0:58

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting , the podcast

1:00

that provides hope , healing and

1:02

understanding for anyone who's been ghosted

1:04

. I'm your host , Gretta , and

1:07

today I'm exploring the intersections

1:09

of gender sexuality

1:11

and ghosting in dating and

1:14

relationships with my guest , aaron Karman

1:16

. Aaron's a licensed clinical

1:19

professional counselor based in Chicago

1:21

, illinois , with over 20 years

1:23

of experience . He's a Gottman

1:26

Seven Principles Program educator

1:28

, certified clinical hypnotherapist

1:31

and holds an advanced certification

1:33

in stress management . Aaron's

1:36

also the author of the Anger

1:38

Management Workbook for Men an

1:40

instant anger management

1:42

quick and simple CBT strategies

1:45

to diffuse anger on the spot

1:47

. His approach focuses on

1:49

identifying physical cues , recognizing

1:52

thoughts , considering consequences

1:55

, implementing solutions , choosing

1:58

behaviors and promoting expression

2:00

. Thank you for joining me , aaron .

2:03

Thanks for having me . I'm really excited to have this

2:05

opportunity to have a conversation

2:07

.

2:08

Me too , and I

2:10

just want to share something with new listeners

2:12

that I use the Oxford Dictionary's

2:14

definition of the word ghosting

2:17

for my podcast , and it's the practice

2:19

of ending a personal relationship

2:22

with someone by suddenly and without

2:24

explanation withdrawing from

2:26

all communication , and so

2:29

this is different than

2:31

leaving an abusive situation without a goodbye

2:33

or disappearing after

2:35

a boundary has been violated

2:38

. So , just

2:40

to kick things off , erin , I'd like to

2:42

share some of the stats I found

2:44

on male versus female ghosting

2:47

and dating , and this is

2:49

from a 2023 Forbes

2:51

Health One Poll survey that

2:53

polled 5,000 people in

2:55

the United States who had actively dated

2:58

at some point during the last five years , and

3:00

the results showed that

3:03

60% of daters

3:05

had been ghosted and

3:07

45% say they've

3:09

ghosted someone else , so 44%

3:14

of males and 47%

3:17

of women admitted

3:19

to ghosting someone else . I

3:22

just want to point out that this study didn't

3:25

define ghosting in the

3:27

same way that I do . It actually

3:29

said that people could ghost when

3:31

they're scared or intimidated by the

3:33

person , and it showed

3:36

that 10% of males and 13%

3:38

of women ghosted for

3:40

those specific reasons . But still

3:43

, I think overall , the study is

3:45

very interesting . And

3:48

then I have one more study , which is from

3:50

the Thriving Center of Psychology

3:52

and they surveyed a thousand

3:55

millennials and Gen Zs

3:57

and they found that 69%

3:59

of women had ghosted someone and

4:01

61% of

4:03

men had ghosted someone . And

4:05

again , the definition of the word ghosting

4:08

it may differ from the one that I use

4:10

in the podcast . So I just wanted to

4:12

share that and just to kick

4:14

things off and get started . I'm

4:17

wondering what your thoughts

4:19

are about that . But

4:21

my first real question

4:23

is gender

4:26

is complex and our understanding

4:28

of it is evolving . So

4:30

how do ghosting behaviors intersect

4:33

with the complexity of people's gender

4:35

identities and how those

4:37

play out in diverse kinds

4:40

of relationships ?

4:42

Well , you know , I find that research

4:44

, that information is shared , compelling because

4:46

it kind of tracks a lot of the work

4:48

I do with my clients . I work with primarily

4:51

individuals and couples and

4:53

I hear all across the relationship

4:55

spectrum , whether it's the people dating

4:58

or they're engaged , they're divorcing , they're on second

5:00

relationships or reconciling with old relationships

5:02

all different kinds of populations

5:05

of people . And I

5:07

think that you know there's a line

5:09

my friend told me is like you know , gender

5:11

doesn't have a monopoly on

5:13

crappy behavior , that there are people

5:15

who are just going to be avoidant

5:17

or selfish or , you know

5:19

, maybe they're hurt , there's trauma , there's a lot

5:22

of reasons why people avoid

5:24

having a conversation when they're

5:26

ready to break up , and I feel like

5:28

there is not just going to be

5:30

one answer , just like one shoe doesn't fit

5:32

everyone's foot . There isn't one answer

5:35

and I appreciate that . You

5:37

know there's so many complexities

5:39

that are going to be nuances

5:41

that are going to be part of this

5:43

conversation . So I'm going to speak

5:46

as a straight , cisgendered white male

5:48

who comes at this from working

5:51

as a psychotherapist with over 20 years of experience

5:53

, but no way is this going

5:55

to be representative of all people from

5:57

all walks of life , and so I just want to be very

6:00

clear about that kind of perspective

6:02

I'm offering . You know , I think that there's

6:04

a lot of experiences that people have

6:06

with core communication

6:08

and that informs

6:11

a little bit of how they're managing their emotions

6:13

. Part of that is , you know , again

6:15

coming with identity , and so gender

6:17

obviously plays a huge part in how

6:19

we are socialized and how we interact

6:22

with people around us . And there's

6:24

, you know's , some component

6:26

of men policing men , women

6:28

policing women about what is appropriate

6:30

behavior . How do we respond to

6:32

these kind of situations of

6:34

loss or feeling dehumanized

6:37

, or people being insensitive

6:39

, or just feeling unloved

6:41

or even feeling attacked

6:43

, where someone is being I

6:46

don't want to even judge the behavior , but someone's

6:48

feeling attacked , and it ultimately

6:50

leads to these feelings where we're devalued

6:53

. And that experience of being devalued

6:55

is really how , unfortunately

6:58

, humans are able , I think , to treat

7:00

each other with less respect

7:02

and dignity . Because we don't see a person

7:04

as a complex , unique individual

7:07

, it's easy to do terrible things

7:09

to that person , and whether we're

7:11

talking emotional things , we're talking abusive

7:13

things , we're talking all kinds

7:15

of unfortunate human behavior , and

7:18

therein lies the hurt that comes

7:20

from being ghosted , the pain that arises

7:22

. A lot of people have experiences

7:24

with feeling invisible , and I think

7:26

that is fueling some gender

7:29

dynamics , whether we're talking the trans

7:31

community , whether we're talking about

7:33

people who have different kind of identity

7:35

issues , whether we're talking about people

7:37

who are coming at this from

7:39

being marginalized

7:42

in lots of different ways . And when

7:44

we get ghosted , all of those pre-existing

7:46

kind of emotional concerns get amplified

7:49

. And so a lot of those reactions

7:51

are also connected not just to the current

7:53

moment but to our historical experiences

7:55

.

7:57

Yeah , I agree , I

7:59

understand , and people

8:01

tend to personalize it . So being

8:04

ghosted doesn't reveal anything

8:06

about the person who's being ghosted , but often

8:09

it reveals how they feel

8:11

about themselves , and their reactions tell

8:13

that story Right .

8:15

Right and there is , unfortunately , systemic

8:18

oppression , whether we're talking in gender

8:20

or race or sexual identity

8:22

. There's been things that have been amplified

8:25

. I think COVID really did impact

8:27

about how we connect and how we relate , or

8:29

our sense of commitment and belonging

8:31

to each other , rather than just thinking

8:34

about what we need to do to protect ourselves

8:36

. And I think you know , again , technology

8:38

has also played a hand in this , where it's

8:40

a lot easier to ghost somebody technology-wise

8:44

, because I think you , I think so

8:46

much of our communication isn't . The

8:48

old days , talking on the phone was the only way

8:50

, and now , talking on the phone , there

8:52

must be something very serious that we need to have a phone

8:54

call , and so technology kind

8:57

of creates a space for miscommunication

9:00

and also for the absence of communication

9:02

, because there's so many reasons

9:04

why technology fails us and

9:06

there's so much reliance on technology to be the

9:09

bridge that connects us .

9:11

Yeah , I agree , you could just swipe onto the

9:13

next person . Just keep on going . Just

9:15

who cares about their failings ? You don't know them , you don't

9:17

know their family , you don't know like . You're anonymous

9:20

, basically , on these dating apps , so why even

9:22

care ?

9:25

Like empathy levels have really dropped Right and I think in there it's easier

9:28

to hide , it's easier to withdraw

9:30

. Yeah , excuse me , to put that

9:32

kind of boundary in place Now , sometimes it's

9:34

appropriate . We need that boundary because , again , it's

9:36

different kinds of relationships . People can

9:38

feel threatened . It's like , well , you know

9:40

, I tried to talk to this person and

9:42

they weren't accepting the fact that we were

9:44

going to break up . So therein lies a different

9:47

kind of definition of ghosting and therein

9:49

lies a different kind of experience where I think

9:51

a lot of what is hurtful is

9:53

just that again you

9:55

don't even respect me enough to communicate

9:57

that feeling of loss of dignity , that

10:00

feeling dehumanized that really

10:02

starts to push people emotionally

10:04

to some really desperate places .

10:07

Yeah , it's so painful to be ghosted

10:09

. It's one of the hardest things that I think

10:11

we can go through in terms of relationships

10:14

. It's soul crushing and

10:16

you just think , was that even real ? Did they

10:18

even care ? Like ? I just feel invisible

10:21

. I feel like I don't even matter .

10:24

And there's an unfairness , an injustice

10:27

. I've invested my time , my effort , my energy

10:29

, my emotion , my attention and

10:31

we all want some ROI , some

10:34

return on our investment , even if it is

10:36

just the courtesy of like , hey , you

10:38

know , like this isn't , I'm not feeling this , I'm not

10:40

feeling that connection , but having some maturity

10:43

, having some , I guess

10:45

, confidence that I can deliver that

10:47

message . But unfortunately a lot of people aren't

10:49

taught how to be

10:51

confrontational . Confrontational doesn't have to be

10:53

aggressive . Confrontational is like you

10:55

know , hey , I don't like this . That's

10:57

kind of letting people know and that can be a

10:59

boundary . But I believe in , you know

11:02

, confrontation being a healthy thing because

11:04

it doesn't have to involve aggression , it doesn't have to

11:06

involve being mean . Again , it's the

11:08

behaviors that become problematic , not

11:10

only the feelings . Feelings like fingers

11:13

and toes . That's kind of . What makes us human is we all have

11:15

the same core feelings . So regardless

11:17

of our background , our identities , our sexuality

11:20

, the same human emotional experiences

11:22

deserve to be recognized . And

11:25

when we feel again , I'm not

11:27

worth the time , the effort , the energy , the

11:29

attention , that is really

11:31

degrading and that feeling , then

11:34

what do I do with it ? Because now this person has cut

11:36

off from me and I'm just left to sit

11:38

with that . And there's this grief , the

11:40

shock , the sadness , the anger , the bargaining

11:42

, those stages of grief and acceptance , and

11:45

there's these kind of ways that we are

11:47

grieving . And again , we all

11:49

had loss in our life , whether it's a person , opportunity

11:51

, an experience , a relationship

11:54

. And so grief today from grief

11:56

in the past . On an emotional

11:58

level , on a biological level , it's very triggering

12:00

because your heart metaphorically

12:02

doesn't know about , today or yesterday

12:05

, this person or that person , so it only

12:07

compounds that pain of loss

12:09

.

12:09

I've really struggled with the grief of

12:12

oh , I thought I had a future with this person

12:14

. I'm mourning my future .

12:18

Number one . One of the number one answers I hear

12:20

from clients is like I'm not just losing

12:22

the relationship , but is that the runway

12:24

we built , going forward , the life we imagined

12:27

, the vision of the future that we had

12:29

shared ? And now it feels

12:31

like I'm again . I'm back to square

12:33

one , even though we don't lose the experience

12:36

. It's easy to feel like I'm

12:38

not getting return on this investment and

12:40

this thing was being taken from me and

12:42

so it's almost this violation , and

12:45

that just leaves people in this very vulnerable space

12:47

. And then what do I do with that

12:49

vulnerable experience ? And that's

12:51

really where I think it helps to kind of

12:53

lean into the community . There's friends

12:55

, there's family , there's a therapist , there's

12:58

lots of other people , because this is not , unfortunately

13:00

, unique to one person . It's unfortunately

13:03

very common , right , as

13:05

those stats prove .

13:06

Yeah , I mean , I feel like I've only

13:08

met a very small handful of people

13:10

who say , oh , I haven't ever

13:12

been ghosted . And I just think , like

13:15

, is that really true ? And some of

13:17

those people have come back to me months later

13:19

and been like oh yeah , I just remembered I actually was

13:21

ghosted , but it's like they block that part out

13:23

of their memory because it was like almost so traumatic . They

13:25

just kind of compartmentalize it .

13:27

Sure , and that's , you know , in my world we call it

13:29

disassociation , like you kind of

13:31

. Like , you know , remove yourself like this time

13:33

and place and space in your life it's like , and

13:36

we almost kind of block it out because it helps

13:38

protect us from this pain . And it's

13:40

actually a very normal way of dealing with what

13:43

we would call trauma in my line of work and

13:45

it's to say , well , breakup's not traumatic

13:48

, but it very much can be , not always

13:50

, but a lot of especially ghosting amplifies

13:53

the likelihood of this trauma because it's unresolved

13:55

grief Excuse me , it's unresolved grief .

13:58

Yeah , so In

14:01

your work , what gender and sexual

14:04

orientation differences have you encountered

14:06

related to ghosting ?

14:08

The differences are pronounced

14:11

when it comes to like I think

14:13

a lot of men and how

14:15

they feel emotionally disengaged

14:18

and being uncomfortable , being

14:20

vulnerable , and I think , again , a lot of

14:22

that can come from . These are sweeping generalizations I'm

14:24

going to preface that once again of

14:26

men feeling uncomfortable

14:29

, being emotionally vulnerable . And a lot

14:31

of men are socialized to be tough and

14:34

to be strong , and even male

14:36

identifying clients that I've worked with

14:38

kind of lean into that gender

14:40

norm of what it is to be strong

14:42

and tough and masculine and macho , of

14:47

what it is to be strong and tough and masculine and macho , and it

14:49

borders on these kind of dynamics of toxic masculinity and

14:51

this fragile masculinity . And again , how do people

14:53

see themselves ? They're looking left

14:56

and looking right , because these ideas

14:59

aren't necessarily that I define myself . I

15:01

want to fit in with a peer group . I want to fit

15:03

in and be just like everybody else self , I

15:05

want to fit in with a peer group . I want to

15:07

fit in and be just like everybody else . And

15:12

so there's this facade that even if I'm hurt and in pain , a lot of times those emotions are avoided

15:14

, and I think that unfortunately happens a lot more with male

15:16

identifying clients than female On

15:18

the other side , I find a lot of my female

15:21

identifying clients struggle to

15:23

express the frustration because

15:25

there's a lot of socialization of what is

15:27

ladylike or feminine or what is not

15:29

appropriate , and again , this might

15:31

seem very binary and very

15:34

gendered , but I feel like this is

15:36

about a lot of how we are socialized

15:38

, specifically as well to the United States

15:40

, because you go to other countries and what

15:42

is gender specific and normal in

15:44

that kind of phrase of you know

15:47

what is we look left and we look right

15:49

and we feel like this is what everybody's doing

15:51

. It's different when you're in France or

15:53

if you're in Japan versus you are in America

15:55

and even people who are immigrants

15:58

that come to this country . I've worked

16:00

with a lot of those clients and I find that they

16:02

struggle to really like this is , you know

16:04

, maybe Latino machismo verse

16:07

like I want to be sad because this person

16:09

I invested so much of my heart into is

16:12

just disappeared from my life , and

16:14

so I find that there's human reactions

16:17

, but a lot of socialization does

16:19

play a part in how it manifests

16:21

. Just like you know , we all have anger and

16:23

I work a lot with people who have anger

16:26

, and so anger is one of those things . That's

16:28

pretty normal , pretty typical , but how

16:30

it's gender defined . What is appropriate

16:32

, you know it's I will externalize

16:35

my anger , because I've got to be tough and strong

16:37

, versus I'll internalize my anger

16:39

and be self-critical and judgmental , and

16:42

how a lot of that is . Again , we don't sit

16:44

in a God bless . Today we get social emotional

16:46

learning , but you know , a generation

16:49

ago these were things that were

16:51

whispered . They didn't talk about feelings

16:53

, they didn't talk about how to process these

16:55

larger emotional reactions . So

16:57

we learned math and science in school , but we had to

16:59

DIY a lot of how to deal with our

17:01

feelings and we learned it from

17:03

our parents , our siblings , our grandparents

17:06

, our lovers , our friends , and

17:08

they were imperfect teachers as well

17:10

. And so I think there is a lot

17:12

of differences that do manifest

17:15

. But I think if we peel the onion , you kind

17:17

of a couple layers deep , you're going to find it's

17:19

the same for all kinds of people

17:21

.

17:22

Wow , that's so interesting and

17:24

insightful . I

17:26

asked my Coping with Ghosting Facebook

17:29

group to ask questions about

17:31

this topic and one person wrote in and

17:33

said I'd be very curious to

17:35

see how common ghosting

17:37

is based on sexual identity

17:40

. Like a comparison between LGBTQ

17:43

communities and straight communities . Does

17:45

someone's sexuality make them

17:48

less or more likely to ghost

17:50

?

17:52

Well , you know , I think that a lot

17:54

of times , our partner is a proxy for our past

17:56

, and so the experiences

17:59

we're having with the person who ghosted us is really

18:01

speaking to a lot of our previous

18:04

experiences and our journey most

18:06

of us is really speaking to a lot of our previous experiences and our

18:08

journey , and

18:14

for people who are in LGBTQ plus communities , I find that there is this sense

18:16

of hiding yourself , of feeling invisible , that they've lived with throughout , whether

18:18

it's being in the closet , whether it's feeling

18:20

like they are not able to express

18:23

their true identity and their appearance and

18:25

their choices in life , and so a lot

18:27

of these grievous experiences

18:29

then get magnified when

18:32

someone is ghosting , because it's like I'm not feeling

18:34

heard , I'm not feeling seen , I don't

18:36

have a voice . And now here

18:38

I am , this person has cut me off and I'm not

18:41

able to be heard or seen . I don't have a voice

18:43

, and so I feel that there's an

18:45

amplification of that past pain

18:47

and trauma that really is fueling

18:50

the intensity of the response

18:52

to the person who's being , you know

18:54

, was ghosted in the present .

18:57

Yeah , wow , that's really hard

18:59

. I have a really good friend

19:01

who is a gay man

19:03

and he told me that he

19:05

gets ghosted a lot and

19:08

I think that you

19:10

know . I did look up stats to try and see

19:12

if there had been any research

19:14

done in this area and it

19:16

hadn't . But just from my experiences

19:19

as a coach , where people who have been ghosted

19:21

I've seen that it happens across

19:23

the board . Just like you were saying , like in all

19:25

relationships there are crummy , you

19:27

know people , people who have crummy communication

19:30

skills . So I'm not exactly

19:32

sure if I could answer it Like if someone's

19:34

sexuality makes them more or

19:36

less likely to ghost , but

19:38

it is . It is really

19:41

painful and we're all going to have a different reaction

19:43

to it and , like you were saying , just a reaction

19:46

based on the feeling of already being

19:48

invisible and marginalized

19:51

. It's deeply painful

19:53

.

19:54

And to lean into that idea there . Gretta

19:56

, physiologically in the brain

19:58

, the area that is pain is

20:00

associated with rejection . So really

20:02

the same parts of your brain that get activated when

20:04

you hurt your shoulder , you hurt your back are

20:06

activated when you get rejected . And

20:09

so there is like when you say , like the heartbreak

20:11

, the physical pain , like people go through ghosting

20:13

and they're like feeling it , like physiologically

20:15

feeling it , there's a real biological

20:18

connection . They've done MRI studies to

20:20

speak to this and so like it's

20:22

something that people are like , oh , it's just heartache

20:24

, you know , get over it and people try to minimize it , but

20:26

like your physiology is fighting . That

20:28

, because you know we are all built for this fight

20:31

, flight or freeze kind of experience

20:33

. When there's a threat and that feeling

20:35

of rejection is a huge threat to

20:37

our sense of self , our sense of security

20:40

and stability , to that point of the future

20:42

, to that point of the future . And when we go through that

20:44

fight or flight , where is this kind of either

20:46

I'm going to attack from something , I'm going to withdraw from

20:48

something . And you think about how sometimes people

20:50

respond to ghosting , where they want to attack

20:53

or they shut down because it

20:55

is very much feeling threatened and they're trying

20:57

to protect themselves . Now , there's no

20:59

physical threat in front

21:01

of them , but this kind of emotional threat

21:03

. It's almost like worse , because there's nowhere

21:05

to put the Band-Aid , there's nowhere to you know

21:07

, this is what you do . God bless you . Your broken leg is

21:09

what you do when you have a heartache . When you

21:11

have this kind of loss , rejection , and

21:14

you're feeling dysregulated physiologically

21:16

, it's not just like , okay , well

21:23

, you snap your fingers or you take an aspirin . It is like unpacking and processing , and

21:25

that's where the grief response really becomes , I think , a useful model .

21:28

Yeah , exactly , If

21:30

somebody is in physical pain because

21:32

they've been ghosted and they want to start

21:34

unpacking this , is

21:37

there an emergency toolkit

21:39

that you would recommend just off the top of your

21:41

head , like a few initial

21:43

steps to kind of move past the

21:45

, the oh

21:47

, there's the heartache .

21:50

Well , I'm a big fan of journaling . I

21:52

find journaling , writing self-expression

21:55

, is a powerful tool . I

21:57

always use the metaphor of a sponge . You absorb this

21:59

pain , this frustration , this hurt , this loss

22:02

, this feeling humiliated , whatever

22:04

that emotion is , and , like when a sponge

22:06

is full , it's saturated just pushes everything around

22:08

. We can't absorb good or bad , so

22:10

we need to release , so then we can absorb other

22:12

things . And so writing is sometimes

22:14

a tool that we can . It doesn't

22:16

I'm not your penmanship or spelling , your grammar , that all

22:19

none of that matters , it's just a cathartic

22:21

release to let it out . And

22:23

I've had clients write three lines big

22:25

, vulgar things they want Great Because

22:28

it's . Again , I would rather

22:30

somebody channel it into the written word

22:32

or the typed word than they have to

22:34

like carry it around . And then somebody , I

22:36

don't know , like bumps into them with their coffee and then

22:39

they're like snapping and going off the deep end

22:41

or something small disappointment

22:43

at work . And somebody is in tears Because

22:45

again there's this transference of these feelings

22:47

that from the past

22:50

is fueling our responses in the present . So

22:52

journaling can be a great tool . I also

22:54

think you know there's a space for self-compassion

22:56

, that people take a risk . That's

22:58

what dating is right . We're taking a risk , we're

23:00

going to make ourself vulnerable , we're exploring

23:03

this potential for a wonderful relationship

23:05

and even if the risk doesn't

23:08

work out , we still can feel compassionate

23:10

that I did something hard . I pushed

23:12

my comfort zone , I took a risk , I

23:14

made myself vulnerable and I can feel

23:16

a sense of pride and accomplishment from that

23:18

, because these are generally hard

23:21

experiences . That's what makes

23:23

you know if we didn't care

23:25

, we wouldn't feel any of these things . It's kind

23:27

of , you know , absurd to think that we're going to get emotional

23:29

about things we don't care about . And to

23:32

care is a risk and

23:34

not letting that turn you into someone who's

23:36

cold and indifferent but like to

23:38

feel empowered by , like you know what . I'm

23:40

a caring person and I'm not going

23:42

to let whatever that's going on in the world around

23:44

me shape that feeling

23:46

, take that away from me , and

23:49

so I think that there's some self-compassion there and

23:51

that leads to self-care . What can I do to kind

23:53

of reward myself for pushing my comfort zone

23:55

? I'm not saying a trip to the Bahamas may be great , but

23:57

you know I live in reality . I can get a massage

24:00

, I can go , you

24:09

know . A pedicure , a manicure , I can go , you know , hang out with some friends . I can just even connect and

24:11

buy some you know something , some music that I like to listen to . I can go out dancing . There's a lot of

24:13

ways to allow ourself to lean into the things that make us feel good . People can

24:15

add to that , but nobody takes away what we do

24:17

to make ourself feel good , and I

24:19

think that's what's also important here

24:22

is that somebody can take

24:24

away a relationship , but they can't take away

24:26

your confidence unless you let them . They

24:28

can't take away your self-compassion unless

24:31

you let them , and so what we

24:33

do control are our efforts , not always

24:35

the outcomes .

24:37

I couldn't agree with you more . I think those are great

24:39

action steps to take after you've been ghosted

24:41

. I really appreciate that

24:43

, and I do have a whole podcast episode

24:46

about journaling after being ghosted

24:48

, featuring Dr . Kelly Kirksey . So

24:50

, listeners , if you haven't already

24:53

, go check that one out . Hi

24:57

, it's Gretta . Did you know that

25:00

I offer private coaching ? I'm

25:02

here if you've been ghosted in

25:04

love , maybe by a family member

25:06

, a friend or even someone

25:08

you work with . My coaching sessions

25:10

are solutions focused

25:12

. Together , we'll explore your goals

25:15

and work through the thoughts holding

25:17

you back from moving forward . I

25:19

provide gentle , personalized

25:21

guidance to help you rediscover your confidence

25:24

and live a life you love

25:26

. One of my clients shared this

25:28

testimonial with me . He said

25:31

the exercises Gretta gave me

25:33

were impactful , and I think the biggest

25:35

impact was made just by talking

25:37

to her . I would never confide these

25:39

things to my friends . It's just not something

25:42

I want to talk to them about . So it was

25:44

great to talk to her , someone who

25:46

has been through the ghosting , I

25:48

seriously appreciate it . If

25:51

you're ready to start , visit copingwithghosting . com

25:54

or click the link in the show notes

25:56

to book a session with me . I

25:58

can't wait to work with you . Now

26:01

back to the episode: I

26:05

also wanted to touch

26:07

on attachment style . I

26:10

already have a whole episode on attachment

26:12

style , ghosting and healing relationship

26:14

trauma featuring Rose Vigiano

26:17

, and a lot of other episodes

26:19

touch on this hot topic as well

26:21

, and I just would like to hear your thoughts

26:23

about how attachment

26:26

style influences ghosting and how does

26:28

that interconnect with gender

26:30

, sexuality and

26:32

culture .

26:34

Well , again , I think a lot of the attachment

26:37

style is a universal human experience , so

26:39

it's not necessarily going to be correlated

26:41

with , if the specific gender or specific

26:43

culture , because I think these are

26:46

again just human experiences

26:48

, and so I want to just kind of put

26:50

that big , broad brushstroke out there . You

26:52

know , I find a lot of times , you know , what

26:55

happens is that our

26:57

attachment styles that's something we're consciously aware

26:59

of . We're not like , oh well , I'm attached , or insecurely

27:01

attached or I'm , you know , avoidant . It's

27:04

something that manifests when we are

27:06

filling these voids in our lives . And

27:08

so it's important , I think , for people

27:10

to take some accountability of , like , what

27:13

am I bringing to this experience and

27:15

what is my , how does my attachment style influence

27:17

how I'm responding ? Because I think

27:19

people can be , let's say , avoidant , and

27:21

avoidant I liken to like being an island

27:24

and you're kind of isolating

27:26

yourself . You know there's not . The

27:28

problem is when people come needy and they start to encroach

27:30

our island , it makes us uncomfortable . We

27:32

want to make more room for ourselves , we want to push

27:34

people away , which can feel like a mixed

27:37

message . You're bringing in people , but

27:39

there's almost a shame for being

27:41

needy , for needing your own space , because

27:43

a lot of avoidant people who are

27:45

islands , do things themselves , and

27:48

so yet we want to be in a relationship , but

27:50

we want to do it ourself . Well , you

27:52

can't DIY a relationship . You have to

27:54

make space for this other person , and

27:56

so there's often this feeling , historically

27:59

, of I was neglected and I want to protect myself

28:01

from being neglected , so I'll just be an island

28:03

, I will just take away that

28:05

power from other people to hurt me and I will

28:07

withdraw . And so you think about ghosting

28:10

in these terms of well , why is this person

28:12

not responding ? Avoidant

28:16

? And so they're used to withdrawing , because

28:18

it's what they do to regulate themselves , they

28:25

almost soothe themselves , and that might be like hi , my name's Aaron . I'm going to

28:27

avoid an attachment style . It's probably not going to come out in that very direct

28:29

way , but you notice these things when there's conflict

28:31

, when things get elevated , when things get

28:33

tense or there's a lot of pressure God bless

28:36

, we all deal with stress , and so people

28:39

can feel trapped and engulfed

28:41

, and so they might shut down , they stonewall

28:43

, they withdraw , and that's

28:45

a little bit of like okay , hey , I can be aware

28:47

of what's going on with me or what's going on with

28:50

my partner . There's also people

28:52

who are kind of disorganized

28:54

and there's what we would , I

28:56

think of like a wave , and so you think

28:58

of like a wave is pushing and pulling , and

29:01

these are a lot of people who like to go away , come

29:03

closer . There's a lot of mixed messages

29:05

. They threaten the relationship , even though they don't

29:07

want to leave the relationship . There's

29:09

this kind of disorganized

29:13

because there's mixed messages , are really

29:15

it's like well , it's really confusing to the other person

29:17

, like you care about me but you're not responding

29:19

to me , you know . And then you do respond to me and you

29:22

flood me like 20 texts in like an hour

29:24

, and like those kinds of reactions

29:26

are also speaking to somebody who has

29:28

maybe history of trauma , who doesn't feel safe

29:30

, and so they need to have some kind of control

29:33

and they're pushing back and forth like a wave . And

29:35

of course , then there's like the securely attached people

29:37

and everyone's like oh , it's great to be securely

29:40

attached , because you know , I think of securely

29:42

attached like an anchor and it's like stable and

29:44

strong . But the problem

29:46

with an anchor or a securely attached person is they're

29:48

easily influenced by the waves or the islands

29:50

. Everything around them can shape

29:53

how they respond . So they're a bit of a chameleon

29:55

. So , as much as they're secure , that

29:58

influence doesn't mean that they can be a little passive

30:00

. They don't always assert themselves . They're

30:03

so accommodating . They always don't like take

30:05

the space to say this is what I need

30:07

. And so when you think about

30:09

these different attachment styles related

30:11

to a breakup , it's like , well , somebody

30:14

is like influencing me , so you push me away , I'll

30:16

push you away . Okay , well , that's not going

30:18

to lead us to any kind of closure

30:20

or conversation . You're somebody who's

30:22

disorganized . It's like , well , the mixed messages , I'm

30:24

confused , I'm not sure what they really need , and

30:27

so that leaves us kind of flustered . And then , like

30:29

you know , we don't talk , and then we'll talk like a

30:31

month later , and then we don't talk and then we'll talk like

30:33

six months later . It's like that hot and

30:35

cold experience is really frustrating

30:37

and it sends a lot of dysregulation

30:40

to the person receiving those messages . And

30:42

, of course , then the avoidance style is the most obvious

30:45

, I think , when it comes to ghosting . It's like , well , they just disappear

30:47

, they just are avoiding me . But

30:49

a lot of times they're having the shame for having needs

30:52

, they're struggling with their own

30:54

pain , and that's really what's causing

30:57

them to avoid and I could

30:59

have just said hey great , I just don't take it personal . But

31:01

like that doesn't help , that doesn't work right , because

31:03

it's not as simple as just not taking it personal

31:05

. All of these kind of reactions

31:08

are grounded in our developmental experiences

31:10

. We come to our relationship

31:12

based on a lifetime of stuff , and that's

31:14

why I think I said earlier that our partner is kind

31:17

of a proxy for our past and

31:19

so a lot of ghosting behaviors either

31:21

. What's wrong with me and I feel shame . Why do they

31:23

do this to me ? And a

31:25

simple strategy that is kind of challenging

31:27

to put into practice is what does it say about them

31:30

? What does it say about the other person and

31:34

the more we can lean into that , what does it say about

31:36

the job that didn't respond to me ? What does it say about the partner

31:39

that didn't respond ? What

31:42

does it say about the job that didn't respond to me ? What does it say about the partner that didn't

31:44

respond ? What does it say about the family ? There's lots of ways that this can manifest in my work as

31:46

a therapist , and so it helps to . Really we of course the main character in our own

31:48

lives , but I think there's a way

31:51

where we get stuck in a single story that

31:54

, like my story , is the right story

31:56

and like there's lots of stories that we can use

31:59

to understand why people treat us the way they

32:01

do .

32:03

I really like that you brought up . Well , what does

32:05

it say about them ? And I'm wondering what

32:08

story let's just say , hypothetically , you were

32:10

ghosted today by somebody you really cared about

32:12

. What would your answer

32:15

be to the question what does

32:17

it say about them ?

32:20

Well , I think , again , there isn't

32:22

one answer . I think it's going to fit all people , but I think

32:24

there's something about like , maybe

32:27

they're scared , maybe they're disappointed

32:29

with themselves , maybe they feel their own sense

32:31

of shame . What is , again , I'm

32:33

going to lean into emotionally , because

32:36

this isn't a logical problem . Just to be clear

32:38

, like , logically it's like why wouldn't we just talk to each

32:40

other ? But because logic is so simple

32:42

and straightforward , this isn't the land of logic . Relationships

32:45

aren't logic . Relationships are all about emotion

32:48

, and so I lean into

32:50

like , well , are they feeling guilty about something

32:52

? Are they feeling disappointed about something ? Are they ashamed

32:54

of something ? Are they worried about something ? Are they sad about

32:56

something ? I'm

33:02

going to go through a whole litany of emotions that can create different

33:04

stories , and the more we can do this , the more we understand that

33:06

I'm only one of those stories

33:08

. They're doing this to me , but

33:11

I lean into that idea of what

33:13

does it say about them ? And there's this

33:15

kind of neuroplasticity in our

33:17

brain . The

33:23

more we're able to think about other stories , the more we're able to think about it's

33:25

not just about me . And that translates into a lot of other factors of life

33:27

, because so much of life we take personally , when

33:29

it isn't unfair to me , life

33:31

is just unfair . It's not that there is

33:33

just injustice to me , there's injustice

33:35

to the world . People aren't just insensitive

33:38

to me , people are just insensitive . And

33:41

we can keep going through this , where it's not always about

33:43

what I did or didn't do .

33:46

Right , and I really like how

33:48

you stated that , because it just gives

33:51

you more of , like , a broader

33:53

perspective on this very serious

33:55

issue . And when

33:59

you challenge the narrative

34:01

and you kind of question well , okay

34:03

, so this is a person that is

34:06

unable or unwilling to talk

34:08

to me and I don't

34:10

know why , but I can surmise

34:13

that it is maybe

34:15

because one of these many reasons . Well , I

34:17

don't know which reason it is , so I'm not going to make it this a story about me lacking

34:19

so . I'm not going to make it this a story

34:22

about me lacking something

34:24

. It's not going to be a story about my fears or

34:26

insecurities with myself , but it's going

34:28

to be more of a story of well

34:32

for me . Now I have empathy

34:35

for people who ghost because they're

34:37

unable to show up

34:39

to a mature and healthy relationship , and that's

34:41

kind of just the bottom line . And people who

34:43

are unable to show up to a mature

34:45

, healthy relationship and

34:47

they coldly and suddenly vanish

34:50

without a word , well , that really

34:52

reveals a lot about their

34:55

character and it and , in a way

34:57

, like that's just that sucks for them

34:59

. That sucks for them , well , not

35:01

only because they lost me , but because

35:04

they are . They're just

35:06

that's life on a struggle bus .

35:08

Yes , and that's

35:10

, I think , this idea of like . We all have deficits

35:13

. There's never been a perfect human

35:15

. There never will be a perfect human , and

35:17

I can tolerate the deficit

35:19

. I don't like traffic , I don't like standing

35:21

in line . I tolerate things I don't like because I want to get

35:24

somewhere . I want to be in a relationship

35:26

, so I have to tolerate other people's deficits

35:28

in order to get the relationship I want to have

35:31

. People are going to have to tolerate my deficits

35:33

because this is going to go long term

35:35

, and so it's less

35:38

about blame and judgment and pointing fingers

35:40

, because all that does is like dig a hole to get out of a hole

35:42

. We just end up deeper in the pain . It reinforces

35:45

the neural pathways in our brain . We all remember

35:47

more emotional things and pleasant things

35:49

, and so it's kind of pumping

35:51

the brakes on the emotional side of what's wrong

35:53

with me and why they did this to me , versus

35:56

like how do I make sense of another person

35:58

, how do I understand the world around me

36:00

? And that helps me to have very

36:02

different perspective and again allows

36:05

my brain to think about myself as

36:07

healthy , as stable , as this

36:09

isn't going to define me , this isn't going to change

36:12

me . It's like you know , get a bad windshield

36:14

wiper , you don't get a new car , you get a new windshield wiper

36:16

. We work on the parts of ourselves , those

36:18

deficits right I . We work on the parts of ourselves , those deficits right . I think what happens

36:20

a lot of times is you become the all . The

36:23

whole car needs to be replaced . It's rather

36:25

than just look at the parts of ourselves

36:27

, the parts of that other person , and

36:29

so it becomes a different way of processing

36:31

these abandonments and rejections

36:34

and losses .

36:37

Right , right , wow . Are

36:44

there any final ?

36:45

words or thoughts that you want

36:47

to leave with the listeners . No-transcript

37:12

. People are dating because they

37:14

want to have some long-term support , a relationship

37:16

, and I think that's very

37:18

much grounded in what we need to

37:21

be healthy people is we need to be attached

37:23

to other people as much as people

37:25

can do things themselves

37:27

and be loners . I think we are

37:30

all instinctually connected

37:32

to another person , and so

37:34

I would encourage people , despite

37:37

being hurt , despite the pain , just

37:39

like an old wound that sometimes

37:41

, you know , I hurt myself , people hurt themselves

37:43

when they're younger , and then they do something

37:45

today and like , oh , my shoulder hurt , but it's like not

37:48

the thing today , it's the old wound

37:50

, and so it's being able to separate our

37:52

old wounds from the activities and

37:54

the people , the relationships in our life today

37:57

, because , again , this is all part of the

37:59

journey and so , like a lot

38:01

of things , if you're able to put it in the right

38:03

perspective , then you feel like

38:05

you can manage it a lot easier .

38:06

Smaller bites I

38:09

love that . Thank you , yeah , absolutely

38:12

. How can listeners connect

38:14

with you ?

38:15

You can find me online . I'm at wwwcarmencounselingcom

38:19

and I have two books available

38:21

on Amazon . I have the Anger Management Workbook

38:24

for Men and Instant Anger Management

38:26

, both available through

38:28

Amazon , and my name

38:31

is again Aaron Carmen , and I encourage listeners

38:33

, if they have questions , to shoot me an email or

38:35

to check out my books to learn more about my

38:37

approach .

38:39

I love it and I've read the books and

38:41

thank you so much for them because they're really good . Highly

38:44

recommend them and thank

38:46

you so much for joining me today and being here .

38:48

It's been a pleasure . Thank you so much for the opportunity

38:50

.

38:52

And listeners . Please follow Coping with Ghosting

38:54

on social media . Join my free and

38:56

private Coping with Ghosting Facebook

38:58

support group and leave a review

39:01

for this podcast , because your

39:03

feedback will help people who have been ghosted

39:05

discover ways to heal and

39:07

finally remember . When you're ghosted , you have more

39:09

time to connect with yourself and people who

39:11

have stellar communication skills . You

39:14

deserve the best . You're

39:16

just a ghost

39:18

to me .