0:00

Dave Stoviac here, host

0:02

of the Coaching for

0:04

Leaders podcast. We mean

0:06

so well, almost all of

0:09

us. We love to jump

0:11

in and help people a

0:13

lot, and sometimes we get

0:15

in our own way. So

0:17

often I hear from leaders

0:19

that they would love to

0:21

have a team that brought

0:24

more solutions than problems. But

0:26

where do you start on helping

0:28

a team to do that?

0:30

The Coaching for Leaders Academy just

0:32

opened for applications. So today

0:34

I'm sharing a conversation with

0:36

one of our academy alums,

0:39

Nanette Metzger, who worked hard

0:41

to help her team generate solutions.

0:43

Here's our chat. I'm speaking today

0:45

with Nanette Metzger. Nanette is a sales

0:48

manager in food service. She is also

0:50

a alum of the Coaching for Leaders

0:52

Academy. Nanette, so glad to have you

0:55

here. Dave, thank you so much for having

0:57

me. I've been looking forward to this

0:59

conversation. We've had so much fun

1:01

working together and before we get

1:04

into like what we've been doing, perhaps

1:06

you might share just a little bit about

1:08

you, your role and just what's keeping you

1:10

busy and as a sales manager. All sorts

1:13

of things keep managers busy. I

1:15

think whether they're the right things

1:17

or the wrong things or somewhere in

1:19

between. My role is I lead

1:21

a team of 12 people that are

1:23

very tenured in the company I work

1:26

for. We're responsible to get groceries out

1:28

to our customers for next day

1:30

delivery. So there's definitely time pressure and

1:32

time constraints that come with that. But

1:35

we're also responsible for growing our book

1:37

of business and for just overall

1:39

representing the company that we work for

1:41

in a bright light and in

1:44

a bright way. So my day

1:46

can vary from anything from dealing

1:48

with regular issues to the futuristic

1:50

standpoint of trying to develop new

1:53

relationships, develop new deals, develop new

1:55

customers from prospects to customers. So

1:57

we do a lot in this

1:59

and I spend probably more time than

2:01

I want to behind the wheel of a

2:03

car driving up and down a highway in

2:05

all honesty. Yeah well and like so

2:08

much of your work is logistics and

2:10

you have unlike some there's the working

2:12

with things that are perishable like there's

2:14

there's a lot of things

2:16

that have to happen really

2:18

quickly fast decisions fast interactions

2:20

relationships solved adds an additional

2:22

challenge to being a leader. It does

2:24

and actually to like grow on that

2:27

point too, it makes my role even

2:29

a little bit more pinched where we

2:31

need to do the things that will

2:34

produce results, but... me being a manager,

2:36

me being in leadership, I have the

2:38

ability to impact my team's lives, whether

2:41

it's for good or for bad. And

2:43

the good can be really, really good

2:45

and the bad can be so bad.

2:48

And we've all had good and bad

2:50

bosses. So it just makes it makes

2:52

it where conversations carry weight, you know,

2:55

how my tone or what I say, how

2:57

I handle, how I lead. And then hopefully

2:59

the whole part of it is to impact

3:01

the people on my team to develop. different

3:04

skill sets for themselves, which is

3:06

it's different for every person. So

3:08

each thing has its, it's not

3:10

unique necessarily to me or my

3:13

situation, but definitely a part of

3:15

being in leadership and being a

3:17

manager. Indeed. Do you recall how you

3:19

came across the podcast originally? I

3:21

remember the very day. I actually,

3:24

I had no ambitions to go

3:26

back into leadership and in my

3:28

career, but I was presented with

3:30

the opportunity. when I was kind of

3:33

told, I was I guess, Volin told

3:35

that this was happening, that I was

3:37

going to, my boss had been promoted

3:39

and he was putting me in his

3:41

shoes. I would continue to answer to

3:43

the same person throughout it all, but

3:45

I remember I thought, I don't know

3:47

how to lead these people that have

3:49

been in this company for 20 years

3:51

and I don't know how to, I

3:53

don't know how to do leadership in

3:55

this industry and I was actually standing

3:57

in front of the mirror and trying.

3:59

to get dressed in the morning and

4:02

I googled good leadership podcast. And you

4:04

were actually the first one that came

4:06

up and I never trust the first

4:08

results so I explored a few other

4:10

ones. I did not like it so

4:13

much and not as much as I

4:15

like yours and I've been very very

4:17

faithful ever since. It's kind of a

4:19

silly little thing but I remembered the

4:22

logo popping up and I thought okay

4:24

I'll give it a shot. Oh wow,

4:26

oh fascinating. Well, thanks Google for

4:28

getting us connected originally. I hear

4:31

you on the first search result

4:33

sometimes. You're like, hmm, I don't

4:36

know, is that sponsored? Whatever, yeah.

4:38

At some point you heard about

4:40

the academy and you decided to

4:43

apply and we had a

4:45

conversation initially. What did you,

4:47

what got your attention and what

4:49

did you hope to get from the

4:52

academy? So I. am a blank slate

4:54

to a certain degree and really open

4:56

to doing all sorts of things. I

4:58

feel like I've had a lot of

5:01

experience but no experience at all. I

5:03

was looking for something that would first

5:05

and foremost be outside of my company

5:08

and secondarily I was looking for

5:10

something that would be casual to

5:12

a certain degree. I did not.

5:14

want textbooks. I didn't want to

5:16

be in a classroom. I didn't

5:18

want those types of things. I

5:20

needed to be able to talk

5:22

about the situations and the relationships

5:24

that were coming up in. my

5:26

day to day and how I

5:28

was showing up and be honest

5:30

and be candid about how I

5:32

was showing up and what was

5:34

behind it and how to move

5:36

past that or how to double

5:38

down and do it better. And

5:40

so I started reading first about

5:42

the academy, I read a lot

5:44

and I listened a lot. I

5:46

had appreciated what you guys put

5:48

into the show quality of sound

5:50

and quality of production and that

5:52

is what drove me to late

5:54

at night one night, send in

5:56

my application and hope to have

5:58

a time to talk. to you

6:00

is because I was looking for

6:02

a peer group looking for collaboration

6:04

looking for a real life discussion

6:06

to better myself professionally and

6:09

personally. Yeah, and what I'm hearing you

6:11

really say there is that it's is about

6:13

the practical things like there's a time and

6:15

a place for theory and getting the background

6:17

and kind of doing the leadership 101 and

6:19

going through a traditional like training program. And

6:22

that wasn't what you were looking for. You

6:24

were looking for more of like, okay, I've

6:26

got some of the basics, but now I

6:28

really want to talk through situations as they

6:30

come up. I want to get feedback and

6:32

I want to get an objective feedback from

6:34

just outside the organization. That that that was

6:36

part of the driver of the driver too.

6:38

Oh yes, you hit the nail on

6:41

the head. You heard everything accurately.

6:43

And that's, that was really truly

6:45

what was provided in all honesty,

6:47

objectivity, outside perspective, collaboration, and real

6:49

life, getting traction on things. It's

6:51

not, it's not just theory, it's

6:54

taking action. Yeah, okay, good. Well,

6:56

that's part of what I want

6:58

to ask you about because when

7:00

we start the academy is we

7:02

go through a very intentional process

7:04

of all getting to know each other,

7:07

starting to build trust. thinking about where

7:09

we want to head through the process,

7:11

what does our vision look like? And then

7:13

we ultimately get to a point where we

7:16

surface three focus areas for each person, like

7:18

the three things that I really want to

7:20

zero in on, I want to get some

7:22

good traction on. What did you decide to

7:25

zero in on and actually take on as

7:27

a commitment as we got started? So I

7:29

had three focus areas that were really

7:31

helpful for me. I still referenced them

7:34

even today, just as a reminder to

7:36

myself of the areas that... provide

7:38

the most impact to my team.

7:40

The first one was accountability. The

7:42

second one was situational learning. And

7:45

then the third one was my

7:47

input and organization having better systems

7:49

in place for the information that

7:52

I have access to so that

7:54

when I need to share it,

7:56

it's quick and readily available. The

7:59

one area speaking of. commitments, the

8:01

one commitment that I did, my

8:03

60-day commitment that by far was

8:05

the most productive for myself and

8:07

I still continue to practice, was

8:09

I wanted to take on the

8:11

identity of being a listening leader,

8:14

but being a listening leader meant

8:16

that I had to shut up

8:18

and I had to listen. So

8:20

many of us want to listen better.

8:22

We've heard about being more

8:24

coach-like. We've heard the episodes

8:26

on listening, right? In practice,

8:28

though? It's not always the easiest thing to

8:31

shift on. What did you decide to do

8:33

and to try is like you got started

8:35

with a commitment to actually shift? It

8:37

was actually, it was nice to have

8:39

a commitment. It was nice to have

8:42

a daily action that I could control,

8:44

right? Something in my life that's not.

8:46

based on somebody else's performance or their

8:49

behavior. It's all with me. So I

8:51

made I made the decision. Actually, it

8:53

came from listening to you and Bonnie

8:56

about eight seconds. I think you had

8:58

shared it in one of our cohort

9:00

sessions about how it's important that we

9:02

hold, we hold silence for eight seconds

9:05

to allow somebody to process what we.

9:07

what we've said, form their own thoughts

9:09

and then gain the courage to speak

9:11

up. So I just began doing that

9:14

in my day-to-day conversations can be through

9:16

all sorts of different media. It can

9:18

be through text message, email, it can

9:20

be on a Zoom call, it can

9:22

be on a cell phone, and it

9:24

can be in person. And so with the

9:26

time sensitivity, the nature of the time

9:29

sensitivity of the job, a lot of

9:31

the inclination is just I don't have

9:33

time to listen to the rest of

9:36

your sentence. I'm going to cut you

9:38

off and I'm going to solve all

9:40

your problems for you. And so it's

9:42

a really big challenge for me to

9:45

wait until there was eight seconds of

9:47

silence, which is rare. That means you

9:49

have to listen to somebody's seven paragraph

9:52

rant, you know, sometimes or sometimes it's

9:54

just a couple more phrases and the

9:56

sentence is over and then the full

9:58

eight seconds and that was... very hard

10:00

for me to do. I found myself

10:03

pinching my own skin, trying not to

10:05

cut someone off, you know, perverbially biting

10:07

my own tongue. trying to come back

10:09

into my own body, feel my toes,

10:12

all those little psychological tricks to bring

10:14

myself back present to make sure I

10:16

wasn't cutting people off. Another part that

10:19

I did too was I just, the

10:21

little trigger that I used for myself

10:23

to realize that I was starting to

10:26

cut someone off is remind myself to

10:28

get back engaged in the conversation, remind

10:30

myself that I'm learning something here.

10:33

This person has information that I

10:35

don't have. Maybe we're talking about.

10:37

a topic that I'm well versed

10:39

in, maybe I have input on

10:41

what the next steps are, but

10:44

they have some type of information

10:46

that I don't currently have because

10:48

I don't live in their head.

10:50

And being patient enough to find

10:52

those little treasures, those little nuggets,

10:54

and just stopping myself to try

10:57

to say, okay, what am I

10:59

learning? And then waiting for the

11:01

eight seconds of silence. You know,

11:03

it's in theory. like it all makes

11:05

sense to like give people more space

11:07

to be heard like so often you

11:10

and I have both heard complaints from

11:12

many many people like oh my my

11:14

boss my customer whoever just doesn't ever

11:16

give me a chance to talk and

11:18

actually shifting that behavior those hard

11:20

is one of the reasons in the

11:22

academy we get down to like no

11:24

don't try to do this every in

11:26

every interaction like once a day like

11:29

five minutes one time one interaction

11:31

and I think you highlighted something that's

11:33

really important. It's really key. Like,

11:35

as you did this, it's awkward

11:38

to shift from what you've been

11:40

doing to this. I remember

11:42

you telling me it felt

11:44

awkward as you started, right?

11:46

It felt so awkward. And

11:48

sometimes people, especially the not

11:50

in-person conversations over the

11:53

phone or so, people would ask me

11:55

they're really, are you still there? Did

11:57

I lose you? Are we still connected?

11:59

and taking deep breaths, but also

12:02

the uncomfortability that other people felt.

12:04

And it was so simple to

12:06

negate that and just say, no,

12:08

I'm just listening. And then be

12:10

quiet again. and oftentimes the person

12:12

then would begin talking and they

12:14

would start listing off what they

12:17

thought the solutions were or what

12:19

they thought the next moves were

12:21

or the next steps and that

12:23

was so cool because it allowed me

12:25

to be the lazy manager right

12:27

to borrow a term it allowed

12:29

me to not have to put

12:31

in the mental work on it

12:33

and maybe even say just eight

12:35

words in the entire exchange instead

12:37

of being the problem solver for

12:39

everyone. you're not jumping in and

12:41

rescuing that as much, they're starting to

12:44

solve problems themselves. It's fascinating. And I

12:46

don't remember if you and I talked

12:48

about this in a net, but we've had

12:50

a whole bunch of folks in our academy

12:52

community over the years who have tried to

12:54

do something like this, of like, okay, I

12:56

want to create more space, I want to

12:58

listen more. And one of the things we

13:00

often talk about is that if you get

13:02

a little bit of discomfort and awkwardness from

13:05

the other party, that obviously that's not

13:07

the goal, but that's actually an

13:09

indicator. that you're on a good path because

13:11

it means people are noticing you change your

13:13

behavior and you saw that right away like

13:16

you changed your behavior enough that people were

13:18

like wait are you still listening or are

13:20

you there like you're not saying anything and

13:22

obviously you don't want to stay there for

13:24

a long period of time but a little bit

13:26

of that is actually really good because

13:29

it's sort of like it's resetting

13:31

people's expectations especially if they're used

13:33

to you jumping in and solving

13:35

problems like all of a sudden

13:37

they're like oh Weird she's not doing

13:39

that anymore like why you're right

13:41

like that's actually a good reset

13:44

big picture. Oh Absolutely absolutely

13:46

when I first walked into the

13:48

role I had a couple of new

13:50

hires on my team and and I

13:53

noticed that they it was constant they

13:55

they wanted my help or my approval

13:57

or my suggestions which is so flat

14:00

right? And it gives me the

14:02

opportunity to feel like I am

14:04

helping. It gives me the opportunity

14:06

to share my knowledge and be

14:08

a team player. But I noticed

14:10

as a result of some of

14:12

this restructuring, a lot of those

14:14

people that had a pattern of,

14:17

you know, constant interactions. They've taken ownership

14:19

over their decisions. It's given them

14:21

the confidence and them the development

14:23

in their skills to handle and

14:25

to tackle things just head on.

14:27

And it's been so rewarding to

14:30

observe happen. And it's also been

14:32

a great reminder to me to

14:34

keep on the right path because

14:36

I think, wow, I've gotten in

14:38

the way of these people being

14:40

able to do their best and

14:43

show up their best and show

14:45

up their best, right? Right. That's

14:47

been a very, very cool part

14:49

that's unfolded over the months of acting

14:51

this way. I'm so glad. And so

14:54

often it comes from a good place,

14:56

like a lot of us, especially in

14:58

our academy community, like we're the

15:00

kind of people that like to

15:02

be helpful, like to jump in

15:04

and solve problems and support people

15:06

in lots of ways. And often,

15:08

I know I've had this discovery.

15:10

I know you have Nanette and a lot

15:13

of folks in our community have of

15:15

like... We're helping in a different way.

15:17

We're helping in a different way than

15:19

we've been trained. We're actually helping less

15:21

in the moment sometimes, but setting up a

15:23

dynamic that helps more in the long term

15:25

for people to begin to take more ownership,

15:28

to begin to solve some of their own

15:30

problems, to be able to think more objectively.

15:32

And then when they come to us, we

15:34

can be a little bit more coach like

15:37

we can have that higher level conversation. And

15:39

as you've been doing that with your team

15:41

now for the last six, nine months more

15:44

consistently, more consistently. What have you seen? Not

15:46

only are people, not only are

15:48

people taking on their own ownership

15:51

of their daily responsibilities, where they've

15:53

got confidence to go and face

15:55

whatever might come at them, which

15:58

is just, it's so many. different

20:57

To apply, visit coaching for

20:59

leaders.com/academy now through Friday, March

21:01

14th. Details for everything about

21:03

the academy are right on

21:06

that page. Leadership gets harder

21:08

at inflection points. If you're

21:10

ready to get moving. made.