0:00

This message comes from Mattress Firm.

0:02

to get get sleep this holiday

0:04

season? Mattress Firm offers a

0:06

premium selection of mattresses so

0:08

you can get your best

0:10

sleep best even through the

0:12

holiday stress. Get matched at

0:14

Mattress Firm's semi -annual sale clearance

0:16

and sleep at night. night. Before

0:18

we get into the episode, I wanted to

0:20

take a minute to ask for your help.

0:22

a We wanna hear from our listeners about

0:24

what you like about hear from our how we could

0:26

do better. what you like can tell

0:28

us what you think by

0:30

taking our survey at

0:32

npr .org by taking our survey. slash

0:35

you. Switch Survey. Thank you.

0:37

Hey everyone, you're you're listening

0:39

to Code the show about race

0:41

and identity from NPR from .A.

0:43

Parker. and B.A. Parker. And I'm Jean

0:45

Dunby. Jean. Do you think it's

0:47

possible for us to ever live in the live

0:49

in a utopia? You people are skipping

0:51

around with tie where you know

0:53

I mean? it around with I don't

0:55

know, know what I various I don't know, various nut

0:57

milks people. In this current

1:00

climate, no. climate? No, absolutely mean, all you

1:02

need is a blender is a time,

1:04

but when you put it when that, it

1:06

it that, it sounds you trying to live

1:08

in trying something? live in a utopia or something? I

1:10

don't know. I I just need the

1:12

possibility of a place where I

1:14

feel safe. I feel safe. Or it's

1:17

rather where black people feel

1:19

safe. safe. Have you had that

1:21

that before? Well, from from

1:23

Baltimore, which already like

1:25

a black a black utopia.

1:27

What? Really? I mean, I mean.

1:30

it's a predominantly black city

1:32

it was a was a space

1:34

where growing up I

1:36

was surrounded by black people

1:38

who felt proud proud and were

1:40

allowed to be who be who they

1:42

were unencumbered. And honestly, it it wasn't

1:44

until I was surrounded by white

1:46

people. white people in in middle school

1:48

I I started, know, don't know, feeling

1:50

bad about myself. And then then I went

1:52

to like a a Black High I went

1:55

to an HBCU for college, and

1:57

then then felt I felt great again, I felt

1:59

good again. Okay, yeah, okay, but

2:01

I'm wondering if there's a

2:03

difference between a space that

2:05

felt safe for you and

2:07

like a utopia. You wouldn't

2:09

say your HPCU was a

2:11

utopia, would you? And also

2:13

like, black folks are not

2:15

going to agree on what

2:17

safety even looks like, you

2:19

know what I mean? Yeah,

2:21

I mean, not to say

2:23

that black folk don't have

2:25

our own problems, but I

2:28

am a black woman in

2:30

the world today, and especially

2:32

in this political time, hostility

2:34

towards people like me becomes

2:36

more brazen when people in

2:38

power seem cool with it.

2:40

And I think about safety

2:42

and security, and I find

2:44

myself yearning again for a

2:46

space where I feel safe

2:48

and free. And it has

2:50

me wondering, does that have

2:52

to be a black space?

2:54

Right, because if you're trying

2:56

to make an intentional utopian

2:58

community somewhere, doesn't some shared

3:00

ethos, you know what I

3:02

mean? Some common cause matter

3:04

more than a common identity.

3:06

These are all questions that

3:08

Aaron Robertson was puzzling through

3:10

in his new book, The

3:12

Black Utopians. In it, Aaron

3:14

explores the black enclaves that

3:17

came about post-reconstruction all the

3:19

way up to today. And

3:21

he asks this big question,

3:23

what does a black Utopia

3:25

look like? It can be

3:27

a lot of different things.

3:30

And one of the places that

3:32

fits the bill for Aaron might

3:34

surprise you. Detroit, the city that

3:36

tends to be thought of, I

3:39

think, as a kind of American

3:41

dystopia. All right, Parker. Let's hear

3:43

it. Support for the following message

3:45

come Support

3:48

for the following message come from

3:50

from LinkedIn ads. With LinkedIn ads, you can

3:52

reach professionals relevant to your business.

3:54

your Target them by them by job industry,

3:57

company, and title, more by launching

3:59

your next campaign with a free with

4:01

a free credit at at LinkedIn. for

4:05

the Support for the

4:07

following message come from from LinkedIn ads.

4:09

With LinkedIn ads, you can reach professionals

4:11

relevant to your business. your Target

4:14

them by them by job industry, company, and

4:16

title, more by launching your next

4:18

campaign with a free with a free credit

4:20

at at LinkedIn. This

4:25

comes from Better Help. This holiday season, do do

4:27

something for a special person in

4:29

your life. life. You. Give Give yourself the

4:31

gift of better mental health. BetterHelp online

4:33

therapy connects you with a qualified

4:35

therapist via phone, video, or or live

4:37

chat. It's convenient and affordable, and can

4:39

be done from the comfort of

4:41

your own home. your Having someone to

4:43

talk to is truly a gift, a

4:45

especially during the holidays. Visit

4:47

betterhelp.com/ to get get

4:49

off your first month. This

4:52

message comes from NPR sponsor

4:54

Lands Outfitters. I

4:56

was like, everyday life. I just

4:59

died and came back. the

5:01

first thing you came back. And the Do

5:03

you need any money? ask is, do you need any

5:05

life stories, life really good ones,

5:07

really your podcast feed, your This

5:09

American feed, this American life. I

5:16

I started out talking with Aaron

5:18

Robertson about what makes a makes

5:20

a black utopia, he told me that

5:22

some of the places he

5:24

thinks of as utopias are pretty

5:26

surprising to the people who

5:29

haven't experienced them them firsthand. as soon

5:31

as you leave Detroit and tell

5:33

people where you're from. from,

5:35

will ask, ask, so it like being there? being

5:37

I think when I was a kid,

5:39

I I would internalize a lot of

5:41

that. a lot of that. And

5:43

would be so focused on

5:46

images of dilapidated homes

5:48

and abandoned factories factories, and less

5:50

concentrated on the stories

5:52

of the people who were

5:54

there who were were always

5:56

making their home into a

5:58

much better place. place. I

6:00

was curious about what it

6:02

would be like to tell

6:05

a story about Detroit and

6:07

about other places where black

6:09

people have thrived that was

6:11

a counter-narrative of sorts. And

6:13

also, I grew up going

6:15

to this small town in

6:17

Tennessee west of Nashville called

6:20

Promise Land, where my dad's

6:22

dad was born. We would

6:24

go down there every summer

6:26

for family reunions and gatherings.

6:28

And when I was a

6:30

kid, I didn't have a

6:33

great appreciation, I think, for

6:35

the historic weight of a

6:37

place like this. But as

6:39

I got older, I realized

6:41

that, okay, not all black

6:43

people come from towns like

6:46

this, which is a very

6:48

simple thing, but there were

6:50

so many other stories of

6:52

black towns throughout the country.

6:54

like in the South, in

6:56

the West, and I wanted

6:59

to write about these spaces

7:01

that black people have created

7:03

throughout time, these safe havens,

7:05

that in some ways were

7:07

outside of mainstream narratives, and

7:09

I wanted to trace a

7:12

broad history of these black

7:14

utopian spaces and ways of

7:16

thinking about these spaces, too.

7:19

Okay, so in your mind,

7:21

what is considered a black

7:23

utopia? Like, is it just

7:26

simply a safe space or

7:28

a safe haven for the

7:30

Black Collective? I think Black

7:32

utopia can have so many

7:34

meanings, like, which is the

7:36

great and frustrating thing about

7:38

it, right? I think there

7:40

are these real physical spaces

7:43

that African Americans have carved

7:45

out in order to experience

7:47

a sense of community, sure,

7:49

but also These are spaces

7:51

where black people have been

7:53

able to imagine alternatives to

7:55

the social, economic, and political

7:58

restrictions that historically have been

8:00

on black people. So, you

8:02

know, Utopia is a way

8:05

of relating to other people.

8:07

It is ways of reinforcing

8:09

the dignity of yourself and

8:11

of your neighbor. And I

8:13

think when you live in

8:15

a world that has been

8:17

trying to tell you as

8:19

a black person, that maybe

8:22

you aren't worth much, finding

8:24

spaces where you can push

8:26

back against that, I think

8:28

is fundamental. I'm going to

8:30

do something terrible. I'm going

8:32

to read you to you.

8:34

Oh my gosh. And I

8:37

just, I want to apologize

8:39

immediately. You ask this question

8:41

only on in the book.

8:43

You say, quote, How have

8:45

black people, together and alone,

8:47

created good places from the

8:49

various nowheres to which they

8:51

have been consigned for centuries?

8:54

The dark town, the ghetto,

8:56

the reform school, the internment

8:58

camps, the segregated church, the

9:00

former plantation site, the riot-scarred

9:02

street, and is in my

9:04

father's case, the prison? Did

9:06

you answer that question for

9:08

yourself? In part, yeah. So

9:11

a part of the book

9:13

is about my own relationship

9:15

with my father, for example.

9:17

From the time I was

9:19

eight, until I was 18,

9:21

we were separated because he

9:23

was incarcerated. And we exchanged

9:26

letters during that time, and

9:28

I would sometimes, you know,

9:30

like visit him as a

9:32

child, but there was always

9:34

some kind of distance between

9:36

us. And I know that

9:38

he was grappling with his

9:40

life in prison, he was

9:43

grappling with the life that

9:45

he had, but also the

9:47

lives that he had. envisioned

9:49

for himself, but life was

9:51

not going to play out

9:53

exactly how he had envisioned

9:55

it. And to be fair,

9:57

for my father and for

10:00

other people in the book

10:02

who I'm writing about who

10:04

experienced life in prison, it

10:06

was a place repression and

10:08

suffering and often abuse at

10:10

the hands of prison guards.

10:12

And yet, for some people,

10:15

it became a site of

10:17

resistance too. So one of

10:19

the people I write about

10:21

is this black nationalist artists

10:23

named Glanton Dowdell. He was

10:25

born in Detroit right before

10:27

the Great Depression started. And

10:29

when he was a young

10:32

man, he went to prison

10:34

on a murder charge. And

10:36

he was there for... about

10:38

10 years, and he was

10:40

also a brilliant visual artist,

10:42

and it was during his

10:44

time in prison where he

10:46

began to really refine his

10:49

skills as an artist. He

10:51

also led movements among the

10:53

prisoners to resist abuse by

10:55

the guards. But one of

10:57

Glanton's jobs in prison was

10:59

to teach other inmates how

11:01

to paint, how to create

11:04

art. And one of the

11:06

lessons that he taught the

11:08

people he was around, they

11:10

would be outside walking the

11:12

yard. And Glanton once picked

11:14

up a stone and said

11:16

to some of the inmates,

11:18

you don't need a canvas,

11:21

really, to create a work

11:23

of art. You can paint

11:25

something on. this stone that's

11:27

right in front of you.

11:29

And that I think is

11:31

kind of a lesson that

11:33

is so representative of what

11:36

it means to take this

11:38

space of duress and find

11:40

some small way to make

11:42

it more livable, but also

11:44

to find ways to make

11:46

your life better. Imagine what

11:48

life could be otherwise. What

11:50

distinguishes a black utopia from

11:53

a general utopia in your

11:55

mind? When you think within

11:57

the context of American history,

11:59

so many of the white

12:01

utopian narratives that we grow

12:03

up with are about westward

12:05

expansion and the development of

12:07

the front. these visions are

12:10

so often predicated on the

12:12

dispossession of indigenous Americans and

12:14

also the disenfranchisement of black

12:16

people within the US. And

12:18

so I wanted to draw

12:20

attention to the ways that

12:22

black Americans in particular, despite

12:25

these kind of historical realities,

12:27

have attempted to create a

12:29

better life. And so. really

12:32

like what it often comes

12:34

down to is what are

12:37

the counterstructures and counter institutions

12:39

that black people have created

12:41

throughout time whether it's political

12:44

parties or creating credit unions

12:46

and mutual aid societies whether

12:48

it's imagining in some cases

12:51

the creation like of an

12:53

all-black state as in the

12:56

case of you know a

12:58

group like the Republic of

13:00

New Africa in the 1960s

13:03

in 1970s, this organization that

13:05

was such a part of

13:07

the counterculture of that time,

13:10

and they had envisioned taking

13:12

five contiguous states in the

13:15

U.S. South and essentially creating

13:17

an independent country within the

13:19

borders of the United States.

13:22

And it was meant to

13:24

be a refuge from the

13:26

punishing American legal apparatus that

13:29

had been so awful for

13:31

so many black Americans. It

13:33

was also meant to be

13:36

a space where black people

13:38

who were against the Vietnam

13:41

War could go for refuge.

13:43

So there are creative ways

13:45

to attempt to escape oppressive

13:48

structures. And that I think

13:50

is the thing that really

13:52

sets black utopianism apart. Yeah.

13:55

You mentioned already your family's

13:57

homestead a promised land. Where

14:00

was the historical context behind

14:03

the place? Yeah, so Promise

14:05

Land was this town that

14:07

was established in the years

14:09

after the Civil War. You

14:11

know, black families largely started

14:14

to move there beginning in

14:16

the 1870s. A lot of

14:18

the founding families of Promise

14:20

Land had worked on one

14:22

of the iron plantations that

14:24

were in Dixon County, Tennessee,

14:27

where Promise Land, is located

14:29

about in our west of

14:31

Nashville. When the Civil War

14:33

happened, so many of the

14:35

kind of factories in the

14:38

region had been destroyed as

14:40

a result of the war.

14:42

And so you had a

14:44

set of families in the

14:46

region who still needed a

14:49

home. And so black. family

14:51

started to come together to

14:53

pool their resources to then

14:55

buy land that eventually became

14:57

Promise Land. And Promise Land

15:00

as a town really existed

15:02

for about 100 years or

15:04

so. I mean, you know,

15:06

its height in terms of

15:08

population was probably in the

15:10

19 tens and 20s. And

15:13

over the course of the

15:15

20th century, you know black

15:17

families there started to move

15:19

away many move north for

15:21

better like job opportunities or

15:24

because they had relatives there

15:26

and in the 1970s like

15:28

there were still some families

15:30

there but it really was

15:32

kind of becoming a ghost

15:35

town of the swords but

15:37

even then like even when

15:39

people moved away from this

15:41

town It was still the

15:43

site of family gatherings, like

15:45

it was still the site

15:48

of, you know, these annual

15:50

festivals that were meant to

15:52

appreciate what a town like

15:54

this meant for so many

15:56

black people. was a refuge

15:59

from white terrorist violence during

16:01

the era of Jim Crow.

16:03

And unlike so many other

16:05

spaces like this, Promising was

16:07

largely untouched by racial violence.

16:10

It kind of was one

16:12

of those lucky spaces that

16:14

seemed to have been passed

16:16

over in a sense. And

16:18

it was also the place

16:21

where many African-Americans owned. their

16:23

own land. They built homes

16:25

and shops and churches and

16:27

a one-room schoolhouse. And even

16:29

now, the only buildings that

16:31

remain are the one-room schoolhouse

16:34

and a Methodist church. But

16:36

now, you know, these are

16:38

used as community centers and

16:40

spaces to bring people together

16:42

in a very new way.

16:45

And I think even the

16:47

reuse of these spaces is...

16:49

the kind of a sign

16:51

of the ways that these

16:53

spaces can persist, like even

16:56

if the historical conditions that

16:58

birth them have completely changed.

17:00

There's a moment in the

17:02

book, in that town, there's

17:04

a talk about, this is

17:07

like this utopia, like the

17:09

violence was passed over, but

17:11

was it more so like

17:13

our grandparents, great-grandparents, just like

17:15

this just glossed over it.

17:17

Yeah, I mean, it's a

17:20

bit of both of that,

17:22

I think, right? Like, I

17:24

think a lot of the

17:26

people who grew up in

17:28

Promise Land, so I'm thinking

17:31

people of my grandfather's generation,

17:33

many of them did not

17:35

witness the kind of racial

17:37

violence that so many other

17:39

black. families at that

17:42

time were experiencing. But also

17:44

I do think that even

17:46

like their parents were very

17:48

intentional about kind of concealing

17:51

or trying to protect their

17:53

children from some of the

17:55

worst like that was out

17:57

So for example,

17:59

my grandfather's

18:02

cousin, a woman named

18:04

woman she she in her late

18:06

70s now and she is sort of

18:08

the sort of the great historian

18:10

of this town, has been

18:12

a real big advocate for Promised

18:14

Land. And she told me

18:17

the story about her dad. dad,

18:19

When she and her siblings were

18:21

growing up, her dad would

18:23

not allow them for a time

18:25

to walk into the nearby

18:27

town of Charlotte of get what

18:29

they needed. So, you know, groceries

18:31

and clothes, you know, cetera. and That

18:34

was his job. That would take

18:36

their feet feet place them them on

18:38

on pieces of cardboard, and

18:40

he would trace the of their

18:42

feet, feet. and then he would

18:44

take that piece of cardboard of

18:47

cardboard and go into town, go

18:49

into the go into the stores bring

18:51

and bring them back shoes. And sometimes

18:53

Kay would sometimes dad, ask her was it

18:55

like? what was it like? Like,

18:57

what did you experience on

18:59

the way there there and on

19:01

the way back? back? And Kay's

19:03

dad essentially told them them, like, Don't

19:05

worry about it, like mind your business,

19:08

like mind your right and the

19:10

that he very well may

19:12

have experienced some kind

19:14

of racist aggression there, but

19:16

he wanted his kids

19:18

to feel safe. to feel safe so

19:21

it's a It's a little bit

19:23

of you know storytelling in order to

19:25

make your life life more more

19:28

bearable. You always

19:30

sense that on the

19:32

edge of promised land were

19:34

these these more of of

19:36

and complicated stories about

19:39

what life actually was, life

19:41

but I think it

19:43

was I think it least

19:45

for my grandfather my grandfather

19:47

siblings his siblings and other relatives

19:50

to feel, even if even

19:52

if life was not going to

19:54

be a paradise for them, them, that

19:56

they had these moments in their life

19:58

where they didn't have to worry. worry.

20:00

about what was going to

20:03

come down the line.

20:05

Coming up, we're talking

20:07

more about the pursuit

20:10

of a black utopia.

20:12

Stay with us. This

20:18

message comes from NPR sponsor,

20:20

REI co-op. REI has gear,

20:22

clothing, classes, and advice for

20:25

camping and glamping, biking and

20:27

hiking, axing and snaxing, backpacking.

20:29

and another outdoor thing that

20:31

rhymes with backpacking. Visit your

20:33

local REI co-op or rei.com

20:35

for the million and one

20:37

ways you can opt outside.

20:39

This message comes from Sun

20:41

and Ski Sports. Picture the

20:43

scene. Fresh powder, sparkling slopes,

20:45

and effortless gliding on perfectly

20:47

fitted skis. Sun and Ski

20:49

Sports is making magical mountain

20:51

moments possible this holiday season.

20:53

Discover the best gifts of

20:55

the season with up to

20:58

50% off premium outdoor brands.

21:00

Purchases of skis or snowboards

21:02

before December 30th include free

21:04

set-up and binding mount. Daily

21:06

Advent calendar giveaways on social

21:08

media add to the holiday

21:10

excitement. Shop in store or

21:12

at SunNin ski.com. This message

21:14

comes from Midi Health. If

21:16

you're a woman over 40

21:18

dealing with hot flashes, insomnia,

21:20

weight gain, or brain fog,

21:22

you don't have to accept

21:24

it as just another part

21:26

of aging. The clinicians at

21:28

Midi Health understand what you're

21:31

experiencing and know how to

21:33

help. Midi Health provides specialized

21:35

care for paramenopause and menopause

21:37

covered by insurance. Book your

21:39

visit today at Join midi.com.

21:48

Parker, just Parker. Code switch.

21:50

We're back with Aaron Robertson,

21:52

talking about what makes a

21:55

black utopia. One of the

21:57

examples that stood out most

22:00

to me in his book

22:02

a church called The Shrine

22:05

of the Black Madonna, which

22:07

was created by a man

22:09

named Albert Clegg Jr. So

22:12

I asked Aaron, what made

22:14

this church so special? So

22:17

uniquely utopian. The Shrine of

22:19

the Black Madonna was best

22:21

known in the late 1960s

22:24

and early 70s for being

22:26

a black nationalist church that

22:29

was also at the forefront

22:31

of what is sometimes called

22:34

black liberation theology. And this

22:36

is the idea that essentially

22:38

that Christ is a Christ

22:41

of the oppressed and that

22:43

Christianity is really a narrative

22:46

about protecting those who have

22:48

been disinherited and dispossessed. Kleg

22:51

was known as a sort

22:53

of the great practitioner of

22:55

black theology. That was the

22:58

mantra of his church and

23:00

of the movement that he

23:03

started there, which he called

23:05

black Christian nationalism, was that

23:08

nothing is more sacred than

23:10

the liberation of black people.

23:12

And that phrase shaped not

23:15

only Kleg's theology, his religious

23:17

beliefs. but also his belief

23:20

in the importance of political

23:22

involvement of economic self-determination and

23:24

of spiritual change. You said,

23:27

in describing his belief that

23:29

like African communalism was an

23:32

appropriate response to white egocentrism.

23:34

Yeah. And I think I

23:37

started to like that felt

23:39

very apropos even in maybe

23:41

2024. Yeah, it's right. I

23:44

mean, Albert Clay called himself

23:46

either a black realist or

23:49

a pragmatic realist. And one

23:51

of the things that he

23:54

stood against was sense of

23:56

kind of selfish individualism. He

23:58

grew up in this kind

24:01

of affluent black family in

24:03

Detroit, was the first black

24:06

doctor to be hired by

24:08

the city of Detroit. And

24:11

so really the Clagues were

24:13

known as socialites. They were

24:15

covered widely in the black

24:18

press. And so Clague had

24:20

a privilege upbringing. And he

24:23

was also, at one point,

24:25

as a young man, he

24:27

worked as a social worker

24:30

on the east side of

24:32

Detroit, where a lot of

24:35

poor black people and immigrants

24:37

from different parts of Europe

24:40

were often crowded in really

24:42

horrible living conditions. He saw

24:44

that and he saw the

24:47

kind of the circumstances of

24:49

his own life and was

24:52

really kind of appalled by

24:56

by those contradictions and

24:58

opposition to greed and

25:00

accumulation like for its

25:02

own sake became an

25:05

important part of his

25:07

work. Instead of focusing

25:09

on the fate of

25:11

individual people and acquiring

25:14

for your own sake.

25:16

He was interested in,

25:18

okay, how can we

25:20

actually create communities? How

25:23

can we bring people

25:25

together to focus on

25:27

communalism as opposed to,

25:29

you know, individualism? I,

25:32

okay, a question that

25:34

I kept asking myself

25:36

while reading the book

25:40

And it felt it felt

25:42

dangerous to think because it's

25:45

such a slippery slope question.

25:47

Yeah. Is segregation necessary to

25:50

create a utophie? That's a

25:52

great question. Is it? It

25:54

is. And it stressed me

25:57

out. I mean, it is

25:59

a. I think,

26:01

like what is the import

26:04

or what is the use

26:06

of like a black utopian

26:08

space? I guess the question

26:11

that people have nowadays is

26:13

what does a sustainable social

26:15

movement look like? Is it

26:18

something that is multicultural and

26:20

inclusive? I think the answer

26:23

is yes. And I also

26:25

think it is important to

26:27

pay attention to the very

26:30

particular struggles that certain groups

26:32

have experienced. But what I

26:34

wanted to write about were

26:37

movements that were focused on

26:39

black people, not because the

26:42

point of these movements was

26:44

to exclude other people. But

26:46

it was really about reinforcing.

26:49

the dignity of those who

26:51

were within these spaces. I

26:53

started to write the book

26:56

in 2020, and this was

26:58

before the January 6th insurrection,

27:01

where the term white Christian

27:03

nationalism really became popularized, I

27:05

think. And I knew, oh

27:08

man, like I'm writing this

27:10

book about a group called

27:12

the Black Christian Nationalists, and

27:15

you know, I'm going to

27:17

have to explain that it's

27:20

not just like white Christian

27:22

nationalism, like with a black

27:24

face, but I do think

27:27

it's important to say that

27:29

white Christian nationalism and black

27:31

Christian nationalism both used the

27:34

kind of terminology and symbolism

27:36

of Christianity to mobilize different

27:39

groups of people. But white

27:41

Christian nationalists, their mission, their

27:43

purpose is to impose a

27:46

very strict sense of what

27:48

it means to be an

27:50

American on everybody else, right?

27:53

If you are not a

27:55

white Christian, heteronormative, etc. You

27:58

pose a I think, to

28:00

the sort of ideological coherence

28:02

of white Christian nationalism. Black

28:05

Christian nationalism was not interested

28:07

in imposing a sense of

28:09

what life should be on

28:12

other people. It was really

28:14

about carving out spaces for

28:16

black people to experience self-empowerment

28:19

and collective liberation. they had

28:21

a vision of a kind

28:24

of beloved community that was

28:26

very different from the more

28:28

hate filled, like I think,

28:31

orientation of tried and true

28:33

white Christian nationalists. Yeah, one's

28:35

about dignity and the others

28:38

about encroachment. Yeah, encroachment and

28:40

disenfranchisement and ideological rigidity. Why

28:43

are so many of the

28:45

black utopias that you've written

28:47

about not better known? I

28:50

think that... so many of

28:52

these black movements begin in

28:54

the shadows a bit because

28:57

there is something about like

28:59

I think the privacy of

29:02

creating these spaces that is

29:04

important. It's kind of like

29:06

a place like Promise Land

29:09

for example. It was this

29:11

unincorporated town and there are

29:13

so many spaces like it

29:16

that have not been formally

29:18

mapped out. Most of these

29:21

places are not well known

29:23

or their histories are not

29:25

well documented. We might see

29:28

that as a tragedy in

29:30

part, but I actually think

29:32

that there's a usefulness to

29:35

being a bit hidden to

29:37

working underground, especially when you

29:40

aren't certain whether your work

29:42

and whether what you stand

29:44

for will actually be embraced

29:47

by other people. Yeah, I

29:49

wanted to talk to you

29:51

after the election instead of

29:54

before. I also, I don't

29:56

know, I want to know

29:59

what the results are going

30:01

to be. But I wondered

30:03

if the election shifted your

30:06

perspective of your book or

30:08

what that Black Utopia idea

30:10

could look like now. Yeah,

30:13

you know, the essay that

30:15

the book grew out of,

30:18

I had the idea for

30:20

that in 2019. So in

30:22

2020, when the pandemic happens

30:25

and when the spate of

30:27

police violence against black people

30:29

is the focus of national

30:32

attention, I'm already attuned at

30:34

that moment to what black

30:37

utopian initiatives and projects look

30:39

like. And so when all

30:41

of the chaos is happening,

30:44

the things that I'm really

30:46

looking for in the news

30:48

are stories about For example,

30:51

the proliferation of mutual aid

30:53

groups that start to pop

30:55

up in communities of color

30:58

throughout the country. I'm paying

31:00

attention to the importance of

31:03

food security networks in cities

31:05

across the country, which are

31:07

so necessary at times of

31:10

economic and political turmoil. when

31:12

it's hard to really envision

31:14

what the future looks like,

31:17

that tends to be when

31:19

these kinds of utopian movements

31:22

really pick up. And so,

31:24

you know, now, Trump is

31:26

reelected. And although for me

31:29

personally, it's tiring and sad

31:31

and scary, I just know

31:33

that there are so many

31:36

groups out there whose work

31:38

is going to continue and

31:41

is going to pick up

31:43

even. I think of the

31:45

importance of what was called

31:48

the solidarity economy, right, which

31:50

is essentially in acknowledgement that

31:52

the world that so many

31:55

people are striving the kind

31:57

of world that I personally

32:00

want to see is one

32:02

that is about sustainability, that

32:04

is about kind of slowing

32:07

down and reorienting what we

32:09

care about, right? I guess

32:11

I try to find some

32:14

encouragement in what tends to

32:16

happen when things go really

32:19

bad. Oh, Aaron. Yeah. It's

32:21

just, it's just me out.

32:23

I mean, yeah, it's also

32:26

important in writing about utopian

32:28

traditions and histories to be

32:30

real about it, right? The

32:33

need for creative responses, I

32:35

think, to systemic oppression is

32:38

exhausting. And the fact that

32:40

we keep experiencing these moments

32:42

of shock at what we

32:45

are, like as a nation,

32:47

Right, I mean it feels

32:49

in some ways that we

32:52

are regressing and it's like

32:54

the alternative is what you

32:57

sort of stop and stare

32:59

at the wall and you

33:01

know and don't don't do

33:04

anything I just I I

33:06

think in part I wanted

33:08

to write the book because

33:11

I was tired too by

33:13

a lot of what I

33:15

was seeing in 2016 on.

33:18

I eventually got to a

33:20

point where I was thinking

33:23

the people who have the

33:25

maybe the most right to

33:27

to give up are the

33:30

people who have done everything

33:32

within their power to make

33:34

the world different and better.

33:37

And so I wanted to,

33:39

like when I learned about

33:42

the Shrine of the Black

33:44

Madonna, a lot of the

33:46

black Christian nationalists who I

33:49

spoke to for the book,

33:51

they were my age in

33:53

the 1960s and 70s when

33:56

the Vietnam War. was raging.

33:58

It was it

34:01

was not clear

34:03

like black liberation liberation

34:05

movements would endure of of

34:07

the effects of counter -surveillance

34:09

operations, right, the suppression of

34:11

these kinds of groups.

34:14

There were a lot of

34:16

forces that were marshaled

34:18

against these young people too.

34:20

too. But I but I wanted to talk to

34:22

people who. who lived through that

34:24

period and then also saw what

34:26

was going on like with our

34:28

country now. Many of them

34:30

I think I think, to. on to a a

34:33

sense of hope. They They were kind of

34:35

inspired by what was happening. in

34:38

2020. And so it

34:40

felt important for me to It

34:42

felt important for me to connect with people

34:44

who had lived through terrible. periods

34:46

of their own, their own. and I think

34:48

took some encouragement from that. from

34:51

that. All right. I don't All

34:53

right, be a I don't mean

34:55

to be a immediately, I apologize. No, no, it's,

34:57

it's, I think it's, I it's I

34:59

think it's normal and natural

35:01

I mean I'll speak from a

35:04

very personal place. So Cousin Kaye, who is

35:06

my my grandfather's

35:08

cousin, know, in Land, she's getting

35:10

older, you know, and you

35:12

wants to ensure that the

35:14

memory of a place like

35:16

Promised Land is preserved. is preserved. by

35:18

younger people, so she has

35:20

looked has looked to, you to her

35:22

daughter. daughter, to think

35:24

of ways that we might use

35:27

a space like this for

35:29

good. for good. And I find myself now

35:31

at a point a point where

35:33

really concerned about the

35:36

attacks on freedom of

35:38

expression. There are real are

35:40

real dangers that the the next

35:42

Trump administration will

35:44

pose to the attempt to

35:47

educate people about history as it

35:49

is, right? as it is, right? all

35:51

extremely scary and

35:53

threatening. And I

35:55

wonder, can a place like

35:57

like be used as as like?

36:00

artist retreat or some kind

36:02

of co-op where people can

36:04

come together to tell the

36:06

very kinds of stories that

36:08

the Trump administration is going

36:10

to be trying to suppress,

36:12

especially throughout the American South.

36:14

And so I guess the

36:16

answer to that question is,

36:19

It's sort of about thinking,

36:21

like, what do we have

36:23

in front of us that

36:25

we can recycle in a

36:27

way to use for good?

36:29

It's not that we necessarily

36:31

need to create entirely new

36:33

ways of thinking or new

36:35

political structures. Like maybe we

36:37

do, who knows? But it

36:39

may be a little more

36:41

manageable to think about, okay,

36:44

what is it right in

36:46

front of me that I

36:48

can do? What are the

36:50

things that my own interest?

36:52

tap into that can motivate

36:54

me to try to resist

36:56

all of the horrible things

36:58

that might be coming our

37:00

way. So it's not blind

37:02

hope, but it's kind of

37:04

about holding the frustration and

37:06

the fear and disappointment alongside

37:09

like our creative impulses. And

37:11

I don't know exactly what

37:13

that will look like for

37:15

me, but we'll see. All

37:23

right, Aaron Robertson's The Black

37:25

Utopians, searching for Paradise and

37:27

the Promise Land in America.

37:32

And that's our show. Just a

37:34

reminder, we'd love to hear what

37:36

you think of the show. You

37:39

can help us out by taking

37:41

a short survey at npr.org/code switch

37:43

survey. And you can follow us

37:45

on Instagram at npr code switch

37:48

survey. And you can follow us

37:50

on Instagram at npr code switch.

37:52

Code switch at npr.org. And you

37:54

should subscribe to the podcast on

37:57

the npr app, wink, wink, or

37:59

wherever you get your podcast. by

38:01

going to npr.org/code switch newsletter. Signing

38:04

up for Code Switch Plus is

38:06

a great way to support our

38:08

show and public media. And you'll

38:10

get to listen to every episode

38:13

sponsor free. So please go find

38:15

out more at plus dot npr.org/code

38:17

switch. This episode you're listening to

38:19

was produced by Christina Kala. It

38:22

was edited by Lay Dinella and

38:24

our engineer was Jimmy Keely. And

38:27

a big shout-out to

38:29

the rest of the

38:31

code switch massive, Courtney

38:34

Stein, Xavier Lopez, Jess

38:36

Kung, Dahlia Mortata, Jasmine

38:38

Romero, and Varlen Williams.

38:40

I'm B.A. Parker. And

38:42

I'm Jean Dembe. B.Z.O.

38:44

Hydrate. You're listening to

38:46

code switch. Hey,

38:50

it's B.A. Parker. Before we wrap

38:52

up, the end of another year

38:54

is coming up and our team

38:56

is looking back at all the

38:58

deep reporting and compelling stories and

39:01

conversations about race that we've been

39:03

able to bring you in 2024

39:05

because of your support. We

39:07

unpacked tropes and conspiracy theories. We

39:10

brought you the story of America's

39:12

oldest dragging. And we asked complicated

39:14

questions like whether bike lanes cause

39:16

gentrification and how to be a

39:18

better tourist. And it's all because

39:21

listeners like you step up to

39:23

support our work, either by giving

39:25

to your local station or by

39:27

joining NPR Plus. NPR Plus has

39:30

grown a lot this year, and

39:32

we want to say an extra

39:34

special thank you to those supporters

39:36

right now. You know who you

39:39

are, and we see you. If

39:41

you don't know what I'm talking

39:43

about, NPR Plus is a sweet

39:45

way to support the independent public

39:47

media you rely on from NPR.

39:50

When you sign up for a

39:52

simple recurring donation, you support our

39:54

mission of creating a more informed

39:56

public and get special perks.

39:59

more than than 25

40:01

NPR podcasts, like like

40:03

sponsor -free listening, bonus

40:05

episodes, and even exclusive and

40:07

discounted items from the NPR

40:09

shop and the NPR and the

40:12

When you donate today, you you

40:14

join a community of supporters

40:16

that's deeply curious about the

40:18

world deeply eager to challenge

40:21

assumptions. eager to Join us on

40:23

the plus side today at the

40:25

plus side .org. Thanks! This

40:30

message comes from Oracle

40:32

Cloud Infrastructure. Growing businesses can

40:34

cut their cloud bill

40:36

in half when moving to

40:38

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. For

40:40

new U .S. customers with

40:42

minimum financial commitment, offer ends

40:44

December 31, 2024, December.com. This

40:48

message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify, the

40:50

global commerce platform that helps you sell

40:53

and show up exactly the way you

40:55

want to. Customize your online store to

40:57

your style. Sign up for a $1 per

41:00

month trial period at

41:02

shopify.com/npr. This

41:04

message comes from GiveWell. Givewell provides

41:07

rigorous, transparent research about the

41:09

best giving opportunities so that donors

41:11

can make informed decisions about

41:13

high -impact giving. To learn more, To

41:15

go to go .org and pick pick

41:17

podcast enter NPR at checkout.