0:03

permission to speak. Shadows

0:05

hide you. I am

0:08

this one. Our paths

0:11

converge. So good to

0:13

see you. Hail to

0:16

you! Never be some.

0:18

Dear French, shadows. I

0:21

hear you. It has

0:23

only begun. Fido! Welcome

0:32

to episode 482 of Coin

0:34

Conceit, our Hearthstone podcast dedicated

0:36

to making the competitors side of

0:39

the game more accessible to you.

0:41

It is Thursday, January

0:43

30th, 2025 in the evening. Coming

0:45

to you from Nomergan, Ohio, it's

0:48

me, Edelvice. From Northran,

0:50

Massachusetts, we have Wicked Good.

0:52

Hi. And from all

0:54

around the world we have you deal with

0:56

news, this week's episode is brought to you

0:58

by our producers, Number Theory, Crash, Beef Squatch,

1:01

David P, Guadaloo, Jeremy T, Bottle Caps, Grumpy

1:03

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1:05

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1:07

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1:09

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1:12

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monetarily, please consider leaving

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this five-store review and

1:31

a podcast feed-of-choice,

1:34

as it always helps people

1:36

find the show. So, life in ladder,

1:38

I have, I would say, made

1:41

questionable life decisions, but

1:43

really it's like, I have gotten caught

1:45

up in what I refer to as

1:47

the spiral. This was much

1:49

worse when I used to play

1:51

League of Legends because

1:54

those games last a long

1:56

time. But basically it's

1:58

like you get in... a headspace

2:00

where you just like you keep having

2:02

to play one more game. Obviously it's

2:05

really bad when you're losing because as

2:07

we've discussed you keep losing a lot

2:09

of times and you know it's but

2:12

sometimes it like it can happen if

2:14

you're winning because you just like are

2:16

riding that thrill right and you just

2:19

want to keep going and sometimes it's

2:21

like when you're going back and forth

2:23

because it's like. you lose a game

2:26

and want to play again to end

2:28

on a win and you win a

2:30

game and then just like want want

2:33

to catch that high again and it

2:35

just keeps going and I feel like

2:37

the combination of I really like the

2:40

many set cards and all the new

2:42

stuff to do with them but that

2:44

then has meant that I've climbed to

2:47

like very high ranks I've fallen somewhat

2:49

now I'm in like the 600s but

2:51

for a while I was in like

2:54

300 I was in striking range of

2:56

my personal best, which is the most

2:58

dangerous place for me to be health-wise,

3:01

because I'm just like, but what if

3:03

I could do it? What if I

3:05

could be my personal best of like

3:08

260? Now, I don't even think I

3:10

actually ended a month at 260. I

3:12

just know that's like the highest rank

3:15

I've ever been is somewhere around there.

3:17

I think that was playing like odd

3:19

rogue. Yeah, it's just been the mix

3:22

of like wanting to try different things

3:24

and being in that striking range of

3:26

my personal best where I've just been

3:29

like torn between the ambition and innovation

3:31

of it all and and getting really

3:33

frustrated because some of the decks that

3:36

you lose to in this meta just

3:38

it feels really really bad. I mean,

3:40

we'll talk about that. I mean, we'll

3:43

talk about that. I mean, we'll talk

3:45

about that. I mean, we'll talk about

3:47

that. I mean, really, really, really bad.

3:50

I mean, I mean, I mean, I

3:52

mean, I mean, I mean, Yeah, fizzle

3:54

stuff and dungar and weapon rogue, right?

3:57

It's just like, ugh. Yeah, Wicked was

3:59

pointing out before the show and you

4:01

can speak more of this wicked, but

4:04

a lot of, like even the newer

4:06

decks that are using it, a lot

4:08

of the cards that are feeling bad

4:11

right now are old card, old, last

4:13

year's cards, like is all, like, you

4:15

know, Dungar is this year, but, at

4:18

Titans, like, Yogg and A&R, or last

4:20

year, Titan Force traps is last year,

4:22

which Wicked you had mentioned, you got,

4:25

like, for Titan Force traps in a

4:27

game. Yeah, we're not pleased. Yeah, I

4:29

was, that was me making the mistake

4:32

of queuing a game at lunch and

4:34

I thought I was going to be

4:36

late getting back. Um, I, I, we're

4:39

back, we're kind of back to when

4:41

I picked up eternal because I couldn't

4:43

cue a game on the train station

4:46

platform because the games took 30 minutes

4:48

when, when half the decks had, um,

4:50

had the original Rexar hero power from

4:53

Knights of the Frozen Throne in it,

4:55

and every game went past fatigue. past

4:57

fatigue. Yeah, and

4:59

I think, I mean, I guess

5:02

we're gonna add the hero power

5:04

creatures, the hero power minions from

5:06

Druid that list now too, that

5:08

are also showing up all of

5:11

a sudden. Which I admit, I

5:13

played a bunch of that and

5:15

I do like. That deck it

5:18

is kind of cool. It's counterintuitive

5:20

that it works the way it

5:22

does where it buffs when you're

5:25

our Tannis your hero power like

5:27

your hero's attack is buffed and

5:29

then you also extra buff the

5:32

minion Yeah But yeah, it's kind

5:34

of one of those things where

5:36

it's like oh, this is a

5:38

cool new thing and then you're

5:41

like okay, but um but we

5:43

have seen this before particularly when

5:45

it evolved into the Dragon version.

5:48

Oh yeah, that happened today, isn't

5:50

it? Yeah. Yeah, so for people

5:52

who haven't seen it. I don't

5:55

know that Banta came up with

5:57

it, but McBanta is definitely popularized,

5:59

a hero power druid that also

6:01

uses the Dragon Package, because that

6:04

gives you, I mean, I think

6:06

it is like a more sporting

6:08

deck in that it actually plays

6:11

minions instead of just mind control

6:13

tech. Sure. And it's like, well,

6:15

free taunts are still good. Splish

6:18

bash wealth is still good. If

6:20

you have some of a board

6:22

in the early game, you don't

6:25

have to have as many clears,

6:27

but you still run swipe, and

6:29

you have Chia Drake for draw,

6:31

but then it's also spell damage.

6:34

So let's run incendious, because why

6:36

not? And also, Fye with a

6:38

buffed hero power from our tannus

6:41

on her. And divine shield. And

6:43

lifestyle. And she's free. Yeah. That's

6:45

true. Usually not free. You're not

6:48

going to give a SRP for

6:50

five ever. So yeah, I mean,

6:52

she's close enough to free. When

6:54

I would sink her when I

6:57

was playing Zaremi Priest and seeing

6:59

Dragon Druid on the other side

7:01

often, she was always free for

7:04

me because I had played hate

7:06

dragons. Well, I think you're an

7:08

outlier in that case. I don't

7:11

think everyone's quite playing as many

7:13

dragons as you are, but even

7:15

that deck isn't. Yeah, I mean,

7:18

it's like, I think that's kind

7:20

of the problem is that it

7:22

feels like we're doing new things,

7:24

but then the new things are

7:27

just like, this is a more

7:29

degenerate way to do a lot

7:31

of the old things outside of

7:34

like the zirg decks, which have

7:36

really kind of fallen off. It's

7:38

a lot of how do we

7:41

do star crafty things with the

7:43

broken cards that we had from

7:45

last year? And I think that

7:47

that's that's that's kind of when

7:50

I'm Frustrated with this meta. I

7:52

think I'm taking a little bit

7:54

solace in that it is we

7:57

are getting rotation like a month

7:59

or two and that should shake

8:01

things up considerably because some of

8:04

these cards are just so ubiquitous

8:06

and we've just seen them so

8:08

much that you know it's it'll

8:10

be good to see what this

8:13

meta is like when we don't

8:15

have those in the meta. Yeah it's

8:17

kind of a shame because I I

8:19

wish we could see what some of

8:21

these cards are like in you know

8:23

post rotation but without

8:26

new cards if that new cards

8:28

if that makes sense. like yeah

8:30

it it it it doesn't function

8:32

because that's like three sets

8:35

right like it could be an interesting

8:38

event though i guess it it could

8:40

work because many sets exist

8:42

right like when when we didn't

8:45

have many sets it would just

8:47

be like way too few cards

8:49

but with many sets and this

8:52

one being the biggest mini

8:54

set ever like you've got

8:56

four sets plus four mini

8:58

sets one of them being

9:00

larger. I just yeah I want

9:02

to see how some of the things

9:05

shine losing the old stuff

9:07

but not having a new set

9:09

yet like I always wish

9:11

rotation came rather than the

9:13

frank and meta I wish it

9:16

was like okay and

9:18

rotation happens and you'll

9:20

have an expansion in a

9:22

week or two. That would actually

9:24

be interesting. Magic Arena used to do

9:26

that around the time of rotation where they

9:28

just have like next year's standard, whatever

9:31

next year is, and they just run

9:33

all those sets that hadn't come out, like

9:35

just the sets that were still going

9:37

to be in standard without the stuff

9:39

that was rotating. And that was always

9:41

an interesting format too. That would be, I

9:43

mean, we kind of got a taste of that with

9:45

the Great Dark Beyond pre-release, where

9:48

we didn't have last year's cards, and

9:50

like that meta felt really good. I mean

9:52

we also we also only had it

9:54

for a week so it was not enough

9:56

time for it to get old but but

9:58

it was still it was an interesting

10:00

meta and it felt fresh in

10:02

a way that like not that

10:05

this doesn't feel fresh like they

10:07

did a really good shot really

10:09

good job with this mini set

10:11

in that it's these decks feel

10:14

different but until they started to

10:16

not and I mean they still

10:18

feel different than what we have

10:20

before because there is still a

10:23

lot of starcraft flavor in at

10:25

least some of them I mean

10:27

obviously Dungar drew it is what

10:29

it is and but but you

10:32

know there there is a fair

10:34

amount of of Starcraft flavor in

10:36

these. But yeah, I mean, even

10:38

like the protest stuff is pretty

10:41

much pushed out of the meta.

10:43

The Zurich stuff is starting to

10:45

get pushed out of the meta.

10:47

I mean, you know, we still

10:50

have both Zurg Death Knight and

10:52

location warlock in like in tier

10:54

two. So, but it's not, I

10:56

mean, I think we would also

10:58

be annoyed if Zurg decay was

11:01

as dominant still as it was.

11:03

last week when we were talking.

11:05

But you know, Terran shaman, it

11:07

is a shaman deck. It's still

11:10

got like backstage bouncer in it.

11:12

If you're playing the agro version,

11:14

it's got fizzle and we'll talk

11:16

about that in the infinite version.

11:19

But it's also got a significant

11:21

number of new cards. I mean,

11:23

it's really leaned into the Terran

11:25

synergies. Yeah, I mean, if it

11:28

didn't have fizzle, it would. be

11:30

fine. It would not feel quite

11:32

as oppressive, I don't think. I

11:34

think it's the fact that it's

11:37

going infinite with fizzle that makes

11:39

it feel a little bit grindy.

11:41

I think if that wasn't there,

11:43

it would feel a lot better.

11:46

Yeah, for people who are enjoying

11:48

it, I think for people who

11:50

are not enjoying facing it, yeah,

11:52

I certainly am more of the

11:54

siege tank. version. Goku here is

11:57

pointing out there is also a

11:59

Zurg Discover hunter that's less popular

12:01

but totally respectable to play. Yeah,

12:03

I messed around with that some

12:06

because I was I was desperately

12:08

trying to avoid the infinite shaman.

12:10

and Grunter Hunter, because I, Grunter

12:12

Hunter just doesn't super appeal to

12:15

me. I find oftentimes that decks

12:17

that I despise facing, I also,

12:19

I'm not interested in playing. Yeah.

12:21

And yeah, I don't, I don't

12:24

know exactly why that is. I

12:26

mean you can just be sick

12:28

of a mechanic too, right? Like

12:30

that's, it doesn't mean that you're,

12:33

you're only, like that doesn't necessarily

12:35

make it fun when you're playing

12:37

it, right? It can be just

12:39

as, it's valid for you to

12:42

not like playing against something, but

12:44

also not really enjoy that's just

12:46

a play pattern in general. Right.

12:48

Like the shaman is something actually,

12:50

it's one of those where it

12:53

should appeal to me, but I

12:55

have been facing it so much.

12:57

I don't want mirrors. And particularly

12:59

with the infinite version, Good Lord.

13:02

At least with the Temple One,

13:04

you know, they'll be over fast.

13:06

Those mirrors don't sound so bad.

13:08

But I played one mirror with

13:11

the infinite shaman. And I was

13:13

just like, I won that game

13:15

and I don't feel good. There

13:17

is element of just like, did

13:20

you roll well on your starships?

13:22

Yeah. Because if you rolled three

13:24

medivacs, get wrecked, I guess. Yeah,

13:26

I think that that's both something

13:29

that some people like about the

13:31

deck and the thing that's amplified

13:33

in the mirror. is that luck

13:35

of like what Starship did you

13:37

roll? Because it does lead to

13:40

some differences between the games and

13:42

you have to adapt to what

13:44

you got to some extent, which

13:46

adds a dimension, but also sometimes

13:49

you just lose the mirror because

13:51

you rolled three minutes back. Yeah.

13:53

And they did. Oh. There was

13:55

a credit post from Zetti that,

13:58

and I don't often quote Zetti,

14:00

but that was pointing out that

14:02

this is the first set or

14:04

mini set in as long as,

14:07

I mean, he said in a

14:09

while, I don't remember if he

14:11

said exactly how long, but it's

14:13

as long as I can remember,

14:16

with zero discover, which is like

14:18

zero cards with the word, with

14:20

the keyword discover on them. That's

14:22

not true. Does it discover hunter?

14:25

No, no, no, in in in

14:27

Starcraft. Oh, that we're just printed.

14:29

Yeah, that we're just printed. Like,

14:31

this is the only, the only

14:33

miniset or, you know, any release,

14:36

whatever, that doesn't have any discover

14:38

on it. And I think that

14:40

it actually does make it a

14:42

little bit more interesting. I mean,

14:45

obviously you can't really do discover

14:47

with the sets of, I mean,

14:49

because what you would do is

14:51

discover protossers or zer. Karen and

14:54

it would just be like you

14:56

get the same cards every time.

14:58

So they can't really do that.

15:00

But also like no discover of

15:03

anything else. And I think that

15:05

really is an interesting, I don't

15:07

know if it makes it better

15:09

or worse, but it does make

15:12

it feel a little different that

15:14

there's a lot less discover in

15:16

this meta. Yeah, I was in

15:18

Leo's chat and. talking about how

15:21

much I hate Metavac. I mean,

15:23

look, all the theming is on

15:25

point, like 10 out of 10.

15:27

But I mean, I was coming

15:29

off multiple games of rolling like

15:32

three Metavacs in a row. So

15:34

yeah. It is ironic that Metavac

15:36

gives you heartburn, but yes. But

15:38

I talked about like, I wish

15:41

there was like some way you

15:43

could just like veto an option.

15:45

Like, full on discover, definitely too

15:47

strong, right. Right. well like five

15:50

options to begin with in the

15:52

first place so you would just

15:54

always pick damage or armor or

15:56

whatever you need in that moment

15:59

but and with limited choices, I

16:01

suppose being shown to would still

16:03

be too strong. But I almost

16:05

wish it was just like, and

16:08

there's no way they would do this,

16:10

but it shows you, like, this is

16:12

what you're gonna get. Do you want

16:14

something else? Yes, and then it rolls

16:16

from the remaining. Like the re rolls

16:18

that they have in Bee G's now.

16:21

Exactly. Let me a re-roll, so I

16:23

can be like, no meta back, please,

16:25

no thank you. That would

16:27

actually be an interesting strategy because

16:29

if it's something that's fine, but

16:32

it's not as good as it could be,

16:34

do you risk the Medevac? Or to try

16:36

to get something better. Like, there would

16:38

actually, but it would be too slow,

16:40

I think. And the Medevac is much

16:42

better in the Tampa version, right? Because, like,

16:44

you can get a full board, you can

16:46

bloodless it, you can make weapon ropes cry,

16:48

which I did a lot of. I mean,

16:50

that's always good. So frequently, I feel like

16:53

what you want is like. Three keywords,

16:55

three keywords, then you have those

16:57

die. You've got missile pod for

16:59

one damage to everything. So you're

17:01

likely to roll poison with all

17:03

those extra keywords. And then you

17:06

just want manches. Sometimes you

17:08

want armor. Yeah. Sometimes you

17:10

want armor. Yeah. Especially if

17:12

you're our kinetic defense crystal

17:14

got hoofed. But if you're the the

17:16

agro one, you don't care about armor.

17:19

You just want them to, want

17:21

them to explode. So yeah. Yeah,

17:23

if you're the agro one, then

17:25

you're just like, oh, why didn't

17:27

I roll armor? I mean, every

17:29

once in a while, I did have

17:31

one game versus a weapon rogue

17:33

with the fast terror and shaman,

17:36

where I did not get a

17:38

super fast start. I kept

17:40

rolling vipers, which is the armor

17:42

one. And but I had all the

17:44

taunt in the world. And so I just

17:47

ran them out of stuff. And

17:49

then one. Because I like just...

17:51

didn't get enough damage, but

17:53

I had some armor and I

17:55

had bouncers and I had little

17:58

frogs and I had medivac. and

18:00

then I got them again, and

18:02

they didn't use their deafens maybe

18:04

in the best way that they

18:06

could have, you know, and they

18:09

only have two anyway. So I

18:11

could see them getting just like

18:13

increasingly frustrated, and then they don't

18:15

actually have infinite charges on their

18:17

weapon, and they kept having to

18:20

use charges to clear taunts, and

18:22

then they have no healing. Most

18:24

of the time though, when you

18:26

see a weapon row, you're just

18:28

racing them and you are faster

18:31

on average than they are, which

18:33

is very satisfying. And I would

18:35

imagine as the other shaman, you

18:37

just get a gazillion armor and

18:39

just outlast them. I think you

18:42

still try to kill him, but...

18:44

You also get taunted, you do

18:46

get taunts too. Well, no, I

18:48

think it's probably trickier with the

18:50

slower shamanman, but... I guess it

18:53

depends on what your role. Like

18:55

yeah, I mean they can they

18:57

can have the definite defense crystal

18:59

you can not roll Vikings and

19:01

You know, they do have ways

19:04

of clearing like the the pop-up

19:06

book taunts. So I could see

19:08

times where They just roll over

19:10

you, but yeah, it is that

19:12

element of like well you have

19:15

to get lucky on those starships.

19:17

Starship. Yeah, yeah, well other than

19:19

Karen shaman, which was a good

19:22

way to come back to Hearthstone

19:24

because at least the timing was

19:26

good podcast-wise and then I didn't

19:29

have to miss a week But

19:31

I've spent the entirety between last

19:33

podcast and this podcast sick with

19:35

the flu So that was not

19:38

fun I had sort of ADHD

19:40

missed getting my flu shot Because

19:42

I just like didn't get around

19:44

to it. My husband did get

19:47

his flu shot I got really

19:49

sick he barely got sick Take

19:51

from that what you will. My

19:54

other PSA is a backup files

19:56

on your computer before you messed

19:58

with them. It turns out I

20:00

hadn't deleted a whole big folder

20:03

of game saves, but they all

20:05

went hidden for some reason that

20:07

I never figured out. And then

20:10

I had to use the terminal

20:12

to unhide them. And I was

20:14

like, what do people do? We

20:16

don't know how to use the

20:19

terminal and Google. They go to

20:21

the Apple store or they call

20:23

their or they call their grandson,

20:25

you know, one or the other.

20:28

So yeah, just make a copy

20:30

of the folder and put it

20:32

somewhere else and then do and

20:35

then mess with it. And then

20:37

lastly what I'm doing. Leo, aka

20:39

Minty Fresh, aka Mint Condition, aka

20:41

the lead designer of this set

20:44

and the mini set, has been

20:46

having some fun streams with various

20:48

other designers or people on the

20:50

team with him. So I saw

20:53

his with Cora, I saw the

20:55

alone with Gallin. He had hat

20:57

on yesterday. That one featured our

21:00

very own edelice. the warlock, the

21:02

Zurg warlock. And even though you

21:04

would, like, you were doing really,

21:06

really well, but they might well

21:09

have won anyway, except you had

21:11

both consumes. Hat was like, okay,

21:13

we're in good shape if she

21:16

doesn't have consume. And then you

21:18

played consume. And then it's like,

21:20

I did it again. I said

21:22

the worst thing, and it happened.

21:25

He had just done that in

21:27

the previous game. Then, like, like,

21:29

a few turns later. Okay, as

21:31

long as she doesn't have a

21:34

second consume, and then immediately plays

21:36

second consume. See, that's just rookie

21:38

stuff, is that is what that

21:41

is. You know from the stream.

21:43

See, this is the problem is

21:45

that he hasn't streamed in a

21:47

while, because as soon as you

21:50

start streaming, this happens every time

21:52

one of us does a co-op.

21:54

We learn that in the first

21:57

five minutes of the stream. Oh,

21:59

yeah, we need to stop speaking

22:01

things into the universe. Because they

22:03

immediately come, don't come to come

22:06

to be. Yeah. It is science.

22:08

There was, though, Leo and Hat

22:10

were kind of losing their minds

22:12

over Eddle's lethal. She did a

22:15

ton of stuff and got them

22:17

down to three with like ultra-list.

22:19

and stuff like that. And they

22:22

probably would have lost anyway if

22:24

you'd ended the turn there. There

22:26

was a horizon's edge out that

22:28

was closed and no way to

22:31

kill another minion, except there was

22:33

a dark marrow out. And it'll

22:35

have one mana left, so she

22:37

plays the snake oil salesman. And

22:40

it dies because of dark marrow,

22:42

which opens the horizon's edge, which

22:44

shows three damage for exact lethal.

22:47

Hat and Leo were like, what?

22:49

He took me a minute to

22:51

see that, and I was like,

22:53

oh. That text that often is

22:56

not relevant. Yeah. I mean, Darkner

22:58

is usually a foreman of 4-4

23:00

most of the time anyway, so.

23:03

Yeah, I mean. It had been

23:05

used to get, because it, what

23:07

I hadn't realized until I saw

23:09

it happen in that game was

23:12

that it also doubles the death

23:14

rattle of the location. It sure

23:16

does. Two eight eight rushes. Oh,

23:18

yeah. That's why it's a deck.

23:21

That's why it's a deck. That

23:23

makes sense. Well, it's in the

23:25

deck because that's how you get

23:28

horizon's edge. Yeah, because you need

23:30

that for the death night cards.

23:32

Yeah. I made a more aggressive

23:34

version of the lands, Zurich warlock,

23:37

where instead of having like, sargaris

23:39

and ceaseless and that stuff, I

23:41

put in like the the reborn

23:44

thing, the and Eliza and Buckeneer

23:46

is what I mean by the

23:48

regent thing. Yeah, but Buckeneer, Eliza,

23:50

Dreadhound handler, right? So you got

23:53

some of that stuff. Snakeless salesman,

23:55

like you mentioned, it goes pretty

23:57

well with Horizon's Edge and then

23:59

yeah. you've got seaside giant.

24:02

I think in that game I

24:04

was running sea giant as well.

24:06

I ended up swapping those for

24:08

red giant, which has been better

24:10

than I expected. I feel like.

24:12

We have to remind people what

24:14

red giant is. Ah, it is an

24:17

eight manna eight eight with a

24:19

beautiful signature art that is that's

24:21

totally not part of why I

24:23

put those in. But every time you

24:25

play a card next to it,

24:27

it reduces. permanently, right?

24:30

So it's not like you have to

24:32

play eight cards in a turn. And

24:34

I've just found that I can

24:36

often position things in the hand

24:38

we're like, okay, maybe I can't get

24:41

it out super early, but I don't

24:43

have to have this bitterly yo-yoing

24:45

of like, okay, when's the board

24:47

the right size between theirs and

24:50

my board is often filled with

24:52

location stuff, which limits like

24:54

how much I can take advantage

24:57

of a sea giant. I think it's

24:59

probably like it is worse

25:01

specifically against Zurich decay

25:04

because they go wide and don't

25:06

have too much in the way

25:08

of locations because the spawning pool

25:10

goes away quickly. But other

25:12

than that, Red Giant felt pretty

25:15

good because I could just

25:17

kind of sequence things correctly

25:19

to maximize reduction

25:21

and then eventually have a cheap

25:24

or a free aid to go

25:26

with forage. Very occasionally you can just

25:28

like get the right stuff next to

25:30

it and do the old like turn

25:32

four giant, but Most of the time

25:34

it's just like I'm quietly discounting this

25:36

thing while I'm doing the other ways

25:38

of making eight eights And then like fighting

25:41

for board and then it's the refill that

25:43

I can do where I can like play

25:45

it on the same turn as forage or

25:47

something I think you must have switched to Red

25:49

Giant like immediately after that game because very

25:51

shortly after that someone posted in the discord.

25:54

Well I just ran into Eddle and she

25:56

was playing Red Giants and I had to be like...

25:58

What's Red Giant? What is Red Giant? I

26:00

mean that was my Monday night and

26:02

he was buying something weird. She's just

26:04

put custom cards into the client somehow

26:06

and we don't know how she does

26:09

it. Yeah and then I started facing

26:11

just all the infinite shamans and yeah

26:13

it was not fun. I mean that

26:15

was my Monday night because like I

26:18

was streaming Monday night and I ended

26:20

up failing and going to arena about

26:22

halfway through my stream just because it

26:24

was like three or four druids in

26:26

a row followed by four or five

26:29

shamans in a row and it was

26:31

just like I'm I wasn't I wasn't

26:33

losing like it wasn't like I was

26:35

not like I was losing every game

26:38

like I was I had like a

26:40

reasonable 50% win rate but also a

26:42

I was at least what I feel

26:44

like is on the edge of 11x

26:46

whenever I'm in for a four-digit rank

26:49

I feel like I'm at the edge

26:51

of 11x like We were talking today

26:53

about whether I really am or not

26:55

because I'm at around 1300 and my

26:58

case is like you can probably drop

27:00

to about 2000 and still get in

27:02

and I'm like, but I don't want

27:04

to test that theory With fewer legends

27:06

this month, but also it's just like

27:09

if I'm in four-digit territory I'm just

27:11

not feeling comfortable with it. So like

27:13

every game matters a little bit more

27:15

and I get in my own head.

27:17

It doesn't help that like during the

27:20

week I'm so cooked from going into

27:22

be risking my rank when I know

27:24

I'm not playing well. So I haven't

27:26

played a lot this week, but I've

27:29

been staying in that range. But I

27:31

was playing the Zurich, the Zurich decay.

27:33

It was going fine, but it was

27:35

just like, those games take forever. And

27:37

they're just kind of same me. And

27:40

I kind of got tired of it.

27:42

I played some stuff in casual, like

27:44

outside. Just to test some stuff out

27:46

like I played a little more produce

27:49

priest I played some of the both

27:51

of the shamans that we're going to

27:53

talk about like more in casual which

27:55

is not great for Doing matches but

27:57

at least it's giving a flavor for

28:00

the deck and then I'll be able

28:02

like once the month rolls I'll feel

28:04

a little bit better about it. I

28:06

also did finish Dragon Age Dale Guard

28:09

this week on the train and that

28:11

game is amazing and it's $25 right

28:13

now by the way at least on

28:15

Amazon which is a little bit bittersweet

28:17

because they also laid off like most

28:20

of that studio yesterday because of course

28:22

they did. Yeah but the game is

28:24

the game is fantastic and and by

28:26

the way if you haven't played the

28:28

other Dragon Ages neither of I and

28:31

it didn't matter. Like I bounced off

28:33

of Inquisition a couple times. I might

28:35

go back and try to play Inquisition

28:37

now, but it kind of set up

28:40

the stakes from the beginning and it

28:42

was like, I'm sure there's stuff that

28:44

I would have picked up on if

28:46

I played the other games, but it

28:48

didn't really matter. Like it was, it

28:51

still felt like a fulfilling story, like

28:53

standalone, like standalone. So, it's a good

28:55

game and you should play it. Vives

28:57

for half an hour. So we should

29:00

probably talk about the news and then

29:02

talk about the sham index that we've

29:04

also already talked about for half an

29:06

hour. But talk about those more formally.

29:08

So let's do that. Gadgets and Gazette

29:11

always gets the scoop. So not a

29:13

ton of news this week, but a

29:15

couple things that are of note right

29:17

after we recorded on Friday of last

29:20

week, we got patch 30. 1.4.1, which

29:22

addressed a number of the known issues

29:24

that we talked about during the news

29:26

last week, specifically the bug where Inventor

29:28

Boom could fail to resurrect a battle

29:31

cruiser if the if battle cruises that

29:33

cost five or more manna and battle

29:35

cruises that cost five less than five

29:37

manna have died. And if you've had

29:39

multiple battle cruisers that cost five or

29:42

more die, you still will only resurrect

29:44

one of them. That's not a bug.

29:46

That's a feature. We talked about the

29:48

hero power druid and the reason that

29:51

hero power druid took a little bit

29:53

to show up is that there was

29:55

a bug where our tennis. twin

29:57

blades hero power

29:59

wasn't buffed by groovy

30:02

cat they fixed that now hero

30:04

power drew it as a thing um

30:06

it is it's a functional

30:09

change but the text on the

30:11

hero power won't update but it will

30:13

when you press the button you'll get the attack but it's

30:15

not going to look like it when you hover over the the

30:17

hero power so just be aware of that um

30:20

and they fixed

30:22

the bug where starships relaunched by

30:24

reyner did not show their per piece

30:26

enchantments on hovers that's like the

30:28

ribbon underneath the card um so that's

30:30

fixed and then in wild

30:33

mage protostex could discover

30:35

spells from other

30:37

classes every so often i get

30:39

a bug like how the hell did

30:41

that happen i would love to know

30:43

but you know that's that's the thing

30:45

that happened um there's also

30:47

a bug where um if you didn't

30:50

play any twist for the season

30:53

in january or four january but

30:55

your highest rank was your carry over twist

30:57

rating you weren't getting the right ranked

30:59

rewards so like if you got let's

31:02

say you got legend in twist in december

31:04

and you only got like eight x in

31:06

standard you should have gotten the

31:08

chest or legend but you got

31:10

the the chest for standard

31:12

i imagine that probably didn't

31:14

happen that much given how few people were

31:16

playing twist but um you know it's a

31:19

thing that that happened so um they did

31:21

one pass already to

31:23

grant replacement rewards they'll do

31:25

another pass after this patch

31:27

is live um and so if

31:29

you haven't gotten that whole tight

31:31

you'll get your rewards it's coming

31:33

um we also have a minor

31:36

shop update uh not

31:38

no new portraits because there were a

31:40

whole bunch that came out with the mini

31:42

set uh last week but we did get a

31:44

couple that are returning into the shop so

31:47

uh jade serpent thrall

31:49

for shaman and lunar deathwing

31:52

for warrior are

31:54

both purchasable with uh

31:56

699 usd or a thousand gold

31:58

so if you still have some gold

32:00

left over and you're not hoarding it

32:03

for the next expansion, you can go

32:05

get one of those other orchards. There were

32:07

a few others that I don't remember

32:09

if we talked about them or not that

32:11

got added to the shop too. So there's

32:13

a bunch of options if you want

32:16

to use your gold to purchase some

32:18

portraits. And that's it. That's the news

32:20

because we got all the news last week.

32:22

So not so much news this week, but

32:24

yeah, we got a shaman deck or two

32:26

shaman decks, really, really, to talk about. So

32:28

why don't. All

32:43

right, so we already started

32:45

talking about this, but we

32:47

wanted to talk some about

32:49

Taran shaman because that is

32:52

really two of the more

32:54

successful and newer decks in

32:56

the format. So we were going to

32:58

start by kind of at this

33:00

point wrapping up our discussion

33:02

about the infinite physical

33:05

Taran shaman. And then we

33:07

will talk about the seaschank agroterra

33:09

and shaman, which of course is

33:11

what I've been playing more. We

33:14

did. Also, I crowdsourced a

33:16

bunch of advice from our discord

33:18

server on the infinite one, especially

33:20

because we had played it somewhat

33:23

less, although I think Elovice and Wicked

33:25

had faced it plenty. Yeah. And

33:27

you play it a couple times

33:29

and you kind of get the idea.

33:31

It's, you know, it's pretty. It's fairly

33:33

straightforward when you start playing it, but

33:35

it can be a little bit intimidating

33:37

because whenever you have fizzle, it's like,

33:40

well, what do I want in the

33:42

hand? And you really do want to

33:44

pair the hand down a lot, fizzle,

33:46

if you are planning on going infinite, which you

33:48

don't always have to. You make a

33:50

lot of armor just with the star

33:52

ships, like without having to recur them.

33:54

You can make a lot of them,

33:56

but the way that this fizzle goes

33:58

infinite goes infinite. care about actually

34:01

getting more fizzles it only cares

34:03

about getting more snapshots. So that's

34:05

why you have triangulate. So then

34:07

you can shuffle more start more

34:09

snapshots into the deck with with

34:11

the triangulate. You can also you

34:13

run incendious and that's your that's

34:15

your win-con. So you also can

34:17

use that to shuffle more eruptions

34:20

if you don't need to go

34:22

infinite. Incinius I would say is

34:24

probably a plan B win-con where

34:26

rainers of... Plan A, WinCon plus,

34:28

plus C, less. And also just

34:30

to be really, like with the

34:32

fizzle, the one thing that must

34:34

be in your snapshot is a

34:36

triangulate, if you want to go

34:38

in for that. Right. But then

34:41

you could have some combination of

34:43

C, C, C, less, and Raynor,

34:45

like, C, C, C, listen, and

34:47

C, so like, maybe like a

34:49

shutter mini. Not much more than

34:51

that. You probably want the mini

34:53

from the shutter block over the

34:55

real shutter block just because it's

34:57

a lot less mana. But I

35:00

mean, even if you don't have

35:02

time to do it, it's not

35:04

the end of the world. Sometimes

35:06

shutter block can be a little

35:08

bit hard to get down. But

35:10

yeah, unlike with the fizzle Zola

35:12

stuff, right, you don't get to

35:14

remake your snapshot. So once you've

35:16

done it, that's what's in there.

35:18

because you're triangulating, you know, that

35:21

same snapshot every time. Yeah, so

35:23

that's where if you can sort

35:25

of parse it down to be

35:27

just the mini or shutter walk,

35:29

you know, sometimes you get the

35:31

incenduous in there, a lot of

35:33

times it's just like Rayner, ceaseless,

35:35

are the big ones. You can

35:37

have infinite clears and Rayner is

35:40

kind of... infinite all the things

35:42

right it's your plan A because

35:44

it often is armor and a

35:46

clear and aboard and like just

35:48

all all the stuff and you

35:50

know possibly face damage but if

35:52

it's not face damage and you

35:54

do need a way to win

35:56

that's like where insidious can come

35:58

in as as the backup right

36:01

but there can be although you

36:03

have to get a bit lucky

36:05

and actually be faster there can

36:07

be times where you just sort

36:09

of go well I had shutter

36:11

block and then I played insidious

36:13

and I guess that's what we're

36:15

doing now and you know you

36:17

maybe triangulate the the eruptions then

36:20

but I will say my, well,

36:22

let's play this deck, run into

36:24

a mirror. They went hard on

36:26

that plan and didn't quite get

36:28

lucky enough and I was meanwhile

36:30

just turboing Starship things and had

36:32

enough armor on my Starship that

36:34

my playing a bunch of reiners

36:36

outpaced their drawing eruptions and eventually

36:38

I flipped it around. just because

36:41

Rainer's doing more things, right? It's,

36:43

it's gaining the armor, wow, it's

36:45

doing some damage and clearing boards,

36:47

etc. They had really, like, focused

36:49

on doing the eruptions thing to

36:51

the exclusion of spending mana on,

36:53

and maybe they just hadn't drawn

36:55

them yet, I don't know, but

36:57

yeah, I mean, you don't, you

37:00

don't really turbo draw your deck,

37:02

right? So sometimes it's just a

37:04

matter of like what you end

37:06

up with early. And there is

37:08

a lot of draw. You can,

37:10

but you don't always is what

37:12

I'm saying. And the version I

37:14

was playing had no lock-ons in

37:16

place of two gold panters, right?

37:19

So more turbo draw, and then

37:21

minus one triangulate. So you really

37:23

have to triangulate for the photograph

37:25

and ran grifter, right? So, grifter

37:27

gives you just that little extra

37:29

bit of versatility, right, where... You

37:31

can... Well, I made the bird.

37:33

a card for one. But you

37:35

know, you can get some healing,

37:37

you can get the steel one

37:40

is very good right now, right?

37:42

Particularly if you can steal a

37:44

key Starship piece. I mean, that's

37:46

insane, right? But you're like, oh,

37:48

let me steal your Banchi and

37:50

then kill it on my side.

37:52

Like, that's actually huge. But just

37:54

be aware that you're giving them

37:56

a steel also when you do

37:59

that. So you want to make

38:01

sure that you don't have like

38:03

a giant minion on board that

38:05

they can trade. Right that'll kill

38:07

it. Yeah Yeah, there's there's a

38:09

lot of weird stuff that can

38:11

happen with the hand discount's not

38:13

bad in the stack either because

38:15

you just have a lot of

38:17

stuff that you're generally trying to

38:20

dump anyway and like being able

38:22

to like I'd gotten Like a

38:24

hand discount off of grifta with

38:26

both with both like full-size shutter

38:28

block and insidious in the same

38:30

turn And I had that in

38:32

my Because I didn't have the

38:34

time to play the shutter block,

38:36

but it wasn't as bad having

38:39

both those in the in the

38:41

snapshot because I could just dump

38:43

both of them. I mean, if

38:45

you manage to get the discount

38:47

first and then snapshot, the discount

38:49

will be on the snapshot, which

38:51

is great. Yeah, yeah, that's also

38:53

very good. Yeah, that's kind of

38:55

a very specific situation. But yeah,

38:57

so here, we'll put those notes

39:00

in the show notes in the

39:02

show notes, but I had just

39:04

put the vicious syndicate list from

39:06

today from today. The core, you

39:08

know, 27, 28 cards is pretty

39:10

agreed upon, I would say. Some

39:12

people are hard running hex instead

39:14

of thrall's gift. Depends on whether

39:16

you want that flexibility or not.

39:19

It's mostly being used for hex.

39:21

Yeah, for the mirror. Sometimes you

39:23

need a lightning storm. Right, like

39:25

there are go wide decks still

39:27

in the meta. Like if you,

39:29

there are times when a lightning

39:31

storm is not a terrible thing

39:33

to have available to you. Bloodless

39:35

is not something you're doing particularly

39:37

off in this deck, but you

39:40

could if you especially. that's one

39:42

way to turn medivax into lemonade

39:44

is if you have access to

39:46

a, I mean, that actually sounds

39:48

kind of disgusting when I say

39:50

it that way, but I mean,

39:52

if you have a bunch of

39:54

two twos in the two twos

39:56

live, you can turn those and

39:59

just into face damage and that

40:01

can sometimes end the game, but

40:03

that's not the way you want

40:05

things to be going. But yeah,

40:07

I mean, it's. In general, I

40:09

think what you're trying, it's kind

40:11

of like over-heel priest in a

40:13

way where you're kind of figuring

40:15

out what you want a million

40:17

of. Like, do you want a

40:20

million reigners or do you want

40:22

a million incindeuses? Right? Is it

40:24

cindeuses and CindyI? I don't know.

40:26

We're not doing the plural thing

40:28

again. But you kind of need

40:30

to figure out, like, what do

40:32

you want a million of and

40:34

then plan for that? Because you

40:36

do you do want your hand

40:39

to be small. So you want

40:41

to not have it clogged with

40:43

too much expensive stuff that you're

40:45

going to just get more of

40:47

because then you just get to

40:49

run out of room in your

40:51

hand. And also one other thing

40:53

to keep in mind, there's a

40:55

temptation to hold off on, especially

40:58

if you've already played it in

41:00

Cindius and a triangulate, there's a

41:02

temptation to sometimes hold off on

41:04

the, or not a triangulate, and

41:06

a fizzle. There is a temptation

41:08

to hold off on drawing the

41:10

snapshots, so you can draw some

41:12

of the eruptions, but you kind

41:14

of want to get the snapshot

41:16

into your hand ASAP, because if

41:19

you draw it naturally, then you

41:21

can't triangulate it anymore and you

41:23

can't go infinite. So you do

41:25

kind of need to rip the

41:27

triangulate pretty soon after you fizzle,

41:29

ideally even the same turn. Yeah,

41:31

same turn is safest. Yeah, to

41:33

make sure that you don't accidentally

41:35

draw it, and then one, because

41:38

once you draw it, you're not

41:40

going infinite, you're not going infinite.

41:42

Yeah, I mean, once you've triagulated

41:44

it, then you have more in

41:46

your deck, but that first one

41:48

is really important. I'll tell Terrace

41:50

and our chat is pointing out

41:52

Bloodlust can also give your needle

41:54

rocks or frogs attacked to get

41:56

them off the board and can

41:59

represent surprise leases. And now that

42:01

Vision Syndicate put Thrall's gift instead

42:03

of Hex in their list, people will

42:05

be expecting that maybe there's a

42:07

bloodlust for good and ill. They might

42:10

be playing around it when they shouldn't

42:12

be, but also it won't be as

42:14

big a surprise maybe. But it's easy to

42:16

forget, if you're used to playing around

42:18

Hex, it's easy to forget that that

42:20

Hex is also a bloodlust. So I

42:23

could see opponents. Pretty

42:25

easily missing that we had

42:27

been sort of joking around

42:29

that that this deck so

42:31

if if you enjoy this

42:34

deck Then your doctor

42:36

strange when he goes to

42:38

momu. I've come to bargain

42:40

I've come to bargain You

42:42

cannot do this forever Actually,

42:45

I can't this is how

42:47

things are now You and

42:49

me trapped in this moment?

42:51

See, but that that's how

42:54

The person

42:56

playing the

42:59

shaman deck

43:02

receives the

43:04

deck. If

43:07

you're on

43:09

the opposite

43:12

side, it

43:14

seems a

43:17

little bit

43:19

more like

43:22

this. I'm sorry on his behalf. I

43:24

will tell, I will if it makes

43:26

you feel any better. I did set

43:28

up that clip about an hour before

43:30

the show and that song has been

43:32

bouncing around my head for the past

43:34

hour. So I have been paying for

43:36

that. Just probably not steep enough of

43:38

a price, but you know, it is

43:40

what it is. I'm a priest man.

43:42

I'm immune to suffering anyway. But

43:45

yeah, it's. The mirrors are, you need to

43:47

be prepared to play the mirrors, especially given

43:49

how many people are playing the stack. If

43:51

you are going to cue this, you need

43:53

to be prepared that you're going to have

43:55

to play the mirrors and the mirrors are

43:57

going to take you a minute. So this is. That

44:00

doesn't mean you shouldn't play it.

44:02

Playing a slow deck is not

44:04

necessarily a bad thing to climb

44:06

with. I know I say that

44:09

I know I sound like a

44:11

broken record whenever we talk about

44:13

climbing with a control deck. If

44:15

you can get a good enough

44:17

win rate, it is just as

44:19

good as playing an agro deck

44:21

that you're losing. You're playing more

44:23

games, but you have a lower

44:25

win rate with. But every game

44:27

that you lose hurts your win

44:29

rate that much more because you

44:31

just have fewer games and the

44:33

games take a long time. Even

44:36

when you're not playing against another

44:38

shaman, it can take a while.

44:40

Like I was, I think I

44:42

had like 20 minute games when

44:44

I was playing as the Zurich

44:46

decay, which is not a slow

44:48

deck. Yeah, and I would say,

44:50

if you are facing this like

44:52

me, do not be like me

44:54

and just get caught up in,

44:56

oh well, I can clear this

44:58

and I can push more damage.

45:00

Just like, try and take a

45:03

step back. Do the math, like,

45:05

okay, how much armor are they

45:07

gaining for Starship? Can you beat

45:09

that every turn? Like, you know,

45:11

clearing your board and making a

45:13

big minion. And if the answer

45:15

is no, then just concede and

45:17

save yourself time. Like, it feels

45:19

bad when you're like, you can

45:21

see sort of the steps you

45:23

can take to... to get one

45:25

more turn or to like take

45:27

over. But the fact is just

45:30

if they are in the position

45:32

where they can play a reiner

45:34

every turn or every other turn

45:36

and they are out gaining what

45:38

you can do and you don't

45:40

have a way to win besides

45:42

damage which most things win through

45:44

damage, then it's time to go.

45:46

And yeah, I've definitely spent too

45:48

many times just like letting things

45:50

go longer than I should have.

45:52

because, like, yeah, maybe I can

45:55

impressively get past to the fourth

45:57

reiner. there's going to be a

45:59

fifth and a sixth. So like,

46:01

why bother? Yeah. I mean, if

46:03

you can silence or steal the

46:05

Arconect defense crystals or the piece

46:07

that comes out of the star

46:09

port that gives them seven armor

46:11

when it's launched. Well, those are

46:13

better to steal because like, it's

46:15

tempting to wait to try to

46:17

steal the Starship. But which is,

46:19

yes, it is more armor, but

46:22

also it's the first one. And

46:24

Rainer doesn't care if the star

46:26

ships have died, it only cares

46:28

that they've been launched. So if

46:30

you're, if you allow your opponent

46:32

to launch a star ship that

46:34

has Arconite defense crystals in it,

46:36

that's going to be six or

46:38

12 armor every time they play

46:40

Rainer, which is really hard to

46:42

overcome after a while. So it

46:44

is imperative if you have a

46:46

way to avoid it and some

46:49

decks don't to try to make

46:51

it so that the death rattle,

46:53

that the, the Arconite defense crystal.

46:55

does not die with text on

46:57

its on the on the card.

46:59

Yeah. So if you have a

47:01

hex or a deafen or a

47:03

mine control tech. Yeah or it's

47:05

early or it's early enough that

47:07

you can coax rescue into taking

47:09

it like that those are all

47:11

valid things that you can do.

47:14

And I mean like I was

47:16

beating them occasionally with dessert decay

47:18

just because like you can you

47:20

can sometimes get ahead of them

47:22

like sometimes they'll just drop upside

47:24

down but also. You can sometimes

47:26

set it up such that you

47:28

can steal the things that are

47:30

in the way and just hit

47:32

them for a lot of damage,

47:34

but you need to get a

47:36

lot of infesters and you need

47:38

to not, you need to not

47:41

just leave a naked infester on

47:43

board against that deck either, because

47:45

if they hex it, then you're

47:47

very far behind. So it's not

47:49

generally like you generally want to

47:51

hit an infester with a death

47:53

brow, so like one hex doesn't

47:55

doesn't doesn't wreck you. But just

47:57

like it's very tempting to just

47:59

go like, okay, well, I'm just

48:01

going to go brilbone buccaneer and

48:03

investor and that's. to be enough,

48:05

then they hex it and then

48:08

you're sad. So be aware of

48:10

that when you are playing against

48:12

the shaman. Yeah, and that's true

48:14

for either shaman because the last

48:16

one plays Rawl's Gift too. Yes.

48:18

Yeah. Well, I think that's enough

48:20

of the prison deck. It's not

48:22

exactly a prison deck. It does

48:24

have wind conditions, but yeah, the

48:26

time loop deck. I think Zaka

48:28

was calling the actual prison shaman,

48:30

concede shaman. Yeah, it is. That

48:32

sounds about right. Yeah. We talked

48:35

about that last week. We don't

48:37

need to rehash. But if you

48:39

are more like me, and also

48:41

I think this deck is less

48:43

likely to get, like, we obviously

48:45

don't know what when balance of

48:47

hashes yet, they haven't said anything

48:49

about that yet, but if they

48:51

touch something, it's probably more likely

48:53

to be the infinite fizzle. Although

48:55

it could be both, we don't

48:57

know. But, if you just want

49:00

to hit things, huge tank, Terran

49:02

shaman is the agro one. It

49:04

has a lot of the same

49:06

cards, you're running the Terran package,

49:08

but we got your trusty companion,

49:10

your Gorgen Zormu, your backstage bouncer.

49:12

Siege tank, which is not in

49:14

the other one. You've got one

49:16

horn of the wind lord, just

49:18

because it's more damage, or in

49:20

a pinch it clears something, except

49:22

for not buffed Xerirgs, Xerirgs, ever.

49:24

Keep that in mind. No matter

49:27

how much health they have now,

49:29

they will always become a 3-3

49:31

plus and you will never ever

49:33

kill them with the horn in

49:35

the windlard. It doesn't, it's not

49:37

actually as annoying as it sounds,

49:39

it doesn't, I only had it

49:41

come up once when I was

49:43

playing this deck, but it is,

49:45

and that was because I ordered

49:47

myself wrong. So that was an

49:49

oops emote for sure. But, and

49:51

you've got your Merlech growth in

49:54

and your cactus cutters. So, basically,

49:56

it's a classic recipe at Agrodek.

49:58

You are putting on the maximum

50:00

pressure. you are using taunts mostly

50:02

to force them to trade. Like

50:04

in general with agro, we say

50:06

like make them do the trades for

50:08

you. But in this case, like they

50:11

do literally have to do the trades

50:13

for you because like half your stuff

50:15

has taut. So you're making

50:17

taunts, you're going face hitting

50:20

AOA from like the missile

50:22

pods or from the Starship

50:24

piece that does that so that

50:26

you can keep going face. And then

50:28

you have a lot of different

50:30

types of burst damage to finish.

50:32

You have blood list, but you've

50:34

also got the siege tank. You've

50:36

also got just damage from the

50:39

battle cruisers, like the band's

50:41

shoes, can just add up. And you've

50:43

got Horn and the windlorn. And

50:45

then you can get the battle

50:47

cruisers again with Jim Rayner.

50:49

So you have lots of different

50:51

ways to get burst. If you're

50:53

running, griff, so the BS. List

50:56

from today cut grifta for how

50:58

our haywire Ziliaks Which I can

51:00

definitely see because like we're just

51:02

trying to overrun them I had lots

51:05

of games that were over on like

51:07

five six maybe seven just because I

51:09

Did a little too much damage and

51:12

when they tried to stabilize they

51:14

were a little too low so they died

51:16

It's also it's also a heartstone

51:18

deck in 2025. So it's actually

51:20

illegal to not have Ziliaks in

51:22

the meta list So I got

51:24

just looks at it and goes,

51:27

there's no Ziliaks, this is wrong. So

51:29

I was playing with Grifta and

51:31

you know you can get burst from that

51:33

as well or seal or heel

51:35

once was helpful against a weapon

51:38

rogue. Although as I said before

51:40

generally versus a weapon rogue you're

51:42

just killing them first is the

51:44

plan. Trustee companion we

51:46

do have compared to the Lake

51:48

Menagerie we were playing before the

51:50

mini set. You don't want to

51:52

like trusty on Gorgonzormu or

51:55

on turbulence because you won't

51:57

get anything. But you do have like

51:59

if you... So you have four Merlox

52:01

between the Groshens and the Cactus

52:03

cutters, and then you have a

52:05

lot of mex, because the Terran

52:07

Starship pieces are mex. So those

52:09

are good. And so is a

52:11

CV. So those are good targets

52:13

for Trustee Companion. And you can

52:16

even Trustee Companion, a frog from

52:18

pop-up book, and it will draw

52:20

you backstage bouncer, and Backstage bouncer

52:22

is amazing. I wrote, we definitely

52:24

do have some refill staying power.

52:26

I did have a game where

52:28

I went to turn 15 and

52:30

I almost won, but it was,

52:32

I just, like, I needed my

52:34

reignor in that particular game and

52:36

he did not want to show

52:38

up at all. He was in

52:40

the very bottom five months. Just

52:42

like him, really. Over there when

52:44

you need him. But it is

52:47

finite, unlike the last deck. So

52:49

generally you. Things like taunts and

52:51

hexes are speed bumps, but mostly

52:53

it's a race, including like zirg

52:55

decays. Like you will not match

52:57

their spike, but you are faster

52:59

to get going than they are.

53:01

And it takes them a minute

53:03

to really ramp the zirga. And

53:05

they don't really have taunt. They

53:07

don't heal. And if you're like

53:09

me, they sometimes or like almost

53:11

all the time, they don't draw

53:13

on fester on time. Like I

53:15

was becoming very talented in not

53:18

drawing in Fester. Speaking of your

53:20

mulligan for this, so for the

53:22

stats, the stats for Taran shaman

53:24

currently are a little tricky because

53:26

the decks are close enough in

53:28

cards run, but I guess it's

53:30

too difficult for the stats sites

53:32

to separate them out in the

53:34

overall archetype data, because it would

53:36

be too hard to know for

53:38

sure like what an opponent deck

53:40

was. So I don't know if

53:42

that'll stay true, but that appears

53:44

to be what's happening right now.

53:46

So the overall archetype. data

53:49

can look a

53:51

little weird because

53:53

it'll be like,

53:55

oh, warrior is

53:57

50%, but it's

53:59

not. It is

54:01

favored for infinite

54:03

fizzle and unfavored

54:05

for aggro siege

54:07

tank. So

54:09

what I did for

54:11

stats was look at

54:13

the most popular lists

54:15

with thousands of games

54:18

since the mini set

54:20

on HS replay for

54:22

infinite fizzle and for

54:24

the siege tank one.

54:28

So for the siege tank one

54:30

in turn of the Mulligan,

54:32

you want to keep Starport, Turbulus,

54:34

Grophin, and SCV. Makes sense. Situationally,

54:37

you can keep a liftoff. It's

54:40

also a really good one just because

54:42

it gives you some draw and

54:44

still starts building up your battlecruiser. Trusty

54:46

companion is good if you have

54:48

something to play it with. Gorgonzormu,

54:51

especially if you also have

54:53

like a turn one or

54:55

turn two play. And Missile

54:57

Pod is kind of on

54:59

the edge, but depending on

55:01

what you're facing might be

55:03

a good thing to keep.

55:05

Other stuff mostly not, although,

55:07

you know, as always use

55:09

your own judgment on when

55:11

to do certain things in

55:13

the Mulligan. In terms of

55:15

matchups in general, we're really

55:18

good versus like fast stuff.

55:20

We're very good against weapon

55:22

rogues, Zerg DK, Hunters, including

55:24

Grunter Hunter. That's another place

55:26

where the overall archetype stats

55:28

are misleading, because

55:30

Grunter Hunter is by far

55:32

the worst matchup for infinite fizzle.

55:34

Like by far. If seeing

55:36

a bunch of infinite fizzle and

55:38

it's making you really mad,

55:40

just play Grunter Hunter. Like if

55:43

you look at last three

55:45

days, the Grunter Hunter win rate

55:47

is insanely high because they

55:49

were just farming the spurt of

55:51

infinite fizzle decks. And

55:53

if you look at the last

55:56

day, it has evened out, right?

56:00

it's still I think the top I guess

56:02

this is in top 1k right it's

56:04

still the top deck in top 1k but

56:06

yeah for a while it was just

56:08

ridiculous the the win rate of

56:11

country hunter hunter i think not entirely

56:13

off that match up but a large

56:16

part off that match up it's

56:18

like thirty seventy for the shaman

56:20

it's really bad for the shaman yeah

56:22

it's all tough and and and like

56:24

grander is good against a fair

56:26

number of other things as well Right,

56:29

it's not a one-trick pony

56:31

deck. The siege shake agro shaman,

56:33

though, is like 60-40 into

56:35

the grunter hunter, maybe a

56:38

little worse at higher ranks.

56:40

Overall, the siege shake one

56:42

does drop a little bit at

56:44

higher ranks, but it's still

56:46

quite good at higher ranks.

56:48

So it's very good against

56:51

that. It's good against the

56:53

Zurich Discover hunter. It's

56:55

good against all protest

56:58

decks including hero power

57:00

druid. It's good against

57:02

elemental mage, which is

57:05

actually in general a good

57:07

deck right now. Yeah, elemental mage

57:09

is like the opposite of

57:11

gutter. Well, not the opposite,

57:14

but it's like it's bad

57:16

against the fizzled deck, like

57:18

quite bad, but eats so many

57:21

other things. Yeah. It's interesting

57:23

that like the two.

57:25

Shamandex here have somewhat opposite

57:27

strengths and weaknesses. I

57:30

mean there's certain things that

57:32

they're both good against, like

57:34

they're both pretty good against

57:36

rogues, although the agra one is

57:39

a lot better, like quite a bit

57:41

better against the rogues. But yeah,

57:43

the slower one does better again,

57:45

the slower grinding match-ups because

57:47

they can just outlast, you know,

57:49

you can go essentially infinite, whereas...

57:52

Agro one can't so our

57:54

harder matchups are the hardest

57:57

one is terror warrior but

57:59

it's still like 40-60, like it's

58:01

not terrible. And then we have Dunga

58:03

Jordan Zurg warlock are also unfavored, not

58:05

a ton, but they are unfavored. And

58:08

it's kind of impossible to get exact

58:10

data on the two Terran shamans into

58:12

each other. My guess would be the

58:15

infinite one is probably favored, but I

58:17

definitely did defeat infinite ones with the

58:19

agro one in my own. Way too

58:21

small to draw conclusions from sample size.

58:24

All I can say is it proves

58:26

that it is definitely winnable So the

58:28

slower matchups you have to watch out

58:31

for a little more and just like

58:33

really you are the beat down right

58:35

in the who's the beat down question

58:37

So that's kind of your matchup spread.

58:40

I didn't actually face a dunga druid

58:42

which is kind of remarkable because they're

58:44

they're popular But You know, remember, actually,

58:47

remember for a lot of these things,

58:49

especially the slower things, your AOEs do

58:51

go face through taunts. That last little

58:53

bit of damage can absolutely come. Like,

58:56

make sure that you check on your

58:58

Starship what went into it, see how

59:00

much damage it's going to do, sometimes

59:03

launching is a matter of like, I

59:05

just need that last bit of damage,

59:07

and the launch is what's going to

59:09

do it. And make sure... that you

59:12

pay attention to how much it's going

59:14

to cost. SCV played on the same

59:16

turn as you launch actually gains you

59:19

a manna, comparatively, because like say it

59:21

costs three, but then you play the

59:23

SCV now it costs one, so it's

59:25

a total of two to launch it,

59:28

plus you get a one, plus you

59:30

get a one, three. Yeah. And also

59:32

like, you can roll spell damage totem

59:35

into a pop-up book, that's sometimes relevant

59:37

damage damage, and see if that gets

59:39

you there. Like, remember that that's a

59:41

thing you can do. I mean, that's,

59:44

I think it's been, it's still been

59:46

a thing for a year, right? But

59:48

it's been a while and sometimes people

59:51

forget that spell damage totem can get.

59:53

over the edge or can you know

59:55

turn into a clear if you need

59:57

one with with lightning storm that's also

1:00:00

sometimes relevant yeah it's this is general

1:00:02

you know this is obviously not generally

1:00:04

your planet but occasionally if it's later

1:00:07

in the game you have the mana

1:00:09

despair and it would really be nice

1:00:11

if you had a spell damage totem

1:00:13

just start with the hero power and

1:00:16

find out if you have a spell

1:00:18

damage totem because one quarter of the

1:00:20

time oh you do great they have

1:00:23

a button board full of four held

1:00:25

minions now they don't so 25% of

1:00:27

the time it works every time every

1:00:30

once in a while the hero power

1:00:32

first to find out what you get

1:00:34

is actually correct it can be better

1:00:36

than that too if you already have

1:00:39

totems on board it could be as

1:00:41

high as 50% or I mean 100%

1:00:43

if you have all four totems on

1:00:46

board you're you're something's gone very wrong

1:00:48

but in that deck but if you

1:00:50

if you happen to somehow have three

1:00:52

totems on board then it's 100% but

1:00:55

your odds of rolling spell damage total

1:00:57

get better with every not spelled out

1:00:59

or showing them you have on board.

1:01:02

I had totally forgotten that, but that's

1:01:04

a good point. Yeah, you don't double

1:01:06

roll the same totem unless you already

1:01:08

have all of them. So yeah, that

1:01:11

does potentially affect the calculus there. A

1:01:13

lot of it is thinking about like

1:01:15

when do you want to launch your

1:01:18

battle cruiser? It really depends a lot

1:01:20

on like what's in the battle cruiser,

1:01:22

but when you're deciding like, like, is

1:01:24

it? tempo. Is it like clearing a

1:01:27

board that would otherwise clear my board?

1:01:29

Is it pushing damaged face? If I

1:01:31

wait one turn and I have like

1:01:34

a lot of the deal five damage

1:01:36

to a random enemy, maybe this turn

1:01:38

that wouldn't be very effective, but next

1:01:40

turn it'll hit face hopefully. In general,

1:01:43

like do you like do you want

1:01:45

more starships or one or bigger starships

1:01:47

out of rain or when you play

1:01:50

it? Which also sometimes depends on the

1:01:52

on the on the opponent. Like if

1:01:54

your opponent is very good at single

1:01:56

target or like you're against a decay

1:01:59

and they haven't played rescue yet, then

1:02:01

you may want to go wider than

1:02:03

tall. with the star ships, that's another

1:02:06

thing to consider. Like, because Rainer's going

1:02:08

to launch, do you want Rainer to

1:02:10

launch one big star ship or do

1:02:12

you want it to launch three star

1:02:15

ships? If you've gotten a bunch of

1:02:17

medivacs into the one big star ship,

1:02:19

you may, does it, does the order

1:02:22

in which they died in terms of

1:02:24

the effects? When you launch with a

1:02:26

Rainer, I thought it did, but I

1:02:28

feel like when you shutter walk, sometimes

1:02:31

it gets scrambled. That's not so relevant

1:02:33

for this tempo one, but I've definitely

1:02:35

seen off Rayner, it more likely is

1:02:38

going to end up being mixed up.

1:02:40

Well, I'm also talking about like, do

1:02:42

the starships, does it launch the starships

1:02:44

in the order that you launch them?

1:02:47

Because there's two things, right? There's does

1:02:49

it launch the Starships in the order

1:02:51

you launch them, and then it does

1:02:54

do the pieces trigger in the order

1:02:56

that they originally triggered when you play

1:02:58

Rayner? And I don't know the answer

1:03:00

to that, because I haven't been paying

1:03:03

attention to that, but that's probably a

1:03:05

good thing to know also. I think,

1:03:07

so I'm not 100% sure on this,

1:03:10

and I should have been paying more

1:03:12

attention to it, but I think that

1:03:14

the Starships do launch in the order,

1:03:16

because I mostly went for just more

1:03:19

Starship more Starships, Like I'm not going

1:03:21

to launch a five cost Starship like

1:03:23

ever in this deck. But if it's

1:03:26

one mana, I'll just launch it if

1:03:28

it's good tempo, which if it's one

1:03:30

mana it probably is, even if there's

1:03:33

just two things in it. Because Rayner's

1:03:35

not my plan A necessarily, like my

1:03:37

plan A is that they're already done.

1:03:39

Like it was turned six and they

1:03:42

bloodlested. That's your answer for everything though.

1:03:44

I mean that is. That is my

1:03:46

answer for everything. I mean, it does

1:03:49

also, if you can see that you

1:03:51

are playing for Raynar, then you might

1:03:53

want to slow down a little bit.

1:03:55

but yeah I would say with the

1:03:58

infinite one you want to be a

1:04:00

lot more judicious about when you launch

1:04:02

yeah and getting a really big one

1:04:05

for this one you can as long

1:04:07

as we've gotten a couple discounts gotten

1:04:09

a couple things in there it's it's

1:04:11

gonna be useful right now like just

1:04:14

go for it well and particularly if

1:04:16

it's got medivacs yeah I think that's

1:04:18

that's the difference yeah yeah where it's

1:04:21

just like well I need the missile

1:04:23

pot effect and I'm getting some Marines,

1:04:25

so here's a board deal with it,

1:04:27

right? Yeah, yeah. But in the infinite

1:04:30

version, like if you've gotten a bunch

1:04:32

of medivacs early, you probably want to

1:04:34

hold off as long as you can

1:04:37

on launching that Starship and have it

1:04:39

be like one giant Starship that you're

1:04:41

just going to launch from Raynor repeatedly,

1:04:43

because if you have a lot of

1:04:46

smaller ones and you have a bunch

1:04:48

of medivacs, and if the medivac goes

1:04:50

off first... then those Marines are going

1:04:53

to take up the spots that your

1:04:55

other starships could be taking up. And

1:04:57

so you may not get any more

1:04:59

starships after that, you're just going to

1:05:02

have a bunch of stupid Marines that

1:05:04

you're cursing. Right, plus the board space

1:05:06

is more at a premium, I think,

1:05:09

in the infinite, whereas in the agra

1:05:11

one, yeah, the Marines are great, because

1:05:13

there are more things to bloodlust, and

1:05:15

there are more things for them to

1:05:18

clear, and there more taunts to protect

1:05:20

the stuff that's going face, and... Do,

1:05:22

one thing to keep in mind is

1:05:25

you're ordering when you launch if you

1:05:27

have little Starship pieces that you can

1:05:29

trade off and then launch this turn.

1:05:31

You generally want to trade them off

1:05:34

and then launch, like if you're going

1:05:36

to be trading with anything it should

1:05:38

be the Starship pieces because then those

1:05:41

do something after they've died, essentially. Other

1:05:43

stuff. ideally are not trading unless maybe

1:05:45

it's like oh I did luck on

1:05:47

and then I played Grosven and then

1:05:50

I you know like the rush are

1:05:52

from Grosven trades often but other stuff

1:05:54

should not be trading except for Starship

1:05:57

Pieces usually. One thing that can be

1:05:59

a little bit tricky with weapon ropes

1:06:01

is that they like don't play very

1:06:03

many minions. They do play the

1:06:06

swarthy short sword shiner every

1:06:08

time, but they don't play a lot

1:06:10

of other minions. Sometimes something

1:06:12

they get off stick up. So it

1:06:14

can be a little tricky to

1:06:16

get your Starship minions to die.

1:06:18

You don't always need them to. And

1:06:21

they do have to clear them

1:06:23

eventually. Also it's a little tricky

1:06:25

for your siege tanks. Because

1:06:27

they don't have any minions. So

1:06:29

you don't, they don't have any

1:06:32

targets. But pop-up book is something

1:06:34

that you want for like the

1:06:36

one taunts against a weapon rogue.

1:06:38

And so if you like need to

1:06:41

kill a Viking or a Medevac or

1:06:43

something, you can pop a book your

1:06:45

own Starship piece, right? So you can

1:06:47

launch it. That's true. Yeah. Really

1:06:49

things like that. There are things,

1:06:51

so think about the use of

1:06:53

your pop-up book. You can also,

1:06:55

if you have the Zero One

1:06:58

Taunts, they're really tempted to

1:07:00

kill it for you with fan

1:07:02

of knives. They might not necessarily,

1:07:04

but, because they do only have

1:07:06

one hell. That is one thing

1:07:09

to keep in mind with the

1:07:11

weapon rogue though, is that they won't

1:07:13

just always present your

1:07:15

targets. Pretty much everyone

1:07:18

else plays minions. But... Yeah,

1:07:20

there's not a, there, another, I

1:07:22

guess the last thing I would

1:07:24

say on this is, even the

1:07:26

decks that have lots of health

1:07:28

gain, it's armor. So there's

1:07:30

not a lot of reason

1:07:32

to, like, it's mostly armor, there's

1:07:35

not a lot of reason to,

1:07:37

like, it's mostly armor, there's not

1:07:40

a lot of reason not to

1:07:42

just, like, do your damage

1:07:44

when you have it, even if

1:07:46

it's not like, not have done

1:07:48

anything. That armor was still going to

1:07:51

be there regardless. Or if they have none

1:07:53

of that because they're a weapon rogue

1:07:55

or a grinter hunter, then they're

1:07:57

just close to dying. I had a coaching

1:07:59

with hat early on like and I

1:08:01

said I want to learn agro I

1:08:03

don't know how to play agro. I

1:08:05

had like just come back into the

1:08:08

game and I had never played agro

1:08:10

successfully and he said okay well think

1:08:12

about the times when you lose to

1:08:14

agro why did you lose? Well they

1:08:16

just did a little too much damage

1:08:18

and I couldn't quite stabilize because I

1:08:20

was just a little too low when

1:08:22

I started to and then I died.

1:08:24

He was like yeah do that. Playing

1:08:28

the deck explains the deck, you

1:08:30

know. If you've played other shaman,

1:08:33

if you've played other agradecks, I

1:08:35

think, you know, what deck clicks

1:08:37

with people always depends and can

1:08:40

be hard to predict, but at

1:08:42

least for me, this clicked pretty

1:08:44

quickly. So, give it a try,

1:08:47

especially if you're seeing like the

1:08:49

grunter hunters that are hunting the

1:08:51

infinite fizzles. The only thing I

1:08:54

probably wouldn't, if you're seeing tons

1:08:56

of terror and warrior, that's maybe

1:08:59

a sign that this wouldn't be

1:09:01

the ideal deck, but that's still,

1:09:03

like, you can raise them down

1:09:06

some of the time. It's also

1:09:08

probably a sign that you should

1:09:10

go to bed. I did have

1:09:13

a moment. I was playing yesterday.

1:09:15

Yeah. I

1:09:18

did have a moment yesterday.

1:09:20

I'd been playing a bunch.

1:09:22

I was feeling really good

1:09:24

about it. I like went

1:09:26

like 6-0. And then I

1:09:28

went for a while even.

1:09:30

And then I stopped after,

1:09:32

it was a win, but

1:09:35

I stopped after a game

1:09:37

and I like checked in

1:09:39

with myself and my body

1:09:41

was like, no, we are

1:09:43

so done. Like just off

1:09:45

a cliff, done, don't play

1:09:47

anymore or bad things will

1:09:49

happen. Yeah, and so I

1:09:51

was trying to play the

1:09:53

Sims, but that's how I

1:09:55

ended up, then the mods

1:09:58

didn't work because I had

1:10:00

a patch, and then I

1:10:02

destroyed all the save files

1:10:04

on my computer, except I

1:10:06

didn't, they were just hiding.

1:10:08

And that took a while.

1:10:10

and was not as relaxing

1:10:12

as I was hoping. But

1:10:14

yeah, any final thoughts? No,

1:10:16

I think that about covers

1:10:19

it. Short, short episode. We

1:10:21

haven't finished yet. Don't chinks

1:10:23

it. Oh, oh, oh. Just

1:10:25

a really long coin conceits.

1:10:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, we have

1:10:29

many folks we'd like to

1:10:31

thank. Check it or thanks

1:10:33

section on the website at

1:10:35

Queenie.com, where you can also

1:10:37

find our contact could tell

1:10:40

or show notes in our

1:10:42

patronitarian information. You can monetarily

1:10:44

sport our show at patreon.com/coin

1:10:46

concede. Join us every reply

1:10:48

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at twitch.com. Join our community

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1:10:54

Then write into our email

1:10:56

at coin concede at gmail.

1:10:58

Follow us on blue sky

1:11:00

at coin concede. And if

1:11:03

you'd like some C.c. swag,

1:11:05

head on over shop at

1:11:07

shop. coin concede. I think

1:11:09

I... I had mentioned, well

1:11:11

I know I mentioned his,

1:11:13

he had to go fund

1:11:15

me a couple months ago,

1:11:17

I mentioned that he had

1:11:19

to go fund me for

1:11:21

a new van to help

1:11:24

him, you know, get around

1:11:26

and he's been having a

1:11:28

number of health problems particularly

1:11:30

with his kidneys and he

1:11:32

has not been at the

1:11:34

game store for the last

1:11:36

couple of weeks and turns

1:11:38

out he's in the hospital.

1:11:40

So. I'm hoping that he,

1:11:42

whatever's going on, he's going

1:11:44

to get better from and

1:11:47

he'll be back annihilating my

1:11:49

stupid deck soon. But, you

1:11:51

know, I was definitely worried

1:11:53

when it was the second

1:11:55

week in a row that

1:11:57

I hadn't seen him because

1:11:59

he usually doesn't miss more

1:12:01

than a week in a

1:12:03

row. And then I found

1:12:05

out, yeah, he's not doing

1:12:08

so well. So I'm thinking

1:12:10

of you, Bud, and hopefully

1:12:12

you're going to be back

1:12:14

back soon. Guess what? First

1:12:16

I will concede to my

1:12:18

husband for nagging me about

1:12:20

fluids for the whole week

1:12:22

and... Just really doing a

1:12:24

good job helping take care

1:12:26

of me making sure we

1:12:28

had soup and other good

1:12:31

food and I was getting

1:12:33

sleep and That just in

1:12:35

general being a mench And

1:12:37

then also going concede to

1:12:39

Leo the designer for some

1:12:41

fun streams and I put

1:12:43

his twitch at the top

1:12:45

of the show notes by

1:12:47

the way if you want

1:12:49

to go give him a

1:12:52

follow I he doesn't necessarily

1:12:54

stream all the time but

1:12:56

but when he does it's

1:12:58

it's quite fun and he

1:13:00

usually announces it like on

1:13:02

blue sky if you want

1:13:04

to see when that's happening

1:13:06

well I am I feel

1:13:08

like we do this every

1:13:10

so often with some frequency

1:13:13

but going to concede to

1:13:15

our coaching for the month

1:13:17

for being patient with I

1:13:19

think yeah myself and both

1:13:21

of you you know it

1:13:23

has been especially me you

1:13:25

know, life stuff, but also

1:13:27

United States stuff, like we're

1:13:29

just, our minds are, are

1:13:31

not fully in gear. So

1:13:33

I thank you for your

1:13:36

patience with those. Yeah. But

1:13:38

yeah, so that's gonna do

1:13:40

it for us. So until

1:13:42

next week, keep calm and

1:13:44

ship it. And if you

1:13:46

see us on ladder. Quinn

1:13:48

concede. Quinn concede. All life

1:13:50

must have. I yield. For

1:13:52

now. I yield. For now.

1:13:54

I consume. This

1:13:59

is a lot. The

1:14:02

is yours. is

1:14:06

have bested

1:14:08

me. You have

1:14:11

I give

1:14:13

up. in it.

1:14:15

I'll You

1:14:17

win up. You win

1:14:19

You win

1:14:21

this

1:14:24

time. it. You

1:14:26

will. This time.