeguard it. And so

6:28

when we had leaks, which we

6:30

have had here, we did a serious

6:32

leak investigation. And through

6:34

that leak investigation, unfortunately, we

6:36

found some folks that we believe were

6:38

not holding to the protocols that we

6:40

hold dear here at the Defense Department.

6:43

And the secretary maintains that these

6:45

individuals leaked information to the

6:47

media. He said just this

6:49

morning in an interview on

6:51

Fox that he believes those individuals,

6:53

again, leaked information about the

6:55

signal chats. Those folks who were leaking, who

6:57

have been pushed out of the building, are

7:00

now attempting to leak. and sabotage the

7:02

president's agenda and what we're doing and

7:04

that's unfortunate. These individuals have consistently

7:06

denied that they have leaked any

7:08

information that they have done and wrongdoing

7:10

and the secretary maintained this morning

7:12

that they had but he also left

7:14

the door open a little bit

7:16

saying that you know if they're exonerated

7:18

and this investigation great but they

7:20

could be referred to the Department of

7:22

Justice for prosecution. Leakers know who

7:24

they are and we know over

7:27

time the truth will be told and we

7:29

stand firm behind that. But

7:33

wait, weren't these? Hegseth's

7:35

guys that he brought in. They

7:37

were. These are not, you know,

7:39

establishment bureaucrats in the way that, you

7:41

know, Republicans often talk about the

7:43

deep state and these sort of people

7:45

who've worked in the department for

7:47

years and years and are working to

7:49

undermine the president or the secretary.

7:51

These are people that Hegseth knew, which

7:53

he acknowledged in his Fox interview

7:55

this morning, saying, you know, this investigation

7:57

took us to some unfortunate places

7:59

and to people that I've known for a long

8:01

time. You just left the Pentagon under circumstances.

8:03

hope we can talk about. What were

8:05

you doing when you left? So

8:08

I was a senior advisor to

8:10

the secretary of defense. I was focused.

8:12

So on Monday night, one of these

8:14

individuals, name is Dan Caldwell. He

8:16

was the senior advisor for secretary Heg

8:18

Seth, has worked together in the

8:20

past, you know, are friendly. He was

8:22

brought in by the secretary to

8:25

sort of help him lead his front

8:27

office and advise him. So I just want to be totally

8:30

direct with you. Did you leak?

8:32

classified information against the wishes

8:34

of your superiors to media outlets.

8:36

Absolutely not. And

8:38

Caldwell told Tucker Carlson he did

8:40

not leak any classified information, that

8:42

he did not photograph information and

8:44

share it with the media. I

8:46

have not spoken to an NBC reporter

8:49

while at the Pentagon. Do

8:51

you know what you've

8:53

been accused of? No, I

8:56

don't. Sitting here right now, myself,

8:59

and Darren Selnick and Colin Carroll, the

9:01

other two individuals that were escorted out

9:03

of the Pentagon, initially placed on leave

9:05

and then fired on Friday. We

9:07

have not been told as of this

9:10

recording. One, is

9:12

there what we were being

9:14

investigated for? Two, is

9:17

there still an investigation? And three,

9:19

was there even a real investigation? Because

9:21

there's a lot of evidence. that

9:23

there is not a real investigation.

9:25

But again, Caldwell and the two

9:27

other officials, Darren Selnick and Colin

9:29

Carroll, put out a joint statement

9:31

saying essentially that over the weekend,

9:33

that they denied sharing information and

9:35

that they hadn't even really been

9:37

told what they were being investigated

9:39

for or if there was an

9:41

ongoing investigation. Meanwhile,

9:46

I don't have time for leakers. I

9:48

don't have time for the hoax

9:50

press that pedals old stories from disgruntled

9:52

employees. The secretary has continued

9:54

to kind of slam them in public

9:56

statements. He said at the White House

9:58

on Monday that they were leakers with

10:00

axes to grind. He described them

10:02

as disgruntled former employees. We

10:04

should be talking about the decimation of the

10:06

Houthis, how we're pushing back the Chinese,

10:08

how we have a new defense area

10:10

at the southern border. Instead, disgruntled former

10:12

employees are peddling things to try to

10:14

save their ass did you and ultimately

10:17

that's that's not going to work. But

10:19

again as you pointed out I mean these

10:21

are people that he brought in with him into

10:23

his office and so it's kind of fascinating

10:25

the way that this is playing out so publicly.

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to the world on your local

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public radio station and wherever you find

11:26

your podcasts. Yeah,

11:36

this is so odd. I mean he's only been

11:38

there a few months and he's already trashing

11:40

these guys that he brought in. So is this

11:42

just like an old -fashioned power struggle or is

11:44

there something deeper going on here? That's the

11:46

big question that I think everyone is

11:48

trying to figure out is sort of

11:50

where is this coming from? Is this

11:52

more of just, you know, a personality

11:54

dynamic? Is this an issue of, you

11:56

know, something broader that hasn't been uncovered

11:58

yet? There's even been question about what's

12:00

going on with the secretary's chief of

12:03

staff, Joe Casper. He was asked about

12:05

Casper during his interview with Fox and

12:07

Friends. He's, you know, confirmed that he

12:09

was moving into a new role, said

12:11

that they really appreciated his work at

12:13

the department. So there's just a lot

12:15

of cycling around a lot of movement

12:18

happening in the secretary's front office right

12:20

now, which the secretary

12:22

maintains is just a distraction

12:24

by the media to undermine the

12:26

president's agenda. But there are

12:28

serious concerns bubbling up, particularly on

12:30

the Hill, about the way that this

12:32

secretary is functioning and the way that

12:34

his office is working. Yeah, this was

12:37

the knock on him during the confirmation process,

12:39

right? put aside the

12:41

very serious allegations of drinking on

12:43

the job and sexual assault, which

12:45

he has strenuously denied throughout. Critics

12:47

said, this guy has never been

12:49

in charge of an organization as

12:51

large and as complex as the

12:53

Pentagon. That's right. And that's one

12:55

of the main concerns that was raised

12:57

just yesterday by Congressman Don Bacon.

12:59

He was the first Republican who spoke

13:01

out, he's on the House Armed

13:03

Services Committee, saying that he had concerns

13:05

before about Hexeth's experience level and

13:07

he still has them now, said that

13:09

the second signal chat is unacceptable

13:12

and that he wouldn't stand for it

13:14

if he was in a leadership

13:16

position. So those concerns have

13:18

certainly existed from really the

13:20

moment Hexeth was named as the

13:22

Defense Secretary. and they are certainly

13:24

continuing into his tenure. Well, how does

13:26

President Trump feel about all this

13:28

then? Because this was a controversial pick

13:30

from the start and Trump stuck

13:32

with them even through all that controversy

13:35

that I mentioned earlier. He has, yeah.

13:37

And the president is continuing to stand by

13:39

him. Are you bringing up Signal again? I thought

13:41

they gave that up two weeks ago. The

13:43

White House was expressing confidence in him.

13:45

The president himself expressed confidence saying

13:47

that Hexeth is doing a great job.

13:50

We have regroupments that are

13:52

all time high. The spirit

13:54

and the armed forces is

13:56

fantastic. Great confidence. The White House

13:58

press secretary saying that the

14:00

entire Pentagon is working against Hexeth, which

14:02

I mean, obviously a bit of

14:05

hyperbole. there but it is a kind

14:07

of amazing statement to be making

14:09

that the Pentagon is large as it

14:11

is and full of you know

14:13

career military officers and service members to

14:15

say that they are this is

14:17

just an issue of people not liking

14:19

leadership when clearly there is something

14:22

going on in the secretary's office and

14:24

with the people that he has

14:26

brought in to surround him and give

14:28

him advice. Well, yeah, I

14:30

mean, this is a huge organization that

14:32

does a lot of important work. So

14:34

how has all this upheaval impacted the

14:36

actual work of the military at home

14:38

and around the world? So, you

14:40

know, the amazing thing about the military,

14:43

at least in my years of covering

14:45

the military, certainly out in the force

14:47

and around the world, those units continue

14:49

on. The political happenings

14:51

occurring back home in

14:53

DC, you know, rarely

14:55

directly impact so quickly.

14:59

groups are doing on the front lines or

15:01

in training with allies and partners. But

15:03

certainly it's a question that's being asked of

15:05

what kind of a distraction is this

15:07

posing for the department and for its ability

15:09

to do the work that it needs

15:11

to do. This is an extremely

15:13

complicated security environment right now.

15:15

We have Ukraine, Russia, negotiations that

15:17

are ongoing, campaign against

15:19

the around -backed Houthis in

15:22

Yemen. The department is

15:24

constantly raising concern about

15:26

China's movements and the So,

15:28

it just leaves you to wonder, you

15:30

know, how much of a distraction this is

15:32

from the administration's priorities and how much

15:35

patience the president and his national security team

15:37

will be able to have with this.

15:39

Yeah, but what are those priorities? Because

15:41

through the first couple months of the

15:43

administration, a lot of the headlines that

15:45

have really stuck out to me anyways

15:47

was this mission to kind of root

15:49

out. so -called DEI initiatives

15:51

from the Pentagon, removing articles

15:54

about history from Pentagon

15:56

websites that had to be

15:58

replaced when there was outrage.

16:00

So is there any kind

16:02

of mixed messaging going on that...

16:04

service members have to deal with at this

16:06

point. I think there is a

16:08

little bit in that, you know, we

16:10

have the priorities, the foreign policy

16:12

priorities, or the broader national security priorities,

16:14

which are some of, you know,

16:16

what I just listed off with Ukraine,

16:18

with the Houthis in Yemen, with

16:20

the Pacific. But meanwhile, as you just

16:22

said, I mean, the secretary has

16:24

largely focused his messaging and his efforts

16:26

on things like restoring lethality, restoring

16:29

war fighting to the department,

16:31

and largely that seems to include...

16:33

we're saying, you know. getting

16:35

rid of some of this diversity

16:37

issues and tackling things like physical

16:39

fitness testing. It's something else that

16:41

he's been focusing on. I

16:44

know exactly why I'm here

16:46

to bring warfighting and the warfighting

16:48

ethos back to the Pentagon to

16:50

rip out the insidious ideologies and

16:52

not compromise and not back down. So

16:55

the secretary seems to be focusing

16:57

on a lot of these personnel issues

16:59

and certainly that's what the messaging

17:01

from his office has focused on. To

17:03

get rid of trans lunacy in the

17:06

military. We haven't backed out.

17:08

And meanwhile, there are these larger

17:10

security concerns happening elsewhere in the

17:12

world. Certainly, he's continued holding meetings

17:14

with officials on those things, engaging

17:16

with those as we saw in

17:18

the signal chats. The information that

17:20

was being discussed there was about

17:22

strikes against the Houthis and Yemen.

17:24

So certainly, those things are ongoing,

17:26

and he's engaged with those. But

17:28

largely, the messaging we've seen from

17:30

his office has focused on some

17:32

of these personnel issues instead. Yeah,

17:35

it's not like there aren't Urgent military

17:37

matters being discussed. It's

17:39

just a question of where they're

17:41

being discussed and with whom that is

17:43

raising a lot of these red

17:45

flags. Well, Haley, thanks so much for

17:48

the perspective. Appreciate it. Thanks for

17:50

having me. One

17:58

thing is a production of CNN Audio. This

18:00

episode was produced by me,

18:02

David Rind. Our senior producers are

18:05

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18:09

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18:15

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18:21

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18:26

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18:43

fallout from President Trump's so

18:45

-called Liberation Day with global

18:47

tariffs and the resulting rising

18:49

tensions with China. We'll be

18:51

out of business before the end of the

18:53

year if things continue on this path. So

18:56

yeah, what exactly is this path

18:58

that we're on? What does this mean

19:00

for you and your finances? And

19:02

is it possible to get clarity in

19:04

the chaos? Listen

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