0:00

From Relay, this is connected.

0:02

Episode 543. Today's show is

0:04

brought to you by ECAM,

0:07

Netsuit, and Google Gemini.

0:09

I'm your annual chairman,

0:11

Federico Vittici, and it's

0:13

my pleasure to be

0:15

joined this week as

0:17

well, by the one

0:19

and only Stephen Hackett.

0:21

Hello, Steven. Hello, Federico.

0:23

We just did a I think an

0:25

interesting pre-show about Me making a

0:27

big life decision this year. So

0:29

yeah, you know connected pro members

0:31

should go check that out and

0:33

send me send me feedback about

0:35

it because it's a as you'll

0:38

hear it's an I think it's

0:40

an exciting time for me I'm

0:42

sure I will get my fair

0:44

share of critics, but I always

0:46

do but I think it's it's

0:48

more exciting than concerning so Go

0:50

check that out We have some follow-up,

0:52

Stephen, some really important follow-up. We

0:54

have some really important follow-up. I

0:56

do have one little housekeeping thing.

0:59

I'm going to slip in here. There's currently

1:01

work happening in my backyard, and I'm

1:03

doing my best to mute, and Jim

1:05

will do his best to clean it up.

1:07

So if you hear background noise on my

1:09

side, I apologize. It may not be to

1:11

a normal standard of quality, but

1:14

it cannot be helped. Okay, follow-up. Connor

1:16

wrote in. When this came in, I

1:18

immediately texted you a copy of this.

1:20

So Connor wrote. On November 17th, 2023,

1:22

that seems like a long time ago.

1:25

It is. I sent feedback to the

1:27

show about buying a bridge keyboard from

1:29

Best Buy. This was around the time

1:31

that Bridge was, I think, going out

1:34

of business, and then they got bought

1:36

by like a new company with

1:38

some of the old owners. I have

1:40

some link in the show notes you

1:42

can follow, Bridge's history. It was very

1:45

complicated. Back to Connor, I am here to

1:47

report that 16 months later, the keyboard

1:49

has imploded. The whole thing fell apart

1:51

spectacularly in a 24-hour period. This

1:53

led me to the realization

1:55

that all iPad keyboards have significant

1:58

compromises these days. So I bought

2:00

an aftermarket smart keyboard folio. Fingers

2:02

cross it holds up. I'll check

2:04

back in in a year. The

2:06

keyboard has imploded. What does that

2:09

mean? What does that mean? What

2:11

does that mean? Like you literally

2:13

imploded on it's like I am

2:15

so fascinated but and sorry about

2:17

whatever happened to Connor. This like

2:20

from an air from a podcast

2:22

an entertainment perspective sounds incredible. But

2:24

at the same time, I'm sorry,

2:26

Connor, that this happened. Maybe let

2:28

us know how it failed. Yeah.

2:31

In putting these links together for

2:33

the show notes, I also realize

2:35

that Bridge is, you know, there

2:37

are some entities, companies, people, brands,

2:39

whatever, who put why's in their

2:42

name for no reason. Like for

2:44

example what? I mean, nothing specific

2:46

comes in mind. I have a

2:48

feeling that people have done it.

2:50

It's kind of silly. It feels

2:53

like an early 2000s kind of

2:55

vibe. It does. Yeah, yeah. Like

2:57

having a website without the last

2:59

e in the name or having

3:01

I in front of your username.

3:04

Maybe you should actually consider rebranding

3:06

relay so that you don't use

3:08

the Y, you use the letter

3:10

I, so it becomes real AI,

3:12

real AI. So it's actually about

3:15

AI. It's a podcast network, about

3:17

AI. That, that will end well.

3:19

for you I'm sure I was

3:21

telling somebody the other day they

3:23

were asking you know just a

3:26

person in my life right not

3:28

a tech person they will never

3:30

hear this they're like hey what's

3:32

the deal with AI I was

3:34

like oh oh boy let's sit

3:37

down and I made the comment

3:39

is I know I can tell

3:41

what things are bubbly like what's

3:43

a bubble in tech because that's

3:45

what we get show pitches for

3:48

And so for a long time,

3:50

Mike and I got pitches for

3:52

like crypto stuff and NFTs. And

3:54

now we're all we get. is

3:56

like, hey, have this AI person

3:59

on your podcast or start an

4:01

AI podcast. And what I told

4:03

them was, these things are bubbles

4:05

to a degree, but there's always

4:07

something that sticks around to the

4:10

next cycle, right? Like, there's some

4:12

crypto and in FT and like,

4:14

blockchain stuff that is still with

4:16

us. And there will be some

4:18

AI stuff with us in 10

4:21

years. The trick is knowing what's

4:23

what. And I don't know how

4:25

we're talking about this now. But

4:27

anyways. Really AI coming? Probably never,

4:29

but maybe. Yeah, you never know.

4:32

Christian wrote in. This is incredible.

4:34

I'm a resident of the Channel

4:36

Islands where Sark is one of

4:38

the four main islands. Sark or

4:40

Sark. I'm suddenly unprepared to say

4:43

the name. This was on the

4:45

flag in the Jeremy's we played

4:47

recently. Yeah, yeah. Fun fact, actually,

4:49

it's two half islands, and so

4:51

there's a big island and a

4:53

little island, and is one of

4:56

the car-free islands in the English

4:58

Channel. So there's no cars there.

5:00

Interesting. But it's cool. Yeah, big

5:02

circle and little circle. That's cool.

5:04

That's cool. Yeah. I wonder if

5:07

Christian... We don't know whether Christian

5:09

lives on big circle, little circle,

5:11

what the differences are between... Supposedly,

5:13

I would imagine one is big

5:15

and the other small. Yeah, interesting,

5:18

interesting. Okay. Yeah, Christian was not,

5:20

Christian did not send in their

5:22

address, if that's what you're asking.

5:24

Right, right. We don't want a

5:26

docs, Christian, for sure. Yeah. But

5:29

thank you for the, thank you

5:31

for the feedback. I love hearing

5:33

from listeners from like places we

5:35

talked about or places I would.

5:37

We did a whole thing a

5:40

few years ago, you remember. We

5:42

did. Yeah, we had people like

5:44

just send in where they listened

5:46

from, and it was, it was

5:48

a lot of fun. Wow. Yeah.

5:51

You know the address is there's

5:53

not a address field on the

5:55

feedback page if it's what if

5:57

it's voluntary is that docking? No,

5:59

probably not. It's a sharing. Yeah.

6:02

Last week, you asked to hear

6:04

from people who are using high-end

6:06

Mac hardware and like AI training

6:08

and like who's the 512 gigabytes

6:10

of unified memory for. And Matthew

6:13

wrote in, Matthew says, I have

6:15

an M2 Ultra Mac studio with

6:17

192 gigabytes of unified memory. I

6:19

use it for research purposes at

6:21

the university level and I study

6:24

exergy economics and perform societal exergy

6:26

analysis using matrices. I had to

6:28

look up a lot of those

6:30

words. Okay, exergy. I got a

6:32

lot of exergy myself. Okay, exergy

6:35

is defined. I asked the internet.

6:37

It's the maximum amount of work

6:39

that can be produced by a

6:41

stream or system. as it is

6:43

brought into equilibrium with a reference

6:46

environment. It can be thought of

6:48

as a measure of usefulness or

6:50

the quality of energy. Okay. I

6:52

still don't know what it means,

6:54

but that's what I still, that's

6:57

the internet answered. It sounds fancy.

6:59

Yeah. So, okay. I want to

7:01

be in equilibrium with a reference

7:03

environment. I want to be in

7:05

equilibrium with my environment as well.

7:08

Yeah. When I think about that,

7:10

I think about this like floating

7:12

atop a pool, right. You're just

7:14

like. Right. Just going with the

7:16

flow. Back to Matthew. This workflow

7:19

is massively parallel. So I assign

7:21

each country we're looking at to

7:23

a processor core. Oh, okay. Even

7:25

so, building a database of all

7:27

countries, and there's a link in

7:30

the show notes to this, it

7:32

takes 24 hours for the Mac

7:34

Studio to crunch the data. I

7:36

wish I had funding for an

7:38

M3 Ultra, but we were probably

7:41

wait for an M5. That is

7:43

wild. Isn't that cool? You got

7:45

you got that Italian core that

7:47

United States core just coming along

7:49

for the exergy. I love it.

7:52

I also have my own example

7:54

of real life application of the

7:56

Mac studio. I recently spoke to

7:58

a friend who's been hired as

8:00

a video editor for one of

8:02

the biggest Italian TV channels and

8:05

one of the biggest televised talent

8:07

shows here in Italy. And they

8:09

were telling me that in the

8:11

editing room that they have in

8:13

the office, they have a whole

8:16

lineup of about 10 M2 Max

8:18

Max Studios. And they all, their

8:20

policies that they all have to

8:22

use final cut, obviously. So they

8:24

added this really, really popular TV

8:27

show with like millions of watchers

8:29

on any given week using just

8:31

Mac Studios and Final Cut. And

8:33

I thought that was pretty cool.

8:35

Like they're, and then they're obviously

8:38

like, they have different production pipelines

8:40

for what's going on the online

8:42

video distribution channels versus what's actually

8:44

being televised over the air, you

8:46

know, because this is channel five

8:49

is is an over the air.

8:51

channel on television. So they have

8:53

different encoding and production pipelines for

8:55

what goes on the web versus

8:57

what actually goes on TV. But

9:00

they're all just using Mac Studios,

9:02

M2 Max, and Final Cut. And

9:04

I thought that was pretty cool.

9:06

That is really cool. I just,

9:08

I love hearing stories about people

9:11

using Max in these ways. Over

9:13

the weekend, a friend of mine

9:15

sent me a picture. I'm not

9:17

sure where they were. It was

9:19

some sort of like... Recyclers electronic

9:22

kind of cell, right? Like, it

9:24

was a table full of old

9:26

Macbook errors, like pre-written Macbook errors.

9:28

As we applied, I was like,

9:30

Macbook Air rendering farm. You know,

9:33

like, let's go. Probably a bad

9:35

idea. Hey, Federico. It's the final

9:37

call for merch. It's the final

9:39

countdown. You did exactly what I

9:41

were hoping you were doing. I

9:44

was hoping you would. Thank you.

9:46

You would call. Merch in the

9:48

sale ends on Friday, March 14th.

9:50

Go to Connectedmerch.co.co. UK. The link

9:52

is in the show notes. You

9:55

can't miss it. It's also the

9:57

chapter art right now. Lots of

9:59

ways to get to this. We

10:01

got six shirts available for pre-order,

10:03

organic mega pickles, tiny heads, tiny

10:06

head special edition, take a test

10:08

flight, gum drops and technology should

10:10

be colorful. Go check them out.

10:12

We're trying to feed a baby

10:14

here. Exactly, and also like sure,

10:17

the world may be ending, but

10:19

wouldn't you want to watch that

10:21

as it happens while wearing an

10:23

organic mega pickles t-shirt? Right? At

10:25

least do it in style, you

10:28

know? Good point. I haven't really

10:30

thought about it that way, but...

10:32

Yeah, don't do it with a

10:34

t-shirt with a Mac Pro on

10:36

it. Like, do it with a

10:39

mega pickle on it. You know?

10:41

The mega pickle. I can tell

10:43

you exclusively here, that mega pickles

10:45

is the highest selling shirt so

10:47

far. Oh, okay, these are big

10:50

reveal on the show. Okay. Interesting,

10:52

interesting, don't give it away because

10:54

we need to have a final

10:56

proper reveal. I mean, obviously tiny

10:58

heads is the best selling. I

11:01

forgot. Tiny heads selling. Right, right.

11:03

Despite, Michael. Yeah. Okay. Now, if

11:05

you combine the, I didn't do

11:07

this, if you combine the two

11:09

tiny head shirts, because there's tiny

11:11

heads and tiny head special edition,

11:14

it's the top seller. Okay. Go

11:16

to it. Go check it out.

11:18

Seriously, everyone who's ordered one. Thank

11:20

you. If you're in the Relay

11:22

Members Discord, which you can join

11:25

by becoming a member of Connective

11:27

Pro, I've been dropping free code.

11:29

for t-shirts because with Cotton Bureau

11:31

as you sell more you earn

11:33

these free codes and you know

11:36

I probably should send them to

11:38

family and friends or like to

11:40

you but instead I'm just giving

11:42

them away to members so that's

11:44

a good call yeah it's fun

11:47

it's like dropping have you ever

11:49

like gone to a pond and

11:51

like you drop bread or something

11:53

and then all the fish like

11:55

come up and eat it no

11:58

but one time when I was

12:00

little my grandpa took me to

12:02

this really big square square in

12:04

Rome and it was like hey

12:06

do you want to feed the

12:09

pigeons And he gave me a

12:11

bag of rice and I was

12:13

like just throwing on the ground

12:15

and the pigeons will come to

12:17

you and That was has to

12:20

be one of the most traumatizing

12:22

events in my life where I

12:24

dropped this this like rice beans

12:26

on the ground and I was

12:28

basically assaulted by pigeons and I

12:31

was and I was like six

12:33

or seven and I remember just

12:35

being traumatized but it looked like

12:37

a Halford Hitchcock movie honestly like

12:39

I was basically assaulted by all

12:42

these birds who would just want

12:44

to eat the rice so I

12:46

do think that dropping breadcrumbs in

12:48

a pond is probably the safer

12:50

bet. Yeah or a code for

12:53

a free t-shirt and discord. Yeah

12:55

for sure. I could see a

12:57

little young Federico there. And I

12:59

was real tiny, I was short,

13:01

I was real little, and all

13:04

these pigeons flying toward me trying

13:06

to eat the rice of my

13:08

hands. It was scary. Yeah. Yeah.

13:10

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15:13

Relay. Stephen, I have some important

15:15

news to share with you and

15:18

our listeners. I have finally found

15:20

a really good use case for

15:22

my $3,500 face computer, which will

15:24

be the Vision Pro. It took

15:26

me a year. to get to

15:29

this point, but I finally found

15:31

a way for the Vision Pro

15:33

to be sticking. in my quote-unquote

15:35

workflow in a way that I've

15:37

been using it almost no almost

15:40

every night is that gives it

15:42

away every night for the past

15:44

week so the Vision Pro has

15:46

become my night computer not in

15:48

the sense that like you know

15:51

the old joke of like day

15:53

phone and night phone it's not

15:55

about that it's about something else

15:57

so over the past few months

15:59

my girlfriend Sylvia she's become very

16:02

sensitive to light sources at night.

16:04

I don't know what happened. I

16:06

think, you know, maybe these things

16:08

come and go during the year,

16:10

you know, maybe, you know, there's

16:13

the time of year when you're

16:15

working a lot and you're particularly

16:17

stressed. And so you're more of

16:19

a light sleeper than normal. But

16:21

over the past few months, yes,

16:24

she's been very busy and she's

16:26

been very stressed, you know, for

16:28

a lot of responsibilities at work.

16:30

But the thing is, she's become

16:32

very sensitive to light. So I

16:35

had you know we had to

16:37

rethink all of all of our

16:39

like home automations for like the

16:41

the the colorful light bulbs that

16:43

we have like instead of turning

16:46

off you know at some point

16:48

in the night they turn off

16:50

before we go to sleep or

16:52

like even things like turning off

16:54

the LED for my television or

16:57

the LED for like my my

16:59

monitor in the in the office

17:01

that was blinking by itself at

17:03

night like turning off all of

17:05

these lights and obviously I was

17:08

the one remaining problem in this

17:10

scenario in that Sylvia goes to

17:12

bed before I do because I

17:14

like to carve out like an

17:16

hour an hour and a half

17:18

for myself to do my reading

17:21

or to do my gaming to

17:23

do those sorts of things you

17:25

know watch some YouTube videos watch

17:27

severance which Sylvia doesn't do like

17:29

I just want to have like

17:32

those 90 minutes for myself before

17:34

I also go to sleep. And

17:36

obviously I was waking her up

17:38

constantly by using either my iPhone

17:40

or my iPad throwing bed. And

17:43

so that's when I realized... wait,

17:45

I could still use all the

17:47

apps that I want to use

17:49

without emitting any light whatsoever by

17:51

using the Vision Pro. And so

17:54

that's exactly what I've been doing

17:56

for the past week. I've been

17:58

using the Vision Pro as my

18:00

night computer, mostly to do reading

18:02

and watching TV and obviously not

18:05

playing games. Although I do hope

18:07

that changes at some point later

18:09

this year, if Apple allows HDMI

18:11

connections via the developer strap, we'll

18:13

talk about that if it happens

18:16

in Visional S3, but I mostly

18:18

use it to watch TV, watch

18:20

YouTube, listen to some music occasionally

18:22

and catch up on my reading

18:24

queue, just using the Vision Pro.

18:27

And that gave me not just,

18:29

I mean, obviously a newfound appreciation

18:31

for, you know, finally I can

18:33

put this really expensive computer to

18:35

good use. But also I have

18:38

some up-to-date notes about using the

18:40

VisionPro regularly. Okay. Okay. I do

18:42

have one hardware question. Sure. At

18:44

some point, weren't you a person

18:46

who like took off the light

18:49

shield? I did, I did, but

18:51

because of this new scenario in

18:53

my life, I put on the

18:55

light seal again. That's what I

18:57

thought. Okay. Yeah, yeah, just to

19:00

make sure that no light is

19:02

bleeding whatsoever. In fact, I got

19:04

to look into whether I can

19:06

actually turn off completely eyesight, you

19:08

know, the outer facing display. I

19:11

don't know if there's a way

19:13

to just say just never light

19:15

up the outer facing display. I

19:17

got to look into it. I'm

19:19

not sure if there's a maybe,

19:22

maybe these things, like usually these

19:24

things are like accessibility settings. Maybe

19:26

there's an accessibility setting in somewhere

19:28

to do that. But yes, I

19:30

have the light seal again. So

19:33

just get some tape just tape

19:35

over the outside of it. Did

19:37

you see that that tripophobia inducing

19:39

cover for the Vision Pro? Yeah.

19:41

The brand I think made it's

19:44

honestly looks horrific. But yeah, it

19:46

doesn't completely block the display anyway,

19:48

because you need the sensors. Anyway,

19:50

so I'm running the Vision OS

19:52

2.4 beta. I have three comments.

19:55

The first one is that the

19:57

performance of the Vision Pro. in

19:59

really low light and by low

20:01

light I mean absence of light

20:03

because I'm using it in the

20:06

complete darkness of my bedroom while

20:08

my partner is sleeping next to

20:10

me. The performance in low light

20:12

continues to be really really abysmal,

20:14

like the obviously the pass-through is

20:17

non-existent at that point but I

20:19

always get the alert that I'm

20:21

using the vision pro in low

20:23

light and I wish there was

20:25

a way for me to say

20:27

yes I know that I'm using

20:30

this in the dark like I

20:32

don't need you to tell me

20:34

every single time. But the, you

20:36

know, the effect of you looking

20:38

around a dark room is really

20:41

jarring because you get this like,

20:43

you don't get this pure pitch

20:45

black, you get the pass through

20:47

version of pitch black, which is

20:49

like black but fuzzy. It's like

20:52

in the old days when the

20:54

TV channel went off the air

20:56

and it was like dark static.

20:58

Yes, it's basically the equivalent of

21:00

dark static. Obviously, using an environment

21:03

mitigates that. But still I wish

21:05

there was a way for like

21:07

I wish there was like a

21:09

dark room mode or something to

21:11

just say yes I know that

21:14

I'm using the vision for in

21:16

a dark room and the good

21:18

news though is that gestures still

21:20

work perfectly so the vision probably

21:22

is obviously I think it's just

21:25

in a combination of like lighter

21:27

and something else to still see

21:29

your hands and your fingers as

21:31

you perform the pinching and the

21:33

clicking gestures so those work perfectly

21:36

but I wish there was a

21:38

way to have a better dark

21:40

room environment. But speaking of environments,

21:42

like the proper visualized environments, my

21:44

absolute favorite is the new bora-bora

21:47

environment. Like it's so peaceful and

21:49

quiet, it looks fantastic, but I

21:51

continue to be... very much confused

21:53

by the volume and audio settings

21:55

for environments in Vision OS. It

21:58

seems that by default the environment

22:00

always plays sounds unless you go

22:02

into settings and turn down the

22:04

volume for all environments. But just

22:06

like any other Apple platform, this

22:09

applies to the iPad, this applies

22:11

to the iPhone. I wish there

22:13

were more fine-grained audio controls. I

22:15

wish there was a more, and

22:17

I don't know exactly how, because

22:20

I'm not an Apple designer, but

22:22

I wish there was an easier

22:24

way for me to say, just

22:26

turn down the volume in this

22:28

environment, if I'm using it at

22:31

night, or maybe turn it back

22:33

up, if I'm using it during

22:35

the day, or maybe have separate...

22:37

I think one of the things

22:39

that Android, for example, for example,

22:42

does so well, is having multiple

22:44

volume sliders for different things. sort

22:46

of interaction does not exist on

22:48

Vision OS and I figure because

22:50

it doesn't exist on iPad OS

22:53

or iOS either. So that's, you

22:55

know, better and more fine-tuned audio

22:57

controls would be nice to have.

22:59

Yeah, Android, just for people aren't

23:01

familiar, I just looked it up,

23:04

they have volume levels for media,

23:06

yeah. Call, like the volume of

23:08

the other person on a phone

23:10

call, ring tone, notification, and alarms,

23:12

all separate sliders. Yeah, and when

23:15

you use the slider on Android,

23:17

like there's like an ellipsis button

23:19

that you can press, and when

23:21

you press that button right underneath

23:23

the volume slider, it brings up

23:26

this menu with all the separate

23:28

sliders that you can use. I

23:30

think it's really well done. It's

23:32

one of the best aspects of

23:34

Android, and I think it's totally

23:36

something that I put you copy

23:39

on all platforms. The final comment

23:41

that I will share is that...

23:43

To and this is again something

23:45

that we spoke about in the

23:47

pro show But to overcome the

23:50

lack of native apps on Vision

23:52

OS which is the same problem

23:54

as iPad OS. I'm also using

23:56

a bunch of web apps on

23:58

the Vision Pro and it's fine,

24:01

really. It's actually better. This is

24:03

one of the points that I

24:05

will share in my article. It's

24:07

actually better than on the iPad

24:09

because at the very least you

24:12

can open an unlimited number of

24:14

windows around you for those web

24:16

apps. This is part of the

24:18

superior multitasking that you have on

24:20

Vision OS compared to Stage Manager

24:23

on iPadOS. I've been using this

24:25

app literally called Web apps from

24:27

the Vision OS App Store and

24:29

Web apps basically gives you a

24:31

launcher, a customizable launcher for different

24:34

websites and each of those websites

24:36

you can choose to open in

24:38

a separate window. So I can

24:40

have my to-doist, I can have

24:42

my chat-GPT or cloud window, I

24:45

can have my Google calendar, all

24:47

open as standalone web views on

24:49

the Vision Pro, and I can,

24:51

you know, if maybe, like, one

24:53

of the things that I also

24:56

do, like, is preparing for the

24:58

next day before I go to

25:00

sleep, so I like to have

25:02

my calendar, my test manager, you

25:04

know, some, some AI tool on

25:07

the side, and I can open

25:09

a limited number of these windows,

25:11

and even though they are web

25:13

apps, they work just fine. And

25:15

you know, even without a keyboard,

25:18

I've mostly been using eye tracking

25:20

and hand gestures and they work

25:22

okay. And the final thing that,

25:24

you know, as an additional comment

25:26

that I will share with you,

25:29

Stephen, this will probably be a

25:31

post on MacSories at some point.

25:33

I was wondering last night, in

25:35

fact, hey, is it possible on

25:37

the Vision Pro with the M2

25:40

chip to run AI models locally?

25:42

And boy was that fun. So

25:44

I found these two apps from

25:46

the Vision of S App Store.

25:48

One is called Full Moon. It's

25:51

made by a company called Mainframe.

25:53

They do a bunch of AI

25:55

services, I think. And they have

25:57

this very simple client to run

25:59

on device private. AI models. And

26:02

they have those lightweight AI models,

26:04

like the small version of llama

26:06

by meta, a small version of

26:08

deep-sea, you know, these small AI

26:10

models that you can download,

26:13

and they take up like one,

26:15

two, two, or three gigabytes. And

26:17

those models, they work. You know,

26:19

they're kind of slow. I could

26:21

hear the fan of the Vision

26:24

Pro going off as I was

26:26

chatting with those with those models

26:28

locally and you know, but the

26:31

full moon app was working and

26:33

you know, got the job done.

26:35

Then I found something else,

26:37

I think it's called on

26:40

device AI, not the best

26:42

name, but they have a

26:44

VisionOS version that finally enough.

26:46

And this is something that at

26:48

some point I would like to

26:51

check out. I think this app

26:53

can connect locally on your Wi-Fi

26:55

network to the Mac version to

26:57

sort of offload some computing to

27:00

the Mac version, which is an

27:02

interesting idea that I want to

27:04

check out. But this app also

27:06

lets you download on device models

27:08

on the Vision Pro, but even

27:11

bigger models. And when I saw

27:13

that I could download the 10

27:15

gigabyte version of Deep Seek with

27:17

14 billion parameters, I was like,

27:20

oh boy, I wonder what happens

27:22

here if I download this huge

27:24

model on the Vision Pro with

27:26

the M2, what's going to happen?

27:28

And here's my advice for whoever

27:31

wants to try this. Don't do

27:33

it. So my Vision Pro got

27:36

really hot. So I downloaded the

27:38

10 gigabyte Deep Seek model. The

27:40

Vision Pro got really hot. The

27:42

fans, they started really going.

27:45

And as soon as I loaded

27:47

the model, everything crashed. Oh no.

27:49

Bora, Bora turned into a pitch

27:51

black environment. Well, that solves your

27:54

pastor issue. Sure. That was actually

27:56

a better, like, there was a

27:58

proper pitch black. P&G probably

28:00

just being used as a

28:02

placeholder because the vision program,

28:04

you know, ran out of

28:07

RAM, supposedly. The environment crashed.

28:09

All of my other windows,

28:11

except the on- device AI

28:13

window, all of the other

28:15

windows, they sort of froze,

28:17

crashed, and then got stuck

28:19

in this like zoomed state,

28:21

like literally their UIs. got

28:23

stuck on screen I couldn't

28:25

move them I couldn't close

28:27

them but all the UI

28:29

elements were zoomed in so

28:31

they were like comically huge

28:33

for whatever reason it's like

28:35

you it's like when you

28:37

hit command plus in a

28:39

web browser and you make

28:41

the text really huge that's

28:43

what happened I had to

28:45

force quit all my apps

28:47

that didn't do it I

28:49

had to power cycle my

28:51

vision pro So if you

28:53

try and run an AI

28:55

model locally on the Vision

28:57

Pro, maybe try with the

28:59

small ones. Don't do the

29:01

10 gigabyte, you know, anything

29:03

over 7 billion parameters, don't

29:05

do it unless you want

29:07

to have a really bad

29:09

Vision OS crash. That's incredible.

29:11

I have never heard of

29:13

Vision Pro crashing out like

29:15

that. Yeah, it was kind

29:17

of spectacular in its own

29:19

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30:59

I want you to cast

31:01

your mind back. Okay. What

31:03

was the phrase earlier? You

31:05

want to, you know, be

31:07

brought into equilibrium with a

31:09

reference environment. Okay, okay. So

31:11

you want to channel all

31:13

my exurgy here. I do.

31:15

Yes. Do you remember? Iowa

31:17

6 to Iowa 7. Do

31:19

you remember that year? Oh,

31:21

yes I do. What a

31:23

time. What a time. We

31:25

could be getting ready to

31:27

relive that. So Mark German

31:29

and Bloomberg and others have

31:31

talked about a potentially, I'm

31:33

quoting, one of the most

31:35

dramatic software overhauls, unquote, in

31:37

Apple's history. German goes on

31:39

to say, quote, this will

31:41

go well beyond a new

31:43

design language and aesthetic tweaks,

31:45

unquote. This would include the

31:47

Mac and iOS and iPadOS,

31:49

and it seems like the.

31:51

design will be loosely based

31:53

on Vision OS with Apple's

31:55

goal to make the design

31:57

of its operating systems quote

31:59

more consistent. Apple wants to

32:01

simplify the way users navigate

32:03

and control their devices. What

32:05

is your gut reaction to

32:07

this? Is this something that

32:09

is needed? Huh. So my

32:11

first reaction was that, and

32:13

I've been sort of banging

32:15

this drum for the past

32:17

few years, I really didn't

32:19

think. that we would see

32:21

another major redesign after the

32:23

whole mess that IOS 7

32:25

was. And it took Apple

32:27

many years of refinement and

32:29

sort of building back up

32:31

the IOS design architecture to

32:33

land in a more nuanced

32:35

and stable place. And for

32:37

that reason for the past

32:39

few years, I've had that

32:41

line in my annual IOS

32:43

reviews where I thought... you

32:45

know, under Tim Cook's app,

32:47

Apple, we'll probably never see

32:49

another major dramatic redesign again.

32:51

And so I was very

32:53

surprised to see this report

32:55

by German. But then, you

32:57

know, the more I thought

32:59

about it, and the more,

33:01

the more I saw myself

33:03

potentially going down two different

33:05

paths with that, with that

33:07

thought, a cynical one, and

33:09

maybe a realistic one, and

33:11

maybe a realistic one, And

33:14

the cynical point of view

33:16

is kind of where I

33:18

want to start this conversation

33:20

with you. Because the cynical

33:22

point of view would say,

33:24

well, if you are behind

33:26

on AI and the narrative

33:28

surrounding Apple these days in

33:30

any major tech press outlet

33:32

is Apple is behind on

33:34

AI, Google is hitting their

33:36

lunch with Gemini, and all

33:38

these other AI providers are

33:40

showing a different path for

33:42

the future of technology. What's

33:44

a good way? to sort

33:46

of change the conversation almost

33:48

Don Draper style. Yeah, I

33:50

was going to say Don

33:52

Draper. Yeah, that would be

33:54

totally, totally blindside the press

33:56

and be like, well. I

33:58

know that you're all thinking

34:00

about AI, but what about

34:02

a complete makeover of all

34:04

of our platforms. So that's

34:06

one way to look at

34:08

it, you know. Well, I

34:10

think people are, I think

34:12

M.G. Siegler had a really

34:14

good post about this on

34:16

his new blog, Spy Glass,

34:18

this morning, like people are

34:20

inherently and intrinsically almost. always

34:22

attracted to new. There is

34:24

also another madman reference, you

34:26

know, what a show that

34:28

was when Don Draper explains

34:30

the concept of new. This,

34:32

you know, new creates an

34:34

itch in people and it's

34:36

hard to let go of

34:38

being curious about what's new.

34:40

And so a new design,

34:42

it sort of catches people

34:44

attention and maybe distracts them

34:46

from all the problems that

34:48

Apple is having with AI

34:50

and Apple intelligence. So... That's

34:52

one way to look at

34:54

it, and I kind of

34:56

wanted to ask you if

34:58

you also think there's something

35:00

to this idea. I think

35:02

that it's... Let me phrase

35:04

that. I don't think Apple

35:06

says, hey y'all, they get

35:08

a big meeting, Tim Cook

35:10

sits down, hey y'all. We're

35:12

behind Apple Intelligence, let's distract

35:14

everybody with a new design.

35:16

Yeah. If that's an unintentional

35:18

consequence, is Apple sad about

35:20

that? Probably not. Probably not.

35:22

You know, I don't think

35:24

Apple is a company that

35:26

would redesign its OSAs to

35:28

calm. Out of spite almost.

35:30

Yeah, well, out of spite,

35:32

but it's also kind of

35:34

out of fear, right, or

35:36

out of a desire to

35:38

distract from their... ongoing woes

35:40

with Apple intelligence and you

35:42

know the the whole series

35:44

new cycle we kind of

35:46

missed but like personalized series

35:48

not coming any time soon

35:50

it seems like and so

35:52

I don't know I don't

35:54

think it's a distraction move

35:56

but I generally have been

35:59

in a great with you,

36:01

there's like, Apple is not

36:03

going to really do a

36:05

ground up rebuild, especially of

36:07

iOS, because Iowa 7 was

36:09

so jarring. And for years,

36:11

right, people, like, you and

36:13

I both heard this in

36:15

our everyday lives, like, oh,

36:17

is my phone going to

36:19

change if I upgraded again,

36:21

right? People had to relearn

36:23

things with Iowa 7. It

36:25

was very jarring. But if

36:27

you look at Iowa 7

36:29

and you look at iOS

36:31

18, or an 18, right?

36:33

I was 18. Yeah. They

36:35

are clearly different, right? Apple

36:37

has evolved it over time.

36:39

And yes, like the basic

36:41

structure of Iowa 7 is

36:43

still more or less there,

36:45

but it looks in some

36:47

places radically different and I

36:49

think better than Iowa 7

36:51

did. And so I've been.

36:53

on the same train you've

36:55

been on it like apples

36:57

is going to continue to

36:59

evolve things over time you

37:01

know some years we'll get

37:03

bigger things and others like

37:05

big sir was a pretty

37:07

big change to Mac OS

37:09

you know the new control

37:11

center being editable and i

37:13

was 18 like that's a

37:15

big deal widgets are a

37:17

big deal but i didn't

37:19

really think that we would

37:21

have a a big shift

37:23

again like this potentially could

37:25

be that said I'm extremely

37:27

interested in this. And I

37:29

think the overall vibe of

37:31

Vision OS, like the bronze

37:33

and the frosted glass, and

37:35

the depth, I really like

37:37

the look of Vision OS,

37:39

and if there are things

37:41

that can be gleaned from

37:43

that, but done in an

37:45

appropriate way for each platform,

37:47

then I think that's okay.

37:49

Like the thing that I

37:51

really raised my eyebrow at

37:53

and like with german it's

37:55

hard to tell like what's

37:57

him and what sources but.

38:00

Ghermans, Apple, quotes, Apple also plans,

38:02

quote, to simplify the way users

38:04

navigate and control their devices. That

38:06

worries me a little bit, because

38:08

where Apple has done that on

38:11

the Mac, like they've hidden a

38:13

lot of things on the Mac

38:15

behind clicks or behind drop downs,

38:17

and not all that's good. And

38:19

I think Apple, in its current

38:21

design iterations of software, wants to

38:23

stash things away and you have

38:26

to go find them. And I

38:28

don't think that's a good trend.

38:30

I don't think that's a, I

38:32

hope that's not something that is

38:34

going to be like a hallmark

38:36

of this upcoming design refresh. But

38:38

as long as they don't go

38:41

too far and they can take

38:43

things from VisionOS and try to

38:45

make things feel more related, I

38:47

don't think that's necessarily a bad

38:49

thing. I don't know. Am I

38:51

over reading that line? No, I

38:54

don't think you are. And that

38:56

sort of brings me to the

38:58

sort of what I've been what

39:00

I've been thinking as the second

39:02

way to consider this possibility, which

39:04

is, so let's say that your

39:06

Apple and your and you're thinking

39:09

about what does your ecosystem look

39:11

like, say, five years from now

39:13

or seven years from now, where

39:15

In addition to the phone and

39:17

tablet and the laptops, maybe you

39:19

have glasses, maybe you have foldables,

39:21

both on the phone and maybe

39:24

foldable laptops or foldable tablets, and

39:26

you have an app ecosystem that

39:28

is going to continue, because this

39:30

is already happening, but it's only

39:32

going to continue becoming more and

39:34

more modular. in the sense of

39:36

like an app that you use

39:39

can be a widget can be

39:41

and I mean you literally know

39:43

with you just made it like

39:45

what what what even is an

39:47

app anymore at this point it's

39:49

not necessarily the icon that you

39:52

press on your home screen right

39:54

so if you're thinking about that

39:56

and you're thinking well So let's

39:58

say that we're doing a foldable

40:00

phone next year. What is a

40:02

window? What is an application window

40:04

when you open up a foldable

40:07

phone and it becomes a small

40:09

tablet? Yeah. What does that mean

40:11

in a world where I don't

40:13

remember what podcast this was on?

40:15

So my apologies. But some shows

40:17

I was listening to recently was

40:19

talking about iPhone apps on the

40:22

iPad. Like they're still just centered

40:24

with background. I was like, why

40:26

aren't those in slideover? We're like,

40:28

there are all these weird edge

40:30

cases. And boy, foldables, really complicated

40:32

all that. And I'm not sure

40:34

that, I'm not sure that, that

40:37

iOS is, okay, here you go,

40:39

as an iPad user, I'm gonna

40:41

ask you this. iOS is, iOS

40:43

app started life as like, they

40:45

take up the whole screen, right?

40:47

There's no window, chrome, there's no

40:50

window management. You open an app,

40:52

you hit the home button on

40:54

your iPhone in 2008 or whatever.

40:57

I'm not sure iOS or iPad

40:59

OS has ever really broken free

41:02

of that. Like stage manager tries,

41:04

but it's still on rails, right?

41:06

You can't, you don't have complete

41:08

free form control like you do

41:11

on the Mac. And maybe, and

41:13

we're, I mean, we're pure speculation

41:15

territory now, but like, maybe this

41:17

redesign, like maybe that's part of

41:20

this. Like, you know what? On

41:22

the iPad, turns out we maybe

41:24

do need some window chrome. And

41:26

it needs to be more than

41:29

like that weird little half circle

41:31

thing in the bottom corner and

41:33

you know Vision OS had to

41:36

deal with that because your apps

41:38

are in your Like in your

41:40

space like in your physical space

41:42

unless so there needed to be

41:45

depth and some window management like

41:47

Maybe this like maybe the iPad

41:49

benefits the most from this which

41:51

would certainly be interesting given our

41:54

pro topic today where the iPad

41:56

feels really stagnant Exactly, and this

41:58

is what this is sort of

42:01

where I was going like I

42:03

think another way to think about

42:05

this rumor is If you're Apple

42:07

and you invest a lot of

42:10

money, a lot of time, a

42:12

lot of resources, a lot of

42:14

people over the past few years

42:16

into building the Vision Pro and

42:19

the Vision Pro with Vision OS,

42:21

right? And the reception of the

42:23

Vision Pro as largely being great

42:26

software, but this hardware is not

42:28

going anywhere, not with this foreign

42:30

factor, not with this price, but

42:32

the software is really good. That's

42:35

been like a common theme over

42:37

the past year. And so if

42:39

you're Apple and you're looking at

42:41

it, and maybe there's a part

42:44

of you that thinks, well, should

42:46

we throw away all of these

42:48

interesting ideas that we've had for

42:51

window chrome and multitasking and interactions?

42:53

Or is there a scenario? Is

42:55

there a timeline in which we

42:57

can take some of those lessons?

43:00

some of those design sensibilities, some

43:02

of those interaction patterns that we

43:04

have pioneered with VisionOS, do they

43:06

make sense on other platforms? And

43:09

I'm going to give you like

43:11

a very practical example. One way,

43:13

one simple way, that I could

43:16

see when German says like this

43:18

loosely word. from Gorman's reporting is

43:20

doing a lot of work in

43:22

this context. But let's take it

43:25

a face value. Let's say that

43:27

you're loosely based on VisionOS. In

43:29

a very practical term, that could

43:31

mean that maybe you know the

43:34

home indicator at the bottom of

43:36

your iPhone apps, like the home

43:38

indicator that you swipe to open

43:41

multitasking and to go back to

43:43

the home screen. On VisionOS, you

43:45

also have that sort of... indicator

43:47

anchored at the bottom of a

43:50

window right right right but next

43:52

to that indicator there's always a

43:54

close button so that when you

43:56

look at it there's a tiny

43:59

dot next to the to the

44:01

thin line there's a dot that

44:03

appears and that's your close button

44:06

maybe we could see something like

44:08

that on iOS or IPOS there's

44:10

maybe space to have more ui

44:12

elements next to the home indicator

44:15

that could be something to close

44:17

an app or maybe could be

44:19

a window switcher. Like, again, in

44:21

the context of a foldable, I

44:24

wouldn't be surprised, for example, if

44:26

this year at WWDC, we got

44:28

an API, developers get an API

44:30

to support multi-windo on iPhone. And

44:33

everybody's like, why would you want

44:35

to do multiple app windows on

44:37

iPhone? That's the sort of thing

44:40

that sort of telegraphs the ability

44:42

to have multiple windows on a

44:44

foldable phone next year, right? And

44:46

this is exactly what Apple does.

44:49

Do you remember when they did

44:51

that years ago? Size classes. Size

44:53

classes. Like, why do you eat?

44:55

Wait, wait, why isn't an app

44:58

always the same size? Like, they're

45:00

bigger phones coming. They're coming real

45:02

soon. you know exactly exactly or

45:05

like maybe when german says they

45:07

want to simplify the way users

45:09

navigate and control their devices all

45:11

right what does that mean maybe

45:14

a way that you know maybe

45:16

something like that could be a

45:18

redesign of top bars like top

45:20

bars have been with us forever

45:23

especially on the iPhone on the

45:25

vision probably look completely different yeah

45:27

they're floating sometimes are floating at

45:30

the bottom sometimes they are floating

45:32

at the top sometimes they are

45:34

ornaments on the side And when

45:36

you look at them, they expand

45:39

into different sections of an app

45:41

that you can navigate. Maybe we

45:43

could be looking at something that

45:45

is not necessarily like a straight

45:48

up one-to-one copy of VisionOS, but

45:50

something similar to that. Like a

45:52

new way to navigate sections of

45:55

Instagram, for example, or sections of,

45:57

I don't know, Mastodon or whatever.

45:59

And of course... There's the whole

46:01

aesthetic, like the simplistic fact that

46:04

you, for example, as Apple, have

46:06

a chance to make your icons

46:08

look completely new. With new guidelines,

46:10

maybe you can give them a

46:13

round shape, maybe you can give

46:15

them a sense of depth, like

46:17

on VisionOS, I do think that

46:20

the VisionOS app icons are some

46:22

of the best work that Apple

46:24

has done in years. And I

46:26

would love to have some consistency

46:29

with those style of icons. They're

46:31

not skeomorphic. not flat either. They're

46:33

new, they're fresh, they look nice.

46:35

And I think that's potentially another

46:38

avenue. But for me, the main

46:40

point here is this idea of

46:42

consistency. And I see a lot

46:45

of people sort of arguing about

46:47

this like, does Apple need to

46:49

make everything consistent? Right. And that

46:51

I think is where is the

46:54

trickiest part of the conversation. Because

46:56

obviously the Mac, the iPhone, the

46:58

Vision Pro, the Apple Watch, like

47:00

they're all fundamentally different platforms, right,

47:03

with wildly different interaction systems. Some

47:05

things have a trackpad, the phone

47:07

you touch, the Apple Watch is

47:09

tiny and on your wrist, like

47:12

they are completely different devices. Why?

47:14

And do they need to look

47:16

the same, right? And I would

47:19

be... This is my theory. I

47:21

would be... personally shocked if Apple

47:23

throws away decades, literally decades of

47:25

design expertise and design studies that

47:28

show that it's better to optimize

47:30

the same interface element for different

47:32

computing platforms and instead they just

47:34

go, you know what? A menu

47:37

should look like a menu everywhere.

47:39

We don't care if it's on

47:41

your wrist, if it's on your

47:44

physical space with the Vision Pro,

47:46

or if it's on a Mac,

47:48

they should always look the same.

47:50

They could do that. I would

47:53

be very surprised. And for example,

47:55

there's going to be a link

47:57

in the show notes to show

47:59

you a practical example of what

48:02

I mean. On every Apple platform,

48:04

there's a UI element called a

48:06

sheet. You've seen sheets before. They

48:09

are these, sometimes they slide up

48:11

from the bottom, sometimes they come

48:13

up in the middle of the

48:15

screen, sometimes they are full screen.

48:18

It's technically speaking the same UI

48:20

element, but as per Apple's human

48:22

nervous guidelines, they look comfortable. really

48:24

different based on the Apple computer

48:27

that you're using. And I think

48:29

when German says loosely, I think

48:31

loosely potentially means that Apple is

48:34

going to reuse, recycle, but always

48:36

adapt some of the UI conventions

48:38

and styles and sense of aesthetic

48:40

that they pioneered with VisionOS, but

48:43

they're always going to adapt and

48:45

optimize that for whatever computer you're

48:47

going to use. Yeah, I think

48:49

Apple knows that making the Mac

48:52

and the Apple watch and the

48:54

Vision Pro all look and work

48:56

the same are like two different

48:59

things, right? You can recycle some

49:01

of the visuals, but as you

49:03

said perfectly, the interactions are totally

49:05

different. And I think the best

49:08

example of this currently, and stay

49:10

with me here, is VisionOS and

49:12

TVOS. The TVOS launcher and like

49:14

that interface, like there's some vision

49:17

OS stuff in there, right? The

49:19

icons kind of shimmer and there's

49:21

some depth to them. Yeah. But

49:24

one, you're using your eyeballs and

49:26

your fingers and the other you're

49:28

using a remote and like very

49:30

clearly those OS is related, but

49:33

you use them in very different

49:35

ways. And I think Apple is

49:37

definitely smart enough to know that

49:39

copying and... one OS over another

49:42

is not the way to do

49:44

this. But, you know, there are

49:46

some things that I think could

49:49

be a bit more tidy across

49:51

the line. And I think most

49:53

interestingly, the iPad has the most

49:55

to gain. And I think the

49:58

Mac has the most to lose,

50:00

like simplifying window management on the

50:02

Mac, like, we've had red, yellow,

50:04

and green controls on the upper

50:07

left and corner since the Maco

50:09

is 10 betas 25 years ago.

50:11

But you have over that green

50:13

button and that thing is overloaded.

50:16

You have move and resize. fill

50:18

in a range full screen and

50:20

move to your other displays all

50:23

under a hover state like okay

50:25

red yellow green still makes a

50:27

lot of sense but all that

50:29

other stuff like is there a

50:32

better way to do that and

50:34

and so I'm a little a

50:36

little apprehensive because again the last

50:38

couple years since really big sir

50:41

moving forward Apple has kind of

50:43

not done a great job with

50:45

some of that on the Mac

50:48

but Apple's perfect user is one

50:50

who moved fluidly between their devices

50:52

throughout a day and making that

50:54

easier is in the company's best

50:57

interest. And probably ultimately, once you

50:59

get over the hump, is better

51:01

for users. And so I am

51:03

excited about this, a little nervous,

51:06

but mostly excited. And I think

51:08

that it could be fun to

51:10

see what Apple would do with

51:13

this if VisionOS is the seed.

51:15

But I will tell you more

51:17

than one of our friends who

51:19

develop apps, I've texted maybe like,

51:22

oh boy, you know, because it

51:24

means a lot of work for

51:26

app developers. Busy summer. Busy summer.

51:28

Some final questions that I want

51:31

to share, just sort of leave

51:33

out there before we move on.

51:35

It'll be interesting to see whether

51:38

or not this redesign will... totally

51:40

and completely embrace Swift UI or

51:42

still remain anchored to UI kit

51:44

for several aspects. It'll be interesting

51:47

to see if Apple also embraces

51:49

the style of design that we

51:51

saw with photos last year. And

51:53

not just like the actual structure

51:56

of photos, but like this idea

51:58

of customizable app interfaces. Right? Is

52:00

photos like quite telling from that

52:03

perspective? And lastly, more of a

52:05

wild card theory than a question.

52:07

Yes. But can you imagine if

52:09

this report actually means that Apple

52:12

is going to unify everything under

52:14

like an Apple OS brand instead

52:16

of like, you know, IOS, Hyper

52:18

OS, Watch OS, OS, TVOS, VisionOS,

52:21

like just say Apple OS, OS,

52:23

and it's, you know, it's consistent.

52:25

I'll give you that. It's consistent,

52:28

but... still optimize for everything. I

52:30

know that there's a whole bunch

52:32

of reasons why Apple doesn't want

52:34

to do it. Yeah. But I

52:37

think it's going to be fascinating

52:39

to think about as an option.

52:41

I think Mike floated out an

52:43

upgrade like eight years ago. Yeah.

52:46

Yeah. I mean, Apple has a

52:48

lot of operating systems, but really

52:50

they have basically two different u.

52:53

I don't think they would toss

52:55

all of the brand equity they

52:57

have in things like MacOS and

52:59

iOS in particular, but what I

53:02

could see and what I would

53:04

prefer is that they use this

53:06

as an opportunity to keep the

53:08

OS is named what they are,

53:11

but tidy up the branding that

53:13

links them. It's like, why are

53:15

we on MacOS Sequoia and iOS18

53:17

and VisionOS2? Yeah, so people like

53:20

just put a name after it

53:22

or put a put a number

53:24

after it put a year after

53:27

it I actually Would kind of

53:29

like for them to use names

53:31

like if it's Mac OS Sequoia,

53:33

then like let it be Iowa

53:36

Sequoia or you know, just something

53:38

So it's easier to understand and

53:40

to keep up with I get

53:42

Apple like starting at one and

53:45

moving forward We saw it two

53:47

weeks ago with the C1 right

53:49

the first sale of a chip

53:52

is C1 That's fine I think

53:54

I think with hardware it's a

53:56

little bit different and maybe more

53:58

important in hardware. But while

54:00

you're in there Apple, do

54:02

something about the names, because

54:05

it's getting out of hand.

54:07

I love that idea, and

54:09

I'm going to give you

54:11

one final what-if scenario that

54:13

I think you're going to

54:15

particularly like you, Stephen. If you

54:17

are doing this, and you're

54:19

keeping the names separate, but

54:22

you're giving them consistent

54:24

branding, so we've had cats

54:26

before, right on the Mac.

54:28

And then we've had

54:31

California places. But now

54:33

we're looking into the future.

54:35

We're looking into, you know,

54:37

futuristic technologies and we're looking

54:40

ahead. We're looking to expand

54:42

our horizons. Oh, I see

54:45

where you're going. And what

54:47

better way to look up

54:49

and above than space? Space

54:52

names. Can you imagine IOS

54:54

Andromeda and MECOS Andromeda? I

54:57

don't know, TVOS Orion

54:59

and Vision OS Orion.

55:01

Like, I've had OS

55:04

Uranus, you know. I mean,

55:06

it's right there. Yes, yes.

55:08

Or they could just say,

55:11

you know, I asked Pluto.

55:13

That's not a planet.

55:15

It used to be

55:17

an operating system, but

55:19

now it's not. I

55:22

don't know. I just

55:24

think. Cats, California, space.

55:26

I love it. Yeah,

55:28

I love it. I suspect that

55:30

we will hear much more about

55:32

this between now and WBC,

55:34

which really, Federico, not that

55:36

far away. It's what, two

55:38

and a half months? Only

55:41

two and a half months? Is

55:43

that right? A, probably, yeah, two

55:45

and a half months. Oh two months

55:47

three three three two and a half

55:49

to three. Okay. Yeah. It's next week.

55:52

It's tomorrow I do think we'll get

55:54

dates in the next two weeks or

55:56

we're entering that it's it's looking you

55:59

know not to not to not

56:01

to take a political turn but

56:03

it's looking increasingly how can I

56:05

say this challenging to to consider

56:08

a trip to the United States

56:10

if you're not American yeah these

56:12

days you know I get it

56:15

I get it I'm just gonna

56:17

say it you know people are

56:19

gonna hate me for it It's

56:21

right there, but the area around

56:24

Battersea is beautiful. Just do it

56:26

there. Do it. Everybody's gonna be

56:28

safe. W. B. D. Battersea. Right

56:31

there. That was bad even for

56:33

your standards. This episode of Connected

56:35

is brought to you by Google

56:38

Gemini. Jim and I Live is

56:40

the feature where you can just

56:42

talk to it and it's really

56:44

wild to have a full-on conversation

56:47

with this thing. I was messing

56:49

around and asking it to give

56:51

me some ideas for hosting an

56:54

event and when it starts giving

56:56

results you can just stop it

56:58

and say okay well what about

57:01

something low-key for a smaller group

57:03

and then adjust to that and

57:05

you can keep going until you

57:07

get an idea that you want.

57:10

I think it's really useful for

57:12

brainstorming things. It's good when you

57:14

don't know where to start or

57:17

if you hit a wall, you

57:19

can just open Gemini and it

57:21

helps you get the ball rolling.

57:24

But you can use it for

57:26

all kinds of stuff. If you

57:28

want to learn something new or

57:30

have it give you advice or

57:33

explain Bitcoin in simple terms, which

57:35

seems impossible, but it can do

57:37

it, or you can have it

57:40

quiz you on something like microbiology.

57:42

I mean, imagine being a student

57:44

and you've got a personal tutor

57:47

tutor on hand. It's hard to

57:49

explain. You really just need to

57:51

play around with it. See how

57:53

it listens, responds, and adapts to

57:56

your style of conversation. Just try

57:58

it out. It's free. Our thanks

58:00

to Google Jim and I for

58:03

their support of the show and

58:05

all of Relay. I've had this

58:07

thought. I think they accidentally realized,

58:10

I'm half joking, but also not

58:12

really, I'm not buying a Maxine,

58:14

did Apple accidentally make the world's

58:16

best AI desktop? Yes, I think

58:19

they accidentally realized, I'm half joking,

58:21

but also not really, that they're

58:23

making the best AI computers. Yeah.

58:26

I don't think that was the

58:28

goal when they started, you know,

58:30

sketching out Apple Silicon for the

58:33

Mac probably eight years ago now,

58:35

because we're five years into it.

58:37

So eight, ten years ago. But

58:39

they kind of fell into it,

58:42

I think. Now I think they've

58:44

embraced it since then, right? Like,

58:46

they're not continuing to be surprised

58:49

by it. But this has come

58:51

to light, especially with the Mac

58:53

Studio and the M3 Ultra. Y'all

58:56

have been writing about this on

58:58

Mac Storey, so what's the deal

59:00

here? The deal is that benchmarks

59:02

came out for the new Mac

59:05

Studio with the Emtree Ultra, and

59:07

it... It looks like a beast

59:09

of a machine. I especially want

59:12

to point people to these reviews/benchmarks

59:14

by Max Weinbach at Creative Strategies.

59:16

They have done an excellent job

59:19

comparing the performance of the new

59:21

M3 Ultra Max Studio, running on

59:23

device local large language models. So

59:25

the models downloaded and running locally

59:28

on the computer between the Mac

59:30

Studio and a PC setup using

59:32

the latest Intel Desktop high-end CPUs

59:35

and the Invidia RTX 5090 so

59:37

currently the best GPU in the

59:39

world for consumers. That is very

59:42

expensive. It's a very expensive GPU

59:44

and a very expensive setup all

59:46

around and the most surprising aspect

59:48

to me is that in a

59:51

vanilla setup, meaning you're just downloading

59:53

the model and you're running the

59:55

model with a non-optimized, not to

59:58

get too much into the weeds,

1:00:00

there's plenty of ways for like

1:00:02

programmers and developers to optimize a

1:00:05

large language model for an invidious

1:00:07

GPU, but if you just, you

1:00:09

know, set it up and you

1:00:11

run it, vanilla out of the

1:00:14

box, the M3 ultra absolutely obliterates.

1:00:16

the 50-90 and to the point

1:00:18

where so in this story just

1:00:21

I wanted to look up the

1:00:23

specs again they're using the 256

1:00:25

gigabyte version of the of the

1:00:28

Max stereo with the ultra so

1:00:30

they're actually not even using the

1:00:32

top of the line version. But

1:00:34

with these specs, and you know,

1:00:37

they have the 32 core CPU,

1:00:39

the 80 core GPU, they have

1:00:41

that unified memory, 192 gigabytes of

1:00:44

those 256 can be allocated to

1:00:46

V RAM, they have a 4

1:00:48

terabyte SSD, and if you just

1:00:51

look at the numbers, you know,

1:00:53

if you scroll down in the

1:00:55

story that is going to be

1:00:57

linked in the show notes, and

1:01:00

if you scroll to the LLLM

1:01:02

performance table, you're... going to see

1:01:04

that. For example, this person is

1:01:07

running one of the Quen models.

1:01:09

So Quen is the ultra-angut model

1:01:11

used by Ali Baba. That's going

1:01:14

to be according to the reports

1:01:16

one of the partners for Apple

1:01:18

Intelligence in China. They're running the

1:01:20

32 billion four-bit version of Quen.

1:01:23

The RTX50-90. can output almost 16

1:01:25

tokens per seconds. I know that

1:01:27

tokens are not necessarily words, but

1:01:30

you know for the sake of

1:01:32

simplicity and clarity on this episode,

1:01:34

think of like 16 instances of

1:01:37

the word hello. Like the word

1:01:39

hello tends to be a single

1:01:41

token. So imagine that every, yes,

1:01:43

hello, imagine that in, hello. Imagine

1:01:46

that every second, that large and

1:01:48

good model on a 1590 can

1:01:50

speed out 16 hellos. Hello, hello,

1:01:53

hello, hello, like really fast. It's

1:01:55

very eager to say hello. But

1:01:57

the ultra in the Mac Studio

1:02:00

can speed out 33 per second

1:02:02

of them. And that's basically like

1:02:04

twice the performance that you're getting

1:02:06

in a computer that is a

1:02:09

chunky Mac Mini. So yeah, I

1:02:11

do think that and and the

1:02:13

story goes on to like To

1:02:16

to sort of explain how a

1:02:18

lot of like a lot of

1:02:20

the work here is being done

1:02:23

by the open source framework that

1:02:25

Apple created for developers Which is

1:02:27

called MLX? It's an open source

1:02:29

framework that allows developers to fine-tune

1:02:32

larger which models specifically for Apple

1:02:34

Silicon and specifically for the unified

1:02:36

memory architecture of Apple Silicon. And

1:02:39

so when you combine those gains

1:02:41

and those optimization with models, there

1:02:43

are just, and you just want

1:02:46

to run them out of the

1:02:48

box, you get significant better performance

1:02:50

on a Mac Studio compared to

1:02:52

a 50-90, which basically leads into

1:02:55

this bigger topic of, is Apple

1:02:57

making the best AI computers for

1:02:59

consumers and just incurs right now?

1:03:02

Potentially, yes. Potentially, yes. It's a

1:03:04

couple of things here that are

1:03:06

interesting to me and reading through

1:03:09

this and I read through the

1:03:11

Apple open source MLX stuff and

1:03:13

I couldn't help but think about

1:03:15

things like OpenCL, which back in

1:03:18

like 2013 with the Trash Camac

1:03:20

Pro Apple was like, OpenCL, this

1:03:22

is how we're going to compute

1:03:25

on GPUs. And it just didn't

1:03:27

really take off. I mean, it

1:03:29

did in some circles, but not

1:03:32

hugely. Think about metal. for graphics,

1:03:34

right? Apple's graphics frameworks that volunteers

1:03:36

with purposes seem to be very

1:03:38

good and very perform it. Apple's

1:03:41

basically have... like twist the arms

1:03:43

of video game companies to port

1:03:45

their games to use metal right

1:03:48

but here there are a couple

1:03:50

distinct differences one because all of

1:03:52

these researchers and all this work

1:03:55

is happens in the open apples

1:03:57

been forced to publish these things

1:03:59

in a way that they probably

1:04:01

didn't do with open CL and

1:04:04

probably haven't done with metal and

1:04:06

even if There is a hill

1:04:08

to climb to adopt Apple's frameworks.

1:04:11

The hardware is so compelling that

1:04:13

people will do it, right? With

1:04:15

metal, yeah, like you can really

1:04:18

like make your game seeing on

1:04:20

an iPhone, but there the market

1:04:22

factor is there's a bunch of

1:04:24

iPhones and people with iPhones spend

1:04:27

money on apps. But here, if

1:04:29

you can make your model really

1:04:31

seeing on Mac hardware using Apple's

1:04:34

open source frameworks. you could be

1:04:36

saving significantly in terms of budget

1:04:38

when you're putting these things together.

1:04:41

And you know, the 5090 is

1:04:43

an interesting card because it can

1:04:45

do AI stuff, but it's also

1:04:47

marketed to consumers for gaming. But

1:04:50

when you get into like invidious

1:04:52

AI specific hardware that like these

1:04:54

AI companies are buying and putting

1:04:57

in like big racks in data

1:04:59

centers and data centers. It's a

1:05:01

different ball game in terms of

1:05:04

price. And you can't just get

1:05:06

some of that stuff. You've got

1:05:08

to have contracts and you've got

1:05:10

to have minimum buys and there's

1:05:13

waiting times. And you can just

1:05:15

order a pretty nice Mac Studio

1:05:17

on your phone and get it

1:05:20

on your doorstep in, you know,

1:05:22

10 days. That's amazing. And I

1:05:24

think... Yeah, I mean... For context,

1:05:26

an invidia H100. which is the

1:05:29

the invidia tensor-based GPU that is

1:05:31

using data centers that is usually

1:05:33

it goes for about $30,000. So

1:05:36

that gives you some context. That's

1:05:38

a lot of Mac Studios. Yeah.

1:05:40

I just think it's so interesting.

1:05:43

And they talked about this on

1:05:45

upgrade this week as well. Jason,

1:05:47

had John Gruber on. They were

1:05:49

talking about this. And I think

1:05:52

there's kind of two levels to

1:05:54

the conversation. There's like the framework

1:05:56

model sort of level that we've

1:05:59

been at. But then there's the

1:06:01

conversation of, well, if Apple wants

1:06:03

to continue to entice these companies,

1:06:06

is Apple Intelligence a stumbling block

1:06:08

for that? Like should Apple take

1:06:10

all of this and turn the

1:06:12

Mac into not only the best

1:06:15

AI computer for researchers and developers,

1:06:17

but the best AI computer for

1:06:19

consumers for consumers, but the best

1:06:22

AI computer for consumers. That I

1:06:24

think is a very different conversation.

1:06:26

And one that I'm not sure,

1:06:29

I'm just not sure where that

1:06:31

lands. I don't think, look, if

1:06:33

you're serious about AI, you're just

1:06:35

gonna ignore Apple Intelligence and like,

1:06:38

down these models on your Mac

1:06:40

or like run the chat GBT

1:06:42

app like a lot of us

1:06:45

do, or you're gonna find ways

1:06:47

to make it work for you.

1:06:49

I don't think this means that

1:06:52

Apple's like Apple intelligence efforts are

1:06:54

suddenly going to evaporate. Now. to

1:06:56

be clear they haven't been great

1:06:58

yet and they're behind and they're

1:07:01

going to fall more behind with

1:07:03

with the series stuff it seems

1:07:05

like. So I don't know like

1:07:08

do you view those as like

1:07:10

two different things? What are your

1:07:12

thoughts there? Hmm. I think I

1:07:15

keep coming back to this idea

1:07:17

that if Apple is falling behind

1:07:19

and you know by falling behind

1:07:21

we mean they don't have a

1:07:24

comparable suits of services when it

1:07:26

comes to AI that they can

1:07:28

offer to users and to developers.

1:07:31

If that's the case, I... I

1:07:33

think one potential avenue for them

1:07:35

to sort of get out of

1:07:38

this problem would be sort of

1:07:40

this twofold approach of, well, we're

1:07:42

going to make it the best

1:07:44

possible hardware that consumers can buy

1:07:47

and developers can buy, right? And

1:07:49

anecdotally speaking, it does seem to

1:07:51

me like... everybody who's really into

1:07:54

AI in terms of like, you

1:07:56

know, heavy users of AI products

1:07:58

or developers of AI software, like

1:08:01

everybody's just using a Mac these

1:08:03

days. But that's the hardware route,

1:08:05

like to just say we're going

1:08:07

to make the best possible hardware.

1:08:10

And sure, maybe invidia, you know,

1:08:12

captured the market in data centers,

1:08:14

but we're going to capture the

1:08:17

market at home. We're going to

1:08:19

make sure that the developers who

1:08:21

may be using, you know, expensive

1:08:24

data centers, when it comes to

1:08:26

their desks, they all have Macs.

1:08:28

And I would I would wager

1:08:30

that 90% of open AI employees

1:08:33

and engineers that are all using

1:08:35

MacBook Pros or Desktop Macs. Like

1:08:37

that's sort of the scenario that

1:08:40

I think Apple would be more

1:08:42

than happy to be like. But

1:08:44

at the same time, and I

1:08:47

had an article on Mac, stories

1:08:49

about this this morning, when it

1:08:51

comes to software, I think there's

1:08:53

one way to mitigate this narrative

1:08:56

right now and this problem right

1:08:58

now would be for Apple to

1:09:00

say, well, so everybody's building AI-powered

1:09:03

apps and software features these days.

1:09:05

And we, as Apple, and with

1:09:07

Apple intelligence, we are being completely.

1:09:10

left out of the conversation. Because

1:09:12

all of these developers are building

1:09:14

against APIs from Google, from Open

1:09:16

AI, from Antropic, from Deep Seek,

1:09:19

and they're not using any of

1:09:21

our, they're using our developer tools.

1:09:23

to build and run the apps,

1:09:26

but they're not using our APIs.

1:09:28

And all of these user data

1:09:30

and all of these APIs are

1:09:33

not going to us or going

1:09:35

to somebody else. Yeah. And I

1:09:37

think if you're Apple, and this

1:09:39

is the article that I posted,

1:09:42

like there is an interesting thought

1:09:44

of Apple saying, well, but what

1:09:46

if we sort of regained control

1:09:49

of that developer angle and instead

1:09:51

offered? Apple intelligence as sort of

1:09:53

like a middleman as an as

1:09:56

an as an intermediary between developers

1:09:58

and those third-party AI tools So

1:10:00

I had this article where I

1:10:02

imagine like what would an Apple

1:10:05

intelligence S decay as a bridge

1:10:07

to Chajipity or cloud or Gemini?

1:10:09

What would it look like and

1:10:12

why should Apple do it? And

1:10:14

I think it's interesting to think

1:10:16

about you know Apple in this

1:10:19

way Apple saying well You know,

1:10:21

instead of bringing your own API

1:10:23

key for CHIGPT, you can just

1:10:25

keep working with the Apple SDK,

1:10:28

you can keep working. We're going

1:10:30

to give you APIs that sort

1:10:32

of normalize the usage of cloud

1:10:35

or CHIGPT. They're going to be

1:10:37

integrated. They're going to be available

1:10:39

in UI kits. They're going to

1:10:42

be available in all of our

1:10:44

frameworks. You can build... for Apple

1:10:46

platforms, they're going to work everywhere,

1:10:48

you don't need to bring your

1:10:51

own API key for a third-party

1:10:53

provider, you can just be a

1:10:55

member of the Apple developer program

1:10:58

and we're going to give you,

1:11:00

you know, some API calls for

1:11:02

free on a monthly basis, otherwise

1:11:05

we're going to sell you a

1:11:07

subscription and that subscription for additional

1:11:09

AI integrations. Again, we're going to

1:11:11

act as the middleman, we're going

1:11:14

to act as an aggregator of

1:11:16

sorts. Those subscriptions are going to

1:11:18

be more affordable than if you

1:11:21

just go as an individual, as

1:11:23

an individual, or as a small

1:11:25

company, if you sign up for...

1:11:28

the standard business or enterprise plans

1:11:30

from opening AI, anthropic, Google and

1:11:32

so forth. So a potential idea

1:11:34

would be for Apple to say

1:11:37

we're going to, we already have

1:11:39

the control of the hardware because

1:11:41

everybody's just using Max these days.

1:11:44

But while we're building our own

1:11:46

large language model, we may sort

1:11:48

of regain control of the software.

1:11:51

aspect by saying you can build

1:11:53

with Apple Intelligence, you can use

1:11:55

those third-party APIs, but you're going

1:11:57

to go through us and it's

1:12:00

going to be better for you

1:12:02

because it's going to be cheaper,

1:12:04

and you're going to get a

1:12:07

privacy guarantee from Apple. That's something

1:12:09

I keep thinking about, you know,

1:12:11

big picture right now. Exciting times.

1:12:14

Well, for the Mac, for the

1:12:16

Mac, like... What did Gruber call

1:12:18

it on their infarable, like a

1:12:20

happy accident? And I think it

1:12:23

is. I think it is. And

1:12:25

I look, I don't know if

1:12:27

Apple is actually going to say,

1:12:30

you know, well, instead of rolling

1:12:32

your own integration with LGBT, use

1:12:34

the Apple intelligence as decay. But

1:12:37

I'll give you this much. They

1:12:39

themselves are doing it. for Syria.

1:12:41

They're falling back to JADPD and

1:12:43

Google to an extent to sort

1:12:46

of supplement the functionalities that by

1:12:48

themselves alone, they cannot offer. So

1:12:50

if Apple does it for themselves,

1:12:53

is there a scenario in which

1:12:55

they can do it for others?

1:12:57

And I think there is. Oh,

1:13:00

I think that does it. We've

1:13:02

come to the end of it,

1:13:04

here we go. I think we

1:13:06

did it. Lots of topics. Yeah.

1:13:09

It's been a very busy March.

1:13:11

You know, some year's March is

1:13:13

kind of quiet. Not this year.

1:13:16

Not this year. Not this year.

1:13:18

If you want to read more

1:13:20

about the topics we spoke about

1:13:23

or get yourself a sweet connected

1:13:25

shirt before they're gone, go to

1:13:27

Relay.If.../connected/543 for the

1:13:29

show notes. Those

1:13:32

notes are also

1:13:34

in your podcast

1:13:36

player. Let's go

1:13:39

find them. You

1:13:41

can leave feedback

1:13:43

at connectedfeedback .com. We

1:13:46

love to hear

1:13:48

from our listeners

1:13:50

and you can

1:13:52

join to get

1:13:55

longer ad -free

1:13:57

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1:13:59

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1:14:02

do each and

1:14:04

every week at

1:14:06

getconnectedpro .co. If you

1:14:09

want more of

1:14:11

Federico, he's the

1:14:13

editor -in -chief of

1:14:15

MacStories .net and

1:14:18

looking forward to

1:14:20

your column. We'll

1:14:22

let them sure

1:14:25

we'll talk about

1:14:27

that next week. Mike

1:14:30

is not here. Mike is

1:14:32

on paternity leave. Keep the Hurley

1:14:34

family. Maybe

1:14:37

just write Mike's name out and put

1:14:39

it on your desk in memory

1:14:41

of him. That

1:14:43

got weird. I didn't know where

1:14:45

I was going when I started

1:14:47

it and that's ended. Keep thinking

1:14:49

of Mike. Keep thinking of Mike.

1:14:51

Keep him in your thoughts. He's

1:14:54

out there raising a baby, sometimes

1:14:56

thinking about Apple and technology. Putting

1:14:58

Ys and words that don't have

1:15:00

Ys in them. Like Mike, for

1:15:02

example. You can

1:15:04

find me at 512pixels .net and I

1:15:06

co -host Mac power users. Here

1:15:08

on Relay comes out Asian every

1:15:10

Sunday. I'd like to thank our

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sponsors, Ecamm, NetSuite and Google Jim

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and I, and until next week,

1:15:17

Federico, say goodbye. Adi videcci. Bye,

1:15:19

y 'all.