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usa.com. Towing capacity varies by

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configuration. This episode covers

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themes of physical

1:10

and emotional abuse

1:12

as well as suicide. If

1:14

you need support, please follow

1:16

the links in the

1:19

episode description. And even

1:21

when we were exhausted

1:23

or we were in pain, it

1:25

doesn't matter for them. It was

1:28

cruel at the time. And I

1:30

often cried and for crying you

1:32

got punished too. I cried

1:34

a lot during this time in

1:37

bed in the evening under the

1:39

blanket when no one could

1:41

hear me. This is Cold War

1:44

Conversations. If you're new here

1:46

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1:48

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1:50

Cold War history accounts. Do

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that you don't miss out

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on future. episodes. Kirsten recounts

2:01

her harrowing childhood and life

2:03

experiences in East Germany. She

2:05

was identified at a young

2:07

age for elite sports training

2:10

which led to intense gymnastics

2:12

regiments, physical and emotional abuse

2:14

and state-sponsored doping. When she

2:16

was dismissed from the sports

2:18

program without warning her personal

2:20

life deteriorated further after her

2:23

father's death and she turned

2:25

to alcohol and self-destructive behaviour.

2:27

Despite enduring severe

2:30

trauma, Kirsten ultimately found

2:32

healing and reconciliation with

2:34

her past. I'm delighted

2:36

to welcome Kirsten to

2:38

our Cold War conversation.

2:41

This episode covers themes

2:43

of physical and emotional

2:45

abuse as well as suicide.

2:47

If you need support, please follow

2:49

the links in the episode description.

2:52

I was born in Leipzig,

2:54

the former GDR. And it

2:57

was 1970. What did your

2:59

parents do? My father

3:02

was a carpenter

3:04

and my mother

3:06

worked in kindergarten.

3:08

What was their view

3:10

of the East German

3:12

government? My

3:15

father, I can't

3:17

remember that he

3:19

is very interested

3:21

in politics. In

3:24

case of my mom it

3:26

was more like she

3:28

wanted always to be

3:31

conformed with the

3:33

state and not

3:35

giving any disturbance.

3:37

Was there anybody

3:39

else in your family?

3:42

Yeah I have a brother

3:44

and he is six

3:46

years older than me and

3:49

we never discussed

3:51

politics. Where did

3:53

you live? What was your

3:56

living accommodation like? It was

3:58

Leipzigner, not... Ost and

4:01

it was very

4:03

old constructions and

4:05

it used to be

4:08

where normal workers

4:10

lived during the World

4:12

War and since

4:14

World War nothing

4:16

has changed much

4:18

actually. For instance we

4:21

had the toilet

4:23

not in the flat

4:25

it was half the

4:27

steps up or down.

4:29

It was not in

4:31

our living space. Or

4:33

we didn't own a

4:35

washing machine. So we

4:37

had to go downstairs

4:39

in the backyard and there

4:42

were a little house

4:44

where the whole people

4:46

from our house washed

4:48

their clothes. There were

4:51

this huge cattle. So

4:53

we didn't have a

4:55

washing machine. Before you

4:58

got involved in sport

5:00

were your interests as

5:02

a child? When I was

5:05

very young I actually

5:07

can't remember much because

5:09

I started sports when

5:11

I was five or

5:14

six and before that

5:16

kids were brought to

5:18

the kindergarten very early.

5:20

I was four weeks old

5:23

when I was four weeks

5:25

old when I... did go to

5:28

the kindergarten and

5:30

I played with the

5:32

other kids there but

5:34

there wasn't something special

5:37

I would say. And

5:39

what was school like

5:41

for you? School was

5:43

pretty intense because

5:45

in first grade I

5:47

started sport and it

5:50

meant I had school

5:52

at school at first.

5:55

like the other

5:57

kids and off.

6:00

the school hours, a bus

6:02

came and brought us

6:04

to the training center.

6:07

And in school it

6:09

was difficult because I

6:11

had to be good

6:13

in the school also.

6:16

And for instance,

6:18

after school and

6:20

after the sports,

6:22

I had to do

6:24

my homework, went to

6:26

sleep and the next

6:28

day. the same and we

6:31

also had a school on

6:33

Saturdays in the GR and

6:35

that meant it was

6:38

the same six days

6:40

a week and on

6:42

Sundays we had competitions

6:44

in our sports and

6:46

there were no much

6:48

leisure time. How did

6:50

you come to be

6:52

selected for sports training?

6:54

How did they find

6:57

you? It was in

6:59

kindergarten, I was

7:01

five years old,

7:03

and people came and

7:05

they were from the

7:08

training centers, it

7:10

was something like

7:12

sports scouts. And they

7:14

did measurements on the

7:17

whole body, for instance,

7:19

how tall we are

7:22

or how flexible we

7:24

are. We had to

7:27

do movements and they

7:29

studied our movements. They

7:32

took our weight for

7:34

instance and they

7:36

actually were looking for

7:39

tiny slim kids. How

7:41

long were the training

7:44

sessions that you had each

7:46

day? At the beginning

7:49

it was not as

7:51

much. I should say,

7:53

it was two hours

7:55

of ballet exercise and

7:57

how to move. And

8:00

then we had two

8:03

hours in the training

8:05

room where we had

8:08

a circle training also.

8:10

And we had training

8:13

on the beam, for

8:15

instance, or the floor.

8:18

Yeah, there were

8:20

different exercises. And

8:22

all together it

8:25

was four hours a

8:27

day. Wow, did you

8:29

find yourself absolutely

8:31

exhausted after that?

8:34

Of course, I was

8:36

exhausted all the time

8:38

and it felt like

8:40

I couldn't breathe right.

8:43

It was like having

8:45

a huge weight on

8:47

my shoulders. Yeah.

8:49

What particular disciplines

8:52

of gymnastics were

8:54

they training you?

8:57

I was on the floor,

8:59

on the beam, and then

9:01

two bars, but they were

9:04

not even, they were

9:06

on even bars. And

9:08

then you have, where

9:10

you running and jump

9:13

horse, those four disciplines

9:15

we had, and for

9:18

instance, when you are

9:21

doing gymnastics on

9:23

the floor, there

9:25

were ballet. elements

9:28

and acrobatic elements and

9:30

for that we had

9:32

a special training even

9:35

for the power you

9:37

know we had to do

9:39

circle training like in

9:41

common terms nowadays. And

9:43

did you have friends

9:45

within the group of girls

9:48

that you were training

9:50

with? Yeah actually I grew

9:52

up with them in

9:54

kindergarten and We all

9:56

together joined the training

9:58

in this. center, but

10:01

later a few of

10:03

them left for

10:05

different reasons. And,

10:08

you know, in training they

10:10

just kept the best

10:13

of the best. So,

10:15

and the older I

10:17

were getting, the fewer

10:20

of my original friends

10:22

were there. What were

10:24

the trainers like? How

10:27

did they treat you?

10:29

a bunch of trainers

10:31

because for every session

10:33

there were a subtle

10:36

trainers and at first

10:38

it was not so

10:40

personal. They just

10:43

wanted to select

10:45

I would say who is

10:47

good for training or

10:50

who is not and

10:52

they just wanted to

10:54

keep the most promisings.

10:56

And later we have

10:59

more personalized trainers, but

11:01

they were strict from

11:04

the beginning and even

11:06

got physical with us

11:08

if something was wrong

11:11

and they were yelling

11:13

often. And from the

11:15

beginning when I started

11:18

in training I always

11:20

feared them. We all

11:22

did. We were scared

11:24

for punishment. We were

11:26

scared for punishment. that

11:29

we would kick out.

11:32

The main motivation

11:34

was fear, I would say.

11:37

Yeah. Did they hit

11:39

you if you did

11:41

something wrong? Yes, most

11:44

of the time we

11:47

had to repeat

11:49

everything if it

11:51

wasn't perfect. And

11:53

even when we were

11:56

exhausted or... We were

11:58

in pain. It doesn't

12:00

matter for them. It

12:03

was cruel at the

12:06

time and I often

12:08

cried and for crying

12:11

you got punished too.

12:13

So we had always

12:16

pull ourselves together and

12:18

later it was difficult

12:21

for the girls to

12:23

comfort others because everyone

12:26

was in pain. It

12:28

wasn't easy. Yeah. So

12:31

did you talk amongst

12:33

your fellow gymnasts about

12:36

what this treatment was

12:38

like and how awful

12:41

it was? In secret,

12:44

yes. Most of the

12:46

time when we were

12:49

in the restroom, in

12:51

the bathroom. And we

12:54

even talked about how

12:56

we could... we injured

12:59

ourselves. that we have

13:01

a break, but it

13:04

doesn't work out this

13:06

way. So we talk,

13:09

but not very much.

13:11

So... Were your parents

13:14

aware of the physical

13:16

abuse that you were

13:19

getting from the trainers?

13:22

I think not much

13:24

because at first they

13:27

were not allowed in

13:29

the training center that

13:32

meant every day they

13:34

could do with us

13:37

how they wished and

13:39

the the parents were

13:42

allowed only on Sundays

13:44

when the competitions were

13:47

but only to a

13:49

certain. Sundays, not every

13:52

Sunday. And for instance,

13:54

when we had training

13:57

camps, we would drive

13:59

outside the city and

14:02

stay there for a

14:05

week or for... 14

14:07

days and the parents

14:10

were not there whatsoever.

14:12

We even lived with

14:15

families we didn't know

14:17

and we were alone.

14:20

They separated us from

14:22

our parents on purpose.

14:25

That sounds really tough

14:27

for somebody who was

14:30

the age you were

14:32

at the time? Yes.

14:35

I cried a lot

14:37

during this time in

14:40

bed in the evening

14:43

under the blanket when

14:45

no one could hear

14:48

me. That's awful. At

14:50

what age did they

14:53

start having you competing

14:55

in competitions? It was,

14:58

I would say from

15:00

the beginning, everything. the

15:03

competition because they wanted

15:05

to select the best

15:08

from the start and

15:10

when you went on

15:13

the top you you

15:15

had no value for

15:18

them at least so

15:20

and they would kick

15:23

out of kids who

15:26

doesn't make it. So

15:29

at this point gymnastics

15:31

is almost your complete

15:34

focus in life? It

15:36

was. Not almost, it

15:38

was, definitely. At what

15:41

age do they start

15:43

giving you medical supplements

15:45

or pills? I think

15:48

it was when I

15:50

was one and a

15:52

half years there, when

15:55

I was eight and

15:57

a half years there,

15:59

when I was eight

16:02

and a half years.

16:04

9 years old. it

16:06

started. It was before

16:09

we hit puberty. So...

16:11

What did they say

16:13

these pills were for?

16:16

They told us it

16:18

was good for the

16:20

bones and like you

16:23

were getting calcium and

16:25

they told us it's

16:27

vitamin pills and we

16:30

trusted them because most

16:32

of the day they...

16:34

were with us and

16:37

we trusted our trainers

16:39

in that sense. Were

16:41

your parents aware that

16:44

they were giving you

16:46

these pills? Actually they

16:48

gave my mother those

16:51

pills and I had

16:53

to take them at

16:55

breakfast but they did

16:58

it in a loose

17:00

package. There were nothing

17:02

on it where she

17:05

could read it or

17:07

something. They just told

17:09

her your daughter had

17:12

to take it and

17:14

even in when we

17:16

have holidays They told

17:19

her She has to

17:21

train even at home

17:23

even when was not

17:26

officially training that I

17:28

would not grow anymore,

17:30

that I will keep

17:33

being tiny. She thought

17:35

with this kind of

17:37

intense training I would

17:40

not grow, but she

17:42

didn't know that the

17:44

pills actually were doing

17:47

it. Unbelievable, the deception

17:49

they were carrying out

17:51

here. Presumably they were

17:54

also carrying out medical

17:56

tests on you during

17:58

this period. Yeah,

18:01

this would have

18:03

to take play

18:05

by SMD. It's

18:07

a sports medical

18:09

team's. And the

18:11

SMD would do

18:13

tests weekly. That

18:15

means they took

18:17

blood samples. They

18:19

took a urine.

18:21

And in e-cage.

18:23

E.K.G. or I

18:25

don't know. So

18:27

an ECG that

18:29

would check the

18:31

heart? Yeah. And

18:33

once the month

18:35

we had to

18:37

get stool samples

18:39

and actually they

18:42

took off our

18:44

ears blood and

18:46

tested for lactose

18:48

every week. Wow,

18:50

pretty intensive medical

18:52

examinations going on

18:54

then. Yes, and

18:56

sometimes the SMD

18:58

would, when we

19:00

had training, they

19:02

would watch us

19:04

and we were

19:06

doing something, for

19:08

instance, on the

19:10

floor or on

19:12

the beam, and

19:14

after that they

19:16

would take our

19:18

pulse and they

19:20

would write down

19:22

everything in tables.

19:24

Yeah. So

19:26

you were almost like

19:28

human guinea pigs then?

19:30

We were actually because

19:32

they did it in

19:34

school with whole classes. We

19:37

were the C class and

19:39

at the same school they

19:42

were there were the B

19:45

class and the B class

19:47

didn't didn't get the

19:49

doping and then they saw

19:52

the difference. Actually we were

19:54

guinea pigs. When

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21:56

the parents, I presume

21:58

they felt it was

22:00

like an honour that

22:03

you were having this.

22:05

training they were immensely

22:07

proud. Yeah for instance

22:09

my mom always told

22:11

me pull yourself together

22:13

you are so privileged

22:16

but I never felt

22:18

like that because the

22:20

way they treated us

22:22

and I was always

22:24

scared scared of the

22:27

trainers but my parents

22:29

as well because my

22:31

father was very ill.

22:33

And my mother wanted

22:35

me in this training.

22:38

Actually, she were the

22:40

only one who visited

22:42

for competitions. My father

22:44

never joined. So she

22:46

was very into it.

22:48

But it wasn't my

22:51

dream. Were

22:54

there going to be

22:56

any extra privilege for

22:58

your family if you

23:01

were successful? Not yet.

23:03

Just when you get

23:05

older and you are

23:07

Olympic Carter, but so

23:09

many, so many were

23:11

lost on the way

23:14

to the top. So

23:16

I never made it

23:18

to the top because

23:20

I had my problems.

23:22

I got injured. And

23:24

my house wasn't the

23:27

best. And yeah, I

23:29

didn't make it to

23:31

the top. Were you

23:33

given any special equipment

23:35

to help with your

23:37

performance, like shoes? Yes,

23:40

very soft and nasty

23:42

shoes. You know, they

23:44

were very raw and

23:46

you couldn't even buy

23:48

it in the shop

23:50

in the gear. and

23:53

there were special unit

23:55

where Schufeter were and

23:57

When I first came

23:59

in this unit and

24:01

I saw the whole

24:03

bunch of shoes, I

24:06

was so surprised and

24:08

when I got my

24:10

first pair, I was

24:12

so proud and I

24:14

wanted even to sleep

24:16

at home in it.

24:19

I was over the

24:21

moon actually, but yeah,

24:23

that is my only

24:25

good memory from the

24:27

training. I did

24:30

win medals because our

24:32

team was very good

24:35

and it was a

24:37

sport club famous for

24:40

getting medals on the

24:42

Olympics. It was SC

24:45

Leipzig and that was

24:47

my club. And later

24:49

on when I was

24:52

in my teams, I

24:54

drew everything away. I

24:57

wanted to get rid

24:59

of everything but I

25:02

gladly I kept photos.

25:04

Whilst you're taking these

25:07

pills did you notice

25:09

any changes to your

25:12

body? Well you know

25:14

when you are a

25:16

goodness you have a

25:19

certain core for balance

25:21

and if you if

25:24

you would grow fast

25:26

or hitting puberty everything

25:29

is going to change

25:31

and actually the pills

25:34

we got stopped this

25:36

process so I was

25:39

even when I was

25:41

13 for instance I

25:44

still had the body

25:46

of a nine-year-old so

25:48

and even even when

25:51

I hit puberty later

25:53

it took very very

25:56

long Before I had

25:58

my menstruation and it

26:01

was hard for me

26:03

because I felt I

26:06

weird because girls my

26:08

age actually were in

26:11

puberty and what I

26:13

realized I think we

26:15

also got something like

26:18

what changes the the

26:20

concentration I was more

26:23

focused and You know,

26:25

for goodness is like

26:28

before they start in

26:30

an exercise, they have

26:33

a mental picture already

26:35

of the whole thing

26:38

in mind and that

26:40

was way easier because

26:42

when you do an

26:45

exercise, you had to

26:47

forget your surroundings and

26:50

it was very sharp

26:52

and before I didn't

26:55

had that. Did

26:57

you experience any health

26:59

issues during your training?

27:02

It started when I

27:04

was 11. It was

27:06

right before I ended

27:08

sports. I got nosebleeds

27:10

and they were not

27:13

able to stop some.

27:15

My parents wanted to

27:17

help me, but I

27:19

had to go to

27:22

the doctor. And before

27:24

I ended training we

27:26

were not allowed to

27:28

go to other doctors

27:31

outside from sports, but

27:33

I did go to

27:35

another doctor and they

27:37

had to put something

27:39

in my nostrils to

27:42

stop the pleading completely.

27:44

And... At

27:46

the age of 11

27:49

12, it started that

27:51

I had aridmia and

27:53

it was to the

27:56

extent where I almost

27:58

passed on. Wow, so

28:01

you were having problems

28:03

with your heart, age

28:06

just 11 or 12.

28:08

Yeah, yeah. And later

28:11

in puberty I had

28:13

kidney issues and kidney

28:15

stones because we were

28:18

malnourished and they had

28:20

to take our weight

28:23

every day. And it

28:25

was... Terrible because a

28:28

measure of everything we

28:30

were allowed to eat.

28:33

So you weren't allowed

28:35

to have sweets as

28:38

a child? Of course

28:40

not. Of course we

28:42

tried, we tried to

28:45

cheat, but it wasn't

28:47

possible, but we did

28:50

get sweets. But later

28:52

on in Stasi files,

28:55

you could read even

28:57

the sweets. had doping

29:00

in it or painkillers

29:02

or something like that.

29:04

How much detail did

29:07

you find in your

29:09

Stasi files? Actually, the

29:12

Stasi after GDR, that

29:14

were the first files

29:17

they destroyed where they

29:19

experimented with childs such

29:22

a young age. But

29:24

a few files survived.

29:26

Mine did not. My

29:29

Stasi file starts with

29:31

puberty. Now when you're

29:34

around 11, you're told

29:36

you're not good enough.

29:39

You're not going to

29:41

make it. Can you

29:44

remember the moment you

29:46

were told about that?

29:50

No one from training

29:53

told me. It was

29:55

from one day to

29:58

another I had to

30:01

leave. But no one

30:03

was available for me,

30:06

so I couldn't say

30:09

goodbye to my mates,

30:11

to the other girls.

30:14

And I had to

30:17

leave. Actually, my mom

30:19

told me that I

30:22

have to go. Then

30:25

I broke down because

30:28

for five years it

30:30

was the only thing

30:32

I knew and I

30:35

lost my friends at

30:37

that date and I

30:40

Yeah It felt like

30:42

I'm I'm in free

30:45

fall because I never

30:47

Interacted with kids outside

30:49

sports and I felt

30:52

really lost Now,

30:57

as if this wasn't

30:59

bad enough use for

31:02

you, your father dies

31:04

around this time as

31:07

well. Yeah, I was

31:09

11 and it was

31:12

around the same time.

31:14

I left sports, but

31:17

after that I was

31:19

for one year or

31:22

one and a half

31:24

years in other sports

31:27

clubs, but not... high

31:29

level sports. It was

31:32

just two times a

31:34

week and my whole

31:37

time management was rural

31:39

cars by then and

31:41

on top of that

31:44

my my father died

31:46

after a long disease.

31:49

So... I mean you're

31:51

possibly experiencing withdrawal symptoms

31:54

because you're no longer

31:56

having these drugs either.

31:59

Yeah. I did start

32:01

drinking when I... I

32:04

was 13 and I

32:06

was mixing the drinks

32:09

with pills so you

32:11

have a stronger effect

32:14

because we had no

32:16

access to drugs so

32:19

I did that and

32:21

yeah by the age

32:24

of 19 I was

32:26

dependent or addicted to

32:29

alcohol. So, and I

32:31

did smoke, but I

32:34

think for me it

32:36

was to numb the

32:39

pain, the pain I

32:41

had inside or to

32:43

use as a crutches,

32:46

you know? Wow, Kirsten,

32:48

I can't even begin

32:51

to imagine the depths

32:53

of... despair you would

32:56

have been feeling at

32:58

this time. How is

33:01

your mother handling this

33:03

situation? Actually she was

33:06

stuck in a depression

33:08

when she lost her

33:11

husband and my father

33:13

and she went to

33:16

Reha and in the

33:18

Reha she met my

33:21

my stepfather and shortly

33:23

after they moved to

33:26

Berlin, East Berlin, because

33:28

he worked at an

33:31

institute at the mathematics.

33:33

Was he a supporter

33:36

of the East German

33:38

government? He was active

33:40

in SED and I'm

33:43

not sure because in

33:45

Germany you are allowed

33:48

to take... your own

33:50

files, Stasi files, and

33:53

if someone... died and

33:55

journalists of course but

33:58

I'm not allowed to

34:00

look into the files

34:03

of my stepfather but

34:05

I suppose he was

34:08

also in this Darcy

34:10

because he had connections

34:13

or whatsoever because you

34:15

were not allowed to

34:18

have such a high-level

34:20

job and then you

34:23

would not have connections

34:25

in So moving to

34:28

Berlin your move to

34:30

a new school what

34:33

was that experience like

34:35

for you? Oh God

34:38

it was difficult because

34:40

I was an 8th

34:42

grade when I entered

34:45

in the new school

34:47

and in the GDR

34:50

you would grow up

34:52

with from first grade

34:55

until 10th grade. It

34:57

would be the same

35:00

people and I was

35:02

from outsider from the

35:05

beginning when I entered

35:07

the school. I had

35:10

another dialect even when

35:12

I was from Saxony

35:15

and going to Berlin

35:17

and even in my

35:20

way of thinking sports

35:22

was everything I knew.

35:25

And the kids in

35:27

8th grade, they were

35:30

14 by the time

35:32

and they were more

35:35

into the pop culture

35:37

and the music, what

35:40

was in and out

35:42

at the time, and

35:44

I was lost in

35:47

between, I would say.

35:49

Though even the musicians,

35:52

they mentioned it. I

35:54

didn't know. You know?

35:57

So it was weird.

35:59

Yeah. And even my

36:02

ability... But he social

36:04

skills were not very

36:07

good because I never

36:09

had the chance to

36:12

learn it in the

36:14

right way, yes. Because

36:17

you'd always been told

36:19

what to do in

36:22

the past. Even what

36:24

to eat and how

36:27

much? sort of losing

36:29

your way at this

36:32

point, would that be

36:34

a good way of

36:37

describing your situation? Yes.

36:39

Mm-hmm. How is your

36:41

relationship with your mother

36:44

and stepfather at this

36:46

point with everything that's

36:49

going on with you?

36:51

So they had a

36:54

new marriage, both of

36:56

them? And you know,

36:59

my stepfather even had

37:01

a marriage before and

37:04

remaraged my mother and

37:06

they were busy building

37:09

this relationship and I

37:11

was left over. So,

37:14

Julie, I was by

37:16

myself, I had no

37:19

friends, I was in

37:21

a town or city,

37:24

a huge city, I

37:26

didn't know. And but

37:29

I had to function,

37:31

you know, and I

37:34

wasn't able to. How's

37:36

your relationship with your

37:39

brother at this point?

37:41

You still together, he

37:43

was a bit older

37:46

than you. Yeah, we

37:48

got separated with my

37:51

move to Berlin and

37:53

my brother stayed. in

37:56

Leipzig because he was

37:58

almost 18 at the

38:01

time he is six

38:03

years older and when

38:06

I moved to Berlin

38:08

I was almost 13

38:11

yeah. How on earth

38:13

are you coping in

38:16

in this situation? Is

38:18

it the alcohol and

38:21

painkillers that are keeping

38:23

you going? Yeah. And

38:26

it was, I'm afraid

38:28

when I talk about

38:31

it, it will trigger

38:33

or some stuff, actually.

38:36

Now, it was terrible

38:38

for me because I

38:41

lost my brother and

38:43

until today we have

38:45

no relationship anymore. I

38:48

didn't hear him for

38:50

years now. We don't

38:53

talk. And we were

38:55

close when I was

38:58

a kid, you know.

39:00

I'm sorry that I'm

39:03

bringing back some of

39:05

these tough memories for

39:08

you, Kirsten. I think

39:10

it's important to talk

39:13

how... yeah, stuff like

39:15

that. in the GDR

39:18

separated families even and

39:20

tell them apart. Yeah.

39:23

Absolutely. This history is

39:25

really important for people

39:28

to hear and I

39:30

appreciate you sharing your

39:33

story with me. Sometimes

39:35

I think. that the

39:38

scouts even looked in

39:40

the family and looked

39:43

for dysfunctional families to

39:45

get full control over

39:47

the potential goodness or

39:50

a spot. When you

39:52

are 60. you actually

39:55

run away from home?

39:57

Yes, because I couldn't

40:00

bear anymore. At this

40:02

point, the only thing

40:05

my parents wanted me

40:07

to be conformed with

40:10

the state and that

40:12

I function in school

40:15

and have a apprenticeship.

40:17

But I totally lost

40:20

my identity. I didn't

40:22

know what to do.

40:25

I didn't know what

40:27

to do. And I

40:30

didn't function for years

40:32

by then, and then

40:35

I left. I was

40:37

out on the streets

40:40

of East Berlin by

40:42

then. So you were

40:44

homeless in East Berlin?

40:47

Sometimes I slept outside,

40:49

or in empty houses,

40:52

there were a lot

40:54

of them. And because

40:57

the GDR didn't take

40:59

care of houses, and

41:02

the people who rented

41:04

the houses left, and

41:07

yeah, we broke in

41:09

and just slept on

41:12

the floor with nothing.

41:14

And I preferred it

41:17

at the time because

41:19

it was horrible at

41:22

home. I couldn't stand

41:24

that. And even there

41:27

were things going on

41:29

that was out of

41:32

order, I would say.

41:34

But I don't, I

41:37

prefer not to mention

41:39

what it was, but

41:42

it goes in the

41:44

direction of mental abuse

41:46

and even physical abuse.

41:49

And my Mike Stefan

41:51

hit me. Kasten,

41:56

are you okay to

41:58

continue with this? Yeah.

42:01

I went to clubs

42:04

to forget everything and

42:06

I befriended people who

42:09

were not conformed with

42:11

the state, not when

42:14

it comes to appearance,

42:16

because everything was the

42:18

same. So, and I

42:21

hated it, I was

42:23

attracted to people who

42:26

had a brain or

42:28

their own mind. And

42:31

then I, yeah, I

42:33

met two guys and

42:36

they were very friendly

42:38

and for years I

42:41

didn't experience something like

42:43

that. And they were

42:46

from a satanic cult

42:48

and I didn't know

42:50

that because they looked

42:53

normal. They were not...

42:55

wearing black or something

42:58

and they started a

43:00

conversation with me and

43:03

at first I thought

43:05

it would be interesting

43:08

because they didn't mention

43:10

about rituals or Satan

43:13

or something. I found

43:15

out half a year

43:18

later what they were

43:20

into. So it was

43:22

not. in an instant

43:25

that I knew okay

43:27

they are this kind

43:30

of people. So how

43:32

does that friendship progress

43:35

for you? They mentioned

43:37

another club where I

43:40

should join and I

43:42

did actually and met

43:45

many friendly people actually

43:47

and there were three

43:50

groups and they were

43:52

on different levels of

43:54

extreme the first I

43:57

would say they, back

43:59

then there were a

44:02

music style, it's called

44:04

New Wave, and even,

44:07

you know, Kofte's or

44:09

Gothic's, and they were

44:12

into, yeah, dressing in

44:14

black, and here, certain

44:17

groups like Joy Division

44:19

or Sisters of Mercy

44:22

and stuff like that.

44:24

But I wasn't into

44:26

it, but I met

44:29

people also from there,

44:31

from this group and

44:34

the next group, they

44:36

were hanging out drinking

44:39

alcohol and yeah, nothing

44:41

mattered for them and

44:44

they were just chilling

44:46

all the time or

44:49

being drunk. It wasn't

44:51

attracted to me because

44:54

you couldn't hold a

44:56

normal conversations with them

44:58

because they were drunk

45:01

so much. And the

45:03

third crew was more

45:06

extreme. At the beginning

45:08

I befriended two girls

45:11

from there and we

45:13

started to go places

45:16

and later I learned.

45:18

There were four leaders

45:21

over this whole group

45:23

and they gave orders

45:26

what rituals and what

45:28

orders the people of

45:30

the group have to

45:33

fulfill. And I was

45:35

part of it. And

45:38

some of the group

45:40

never met the leaders.

45:43

They didn't knew the

45:45

names, but it was,

45:48

yeah. Yeah, it was

45:50

so secret and we

45:53

were not allowed to

45:55

talk about it in

45:58

public and we even

46:00

traveled to other cities.

46:02

and fulfill the rituals

46:05

and or it was

46:07

a very dark time

46:10

in my life and

46:12

some some timelines are

46:15

lost for me I

46:17

think you know when

46:20

you have trauma or

46:22

PTSD your brain is

46:25

is protecting you you

46:27

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theaters. even

53:00

when it comes to

53:02

work. So, and at

53:04

the time I wasn't

53:06

working. I did finish

53:09

my apprenticeship in June,

53:11

but it wasn't easy

53:13

and I was mediocre.

53:15

I wasn't even good.

53:18

So, yeah. And I

53:20

depended. on people at

53:22

that time because I

53:24

was drinking. I had

53:27

no hope in life

53:29

and that people took

53:31

me in, gave me

53:33

clothes, gave me even

53:36

money, gave me food

53:38

and the possibility to

53:40

have a shower. And

53:42

for me at the

53:44

time I didn't. take

53:47

it for credit. It

53:49

was Very special for

53:51

me. Yeah. You mentioned

53:53

earlier your Stasi file.

53:56

How early were the

53:58

Stasi tracking you? My

54:00

file started when I

54:02

already moved to Berlin

54:05

and it would be

54:07

like you would have

54:09

a letter in your

54:11

mailbox and they would

54:14

give you an appointment

54:16

where you have to

54:18

be there. And the

54:20

first time I didn't

54:23

even know what it

54:25

was. I went there

54:27

and they brought me

54:29

in a room with

54:32

a table and someone

54:34

sat in front of

54:36

me and it was

54:38

scary because I was

54:41

maybe 1415 at the

54:43

time. And they did

54:45

already know so much

54:47

about me and it

54:50

was like... they watched

54:52

me all the time

54:54

and I wasn't aware

54:56

of it and then

54:58

they asked me question

55:01

about other people and

55:03

what what they were

55:05

talking and and what

55:07

my parents were thinking

55:10

and I rather not

55:12

to answer and then

55:14

they they got more

55:16

aggressive. For instance, they

55:19

say that something could

55:21

happen to your parents.

55:23

Do you know that?

55:25

Stuff like that. And

55:28

I had to write

55:30

down like like a

55:32

whole paper and then

55:34

it was a 50

55:37

minute break and They

55:39

got my paper and

55:41

then the right again

55:43

and you if there

55:46

were not Exactly the

55:48

same They would question

55:50

me and it all

55:52

together the first time

55:55

I was there for

55:57

four hours and I

55:59

was so scared after

56:01

that and every time

56:04

when when I had

56:06

this letter in the

56:08

mailbox I knew what

56:10

is up and I

56:12

tried to prepare myself

56:15

for it but every

56:17

time when I was

56:19

there I got scared

56:21

you can't avoid it.

56:24

You can't avoid that

56:26

And there were even

56:28

one time where something

56:30

weird was going on.

56:33

You know, there were

56:35

only a chair in

56:37

this room and there

56:39

were a handkerchief on

56:42

the chair. And they

56:44

said, take a seat

56:46

on this handkerchief. At

56:48

first I was laughing

56:51

because I was nervous

56:53

and I didn't know

56:55

what it meant. And

56:57

you know, and that's

57:00

it. And then I

57:02

had to leave. And

57:04

later I saw a

57:06

documentary about it was

57:09

years later, maybe 20

57:11

years later. And then

57:13

I find out what

57:15

the handkerchief was for.

57:17

And it shocked me.

57:20

Do you know what

57:22

it means? Yes

57:25

I do I think

57:27

it features in the

57:29

lives of others what

57:32

they want to do

57:34

is capture your scent

57:37

so that if they

57:39

need to get the

57:41

dogs on to you

57:44

then they've got your

57:46

scent. But it's horrible

57:49

I was so scared

57:51

so and when I

57:54

finally got my my

57:56

files and I took

57:58

it took a long

58:01

time I took my

58:03

StarZ files in 2015

58:06

because I didn't want

58:08

my friends being in

58:11

there, you know, and

58:13

learning they were watching

58:15

me or something like

58:18

that. But you know,

58:20

they do a very

58:23

weird thing when you

58:25

read your files. Much

58:28

of the passages are

58:30

blacked out. You can't

58:32

even read who was

58:35

it or so. Even

58:37

today they protect. their

58:40

identity, even when I

58:42

was not protected, you

58:45

know? It is weird,

58:47

but I still think

58:49

my stepfather has his

58:52

hands in it, because

58:54

even my stepfather was

58:57

looking for me all

58:59

the time, or he

59:02

was making sure that

59:04

I'm conformed and I

59:06

don't embarrass them. Wow,

59:09

so the Stasi were

59:11

trying to get you

59:14

to inform on your

59:16

parents and on your

59:19

friends about what they

59:21

were talking about? Yes,

59:23

but I refused and

59:26

then I had to

59:28

go there more often

59:31

and they pressured me.

59:33

But I didn't join,

59:36

but I was so

59:38

scared. I think after

59:40

the maybe the fifth

59:43

or sixth time... They

59:45

just leave it. But

59:48

they were watching me

59:50

in my files. There

59:53

is a date they

59:55

were watching me until

59:57

the 6th of September

1:00:00

89. And actually 11

1:00:02

days later I met

1:00:05

the Christians, you know,

1:00:07

but the Starzy files

1:00:10

ended there. Wow, so

1:00:12

they were even following

1:00:14

you when you're with

1:00:17

this satanic group? Of

1:00:19

course. they tried to

1:00:22

get people inside this

1:00:24

group because you know

1:00:27

they weren't interested in

1:00:29

people hurt the only

1:00:31

interest was was it

1:00:34

conformed with socialism not

1:00:36

if people are dying

1:00:39

or are hurting that

1:00:41

doesn't matter just their

1:00:43

agenda So, and that's

1:00:46

unfortunate because I saw

1:00:48

people die in this

1:00:51

group. Yes, indeed, indeed.

1:00:53

When did you become

1:00:56

aware that the Berlin

1:00:58

Wallard opened? Oh, that

1:01:00

was pretty interesting. I

1:01:03

hear it, but I

1:01:05

didn't believe it. Back

1:01:08

then there were no

1:01:10

social media or something

1:01:13

like that. And it

1:01:15

was mouth-to-mouth information. And

1:01:17

at this time I

1:01:20

wasn't by my parents.

1:01:22

So I went from

1:01:25

Christian home to Christian

1:01:27

home because my parents

1:01:30

don't appreciate that I

1:01:32

became a Christian. So

1:01:34

and even our relationship

1:01:37

was difficult at the

1:01:39

time and I lived

1:01:42

with a friend and

1:01:44

She told me yeah

1:01:47

It's in the TV

1:01:49

Yeah, he read it

1:01:51

every everyone can travel

1:01:54

and I Thought she

1:01:56

is illusion And then

1:01:59

the next morning she

1:02:01

told me yeah, we

1:02:04

We can go together,

1:02:06

I will show you.

1:02:08

And we entered the

1:02:11

wall from, what is

1:02:13

this called? Not Jack

1:02:16

Bunch, point Charlie, it

1:02:18

was another. It was

1:02:21

suddenly, there's even a

1:02:23

movie about that. And

1:02:25

we entered from there,

1:02:28

and there were cars,

1:02:30

like, Galashnikovs. And we

1:02:33

were so scared and

1:02:35

we had our GDR

1:02:38

ID with us and

1:02:40

we entered there where

1:02:42

they stood in a

1:02:45

long row and we

1:02:47

were going there and

1:02:50

we got a stamp

1:02:52

that our passport or

1:02:55

our ideas are valid

1:02:57

now. So we we

1:02:59

didn't had the guarantee

1:03:02

that we can go

1:03:04

back, but we could.

1:03:07

We didn't know at

1:03:09

the time, but we

1:03:12

were leaving anyway. And

1:03:14

it was, it was,

1:03:16

wow, overwhelming when we

1:03:19

entered the West. It

1:03:21

seems like the colors

1:03:24

even were different or...

1:03:26

I don't know how

1:03:29

to describe it. The

1:03:31

ease was always gray

1:03:33

for me. Many shades

1:03:36

of gray. And, but

1:03:38

over there, I learned

1:03:41

how true colors looked

1:03:43

like. Sounds, yeah, cheesy,

1:03:46

but yeah. Oh, no,

1:03:48

no, that's a great

1:03:50

description. Yeah. And then

1:03:53

we walked over there

1:03:55

and the people were

1:03:58

so open and they

1:04:00

welcomed us and... And

1:04:02

they were cheering left

1:04:05

and right on you.

1:04:07

And actually it was

1:04:10

the 10th of November

1:04:12

in the morning when

1:04:15

we went. And before

1:04:17

that we never could

1:04:19

imagine that we were

1:04:22

going to the west.

1:04:24

It was a bondor.

1:04:28

And I know

1:04:30

many Christians were

1:04:32

praying for that.

1:04:34

Yeah. An incredible

1:04:36

day without doubt.

1:04:38

What did you

1:04:40

spend your greetings

1:04:42

money on? I

1:04:44

knew you would

1:04:46

ask that. Actually,

1:04:48

you know, there

1:04:50

were TV investors,

1:04:52

TV commercials. and

1:04:54

they always had

1:04:56

a walkman. And

1:04:58

I wished so

1:05:00

much I would

1:05:02

have a walkman

1:05:04

and for that

1:05:06

I spent my

1:05:08

first money, but

1:05:10

not everything. And

1:05:12

I always wanted

1:05:14

to know what

1:05:16

Kukakula tastes like.

1:05:18

So... And I

1:05:20

bought a can,

1:05:22

but I didn't

1:05:24

know how to

1:05:26

open it. It's

1:05:28

so embarrassing. So

1:05:30

I sat in

1:05:32

front of my

1:05:34

coke and didn't

1:05:36

know how to

1:05:38

open it. Nice.

1:05:40

But to my

1:05:42

embarrassment, I asked

1:05:44

a Westerner, and

1:05:46

he was showing

1:05:48

me how to

1:05:50

do it. It

1:05:52

was so embarrassing,

1:05:54

though. The main

1:05:56

thing was a

1:05:58

walkman, but I

1:06:00

know I did

1:06:02

buy stuff who

1:06:04

couldn't get in

1:06:06

and GDR, you

1:06:08

know. Back then,

1:06:10

I, for instance,

1:06:12

I was wearing

1:06:14

makeup or stuff

1:06:16

like that, you

1:06:18

girly stuff, and

1:06:20

I bought something

1:06:22

good, you know.

1:06:24

The GDR stuff

1:06:26

was underneath mediocre.

1:06:28

So, or, it

1:06:30

wasn't nice. You

1:06:33

mentioned earlier it

1:06:35

wasn't easy for

1:06:37

you to get

1:06:39

a job. Did

1:06:41

you manage to

1:06:43

get a job

1:06:45

after the wall

1:06:47

came down? I

1:06:49

had actually, I

1:06:51

believe, 10 jobs

1:06:53

in the year

1:06:55

after the wall

1:06:57

came down. It

1:06:59

was 1990 and

1:07:01

it wasn't like

1:07:03

that because, you

1:07:05

know, Many jobs

1:07:07

were lost. There

1:07:09

were something called

1:07:11

toy house and

1:07:13

they bought, were

1:07:15

really bad. And

1:07:17

you see, in

1:07:19

the GDR, every

1:07:21

company was faux

1:07:23

ab. It

1:07:25

means it was owned

1:07:27

by the state. So

1:07:30

the state wasn't no

1:07:32

longer. And you know,

1:07:34

about many things, it

1:07:36

was not certain who

1:07:39

owns it anymore. And

1:07:41

that's why many jobs

1:07:43

were lost. And I

1:07:45

was paid cash the

1:07:48

first year. and after

1:07:50

that 91 I got

1:07:52

pregnant and I I

1:07:54

was at home for

1:07:56

three years. with my

1:07:59

son and I was

1:08:01

busy as a mom,

1:08:03

you know, but I

1:08:05

stayed home. I didn't

1:08:08

want him to experience

1:08:10

with what I did

1:08:12

getting in a kindergarten

1:08:14

so early. I was

1:08:17

four weeks old. Did

1:08:19

you eventually get back

1:08:21

in contact with your

1:08:23

mother and stepfather? Later,

1:08:26

yes. Later, yes. And

1:08:28

they helped him. a

1:08:30

lot with my son

1:08:32

actually because I got

1:08:35

pregnant out of an

1:08:37

abuse this guy was

1:08:39

out of the picture

1:08:41

and he was locked

1:08:44

up in a mental

1:08:46

hospital so actually it

1:08:48

was an abuse so

1:08:53

But I was

1:08:55

a Christian and

1:08:57

I was praying

1:08:59

about it and

1:09:01

I decided to

1:09:03

keep the child.

1:09:05

Yeah, I'm glad

1:09:07

I did it.

1:09:09

So... Did you

1:09:11

tell your mother

1:09:13

about what had

1:09:15

happened to you

1:09:17

at the gymnastics?

1:09:19

gave me compensation.

1:09:21

I told my

1:09:23

mom because I

1:09:26

asked her to

1:09:28

write down a

1:09:30

testimony, it was

1:09:32

necessary for getting

1:09:34

the money from

1:09:36

the state because

1:09:38

she is a

1:09:40

witness. And she

1:09:42

agreed to write

1:09:44

down what she

1:09:46

knew from the

1:09:48

training. And it,

1:09:50

yeah. It was

1:09:52

difficult to tell

1:09:54

telling her the

1:09:56

truth, what the

1:09:58

medic... was really

1:10:00

for and she

1:10:03

apologized actually for

1:10:05

me that she

1:10:07

pressured me to

1:10:09

pull myself together

1:10:11

even if I was in

1:10:13

pain or you know she thought

1:10:15

for a long time

1:10:17

I was hypochondriac.

1:10:20

When you imagine a

1:10:22

sickness but you are

1:10:24

healthy she thought I

1:10:27

would be a hypochondriac.

1:10:30

And, but I

1:10:32

was not, you know,

1:10:34

I am 50%

1:10:37

disabled because of

1:10:40

doping. And how

1:10:42

is life for

1:10:44

you now? Oh, it's

1:10:47

good, actually.

1:10:49

I'm able to

1:10:52

tell my story.

1:10:54

No, just kidding.

1:10:56

No, I'm good.

1:10:58

I think it

1:11:00

took a long

1:11:03

process to heal

1:11:05

in so many

1:11:07

ways, but right

1:11:09

now I can

1:11:11

appreciate that I went

1:11:13

through so much, but

1:11:16

I'm able, yeah, to

1:11:18

help others with

1:11:20

my story or

1:11:22

to be a

1:11:24

warning sign for

1:11:26

some people. I

1:11:28

think it's important

1:11:31

not to forget. I'm

1:11:33

able to forgive, but

1:11:35

not everyone will

1:11:37

understand that, but it's

1:11:40

also for my own

1:11:42

sake that I can

1:11:44

close this chapter of

1:11:46

my life. But I

1:11:49

think it's important not

1:11:51

to forget. It was

1:11:53

a dictatorship and it

1:11:55

was a dark era.

1:11:57

I really want to say

1:11:59

that today my my my

1:12:02

relationship with my parents is

1:12:04

very much better than back

1:12:06

then because when someone gets

1:12:08

older they often get softer

1:12:10

and wiser and they they can

1:12:13

now reflect more object things back

1:12:15

then and I really love my

1:12:17

parents I'm grateful that I have

1:12:19

them that I have them that

1:12:21

I have them that I have

1:12:23

them that I have them that

1:12:25

I have them that I have

1:12:27

them that I have them that

1:12:30

I have The episode extras such

1:12:32

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1:12:34

are available via a link in

1:12:37

the episode information. The podcast wouldn't

1:12:39

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our financial supporters and I'd like

1:12:43

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1:12:46

them for keeping the podcast on

1:12:48

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