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a special offer. What's good? You're

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listening to Code Switch from

0:41

NPR. I'm Jean Denby. And I'm

0:43

B.A. Parker. I want to take you

0:45

back to a moment in one of

0:48

Trump's State of the Union speeches from

0:50

his first term. Okay. In the

0:52

last two years, our brave ICE

0:55

officers. made 266,000 arrests. And then

0:57

Trump does that thing that presidents

0:59

do in these speeches, you know,

1:02

where they like shout out regular

1:04

Americans in the audience to make

1:06

a point about how their policies

1:09

are good, actually. We are joined

1:11

tonight by one of those

1:13

law enforcement heroes. Ice Special

1:15

Agent Elvin Hernandez. Trump goes

1:17

on to make the point

1:19

that Elvin and his family

1:22

legally. immigrated to the U.S.

1:24

from the Dominican Republic, and

1:26

then he talks about the

1:28

importance of what he calls

1:30

legal immigrants in the

1:32

United States. Legal immigrants

1:34

enrich our nation and

1:36

strengthen our society in countless

1:39

ways. Fast forward to earlier this

1:41

month, Parker, and near the

1:43

Columbia University campus, and this

1:45

is according to a court

1:47

filing, an ICE agent. that identified

1:50

himself as Elvin Hernandez is one

1:52

of the agents there to arrest

1:54

a recent Columbia graduate named Mahmoud

1:56

Kaleo. Mahmoud and his very pregnant

1:58

wife are coming home from an

2:01

if-to-our-dinner. Yeah, because it's Ramadan.

2:03

Yeah, because it's Ramadan. Yeah,

2:05

because it's Ramadan. And as

2:07

they got to their apartment,

2:09

the agents are there, and

2:11

Mahmoud Khalil is handcuff. His

2:14

wife actually recorded that moment

2:16

on her phone. You're going

2:18

to be on the arrest.

2:20

So turn around, turn around,

2:22

turn around, turn around, stop

2:24

resisting. Okay, okay, he's not

2:27

resisting. He's going to be

2:29

his phone, okay? He's not,

2:31

I understand, he's not resisting.

2:33

You guys really don't need

2:35

to be doing all of

2:37

that. They're fine. They're fine.

2:40

Okay. Hi Amy. Yeah, they

2:42

just like handcuffed them and

2:44

just didn't. I don't know

2:46

what to do. Mahmoud Khale's

2:48

family is Palestinian. They lived

2:50

in Syria, then they fled

2:53

Syria, and eventually he came

2:55

to the US to go

2:57

to Colombia. He got his

2:59

green card and while he

3:01

was at Columbia, he became

3:03

a very public face of

3:06

the protests on campus in

3:08

support of Palestinians last year

3:10

after Israel's bombardment of Gaza

3:12

following the October 7th, 2023

3:14

attacks. It's

3:20

a full transparency. I'm a graduate

3:23

of Columbia and it just so

3:25

happens that I was at an

3:27

alumni event on the very first

3:30

day of the protest in 2024.

3:32

And so I took out my

3:34

recorder and that's the tape that

3:37

you're hearing right now. And those

3:39

protests and the encampment from those

3:41

demonstrators put Colombia at kind of

3:44

the epicenter of all these national

3:46

conversations, right, like about the war

3:48

on Gaza and protesting Israel and

3:51

how many people saw protesting Israel

3:53

as anti-Semitic. Justice! for the protesters

3:55

on campus and the university's administrators.

3:58

So apparently he was like negotiating

4:00

on behalf of students and pushing

4:02

for the university to divest from

4:05

Israel. So after his arrest, when

4:07

his wife was trying to find

4:09

him at federal detention centers nearby,

4:12

she couldn't. And it wasn't until

4:14

later that the federal government told

4:16

his wife and his lawyers where

4:19

Makmukule was being held. In the

4:21

detention center in Louisiana, that's notorious

4:23

for physical and sexual abuse of

4:26

detainees. Wow. Yeah. And so the

4:28

government said they were beginning the

4:30

process of deporting him. But he's

4:32

a legal permanent resident, so wouldn't

4:35

he be safe from deportation? Listen,

4:37

that's what I thought, but it

4:39

turns out green car holders can

4:42

actually be deported for committing certain

4:44

kinds of crimes. But Kale wasn't

4:46

charged with anything. He wasn't, and

4:49

in their statements, administration officials have

4:51

been clear that he was not

4:53

arrested for committing a crime. This

4:56

was all seemingly motivated by a

4:58

dislike for what Kaleel was protesting?

5:00

Yeah, it seems like it. And

5:03

after its arrest, the White House

5:05

posted this image of Makmoo Kale

5:07

on its socials, you know, with

5:09

text that read, Shalom Makmu, and

5:12

it kind of looked like a

5:14

mugshot. And since then, we know

5:16

that another Columbia student has been

5:19

arrested and detained by ICE. And

5:21

then there was a third student

5:23

ICE was looking for, but... Before

5:26

they could find her, she just

5:28

willingly bounced, left the country, went

5:30

to Canada. And so on this

5:32

episode, why one legal scholar says

5:35

Mahmoud Khalil's arrest should really worry

5:37

all of us and how students

5:39

at Columbia feel in the wake

5:42

of this latest turn of events.

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6:54

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6:56

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6:58

change redefined medicine and

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continues to impact the

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lives of millions. After

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being recruited to an

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current therapies and pioneered

7:14

life-saving treatments. She was also

7:16

the co-founder of Ronald McDonald House

7:18

charities, now playing only in

7:21

theaters. as news of Makmakalil's

7:23

arrest made the rounds was,

7:25

can the government even do this?

7:27

And so we decided to call up a

7:29

legal scholar to talk through a lot of

7:31

the issues at play. So I'm Steve

7:34

Vlodik. I'm a law professor at

7:36

Georgetown University and I write a

7:38

newsletter about the Supreme Court called

7:40

One First. Makmakalil has a green card.

7:43

So he is a legal permanent resident.

7:45

And so the assumption a lot of people

7:47

make, I know this is what I mean.

7:49

That green card holders holders are...

7:52

safe from deportation. If you are

7:54

a green card holder, if you are

7:56

a lawful permanent resident, the long-term understanding

7:58

has been you have... constitutional

8:01

rights that are approaching those

8:03

of U.S. citizens, and indeed

8:05

in many cases that are

8:07

the same as U.S. citizens,

8:09

the one place where that

8:11

hasn't been true historically is

8:13

when it comes to removal.

8:15

And, you know, even someone

8:17

with a green card who

8:19

commits a particular type of

8:21

crime subjects themselves to being

8:23

removed from the country, the

8:25

green card is not a

8:27

defense. and Killeel's lawyers have

8:29

told the district court in

8:31

New York, overnight, Saturday night,

8:33

Killeel was transferred first from

8:35

a detention center in Manhattan

8:37

to Elizabeth, New Jersey, and

8:40

then sometime later on Sunday

8:42

to the big immigration detention

8:44

center in Jana, Louisiana. I

8:46

think on Wednesday. finally learned,

8:48

I think, from the federal

8:50

government, what its claimed basis

8:52

is for doing all of

8:54

this, which is this very

8:56

obscure provision of federal immigration

8:58

law that allows the Secretary

9:00

of State to order the

9:02

removal of an individual, even

9:04

someone like Kale, who has

9:06

a green card, if the

9:08

Secretary of State determines that

9:10

there are continued presence in

9:12

the country, represents a threat,

9:14

jeopardizes the foreign policy interest

9:16

of the United States. Before

9:18

this case, had you ever

9:20

heard of this provision being

9:22

invoked before? No. I mean,

9:24

there's exactly one reported example

9:26

of this provision being used.

9:28

My understanding is that maybe

9:30

it's been used a grand

9:32

total of somewhere between two

9:34

and four times in the

9:36

73 years. It's been on

9:38

the books. And you know,

9:40

what are the questions about

9:42

this case is, was that

9:44

always the plan? Or, you

9:46

know, did the administration scramble

9:49

basically to retcon onto this

9:51

whole affair a justification that

9:53

came up with only after

9:55

the fact? I'm not sure

9:57

we know the answer to

9:59

that yet. obscure provision

10:01

has only been invoked a few times

10:03

in seven decades. Do you know anything

10:05

about the other instances in which the

10:07

federal government made this

10:10

argument? So, you know, there's one

10:12

reported case from the 1990s, which

10:14

really was not nearly as sensational

10:16

a case. It was a more

10:18

conventional case, where the individual question

10:20

wasn't actually a green card holder,

10:23

so it really didn't... provoke quite

10:25

the same headlines where you didn't

10:27

have the sensational, you know, nighttime

10:29

arrest of a green card holder

10:31

outside his apartment. And, you know,

10:34

one of the ironies of that

10:36

case from the 1990s is that

10:38

the one court to consider this

10:40

provision, the federal district court in

10:42

New Jersey, held that it was

10:45

unconstitutional because it was vague. where

10:47

the average person on the street

10:49

wouldn't know what conduct they would

10:51

engage in to run afoul of

10:54

this provision, arbitrary and

10:56

otherwise inconsistent with the separation

10:58

of powers, that judge was

11:01

Judge Marianne Trump Barry, the

11:03

president's older sister. What? Wow.

11:05

And you know that case didn't set

11:07

much of a precedent because on

11:09

appeal the federal appeals court in

11:11

Philadelphia vacated that ruling on a

11:14

procedural technicality in an opinion by

11:16

then circuit judge Samuel Alito just

11:18

to make the weird coincences go

11:20

local. Oh my God. But you

11:22

know I mean the larger point is

11:24

that there's just there's no history

11:26

of the government using this provision

11:29

and that's not an accident. I

11:31

mean it's because you know it

11:33

raises serious questions about the First

11:35

Amendment. Serious questions about the Fifth Amendment.

11:38

If someone who is here lawfully, someone

11:40

who has a green card, someone who

11:42

has, you know, at least not been

11:45

charged with any criminal activity, can be

11:47

removed from the country, can be arrested

11:49

pending that removal, just because the Secretary

11:51

of State says so, that seems, at

11:54

least, profoundly un-American, and as part of

11:56

why I think this case has been

11:58

so jarring to everyone. about First

12:00

Amendment protections. Even people like Ann

12:02

Coulter, you know, the conservative, pundit,

12:04

slash provocateur, tweeted, and I'm going

12:07

to quote her tweet here, there's

12:09

almost no one I don't want

12:11

to deport. But unless they've committed

12:13

a crime, isn't this a violation

12:15

of the First Amendment? End quote.

12:17

So does Ann Coulter have a

12:19

point here? Is this unconstitutional? You

12:22

know, the substance of the litigation

12:24

arising out of Kale's case, I

12:26

think is almost entirely going to

12:28

turn. on whether the statute is

12:30

unconstitutional, whether on its face or

12:32

at least as applied to him,

12:34

is there a constitutionally protected speech,

12:37

is a provision that lets the

12:39

Secretary of State just point at

12:41

somebody and say, I'm removing you

12:43

from the country because, you know,

12:45

reasons, a violation of Fifth Amendment

12:47

understandings of due process, you know,

12:49

that's that's going to be really

12:52

where I think the litigation rubber

12:54

hits the road, and it's why

12:56

this is such an important precedent,

12:58

because, you know, if the government

13:00

can do this to Killeel, There's

13:02

no non-citizen to whom they can't

13:05

do this. And that's why I

13:07

think it's so important to watch

13:09

how those constitutional questions get litigated.

13:11

So, Steve, does the government have

13:13

a case here? So, I mean,

13:15

I think the first thing to

13:17

say is these are early days

13:20

and, you know, it's, it's. Terrify

13:22

him for Kale and for his

13:24

pregnant wife that he's been in

13:26

immigration detention since Saturday night. I

13:28

hate to say this, it's not

13:30

uncommon for immigration officials to arrest

13:32

people off the street from their,

13:35

at their jobs, you know, in

13:37

their regular lives, in context in

13:39

which it's not immediately obvious why

13:41

those folks are removable. The real

13:43

answer to does the government have

13:45

a case turns on whether the

13:47

Constitution is a shield against this

13:50

kind of action by the government.

13:52

And because this provision really has

13:54

almost never been used, we just

13:56

don't have case law that answers

13:58

that question. I have to hope

14:00

that the answer is yes, but

14:02

I also have to be, you

14:05

know, accurate and say, but we

14:07

don't know for sure. So President

14:09

Trump has made clear that Kaleel

14:11

is not a special case and

14:13

that the Department of Homeland Security

14:15

has asked Columbia to name other

14:17

students to have in their description

14:20

engaged in pro-Hamas activity. What do

14:22

you think this means for other

14:24

green cardholders like Kale for international

14:26

students or even just American citizens

14:28

who were in any way involved

14:30

with the pro- Palestine protest movement?

14:32

on campus and off campus. I

14:35

think there's no question that part

14:37

of what the White House is

14:39

trying to do here is to

14:41

chill the speech of these folks,

14:43

whether it's citizens or non-citizen, whether

14:45

it's students or non-citizen, whether it's

14:47

students or non-students. And that's perhaps

14:50

the part of this that's the

14:52

most offensive to our traditional First

14:54

Amendment values. I think this case

14:56

is a test case is a

14:58

test case of whether you know,

15:00

just being loosely affiliated with, you

15:02

know, pro-Hamaas protests, or at least

15:05

with protests where one of the

15:07

many arguments, one of the undercurrents,

15:09

is, you know, support for some

15:11

of Hamas's activities, whether that really

15:13

is enough if you're a non-citizen

15:15

to subject you to removal. I

15:17

mean, it's not realistic for the

15:20

Secretary of State to make the

15:22

individualized determinations that are required. to

15:24

have this obscure offensive provision applied

15:26

to more than a handful of

15:28

people, but it might just take

15:30

a handful to scare enough other

15:32

folks in the submission. And that's

15:35

why I think folks have reacted

15:37

the way they have to this

15:39

case. I mean, it's not that

15:41

the government has no authority to

15:43

arrest people who might be removable.

15:45

It's that I think we are

15:47

all chafing at the idea that

15:50

someone could be removable just because

15:52

the Secretary of state makes this

15:54

completely self-serving determination. based on, at

15:56

least to all accounts thus far,

15:58

conduct that's protected by the first

16:00

amendment. Huh. I just want to read you something

16:03

that the president posted on

16:05

true social quote, following my

16:07

previously signed executive orders, ICE

16:09

proudly apprehended entertaining Makmukalil, a

16:11

radical foreign pro-Hama student on

16:13

the campus of Columbia University.

16:15

This is the first arrest

16:17

of many to come. We

16:19

know there are more students

16:21

at Columbia and other universities

16:23

across the country who have

16:25

engaged in pro-terrorists. anti-Semitic anti-American

16:27

activity and the Trump administration

16:29

will not tolerate it." What does

16:32

it mean that the Trump

16:34

administration is conflating pro-terrorism

16:36

with anti-Semitic and anti-American

16:39

and pro-Palestinian? Yeah,

16:41

I mean, I think what it means

16:43

is we're blurring the exact lines.

16:46

They're supposed to differentiate what the

16:48

government's allowed to do from what

16:50

it's not allowed to do. You

16:52

know, it is not illegal to

16:55

be anti-American in the sense of

16:57

criticizing the policies of the current

16:59

government. It's not illegal to be

17:02

pro-Hamaas if all you're doing is,

17:04

you know, engaging in speech, right?

17:06

And so the part of the

17:08

problem here is that... We have

17:11

a president who, whether willfully or

17:13

just carelessly, is blurring what historically

17:15

has been critical legal distinctions between

17:18

conduct, the likes of which can

17:20

render you subject to criminal prosecution,

17:23

and if you're a non-citizen removal

17:25

from the country, and speech, which

17:27

historically has been protected, indeed sacrosanct.

17:30

And you know, there are a

17:32

lot of folks online who say,

17:34

well, Kalea wasn't just speaking, he

17:37

was engaged in all this other

17:39

stuff. If there's, you know, an

17:41

evidentiary basis for saying that he

17:44

was doing more than just, you

17:46

know, engaging in conscious and protected

17:48

speech, the government is free to provide

17:50

it. They had it yet. So you're

17:52

saying that, you know, it's not legal

17:54

to be anti-American or even pro-Habas. And so

17:56

far, this, the federal government's

17:58

or the White House is. posture is directed at

18:01

post-piled Palestinian protesters, but a lot of

18:03

people are worried that other protest movements,

18:05

like Black Lives Matter, could be next.

18:08

Do you see other protests potentially being

18:10

labeled as well? Yeah, I mean, Black

18:12

Lives Matter, you know, think about some

18:14

of the protests we're starting to see

18:17

at Tesla dealerships, you know, not hard

18:19

to imagine. people in the White House

18:21

trying to connect opposition to Elon Musk

18:23

companies with opposition to the administration. I

18:26

think President Trump made that link pretty

18:28

explicitly the other day, right? He said

18:30

that. And that's why this case matters.

18:32

I mean, you know, this case matters,

18:35

of course, in the immediate instance for

18:37

Kale, for his wife, for their family,

18:39

for their friends. But this case matters

18:41

to all of us, even those of

18:44

us who are citizens, because the government's

18:46

effort to remove a green card holder.

18:48

with no specific claim that he committed

18:50

a crime, with no specific claim that

18:53

he did anything other than activity that

18:55

the Secretary of State has decided, you

18:57

know, by himself, is inconsistent with America's

18:59

foreign policy interests. I mean, that approach,

19:02

no matter what you think of Kale,

19:04

no matter what you think of Hamas,

19:06

is just such a terrifying precedent in

19:08

an era in which There are so

19:11

many efforts coming out of this government

19:13

to intimidate, to chill, to suppress those

19:15

who would push back against what it's

19:18

doing. And, you know, one does not

19:20

have to have any sympathy for Hamas,

19:22

for Kale, even for Palestinians, although I

19:24

do, to believe that this is an

19:27

incredibly slippery slope to go down, and

19:29

that at the bottom of it is

19:31

a really, really dangerous body of law,

19:33

not just for green cardholders, but for

19:36

everyone. Can I ask you just like

19:38

legally procedure was what happens though? So

19:40

you know the first question is whether

19:42

this case could even go forward in

19:45

New York. That's what the lawyers would

19:47

call the jurisdictional question. So there's going

19:49

to be some maneuvering about like which

19:51

court even hears this case. Right. Then

19:54

I think the government's going to argue

19:56

that Killeel's lawsuit is premature, that he

19:58

actually has to go through the full

20:00

immigration process before he can challenge it

20:03

in court. And if that's how this

20:05

goes, then it's going to be a

20:07

couple months, maybe even six to eight

20:09

months, before this case gets to the

20:12

federal appeals court in New Orleans, right,

20:14

which would be the one with jurisdiction,

20:16

and then maybe even a year before

20:18

it gets to the Supreme Court. So,

20:21

you know, this could take a while.

20:23

Kaleel could be in immigration detention the

20:25

whole time. Jesus, okay. And so in

20:27

the interim, his family just has to,

20:30

what, like, this all just has to

20:32

play out, right? I mean, immigration detention

20:34

sucks. Yeah. I mean, just like I,

20:37

you know, part of the problem here

20:39

is that I think folks, you know,

20:41

folks don't, or at least without, without

20:43

the visuals of a case like this,

20:46

folks don't fully appreciate how broad the

20:48

government's authority is and how like, you

20:50

know, how, how, how, how prone to

20:52

abuse it prone to abuse it can

20:55

abuse it can be. Steve

20:57

Lattock is a professor of law

20:59

at the Georgetown University Law Center.

21:01

He's also the author of the

21:04

shadow docket, how the Supreme Court

21:06

uses stealth rulings to a mass

21:08

power and undermine the Republic. Thank

21:10

you so much Steve. Thank you.

21:13

We reached out to both the

21:15

State Department and the Department of

21:17

Homeland Security for comment, and we

21:19

did not hear back. But

21:22

coming up, we head to

21:24

Columbia University, where students there

21:26

are trying to make sense

21:28

of what's going on and

21:30

worried about what comes next.

21:33

Because Mahmoud Khalil was a

21:35

green card holder, it's not

21:37

just visa students. It's not

21:39

just international students. I think

21:41

it's rattled even American citizens

21:43

who are like, wait, can

21:46

I be next? Stay with

21:48

us. This

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22:53

message comes from Carvana. My

24:00

name is Claudia Steenhart. I'm

24:02

a student at the Columbia

24:05

Journalism School in the Master of

24:07

Arts program. Claudia is also

24:10

an international student. She's from

24:12

Denmark and she told us

24:14

a bit about what she's

24:16

seeing on her locked-down Ivy

24:18

League campus. The first time I

24:20

ever went to Columbia was in 2023.

24:22

I was visiting a good friend of

24:25

mine at the journalism school and

24:27

You walk in through this

24:29

big iron gate at the

24:31

time that was open and

24:33

you walk through this boulevard

24:35

of trees and then you get

24:38

into this massive main lawn. Yeah,

24:40

you could walk in and sit

24:42

on the grass, you could sit

24:45

on the steps and have your

24:47

coffee and watch that campus life

24:49

unfold. And Flash War II, when

24:52

I was here the first time

24:54

after being accepted this fall.

24:56

I come to these iron

24:58

gates that are now closed and

25:00

in front of them there are

25:02

little houses for the guards. So

25:04

that whole idea of that open

25:06

New York City-based big lawn campus

25:09

where you could walk in and

25:11

out that looked a lot different.

25:13

So where were you Claudia when

25:15

you heard about Makmukuleo who

25:17

was a Columbia student up

25:19

so right recently and his

25:22

arrest by ICE? It was my birthday

25:24

on Saturday actually. And so you

25:26

went out to talk to some

25:28

of your fellow Columbia

25:31

students, and I think

25:33

the first ones, and I

25:35

didn't actually know about

25:37

him personally before. Gotcha.

25:40

And so you went out to

25:42

talk to some of your fellow

25:45

Columbia students about

25:47

what is feeling like

25:49

right now on campus. What

25:51

did the people you spoke

25:53

to have to say about how

25:55

The campus feels now as compared

25:57

to, you know, this time last

25:59

year. when student protests were at

26:01

their height and getting a lot

26:04

of attention. Well, there are

26:06

several really interesting things I

26:08

found that people said. One

26:10

thing was that last year

26:12

it was very contentious, right?

26:14

Whenever there was a protest

26:16

for one side, you could

26:18

expect for there to be

26:20

a counter-process from the other

26:22

side. And so there was

26:24

this constant, very dichotomous conversation

26:26

going with these two opposing

26:28

groups. But now... There's a

26:30

sense that you well that

26:32

just the other day there

26:34

was a protest by Jewish

26:36

students who were protesting ice

26:38

presence These were mainly Jewish

26:40

students who had like left-leaning

26:42

pro-Palestinian politics But that was

26:44

a fairly small protest and

26:47

there were no counter voices

26:49

and so there is a

26:51

sort of a feeling that

26:53

That maybe that contention has

26:55

changed a little bit because

26:57

we're beyond the conversation that

26:59

we're having last year like

27:01

now we're in a national

27:03

conversation a conversation about citizen

27:05

rights and everyone is feeling

27:07

less safe and that sort

27:09

of has taken the conversation

27:11

into new territory this is

27:13

a different and more maybe

27:15

perhaps to some at least

27:17

more complex conversation which could

27:19

be I think I heard

27:21

from a few students be

27:23

a bridge sort of feeling

27:26

Maybe going a little bit too

27:29

far, but a slight sense of

27:31

community or unity behind that, because

27:34

everyone is facing that issue. Right,

27:36

so you're saying that there might

27:38

be a bubbling sentiment of like,

27:41

they're cracking down on people for

27:43

people's free speech rights, then all

27:46

of us could be in

27:48

jeopardy. Yeah, I'd say that for

27:50

sure. You said that you talked

27:53

to the leader of that Jewish

27:55

protest group the other day. Can

27:57

you tell me about... who he

28:00

is and what he said to

28:02

you? Yeah, I suppose... to Eharan

28:05

Dardik. When I was watching the

28:07

protest he was leading this, I

28:09

almost want to call it a

28:12

sermon, like he was really emotional

28:14

and enraged. He's making these claims

28:17

or like connecting what's going on

28:19

with ISON campus right now to

28:21

that Jewish history, to prosecution of

28:24

Jews in Europe. He spoke to

28:26

me about that personally too.

28:28

He talked about how conflicting it

28:31

was for him. I'm a Jewish

28:33

student. My politics are more to

28:35

the left. And I have a

28:38

lot of friends who are from

28:40

sort of like all political points.

28:43

And there were definitely points over

28:45

the course of last year where

28:47

I understand why. Zion's

28:50

friends of mine felt unsafe

28:52

because of the way that

28:54

the rhetoric of the protests

28:56

was happening. So what did

28:58

he have to say about

29:00

Trump's new task force to

29:02

combat anti-Semitism that was launched?

29:04

I think Aron felt like

29:07

the narratives about anti-Semitism are

29:09

being used in ways that

29:11

he doesn't resonate with, he

29:13

doesn't feel like it's trying

29:15

to protect him. but maybe

29:17

even the opposite. The attempt

29:19

to use Jews as a

29:21

scapegoat and hide why they're

29:23

doing what they're actually doing,

29:25

which is that the recently

29:28

inaugurated fascist administration wants to

29:30

deport people and hates free

29:32

speech and wants to get

29:34

rid of people who disagree

29:36

with them, has never been

29:38

clearer to me. The White

29:40

House Press Secretary recently said

29:42

that The Department of Homeland

29:44

Security has given Columbia a

29:46

list of names of students

29:49

that they see as having

29:51

taken part in what they

29:53

say are quote pro-Hamaas activities.

29:55

Columbia says it would not

29:57

help Homeland Security identify those

29:59

people. campus. So how does it

30:01

feel on campus right now?

30:03

Like Columbia University remains pretty

30:06

adamant that they're not going

30:08

to cooperate with this. But I

30:10

think most students have a very

30:13

strong feeling that there's only so

30:15

much that this university can

30:17

do. And also there was a

30:19

really big cut to the university's

30:21

funding. leading up to this

30:24

detainment. Yeah, the Trump

30:26

administration recently canceled $400

30:28

million in federal grants

30:30

and contracts to Columbia

30:32

University, and they said

30:34

it was over the school's failure

30:36

to police anti-Semitism on

30:39

campus. So I don't think anyone

30:41

is naive enough to think that

30:43

the universities can do exactly

30:45

as they please. Like they're

30:47

in a really difficult position,

30:50

and that leaves. Of course, a lot

30:52

of insecurity and a lot of... I

30:54

think a lot of students are

30:56

wishing that the university

30:59

administration could be more transparent

31:01

with what steps they're taking. I

31:03

think the general sentiment is that

31:05

we've been hearing hollow statements and

31:08

that just does not feel assuring

31:10

in any way. Like we've been

31:12

asking to so many people what

31:14

are our protections, what our protections

31:16

and the answer just... in so

31:19

many words is nothing. I spoke

31:21

to a lot of other international students

31:23

on campus. I'm Shubhanjana. I'm an

31:25

MS Philtham student at Columbia Journalism

31:27

School. I'm from India. Okay, thank

31:29

you. Let's just start, like, how

31:32

are you feeling these days after

31:34

everything that's happened with Mahmoud Khadou?

31:36

Of course I'm more aware I'm

31:38

always looking over my shoulder. I'm

31:41

like, you know, because it creeps

31:43

into you. And because Mahmoud Khalil

31:45

was a green card holder, it's

31:47

not just visa students. It's not

31:49

just international students. I think it's

31:52

rattled even American citizens who are

31:54

like, wait, can I be next?

32:00

So like you said, you are

32:02

an international student in the

32:04

journalism school and there was

32:06

a report in the New

32:08

York Times about this really

32:10

intense meeting between some administrators

32:12

at Columbia and students at

32:14

the J School. And one

32:16

of the faculty members said

32:18

to students who were not

32:20

U.S. citizens, students like you,

32:22

they should avoid reporting on

32:24

Gaza, on Ukraine, and protest

32:26

around Mahmoud Khalil's arrest. And

32:28

then the head of the

32:30

journalism school, according to the

32:32

Times, seconded that and said,

32:34

nobody can protect you, these

32:36

are dangerous times. End quote.

32:38

Are you, Claudia, worried about

32:40

whether you might face consequences

32:42

from immigration authorities for reporting

32:44

on this stuff? I think,

32:46

first of all, it's important to

32:49

say that the, that meeting was,

32:51

like, it was a private context.

32:54

And, and some of those

32:56

quotes are taking out of context

32:58

for, from a one and

33:00

a half hour long meeting where

33:02

we were, I think everyone appreciated

33:05

the candor coming from the faculty

33:07

about the gravity of the

33:09

situation. But in terms of my

33:12

own reporting, yes, that is

33:14

absolutely something that I am aware

33:16

of. I haven't covered the protest

33:19

as a journalist. I have written

33:21

by Israel and I'm very

33:23

interested in these matters, but I'm

33:25

also now at least you know,

33:28

treading carefully and knowing that if

33:30

I put myself at risk,

33:32

I protect myself. Because it, I

33:35

can't expect, at this point,

33:37

it's, you can expect so little

33:39

of the rights that you thought

33:41

were certain before. And I'm new

33:44

to this country. I've been

33:46

here, what, six months? It's hard

33:48

for me to, to, to

33:50

feel like confident in exactly what

33:53

I can and cannot do. and

33:55

to know exactly what rights I

33:57

have and I don't have

33:59

in the first place and now

34:02

that I know that... a green

34:04

card holder can potentially, can be

34:07

detained and it's intransparent. We

34:09

don't know for what reasons. That

34:11

makes me have to double,

34:13

to take a double take on

34:15

everything I do. And as a

34:18

journalist, especially because it's going to

34:20

have my name on it

34:22

and it's going to be written

34:25

in my voice. And if

34:27

I want to build a career

34:29

in the US, if I want

34:31

to stay beyond my student visa,

34:34

these are just... New and

34:36

very serious concerns that I cannot

34:38

avoid having. And I'm, you

34:40

know, I'm from Europe, I'm from

34:43

Denmark, I come from a very

34:45

privileged position. This isn't, I'm not

34:48

the one that's most at

34:50

risk here. I have student colleagues

34:52

who are Arabs and Muslims and

34:54

who have covered these topics and

34:57

I don't think there's any

34:59

denying that they are much more

35:01

at risk. This were going

35:03

down before you decided on coming

35:06

to Columbia and the United States

35:08

for a journalism degree. I mean,

35:10

would you have decided to

35:12

still come to Columbia? I mean,

35:15

I was talking to a

35:17

friend of mine about this yesterday.

35:19

We applied, or we got our

35:22

acceptance letter right when the encampments

35:24

began. And we were watching

35:26

it from afar, and we also

35:28

watched the... university cracked down on

35:31

it, the police coming in. Like

35:33

we knew about the contentiousness

35:35

on campus. And so we can't,

35:38

like the batch before us

35:40

or the undergrads who applied in

35:42

completely different circumstances, they can maybe

35:44

say that they were really surprised.

35:47

But we are just not,

35:49

I mean I knew that going

35:51

in. If I'd known that

35:53

there would be ICE or federal

35:56

agents. in university building singling out

35:58

students for their activism. for their

36:01

use of their First

36:03

Amendment. I'm not

36:06

sure that I would

36:08

have thought that was

36:10

a great place to

36:12

practice journalism. It's

36:15

also, I can't

36:17

help but think

36:19

that this is a site

36:21

of a much larger

36:24

issue in this country.

36:26

And I think, yeah, I

36:28

don't. I don't know, I think

36:30

it's bringing up questions about

36:33

whether, like I've always wanted to

36:35

live in the US and I

36:37

really dreamt about coming here for

36:39

a long time. And now it's, it feels

36:41

like the roof is coming in,

36:43

you know, like I've recognized some of

36:45

these political issues from

36:47

back home in Europe and Denmark

36:50

where we've had really really

36:52

tight immigration policies for

36:54

years and years and it's been

36:56

very ugly to witness. And I

36:58

think I had an expectation

37:00

that it wouldn't happen

37:02

here. And that's kind of what

37:04

I loved about the countries. I

37:07

feel a little bit like I've

37:09

lost my sense of direction and

37:11

also like I'm standing in the eye

37:13

of a store and I can't really

37:15

grasp. And then I feel very

37:17

distraught about what I can do

37:19

about it. Because it seems like

37:22

from now on it's about sort

37:24

of keeping your head down and

37:26

trying not to put yourself at

37:28

risk. But as a journalist, you

37:30

probably know this, it makes you want

37:32

to do the opposite. It just does

37:34

not feel right, like all those conversations

37:36

we've had about journalism these past

37:39

six months, about how important it

37:41

is for democracy, and like for,

37:43

like, feel like we're changing the

37:45

world and making it better, and

37:47

then now it's like, okay, well

37:49

now the world is changing beyond

37:51

that, so you just, like, you

37:53

might just want to stay quiet

37:55

for a little bit. We

38:00

reached out to officials in the

38:02

Trump administration and a state department

38:04

spokesperson told us, we do not

38:06

comment on pending or ongoing litigation.

38:09

We also reached out to Columbia

38:11

University for comment and we didn't

38:13

hear back, but the faculty of

38:15

the Columbia University journalism school released

38:18

a public statement that read in

38:20

part, quote, the Columbia Journalism School

38:22

stands in defense of first amendment

38:25

principles of free speech and free

38:27

press across the political spectrum. They

38:29

went on to say, quote, all

38:31

who believe in these freedoms should

38:34

steadfastly oppose the intimidation, harassment, and

38:36

detention of individuals on the basis

38:38

of their speech or their journalism."

38:40

End quote. As for us on

38:43

Coach Which, we are going to

38:45

stay on this story. We're going

38:47

to keep following it because it

38:49

is implications for all of us.

38:52

And that is our show. You

38:54

can follow us on Instagram at

38:56

NPR Code Switch. If email is

38:58

more your thing, ours is Code

39:01

Switch at npr.org and subscribe to

39:03

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sponsor free. So please go find

39:28

out more at plus.npr.org/Code Switch. This

39:30

episode was produced by Xavier Lopez.

39:32

It was edited by Courtney Stein.

39:35

Our engineers were Gilly Moon and

39:37

Patrick Murray. And we'd be remiss

39:39

if we did not shout out

39:41

the rest of the Code's Witch

39:44

Massive. That's Christina Kala, Jess Kung,

39:46

Leah Danella, Dahlia Mortata, and Verlin

39:48

Williams. And special thanks to Claudia

39:50

Steenhard, and to Code Switch Alums,

39:53

Deba Motasham, and Tumbi Misra. As

39:55

for me, I'm Jean Dunby. I'm

39:57

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