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listening to Code Switch. I'm B.A.

0:19

Parker. To be a

0:21

Palestinian-American writer right now, can

0:23

lead to a lot of

0:26

expectation to focus on identity

0:28

and devastation and devastation. like

0:30

in all caps, and not get

0:32

into the nuance and

0:34

humanity of any one

0:36

person's experience. You know, crushes,

0:38

hopes for yourself and

0:40

your kids' futures, Betty

0:42

Shamia has dealt with

0:44

that kind of expectation

0:46

as a Palestinian-American playwright.

0:48

I think my joy

0:50

in life is making

0:52

people laugh and telling

0:54

stories, and I always felt

0:56

like... I started out in theater

0:59

because I didn't want to be

1:01

alone writing books, and I also

1:03

thought it would be a good

1:05

way to get a boyfriend. And

1:07

then I realized there's not a

1:09

lot of straight men working in

1:11

theater. It's a small percentage. But

1:13

after 20 years of writing plays

1:15

and even finding love, Betty decided

1:17

it was time to take the

1:19

lonely road and sit down to

1:21

write an intergenerational novel. Too Soon.

1:23

And in it, her main character,

1:25

Arabella, is looking for love

1:27

in some of the

1:29

same places as Betty

1:32

did. Too Soon is

1:34

the tale of three

1:36

unapologetically bold, salacious, and

1:38

ambitious Palestinian-American women who

1:40

are determined to ring

1:42

an acceptable amount of joy

1:44

out of a world that is not

1:47

designed for them to do so. I

1:50

started with Arabella, who's a hip

1:53

young theater director, looking for a

1:55

dude to be her man, and

1:57

then the grandma showed up. And

1:59

she was... I was like, I'm

2:02

going to have my say too,

2:04

and I get to have some

2:06

salacious experience. I get to be

2:08

fully human in the way that

2:10

Arabella is. So I feel like

2:13

this book is a melding of,

2:15

as much as it's inspired by

2:17

sagas like God of small things,

2:19

it's also like the Devil Wares

2:21

Prada in that it's a deep

2:24

dive into a very particular industry

2:26

in Manhattan, which is theater. And

2:28

it's got the kind of sex

2:30

in the city exploration of Manhattan

2:32

life. from the perspective of a

2:35

woman who's prone to dramatics. She

2:37

is prone to dramatics. She is.

2:39

Shamia has established herself as an

2:41

important Palestinian-American voice in the American

2:43

theater. And having that platform has

2:46

meant exploring the complexities of being

2:48

a modern woman and searching for

2:50

those complexities in women from the

2:52

past. Being a Palestinian-American is both

2:54

particularly at this time, but always.

2:57

a great position of privilege vis-a-vis

2:59

other people in my community, but

3:02

it's also a precarious position in

3:04

this society, in this world. And

3:06

so the book for me is

3:09

kind of a melding of what

3:11

it is to be incredibly privileged,

3:14

and as an American, I am

3:16

privileged, but also what it means

3:18

to also be incredibly vulnerable, and

3:21

as a Palestinian I am. also

3:23

vulnerable. So that's why the book

3:26

couldn't live in the like kind

3:28

of saga. This is a dramatic

3:30

story. It had to have the

3:33

kind of lightness of what it

3:35

is to be an artist living

3:38

and working and struggling in New

3:40

York. And so for today's show

3:42

I talk with Betty Shimia about

3:45

writing her book and how her

3:47

characters just want to be free.

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6:04

have blinders on about how

6:07

difficult it is to

6:09

represent your community in

6:11

a culture where you're

6:13

regularly demonized. And I

6:15

don't use dehumanized because I

6:17

feel like that for me

6:19

is not the right term because

6:21

I feel like if people treated puppies

6:24

the way they treated... people from my

6:26

community, there would be more outrage than

6:28

there is. You know, that it's actually

6:31

a demonization from birth till death that

6:33

you're struggling against. So I've had to

6:35

have blinders on and be like, I'm

6:38

going to be able to make it

6:40

in New York theater. I'm going to

6:42

be able to write a book and

6:45

people are going to hear it and

6:47

see it and have enough curiosity. Because

6:49

I think when you don't read widely,

6:52

it's a lack of... fundamental curiosity. The

6:54

point of reading is not to reinforce

6:56

your own experiences. You can wake up

6:58

and have that experience. And this is

7:01

what I think people who love theater

7:03

or people who love books are addicted

7:05

to. It's the idea that you want

7:08

to know more than you can by

7:10

just existing within your own skin. You're

7:12

so in love with life that you

7:15

want to know what you can only

7:17

know by stepping out of your skin.

7:19

This book... erupted out of

7:21

me. And I've never had that

7:24

experience. You know, I've been writing

7:26

for a minute, but I've never

7:28

had the experience of something wanting

7:31

to exist in the world

7:33

more than I wanted to

7:35

sit down and write it. Your

7:37

main character, Arabella, for one

7:39

of your main characters, is similar

7:42

to you in some ways.

7:44

She's also in theater, also Palestinian.

7:46

How did your work influence

7:48

the character of Arabella? I

7:50

am... I'm in all of my

7:53

characters. That's, you know, that's

7:55

something I admit. She is

7:57

very similar to me. in

8:00

terms of like being devoted to

8:02

theater, being really, really obsessed with

8:04

a theater community that's very small

8:07

and very few people care about

8:09

it, frankly, in the world and

8:11

the universe. And I think what

8:13

she struggles with is what I

8:16

think every Palestinian-American artist or person

8:18

in the world is struggling with

8:20

right now is how do you

8:23

balance the need for you to

8:25

be responsible to yourself and responsible

8:27

for your community at the same

8:30

time. And she falls short flagrantly

8:32

more often than not. And she's

8:34

kind of my nightmare of who

8:36

I could be. You know what

8:39

I mean? More, I am, if

8:41

you know me in the theater,

8:43

I put a character called Lisa

8:46

Ternlila, who's very out there and

8:48

like, let's go do projects in

8:50

the Middle East. And that... character

8:52

is much more similar to who

8:55

how I function in American theater

8:57

and she also wears ridiculous outfits

8:59

which I did in my 20s

9:02

so if you if you know

9:04

me and you live and work

9:06

in the theatrical world you'd probably

9:08

say that's more like Betty than

9:11

Arabella because also she's a director

9:13

and I'm a writer and it's

9:15

a very to be a director

9:18

it's about being a leader it's

9:20

about standing up and being like

9:22

you move and you say and

9:24

you talk and you do And

9:27

being a writer is kind of

9:29

more of a gentle role than

9:31

that. And I have incredible admiration

9:34

for the female directors that have

9:36

come up. And one of the

9:38

things, you know, you can't really

9:40

tell how sexism works when it

9:43

comes to yourself. For example, I

9:45

don't know if I was a

9:47

male playwright, how my career might

9:50

look different. But in terms of

9:52

watching, having gone to, you know,

9:54

some of the best schools, working

9:56

with some of the best directors,

9:59

The women are as talented as

10:01

the men and they're not in

10:03

the same stratosphere in terms of...

10:06

access and visibility. They're not allowed

10:08

to be up at bat as

10:10

directors the way that men are.

10:13

Men can fail and fail and

10:15

fail and women cannot as directors.

10:17

And so even though Arabella shares

10:19

a lot with me, she's more

10:22

modeled in the kind of bad-ass

10:24

female directors who took my work

10:26

and heralded me and shaped me

10:29

as an artist and also made

10:31

the actors stand where they have

10:33

to stand in the light. Bow

10:35

when they had to bow and

10:38

all the things it would like

10:40

I would rather do anything than

10:42

have to tell a group of

10:45

people what to do and make

10:47

them do it. The playwright is

10:49

God. You've got the soft power.

10:51

They have to say your words

10:54

or there's no show. And what

10:56

I say also in Too Soon

10:58

is like what's annoying about playwrights

11:01

is they expect everybody to say

11:03

the words that they want them

11:05

to say. So they're going to

11:07

wait for the apology whether or

11:10

not you feel like giving it.

11:12

And so yes, it's soft power,

11:14

but it is not. the same

11:17

sort of leadership skills that directors

11:19

require, the same sort of interpersonal

11:21

skills that might be the better

11:23

way to say it. Yeah, okay.

11:26

So when you first started writing

11:28

this book, it was a decade

11:30

ago, right? So did you imagine

11:33

then that when you finished the

11:35

book that folks would be more

11:37

open to hearing a Palestinian-American perspective?

11:39

After 9-11, 11, I had just

11:42

on a show, I just graduated

11:44

from drama school, and I did

11:46

a show called Chocolate and Heat

11:49

Growing Up Arab in America. And

11:51

all the characters were Arabs, but

11:53

they didn't talk about being Arabs.

11:56

So it was like kind of

11:58

a tongue-in-cheek downtown kind of thing

12:00

that you do, where you invite

12:02

people into a show about people

12:05

and ask them to make their

12:07

own conclusions. So I became a

12:09

very visible Arab. literally August of

12:12

2001. And so I was invited

12:14

to speak on many, many panels

12:16

about like, how has my life

12:18

changed as a Palestinian American now

12:21

that this catastrophic loss of life

12:23

happened within like blocks of me

12:25

and my community? And you know,

12:28

and I said, you know what,

12:30

there was such resistance to. our

12:32

perspective before 9-11 that there was

12:34

really nowhere for it to go

12:37

after 9-11. So I'd be on

12:39

panels and they'd be like, tell

12:41

us how your life has changed.

12:44

I'm like, it hasn't changed that

12:46

much. And I guess I feel

12:48

like, yes, we are in the

12:50

news. And I mean, what is

12:53

happening to the Palestinian community can

12:55

only, for me, the way I

12:57

can describe it, is like it's

13:00

watching the trail of tears being

13:02

live streamed. and having learned of

13:04

the trail of tears and having

13:06

language for what that is, or

13:09

the middle passage, like watching something

13:11

that you heard about in history

13:13

happen, happening now, but it's also

13:16

on your live stream feet. So

13:18

it's this moment of like, this

13:20

has always been happening. Everybody's watching

13:22

it at this particular moment. It's

13:25

more extreme than I can fathom,

13:27

you know, for me. I can't

13:29

fathom the walls coming down around

13:32

me. I can't fathom being moved

13:34

from place to place with just

13:36

the clothes on your back. I

13:39

can fathom systematic starvation. I can

13:41

fathom not having milk for my

13:43

kid. So that's where I am

13:45

in terms of this particular moment,

13:48

if that makes sense. in the

13:50

book, I believe it was in

13:52

Nia, when she gets, when she's

13:55

in Detroit, Nia immediately draws the

13:57

parallel between how black people are

13:59

treated in Detroit. with how Palestinian

14:01

treated back home. Like the cycle

14:04

of empathy that we can all

14:06

kind of have the comparisons and

14:08

we can see the humanity and

14:11

like what that kind of

14:13

cruelty looks like within different

14:15

marginalized groups is really interesting

14:18

to me. Well, for me,

14:20

the black community has been,

14:22

can't even describe how supportive

14:24

and kind and important. But

14:27

even more than their embrace

14:29

of my work, which is

14:31

huge, it's the model of

14:34

how you face unrelenting derision

14:36

and create beauty and insist

14:39

upon your humanity and support

14:41

your community. I'm able to

14:43

say and see, you know,

14:46

in the face of violence,

14:48

one can be an artist and

14:50

one can insist upon being

14:53

an artist being an

14:55

artist, being an And I

14:57

think in stories. I don't

14:59

think in sound bites. I

15:01

don't express myself in terms

15:03

of like things that you can

15:05

watch and say, now I feel

15:08

inspired and alive. I tell stories.

15:10

And so I kind of have

15:12

to stay in my own lane

15:14

in that way, which is challenging

15:16

in this moment. But it's also

15:18

empowering. I have to only be

15:20

and do what I can do.

15:22

to the best of my ability,

15:24

you know, as a storyteller. And

15:27

so the reality of I know that

15:29

there's people who cannot hear my voice

15:31

right now is something I've had to

15:33

kind of subjugate because to me I'm

15:36

trying to reach everyone. And I

15:38

also have this belief and it's

15:40

harder and harder to hold on to

15:42

it that in 50 years the Middle

15:44

East is going to look like the

15:47

EU, that everyone's going to be able

15:49

to live where they want to live.

15:51

And when people say, that's crazy, I

15:54

said, look at the history of Europe.

15:56

They had two world wars and, you

15:58

know, genocide and... they figured

16:00

it out. So it's kind of

16:02

myopic to think that the Middle

16:05

East can't change. But as I

16:07

get older, that 50-year mark seems

16:09

to be one that I might

16:12

not reach in my lifetime. So

16:14

that's, I think, the way that

16:16

I've kind of had to move

16:19

through American society as a Palestinian,

16:21

where there's not much representation of

16:23

our voice seen or allowed. Yeah.

16:26

Yeah, and also, well, there's the

16:28

sequence in your book that, I

16:30

guess I just never thought about,

16:33

like, the mundanity of oppression. Mm-hmm.

16:35

I was learning how to navigate

16:37

entering Israel as a Palestinian through

16:39

Arabella's experience. Yes. And I, it

16:42

frustrated me, but also kind of

16:44

loved it because it was, you

16:46

know, a world outside of my

16:49

own and I was learning about,

16:51

like, No one really talks each

16:53

other on the plane because you

16:56

don't know who is going to

16:58

be, you know, divided once you

17:00

get off that plane. But can

17:03

you describe for me, for someone

17:05

who hasn't lived it, what that's

17:07

like? Well, I think the hardest

17:10

thing about being a Palestinian who

17:12

tries to return or who lives

17:14

there who has not left, is

17:16

that you do not know. what

17:19

is going to happen. Like sometimes

17:21

they let you through, sometimes they

17:23

retain you for eight hours, sometimes

17:26

they don't let you through. And

17:28

I think that that sense of

17:30

powerlessness, but also, like, it's one

17:33

thing if you know the bridge

17:35

is going to be stopped for

17:37

two hours, you know what I

17:40

mean? And you can, it's another

17:42

thing. if there's no reason why

17:44

you're being detained for eight hours

17:47

or why you're being let through

17:49

or why you're not being let

17:51

in through at all. So the

17:53

randomness of the Palestinian experience is

17:56

I think what's oftentimes like you

17:58

don't what to brace yourself for.

18:00

I could get on a flight

18:03

and I don't know what is

18:05

going to happen at the other

18:07

end. Sometimes they just are like,

18:10

come all through. Sometimes they're, and

18:12

I think the more visible I

18:14

am as an artist, many of

18:17

my artist friends have had a

18:19

harder time, the more visibility you

18:21

have. And you're still the same

18:24

person. You're still, you know, American

18:26

Betty. So you're not any more

18:28

of a threat or a danger.

18:30

I don't think, you know, in

18:33

anyone's eyes, except that you don't

18:35

know what you're going to get

18:37

on the other end. So I'm

18:40

concerned about the next time I

18:42

try to go in. My family

18:44

is from the West Bank and

18:47

my grandfather's house is there, and

18:49

that's where I tend to stay

18:51

when I visit or work. And

18:54

it's just worth noting that, you

18:56

know, I'm a child of Oslo,

18:58

and... the peace process has made

19:01

life worse there's for the Palestinians

19:03

who have you know who have

19:05

not elected Hamas who live in

19:07

the West Bank and and so

19:10

so that's just worth noting that

19:12

like Gaza's something but West Bank

19:14

is also pretty much on fire

19:17

at this point and very unsafe

19:19

and very unstable in terms of

19:21

you can't go to school you

19:24

can't go to school you can't

19:26

go to work. You can't go

19:28

to the hairdresser without knowing how

19:31

long these things are going to

19:33

take you. And that's how my

19:35

life would have been every day

19:38

in Ramallah if my family hadn't

19:40

left. Sorry. No, that's okay. We

19:42

can get back to the book.

19:45

Please make it about the book.

19:53

We talk about the book

19:55

and romance. She's in love

19:57

with my favorite book boyfriend,

19:59

Aziz's, you know. Like, he's

20:01

so dreamy. In my mind,

20:03

he's like swashbuckling. He's going

20:05

to Gaza to like stitch

20:07

people up. I'm like, I'm into it.

20:09

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21:41

Parker. Just Parker. Code Switch.

21:43

I've been talking to Betty

21:45

Shamia, Palestinian-American playwright, and first-time author.

21:48

Her debut novel, Too Soon, tells

21:50

the story of three generations of

21:52

Palestinian women. Grandmother Zoya, who

21:54

left her home for the states, Mother

21:56

Naya, who grew up mostly between Detroit

21:58

and New York City. and Arabella who

22:01

was looking for love and purpose

22:03

as a director in New York's

22:05

theater scene. The book so clearly

22:07

describes what it means to like

22:09

be a young woman in the

22:11

city being attracted to a man

22:13

and then they say something dumb

22:15

and then you immediately get the

22:17

ick and you're like oh that's

22:19

right. I don't like him anymore

22:22

and the next day, maybe I

22:24

do like him. Then no, no,

22:26

I don't like him. But he

22:28

knows his one thing about me,

22:30

and no one else knows it.

22:32

Maybe that's nice. There's a push

22:34

and pull. And it is, and

22:36

I think, from my own experience,

22:38

you know, I have a lot

22:40

of friends who are still in

22:43

that, this guy's okay for now,

22:45

and then one of you dies.

22:47

Do you know what I mean?

22:49

It's like I do believe that

22:51

certain people are cut from the

22:53

same, I call the cloth of

22:55

your soul is the same, but

22:57

also life is incredibly hard and

22:59

that's I think for me, the

23:01

tragedy of racism. Because humanity as

23:03

a whole is not that great.

23:06

There's not that many people that

23:08

you vibe with. There's not that

23:10

many fantastic, you know, partners in

23:12

the world. So if you're limiting

23:14

who you're allowed to love. to

23:16

your race or your class or

23:18

your education level, you're going to

23:20

have a hard go of it.

23:22

You know, you've got to look

23:24

through all of humanity to find

23:27

fantastic people. And I think one

23:29

gift that my family gave me

23:31

was they found me hilarious. They

23:33

found me delightful. And I moved

23:35

through the world with a sense

23:37

that if you don't like me

23:39

because I'm Palestinian, you're missing out.

23:41

And that is a thing that

23:43

I think that BIPOC people need

23:45

to give to their children, the

23:48

sense of you're not trying to

23:50

be accepted by other people. You're

23:52

trying to invite them into the

23:54

fabulousness that is you. And if

23:56

they... can't vibe

23:58

with that. That's

24:00

an immense loss

24:02

on their part. OK,

24:05

this is this is a side note. We'll

24:07

review for a second. Sure. It's just like

24:10

a personal complaint that I have about theater.

24:12

Yes, for playwrights of color. They're

24:15

what becomes popularized

24:17

feels very didactic,

24:19

feeling like you have to

24:22

explain your existence on

24:24

stage to a predominantly white audience.

24:26

And so I'll sit through a show

24:28

and I'm like, oh, this isn't

24:30

for me. Like I don't need

24:33

you to explain But

24:35

it like I

24:38

think it harkens to the thing we're

24:40

talking about, about like four or

24:42

20 years, you had to like be

24:44

representative. And and what is funny

24:46

is I did that for 20 years.

24:48

And I also did it in

24:50

a very particular way. I I purposely

24:52

chose not to tell stories that

24:54

reinforce stereotypes about Arab men. I

24:57

never had an honor killing play,

24:59

which I felt like would have won

25:02

me major accolades in a Broadway

25:04

production. But I just felt like my

25:06

place in this world is not to

25:08

demonize Arab men, because when you've demonized

25:10

them, it's easier to kill them. And

25:12

as a mother of a son who's

25:14

10, he's a little boy and he's

25:17

always going to be a little boy

25:19

to me. And and when you see

25:21

like this many women and children have

25:23

been killed, it dehumanizes

25:25

the men. Yeah.

25:28

And in your

25:30

book, you are

25:32

able to humanize not

25:34

only Arab men, but

25:36

also Israeli men

25:38

through the character Arabella's

25:40

love interests. To

25:43

me, one of the most fun

25:45

things is that she's in

25:47

love with an Israeli American and

25:49

she's in love with a

25:51

Palestinian American and she's in love

25:53

with everybody. She's got options

25:55

and they're very different options. But

25:57

I really wanted to. show

26:00

that I really understand and can

26:02

humanize anyone. And that was really

26:05

important for me as a writer.

26:07

Yeah. So much of our discourse

26:09

is, you know, this Palestinian American

26:12

writer is talking about this issue

26:14

and this Israeli American writer is

26:17

talking about that issue. And nobody's

26:19

really saying, like, wouldn't it

26:21

be interesting if we could

26:23

talk about each other's issues?

26:25

I mean, it would be nice. Okay. So in

26:27

the book, one of the big...

26:29

sequences, you know, Arabella,

26:32

gets invited to direct

26:34

a Shakespearean production overseas

26:36

and has to go

26:39

to Romala. This is

26:41

always a part of that

26:43

yearning for the diaspora, trying

26:45

to return, even though she's

26:48

really hesitant and doesn't want

26:50

to do this really. What

26:53

did that journey mean to

26:55

you to have to write

26:57

that? It's even worse

27:00

than that. She's isolated herself and alienated

27:02

everyone in New York theater and this

27:04

is her one last gig. And so

27:06

she doesn't want to go. This is

27:09

the last trip she wants to make.

27:11

This is not something she wants to

27:13

do. She wants to be on Broadway.

27:15

She wants to be working on Shakespeare

27:17

on Broadway. This is her world. And

27:19

so the fact that she has to

27:21

do the reverse journey of her grandmother,

27:23

which is essentially go back to a

27:25

place that her family fled, she kind

27:28

of goes kicking and screaming. And I

27:30

feel like it is so challenging to

27:32

live a life of privilege and

27:34

ease, and then to go witness

27:36

what your life would be like

27:38

if your family never left. And

27:40

I think that that is part

27:42

of... The difficulty facing the fact

27:44

that she's here because her family chose

27:46

to do what so many people hope

27:48

Palestinians do which is just leave and

27:51

then she goes back and has to

27:53

face what her life Would have been

27:55

like if they didn't make that choice

27:57

and You know, she's in love with

27:59

my favorite boyfriend is he's, you know,

28:02

like... He's so dreamy. In my

28:04

mind, he's like swashbuckling. He's going

28:06

to Gaza to, like, stitch people

28:08

up. I'm like, I'm into it.

28:10

And he's actually inspired by a

28:12

very dashing. His name is Tarat

28:14

Lubani, and I hope he doesn't

28:17

mind that I'm calling him out.

28:19

I've never met him. But he

28:21

was every Arab American girl's dream.

28:23

He went to Gaza, got shot

28:25

in the legs twice, is still

28:27

walking. came back and created a,

28:29

I believe it's a company for

28:32

medical supplies. And what was amazing

28:34

is he had in his pocket

28:36

something that could have helped him

28:38

with his leg. And he's like,

28:40

no, other people need it more.

28:42

And what's hilarious is when you're

28:44

Palestinian-American, that's your book boyfriend. Like

28:47

everybody else likes Brad Pitt. You're

28:49

like watching Tarak Labani on like

28:51

Democracy Now or some major news

28:53

showing going that's the guy that

28:55

I want to date. What's also

28:57

hilarious is he is not a

28:59

perfect match for self-centered Arabella. She

29:01

ain't trying to live in Gaza.

29:04

Respectfully, I'm like, this is, I

29:06

mean, Aziz is great. He's, he's

29:08

an Aden. And so, so it's

29:10

inspired by this guy that everybody

29:12

I know was in love with.

29:14

but my character Arabella could not

29:16

relate to the fact that she

29:19

says his primary identity is being

29:21

Palestinian where mine is being director

29:23

and so you know he thinks

29:25

it's a duty to have more

29:27

Palestinian children and she's like I

29:29

got a show to direct and

29:31

I can't carry I'm 35 I

29:34

can't carry I can't carry four

29:36

babies for you and yet you

29:38

know artistic you have wants to

29:40

go off to Bali every five

29:42

minutes and he don't want no

29:44

kids so it's like it's Who

29:46

do you choose? And I don't

29:48

want to ruin the ending, but

29:51

she makes her own choices and

29:53

I believe I give her a

29:55

happy day. I give her everything

29:57

she kind of wants at the

29:59

end of this. story in the

30:01

way that she wants it. So

30:03

what does liberation mean for Arabella?

30:06

Well for me, and I think

30:08

for my character, liberation means

30:10

living life on your own

30:12

terms and being fulfilled artistically

30:14

and finding ways to continue

30:17

to work as an artist

30:19

when the doors are closed

30:21

to you and whether or

30:24

not children come into that

30:26

or a man comes into that.

30:28

Like I said, they, they... I mean,

30:30

it makes me sound horrible. But

30:32

I just feel like we hang

30:34

out with people and then we

30:36

die. So like, you know, like

30:39

I said, I have a lot of

30:41

women who are single and they're

30:43

like, is this the right one? I'm

30:45

like, he is for now and he

30:47

might not be for later. And that's

30:50

how we have to live. And then

30:52

one of us gets taken out. You

30:54

know what I mean? This is a

30:56

life choice I'm making and this is

30:59

the man that I'm living with and

31:01

this is the family I'm creating. No!

31:03

And you know, and you may live

31:05

with them for the rest of your

31:07

life and most people hope when they

31:10

encounter somebody that they adore that they

31:12

will, but I think the idea that

31:14

we don't have many different lives and

31:16

permutations of that life is something that

31:18

we don't tell ourselves or our younger

31:21

selves or our current selves. We think

31:23

that we have to make these decisions

31:25

and we do, but there for now.

31:28

Oh boy. There's a moment when Zulia

31:30

is on the phone with Naya

31:33

and she's like, oh she's free

31:35

Naya, can't we let one of

31:37

us be free? And you think

31:40

about every generation of

31:42

grandmother who has had to make

31:44

some kind of sacrifice for

31:47

like their future children and

31:49

they see their grandchild living

31:52

the life that you've always kind

31:54

of wanted for them. And you're

31:56

like, and now we want to

31:59

get married? She's out here, like,

32:01

I say this is like, you

32:03

know, a young woman living in

32:05

the city in my one bedroom

32:08

apartment. Yes. My mom is like,

32:10

you're living the dream, aren't you?

32:12

Are you going to bring a

32:14

man into it? Yes, and that

32:16

is why I wrote the story,

32:18

that connection between three generations of

32:21

women and what does it mean

32:23

to be like, no, I'm going

32:25

to say no to that. Because

32:27

that means you won't have grandchildren

32:29

to like terrorize and call up

32:31

and you know or love You

32:34

know what I mean in the

32:36

way that it's all you really

32:38

does love Arabella even though she's

32:40

flawed and not always to be

32:42

trusted I love the learning that

32:44

Zoya has throughout, because I guess,

32:47

I don't know, you forget that,

32:49

like, your grandmother's a person. And

32:51

your grandmother has, like, you know,

32:53

once, and like, is sitting there

32:55

looking at, uh... Big as these.

32:57

Big as these. And has, like,

33:00

all this desire that's just, like,

33:02

holding his hand is enough. And

33:04

I have to say the story

33:06

of the hand-holding was inspired not

33:08

by my grandma, but by another

33:10

woman who was, you know, a

33:13

little too friendly on the boat.

33:15

And I met her as an

33:17

older lady and they were like,

33:19

yeah, she was a little friendly

33:21

on that boat. And I was

33:23

like, I was like, I was

33:26

a old lady and I was

33:28

like, good for her to be

33:30

friendly on a boat, you know

33:32

what I mean, coming over. But

33:34

what was hilarious is she looked,

33:36

you know, you know, like, like

33:39

grandma. and you could have nine

33:41

kids but if you know a

33:43

sexy Aziz walks in you are

33:45

just human again you know like

33:47

and that's that's you know and

33:49

that's I think I think that's

33:52

what will surprise people about too

33:54

soon and that's what I love

33:56

about you know getting notes from

33:58

booksellers in small rural Midwestern town

34:00

saying I'm going to handsell this

34:02

book because it's about my grandmother's

34:05

experience. And that's so much fun

34:07

as a writer because I do

34:09

have to have to believe that

34:11

someday the world's going to look

34:13

like a different place and that

34:15

my books have to be human

34:18

in order to have a life

34:20

after that moment. Betty Shamilla, thank

34:22

you so much for talking to

34:24

me. Thank you, Parker. This has

34:26

been such a thrill. And

34:31

that's our show. You can

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Kala. It was edited by

35:18

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