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0:23

In February 1983,

0:25

US soldier Manuel Atsaga

0:27

was sent to a mysterious posting in

0:29

the British zone in the north of

0:31

West Germany, a long way away from

0:34

the main US forces in southern Germany.

0:38

After a lengthy journey, he's picked up by

0:40

a German private and eventually arrives

0:43

at the 81st US Army

0:45

Field Artillery Detachment, where his mission

0:47

is to guard, assemble and

0:49

deliver low-yield nuclear

0:52

artillery rounds to the West German

0:54

army. He describes how

0:56

the rounds were assembled, as well as the orders

0:59

in the event of unauthorised intruders

1:01

and much more.

1:04

Being stationed in the British zone, Manuel

1:06

also tells us about the love-hate relationship

1:09

with the British, where they would fight,

1:11

make up, drink and fight again.

1:14

You can catch up with Manuel's two

1:17

other episodes with me via the links

1:19

in the episode information. I'm

1:23

delighted to welcome Manuel to

1:25

our Cold War Conversation.

1:29

So you go back to

1:31

Fort Riley, but then you get offered

1:33

a... well,

1:36

you weren't offered, you were given

1:38

orders to return back to Germany.

1:41

We got back sometime mid-October 1982,

1:44

and we got a few days off, and

1:47

that was nice. And then we went back to our

1:49

daily routine, which is basically, you know,

1:51

you get up, you do PT in the morning, you go to chow,

1:54

you have inspection,

1:55

you have training for the day, or you go to the motor

1:57

pool, work on your vehicles. And

2:00

I remember being called out to

2:02

the BC's office, the battery commander,

2:04

and

2:05

I was like, oh man, what

2:07

did I do?

2:10

And I reported, sir,

2:14

Specials are reporting his order, and he's,

2:17

well, you're going back to Germany. Oh no, he said,

2:19

did you like Germany? I know you did. He

2:22

told me that because I did.

2:23

And I said, yes, sir, absolutely. So

2:26

guess what? You're going back. He

2:29

said, yeah. And he had me in my orders.

2:31

I had like, I think it was a four month notice. So

2:33

he used to give you four months or more. If you were

2:35

married, it'd give you more of

2:38

a

2:39

advance notice. But I was single and

2:42

enlisted in a lower rank. So

2:45

I think it was like three or four months, and then

2:47

you ship out. So it

2:49

must have been around Super

2:51

Bowl time of 1983 that I went home on leave

2:53

for about

2:58

two to three weeks. And

3:00

then I flew via commercial

3:03

airlines from Los Angeles

3:05

to St. Louis. And then

3:07

they told me at St. Louis, when I showed them

3:09

my orders, they had to be in uniform. And

3:11

they got really mad.

3:13

And I'm like, what? Yeah, I should

3:16

have better go back and put on you.

3:18

So I had to dig out my backpack, my doppel

3:20

bag, and I put on my uniform.

3:23

And then it was a chartered

3:26

commercial flight from St.

3:28

Louis to Philadelphia

3:30

to ride

3:31

mine again, or somewhere in Frankfurt.

3:34

And then we were bused. And this was all individual

3:36

soldiers with orders. And

3:39

I got back to ride mine

3:42

probably in

3:43

February or March of 83. And

3:47

this time I was going to be assigned there.

3:49

And back in those days, it was

3:52

at least a two-year tour, I think, 18 months,

3:54

two years, if you were single private.

3:57

And I was fine with that.

4:00

So I got there, went through the whole process.

4:05

They asked me one day if I had

4:07

any problems working with nukes.

4:10

And this was a 21st replacement detachment

4:13

in Frankfurt.

4:14

And I'm like, no, okay.

4:18

So maybe a little bit later they cut

4:20

me my orders and said, you're going up north.

4:23

That question, have you got

4:26

any problem working with nukes? Were

4:28

they asking whether you had any

4:30

problems ideologically

4:33

there?

4:33

Or

4:35

what was that question?

4:38

Okay, let me remember.

4:42

I think it was more like if I had any kind

4:44

of philosophical disagreements with the use

4:46

of nuclear weapons or nuclear

4:48

energy at the time, because that

4:52

was a big thing in America.

4:54

No nukes, we don't want nuclear energy. That's

4:57

wrong. I didn't care.

4:59

I was 19 or 20 by now and I didn't

5:01

care. And I should know, but

5:05

it didn't make sense to me

5:07

until they came in orders and said that

5:10

I was going to go up north

5:12

and I was going to be assigned to a nuclear

5:14

unit. Yeah, it

5:16

was an interesting question because the

5:19

impression I get, I've never been in the

5:21

army, as you can tell. But

5:23

I would have been- I have no idea. You know more about it than

5:25

I do.

5:27

I just read rather

5:29

dull books a lot. The

5:32

impression I get is in the army, you're

5:34

just told where to go. You don't question

5:36

it and you're not offered an option. It's

5:39

sort of like, we need you to go to this place

5:41

and do this job. So that's why I'm

5:43

surprised about being asked whether you

5:45

had an objection to nuclear weapons. But I

5:48

think you've explained it well that there

5:50

was a lot of noise at that time,

5:52

both in Europe and in the US

5:55

about nuclear energy. Cause it was Three

5:57

Mile Island, wasn't it? During the 80s.

5:59

And then I think about some other

6:02

person's being deployed.

6:03

Yeah and crews in the UK Right,

6:07

right. I think I think when

6:09

you were letting me know before you get you you're

6:12

taken to Frankfurt train

6:14

station on you

6:16

It was a ship update

6:18

and we had a formation a muster and

6:21

then you know cement He always calling out your name

6:23

checking your order. She'll say get on that bus

6:25

or get on that T

6:27

or wait right here and They're

6:30

all mentioning places that have

6:32

the units and they're being picked up and they're

6:34

moving on and they call my name

6:37

and it was only seven a

6:39

big big guy and

6:43

He said are you all Zayka? And

6:46

I'm out the balls to correct

6:48

him,

6:49

you know, my last name is on saga. I said,

6:52

yes, Sergeant

6:53

You wait right here

6:55

Yes, sergeant, so I'm waiting right there. I don't

6:57

know maybe 20 minutes

7:00

And he said well, we're taking you to the train

7:02

station your units up north

7:05

There's no one here to come get you Like

7:08

what

7:09

the sick, okay So I it was

7:12

a little bad just you know some

7:14

private get on We're

7:17

going train station, you know smoking serious

7:19

smoking and joking And

7:21

he says good luck Okay. Thank

7:23

you. So here I am maybe 19 or 20

7:26

years old in Frankfurt station train

7:28

station

7:29

Hustle and bustle. I mean you hear all

7:31

kinds of languages. He's a lot of military people So

7:34

and there's signs everywhere at the time, you

7:36

know us military personnel report bubble

7:38

boss. So I go to this little like office

7:41

and I show my orders and And

7:44

there were I think also operated by by

7:46

German civilians. They're the very nice Would

7:49

you like some coffee would you like a donut? Well,

7:52

you can on track so-and-so and your trainees

7:54

at this time and don't forget to set

7:56

your watch We're on such a such

7:58

a time That's okay

7:59

Okay, so I got on the train, never been

8:02

on a train in my life, not

8:05

even in California.

8:06

And the train is, this

8:09

is maybe the afternoon,

8:10

is going up north.

8:14

And I'll remember seeing Mepin train

8:16

station.

8:17

And I didn't have a map, and I couldn't

8:19

Google it, obviously, or use a Google Earth.

8:22

So like, cool, cool. But

8:24

I just remember

8:25

standing up and

8:28

smoking a cigarette and looking out the windows,

8:30

and just seeing like the Rhine River and the castles.

8:33

I remember going through a bunch

8:35

of little villages and stopping and,

8:38

you know, people go boarding and most

8:40

of them very nice. And

8:42

it was starting to get late.

8:44

And I was still on that train. And

8:46

then I realized like,

8:48

God, I'm the only American on here. And

8:51

that was pretty much the case, but it didn't dawn on me until

8:53

I made it five or six hours later.

8:55

And then I remember clearly writing down

8:58

where else to get off. So I got off in a little

9:01

village

9:01

called Mepin, M-E-P-P-E-N,

9:05

which is way up north,

9:08

close probably to the Dutch border. And

9:11

I got off. And I'm already

9:13

thinking, okay, there's signs here that must say, US personnel

9:17

call this number like

9:19

all the big bases do, even

9:21

back in those days.

9:23

And I'm literally there by myself. It's

9:25

cold. And I guess it just snowed.

9:28

And I didn't have anybody

9:30

to call. They didn't give me any numbers, nothing. And

9:33

the train station was closed at the time. I remember there

9:35

was like,

9:36

it was at 10 PM, the Barnhouse closed,

9:38

but there was, you know, chances to arrive back and forth,

9:41

like the concessions, the ticket office

9:43

closed.

9:44

And I'm starting to get nervous. I'm

9:48

sitting there. I don't know who to call. Even

9:50

if I did, I mean, I have,

9:52

I don't know how to use those day phones over there.

9:56

So maybe,

9:57

maybe an hour later.

9:59

This gray, funny looking vehicle,

10:02

they

10:03

were called safaris in

10:06

America, made by Volkswagen back

10:08

in the 70s, early 80s. Well,

10:10

it's gray and it's got the Boonestere

10:13

logo and a guy

10:15

with a red beret comes out and

10:18

a broken English. So I

10:20

said, best one of many times so gotten

10:23

to must make mirrors yet come and bid

10:25

to. You know, and I'm like, what? I

10:28

understood a bit. And

10:31

he said, you American soldier must come

10:33

with me like, no, I'm

10:35

American. I'm waiting for the American chief.

10:38

He's going 9 9 9. He

10:40

said, you know, I'm here

10:42

to pick you up. I'm your driver. And

10:46

why not our choice? So I

10:49

said,

10:50

OK, OK, I do my double

10:53

bag in the back and,

10:55

you know, I offer them a cigarette. And

10:57

I was hoping, you know,

10:58

it wasn't very religious at the time, but I'm praying I'm

11:00

going to the right place or I'm not going to get in trouble. I

11:02

don't want to be kind of AWOL. That was my biggest fear. Yeah.

11:05

If I was AWOL.

11:07

So, you know, he starts talking. Yeah, yeah,

11:09

you come with us. We have American soldiers. So

11:11

I started feeling at ease. And it's, I think late

11:14

at night, a beautiful

11:16

country. So I used to, you know, the reflection of

11:18

the moon on the rivers.

11:20

Like I said, I just fell in love with Germany right away

11:22

and the people and the culture and the food.

11:26

And maybe about two hours later, we got to a little

11:28

town. We passed a lot of towns on the way and

11:31

we got to a place called Duolmen, which

11:33

was is in

11:37

the British sector at the time. It

11:39

was just west of Moonster

11:42

and north of Essen, part

11:45

of the British Corps, North Ag, Northern

11:48

Army Group. We passed a British

11:51

base,

11:52

but I was going maybe 15

11:54

kilometers down

11:57

the road to the German base

11:59

and it was a German base.

11:59

German army base, Santa Barbara,

12:02

Caserne,

12:03

Saint-Barber, the patron saint

12:05

of artillery. I didn't know it at the time.

12:07

I didn't even know artillery had a patron saint,

12:09

to be fair.

12:11

Yeah, so

12:13

they checked my ID, and I saw the American

12:16

flag there, so I found more Ds, and they

12:18

had a German flag that, no, it was

12:20

clear that it was the western flag at the time. And

12:23

then we go down the

12:25

base, make a few turns on the American

12:27

flag. I think they were taking it down,

12:30

or it was lit up or something, but I saw the American flag

12:32

and I fell happy. And

12:35

I got to what was called the

12:37

A-First Use of Fads, United

12:40

States Fuel Artillery Detachments.

12:43

And I wasn't too sure what was

12:46

going on. I thought there was a mistake. Until

12:48

the following morning, I mean, they fed me chow, and

12:51

I bunked down there, like, in the day room, because there was

12:53

an immune sign for me. I came in so late. But

12:56

the following morning, the first art agreed

12:58

to me. It was very nice, very casual, actually.

13:00

He told me what our mission was, that

13:03

we were supposed to assemble,

13:07

safeguard, and deliver low-yield

13:10

nuclear rounds to the German army. And I believe

13:12

it was through the 5th or the 7th German Army

13:14

Artillery Regiment. I have the little emblem

13:17

in

13:19

my memory box, but I can't remember the

13:21

namah picture of the unit. And

13:24

that was our job. And when

13:26

we weren't doing that, we were to guard

13:28

the nukes downrange. And

13:30

so we had a site away from the base,

13:33

and it's a little old.

13:36

It looks like a dirt mound, basically, with

13:39

big steel metal doors, and that's where the rounds

13:41

were kept.

13:42

And they were...

13:44

And you know what? I can't remember all

13:46

the details, even if I wanted to, because it was all secret

13:48

at the time. But that was our

13:51

mission. And I'm like, oh, well, that's

13:53

why they asked me that question. So

13:56

there I was in Germany for the second time. And...

13:59

It wasn't what I expected. I thought I was going to go

14:02

to a regular line unit, you know, with

14:05

an American

14:07

Baccallion or division, but

14:10

I've made the mistake or maybe not the mistake looking

14:12

back Saying I don't care.

14:14

I'll work with nukes. This is an

14:17

unusual role and when when you say

14:20

Assemble

14:21

I'm imagining that a regular artillery

14:24

round has Explosive

14:26

in it. So a nuclear artillery

14:28

round has to be put together

14:31

differently

14:32

Yes

14:34

Exactly a conventional artillery

14:36

round is pretty much already packed

14:39

and made for you I got just put

14:40

take the cardboard and the wood

14:43

packings off of it take

14:45

off the cap

14:46

like with an Allen wrench and screw

14:49

on the fuse and set the fuse to

14:51

whatever time or

14:52

or Designation and you school

14:55

off on yeah, and then you

14:57

put a fuse bag and you cut it

14:59

put it behind there and you're done But

15:02

what I came to find out was nuclear artillery

15:04

rounds at least low yields

15:07

nuclear artillery rounds came

15:09

in different pieces and

15:12

I

15:13

I was trying to remember the other day and

15:15

maybe the FBI is gonna show up my door tomorrow

15:18

or something But after the lack of I can't remember

15:21

it was in parts and they were

15:23

boxed

15:24

Separately like these big ugly metal containers

15:27

and there was a humidifier in there

15:30

And they read through the temperature and they

15:32

were sealed

15:35

And there was a process it

15:37

was called

15:39

Tech ops technical operations

15:42

Where basically you did everything by

15:44

the book with somebody there with you at all times

15:47

and it was like a two-man check To

15:50

double check you you double check him vice

15:52

versa. And if I

15:54

recall

15:56

the pieces or how some different

15:58

bunkers And

16:00

then

16:01

when we simulate it, because we never actually built

16:03

the live rounds, nuclear round, when I

16:05

was there,

16:07

I left there in 85,

16:10

we would simulate, but we did get to actually see them

16:12

and we did work with them. We had to actually check the temperatures

16:14

and make sure everything was locked up and sealed.

16:17

We had to do maintenance checks on them. And they were

16:20

just big, ugly, olive-drab containers

16:22

and they were housed separately, like

16:25

maybe they were on three or four pieces and then

16:27

the fuse. And then once

16:29

it was built,

16:30

an officer was combined and

16:32

signed it over to the German officer

16:36

and then

16:37

they pop one off over the border maybe.

16:40

But that was the process. The

16:42

tech ops, again

16:44

Ian, please accept my apologies, I don't remember. No,

16:47

and I absolutely appreciate that. I mean, I'm

16:50

asking for a stupid level of data.

16:52

It's just that I'm fascinated because

16:55

I'd heard of nuclear artillery rounds,

16:58

but I don't know what they are.

17:01

I don't

17:02

know how they work

17:05

or differ. Obviously, there's a bigger

17:07

bang and a lot more damage. Yeah,

17:10

most of our days are training on them or

17:12

doing maintenance in and around them in addition

17:16

to the regular infantry type training because we're

17:18

supposed to guard them. So the emphasis was also

17:20

on infantry training, marksmanship and stuff. But

17:23

I recall they came in different

17:25

containers and

17:27

there was a very specific process

17:30

of how to build it and how to check it.

17:34

And there was no room for error. There

17:36

was somebody always there, even if it was a practice.

17:39

And there was a very clear procedure

17:42

set in place to the release of the nuclear

17:44

round. And again,

17:46

I'm

17:47

a little older now, maybe I'm

17:50

a specialist by now, so I'm

17:52

a little more in tune to what's going on, a little more experience.

17:55

But

17:56

I also remember this.

17:58

We

18:01

were going to use

18:04

nuclear

18:06

low yield rounds first in the event

18:09

Warsaw Pact came across the folded

18:11

gap or the northern plains.

18:14

That was our focus. The northern plains are on

18:16

Hanover, just for

18:18

flat land. There was no

18:20

bones about that. We're always

18:22

told that. It's like, we're going to be overrun.

18:25

We will be using nukes first. I

18:27

don't know if that's news

18:30

to anybody or

18:33

in contradiction of a protocol,

18:36

but the way I think our

18:38

mentality was,

18:40

by the time we react

18:42

to an invasion, it's going

18:45

to be a lot of people dead already. The

18:48

reef war in Georgia, that takes 12, 18 hours

18:50

to at least get you from your

18:52

bases in America to the

18:54

actual battlefield in Germany. I

18:57

remember that being made very clear that

19:00

we would be the first to use if we had to to

19:03

stop an invasion.

19:04

That was a sobering

19:07

feeling that we would

19:10

be doing that. We trained

19:12

on that. At the same

19:14

time, technology was also changing.

19:18

They were talking about, well, these are out of date. We

19:21

have the Persians coming in. We have all

19:23

this other

19:24

stuff

19:25

being in the works. But you still

19:28

had to train on it. And if there was going to

19:30

be some kind of transition, that would

19:32

train us on that.

19:33

But it was all very primitive, looking

19:35

back, all that equipment.

19:37

Even the communication was very primitive.

19:41

So that's what I recall about nuclear

19:43

artillery pieces. They were there. We

19:46

had them in country.

19:47

And people knew it.

19:49

And this was the 155 millimeter shell?

19:52

Yes, 155, the M109. It

19:56

was that artillery piece. And also,

19:59

the bigger one, the A-1.

19:59

inch for the M110. And

20:02

the Germans had the same artillery

20:04

pieces. They had better tanks, I thought.

20:06

That's a different discussion because I

20:09

heard some of your

20:11

podcasts on armor, which I find fascinating.

20:14

But in terms of artillery, the German, the Buddhist

20:17

here, they had the same ones we did. They

20:18

had the M110 and the M109,

20:22

and

20:24

they were interchangeable. So I think

20:26

that was also part of a plan, you know, we can interchange

20:28

equipment and ammunition

20:31

if we had to.

20:33

I've just done a quick search on the internet,

20:35

which is not always a good thing. And

20:38

it looks like the yield

20:40

on them was around one kiloton.

20:44

I don't remember. No, don't worry

20:46

about that. And also there was a

20:48

mode where it could be used

20:51

with enhanced radiation, which was popularly

20:54

known as the neutron bomb.

20:56

Yeah. As well. So don't

20:59

worry. I know it's a long time back.

21:01

You were saying to me that

21:03

everybody around there knew

21:05

that

21:06

you had nuclear weapons

21:09

in that base. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. In

21:12

fact, like I was saying,

21:14

I was in a village, a little

21:16

town called Doolman, and the British

21:19

were, I think on

21:21

the east side, was their camp. And

21:24

we were in the German Kessern. And then

21:27

downrange,

21:28

maybe 20

21:31

kilometers in a beautiful

21:33

deep forest was the actual

21:37

storage bunkers. So we would commute

21:40

back and forth like on 24 hour shifts

21:43

to guard those nukes with the Germans. We

21:45

were internal. The Germans were there basically

21:49

in charge,

21:51

if you will. But we were

21:53

there to monitor them. And to

21:55

go back to your question,

21:58

we saw protests outside the gate. And

22:01

it was really funny because, you

22:03

know, me and my buddies, we would know some of these people from

22:05

the pubs and the gas houses that

22:07

we were having each other.

22:09

You know, and then

22:12

we'd go downtown because

22:13

we had a lot of free time

22:15

when I was there. And I remember

22:19

people asking us like, what's down there? And

22:21

we're supposed to say nothing. And

22:23

I remember one time getting drunk and

22:26

saying to somebody who we thought was a spy, we didn't

22:28

know. I mean, we didn't know

22:30

the guy. We said, yeah, we have 400 five-sig

22:34

springers in Taserne.

22:38

I said,

22:40

we have 400 airborne Rangers stationed

22:43

there, ready to go. And that was the

22:45

farthest thing from the truth. And he took it seriously. I

22:47

mean, my buddy, we reported that. We called that

22:49

little number. We pulled our first sergeant.

22:52

It's like, oh, this guy

22:54

at Stupid All-Zagas told them that

22:56

we had 400. He was lying. And

23:00

first I said, well, at least he told a good lie because that's

23:02

the farthest thing from the truth. But,

23:04

yeah, they knew it was out there. How?

23:06

Who knows? We were tight-lipped about it.

23:09

But they knew we had nukes. And they

23:11

didn't know probably exactly which kind. I'm thinking

23:13

they did the map. There's an artillery unit here.

23:16

There's a bunker downrange. Go figure.

23:19

But they knew we had something. And

23:21

I remember getting protests. And we had to go on extra

23:24

guard duty because the Persians were coming in. Not

23:27

to our location. We had no idea where they were going.

23:30

But there were protests out there that we had Persians.

23:33

And we were to say nothing.

23:34

Luckily, I didn't get written up for being

23:37

a dumbass. But

23:39

it was like the worst kept secret in that town

23:42

that was nukes there. Yeah. Well,

23:44

it was probably, it's unusual

23:46

to have a US artillery detachment

23:49

so far away from the rest of the US Army

23:51

as well. Right.

23:54

And there was maybe 30 of us Americans.

23:59

And like I said, I'm not sure.

23:59

I've been just here shitted is really good. You know,

24:02

I still keep in touch with a couple of those guys via Facebook

24:05

Which is kind of cool,

24:06

but you know, we reminisce I'm

24:10

looking for some Bundesliga people to interview

24:12

so

24:13

You know, I

24:14

can probably put you in touch with a buddy of mine. I'd

24:17

be interested in in Doing

24:20

that

24:21

you said you were on guard duty.

24:23

I mean, what were your instructions as

24:25

far as if you had

24:27

intruders

24:29

Right there was different

24:32

perimeters That were set

24:34

up to guard nukes We

24:37

were in their channel perimeter, which means we

24:39

had the keys and access

24:41

to the actual bunkers No one else did and

24:44

that was I think it was called perimeter a

24:46

or inner perimeter and there

24:48

was a middle perimeter which is like two fences

24:51

and the bonus your

24:53

tubes and watch that and They

24:55

say within the fences and

24:58

then the police side

25:00

and they weren't there But

25:01

the plan was if something did go down and it did

25:04

the police had because they'd be on the outside of the

25:06

fence our mission Was

25:09

basically if anybody came

25:12

in That had no

25:14

authorization and we had names of all the German

25:16

soldiers and it had it

25:18

was like this old revolving door System

25:21

that you had to open and close electronically

25:24

and If anybody

25:26

was in there were supposed to shoot to kill and

25:29

we did have live ammunition for that In fact,

25:31

we do the ammo count like every morning we used for

25:33

Stover or when you were relieved duty We

25:38

did have live ammunition and the Germans had their

25:41

I think was a G3 rifle beautiful rifle

25:44

And we had the m16 alpha 2 We

25:47

also had the m203 grenade launcher but

25:50

it was very clear and it was all well lit and If

25:53

someone was supposed to go in the perimeter that

25:55

journey was supposed to let us know first like, you

25:58

know some maintenance or maintenance workers,

26:00

there were civilian maintenance workers that would come in from

26:02

the day and do the plumbing

26:04

and multiple lawns. It

26:07

was really wild. But that

26:09

happened to the daytime. But then when we

26:11

stand down, nobody went in

26:13

there, only American troops, we have to go there

26:15

like, oh, God, I don't know

26:17

what it was, every 30 minutes, two

26:20

of us would have to put on

26:22

our flak

26:24

vests, our helmets and

26:26

live ammo

26:27

on safety. And we'd have to check

26:29

the doors and check the perimeter every

26:31

hour or 30 minutes, something like that. So

26:35

we did it in shifts. And I think there was maybe three

26:37

or four of us, it was NCO in charge, who

26:39

did the radios, telephones and had access to

26:41

all the doors. And then we would

26:44

do, we'd check, we'd do the rounds, basically,

26:47

check the rounds on the rounds. And

26:49

our mission was very clear. If

26:52

anybody was in there, we were

26:54

supposed to shoot them. But of course,

26:56

then they would say, well, you have to communicate

26:59

and it was very clear protocol with the bonus here.

27:02

Like in a we're gonna have three troops, here's our IDs, they're

27:04

gonna go in there and they're gonna rake leaves,

27:06

or they're gonna do some maintenance

27:09

on the side of the bunker. But we would have to

27:11

go with them. So it

27:13

was always like, if someone

27:15

was out there alone, we're to shoot them. And

27:17

the funny thing was, well, maybe not funny

27:19

then, but there was a lot of wild rabbits.

27:23

And they'd pop up their little heads and run around.

27:25

And you freak out if you want to shoot them. But

27:28

you know, the project who had more experience, they know, relax,

27:30

relax, last private got

27:33

under control. Don't belong

27:36

to it. Don't go, you shoot it. So

27:39

so yeah, it was pretty clear. And there

27:42

was also this plan

27:44

that if we were under an actual attack,

27:47

and it was not a simulation, we're supposed

27:50

to call, you know, the

27:52

tower. And they

27:55

were supposed to dispatch like an elite unit, I don't

27:57

know if this is true or not, but there was come in. parachute

28:00

in and save the day. I don't

28:02

know if that was true. Maybe the Bunderserk guys

28:04

could tell you more about that. But you know, I thought

28:07

it was fascinating. I never saw that. But I thought

28:09

it was a cool concept. So

28:11

yeah, our immersion was pretty simple. If you're

28:13

not building it, you guard it. And if someone

28:15

doesn't belong in there, you shoot. But then

28:17

it got more political. Well, if

28:19

you shoot, you got to have a password. One

28:22

of them is in clothing while you shoot. But then

28:25

you ask for a password. And, you know,

28:29

luckily, we didn't have anyone breach the perimeter. We just

28:31

had protesters outside. And they were pretty friendly,

28:33

for the most part, maybe a few through rocks, I don't

28:35

know. But we never had our perimeter

28:37

breached while I was there. So we

28:39

didn't have to shoot anybody. That's

28:43

good. So how did you get on with

28:45

your British friends up the road? Wow,

28:50

that was a love hate relationship. And when

28:52

I got there, there was always tension. And

28:56

not tension at the level of the government

28:59

or the higher ranks of the officers. But here's

29:01

what would happen. We'd go

29:03

to the pubs and the discos, and we'd fight

29:06

over girls. And,

29:08

you know, that that was always an ongoing

29:10

thing. And it was kind of funny, because

29:12

looking back, you

29:14

know, after we fought, we'd have a beer, or

29:17

I might here have a faggot.

29:19

And let me buy you the next round, or vice

29:21

versa. And we would fight

29:23

over stupid things, especially girls

29:25

or fraud lines, you know, they would just mess this all

29:29

up. In terms

29:31

of like actual, I hate

29:33

you kind of thing, that did not happen.

29:36

But there was a lot of little pay fights. And then the, you

29:38

know, the

29:39

British police would be called

29:41

on

29:42

us.

29:44

And we didn't have any MPs up there. So we kind of thought

29:46

we had it made until we met by

29:49

the Royal Police. I don't know what they were called, but

29:51

you know, the Royal Military Police.

29:53

Yeah,

29:54

well, they said it would

29:56

show us no pity, you know, they whacked

29:58

us upside the head and take us to our first. sergeant

30:00

and that's all it was to it. They wouldn't go as a jail

30:02

or anything. But it was more of a love-hate

30:05

stupid little thing. And we tried to do things.

30:07

Our battery commander,

30:12

he was a captain. I forgot

30:15

his name. But he married an English

30:17

girl whose father was

30:19

an officer down the road at that concern

30:22

at the base, British base. So

30:24

he was always trying to smooth things over like we'd have

30:26

a soccer game and then have a beer call.

30:28

And those things were fun. It was

30:31

just a stupid private sit fight over

30:33

girls. That was really it.

30:35

I remember we would

30:36

bash each other either just intentionally

30:39

or just for fun. But

30:42

sometimes we would fight over

30:44

stupid things. We would

30:46

say things that were very inappropriate about the queen

30:48

and they would say things very inappropriate

30:50

about Reagan or

30:53

our moms. So hence a fight

30:55

would break down. And then

30:57

it had to, here's the funny thing. It would have to be

30:59

fast or outside because

31:02

of the police. I was called then you were really

31:04

in deep. We usually find the bathrooms

31:07

or outside and

31:09

the following day, if you

31:11

went downtown and you saw the guy, you just said nothing

31:15

or you got on with it. And

31:17

again, I'm a big heavy metal fan. So I'd always be talking

31:19

to the British troops about metal.

31:22

And well, I don't listen to that mate. And I

31:24

thought, well, all of these people have to listen to heavy metal.

31:27

Judas Priest and Black Savage, they're all from, you

31:30

know, UFO, they're all from England. So

31:32

I found a few core friends. And

31:35

it was funny because some of them were back in the Falklands and I

31:37

would have those discussions with them. But

31:39

I always made that connection

31:41

with the British troops, like, you know, the

31:43

metal bands. And then we'd go to Dortmund

31:45

to go see Iron

31:46

Maiden

31:48

and have a beer and then get back on the train.

31:51

There was one guy, I forgot his name, but we

31:53

became pretty good friends. And he wrote for me for many

31:56

years, hopefully as well and

31:58

alive and happy. But it

32:01

was more angst

32:05

of youth and

32:07

hormones rage in. And

32:10

I admit, those fraud lines, they used

32:12

to play us. Well,

32:14

I don't think that's changed down the years, to

32:17

be honest.

32:20

That's classic

32:22

military history, I would say. Hello,

32:27

I'm Craig Donald from Aberdeen, and I support

32:29

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32:32

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32:34

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32:37

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33:21

So I think you

33:24

left Germany in 1985. What

33:27

happened with the rest of your military service?

33:31

Again, maybe about four

33:33

or five months

33:36

before you leave, you get orders. So

33:38

I got orders to leave. Oh, God,

33:40

I'm trying to remember. It was

33:42

in 85. I remember that, and

33:45

the only reason I remember that, Ian, is because live

33:47

aid was happening.

33:49

And it was

33:51

a big thing at the time on MTV. And

33:53

that's how I kind of do my timelines

33:55

in my life, is what was happening in music. So I left.

34:00

Germany, it was, had it been the spring

34:02

and the summer of 85, and

34:05

again I went home on leave for a little bit, and then I was

34:07

assigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina,

34:11

where I got to work with another type of unit,

34:13

which was, again, a blessing

34:15

looking back, because I had different experiences.

34:18

I was assigned to the 18th

34:21

Airborne Corps artillery. It was Alpha

34:23

Battery. I believe it was fifth

34:25

of the eighth artillery, or eighth

34:27

of the fifth, something like that. We

34:31

were a 1-9-8 toad

34:33

unit, which means we had the big

34:36

toad guns that would

34:38

be either airlifted by Chinook

34:41

helicopters or on the back

34:43

of a,

34:45

not a two-so-half, I think they were too small. It

34:47

was a bigger truck after that. I

34:49

forgot maybe the four-ton if that existed.

34:52

Our mission was to support the 82nd Airborne, or

34:54

whatever it is they did.

34:56

I remember when I got my orders,

34:58

everyone said, oh, you're going to the Airborne. It's

35:01

like, no, haha, I'm not, well, at first

35:03

I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. It

35:07

came close, I was like, I want to jump out of airplanes. That's

35:09

crazy. I was relieved

35:12

when I got there. They

35:14

didn't ask me any questions. They just said, this is a good

35:16

unit.

35:17

Here you go. It wasn't like when I got to Germany,

35:20

and I was in a, quote, leg

35:22

unit

35:23

at Fort Bragg, which means you were not airborne,

35:25

that you were looked down upon.

35:28

I didn't know that rivalry existed

35:30

until I got there. It

35:33

was fun because we had the big 1-9-8, and if the

35:35

82nd did something,

35:36

we had a rotation

35:38

of

35:41

all the artillery units, and we're supposed

35:43

to back them up, whether it be an exercise

35:47

or an actual deployment. One time, we

35:49

were on a two-week alert, we said

35:52

those rotations. You'd have to have everything packed,

35:54

ready to go, and within

35:56

that two-week frame, no leaves were

35:58

allowed. You couldn't leave.

35:59

base and if you did it couldn't be that far unless

36:02

you live off base and you were married.

36:05

But we got deployed

36:07

to Florida. No wait, to Fort

36:09

Jackson, South Carolina for

36:11

exercise. But we never knew and it

36:13

was more real there. You actually got

36:16

issued the live ammunition and

36:19

you actually flew somewhere and half the time you didn't

36:22

know where you were going.

36:24

Which I thought looking back was kind of fun. Now

36:26

I'm petrified. But like

36:28

we'd wind up at Fort Jackson one morning and

36:30

we do live fire to support, I don't

36:33

know, the 325th infantry from

36:36

the 82nd Airborne. And we had the big

36:39

guns. They had the little towed guns. I

36:41

think they were called 105s and we had the 198s which

36:44

is basically a 155

36:47

artillery round projectile. It's kind of same

36:49

with the M109. I hope

36:51

I'm not losing you.

36:53

No, I'm still there. Just

36:55

about.

36:56

Okay. So basically

36:58

the 198 is a towed version of

37:00

the M109 self-repelled gun.

37:03

And our mission was a big guns to support

37:05

them. And you know, it was

37:07

fun because you actually deploy somewhere

37:09

with the rounds, live rounds, live ammo,

37:12

everything.

37:13

To Fort Jackson, we went

37:15

to

37:16

someone that does in California one time. And

37:19

there was always rumors, oh, we were going to,

37:21

I

37:23

don't know, Cucuba or something.

37:26

But obviously none of that came true. And

37:28

I was there until

37:30

I think it was 87. I enlisted

37:33

for six years and I was

37:35

going to re-enlist but number

37:38

one, I wanted to go to college and

37:42

I never had even thought about that opportunity

37:45

until I was going to re-enlist

37:48

and they said, well, yeah, this much money saved if

37:50

you want to go to college. I'm like, really?

37:53

So I got out of back to service in 1987, I think

37:55

it was, and I went back

37:58

to the the Los Angeles

38:00

area. And

38:02

I started college at

38:05

Riverside City College. And

38:07

I was also in the California

38:09

National Guard, which is

38:11

another story within itself. But every month

38:14

we'd go up

38:15

to a place called Camp Roberts

38:17

and do live fire missions, which is great. You

38:20

know, they had the money for that back in those days. So

38:22

I did that.

38:24

And then I got out of the National Guard

38:27

in 1992.

38:32

And by that time, personally, I was done with the military.

38:34

I wanted to grow my hair out. I wanted to be a teacher.

38:36

You know, I had like Viva

38:38

La Laza kind of mentality going

38:40

in my head. I

38:42

got married, I got offered a teaching job.

38:45

And so for many years, I taught special education.

38:47

And then I moved to Albuquerque. And then

38:49

I started teaching and going to school. So

38:52

the military was good for me. I got to go to school, got

38:54

three degrees for free, basically. You

38:58

know, my hearing is off. I'm

39:00

fighting with the VA about that. But

39:03

for me, it was a good thing. And

39:06

I missed the camaraderie. I missed

39:11

just the no excuse kind of attitude.

39:13

It's like, you know, we're gonna get this done in the story.

39:15

Yeah. And let's do it. And

39:17

I still keep in touch with some of the old

39:20

guys I knew via Facebook and

39:22

so forth. But I do miss

39:24

it, you know, but then

39:26

life goes on. I just didn't want to

39:29

keep moving around a lot, I guess. It's one

39:31

of the main things I got out. It's like I want to settle

39:33

down somewhere. Yeah, you never know where it can

39:35

be at any point in time,

39:37

really, do you when you're in the military?

39:40

Right. And you know, some people got married

39:42

and made a career out of it. And they moved with their But

39:45

I didn't have that opportunity. But

39:47

again, I have no regrets. Well,

39:50

maybe I should have maybe gone the officer

39:52

routes looking back.

39:55

Because, well, I love the military

39:57

and have more of an interest in it.

39:59

older. But outside

40:02

of that I loved my time in the military.

40:04

I had a great time. It was good to me. It

40:07

was good to me. Especially as a son

40:10

of a Mexican immigrant. Don't

40:13

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40:15

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40:17

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40:20

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40:31

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40:42

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