0:00

You and I went through a few seasons

0:02

in our marriage, in our 42 years of

0:04

marriage, that it just seemed hopeless. I

0:07

mean, there was an 18 months time

0:09

span that you and I were in such odds, such

0:12

disunity, disharmonies, angry at

0:15

each other, just not

0:17

getting along. And I'll never

0:19

forget what really hit

0:21

me that brought me out of that season.

0:31

Okay, well, welcome to Conversations

0:33

with John and Lisa Bovir.

0:35

And this is, I'm so

0:37

excited. This is our first

0:39

recording in our studio offices.

0:41

Yay! In Franklin, Tennessee. Yes.

0:44

Yeah. So we are office in part time

0:46

and studio part time, and it works out

0:48

great and we love it. And

0:51

today I'm so excited about what we're

0:53

going to be talking about in conversations.

0:55

You and me both. John, I did a poll

0:57

a few weeks ago, maybe a week ago, where

1:00

I was asking people, hey, marriages

1:03

are under attack. I want to kind of know

1:05

where you are in your marriage right now. And

1:08

I gave them three options. I said,

1:10

first option being, oh my

1:12

gosh, I am living in a

1:14

nightmare. I feel trapped.

1:16

Second option is, no way, we're

1:19

flourishing. I love being married. And

1:21

then the third one being, it's

1:24

good, but it's not great. And

1:27

tragically, John, highest

1:29

response, 41% of

1:31

my respondents said they felt like they

1:33

were trapped in a nightmare

1:36

in their marriage. I

1:38

remember you sharing that with me. And the first thing out

1:40

of my mouth was Lisa. That's four out of every 10

1:42

marriages. And then if

1:44

we combine that with the people that said,

1:46

hmm, it's okay,

1:48

it's good, it's not great. Wait

1:53

a minute, so you combine it. So that was another

1:55

30%. Yeah, it was only

1:57

like 20 some percent. So that means seven out

1:59

of 10 marriages. are not in a good place. Not

2:01

happy, not thrilled, not flourishing.

2:04

And we understand what it is to feel that way. Can I

2:06

ask something else? Is this among Christians

2:08

or was it a general public? This is my

2:10

Instagram world. This is your Instagram world. My Instagram

2:12

world is a mixed bag. I don't know if it's

2:14

Christians, angry Christians. Some of the ways that people

2:17

talk about you on your Instagram account, I

2:19

wonder if it is all Christian. It's entertaining.

2:21

It is entertaining. It is quite a

2:23

wide spectrum. But either way, we care.

2:25

We care about marriages. We do believe

2:27

that marriages matter. Okay, now that's... Now

2:30

wait a minute. Don't just say that. You

2:32

said that to me last night. I did.

2:34

And I went, wow. It hit me hard.

2:36

I was thinking about it last night. Again,

2:39

this morning when I was reading the Word

2:41

of God, I thought, marriage is matter.

2:43

That is so well put. I

2:45

think it's also because God gave it to

2:47

you. You said God showed me something. Right?

2:50

And when God gives something

2:52

to someone, there's a weight to it. And when you

2:54

said it to me last night, Lisa, there was a

2:57

weight. And the very

2:59

fact that I would still be thinking about it

3:01

this morning and before we got on the program,

3:03

I said, hey, look, I'm going to say on

3:06

air, marriage matters. Marriages

3:08

matter because marriages matter to God. Right.

3:10

And one of the things that I've

3:12

heard a lot of people say, and I don't

3:15

disagree with what they say. A lot of times

3:17

you'll hope people say, marriage

3:19

isn't supposed to make you happy. It's supposed

3:21

to make you holy. Well, that

3:23

kind of sounds like miserable.

3:26

And we don't believe that we should

3:28

equate unhappy with holy. Okay, wait a minute. Jesus coming

3:31

back for a bride is not going to make them

3:33

happy, but holy. That just doesn't

3:35

sit right with me. Because, you know, first of

3:37

all, let me say this. I

3:39

get what they're saying. The Bible begins with marriage and the

3:41

Bible ends with marriage. And there's a lot about it in

3:43

between. And the marriage that it ends with is the one

3:46

with Jesus and his bride. And

3:48

I know that it's going to be a

3:50

seven year celebration or something like that. There's

3:52

a marriage supper of the lamb. It's like

3:55

seven years if I'm not mistaken. I have

3:57

a really long celebration. Yeah. And That's

4:00

how much he loves his bride. But I want at

4:02

least I want to read out of Malachi chapter two

4:04

before you jump into that Sure, I want I

4:06

want to just highlight John. I believe it can

4:08

be happy and holy Mm-hmm, and

4:11

and we believe that God cares

4:13

about Both he

4:16

wants joy. He refers to

4:18

marriages as Drinking

4:20

from a fountain. It's supposed to

4:22

be a place of refreshing a

4:24

place of intimacy And I think

4:27

too many Christians have bought into

4:29

the idea of well It's

4:31

holy but a miserable and and

4:33

it's God is God is has me

4:35

married to this person to make

4:37

me holy But holy

4:39

doesn't mean miserable Holy

4:42

means Consecrated. Yes. So go

4:44

ahead now read your scripture now that all

4:46

right This is Malachi

4:49

chapter 2 verses 13 through 16 south

4:51

of the New Living Translation Here

4:53

is another thing you do you cover the

4:55

Lord's altar with tears weeping and groaning Because

4:59

he pays no attention to your

5:01

offerings and doesn't accept them with

5:03

pleasure And how did they

5:05

know that John was it just because they

5:07

they weren't have they didn't have any joy

5:10

Because we hear in Malachi we walk around

5:12

like mourners and it seems that evil doers

5:14

are blessed You remember it said that yeah

5:16

I mean there were times when the prophets would

5:18

look at him and say hey away with

5:21

the noise of your music or the Noise

5:23

of your music. I want you know righteous

5:25

living. I don't I want justice I don't

5:27

want sacrifice and I think

5:29

either through the prophets it was spoken that

5:31

God said, you know, I'd say that profit

5:34

Yeah, I know you did. I'd say the

5:36

Prophet, you know, God spoke through

5:38

him and said hey your pig off your

5:40

your grain offerings Are like offering pigs blood

5:42

your lamb sacrifice like killing another man and

5:44

on and on and on they're like, whoa

5:47

Why yeah, so I'm sure probably came through

5:49

a prophet But well now like I was

5:51

a prophet the thing to know the things

5:53

really important is God says

5:55

I'm not accepting your worship

6:00

Okay, let's just make it, bring it into

6:02

the new Testament. There's an accept it with

6:04

pleasure. God's not happy. You cry out, and

6:06

this is probably the prophet is letting them

6:08

know at the same time. You cry out,

6:10

why doesn't the Lord accept my worship? I'll

6:12

tell you why, because the Lord witnessed

6:15

the vows you and your wife

6:18

made when you were young.

6:20

Now, the Lord witnessed.

6:22

Yeah, what does that mean? Okay,

6:24

I believe that a marriage

6:26

covenant is not between two people. I believe

6:29

a marriage covenant is between three people. I

6:31

believe it's between the man, the wife, and

6:33

God. And I think

6:36

so many times Christians don't realize. They think,

6:38

okay, I make a vow to this woman,

6:40

or I make a vow to this man,

6:42

and if they treat me right, I'm gonna

6:44

treat them right. Because

6:46

if they pass a certain point, I'm done.

6:49

And why? I've

6:52

even heard people say, we just grew apart. Not

6:55

even that somebody was

6:57

abusive. I just feel

6:59

like we grew apart. He

7:02

didn't make me feel special anymore. She

7:05

didn't make me feel special anymore. And

7:08

it's all focused on

7:10

what the other person does or does not do

7:12

for them. We grew apart. We

7:16

just have different pursuits. And

7:18

I'm gonna say this, that you

7:21

and I went through a few seasons in

7:23

our marriage, in our 42 years of marriage,

7:25

that it just seemed hopeless. I

7:27

mean, there was an 18 months time

7:29

span that you and I were in such odds,

7:32

such disunity, disharmonies, angry

7:34

at each other, just

7:37

not getting along. And I'll

7:39

never forget what really hit

7:42

me that brought me out of that season,

7:45

was when the realization hit me that I

7:47

made a covenant to God. Now,

7:50

the fear of the Lord is really

7:52

key to this. And I wanna be

7:54

really clear, you had not committed adultery. I

7:57

had not committed adultery. Neither of us were

7:59

unfaithful. We were both

8:01

very stubborn. We were.

8:05

And the fear of

8:07

the Lord is where we're actually terrified

8:09

of disobeying God. It's actually a good

8:11

thing. It's a healthy thing. It's not

8:13

being afraid of God because

8:15

you can't be intimate with God if you're afraid

8:17

of Him. It's actually, you're

8:20

like, I don't want to disobey

8:22

Him. I re-

8:24

reverence Him, honor Him to such a high

8:26

degree that I don't care if it's my

8:28

own hurt. I won't disobey Him. When

8:31

I realized our vows weren't just between

8:33

us but they were between God, you

8:36

and me, I think it really caused

8:38

me to be a lot more serious

8:41

about my end because

8:43

I kept thinking, well, she treats me like this. Why should I treat her?

8:47

Why should I serve her? Why should I do this for her? Why should

8:49

I? Now, don't get me wrong. You

8:52

were probably thinking the exact same thing because I was being a jerk

8:54

at the same time. I was like, you

8:56

were never home. I was never home. I wasn't

8:58

there. I just wasn't there for you. Okay? I

9:01

shouldn't say being a jerk. Yeah, there

9:03

were spurts of that, but it

9:05

was just I wasn't there. I was disconnected.

9:08

I was more married to the ministry than I

9:10

was to you. Okay? And

9:14

that's getting my priorities out

9:16

of line because God's first,

9:19

not ministry, God's first, marriage is

9:22

second, children are third, then

9:24

what you do is fourth and

9:26

then church is next. So I

9:28

was putting ministry up there with

9:30

God and neglecting you, neglecting the

9:32

boys. And that was

9:34

creating a lot of hurt in you.

9:37

And of course, I'm not going to

9:39

get the kind of behavior I was

9:41

looking for when I'm constantly doing that.

9:44

It just doesn't matter. I realized I

9:47

can't base how I treat

9:49

you off of how you treat me. And

9:52

I realized it was like in those time periods, God spoke to

9:54

me one day and He said, son, I said, love your wives.

10:00

three times just in Ephesians 3. Because

10:03

I kept saying, well, this and this, and Lord, you've

10:05

got to correct her and you've got to do this,

10:07

and I need to correct her, because she do, and

10:09

Lord said, I said, love your wife. I didn't say

10:11

correct your wife one time in Ephesians 5. Now

10:14

don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean I'm not a

10:16

leader, it doesn't mean I'm not gonna steer the family

10:18

direction, I believe is right, but

10:20

I realized I'm not called to

10:22

correct you and get you to behave the way

10:24

I want you to behave, so then I can

10:26

honor you in the covenant that I made with

10:28

you and God. I realized

10:30

I have to treat you like you're

10:33

treating me perfect, because

10:35

I made a covenant with God, and

10:37

that kind of changed my heart, Lisa.

10:39

Now what's interesting is, we

10:41

talk about a feelingless marriage, that's

10:44

the people that say, okay, God wants

10:46

your marriage to make you holy, not

10:48

to make you very happy. Okay,

10:51

God is a God of feelings, He's the one

10:53

that created our feelings. I believe

10:55

we make the decision to love, and I

10:57

believe then feelings follow. So

10:59

I did discover this, and Tim Keller really

11:02

helped me with this. The word

11:04

in Ephesians 5 where it said, men ought to

11:06

love their wives, that is

11:08

a verb or an adverb, I can't remember

11:10

he said, that means I will

11:13

make the commitment to put the action

11:15

in place, even if I don't feel

11:17

it. And he explained it, it was

11:19

so beautifully. He said, I'm gonna

11:22

explain it to you in the opposite direction. In

11:25

the 1930s and 40s, the

11:29

German people distained

11:32

the Jewish people. Then they

11:34

started doing acts of, busting

11:37

out their windows in their shop, destroying

11:39

things in their shops, then they started

11:41

putting them into slums, and then it

11:43

went to concentration camps. And he said,

11:45

what happened was, they

11:48

had this hatred, this lack of love for these

11:50

people, they treated them with

11:52

it, they acted it out, and

11:54

it turned into a stronger hatred, they acted that

11:56

out with the slums, and it turned into even

11:58

a stronger hatred. where they didn't even

12:01

think they were doing wrong by

12:03

murdering innocent people. So the

12:05

opposite is true in our marriage. If I make

12:08

the decision to carry

12:10

out the acts of love towards you as a

12:12

husband should with his wife, the

12:14

feelings can in

12:16

the opposite direction, those feelings of

12:19

emotion, of love or romance and all

12:21

that. So I made the

12:23

decision in my own heart. I

12:25

know you had to do some things to

12:27

get through my stupid behavior, but my

12:29

decision was I'm just gonna act like

12:32

she's the perfect wife in the world. I'm a treater like

12:34

I would if she was treating me perfect. And

12:36

it really turned things, Lise. Yeah,

12:38

I love that. And we haven't even finished the

12:40

scripture, but something you

12:43

said, I remember reading or

12:45

appearing at this African proverb where

12:49

men would come and they

12:51

would trade like a cow for

12:54

a woman. So they would go to the father

12:56

and say, I wanna marry your daughter, trade one cow or

12:59

two cows and there was this one

13:02

girl that nobody was picking and then this

13:04

guy comes along and he

13:07

gives five cows for this girl that

13:09

nobody else had picked. And they said,

13:11

why would you give five cows for this girl?

13:14

She was like the last one to be chosen.

13:16

He said, because I wanted a five cow wife.

13:19

And he said, I'm going to honor the

13:21

wife she will be in

13:24

the future rather than just

13:27

actually paying for

13:29

something in this moment. And

13:32

I think often, that's what

13:34

Jesus does for us. He says, I'm

13:36

going to give my life for you

13:39

when you are enemies believing

13:42

that you'll become sons and daughters. So

13:44

I mean, there's this brother sister. Yeah,

13:46

you're gonna become a bride. We're faithless

13:48

and then we become faithful. But going

13:50

onto the scripture, it says, because the

13:52

Lord witnessed the vows you and your

13:55

wife made when you were young.

13:57

And then it goes on to say. But

13:59

you have. been unfaithful to her. Now, I

14:01

want to say this. I'm

14:04

going to go out on a limb here and say

14:06

that this doesn't even mean that

14:08

they're committing adultery because I

14:10

want you to listen to what he goes on

14:12

to say, though she remained your faithful partner, the

14:14

wife of your marriage vows. Notice

14:16

how God brings it back to vows again. Didn't

14:19

the Lord make you one with your wife? In

14:22

body and spirit, you are

14:24

his. Now, the English Standard

14:26

Version says, with a portion

14:28

of the Holy Spirit in

14:31

your union. Wow. So he's

14:33

saying that there is an

14:35

impartation of God's very spirit

14:37

that makes us one

14:40

when we make a marriage vow.

14:42

See, I look at just as the

14:44

Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, a

14:46

virgin, and she

14:48

gives birth to a fleshly

14:51

baby. I believe the Holy

14:53

Spirit makes a man and a woman one when

14:56

they make a vow before God. I

14:58

believe he makes them one. And that's what I learned one day. And

15:01

then it takes one

15:03

in the flesh. And then to be honest with you,

15:05

I believe it takes time to become one in

15:08

our souls and our emotions.

15:10

Yes. It takes a lot

15:12

of years sometimes. I mean, for you

15:14

and I, I mean, you

15:16

and I have laughed. If something

15:18

happened, I don't think we'd go into marriage again

15:20

because I don't want to go through that whole

15:22

process of becoming one with somebody in the soul.

15:24

Well, I promised my boys, if you ever

15:27

died, I would never marry again. So that

15:29

was honoring a promise to my son. I'll

15:31

just get a puppy. Who counseled us in marriage.

15:33

I wish I would have listened to him closer

15:35

before we got married. He said, it's a divine

15:37

merger. He said, your spirits are going to become

15:39

one instantly. Your flesh is going to become one

15:41

on the night you consummate that marriage. He said,

15:44

the hard part is the merging of the two

15:46

souls together because you're two different people. And

15:49

I think that's why Peter says, dwell

15:51

with your wife with understanding. Understand she's a,

15:54

she is a, even though she

15:56

has a different soul than you, but you're

15:58

one. And what doesn't mean same? So,

16:00

like I thought, okay, so I thought now if

16:02

I'm gonna be one with John, he needs to

16:05

think the same as me. He needs to discipline

16:07

the kids the same as I think they should

16:09

be disciplined. He needs to look at this the

16:11

way I look at it, and it's not same,

16:13

it's one. And

16:15

a lot of times I think

16:17

that causes the problem. Because when

16:19

you have two people who are

16:21

two unique individuals and God's making

16:23

them one, we think one equals

16:25

same, but one does not equal

16:28

same. Right. One means one. People that meet you

16:30

and I go, oh, you two are very different. I

16:32

mean, they'll laugh. They'll say, but

16:34

yet they see that we're one. Yes,

16:37

one in purpose. Yes, one in purpose, one

16:39

in focus. One in commitment. Yes. Right.

16:42

All right. So now, where

16:44

are we at? You're just got done with ESV.

16:46

And what does he want? Godly

16:48

offspring from your union. Okay,

16:50

so we're gonna go past that one. We could

16:52

talk about it. No, I think we should talk about it.

16:55

Because a lot of people don't understand

16:57

what this means. When it says, what

16:59

does he want? Godly offspring from your

17:02

union. So does that mean if a

17:04

couple doesn't have children, then

17:06

their marriage isn't valid? No, because

17:09

he isn't just talking about natural

17:11

children. I believe that

17:13

marriage is a catalyst who turns

17:16

us into more godly

17:18

versions of the children of God.

17:21

So it is a twofold thing. It's

17:23

not just he wants babies.

17:26

God isn't up there saying, I want you miserable. I

17:29

want you holy because I

17:31

want babies. He's not saying

17:33

that. He is saying that

17:35

godly offspring, and we are

17:37

his offspring. So it isn't

17:39

just about babies. Can I say like, are

17:42

we refining tools of each other? Yes. I think

17:44

we are in the hands of God. You

17:46

have been the biggest blessing. And

17:48

the biggest refining tool. And the biggest catalyst

17:50

of growth. Yes, and the biggest refining tool. I've

17:53

asked for that. I mean, we've got to be honest there, but

17:55

there's been times you probably wanted to hit me. I

17:57

do hit you. I just like that. But yes. Here

18:00

we go. What I'm saying is there's times

18:02

you're really upset with me or times

18:04

I've been really upset with you. And

18:06

who am I upset with is really

18:08

the fact I'm upset with the process.

18:11

There's a process I'm going through that's refining

18:13

my soul and making my soul more like

18:15

Jesus. So I'm becoming more of

18:18

a child of God and God's using

18:20

this marriage union to help them. Godly. Yes,

18:23

I do believe that marriage, God

18:25

is called marriage to make us

18:27

holy. But that

18:29

doesn't mean I'm happy and miserable. It

18:32

means joyful and holy. So just remember joyful

18:34

and holy and the joyful will come if

18:36

you obey the holy. I believe if you're

18:38

willing and obedient, you eat the

18:41

good of the land. You partake of

18:43

the goodness of God. Okay, this

18:45

is really interesting what he says next. So

18:47

guard your heart and remain

18:49

loyal to the wife of your youth for

18:51

a hate divorce, says the Lord, the God

18:53

of Israel. Now we'll go back over this

18:55

in a minute. The divorce your wife is

18:57

to overwhelm her with cruelty, says the Lord

18:59

of Heaven's army. So guard your

19:02

heart. Now what I want to

19:04

point out is twice God says, guard your heart. And

19:06

this is where I went out on the limb and

19:08

I said the unfaithful doesn't necessarily mean that these priests

19:10

were committing adultery with their wives. I

19:13

believe that their heart in

19:15

their heart, they closed off

19:17

their heart to their wife. They

19:19

shut their affection against their wife. I

19:21

mean, Jacob did this with Leah. Unfortunately,

19:24

he did not love her. He

19:26

was unfaithful to her. That's

19:29

what I'm saying. Even though he stayed married

19:31

to her for seven years. He stayed married.

19:33

He actually, you know, her sister. But

19:37

I believe when you shut your heart up to your

19:39

spouse, you're being unfaithful because you made

19:41

a commitment to love you and sickness and

19:43

health, better and worse, you know. And God

19:45

tells us to love our wives. He

19:48

doesn't say conditionally love your wife as she's behaving

19:50

the way you think she should behave. It

19:53

also says in the book of Titus that women are

19:55

to teach their daughters how to love their husbands. So

19:57

we're commanded to love each other. teach

20:00

the younger women. And just as women are

20:02

told to submit to their husbands, we are

20:04

told to submit to one another. Okay, so

20:06

in the fear of God. Saying that

20:08

you are to love and lead like

20:10

Christ loves and leads. And that

20:12

we'll get into in the next podcast because this

20:15

is more than a one part podcast. Do you

20:17

feel like, do you feel like, I mean,

20:19

I love this guard your heart,

20:21

remain loyal, loyal, loyal,

20:24

loyal to your wife. And then also says, guard

20:26

your heart. Don't be unfaithful to your wife. So

20:29

I want to hit something that I think is really

20:31

prevalent in this culture. You

20:34

and I, we did a big move. I

20:37

feel like we're vagabonds, but we used to live in Florida.

20:40

And then we did this massive move to

20:42

Colorado. And for the first time, I had

20:44

some female friends. And I'd

20:46

go with my female friends and we'd sit around the

20:48

dinner table. And things

20:51

would come up where so

20:53

there's four women sitting at the

20:55

table. Two of them

20:57

are like, all men are

20:59

this, they always that they're

21:02

all bad. And

21:04

I would sit there at the table and I remember

21:06

I would leave the house, not upset

21:08

with you. And I'd come home and want to be

21:10

like, oh man, or, and I

21:12

would, I would watch the conversations.

21:16

Poor gasoline on the wrong fire in my life.

21:19

And it was, you know, we were in a

21:21

season of transition. We're in a brand new city.

21:23

We're in a brand new season. We're

21:25

traveling a lot at, and I'm home

21:27

with the kids and, and I'm navigating all

21:30

these changes where I feel like I'm navigating

21:32

them alone. And I remember God

21:34

saying to me, would

21:36

you want John going out with

21:38

men who all they do is

21:40

talk bad about their wives? See

21:43

that is not being loyal. When

21:45

you, when you go on, sometimes even as a

21:47

woman, you think you have to throw your same

21:49

chips in there like, yeah, I agree. Guess what

21:51

my husband did. And you're dishonoring your

21:54

husband or your wife. And so that is

21:56

one of the ways that the enemy gets

21:58

in when we. Dishonored

22:01

and we are unfaithful to our husband

22:03

or wife even just in conversations and

22:05

everything in the culture right now entertainment

22:09

wise Feeds that

22:11

so there's a couple of relationships. I've

22:13

had to actually put it Bay. I've

22:16

had pull away I remember

22:18

because they didn't

22:20

speak well of you they actually

22:24

created an an animosity in my

22:27

heart towards you and

22:29

I realized that I had to pull away

22:31

and it was very painful because I really

22:33

love these people But I

22:35

realized that that marriage covenant is

22:37

so important and I can't have anybody

22:39

including me or anybody else any close

22:41

friends That are that are actually speaking

22:43

words that are going to create a

22:45

greater distance between you and I in

22:47

our hearts So I had to guard

22:49

my heart by saying okay. I'm gonna

22:51

pull away from this person That was

22:53

hard to do but yeah, let

22:56

now in hindsight. Yeah in years.

22:58

I'm so glad I did it

23:00

Yeah, and so that's a part

23:02

of remaining loyal now. We're We're

23:05

what what your friends that

23:07

you had to pull away because you had to

23:09

do same thing Yeah, I had to do exactly

23:11

and they were talking about about you. Okay, so

23:13

actually what they were saying was right. I Was

23:17

I had behavior that if we if

23:19

judgment would have come down me on that moment.

23:21

I Would have been

23:23

judged, okay But

23:26

you know God said I see what you're

23:28

gonna be clean and

23:30

I believe that's what the love of God does the love

23:32

of God Believes the best in every person. So the love

23:35

of God has the ability to say, okay, I'm gonna see

23:37

where this person's going Now if

23:39

you listen to the Holy Spirit You'll

23:42

be able to do it and I think

23:44

Lisa to me the greatest Example

23:46

of this I've ever seen in my life Well,

23:49

there's two of them, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna

23:51

name one is Elsa Yeah, she's

23:53

okay. So you and I know we're talking about

23:55

yeah, this is a woman and I want you

23:57

all to listen is really carefully because this is

23:59

going to take this. Both of us are going

24:01

to do this, but it's going to take some

24:04

explaining and then we'll close. And I think we

24:06

need to pick this up next time. But we

24:09

were ministering in a particular state and

24:11

we had noticed that the wife was

24:15

so radiated the

24:17

image of Jesus. I mean, she was, I mean,

24:19

she, her face radiated to me. And I would

24:21

say we were probably in our early thirties when

24:23

we met them. And I mean, so I

24:25

just want people to know, you and I looked at each

24:27

other while we were there and said, this is probably one

24:29

of the most godly woman we've ever met. Well,

24:33

at one point you and I were sitting out at

24:35

their beautiful pool at their house and she opened up

24:37

and shared with us how her

24:40

story and what her story was. Now

24:42

that she was conservatively older than us, her husband

24:44

was considerably older than us. He

24:46

was an associate pastor for a very large church

24:49

and four times he got caught in

24:54

homosexuality with other men while they

24:56

were married. Right? The last time

24:58

it was actually an undercover policeman

25:00

who brought him to the front door and

25:03

her old son, her 16 year old son

25:05

answered the door. And

25:07

she, she

25:10

said that she really went to prayer and

25:12

God spoke to her and he said, even

25:15

before that, I want to, she told us,

25:17

she told us that the church said

25:19

to her, listen, um, of

25:23

course we have to, we're removing your husband

25:25

from his position. If you

25:28

divorce him, we will, we will take

25:30

care of you. But if you stay with him, we

25:33

won't, we'll cut you off. And

25:35

she said how they lived on

25:37

apricot, preserve

25:40

and stuff. Let me go to the next statement. Next

25:42

statement is, is she went to prayer about it and really

25:44

went to prayer. When this woman said I went to prayer,

25:46

she went to prayer. And God said, you can leave him

25:49

and I'll bless you. She said, but

25:51

if, but God said to her, if you stay with

25:53

him, I'll bless you double. Now, this is not and

25:55

restore him. I will bless you. Now. I'm

25:57

going to make this really clear to everybody. This is not

25:59

always the answer. God would give because I've

26:01

seen situations where there's been unfaithfulness and

26:03

God has said leave. It's

26:05

always a choice. Okay. Yes.

26:08

But in this situation, God saw where this man was

26:10

going to go. And

26:13

in prayer, God gave her that view.

26:15

He said, stay with him. This

26:17

is where this is what's going to happen. So

26:21

you said it. She was living on apricot preserves. I thought

26:23

she got down to the point where they just had one

26:25

loaf of bread left and that was it. Nothing

26:28

else but apricot preserves or something like that.

26:30

I mean, they literally had hardly any food.

26:32

She said it was tough. It was very

26:34

costly. But now remember what God said. I'll

26:36

bless you double. Now fast

26:39

forward. We're sitting with them 17 years

26:42

later at something like that.

26:44

Yeah. He is now the senior

26:46

pastor of the church and

26:48

God gave her a creative idea where she

26:50

was taking care of some senior citizens and

26:53

they had a 12,000 square foot home and

26:55

an orchard in their backyard in the

26:57

most beautiful gardens I've seen. She was

26:59

taking care of seniors. Seniors in that

27:01

house and they were deeply in love

27:03

with each other. And I

27:06

got to see her not long ago. I

27:08

mean, I say not long ago. I mean, she's like one of my heroes.

27:10

Yeah, I say not long ago. It was when

27:12

I was a Modesto and I want to say

27:14

it was eight years ago maybe and she was

27:16

still radiant. She was lovely. Oh yeah,

27:18

of course. And so I

27:20

just want to say this that that

27:23

was the situation in which she

27:25

was able by the Spirit of God. Remember

27:28

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will show you

27:30

things to come. So she's

27:32

sitting there fighting. She's like, God, what do you

27:34

want me to do? And God even gave her

27:36

permission. I'll bless you. But if you

27:39

stay with him because I know it's going to be tough.

27:41

He actually told her in prayer. It's going to be tough

27:43

and I'll bless you double. Now I

27:45

just want to say to everybody, this is

27:49

what we get to do as being sons and daughters

27:51

of God because Jesus said the

27:53

Spirit of God will show you things to come. He

27:55

will. God will reveal. He is the

27:57

God that we serve who knows the end from the beginning.

28:01

And what I want to say is thank you

28:03

to Lisa because I believe

28:05

that I just I was you

28:08

stuck with me I just was behaving

28:11

in ways that were just stupid. You

28:13

know, I basically were I know but

28:15

I chose the ministry I put all

28:17

my energies into the ministry and yet

28:21

Thank you for for listening to the Holy Spirit

28:23

realizing that one day I would get this thing

28:25

back in line again So I thank

28:27

you, honey Well, okay

28:29

Well, and part of the reason why we

28:32

are talking about marriage is we do believe

28:34

it matters and we've had some younger couples

28:36

Say we love it when you guys talk

28:38

about marriage And so we are going to

28:40

be committed to letting you know kind of

28:43

opening up a window being vulnerable about our

28:45

own Life, but I want you to know

28:47

if you're out there and you're just feeling

28:49

like your marriage is hopeless Maybe

28:52

you you're in that crisis situation

28:55

We're just going to challenge you to to lean

28:57

into prayer and ask the Holy Spirit what

28:59

is he speaking to you in this moment

29:01

and Just believe

29:03

that God cares about you Individually

29:06

and he cares about your spouse

29:08

and he cares about your marriage

29:10

and I do believe that marriage

29:12

is Something worth

29:14

fighting for so I want to just thank

29:16

everyone for tuning in today Please remember to

29:19

rate review and subscribe like all three of

29:21

them to the show when you rate and

29:23

subscribe It helps us get the message out

29:25

to even more people but Lisa. Let's

29:27

tell everybody also if you don't have

29:29

messenger Yeah, I was just gonna go ahead. Yeah

29:32

No, that's you don't have messenger X download it if

29:34

you got an iPhone Just go to the app store

29:36

type in messenger X no space between the R and

29:38

the X it is a free I

29:40

mean literally it's a multi-million dollar app We put

29:43

a lot into this and our partners are the

29:45

ones that provided it for you But it's for

29:47

the marriage course on there But it's a marriage

29:49

book and a marriage course on there called the

29:52

story of marriage want to encourage you I mean,

29:54

I'm getting ready to do a marriage ceremony for

29:56

one of our board members and I

29:58

said to them I want you guys reading this book and they

30:00

grabbed it and they're going through it. But we've

30:02

had so many people testify their marriage

30:04

has been so strengthened as a

30:07

result of reading this book. Because on this

30:09

podcast, we're only gonna be able to cover

30:11

small portions of what's said. Maybe even

30:14

we say some things you go, what?

30:17

Look, you get the full picture in

30:19

the book, all right? We try to

30:21

stay as scriptural as possible, stay as

30:23

much in line with what God says

30:26

about marriage as possible. We do

30:28

it with all of our heart. We had brown hair

30:30

in the- Yeah, we had brown hair when we

30:32

did the course. So listen, if you heard something today,

30:34

you went, wait a minute, that bow's just not tied

30:36

for me. Well, then you know what?

30:40

Go to the book, because we made sure we

30:42

tied everything up for you. And it's in

30:44

a number of languages. Yes, it is. Yeah,

30:46

so it's not just in English.

30:48

It's in Spanish, Farsi, Arabic, Chinese,

30:50

Russian, a number of languages. So,

30:53

but listen, conversations with

30:55

John and Lisa is part

30:57

of a family of podcasts. We'll have

30:59

At Home with the Verveers, Healthy

31:02

Pastor Podcast, The Fight for

31:05

a Female, and The

31:07

John Verveer Podcast. Until

31:10

next time, this has been Conversations

31:12

with John and Lisa Verveer. We

31:15

hope you enjoyed this episode of Conversations

31:17

with John and Lisa Verveer. If you

31:19

haven't already, make sure you subscribe and

31:21

rate this podcast wherever you love to

31:23

listen. Also, if you haven't already, go

31:25

right ahead and download Messenger X to

31:27

hear more content from John and Lisa

31:29

Verveer and other great messengers. Again, thank

31:31

you so much for joining us, and

31:34

we'll see you next time on Conversations

31:36

with John and Lisa.