0:00

Have you been told you should take

0:02

more initiative? Or perhaps you've

0:04

been telling that to someone else.

0:07

Either way, this episode with

0:09

Tom Henshel will outline three

0:11

key steps to help you get

0:13

started. This is Coaching

0:15

for Leaders, episode 730. Greetings

0:27

to you from Orange County, California.

0:30

This is Coaching for Leaders

0:32

and I'm your host, Dave

0:34

Stahovak. Leaders are born, they're

0:37

made. And this weekly

0:39

show helps you discover leadership

0:41

wisdom through insightful conversations. One

0:43

of the things that we all need to

0:46

do in our role as leaders is to

0:48

take initiative. We also need to help others

0:50

to be able to take initiative well. And

0:52

if you're anything like me, you may have

0:54

struggled a bit with both of those at

0:56

different points in your career. And today,

0:58

a conversation that's going to help

1:00

us to do that a bit

1:02

better. I am so pleased to

1:04

welcome back to the show Tom

1:06

Henshel. Tom of Essential Communications supports

1:08

senior leaders and executive teams. He's

1:10

an internationally recognized expert in the

1:12

field of workplace communications and self

1:14

presentation. and has helped thousands of

1:16

leaders achieve excellence through his work

1:18

as an executive coach and his

1:20

top -rated podcast, The Look

1:22

and Sound of Leadership, my favorite show

1:25

and leadership that I listen to

1:27

all the time. And Tom, in addition,

1:29

is a dear friend. Tom, I went

1:31

and looked, and I think if I counted

1:33

correctly, this is your 16th appearance here

1:35

on Coaching for Leaders. Welcome back.

1:37

Wow. Oh, thanks. That's so

1:39

great. That's terrific. I'm so glad to

1:41

be back. Oh my gosh, me too.

1:43

Me too. And it has been a

1:45

bit since you've been on and you

1:47

and I have been having this conversation,

1:49

you say on your podcast, the

1:51

ongoing conversation of leadership. And you

1:53

and I have been having an ongoing

1:55

conversation over the last couple of

1:58

months about this topic of initiative. And

2:00

it is It is one that I

2:02

think a lot of us struggle with. I know

2:04

I have at points in my career for sure. You

2:06

and I both see this a lot. And

2:09

you brought a question into

2:11

our conversation that I love to

2:13

have you reflect on a

2:15

bit. And the question you pose

2:17

to me is, is initiative

2:19

in the eye of the beholder?

2:21

Tell me about that question. I

2:24

think sometimes with the best

2:26

of intention, someone

2:28

might take initiative like I

2:30

might send an email to

2:32

a group with the intention

2:34

of being helpful with the

2:36

intention of sharing information and

2:38

suddenly my boss comes to

2:40

me and goes what were

2:42

you thinking we were not

2:44

ready to whatever and I

2:46

suddenly am going like I

2:48

thought I was doing something

2:50

good I thought I was

2:52

taking initiative I thought I

2:54

was being helpful but it

2:56

didn't land that way on

2:58

my boss because Initiative is

3:00

in the eye of the

3:02

beholder as in your action

3:04

shows up the initiative you

3:06

took shows up, but your

3:08

intention does not ah Boy

3:11

that reminds me of where

3:13

I started in my career

3:15

when you said that I

3:17

The feedback I got regularly

3:19

the first few years of

3:21

my professional career was you're

3:23

not showing enough initiative and

3:25

it was Really

3:27

interesting to me at the time

3:29

of getting that feedback because when I

3:31

would get that feedback, I would

3:33

respectfully listen and I'd ask a few

3:35

questions and I'd walk out of

3:37

those conversations and I think, what are

3:40

they talking about? I remember one

3:42

manager in particular, I'm thinking

3:44

like, I'm taking initiative all the time.

3:46

I'm doing stuff. I'm

3:48

trying new things. I'm doing everything that's

3:50

being asked of me. I'm trying

3:52

to be creative. And I would legitimately

3:54

walk out of conversations where I'd

3:56

get that feedback and it showed up

3:59

and I got passed over for

4:01

a couple of promotions early on. And

4:03

I just thought, what are

4:06

they talking about? I don't even see

4:08

it. I don't get it. And but

4:10

in their minds, I wasn't showing initiative

4:12

at all, at least not in the

4:14

things that mattered to them. And when

4:16

you said in the eye the beholder,

4:18

I thought, wow, that's just that was

4:21

so much my story. So

4:23

now looking back, how

4:25

do you make sense of that? Do you

4:27

think it was a cultural issue? Like, where was

4:29

the miscalibration? Oh, it was me. It

4:32

was absolutely. Now

4:34

looking back, you say, oh, Dave, you

4:37

really could have been taken more

4:39

initiative. Oh, absolutely. Now when I

4:41

look back like 25 years later,

4:43

I think to myself, oh, my gosh,

4:45

I didn't take initiative at all.

4:47

I missed so much opportunity. I

4:49

didn't step out of the box.

4:52

I waited for people to tell me

4:54

what to do by and large.

4:56

Yes, I would do like little things

4:58

of like reformatting spreadsheets and figuring

5:00

out processes that help make things marginally

5:02

better for the people I was

5:04

working with and peers and employees. But

5:06

I didn't ever do anything that

5:08

I would put in the category of

5:10

bold or. or really

5:12

meaningful for the organization that would

5:15

really significantly move the needle. And

5:17

the interesting thing, Tom, is I

5:19

think about that is I see

5:21

that so clearly now, but it

5:23

didn't even occur to me at

5:25

the time that I was missing

5:27

those things. And if I had stopped

5:29

you in the parking lot on the way home, you

5:32

would have said, but I'm taking

5:34

initiative. Yeah. So, so

5:36

again, I'm wondering, is this about

5:40

professional maturity, like you thought the

5:42

reformatting of a spreadsheet was taking

5:44

initiative, but your supervisors looked at

5:46

when that doesn't, that work does

5:48

not make any difference. Right.

5:51

And so, but you didn't have the

5:53

lens to look through it. And I

5:56

wonder, as you and I are

5:58

going to talk about this, I wonder if we're going

6:00

to be able to help people shift that lens

6:02

for themselves to be able to see what they can't

6:04

see at the moment. Yeah. And

6:06

I think this is maybe a

6:08

good lead in. Tom to three

6:10

steps that you've surfaced in thinking

6:12

about this and your first invitation

6:15

is to is to think about

6:17

your work and to talk about

6:19

it. Tell me more about that.

6:21

Well, you know, I'm a coach.

6:23

So I often think that my

6:25

job is to get people to

6:27

talk out loud so that they

6:30

can discover their own thinking. And

6:32

I find that to be true

6:34

all the time that insightful questions.

6:37

Helps them deepen their own thinking it's

6:39

not that I have the insight they're

6:41

gonna have the insight about their own

6:43

situation their own work their own relationships

6:45

and I do think we all experience

6:48

this you know being in relationship with

6:50

our partners or our family or our

6:52

friends that you know we're suddenly over

6:54

a meal talking about our work and

6:56

we say something we go. That's a

6:58

good idea I I hadn't thought of

7:00

that before and what kind of surfaced

7:03

it for you. Is the mental process

7:05

of having to articulate your ideas so

7:07

my feeling is if you would like

7:09

to get better at taking initiative the

7:11

very first thing you need to do

7:13

is to start. Thinking actively about

7:15

your work now maybe you're an

7:17

introvert and maybe you think by reflection

7:20

and you don't need to be

7:22

talking to people that's okay. But

7:24

to devote the time specifically to

7:26

say what's going on at my

7:28

work you're not saying how can

7:30

i take more initiative yours you're

7:33

thinking about your work. because ideas

7:35

will surface or talk to people

7:37

about your work and ideas will

7:39

surface. That's step one. I

7:41

am constantly amazed at

7:43

my own inability to

7:46

see outside of my

7:48

own perspective without getting

7:50

in conversation with others

7:52

and how I can

7:54

so easily miss stuff.

7:57

And I also see a Tom

7:59

in our Academy cohorts. when

8:01

someone brings a situation to one

8:03

of our cohorts and we're

8:05

talking through it and we have

8:08

a whole process for how

8:10

we do that. And it's really

8:12

fascinating how what is immediately

8:14

apparent to three or four other

8:16

people in the conversation that

8:18

the person who's in the middle

8:20

of the politics, the emotion, the

8:23

situation can't see. And I've

8:25

seen it now on both sides

8:27

so many times that I

8:29

recognize that the importance of reflecting,

8:31

getting other people involved, having

8:33

other data points in just in

8:35

order to see things that

8:37

otherwise you can't see that are

8:39

blind spots. Yeah. Isn't

8:41

it amazing? It's wonderful. Again,

8:44

it's part of why my work is so

8:46

gratifying. It's not that I'm doing the magic.

8:48

It's that the magic happens. Yeah.

8:52

The thing that has

8:54

been An indicator that

8:56

I've noticed both in

8:58

myself and in the

9:00

people I work with

9:03

at this step of

9:05

like, okay, in thinking

9:07

about it and talking about something

9:09

in an ambiguous ambiguous situation. If

9:11

I could talk of like, should

9:13

I do something or not is

9:15

one indicator that tends to come

9:17

up a lot is do I

9:20

feel like I'm waiting for someone

9:22

else? Yeah, right.

9:24

And I've noticed that sometimes

9:26

legitimately I or someone else

9:28

needs to wait for someone

9:30

else because it's a policy

9:32

decision because there's an approval

9:35

because there's some sort of

9:37

formal thing that needs to

9:39

happen. I found more often

9:41

though that that feeling of

9:43

I'm waiting on someone else

9:45

is that the someone else

9:48

is not going to happen.

9:50

You know, it's sort of an indicator

9:52

that like, okay, if I'm, if

9:55

I find myself in noticing myself waiting

9:57

on other people a lot, that

9:59

actually I've realized over time that like

10:01

that may be an indicator coming

10:03

back to me or whoever the person's

10:05

waiting that like, oh, maybe I

10:07

should be the one taking the first

10:10

step on this. I also

10:12

think it echoes back to that idea

10:14

of will it be well received? And

10:16

that may be part of the fear, too. It's

10:18

like, well, I could do that, but I'm not

10:20

sure if I should do that, right? Is it

10:22

in the eye of the beholder again? So it

10:24

might be a little bit of that, too. So

10:26

I think there's many reasons that

10:29

might block us or inhibit us from

10:31

taking more initiative. And hopefully this

10:33

conversation is going to help. Yeah,

10:35

indeed. And I actually wanted to

10:37

ask you about that because the

10:39

first point you've made here is

10:41

thinking, talking about what's happening, talking

10:43

about your work, getting out of

10:46

your own perspective, taking some time

10:48

to reflect whatever that looks like.

10:50

The second step is going to

10:53

be executing on your idea, which

10:55

we're going to get to in

10:57

a moment. But I am sort

10:59

of curious if there's like a

11:01

step 1 .5 here in some situations

11:03

of assuming I do that talking

11:05

and thinking, and maybe I've

11:07

decided that I'm going to try

11:09

something. Do I tell? other

11:11

people what i'm about to do before

11:13

i do it or do i not

11:15

and i can sort of make a

11:18

case either way and i'm i'm curious

11:20

how you think about it listen i

11:22

i think communication is a crucial part

11:24

of taking initiative so that you don't

11:26

step off a cliff i mean yes

11:28

i think that's really important and it

11:30

might be step one point five maybe

11:32

but this really simple three -step model

11:34

that i was thinking about was in

11:36

order to literally just kick yourself off

11:38

the diving board and it's why i

11:40

put as number two is execute. Right?

11:43

So I'm thinking about my work. I'm talking to

11:45

you. I have this idea. Do it.

11:47

That's number two. Do it. And

11:49

again, with the understanding that

11:51

you're being thoughtful, with the understanding that

11:53

you've asked the question, should I, you've

11:56

asked the question, should I let people

11:58

know first or whatever? Let's assume that.

12:00

But my point is, if you can

12:02

think about all that and there's no

12:04

reason to hesitate, do it.

12:07

Just do it and make agreements with

12:09

yourself. How far will you go?

12:11

Will you go one step and then

12:13

turn to your boss and go,

12:15

I want to tell you something I'm

12:17

doing? Or will you go

12:19

four steps and then turn to your boss and

12:21

say, I want to tell you something that I'm

12:23

doing? So I think you

12:25

need to be thinking about that. Like, how

12:27

far am I going? How big a step

12:29

am I taking? And that's part

12:31

of your job here in steps one and

12:34

two, thinking about your work and executing on

12:36

it. You need to know. Really,

12:38

what are you going to do and be

12:40

really clear about it? So that if someone does

12:42

come up to you and say, what are

12:44

you doing? You can explain it. And

12:47

you highlighted for

12:49

me a scale that

12:51

goes from on

12:53

one side being really

12:55

cautious and on

12:58

the other side being

13:00

very bold. And

13:02

I think in most situations, we

13:05

don't want to be on the extreme. of

13:07

either of those sides, but kind

13:09

of picturing where we are and

13:11

maybe nudging a bit, right? Yeah.

13:14

Yeah, if we think about

13:16

those two ends of the

13:19

continuum as they relate to

13:21

initiatives specifically. Yes,

13:23

I think what I've learned

13:25

from my clients, what I've learned

13:27

in my own life is

13:29

that there is always room to

13:31

move towards bold, even if

13:33

it's just 5%. Not a lot.

13:35

But if you were to ask yourself

13:38

If I were five percent more

13:40

bold in my work tomorrow, what would

13:42

I do? And I believe that

13:44

something will come to your mind Because

13:46

I think we all have a

13:48

little room to grow on that side

13:50

not because we're fearful or timid

13:52

or anything But because we're doing everything

13:55

that we know we've got enough

13:57

work to keep us busy. We're We're

13:59

not sitting thinking about initiative. We're

14:01

doing what we're there to do. So

14:03

I think this does often take

14:05

a little focus. And I love the

14:07

thought exercise of, if I were

14:09

5 % more bold tomorrow, what would

14:12

I do? And

14:14

it's really interesting that when

14:16

I think about all the

14:18

situations, all the conversations I've

14:20

been involved with in recent

14:22

years and with our members

14:25

and listeners, it's

14:27

pretty rare I run into

14:29

someone in a situation where

14:31

They're being too bold, but

14:33

okay, then it does happen

14:35

like yeah, but but I

14:37

think that's really helpful if

14:40

that's really your evidence and

14:42

your experience It's helpful for

14:44

all of us who are

14:46

cautious or worry. It's great.

14:48

Most of the time. It's

14:50

fine do it. Yeah, and But

14:52

I but I'm indexing on

14:54

my own experience here and with

14:57

our members who by and

14:59

large are people who are really

15:01

thoughtful Thinking deeply about

15:03

leadership and the kind of folks who

15:05

listen to show are just like

15:07

I think a really really special unique

15:09

kind of person who really thinks

15:11

deeply about this and not every leader

15:14

does and you in particular sometimes

15:16

work with folks who are pretty disruptive

15:18

in their work I'm curious like

15:20

do you see people who run into

15:22

the two bold and and and

15:24

if in when you do What are

15:26

the indicators that okay? Maybe they've

15:29

over indexed on that a bit Oh,

15:31

for sure. Yes, those people are

15:33

absolutely out there. And I'm so glad

15:35

that you kind of remind us

15:37

that, yes, this isn't for everybody. Some

15:40

people are too far indexed on

15:42

the bold line. Yes. What

15:45

happens is people tend to

15:47

get angry at those people. Because

15:49

they're breaking boundaries. They're breaking

15:51

agreements. They're rushing ahead. It often

15:53

looks very self -serving. It

15:55

also looks tone deaf. Like, are you

15:57

not paying attention? So, yes,

15:59

you're absolutely right. In order to

16:01

do this well, this initiative, I

16:04

think you and I are assuming

16:06

that we are talking to people

16:08

who are like in your academy,

16:10

who are thoughtful about their work

16:12

and reflective about their own behaviors.

16:14

Yes, I agree. And the reason

16:16

I mention that is because I think like... Oftentimes,

16:19

when we get into a conversation about this,

16:22

when I get into a conversation about this with

16:24

anyone, and even myself, I, despite

16:26

all evidence to the contrary, I

16:28

think sometimes, oh, am I that bold,

16:30

jerk person that's like doing too

16:32

much, going too far, and Almost always

16:34

I'm indexing the other way actually

16:36

too much and the people I'm working

16:38

with are indexing the other way

16:40

But I think it's like it's interesting

16:42

a lot of us fear being

16:44

that person who's doing too much who's

16:46

being too bold who's being too

16:48

aggressive and making people angry and as

16:50

a result it It stops us

16:52

from actually doing the things that would

16:54

be taking healthy initiative in our

16:57

organizations Yes, it yes, it stops people

16:59

but You know, I have this

17:01

conversation with people as a coach. I

17:03

have this conversation with people all

17:05

the time, Dave, who say kind of

17:07

what you say of like, well,

17:09

I don't want to overstep my bounds

17:11

and I don't want to step

17:13

on people's toes. And I usually ask,

17:15

as I would ask of you,

17:17

is that actually your pattern? Because

17:19

what you've actually told me is

17:21

that going back to early in

17:23

your career, you're actually calibrated to

17:25

be more towards the midline than

17:27

bold down the line. That's not

17:29

actually your inclination. And I think

17:31

most people can picture where

17:33

they are on that continuum. And

17:36

if they really feel like they're pretty far down

17:38

the bold line, well, they might want to get

17:40

some feedback and check that out. But I think

17:42

most of us are closer to the midline and

17:45

could move a little further down. Oh,

17:47

I love that question. Is that your pattern? That's

17:49

such a helpful way to think about this. And

17:52

that's a good lead into

17:54

speaking of communication. The

17:56

third step here, which is, of course,

17:58

we talked about The thinking the talking

18:00

about the work we talked about executing

18:02

on the idea trying something. Step

18:05

three, communication. What

18:07

does that look like? Well,

18:10

I think it looks like

18:12

advocating for what you're doing. It's

18:14

becoming an advocate for the idea

18:16

that you had. It's

18:18

not about you personally. It's

18:21

that you are somehow improving

18:23

something, changing something, making something

18:25

better. And you're going

18:27

to go tell that story. So maybe

18:29

you need to put some data together,

18:31

then make a slide, maybe, I

18:33

don't know what, maybe you're gonna a story to tell

18:36

or an anecdote. I don't know,

18:38

but you want to show people

18:40

the beginning of this work, to

18:42

get them on board, to get

18:44

them to be advocates, to get

18:46

momentum behind it. Again, not as

18:48

self -advocacy, you're trying to be

18:50

of service to the work. And

18:52

the key distinction I'm hearing there is

18:54

you advocating for the idea versus

18:56

advocating for yourself, right? That's so key.

18:59

Well, I think that's part of the

19:01

whole thing about initiative. Those people that

19:03

you talked about who are over -indexed, way

19:05

down on the bold line, I think

19:07

we see them as self -serving because

19:09

I think it's easy for initiative to

19:11

look self -serving sometimes. Like, you're just

19:13

doing that as self -promotion, pal. Like, what are

19:15

you doing? But I

19:17

think when we come at any

19:20

initiative, with the idea of

19:22

service. It completely changes it and

19:24

it changes your ideas too. If

19:26

I'm thinking about how the work could be

19:28

better, I'm probably going to have one idea. If

19:30

I think about how can I get a

19:32

promotion, I might have a very different idea and

19:35

I want to say how I can get

19:37

a promotion is a really important way to be

19:39

thinking about your work. I'm just saying that

19:41

doesn't necessarily mean taking initiative. So

19:43

I think often our initiative, let

19:46

me say this in a different way,

19:48

what we don't want is we

19:50

don't want our initiative to look self

19:52

-serving. We want it to look like

19:54

we're being helpful to the business. And

19:57

I think coming at even your

19:59

thinking about your work, right, all

20:01

three of these steps, I think

20:03

you can ask yourself, who's benefiting here?

20:05

If I'm going to do this,

20:07

who wins? And if it's not

20:09

only you, by the way, it's great if it

20:12

is you, by the way, I'm all for that.

20:14

But it shouldn't only be you. If the team

20:16

is going to be better, customer's gonna

20:18

be better, the outcome's gonna be better. Go

20:20

for it and then communicate about it. One,

20:23

two, three. One of my favorite quotes of

20:25

all time is from the late Zig Ziglar

20:27

who said, you can have everything in life

20:29

you want if you'll just help enough other

20:31

people get what they want. And

20:33

I think about that in the context

20:36

of what you just said, Tom, because you,

20:38

one of the mindsets that you

20:40

invited me to think about

20:42

even before this conversation is, calibrate

20:45

yourself to helping people. Like

20:47

if you calibrate that first, then

20:49

you're so much more likely to stick

20:51

with the ideas, the big picture, the how

20:54

am I helping the organization and less

20:56

about the what does this necessarily mean for

20:58

me and selfishness and all that. I'll

21:00

add something. If you are

21:02

known as a helper, a contributor,

21:05

then you will get invited

21:07

places. You will get invited onto

21:09

projects. You will get

21:11

invited to meet people. You

21:13

will have opportunities to take

21:15

initiative because helpers are brought

21:17

along. So yeah, if

21:19

you can calibrate yourself to helping

21:21

people, oh yeah, I think it's

21:23

a great way to think about

21:26

that as an initiative that you

21:28

do and opportunities to take initiative

21:30

will show up. One

21:32

of the obstacles I know you

21:34

hear from people in conversations when

21:37

talking about this is that

21:39

I don't know enough yet. And

21:42

I like I'm not sure what to do

21:44

and I don't have all the information or

21:46

the experience. When you hear that from people,

21:48

what do you invite them to do? Well,

21:51

I do a little ass

21:53

kicking Dave. I mean,

21:55

if they go, I don't know enough

21:57

yet. My answer back is like, well, what

21:59

do you need to know? And

22:01

why don't you know it? Is it

22:03

available or are you just worried? Because

22:06

if the information is available, then go.

22:08

That's part of the initiative. Go

22:10

find out what you need to know. So

22:12

that's the first part. There's

22:14

another thing, too, though, which,

22:16

again, with

22:19

people who aren't as bold as

22:21

they could be, I really

22:23

encourage them. Could they just

22:25

make an assumption and move

22:27

forward on that assumption? And

22:29

then that's the execution part. And then

22:31

you're going to communicate about the assumption and

22:33

find out. Can you do

22:35

that? And I know that for some people, that

22:38

feels like a risk. I

22:40

want to just go back to the beginning

22:42

to make sure that this is really clear.

22:44

What you and I are talking about is

22:46

a mind block that people have. Well, you

22:48

know, I really would like to do that,

22:50

but I'm not sure. I just don't know

22:52

enough yet. When you hear that in your

22:54

own head, I want to say either go

22:56

find out the answer or make an assumption,

22:58

a reasonable assumption that suits the business and

23:00

suits what you're doing. Try it

23:02

out. and then communicate about it.

23:05

But so let me just ask it back to

23:07

you. I'm proposing two different things. What are you?

23:09

How do these sound? Oh, it

23:11

sounds so sensible and logical

23:13

and kind of going back

23:16

to where we started. How

23:18

often we just don't see

23:20

it and we don't see

23:23

where to begin. And so

23:25

I think like part of

23:27

this is just the noticing.

23:30

the thinking about it the okay if

23:32

i feel like i'm waiting on

23:34

people or i feel like things aren't

23:36

clear or i'm sensing ambiguity that

23:38

that's like the room that's an indicator

23:40

likely okay it's time to do

23:42

something with that of oh i need

23:44

to go find some more information

23:47

or i need to have questions and

23:49

i think to your point earlier

23:51

is this is an opportunity to also

23:53

engage in Conversation with

23:55

people and find out like do other people

23:57

have this information do other people know

23:59

like am I like how we're just not

24:01

I think we're We often have fear

24:03

of just asking like the kind of the

24:06

basic sometimes obvious question, but sometimes that's

24:08

a question that needs to be asked I

24:10

Don't know what did be in conversation

24:12

with people. I listen. I think in some

24:14

ways that's taking initiative. Can

24:16

I tell a quick story? I was

24:18

having breakfast with a friend the

24:20

other day and his kid is new

24:22

at one of the big state

24:24

universities in the Midwest and he's into

24:26

sports management and there was this

24:29

opportunity. He's a freshman, remember? There's

24:31

this opportunity and he had to write an essay and

24:33

all this stuff and so he calls his dad and

24:35

he goes, you know, God, you help me with my

24:37

essay? And his dad goes, why

24:39

don't you just go talk to the coach? And

24:42

he was like, well, I'm supposed to write an essay

24:44

and he was like, Well, why don't you go

24:46

ask the coach what makes a good essay? And

24:48

he was like, can I do that? And

24:50

the dad goes, yeah, just go talk

24:52

to him. The kid goes down

24:54

the hall, sits down, talks to the coach.

24:56

The coach says, you want this

24:58

job? It's yours if you want it.

25:00

Because he took initiative. He walked down

25:02

the hall and went to talk to the coach. And

25:05

that idea, right?

25:09

He was like, I don't know enough yet.

25:11

No, just go do it. And

25:13

it also speaks to the thing that

25:15

I think you were talking about earlier, which

25:17

is you were hearing go take more

25:19

initiative and you couldn't see how. Right. Right.

25:22

So this idea, one of the things that

25:24

you and I are talking about at the

25:26

moment is this idea when I hear I

25:28

don't know enough that I'm going to make

25:30

an assumption. What's important is to know you've

25:32

made an assumption because that helps you communicate

25:34

later. to say, look, I didn't know this.

25:36

So I made this assumption, it's going to

25:38

be this way. And then I took that

25:40

action. And then people go, oh, I see

25:42

that. By the way, bad assumption, wish you

25:44

hadn't done it. But at least, you know,

25:46

it wasn't just you being impulsive. So that

25:48

idea of having some self -awareness, self -knowledge, I

25:50

am making an assumption, I'm going to act

25:52

on this assumption and we'll see where it

25:54

goes. I think that's another way to take

25:56

an initiative and give yourself permission to do

25:58

it. There's two things you mentioned to me

26:00

leading up to this conversation that I wanted

26:02

to loop back on. And I don't know

26:04

if we've talked about either of them yet.

26:06

But if we haven't, you said you had

26:08

a trick on thinking about this. And I'm

26:11

wondering if you'd share that. Yes,

26:13

I do. This

26:15

became a trick because it was

26:18

something that happened to me and

26:20

I suddenly realized, oh, this is

26:22

happening. Many, many,

26:24

many, many years ago, I

26:26

made a commitment to myself that

26:28

I would no longer ask

26:30

questions in emails. And

26:32

the reason why was because I felt that

26:34

any time I asked a question, I

26:36

was giving the receiver work. And

26:38

that's not my place to give

26:40

the receiver work. That's not my

26:42

intention with the email. So I

26:45

started to say to myself, no

26:47

questions. If you have a question, see if

26:49

you can turn it into a statement. And

26:51

what ended up happening over time was I

26:53

had to make decisions. And

26:55

so I want to say, if

26:57

you want to take more initiative, try

27:00

asking no questions. in an

27:02

email. Make statements because you

27:04

will have to make choices. You will

27:06

have to be clear about your

27:08

position to make a statement. And

27:10

it forces you to take initiative. It's

27:12

been a really interesting experience for me. Fascinating.

27:15

I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that

27:18

this week. I love it. Oh, I'm going to

27:20

be curious if it's easy, hard, if you think it's

27:22

worth it. Yeah, I'd love to hear about it.

27:24

Oh, I'm sure it'll be hard. And I also think

27:26

it'll be really useful to try it because, yeah.

27:28

The other thing that you mentioned leading

27:30

up to this conversation, and maybe you already

27:33

shared the story, I don't know, but

27:35

you said you had a growing up story

27:37

about Taken Initiative and the challenge it

27:39

brought. Would you tell it? So

27:41

this goes back to me as a

27:43

kid growing up. I was the youngest

27:45

of four kids, two parents, household of

27:47

six. Running a house of

27:49

six can be chaos. And

27:51

one of the things, looking back now especially, one

27:54

the things I think my parents did

27:56

really well was to create Moments

27:58

where the family worked together for the next

28:00

part of the day or the next

28:02

event or whatever it was so we'd be

28:04

playing games and then everybody pitches into

28:06

cleanup or Everybody sets the table or clears

28:08

the dish or whatever and it's it's

28:10

a group thing so as an extrovert and

28:12

a little kid who I just loved

28:14

because I was the youngest I was loved

28:16

I loved being included It was a

28:19

good match for me, but what other things

28:21

I learned as I continued to grow

28:23

up and get older And, you know,

28:25

life in the house, not everybody's in the same room

28:27

at the same time, but sometimes you show up. And

28:29

one of the things my parents taught me was, if

28:31

you see everybody working, pitch

28:33

in. Don't take that as an opportunity

28:35

to go to the bathroom. Like,

28:37

pitch in. And if you don't know

28:40

what to do, ask. But there's

28:42

always something to do. So look around

28:44

and figure it out. And that

28:46

was really helpful for me as a

28:48

team participant, as someone who tended

28:50

to work in large teams, especially when

28:52

I was in the theater. that

28:54

there was always something to do and having

28:56

that as an idea. So that made me take

28:58

initiative and that part of it was really

29:00

helpful. What I found, Dave,

29:02

and here was where the challenge came. When

29:05

I moved into a leadership role, like

29:07

for example, the first time I directed

29:09

a play, I was used to being part

29:12

of the team and taking initiative as

29:14

a team member where it's pretty clear how

29:16

to help. If you look around and

29:18

you know the work, it's pretty clear how

29:20

you can pitch in. But when you're

29:22

the leader you're suddenly making the work and

29:24

I was like that I had the

29:26

very first time I've worked with designers I'm

29:29

an interrupt myself. I knew how to

29:31

take care of my actors I had been

29:33

an actor so I could lead my

29:35

actors and took plenty of initiative with them

29:37

I knew what they needed But

29:39

my first two designers were all over me.

29:41

They were like, they were basically saying, you

29:43

don't know how to direct a play, pal,

29:46

because I didn't know how to take initiative

29:48

for them and make the decisions they needed

29:50

so they could do their work. I didn't

29:52

know how to do that. And

29:54

my growing up as pleasant as it

29:56

was and as useful as it was,

29:58

didn't help me there. And I found that

30:00

I was shy and a little slow

30:02

to learn. So it was an

30:04

interesting way. When I was part of

30:06

a team, I could take initiative. When I

30:08

was a sole leader, it was harder

30:10

for me. What helped

30:13

you shift like that first

30:15

experience of directing a play

30:17

and then the second, the

30:19

third that made it a

30:21

bit better? Opening night. No,

30:26

but I'm serious. Like you don't have a choice.

30:28

I mean, you could put on a plate. It's

30:30

crappy. But if you have a choice, why would

30:32

you do that? So I mean,

30:34

I. Learned as fast as I

30:36

could because opening night is coming

30:38

and I wanted the play to

30:40

be good. That was really my

30:43

motivator was Yeah, there's no time

30:45

get to work So, you know,

30:47

yeah, that was a good motivator

30:49

Tom Henshaw is the host of

30:51

the look and sound of leadership

30:53

my favorite podcast on leadership He's

30:55

an executive coach and he's a

30:58

dear friend Tom. It is always

31:00

a pleasure. My words exactly always

31:02

a pleasure Many

31:09

of you have told me over the

31:11

years that it's so helpful here at the

31:14

end of episodes to hear related conversations,

31:16

other episodes that I think will be helpful

31:18

to you. And I know many of

31:20

you go down those rabbit holes and have

31:22

been really helpful in illuminating more resources

31:24

on a particular topic. And I stole that

31:26

idea from Tom Henshel. I absolutely did

31:28

because I thought it was so great. He's

31:31

been doing that for years on the

31:33

Look and Sound of Leadership podcast. I started

31:35

doing the same thing. So many of

31:37

you have told me that's great. In the

31:39

spirit of giving back, I love to

31:41

share a few episodes from Tom's podcast, The

31:43

Look and Sound of Leadership that I

31:45

think you should listen to. Some of my

31:48

favorites in recent years. One of them

31:50

is episode 166 on The Look and Sound

31:52

of Leadership, Leadership versus Management. Tom

31:54

does a beautiful job in this

31:56

episode of painting the distinction between leadership

31:58

and management. They are different, they're

32:00

related, and I get this question a

32:02

lot from our members. What is

32:04

the difference? How do you think about

32:06

it? How do you define them?

32:08

Tom details that beautifully in episode 166

32:10

of his show and really paints

32:12

the picture of management being about answering.

32:15

complexity, leadership is the answer to change.

32:18

And he goes into much more

32:20

detail there. It's a wonderful, concise way

32:22

to think about it. It lines

32:24

up exactly with how I think about

32:26

it as well. Also recommended his

32:28

episode 239 five strategies for dealing with

32:30

narcissists. It's just the reality that

32:32

many of us will at some point

32:34

work for someone who displays narcissistic

32:36

tendencies, they do tend to show up

32:39

in greater numbers in executive leadership,

32:41

unfortunately, in a lot of organizations. And

32:43

so how deal with that? I

32:45

hope you're not working for a narcissist

32:47

right now. It's a difficult thing

32:49

when you are. But if you are,

32:51

five strategies from his episode 239,

32:53

I think will really help you to

32:55

start to take some practical steps

32:57

to navigate a tough situation like that.

33:00

Also recommended his episode 250, how

33:02

to answer Tell us about yourself. That's

33:04

the question a lot of us

33:06

have gotten before. Oftentimes it comes up

33:08

in interview situations. It's also

33:10

the conversation that inspired this conversation.

33:12

When I heard that episode, I thought,

33:14

ooh, that's an ambiguous question. And

33:16

it got us thinking about how we

33:18

actually handle situations where there isn't

33:20

always a clear answer or one way

33:22

to do things. And Tom really

33:24

goes into detail in that episode of

33:26

how to paint that picture

33:28

really beautifully when you do get

33:30

that question, how to make it

33:32

work for you. And then finally,

33:35

I'd recommend his episode two 54,

33:37

how to talk so people understand

33:39

you. Tom has been teaching for

33:41

years, a framework called sorting and

33:43

labeling. Bonnie and I use it

33:45

all the time in our communications to

33:47

help people understand our message. He's been a

33:49

wonderful coach to us on this. And

33:51

so many of you have told me how

33:54

valuable Tom's methodology on sorting and labeling

33:56

is. If you need. people to understand you

33:58

better, or if you regularly find that

34:00

people aren't getting the message, episode 254 of

34:02

the look and sound of leadership would

34:04

be a great place to start. And I'd

34:06

of course recommend listening to Tom's show.

34:08

It's airs once a month for about 20,

34:10

25 minutes. It's a great compliment

34:12

to coaching for leaders. Thanks, Tom, for

34:14

all your resources and your mentorship and

34:17

friendship over the years. In addition to

34:19

that, I'd recommend going over to coachingforleaders.com.

34:21

And if you set up your free

34:23

membership, you're going to get access to

34:25

a whole bunch resources. One

34:27

of them is the ability to search

34:29

in the library by topics. You

34:31

can find exactly what is relevant to

34:33

you right now. One of those

34:36

topic areas is Tom because Tom's been

34:38

on the show so many times

34:40

over the years. We've databaseed all the

34:42

episodes he's been on. So if

34:44

you're looking for more episodes we've had

34:46

with him over the years inside

34:48

of the free membership, just look for

34:50

Tom Henshaw's name in there. You'll

34:52

find that along with dozens of other

34:54

categories of resources that'll be useful

34:56

to you right now. And if you'd

34:58

like a bit more, you might

35:00

want to check out Coaching for Leaders

35:02

Plus every single week. I am

35:05

writing a journal entry and I'm sharing

35:07

it with you on email so

35:09

that you can take the next step

35:11

on something that's important right now

35:13

and how you lead. And just this

35:15

past week or two, one of

35:17

our members mentioned a difficult conversation they're

35:19

having with a stakeholder and a

35:21

stakeholder who's not very trusting right now.

35:23

And we talked about how we

35:25

can do a better job at actually

35:27

building relationships with stakeholders, especially when

35:29

there isn't trust. I penned a recent

35:31

journal entry on how to make

35:34

your stakeholders shine. key principles I've used

35:36

over the years. I've seen work

35:38

for others and where to begin. It's

35:40

one of the recent journal entries.

35:42

You can find it inside Coaching for

35:44

Leaders Plus. If you'd like to

35:46

discover more about that, just go to

35:48

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35:50

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35:54

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35:58

Thanks always for the privilege to

36:01

support you and I'll be back

36:03

next Monday for our next conversation

36:05

on leadership