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Welcome to War War Conversations, the

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slash promo. And I And I got

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out of the car with the passports in

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one hand, the other hand hand it was

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empty. to show it was empty soldiers

1:20

were were taken by surprise.

1:22

by surprise but the quickly came

1:24

forward with his revolver

1:26

in his hand. This

1:29

is is Cold War If If

1:32

you're new here, you've come

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to the right place to

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listen to first-hand Cold War history

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accounts. Do make sure you make sure

1:40

you follow us in your app so that

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you you don't miss out on future

1:44

episodes. Ron Mackay further accounts his

1:46

recounts his experiences in Romania,

1:48

a country teetering between

1:51

Soviet influence and a desire

1:53

for independence. Among

1:55

many stories, Ron visits an RAF

1:57

base in the UK where his

1:59

brother was a... crew member of a

2:01

Vulcan bomber, British nuclear deterrent

2:03

at the time. Ron is

2:05

quizzed in detail by the

2:08

Royal Air Force about the

2:10

locations that he's visited in

2:12

Romania. Back in Romania, Ron

2:14

navigates the intricacies of its

2:16

society and shares stories of

2:18

friendships forged under the watchful

2:21

eyes of the Securitato, Romania's

2:23

feared secret police. From a

2:25

duck shooting party at a

2:27

communist party hunting lodge to

2:29

a tense encounter with tanks

2:32

near the Soviet border, Ron's

2:34

stories are filled with suspense

2:36

and unexpected twists. I'm delighted

2:38

to welcome Ron Mackay to

2:40

our Cold War conversation. July

2:42

1968, your advice to leave

2:45

Romania and return in September.

2:47

And whilst you're in the

2:49

UK, you have a series

2:51

of interesting encounters, I'll say,

2:53

because at one point you

2:55

bump into Ron Walker, the

2:58

Hymack engineer. Well,

3:00

I had a few days

3:02

free because I'd gone to

3:04

visit my brother on his

3:07

Vulcan base in, I think

3:09

it was Wadington, and he

3:11

was busy, and he lent

3:13

me his wife's car and

3:15

said, come back in three

3:17

days' time. So I drove

3:19

up to Darby and called

3:22

Ron Walker, and he refused

3:24

even to recognize who I

3:26

was. and

3:28

I was puzzled by that

3:30

and I kind of insisted

3:32

maybe too much and he

3:34

said I'll see you back

3:36

in Romania don't don't call

3:38

me again so I took

3:40

off from Darby I was

3:43

driving down the A1 and

3:45

there was a hitchhiker in

3:47

uniform on the road and

3:49

I stopped to pick him

3:51

up and conversing with him

3:53

he was in the TA

3:55

he was in the engineers

3:57

he was on a particular

3:59

exercise. He was going be

4:01

trying to get to Brussels

4:03

as cheap as possible. And

4:05

so as we talked, he

4:08

asked me what I did

4:10

and I explained I worked

4:12

in Bucharest. And immediately I

4:14

mentioned that he panicked, asked

4:16

me to stop the car

4:18

and let him out because

4:20

I think he thought I

4:22

was a plant who was

4:24

trying to cause him problems.

4:26

with the exercise that he

4:28

was on. You know, how

4:30

was he going to deal

4:32

with somebody from Romania? But

4:35

from there I went further

4:37

south towards Oxford, I think

4:39

it was, and I discovered

4:41

that the hose, the radiator

4:43

hose on the car had

4:45

gone, and I just happened

4:47

to be close to a

4:49

garage. I cruised to the

4:51

garage. I cruised to the

4:53

garage. and as the mechanic

4:55

put a new radiator hose

4:57

in he started talking to

5:00

me and said what you

5:02

do I said I'm teaching

5:04

whereby said Bucharest ah he

5:06

said you're the shortwave radio

5:08

operator I said what he

5:10

said come on everybody knows

5:12

it apparently that estate what

5:14

was the estate called he

5:16

said that's where they're trained

5:18

so you must be one

5:20

of them and it was

5:22

completely out of the blue

5:25

and then I it was

5:27

three days up so I

5:29

went to join my brother

5:31

at his REF base and

5:33

he invited me that evening

5:35

to the mess and had

5:37

to lend me some clothes

5:39

because in those days REF

5:41

officers messes you had to

5:43

dress well and I didn't

5:45

have good enough clothes so

5:47

I was wearing my brother's

5:50

clothes we went into the

5:52

the bar and The wing

5:54

commander's wife saw me as

5:56

a new face and she

5:58

came over and introduced herself

6:00

and asked me who I

6:02

was. and I said to

6:04

her, I'm a teacher, I've

6:06

been in Bucharest and I'm

6:08

just going back to Bucharest

6:10

shortly, and she panicked as

6:12

well. She grabbed me by

6:15

the hand, dragged me over

6:17

to her husband and said,

6:19

darling, darling, this nice gentleman,

6:21

and he works in Romania,

6:23

Romania, behind the iron curtain.

6:25

So that was a bit

6:27

of a, but the following

6:29

day, my brother took me

6:31

to their QRA room, which

6:33

was the, I think it

6:35

was it's the quick alert

6:37

system that the... Yeah, quick

6:39

reaction alert for the Vulcan

6:42

Nuclear Bomber. Alert, where they

6:44

could get a bomber with

6:46

a deterrent on it into

6:48

the air within about 14

6:50

minutes or something like that.

6:52

And I was in the

6:54

QRA room with these with

6:56

the pilots and the navigators

6:58

and they were all dressed

7:00

ready to be called when

7:02

the... the siren went, but

7:04

suddenly there was only myself

7:07

and one other person in

7:09

the room and I thought

7:11

that was a little bit

7:13

strange but he started talking

7:15

to me and asking me

7:17

where I had traveled in

7:19

Romania and so I mentioned

7:21

some of the more tourist

7:23

type places. My mother had

7:25

come out and I had

7:27

taken her on a holiday

7:29

around Romania quite extensively. And

7:32

he said, you've been in

7:34

galats, I believe. And I

7:36

said, yes, I was. I

7:38

was in galats. Well, tell

7:40

me about it. What does

7:42

it look like? Tell me.

7:44

And he was curious about

7:46

the hotel that we had

7:48

stayed in. We had got

7:50

there that one night to

7:52

the hotel, to the galats.

7:54

And there was a brilliant

7:57

new hotel just built, covered

7:59

in windows in glass. very

8:01

unusual for Romania at that

8:03

time and he was interested

8:05

in the hotel and asked

8:07

me the dimensions of the

8:09

hotel, the height of the

8:11

hotel in stories, how long

8:13

it might have been. And

8:15

it was only years after

8:17

that, actually when I was

8:19

writing the book, that I

8:21

mentioned to my brother, what

8:24

was that all about? And

8:26

he told me that the

8:28

radar in those days, maybe

8:30

still, didn't handle glass surfaces

8:32

very well, and maybe water

8:34

as well, I don't remember

8:36

now. But one of the

8:38

V-bomers had been converted to

8:40

take aerial survey photographs from

8:42

considerable distances from the Soviet

8:44

Union, and they sometimes were

8:46

confused by shiny surfaces. And

8:49

so he was trying to

8:51

get a closer take on

8:53

galats from me. Wow,

8:58

never a dull moment with

9:00

you, Ron. Never a dull

9:03

moment. So when you return

9:05

to Bucharest, this is after

9:07

the invasion of Czechoslovakia, did

9:10

that change the atmosphere at

9:12

all there? Yes, it did.

9:15

It changed the atmosphere in

9:17

that because Romania had not

9:20

joined... the other Warsaw Pact

9:22

forces in the invasion of

9:25

Czechoslovakia, some Romanians thought, well,

9:27

we're going to take a

9:29

more independent line. But that

9:32

was probably true in terms

9:34

of trade and in terms

9:37

of relations with China and

9:39

Israel and certainly with Britain

9:42

as well. But it wasn't

9:44

true internally. What Romanians were

9:47

afraid of was that there

9:49

had been some kind of

9:52

trade-off. with the Soviet Union.

9:54

Yes, Chauciasco, you can take

9:56

a more independent line with

9:59

your foreign policy, but you've

10:01

got to crack down even

10:04

further internally in the country.

10:06

And so there was this

10:09

dual concern inside the country

10:11

that the securitati was going

10:14

to be even worse than

10:16

it had been prior to

10:19

the Czechoslovak invasion. And why

10:21

did you go back for

10:23

a second year? You've enjoyed

10:26

it so much you wanted

10:28

to go back? I'm not

10:31

sure the word enjoyment is

10:33

exactly the right word. In

10:36

those days we didn't look

10:38

for fun or enjoyment. It

10:41

wasn't quite the word we

10:43

used. I founded Fascinating. I

10:46

had put so much effort

10:48

into learning Romanian, learning how

10:50

to survive and be content

10:53

in the country, that I

10:55

wanted to cash in on

10:58

all of the effort that

11:00

I had made in that

11:03

first year. And I made

11:05

a promise to myself for

11:08

my second year. In my

11:10

first year, I had been

11:12

very careful about not getting

11:15

any Romanian into trouble. And

11:17

so I tended not to

11:20

follow through on invitations or

11:22

offers of friendship because I

11:25

was told they either they

11:27

will get into trouble or

11:30

they will be securitate or

11:32

they will be informants. So

11:35

when I went back I

11:37

said what you're going to

11:39

do this year is you're

11:42

going to assume that any

11:44

Romanian who tries to make

11:47

friends with you is either

11:49

uninformant or a securitate officer.

11:52

or they know better than

11:55

you how to protect themselves.

11:57

And so I made many

11:59

more and many

12:02

more close friendships than I

12:04

had done in my first

12:06

year because I gave the

12:09

responsibility of looking after themselves

12:11

to the Romanians and didn't

12:13

take it on my own

12:16

shoulders. You have a Romanian

12:18

girlfriend? Yes, that was one

12:20

of the approaches that of

12:23

many made to me by

12:25

Romanian people during that year.

12:27

She was actually a student

12:30

in my class and she

12:32

followed me in the street

12:34

one day and to find

12:37

out whether she really was

12:39

following me or not I

12:41

turned off the main boulevard

12:44

on to his side street

12:46

and stopped and she talked

12:48

to me on the side

12:51

street and so she was

12:53

making the offer of friendship

12:55

to me. what she wanted

12:58

or what her mother wanted

13:00

was for me to be

13:02

her private tutor in English

13:05

language and literature so that

13:07

she would come out top

13:09

of her class which he

13:12

would have done anyway without

13:14

my intervention an extremely bright

13:16

young woman. She was 19

13:19

years old when I met

13:21

her and so we began

13:23

to meet up every week

13:26

or 10 days either in

13:28

a park or then my

13:30

apartment and we became we

13:33

became closer friends. So that

13:35

was a very satisfactory step.

13:37

I obviously had question in

13:40

my mind whether or not

13:42

she had to inform on

13:44

me. Her mother had been

13:47

a communist party member, had

13:49

a very important job with

13:52

a state institution in Bucharest.

13:54

So I assumed that at

13:56

least her mother had to

13:59

indicate that her daughter was

14:01

being privately tutored and more

14:03

by Westerner, but that she

14:06

knew how to protect herself.

14:08

So that was, I'm going

14:10

to call her M, because

14:13

she defected in 1969, and

14:15

we're still friends. She lives

14:17

in the United States of

14:20

America. I actually managed to

14:22

get her into Edinburgh University

14:24

after she defected in 1969.

14:27

I discovered that As

14:30

the ex-exchange professor of phonetics

14:32

in Bucharest University, the title

14:35

had a certain cache, and

14:37

so when she asked me

14:40

if I could try to

14:42

get her into Edinburgh University,

14:45

I went along to see

14:47

the professor Angus McIntosh, a

14:50

delightful gentleman, who had worked

14:52

for British intelligence during the

14:55

war. I didn't know that

14:57

at the time, and he

14:59

had actually worked in Bletchley

15:02

Park. So when I explained

15:04

to him that I was

15:07

the ex-professor of phonetics at

15:09

Bucharest University and that I

15:12

had a young, bright, defectee

15:14

who wanted to get into

15:17

Edinburgh University, but had no

15:19

papers at all. other than

15:22

an expired Romanian passport and

15:24

the authority of the British

15:26

government to stay in Britain

15:29

as a refugee, he admitted

15:31

her into Edinburgh University. and

15:34

she did herself proud, she

15:37

did me proud and she

15:39

did Angus McIntosh proud by

15:42

graduating top equal of her

15:44

year two years later when

15:46

she took her MA in

15:49

English language and literature. Wow,

15:51

wow. I put that down

15:54

to the teacher who originally

15:56

taught of the English. No,

15:58

I played a very... role

16:01

in everything in Romania. She

16:03

was an extremely bright person.

16:06

She actually met and married

16:08

her German professor in Edinburgh

16:10

during her student years there.

16:13

She was two years in

16:15

Edinburgh and she went back

16:17

to Germany with him. and

16:20

then from there after a

16:22

few years she emigrated to

16:25

the United States of America

16:27

and she had a stellar

16:29

career in banking and in

16:32

business. Well, how did she

16:34

get out of Romania in

16:37

the first place? She was

16:39

one of three names I

16:41

gave to the cultural attaché

16:44

as potential recipients of scholarships

16:46

to spend a year abroad

16:49

in Britain. I

16:52

had to tell the culture

16:54

Latache of my relationship with

16:56

her because I didn't know

16:58

whether it would exclude her

17:00

being put forward as a

17:02

candidate or not, but he

17:04

told me that he was

17:06

glad I had told him

17:08

that. not to number the

17:10

candidates in terms of ranking

17:12

and that the decision would

17:14

be made by a committee

17:16

that I did not sit

17:18

on and it was the

17:20

responsibility of these candidates to

17:22

get their own passports from

17:24

the government if they were

17:26

chosen as the selected student.

17:28

Well she was ruled out

17:30

by the Romanian government as

17:32

the Romanian government as not

17:34

being a suitable candidate and

17:36

they gave her some paltry

17:38

excuse whatever it might have

17:40

been but her mother insisted

17:42

that she go and ask

17:45

for a travel passport you

17:47

could get in those days

17:49

there were three or four

17:51

different kinds of Romanian passport

17:53

it was the passport that

17:55

Germans or Jews could get

17:57

which got you out of

17:59

the country which never never

18:01

allowed you back into the country

18:03

again. So it was basically a one

18:06

basically a You could get

18:08

a passport. a which

18:10

allowed you you of the country

18:12

on an official tour tour

18:14

days or two weeks. two weeks

18:16

and she got one of

18:18

these passports, I understand. It

18:20

was a two a tour to Vienna

18:22

and she got that and she

18:24

got that passport. Vienna, went

18:26

to Vienna, went to Vienna,

18:29

stayed with I think family they

18:31

had in Vienna and

18:33

then came to London to London

18:36

and a Jewish refugee organization

18:38

helped her get refugee status

18:40

in Britain, closed

18:42

her with second with second-hand

18:44

her a small allowance her

18:46

a And allowance and then

18:49

got into Edinburgh and

18:51

she was was partially financed

18:54

by relatives in

18:56

the United States. States. So

18:59

that's how she how she But

19:01

why out. But the she

19:03

applied for the passport, it was

19:06

very interesting, because there

19:08

are always dolls within

19:10

dolls in Romania. and

19:12

I'm sorry that my stories are

19:14

dolls within dolls, but

19:16

I have to go I have

19:18

to go back to a point

19:20

where I voluntarily taught an

19:22

evening class at what was called

19:24

the... university in

19:26

Bucharest. And

19:29

in that class, there

19:31

were or eight seven or eight

19:33

students, of all of whom were working.

19:35

It was an evening class. It was

19:38

for working people. for And one of

19:40

the students, a of the his a came

19:42

to me after the first

19:45

class to and said, the first class and

19:47

said, Professor the am of

19:49

a factory some

19:51

distance away in Alexandria

19:53

away in Alexandria. can't come to class.

19:55

come to class every week. Would

19:58

you meet me every now and again? in town

20:00

and bring me up to

20:02

date on what I've missed.

20:04

Well, life in Romania was

20:06

lonely and so I was

20:08

always happy to visit, to

20:10

have somebody, to have coffee

20:12

with somebody and this was

20:14

my second year and I

20:16

had been open to these

20:18

kinds of approaches. So I

20:21

started meeting him in a

20:23

cafe in downtown Bucharest. found

20:25

out about this, I must

20:27

have mentioned it to her,

20:29

and she said, I would

20:31

like to see him. First

20:33

of all, how can you

20:35

do that? Well, next time

20:37

you're going to meet him

20:39

in the cafe, tell me

20:41

where it is, when, I

20:43

will come into the cafe,

20:45

I will buy a cake,

20:47

and I will leave again,

20:49

don't recognize me, I won't

20:51

greet you, I just want

20:53

to see him. And Romanians

20:55

made all kinds of strange

20:57

requests. and sometimes it was

20:59

wise to give in to

21:01

them because they didn't make

21:03

requests lightly. So that's what

21:05

she did. I told her

21:07

when I was going to

21:09

meet Alexander from Alexandria, we

21:11

called him, and when she

21:13

came in, bought something, left

21:15

again. When

21:18

she was interviewed by

21:20

Securitati for her passport,

21:23

she walked into the

21:25

Securitati officer's office and

21:28

it was Alexander in

21:30

a major's uniform. Wow.

22:32

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my car on Carvana. Dropping it off

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me about it months ago. I just.

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22:46

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love. Come on, what are we waiting for? Ah,

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Schefter reports the but

24:18

she made for a building on

24:20

the corner of the park which

24:22

was a beautiful building. It was

24:24

a cross between a mason's lodge

24:26

and a western church. A very

24:28

beautiful building. I had passed it

24:31

many times and was puzzled as

24:33

to what it might be. There

24:35

was always a guard at the

24:37

door. Well,

24:40

she walked past the guard into

24:42

this building and disappeared downstairs and

24:44

the interior of all buildings in

24:46

Bucharest were very ill-lit in those

24:49

days. So, my thought... I've no

24:51

idea where she's going, but I'm

24:53

going to go in as well.

24:56

And I knew how to walk

24:58

past the guard. You walked past

25:00

with your head held high, and

25:03

you called him comrade and looked

25:05

at his eyes so that he

25:07

looked away and walked quickly past

25:09

him. And usually if you called

25:12

somebody comrade, they thought that you

25:14

might probably a member of the

25:16

Communist Party, and so they didn't

25:19

interfere with you. Well

25:21

I got down the stairs

25:23

into a long marble passage

25:26

ill-lit and I couldn't see

25:28

any doors in the passage

25:30

I could see in the

25:33

darkness squares on the walls

25:35

and there was M waiting

25:37

for me and she asked

25:40

me a ridiculous question she

25:42

said you know where you

25:44

are And

25:46

I said, I said, no,

25:49

I have no idea where

25:51

I am. And she said,

25:53

this is the Sanusha. And

25:55

I didn't know the word

25:57

Sanusha. I knew it had

26:00

a relationship to Ash. means

26:02

ashes. And she said, this

26:04

is the columbarium where the

26:06

urns are kept from people

26:08

who have been cremated. And

26:11

this part we didn't know

26:13

is for Hungarian Jews. And

26:15

this is my father's plaque

26:17

on the wall, and she

26:19

showed me the plaque on

26:22

the wall where her father

26:24

had died. He had been

26:26

a communist party member, had

26:28

held an important position. in

26:31

Casa Scintaya, which was the

26:33

publishing house in Romania, and

26:35

had died very young. So

26:37

that was the time I

26:39

was afraid going down these

26:42

stairs into that darkness. I

26:44

thought, well, have they got

26:46

to her to a point

26:48

where she's giving me up

26:50

and I'm entering the Lubyanka?

26:53

That's what it felt like.

26:56

No, I can imagine. I

26:58

can imagine. And there's various

27:00

other characters who you become

27:02

friendly with during your second

27:04

time back in Romania. Can

27:07

you tell me about Dudu

27:09

Popescu? Yeah, Dudu Popescu. I

27:11

don't remember exactly how we

27:13

met, but he was definitely

27:16

not. an informant or securitate.

27:18

Shortly after we, he was

27:20

an engineer, he'd be in

27:22

his 40s, very intelligent, good

27:24

conversationalist, one of the few

27:27

people who would speak to

27:29

me continuously in Romanian and

27:31

not go into English because

27:33

he didn't speak any English.

27:36

He told me that he

27:38

had spent time in a

27:40

labour camp because when he

27:42

was a student, he had

27:44

made a comment one day

27:47

among his students to say

27:49

that he thought the United

27:51

States was as far advanced

27:53

as Russia was technologically and

27:56

he was arrested for the

27:58

and sentenced to two years

28:00

hard labor. He then worked

28:02

as a technician for a

28:04

few years before he was

28:07

allowed back into the university

28:09

and then he came back

28:11

to university, graduated and now

28:13

worked as an engineer in

28:16

a factory. And we became

28:18

very good friends. He, his

28:20

girlfriend and myself. And he

28:22

lived in a tiny one-room

28:24

in a building not far

28:27

from mine. And

28:29

we had a code where

28:31

we could contact one another

28:34

by telephone, always a public

28:36

telephone. He would never use

28:38

the telephone in my apartment.

28:41

And we would meet up

28:43

and do things together, go

28:45

to a park or go

28:48

and have a beer somewhere

28:50

in a park. Very enjoyable.

28:52

One day, he said to

28:55

me, Ron, I have managed

28:57

to buy a place. on

28:59

a government tour to Istanbul

29:02

and I'm not coming back

29:04

I'm going to defect and

29:06

I I want you I

29:09

can't tell my girlfriend because

29:11

she might be an informant

29:13

so I want you to

29:16

tell her When

29:18

you hear my name

29:20

on Radio Free Europe,

29:22

because you could listen

29:24

to defect these names

29:26

on Radio Free Europe

29:28

two or three weeks

29:30

after they had defected,

29:32

I want you to

29:34

tell Gabby that I

29:37

defected. So that was

29:39

a tough one actually.

29:41

Anyway. The day

29:43

came for due to

29:45

leave and I waited

29:48

for his name to

29:50

come up on Radio

29:52

Free Europe and I

29:55

waited and waited and

29:57

then I thought Maybe

30:00

he didn't leave at all, leave

30:02

so I called his apartment apartment

30:04

and no answer. I called

30:06

his I call this apartment. let let

30:08

it ring for the longest time time,

30:10

and Dudu do pick the phone up up.

30:12

We used our code, I met up I

30:15

met up with him. was a shadow

30:17

of his he was a shadow of

30:19

his former self. had He told

30:21

me what had happened. left, he had he

30:23

left. he had. And he had

30:25

sold everything he had, had. And he

30:27

had he had very little. So

30:30

his his room was

30:32

empty. And the night the

30:34

night before he left, officer came to

30:37

his came to his door door

30:39

at 11 knocked at his door at and 'clock

30:41

at night want to let him into

30:43

the didn't want to let him

30:45

into the apartment because his apartment was empty, it

30:47

it was obvious what was going to happen.

30:49

going to happen. The Securitati officer officer

30:51

insisted on coming into his

30:53

apartment. didn't bat

30:55

an eyelid that he saw that the

30:57

apartment was empty told

31:00

that when he he was

31:02

in Istanbul, what what they wanted him

31:04

to do do was to report on

31:06

the movements of every other member of

31:08

the group that he was with. with

31:10

and of of course Dudu said of

31:12

of course I will do that. but then

31:14

when Dudu then to the got to

31:16

the airport was going through the he was

31:18

going through the final security check. go

31:21

And he was told, not go home, the not going

31:23

on the trip. it you've had it so

31:25

he had it. So he went back to an

31:27

empty apartment. And

31:30

that was the story of was

31:32

the story of him. It broke

31:34

him, never seen anybody so I've never seen

31:36

anybody so broken in my

31:38

life as Dudu after that. And

31:41

then he desperately had to

31:43

go about trying to buy his

31:45

things back buy his wouldn't know

31:47

that he had intended to defect.

31:49

know when he was in Istanbul.

31:51

intended to defect when he was

31:54

in many names

31:56

here, many names here. Harold

31:58

Mesh. Yes,

32:00

Harold Mesh was a professor

32:02

at at Bucharest University. professor

32:05

of American Poetry, he

32:08

was a Romanian, Saxon, ethnically

32:10

he was a he was a Saxon

32:12

there were many minorities in

32:14

Romania and he he was a Saxon

32:17

from Transylvania from a town

32:19

called a town called and his

32:21

wife wife had, he became became friends

32:23

with me. me at at his

32:25

request, and and his lived in

32:27

in Hermannstadt. C. Bue is the

32:29

the Romanian name for it,

32:32

and she had leukemia. And she had

32:34

been given had been given permission

32:36

to go to West in

32:38

the future get treatment. She was going

32:40

to die, get treatment she was going to

32:42

die but she was She being

32:44

sent to be Germany. She was going

32:46

to be invited to West Germany

32:48

by relatives so that she could

32:50

get treatment in West Germany. And

32:53

he desperately wanted to accompany her

32:55

to West Germany. So he

32:57

may have made friends with me. with

32:59

me be an informant in order to

33:01

gain points to get to go to West

33:04

Germany, go but these are things that you

33:06

didn't think about, and I still put them

33:08

to one side, but I'm just saying

33:10

that because these were always the doubts that

33:12

were in your mind. saying

33:14

that was an absolute

33:16

delight of a person. were in

33:18

your mind. Hurl was an asked

33:21

me delight of a person. He

33:23

asked me to spend the

33:25

year in Hermannstadt. And

33:28

I did, I spent

33:30

I spent a of 1968,

33:32

1969. with a group of a

33:34

group of Romanian

33:37

Saxon men, his father

33:39

was father was one of

33:41

them and they had all spent spent

33:44

time in Soviet goulags,

33:47

Soviet work camps, because

33:49

what had

33:51

happened was happened was

33:53

Romania had started

33:55

off supporting the

33:58

Germans, and the minority

34:00

were taken off the men, were taken

34:02

off to fight for the Germans. off to

34:04

fight for the Germans in Europe.

34:07

Europe. And his his father these

34:09

other men with him had been had been

34:12

prisoner at the end of the war

34:14

by the Americans war by the then had been

34:16

allowed to return to Romania. to But

34:18

as soon as they got back to

34:20

Romania, they were picked up by the

34:22

Russians they taken up by

34:24

the pay for taken to pay for damage up

34:26

into the Soviet Union to

34:28

rebuild cities and and and whatever

34:30

it was. They had been gone

34:32

10 years. had didn't know his

34:34

father for 10 years. didn't

34:37

know his father for him, I

34:39

had him I had some absolutely wonderful

34:41

experiences I would never

34:43

ever have had access

34:45

to to I not not allowed

34:48

myself to be open to that

34:50

kind of invitation. I

34:53

think I've said this before but this

34:55

is what makes the book is so

34:57

many the book. There's so in

34:59

here like stories within stories

35:01

like you said within stories, one

35:03

I wanted to And you

35:05

about was one I wanted to ask you

35:08

about was Dino Sandalescu.

35:10

Dino one of my

35:12

closest friends my closest

35:15

he defected he defected. Dino

35:17

was a a professor at

35:19

Bucharest University, he He approached

35:21

me to become friends with

35:23

him. with him. We

35:26

friends. and he was a was

35:29

a member. He wasn't a He

35:31

wasn't a representative for

35:33

the faculty, was an independent

35:36

an independent and he told

35:38

me he was member very

35:40

interesting man, very highly educated,

35:42

as man, very highly of the

35:44

professors as knew all of the professors

35:46

that I knew there. I

35:50

guess the important thing is that

35:52

thing is that when I left

35:54

1969, I went to went

35:56

to Edinburgh and did

35:58

a... a postgraduate

36:01

degree and then was given a

36:03

position in Newcastle upon Tyne. He

36:05

called me at my office in

36:08

Newcastle upon Tyne in about the

36:10

early 70s and he said, Ron,

36:12

I am in Helsinki. I'm going

36:14

to defect. I'm on an official

36:17

mission with a group of communists

36:19

in Helsinki. I'm going to defect.

36:21

We've got to work out a

36:23

plan for me. His

36:26

plan was to defect to

36:29

Britain, which would not have

36:31

been a good idea because

36:33

he had been the recipient

36:36

of a professorial scholarship a

36:38

few years earlier. And had

36:40

he defected to Britain, he

36:43

would have been given sanctuary,

36:45

he would have been given,

36:47

what is it called, amnesty,

36:50

refugee status, but it would

36:52

have damaged the cultural exchange

36:55

program. So we

36:57

discussed Sweden which was much

36:59

closer, much easier for him

37:01

to get to and would

37:04

accept him very willingly. So

37:06

I had a good friend

37:09

in Uppsala who would be

37:11

able to offer him a

37:13

position, a researcher's job. So

37:16

Dino flew to Stockholm then

37:18

to Uppsala. got a job

37:20

with a friend of mine

37:23

in Uppsala and we remained

37:25

in contact for many years.

37:27

He built himself an international

37:30

reputation as a Joyceian scholar.

37:32

He was brilliant and he's

37:34

written some of the most

37:37

important books on James Joyce.

37:39

But we met up regularly.

37:41

I visited him in Sweden.

37:44

He visited me in England

37:46

and in Scotland. And

37:48

one day he said to

37:51

me, Ron, you'll never guess.

37:53

I have an uncle who

37:55

left Romania in the 1930s.

37:57

He was a chemical engineer.

38:00

He made a fortune in

38:02

France with patents and he

38:04

has just died and left

38:06

me all his money. Must

38:09

have been a big fortune.

38:11

Dino didn't mention how much

38:13

it was, but he said,

38:15

I'm going to live in

38:17

his house in Nice. So

38:20

Dino moved to Nice and

38:22

then shortly after, he decided

38:24

to move to Monaco because

38:26

he didn't have to pay

38:29

any tax in Monaco. And

38:31

Romanians had a thing about

38:33

not being controlled by the

38:35

government. So he left government

38:37

controlled France for free Monaco.

38:40

And in Monaco, he met

38:42

Anthony Burgess, the novelist, and

38:44

he became close friends. Anthony

38:46

Burgess, brilliant man, Dino, brilliant

38:48

man. They became very good

38:51

friends. And Anthony Burgess introduced

38:53

him to Prince Raine. And

38:55

he became friends with Prince

38:57

Raine. And Prince Rania

39:00

invited Dino to be one

39:02

of the founders of the

39:04

Princess Grace Memorial Library. Apparently,

39:06

after she died, Prince Rania

39:08

didn't know how to glorify

39:11

her life or to remember

39:13

her. And Anthony Burgess said,

39:15

well, she's got all these

39:17

Irish manuscripts, why don't you

39:19

set up a library? And

39:21

so Dino's job. became, he

39:23

called himself George in those

39:26

days. When he moved to

39:28

France, he called himself George

39:30

Sandulescu. George Dino became the

39:32

librarian, established the library, and

39:34

of course with his background

39:36

in James Joyce and Samuel

39:39

Beckett, he turned the library

39:41

into a centre for Irish

39:43

studies, Irish literary studies. And

39:45

Dino became known throughout the

39:47

world as running the annual

39:49

Best Joyceian Convention. Monaco. And

39:52

I visited him there as

39:54

well. I was fortunate enough.

39:56

He invited me to spend

39:58

some time there and the

40:00

library was in the palace.

40:02

So I got into the

40:04

palace, into the library, and

40:07

have a photograph taken at

40:09

the director of the library's

40:11

desk there. Wow, wow. Well,

40:13

now one of the characters

40:15

that does intrigue me is

40:17

the one who was teaching

40:20

English language at a spy

40:22

school. Oh, TB Stoyan, yes.

40:24

Again, TB contacted, made the

40:26

first move and contacted me.

40:28

Usually what people did was

40:30

they found out what my

40:33

timetable was at the university,

40:35

which was easy to do,

40:37

it was posted up on

40:39

a wall, and then they

40:41

could watch me leave class

40:43

and then follow me in

40:45

the street and once they

40:48

would fire enough away they

40:50

would approach me and introduce

40:52

themselves and that's what TB

40:54

did. TB approached me. Usually

40:56

they had some little request

40:58

to make of you, it

41:01

was to translate something for

41:03

them or to to help

41:05

him in some way and

41:07

you knew that was just

41:09

the first step towards a

41:11

friendship or a further request.

41:14

Well, when I got to

41:16

know Tiberio, I discovered that

41:18

he told me he taught,

41:20

he spoke English as well

41:22

as you or me, but

41:24

he spoke with an RP

41:26

accent. He spoke with a

41:29

public school accent. He had

41:31

never lived in the West,

41:33

but this was not uncommon.

41:35

The Romanians mastered the language

41:37

100%. You would swear that

41:39

they had been brought up

41:42

in Buckingham Palace sometimes. Anyway,

41:44

TB told me that he

41:46

wanted to work for the

41:48

BBC. That was his ambition.

41:50

could I help him? It's

41:52

amazing how people thought that

41:55

you could help them just

41:57

because you came from the

41:59

West. I had no contact

42:01

with that kind of dog.

42:03

But he also told me

42:05

that he taught in a

42:07

school for spies in Bucharest.

42:10

Now, I've got no way

42:12

of knowing that. I've got

42:14

no reason to disbelieve him.

42:16

I've got no reason why

42:18

he even told me that

42:20

he worked for spies. But

42:23

when I left, as I

42:25

say, a few years passed

42:27

and I had lost contact

42:29

with TB, But one day

42:31

I got a call from

42:33

a hospital, a mental hospital

42:36

in England, saying that Tiberio

42:38

Stoyan wanted to contact me

42:40

and could they give him

42:42

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site for more details. And I

43:50

asked what the situation was,

43:52

and they said this is

43:54

a mental institution, he has

43:56

been committed to this institution

43:58

temporarily, because he landed it,

44:00

he threw airport. when he

44:02

approached the immigration official and

44:04

was asked for his passport,

44:07

he said, I'm free and

44:09

started dancing around and making

44:11

an exhibition of himself. So

44:13

he's been taken into custody

44:15

until we find out about

44:17

him. So I

44:19

was in, I was a little

44:21

bit worried because I didn't know

44:23

whether maybe he'd come out as

44:25

a securitate officer and maybe his

44:28

job was to become an infiltrator

44:30

in the West. So I had

44:32

known way of knowing whether or

44:34

not he had told the British

44:36

authorities that he'd worked in the

44:38

spy school. Obviously an important piece

44:40

of information. So I asked to

44:42

speak to the psychiatrist in charge

44:45

and I told the psychiatrist in

44:47

charge who I was. I told

44:49

him that Tibi had, as far

44:51

as I knew, had taught in

44:53

the spy school in Bucharest and

44:55

that that should be added to

44:57

his dossier and it Julie was.

44:59

He was released from the mental

45:01

institution and came to stay with

45:04

me in Newcastle upon time for

45:06

some time. was terribly disappointed with

45:08

the standard of living. I had

45:10

a semi-detached house and many Romanians

45:12

thought that everybody in the West

45:14

lived in a mansion, a beautiful

45:16

mansion and had a big car.

45:18

I didn't even have a car.

45:20

And he was quite taken aback.

45:23

He said, why are you living

45:25

here? Why are you not living

45:27

in a nicer house and where's

45:29

your car? And I had to

45:31

explain to him that life in

45:33

the West especially in Newcastle's one

45:35

time wasn't easy there were lots

45:37

of unemployment in that time it

45:40

was the early 70s and my

45:42

salary was I think it was

45:44

two thousand and twenty five pounds

45:46

a year which was not very

45:48

much money it allowed me to

45:50

pay a mortgage that was about

45:52

it but TB didn't like Britain

45:54

very much and he couldn't get

45:56

a job with the BBC so

45:59

he left for and

46:01

got a job with Radio

46:03

Free Europe. Wow. Well, Evan

46:05

Denish, is that pronounced? Evan

46:07

Denish, most interesting person of

46:09

all. He was introduced to

46:11

me by M's mother. She

46:13

said, we have a friend

46:15

who is a novelist, a

46:17

member of the writers and

46:20

artists union. He really wants

46:22

to meet you. would you

46:24

be willing to meet him?

46:26

And I said that I

46:28

would and so they made

46:30

an arrangement whereby I met

46:32

him separately in a park

46:34

and Ivan was a little

46:36

guy like me. I'm 5

46:38

foot 7. Ivan was about

46:40

5 foot 7. He was

46:42

a little, he was a

46:45

bit older than I was

46:47

maybe 10 or 15 years

46:49

older. One of the most

46:51

interesting people I have ever

46:53

met in my life spoke

46:55

fluent English German, Hungarian, Italian,

46:57

Romanian. He was a Hungarian

46:59

Jew who had found himself

47:01

on the wrong side of

47:03

the border after the Second

47:05

World War, and so had

47:07

simply learned Romanian and become

47:10

a journalist. He had been

47:12

a journalist, but he had

47:14

spent eight years in one

47:16

of the worst prisons in

47:18

Romania, Gertla, and he told

47:20

me about it. Much of

47:22

it was underground. The prisoners

47:24

were put underground for months

47:26

at a time. Eventually they

47:28

were allowed out one day

47:30

a week and he said

47:32

he used to get beaten

47:35

up on a Sunday by

47:37

the guards because he was

47:39

a little guy and the

47:41

guards used to get drunk

47:43

and he would pick on

47:45

a little guy to beat

47:47

up at the weekends to

47:49

have some fun. But

47:52

Ivan never asked me for anything. He

47:54

was one of these friends that you

47:57

just enjoyed being with. introduced

47:59

me to his wife.

48:01

to his it was It wife or

48:03

maybe even his third wife maybe even

48:06

was a Romanian She not a Jew. girl,

48:08

not a Jew. And he had a son,

48:10

Adam. and he lived lived

48:12

in an apartment one of one of

48:15

these enormous blocks on the

48:17

edge of the city which which

48:19

people were put before the buildings

48:21

were even finished, before there

48:23

were roads, before they were even

48:25

were even buildings. You had to

48:27

walk through mud about a foot

48:29

deep to get to these buildings.

48:31

It was unbelievable the conditions

48:34

that they they under. Anyway, he

48:36

had an apartment to himself, his

48:38

wife to his son. his wife

48:40

and his son. And I

48:42

one of his fellow prisoners there.

48:45

there in his house again,

48:47

very interesting situation, but

48:50

But was interested

48:52

in invited to

48:55

Being invited Embassy cultural

48:57

parties because cultural

49:00

parties because interesting people came

49:02

from Britain. to visit

49:04

and even the cultural exchange

49:06

through the Right of an always

49:08

interested in interesting people asked,

49:10

I think editor of the

49:12

I think it was

49:14

a supplement.

49:16

I Times that was what it was,

49:19

I think that to it

49:21

was, was coming to visit.

49:23

heard about heard about

49:25

it the Right of an Artist Union

49:27

and asked if I could

49:30

arrange a meeting with that

49:32

that him. for him.

49:34

was a difficult thing to

49:36

do because I didn't like asking

49:38

do because I didn't like asking Tony Mann

49:40

for favors. Ivan was a

49:42

good friend. a good I

49:44

knew that knew that the literary

49:47

editor be very impressed by

49:49

Ivan. by He was a well

49:51

novelist in Romania. in Romania he

49:53

was a a very intelligent and

49:55

educated person. person. So

49:57

allowed me two hours on a Sunday

49:59

morning. alone with this

50:01

gentleman and we decided

50:03

to we decided to meet up

50:06

in Park in a in a restaurant

50:08

in Herestrao Park. Well, after

50:10

taking after taking all

50:12

the precautions, caution. would walk

50:14

by the that Ivan would walk by

50:16

the restaurant check or four times, check everybody

50:18

in it, and then he came in

50:20

and sat down. he and he only

50:22

stayed for 20 minutes. After

50:24

all the all the effort I I

50:26

had made, Ivan got up suddenly and

50:29

left. and said Rectoro. When I

50:31

to go. to him the When

50:33

I spoke to him the following day

50:35

and said all the all the trouble I had

50:37

taken he left so abruptly He

50:40

said something that really showed

50:42

how Romanians perceived

50:45

perceived themselves, Hungarians, perceived themselves,

50:47

how how Central European

50:49

perceived themselves, they knew

50:51

their own value. knew

50:53

their he said to

50:56

me, And he said to me,

50:58

think I've read. I have read all literature. literature.

51:01

So the the editor of

51:03

the literary supplement. But

51:06

the difference between us is he

51:08

has read it in translation. it in I've

51:10

read it in the original. it in the

51:12

I don't waste my time with people who have

51:14

to read. people have

51:16

translation. literature in

51:18

translation. Well, brilliant,

51:20

brilliant. Now, how do you end

51:23

up do you end up

51:25

being invited to a party

51:27

party at a Romanian Communist

51:29

Party lodge? lodge? Yep,

51:32

I I ask myself that

51:34

that well. I have no

51:36

idea why no idea why Sika Stavoyu

51:38

and his wife made

51:41

friends with me. To this

51:43

day, I don't understand

51:45

it. understand it. But I to spend

51:47

a few days skiing

51:49

in skiing in Sinai the

51:51

the Carpathians I was

51:54

Staying in a villa, by

51:56

myself, again, no friends

51:58

around, friends around, and the... in the

52:01

villa said, there's a villa I

52:03

clean for and these people would

52:05

invite you to a party if

52:07

you're interested. I said, well I'm

52:10

a Westerner, they wouldn't want to

52:12

invite a Western, she said, oh

52:14

no no, these people don't mind

52:17

you being a Westerner. So I

52:19

thought, okay, sure. So she came

52:21

back that night and she said,

52:23

you're invited to a party tomorrow

52:26

night in their house. And that's

52:28

the villa up there. It was

52:30

a private villa. It wasn't one

52:33

of the ones where you could

52:35

simply buy a bed for the

52:37

night. And I got to the

52:39

villa. I'd never seen anything like

52:42

it in Romania before. There were

52:44

all Romanians. There were obviously securitati,

52:46

armed securitati officers there at the

52:48

door and inside the house and

52:51

everybody was drinking and smoking western

52:53

cigarettes and drinking whiskey and they

52:55

had bottles on the tables. It

52:58

was something seekest of why you

53:00

was the host and his wife

53:02

Annie and I couldn't get over

53:04

it and they were perfectly willing

53:07

to speak to me, perfectly willing

53:09

to put up with my poor

53:11

Romanian. They saw me as a

53:14

kind of an extra bit of

53:16

prestige at their party. They had

53:18

got a Westerner to their party

53:20

and they had come up from

53:23

Bucharest in a chauffeur-driven limousine and

53:25

the chauffeur was simply waiting for

53:27

them for days until they went

53:30

back to Bucharest. Well I had

53:32

to go back the following day

53:34

and I was going to take

53:36

the early train and I said

53:39

to Annie and Sika, I'm going

53:41

to leave now because I've got

53:43

a train to catch. And she

53:46

said, a train? You travel my

53:48

train? I said, yes I do.

53:50

And she said, oh no, no,

53:52

no, we've got a chauffeur-driven car.

53:55

He'll take you down there and

53:57

he'll come back for us. And

53:59

so they put me in a

54:01

chauffeur-driven I don't know, it was

54:04

a zim, a ziffor, a chai

54:06

kai, I think it was a

54:08

chai kai. Great, big, beautiful, Russian

54:11

car, and I was sitting in

54:13

the back with these curtains drawn

54:15

around me, being driven by a

54:17

chafur, a Romanian chafur, down to

54:20

my apartment. It was unbelievable. But

54:22

Sika would call me after that

54:24

and make an arrangement. for me

54:27

to meet his wife. Annie, he

54:29

never turned up, but she and

54:31

I would have coffee together down

54:33

in the old part, the old

54:36

town of Bucharest. And she was

54:38

a delightful companion. She was also

54:40

a very attractive woman and she

54:43

always put up with my Romanian.

54:45

She allowed me to speak in

54:47

Romanian without interrupting me or trying

54:49

to speak in a foreign language,

54:52

which was what I was seeking.

54:55

And she said one day,

54:57

you're invited to a party

54:59

at our house in Bucharest

55:01

and then to a duck

55:03

shoot in at Lake Snagoff

55:05

the day after. And I

55:07

thought, my goodness, why? I'd

55:09

never gone to, I'd never

55:11

shot a duck. I'd been

55:13

a beater in Scotland where

55:15

I had accompanied guns and

55:17

they were shooting grouse or

55:19

they were shooting pheasants and

55:21

I was the one doing

55:23

the beating. doing the raising

55:25

of the birds, but I'd

55:27

never fired a shotgun in

55:29

my life. I'd been in

55:31

the British Army, but the

55:33

shotgun was the one arm

55:35

that we never used. We

55:37

used every other arm that

55:39

the British infantry used from

55:41

revolver to rocket launchers and

55:43

everything in between, but I'd

55:45

never shot a shotgun in

55:47

my life. Anyway, she told

55:49

me how to get to

55:52

their house, give me the

55:54

address. and she told me

55:56

how to dress for the

55:58

for the hunt the next

56:00

so I wasn't going dressed

56:02

for a party I was

56:04

going dressed for the hunt

56:06

and I got to this

56:08

house and again there were

56:10

guards on the door outside

56:12

there were militia in the

56:14

street outside and inside again

56:16

there were armed guards in

56:18

civilian clothes inside the house

56:20

and there were photographs around

56:22

the wall and I could

56:24

recognize some of the photographs.

56:26

One of them I remember

56:28

was of the strikers outside

56:30

the Garada Nord back in

56:32

the, I think it must

56:34

have been the 30s, when

56:36

the Communist Party was getting

56:38

going and there were strikes

56:40

in Bucharest and she pointed

56:42

her father out in one

56:44

of the photographs and she

56:46

even showed me his walking

56:48

stick which was a sword

56:50

stick. you'll probably remember the

56:52

mine remember the sword stick

56:54

from which was a stick

56:56

was a sword yeah a

56:58

long rod actually a steel

57:00

rod which would be lethal

57:03

inside a stick and that

57:05

was her father's stick anyway

57:07

the party was again very

57:10

unusual, very interesting for

57:12

me, and I was

57:14

given a bed for

57:16

a few hours so

57:18

that I could rest,

57:20

and then before dawn

57:22

we drove out to

57:24

Lake Snagoff to a

57:26

private estate, a private

57:29

hunting estate on Lake

57:31

Snagoff for communist party

57:33

members, and the one

57:35

instruction I got from

57:37

a... Zika

57:39

was, do not speak Romanian. I

57:41

don't want people to know that

57:43

you're not Romanian. So I didn't

57:46

open my mouth. And we got

57:48

into the hunting lodge, which was

57:50

luxurious, had boar heads, antlers around

57:53

the walls. There was breakfast for

57:55

us. was was which

57:57

is the plum

58:00

brandy that they

58:02

drank there, that they

58:04

drank there. And were

58:06

there were gamekeepers or ghillies.

58:09

They had the shotguns. He gave

58:11

gave us our shotgun.

58:13

They gave us cartridges for the shotgun.

58:16

for the shotgun. We had them broken open

58:18

and the cartridges were in our pockets.

58:20

They weren't loaded when we went

58:22

into the boats. loaded when and I went

58:24

into a boat with a ghillie and

58:26

I other guests went a gilly a boat

58:28

with a ghillie as well. again And

58:30

we sat out there for hours

58:32

in the freezing cold dawn hours for

58:35

the ducks to come in. the

58:37

ducks to come in to feed. And again,

58:39

a Again, a fascinating experience for

58:41

me. We fired off

58:43

a few rounds, didn't get anything.

58:45

get came back for came

58:48

back for a snack at

58:50

the Snagoff Again, I

58:52

have no idea why I

58:54

was invited, idea but it

58:57

was a wonderful experience. Wow.

59:00

So, Wow. Seeker and so sort of

59:02

almost Annie were sort of almost

59:05

like Communist Party

59:07

royalty. told me that

59:09

her me that her father...

59:12

if understood her correctly,

59:14

correctly, had been a senior

59:17

officer in when

59:19

it had been set up when it

59:21

had been the up or

59:23

during the communist regime. had had a

59:25

had had a very high

59:27

position in Sakuritati. And

59:30

apparently her her

59:33

mother and she had

59:35

inherited all the privileges the

59:37

went with went with being

59:39

family of a

59:41

of a senior security officer.

59:43

That's how I I understood

59:45

it, but I could, I never, in

59:47

Romania, you never got

59:49

to the never got to the

59:51

bottom of things. You really were

59:54

certain you you had fully

59:56

understood. what was was going on the

59:58

the subtext was. a great day.

1:00:00

because Romanians were very good at

1:00:02

saying things to you. and

1:00:05

and expecting to you to interpret it

1:00:07

in a slightly different way way

1:00:09

the words the being used. were

1:00:11

I was pretty good at that.

1:00:13

I never put my foot. never

1:00:15

put my mouth in my anybody

1:00:17

else's mouth when I was

1:00:19

there. mouth when I was but I always had

1:00:21

the feeling that I never that

1:00:24

I never understood. what

1:00:28

was going on. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:00:30

made it best guess. guess. can No,

1:00:32

I can, I can It

1:00:34

sounds It sounds like there's

1:00:36

a lot of ambiguity

1:00:39

when they say something. when they

1:00:41

say something. Yes. It's for to interpret.

1:00:43

Now, the last thing thing that

1:00:46

I wanted to to about

1:00:48

was your encounter with some

1:00:50

tanks. Oh, yes,

1:00:52

that was yes that was the most

1:00:54

frightening experience at the time that I that

1:00:56

I had there. It had there it was are

1:00:59

um... romanians people. You people always

1:01:01

felt that they they were steps

1:01:04

ahead of me but this

1:01:06

was was one moment which I

1:01:08

which I felt I thought fast enough

1:01:10

thought fast enough out get myself out

1:01:12

of a difficult situation. An English friend

1:01:14

of mine, of a lawyer in the

1:01:16

city of London of London, came

1:01:18

out to Romania for a -week

1:01:21

holiday. holiday. very to be

1:01:23

behind to be behind I put

1:01:25

on curtain. So had the I had the

1:01:27

car for a couple of weeks

1:01:29

a I put on a very

1:01:31

extensive I for him. extensive

1:01:34

to mention him and I where

1:01:36

we were going. to M where

1:01:39

we were going came back to

1:01:41

me and said, to me mother and I

1:01:43

come with you? I come with

1:01:45

you on the tour? Again, Why?

1:01:49

I find that I

1:01:51

find that inexplicable. I said

1:01:53

said they they could come. So

1:01:55

we picked them up at

1:01:57

the up at of the North.

1:02:00

at their house and

1:02:02

eventually we ended up

1:02:05

we went up as

1:02:07

far as the Soviet

1:02:10

border at a place

1:02:12

called Siret and where

1:02:15

that's in Bukovina where

1:02:17

the where the

1:02:19

painted monasteries are. So I was

1:02:22

taking Howard, my lawyer friend, and

1:02:24

M and her mother to see

1:02:26

the painted monasteries. They had already

1:02:28

seen them, but Howard had not.

1:02:31

Well, we got to see Rhett,

1:02:33

and there was the, there was

1:02:35

the, uh, the

1:02:38

entry exit point into the

1:02:40

Soviet Union, but we couldn't

1:02:42

see anything very well. And

1:02:44

Howard said to me, could

1:02:46

we find a road that

1:02:48

goes up the hill a

1:02:50

little bit so that we

1:02:52

can look into the Soviet

1:02:54

Union, I'd like to see

1:02:57

it? So sure enough, I

1:02:59

found a side road that

1:03:01

seemed to be going a

1:03:03

little bit uphill, and unfortunately

1:03:05

the road deteriorated into a

1:03:07

track, a muddy track, a

1:03:09

gravel track, And suddenly we

1:03:11

came round a bend and

1:03:13

I was faced with a

1:03:15

group of tanks dug into

1:03:18

the ground in battle position

1:03:20

with their turrets, their guns

1:03:22

facing the northern border, facing

1:03:24

the border with the Soviet

1:03:26

Union. They were all disguised.

1:03:28

They had camouflaged netting over

1:03:30

them. and slowly I could

1:03:32

see there were there was

1:03:34

a headquarters tent camouflage there

1:03:36

as well and the soldiers

1:03:39

was it was quite early

1:03:41

in the morning I think

1:03:43

and the soldiers were hanging

1:03:45

about and the officer in

1:03:47

charge was shaving in a

1:03:49

mirror stuck on a tree

1:03:51

and I thought my God

1:03:53

what have I got myself

1:03:55

into in with the gardens

1:03:57

we had done one opera

1:03:59

tanks and I had seen

1:04:02

how tanks when they come

1:04:04

to the position that they

1:04:06

want to hold, they can

1:04:08

spin their tracks in reverse

1:04:10

and dig themselves a little

1:04:12

bit deeper into the ground

1:04:14

to lower their profile and

1:04:16

just have their gun turret

1:04:18

above the level of the

1:04:20

ground and their visual abilities

1:04:23

as well. And so I

1:04:25

knew exactly what I was

1:04:27

looking at and I knew

1:04:29

I shouldn't be there. This

1:04:31

was something I should never

1:04:33

see. So immediately I stopped

1:04:35

the car, I said to

1:04:37

Howard, give me your passport.

1:04:39

I said to the ghettos,

1:04:41

do not look out of

1:04:44

the window. do not

1:04:46

open your mouse!" And I got out of

1:04:48

the car with the passports in one hand,

1:04:50

the other hand opened to show it was

1:04:52

empty, and the soldiers were totally taken by

1:04:54

surprise, but the officer quickly wiped his face,

1:04:56

put on his battle dress jacket, and came

1:04:58

forward with his pistol with his revolver in

1:05:00

his hand, and I took the initiative and

1:05:03

I said in a very loud voice, we

1:05:05

are lost. We are tourists. I'm taking this

1:05:07

friend of mine from Bucharest on a visit

1:05:09

of your beautiful country. I'm a professor from

1:05:11

Bucharest University. How do we get to see

1:05:13

her at? So that was what our training

1:05:15

sergeant had told us. In a difficult situation,

1:05:17

take the initiative and don't let the other

1:05:19

person get a step ahead of you. So

1:05:22

he took my passports, went off to the

1:05:24

tent, which was obviously the communications tent, came

1:05:26

back to me and said, your passports are

1:05:28

not diplomatic passports, yet you're driving in diplomatic

1:05:30

car. Why? So I explained to him, explained

1:05:32

who they was, he checked again

1:05:34

and was satisfied because the

1:05:36

the security team knew

1:05:38

where any any CD plates

1:05:41

any any given time They

1:05:43

had a way of had a

1:05:45

way of tracking them

1:05:47

what you do he said

1:05:49

okay what you do

1:05:51

is you turn your

1:05:53

car around you drive

1:05:55

to by and you'll be

1:05:57

met by the militia

1:06:00

you. So we what they

1:06:02

tell you so we

1:06:04

drove to we were didn't

1:06:06

know whether we were

1:06:08

going to be arrested the

1:06:10

militia or not or not.

1:06:12

drove in silence we

1:06:14

got got to Siret. militia waiting

1:06:16

for us us. They checked the

1:06:19

the car the the

1:06:21

boot of the car

1:06:23

and said okay now you

1:06:25

drive to, I think it

1:06:27

was Bradaot's, stop there, there be

1:06:29

will be more militia

1:06:31

and they did that two

1:06:33

two or three towns

1:06:35

until we got to

1:06:38

maybe su somewhere like

1:06:40

that and then the and

1:06:42

chava said okay okay, you

1:06:44

can go back to

1:06:46

to Bucharest now. been checked

1:06:48

away from this sensitive

1:06:50

area but that was

1:06:52

the most the most. I i

1:06:54

think was the was the

1:06:57

most most proud of

1:06:59

that moment in my

1:07:01

entire two years in

1:07:03

romania because i took

1:07:05

the initiative and explained

1:07:07

very quickly to the

1:07:09

officer who i was

1:07:11

what we were asked for

1:07:13

his for his help

1:07:16

to get out of

1:07:18

it The episode

1:07:20

extras such as videos photos and other

1:07:22

content are available via a link

1:07:24

in the episode information The podcast

1:07:26

podcast wouldn't exist without the generous

1:07:28

efforts of our financial supporters

1:07:30

and i'd like to thank one

1:07:33

and all of them for

1:07:35

keeping the podcast on the road

1:07:37

Cold War cold war conversation

1:07:39

continues in our group just group just

1:07:41

search for cold war conversations

1:07:43

in Thanks very much very much for

1:07:45

listening and look forward to seeing

1:07:47

you next week Instead

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18th to December 1st and the Cyber

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hard. But I'll tell you a little I'll tell you

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a little secret. have It doesn't have to

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and it's great. You love love you seek

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it out and download it. You listen

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to it while driving, working out, cooking,

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even going to the bathroom. going to the bathroom.

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are a pretty close companion. And

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this is a podcast ad. Did I get

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your attention? You can reach

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great listeners like yourself with podcast

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advertising from from Libsin Choose from

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hundreds of top of offering host

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like this one across thousands of

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audience in their favorite your with in

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their Go to podcasts.com ads.com. -B -S -Y -N

1:09:29

that's libsyN today. today.