0:18

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting , the

0:20

podcast that provides hope , healing

0:22

and understanding for anyone who's

0:24

been ghosted . I'm your host , G retta

0:27

, and today's focus is long-term

0:30

relationship ghosting . I'm

0:33

honored guest introduce my guest ,

0:35

Dr . Stan Tatkin , a clinician

0:37

, researcher and developer

0:39

of the Psychobiological Approach

0:42

to Couple Therapy , PACT . He

0:44

speaks and teaches around the world on

0:46

how to understand , create and

0:49

sustain secure , functioning

0:51

relationships , and more than

0:53

1.7 million people have

0:55

tuned into Dr Tatkin's

0:57

TEDx talk . He's

0:59

authored six best-selling

1:01

books , including Wired for Love , and

1:04

trained thousands of therapists

1:06

around the world

1:08

. Welcome , D r . Tatkin .

1:11

Thank you , Gretta , thanks for having me .

1:13

It's my absolute pleasure . I'm so

1:15

happy you're here . And

1:17

before I dive into everything

1:19

, I'd like to provide a

1:22

reminder to all listeners maybe there's

1:24

some new listeners today that

1:26

the definition of ghosting

1:28

that I use for this podcast comes

1:31

from Oxford Languages and

1:33

it is the practice of ending a personal

1:36

relationship with somebody by

1:38

suddenly and without explanation

1:40

withdrawing from all communication

1:42

. So I just want everyone

1:44

to note that this is different than leaving an abusive

1:47

situation without

1:49

a goodbye that's self-protection

1:51

. It's also different than disappearing

1:54

after a boundary has been violated

1:56

that's self-respect . So

1:58

, D dr . Tatkin , can

2:01

you please tell listeners about the

2:03

second edition of your bestselling relationship

2:06

book , Wired for Love , how

2:08

understanding your partner's brain and

2:10

attachment style can help you diffuse

2:13

conflict and build a secure

2:15

relationship .

2:17

Sure , that was the

2:19

second book that came out . Love

2:21

and War came out first , and

2:23

it's one of the most popular ones , but

2:26

I wrote it in 2012

2:28

, and I've learned

2:30

a lot since then , and so it really

2:32

needed an update , an upgrade

2:34

, including what

2:37

we didn't do during that time . The

2:40

couple situation

2:43

was actually much more

2:45

heteronormative in

2:47

terms of the examples and

2:49

dyadic meaning two

2:51

person systems , so we've

2:54

since broadened our

2:56

thinking and how

2:59

to approach not just couples

3:02

, but throuples right and

3:04

and more people that are in

3:06

poly , you know , arrangements

3:09

with people in consensual

3:11

, non-monogamy , transgendered

3:14

and sort of also the

3:16

the all the other arrangements

3:19

that people have been making really

3:21

since the beginning of time , but

3:24

we're more aware of it today

3:26

, and so I

3:28

wanted to be much more inclusive

3:31

, so there is a chapter on that

3:33

. There's also some caveats on

3:35

some of the things that I did right in 2020

3:37

, 2012 , and then

3:40

also incorporating new

3:42

material . So , it

3:44

was a much needed upgrade .

3:47

I very much appreciate all of those upgrades

3:49

. So thank you for doing that . Thank

3:51

you , and I have to say I

3:54

was really blown away when I looked

3:56

at the cover and I saw endorsements

3:58

from Gwyneth Paltrow and Alanis

4:01

Morissette , so that's amazing .

4:04

They're terrific . These are two impressive

4:06

people in the world , both

4:09

of them highly intelligent . Highly

4:12

, I mean wonderful people

4:14

actually .

4:15

I would love to have them on my podcast

4:19

. So if a listener

4:21

suspects that they're being

4:23

ghosted in a long-term

4:25

relationship , so maybe

4:28

their significant other hasn't

4:30

called or texted them

4:32

back like they normally would , what

4:35

steps can they take to communicate

4:37

or repair ? And caveat

4:40

I just want to assume that all the text messages

4:43

have read receipts . Like

4:45

there's no emergency

4:48

that prevents them from replying .

4:54

Right , you know we were talking

4:56

before we started here

4:58

a little bit about attachment . And

5:00

there is there is something

5:03

that happens with certain people

5:05

even before this trend came about

5:07

People in we

5:10

call it the distancing group , people

5:12

who are organized more towards distancing

5:14

, which is something that

5:17

an adaptation , that

5:19

happens around postnatal

5:21

, you know , the postnatal period

5:23

. So we learn very early in infancy

5:25

the culture that we're born

5:28

into and how to operate and what's

5:30

allowed , what's not allowed . You

5:32

know , in distancing cultures neediness

5:36

is not allowed . It's , you know

5:38

, we don't do neediness and independence

5:41

, autonomy is the name of the game , and

5:43

that often has a terrible price

5:45

on an infant and child and adult

5:48

. And that

5:51

terrible price is actually

5:53

interpersonal and can

5:55

lead to people who are

5:57

more inclined to do ghosting

5:59

than the average bear , than

6:10

the average bear . And so I just wanted to say that there's a common issue many times

6:12

in people in the distancing group , where they have this fantasy

6:14

of omnipresence and

6:16

time collapses because they often

6:19

manage themselves in

6:22

a way that we call auto-regulatory , meaning

6:24

they self-soothe and self-excite

6:27

, stimulate

6:30

without the need of a person , because

6:32

people are just a little bit too stressful

6:34

and so they're more

6:37

inclined to even

6:39

forget that they've dropped

6:42

a partner , even forget , and

6:49

I've seen people do that who have been together for a

6:51

while , and then they

6:53

just are focused , highly

6:55

focused , for weeks , months

6:58

, and then suddenly they wake up

7:00

as if out of a fugue and go you

7:02

know what have I done ? And they'll rush

7:04

back only to find that the

7:07

other person was ghosted by them and

7:11

doesn't want to

7:13

resume the relationship and maybe even

7:15

have moved on , and so

7:17

this is a phenomenon that doesn't

7:20

happen with other groups , because

7:23

they're more aware of relationship

7:25

and less aware of relationship

7:30

and less focused on the self and

7:32

self-needs and they

7:35

experience less interpersonal stress than

7:38

these distancing folk . So

7:40

there is that there's an entire group of

7:42

people that are more inclined to do this

7:44

because of their

7:46

distancing and because of their ability

7:49

to forget that

7:51

they're not contacting , they think their partner

7:53

is always around in their head and

7:55

they're not going to go anywhere . But

7:57

they do and

7:59

it comes as a shock to them . So there is

8:02

that group .

8:03

How big of the population

8:05

is the distancing group Like ? Is this a

8:07

large portion of the population or ?

8:09

very teeny Big part of the Western world

8:11

. Big part of the Western

8:13

world , you know . We

8:15

see this in babies in

8:18

the beginning , when they're just being

8:20

mobile away from the caregiver

8:23

. They're crawling first and they love

8:25

being able to crawl away from the caregiver

8:27

and that's called practicing

8:29

. That's a separation

8:31

, you

8:33

know expression , right To move

8:36

away and crawl away

8:38

and explore the non-caregiver

8:41

world . And they have

8:43

, they're able to do this , uh

8:46

, because they have a fantasy

8:48

of omnipresence . Um , the caregiver

8:50

is always there , they don't need to

8:53

think , so they're calmed and they're soothed

8:55

by this idea that they're

8:57

. They're not , uh , far

8:59

away until they look

9:02

back . And then they , you

9:04

know , back on their

9:06

crawling back to the caregiver . Or

9:08

when they are able to stand

9:10

and walk , they do this famously Now

9:13

it's like getting a set of wheels and a

9:15

car and now they're able to

9:17

walk away from

9:20

their caregivers and kind

9:22

of meet other toddlers at the water

9:24

cooler . But

9:27

this matter of omnipresence is a fantasy

9:29

that is as

9:31

yet unaware that they

9:33

could lose the relationship , that they could

9:35

lose that secure base

9:38

by being visually

9:40

out of sight . And so

9:42

that gives way to another stage

9:45

where they are

9:47

more tied to the caregiver

9:49

and they bring the environment back

9:51

to the caregiver . In other words , they start sharing

9:53

their explorations with

9:56

the caregiver as a way to

9:58

solve that problem right

10:00

and then they begin to worry about

10:02

the status of the relationship . So

10:05

a lot of people in the distancing group aren't

10:07

at that place . They're much

10:09

more interested in the consolidation of

10:12

themselves or the self and

10:14

their independence and autonomy , which actually

10:16

isn't so much

10:18

for the distancing people , autonomy

10:21

or distancing , it's actually a forced

10:24

kind of independence . They

10:26

don't really have the choice of clinging

10:28

and of depending

10:30

, because the caregivers are oriented towards

10:33

, you know , run

10:35

along now and they

10:38

like their children to be independent

10:40

in their rooms , quiet and not a problem

10:42

. That does sound terrible when

10:44

I say that , but it's not meant

10:46

to be . Again

10:48

, it's a cultural thing because the parents

10:50

are more focused on

10:53

the self as well than

10:55

relationships . So this is it's

10:57

not heritable per se , but

10:59

it is part

11:02

of nature repeating itself and

11:04

so , generation by generation , this

11:06

kind of parenting , this kind

11:08

of environment , this social environment repeats

11:11

and that's how we get , you know

11:13

, distancing , and then the culture , like

11:15

our culture , you know , be independent

11:18

, be autonomous , don't tread on me , I'm

11:20

a self-made person . All of those

11:23

messages suggest

11:25

that we have cultural support for

11:27

this idea that we don't , shouldn't

11:29

, depend on others , right ? And

11:32

then , you know , western

11:34

Europe is this way , and

11:36

in a lot of Asia

11:39

is this way , japan especially

11:42

so . It is nature

11:44

, is nature . It's not evil , it's not good

11:46

or bad , right or wrong . It is , but

11:49

it does pose a problem . Um

11:51

, to interpersonal relationships

11:53

, intimacy , you know , fidelity

11:55

, and , uh , you know this idea

11:57

of commitment , right . And

12:01

so I just wanted to say that , because it's you

12:03

know , ghosting is being aided

12:05

by technology . Technology has made

12:08

it possible for people to do

12:10

this without any feeling

12:13

of they're doing something they shouldn't do

12:15

. Right , because it's all

12:17

anonymous . It's very easy to

12:19

cut somebody off because , after all

12:22

, you

12:24

don't really know them that well right

12:26

and then it becomes a

12:28

friend . But it's horrible . I'm

12:31

the receiving of it is

12:33

horrible . There's , there's

12:35

nothing worse . And the reason it's so bad

12:37

is because we're

12:40

uh , we're pack animals , we're herd

12:42

animals . We depend on interpersonal

12:44

relationships , on talking . We

12:46

depend on others . That's

12:48

our nature and it's usually

12:51

trained out of us . But we're more

12:54

clingy by nature

12:56

as a species than distancing because

13:00

of our dependency needs . Because

13:03

of our dependency needs . So you

13:05

could say that when we are abandoned

13:07

like that , it hits an extremely

13:10

primitive , primal survival

13:12

instinct that goes all the way back

13:14

to infancy . That

13:17

is like death and

13:20

that's why it's so utterly painful and

13:22

feels so cruel . Because

13:25

it's not just painful and feels so cruel because

13:27

it's not just you know something like you know losing your

13:29

wallet or not

13:32

seeing your cat for days . This

13:35

is far more primal

13:37

because we're

13:39

, you know , we're meant to bond

13:41

to others . That's nature's

13:43

glue attachment . Meant

13:49

to bond to others , that's nature's glue attachment . And when that breaks , um , there's

13:51

a kind of devastation and on some level inside , that is , like

13:53

I said , goes all the way back to infancy

13:55

yeah , wow

13:58

, those are powerful points

14:00

and there's one more

14:03

factor .

14:03

Should .

14:04

I just load you up .

14:05

Yes , do it .

14:08

Our brains have what's called a negativity

14:10

bias . We're born

14:12

with a tilt towards negativity

14:15

and the reason is survival

14:17

, that we have to be aware of things that

14:19

would hurt us . So we have

14:21

minds that create things , make things

14:23

up constantly , constantly making things

14:25

up . And when we don't

14:28

have data , if you don't say

14:30

anything to me , my mind fills in the blanks

14:32

. So if you're really quiet

14:34

and really still , while you're still and I'm

14:36

talking to you , my mind

14:38

is actively , at least subcortically

14:40

, filling in blanks and

14:43

guessing what

14:46

you're doing . In the absence

14:48

of knowing what you're doing , I'm

14:50

going to think often of the worst possible

14:52

possibilities

14:56

. According to my personal narrative , my life

14:58

, the way I've lived my life and my memories

15:00

and that's the other

15:02

part . The absence of someone , without

15:04

explanation , causes

15:06

our mind to fill it in and

15:09

we'll be tortured with stuff

15:11

that we are insecure about , stuff that

15:13

we remember , that have

15:15

worried us about relationship

15:18

from the very beginning . So what did I

15:20

do ? Did I say

15:22

something ? Was it something , you know ? And

15:25

our mind is awash with

15:27

all of these thoughts and self-talk

15:29

about what happened

15:32

. It's got to be something terrible . We

15:34

don't think that the person was run over , we think that

15:36

we messed up and

15:38

that's , I think , the

15:40

cruel part is , in

15:43

the absence of knowing something , the

15:45

mind is forced to make stuff

15:47

up and it's not going to be positive

15:49

. The mind isn't Disneyland , and

15:52

that's again necessary for survival

15:55

. So that's why it's

15:57

a problem . Even with shy people . We project

16:00

onto them , we think , oh , maybe they don't like us

16:02

or they're too good good for us , or they're

16:04

arrogant or whatever . No , they're just shy . But

16:07

because we're not getting any signals from

16:09

them , we imagine

16:12

the worst . Right , if they just wore a

16:14

t-shirt or a hat that said , hey , I'm

16:16

nice , I'm just shy , we wouldn't

16:18

do it right , we'd go up to them seriously

16:20

. But who , who knows that

16:22

? So so these these non-communicative

16:26

periods , um , especially

16:28

today , when we're so used to

16:30

getting responses right away , we

16:32

don't get a response and and a certain

16:34

timing , and then we start to go . What happened was

16:37

when ? What's going on ? We start

16:39

to perseverate over this , and

16:41

that's also a sign of our times that it

16:44

used to be . You know , you didn't get a response

16:46

from someone , because it took days , weeks for a horse

16:48

to get the message to you , and

16:51

then , and then people would call . There would be

16:53

no answering machine . You wouldn't expect anything

16:55

else . And then , with the start of the answering

16:57

machine . That's when this all began .

16:59

Got it Wow . This

17:04

episode is sponsored by BetterHelp

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17:10

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. The direct link is also in my

18:22

show notes . So

18:26

if a listener thinks that

18:28

they're being ghosted by

18:30

somebody they're in a long-term

18:32

relationship with what

18:35

could they do ? What would you suggest

18:38

is the protocol here ?

18:41

The fault lies in the person who

18:44

is ghosting . Right , the fault lies

18:46

, and that is just the fact

18:48

. You know , there's

18:50

no reason why somebody would do

18:52

that unless they

18:54

feel that they can without

18:57

consequence . And so

18:59

that's just the way it is

19:01

. And unfortunately it renders the ghosted

19:03

person completely and utterly helpless

19:06

. Completely and utterly helpless

19:08

. Which is why , when I read

19:10

some of your material , why

19:12

I wouldn't recommend that

19:15

there's any rapprochement with that person . There

19:19

would be little reason for that

19:22

, because that ranks

19:24

as a major betrayal . Now , that doesn't mean

19:26

you never would do that , because only

19:29

you know the quality of your relationship

19:31

and whether it's worthwhile rekindling

19:33

. But to go back to that relationship

19:36

without firm terms and conditions

19:38

that are

19:40

measurable would be nuts

19:42

, because if

19:45

someone does that once , they're more likely

19:47

not to do it again . So this

19:50

is like lying or cheating . These

19:53

are betrayals . It's

19:55

spelled as treason and you

19:57

know we're supposed to . You

20:00

know , if somebody bells on us in the

20:02

middle of a gunfight and we're pleased , we

20:04

want another partner , we're

20:07

not safe , right , that's a deal

20:09

breaker . Can't , can't happen

20:11

, right , yeah , and so I

20:13

think of it as on the same order that that

20:16

can't happen . You just ruled yourself out

20:18

as a safe person okay

20:22

, so you're talking about .

20:23

Terms and conditions need

20:25

to be established in order to

20:27

go back to this ghost

20:29

. For

20:32

the person listening who really

20:35

wants desperate to get this ghost

20:38

back . What

20:40

are the steps to

20:42

rebuilding ?

20:45

Well , here's the problem . We

20:49

have an attachment system that nature

20:52

has created , like I said , nature's glue

20:54

that holds us together

20:56

for very good reasons . To raise a

20:58

child for at least four years out

21:01

in the wild makes us stick together

21:03

, to be together in interdependent

21:05

groups or tribes or

21:08

any union where

21:10

we need safety and security

21:12

or we need to profit , right

21:14

. But we organize in groups

21:16

. So the

21:18

idea of

21:20

someone bailing

21:23

and leaving , like I said

21:25

, tends to activate

21:28

that negativity bias in the mind , and

21:31

I don't care who the person is

21:33

. We feel less than and

21:35

this goes back to childhood . I remember

21:38

I was raised by

21:40

kind of a nanny . She was a housekeeper

21:43

, but I was the youngest in my family and

21:45

so she really handled

21:47

most of the parenting functions , including

21:50

putting me to bed at night and waking me up and

21:52

birthday mornings and even going

21:54

on vacations with us . And

21:56

so when she , when I was

21:58

about seven or eight , when she was fired

22:00

, I

22:03

woke up one morning I sensed

22:05

something was wrong and I saw her across

22:08

the street in her

22:10

pink sweater and remember it like

22:12

was yesterday and her whites with her luggage

22:14

, and I knew she wasn't coming back

22:16

. And

22:20

so that took a toll on

22:22

me and for years

22:24

and years I kept thinking this was

22:26

my fault , that when

22:28

I had heard that she worked

22:31

in our neighborhood , she found

22:33

work with another family , with other

22:35

young children I

22:38

felt like I was not good

22:40

enough and that I had to prove

22:42

myself whenever I visited her

22:44

. And that is

22:46

what happens to most

22:49

of us . When we don't

22:51

have control of a separation

22:54

, when we don't have control of

22:56

a dissolving of a relationship

22:58

, if the other person is holding

23:00

the cards right

23:03

and they pull the trigger , we

23:05

end up feeling like this , even

23:08

if we didn't necessarily want

23:11

to be in that relationship . So it's

23:13

not just the longing

23:16

for somebody , it is . They

23:19

took something . They took

23:21

something my self-esteem

23:23

, my sense of being good enough

23:25

, my sense of right and

23:27

I want it back of

23:30

being good enough , my sense of right , and I want it back . And so that's one motivation that

23:33

people will want desperately to get back

23:35

to their partner . Right , you stole something

23:37

from me and I need to recover

23:39

that . I need to recoup that . It

23:41

really isn't about love . That's

23:43

what . That's the thing here . We confuse

23:45

this for love . It isn't . It's about safety

23:48

and security . That's it . The

23:50

same thing with attachment bonding right

23:53

. We confuse it with love when it's actually

23:55

survival , and those

23:58

are two very different things . The survival instinct

24:00

is something for our cerebral

24:03

cortex , notably our prefrontal

24:05

cortex , to override and

24:07

to tell ourselves no , I'm not

24:09

going to die . This is not my mother leaving

24:11

me in a hole or sending me up the

24:13

Nile River in a basket . This

24:16

is an adult who actually

24:19

betrayed me , who actually did

24:21

something , or just

24:23

left , decided to leave , right . I'm

24:25

stuck with that feeling like

24:28

an infant that will never , ever

24:30

, ever understand why right

24:32

, that's what we go , why . And then we talk

24:35

to our friends to death , right until

24:37

they don't want to talk anymore , and and

24:39

every now and then we go yeah , that's right

24:41

, that's right , that wasn't good for me . Then you

24:43

know it was this thing and this thing , this thing , and then

24:45

wait for it , uh , you know 20

24:47

minutes . But why ? And

24:50

the reason of that ? But why is that ? There's , I

24:52

think , a part of us that will

24:54

never understand why someone who loved

24:56

us doesn't , why somebody who

24:58

was with us and left us and

25:01

even death is easier to

25:03

deal with because we know they're dead

25:06

but here someone still is

25:08

on the planet , they still

25:10

exist . How does that make sense

25:12

? How could they leave me , how could they stop

25:14

loving me , how could they stop being with

25:16

me ? That doesn't compute

25:19

to this part of us , this infant

25:21

part , and so we confuse it

25:23

with love and that's a problem , because

25:26

that's not good . That's a problem because that's not

25:29

good . That's not good for our lives

25:31

, because we should be living our lives

25:33

based on what is right

25:35

and what is best , not

25:37

what is convenient , and

25:40

we feel that we've lost something

25:42

. We want to get it back . We won't get it back

25:44

. We

25:49

want to feel that we're loved again . That isn't love

25:51

, right , it isn't . The damage

25:53

has been done . This person , actually

25:55

, if we think about it , has shown themselves

25:58

inappropriate for us

26:00

, unsafe for us , unworthy

26:02

for the job of partnership

26:04

. It is a serious

26:06

matter , right . We

26:08

will group together , unionize , fundamentally

26:12

to stay alive . It's for survival

26:14

, right ? Well , the person just violated

26:16

that first rule . We

26:18

protect each other at all times . The

26:21

reason we're unionizing , at the very

26:23

least , is to survive . We don't

26:25

join a business to get killed

26:28

or robbed . Right is

26:31

to survive . We don't join a business to get killed or robbed right . We join it because we'll

26:33

be safe and secure and we'll profit and we'll do something good that we want to do

26:35

with this group . So

26:39

I would say that get

26:41

therapy . This is a great

26:43

time to explore yourself and

26:45

understand yourself , not this person

26:47

, because the therapist , who can't see

26:49

that person , can only , you

26:51

know , use their imagination . That's not

26:53

great . So it's

26:56

an internal thing , right ? Someone

26:58

leaves you . You have no control over

27:01

it . It's like you know a tree falling on your

27:03

house and

27:05

you have to mourn the

27:08

loss . You have to grieve the

27:10

loss , otherwise it will change

27:12

you and make the next relationship

27:15

complicated . It'll

27:19

be complicated by your feeling

27:21

of loss and injustice and

27:24

you may try to get your justice

27:26

out with that new person who's innocent . So

27:28

we grieve losses , otherwise

27:31

we remain angry , because

27:34

the anger is an expression

27:36

of say it ain't so . I refuse to accept

27:39

this . I , you know , you owe me . I

27:41

again I've been robbed . So I

27:44

think it's important for people to journal , to

27:47

join a group of other people who

27:49

perhaps have had this experience

27:51

, so you can get comfort and feel

27:53

that you're not alone . Take

27:55

long walks in nature

27:58

. This is one

28:00

thing that was given to me by one

28:02

of my patients . I tried

28:04

it when I was going through a tough

28:06

time . When I was going through a tough time , you go out in nature and

28:08

make sure you're not with an earshot of

28:11

people and you , you

28:13

stay there as long as you need to and you talk

28:16

to yourself out loud

28:18

. You talk , so you

28:20

have a conversation with that part of

28:22

you that feels abandoned

28:24

, feels worthless , that feels you

28:27

know what did I do and that wants

28:29

to pursue this right , which

28:31

is a disruption . You

28:33

cannot fix this . It's

28:37

done , right , it's done , and

28:40

the only person who could fix it is the person

28:42

who did it , and

28:44

they have a lot of explaining to do and they

28:46

have a lot of proving to do . If

28:49

you're a person of principle and

28:51

you want a good life , you're

28:53

going to have to talk to yourself , that part

28:55

of you that wants them back , that feels

28:58

so abandoned and

29:00

so devastated

29:02

and hurt . You're going to have

29:04

to , like , talk to that part of yourself

29:06

over and over and over

29:09

and over again , because it wants

29:11

to do something that is

29:13

penny wise and pound foolish . It'll

29:15

make you feel better for the moment if you succeed

29:17

, but not

29:20

at all assuring a good future , because

29:24

somebody broke a social contract with you

29:26

and agreements

29:28

in this life with other

29:30

human primates is all we have

29:32

. We don't have anything else . You

29:35

agree , based on

29:37

principle , what you're going

29:39

to do , what we're going to do whether

29:41

you feel like it or not , because feelings

29:44

are the problem here Makes

29:46

us do all sorts of terrible things to

29:48

our relationships . So

29:50

we have to have agreements . We're

29:52

going to stick by each other . Yes , do you want that

29:54

? We're going to make our relationship the

29:56

most important priority

30:00

, because we can and because

30:02

the world won't , and because we

30:05

do that because everyone and everything

30:07

depends on us being in good shape and

30:09

happy . Otherwise everything

30:11

sucks . So let's do that

30:13

and let's not do this other

30:15

thing Agreed , agreed . And

30:19

people have to make those agreements so that

30:21

they know exactly that they're on the same

30:23

page . But

30:25

this thing about love and this

30:27

thing about bonding and attachment are

30:30

misleading . The

30:32

love that many times we feel is nature's

30:35

orders to procreate . We

30:38

found somebody who is biochemically

30:41

appropriate for us

30:43

, more likely than not to produce an

30:45

offspring , and

30:47

nature's not concerned about love . Nature's

30:50

not concerned about relationship

30:53

. We are , and so this

30:55

is about growing up . I think for

30:57

all parties , actually all

31:00

parties . You

31:02

know . This is about honor

31:05

. This is about character . This is about

31:07

who are you as a person . It's

31:10

not about love . It's about evidence

31:12

daily that this person is who

31:14

they say they are and will do what they agree to period

31:17

. Sorry

31:21

, that's the reality of it . Otherwise

31:23

, you're courting more danger and you're keeping

31:25

yourself young and you're

31:28

not taking care of yourself . Taking

31:31

care of yourself means that you

31:33

pick people who are reliable

31:35

and trustworthy . Otherwise

31:38

, you're not taking care of yourself right

31:40

, and this is a daily proof . This

31:42

is not something you can . You

31:44

know they have to disprove that they're reliable

31:47

, disprove that they're trustworthy , and once

31:49

that happens , they

31:52

may have to be fired .

31:55

I hear you Wow

31:58

yeah .

32:00

I know , I know I've been through

32:02

it . It happened to me once and it was before

32:05

. It was a trend and it was like , oh my God

32:07

, what happened to this person ? We were on the phone

32:09

, we were going to go to see a movie and this

32:11

person disappeared forever

32:14

. They're going to call me right back . We're going

32:16

to movie . Nothing over

32:18

Nothing . I don't know

32:20

if this person got hurt or anything like that . I'm

32:22

assuming , no , I'm

32:27

assuming that's what happened , and

32:30

it's an awful , awful feeling . I

32:33

don't care who you are . Well , maybe

32:35

who you are might

32:37

make it so that you're not so

32:40

sensitive to this , but

32:42

most of us , I think , would be .

32:44

Yeah , I

32:46

think it's normal to be extremely hurt when somebody basically

32:49

discards you . Yeah

32:51

, yeah , okay

32:54

. So I have a few questions about everything

32:56

you just said . First

32:59

, if somebody

33:02

is in a long-term relationship , there

33:04

might be children or pets involved

33:06

, so do you have any suggestions

33:09

for how to deal with that ?

33:13

So if there are kids involved , well , that's

33:15

a legal matter , right

33:17

? If somebody has taken the kids , is that what you mean ? Taking the kids ? Yeah , taking

33:19

the kids . Is that what you mean ? Taking the kids ?

33:21

Yeah . So I guess my question is

33:23

like

33:30

let's say , somebody is in a long-term relationship and the kids are now attached to this ghost . How

33:32

do you communicate with the children Like

33:34

, oh , this person left , how

33:37

do you explain it as a

33:39

parent ? That

33:42

also the legal situation as a whole

33:44

.

33:44

other thing I don't think we need to get into that

33:46

today , but the

33:51

answer is complicated because it really depends

33:53

on the age of the children , right

33:55

, um , in terms of brain development

33:57

, uh , it's maybe inappropriate

33:59

to explain , uh , or it may be

34:01

more appropriate to make something up that

34:04

helps children to sleep at night

34:07

. But it depends on their age

34:09

. Once children are getting to

34:11

be around seven , eight , they're

34:14

able to think a different way than children are

34:16

at four and five . Those children

34:19

are more magical , and

34:21

a seven , eight-year-old really is beginning

34:23

to have a sense of impermanence

34:25

and permanence , but impermanence

34:28

and that people can leave and people can die

34:30

. But

34:32

they're still at a tender age where

34:35

they don't get a lot of things still . Then

34:38

you go to preteen , 10 , 11

34:40

, 12 . And

34:51

there I think that that is one of the most difficult ages to lose a caregiver

34:53

, right , you

34:55

know , up to 14, . Actually , some

34:58

kids never get over that in

35:00

life , because that's a very

35:02

important age of , again , separation

35:04

, individuation , where the child is becoming

35:07

more influenced by peer groups and

35:10

is pushing parents away while

35:12

at the same time want to be just like them , and

35:15

so imagine a parent in the

35:17

middle of that , going away

35:19

. There are all sorts

35:21

of internal problems on how

35:24

that's interpreted inside . So that has

35:26

to be accounted for , and the older someone

35:29

gets , the better it is for them

35:31

to understand what

35:33

has happened . So it really depends , and

35:36

if you're going to talk to your kids about anything like

35:38

this , you let them lead , you

35:41

don't say more than you

35:43

need to say , because you

35:45

want them on an as needed basis

35:48

, a need to know basis for them

35:50

to lead , so you're careful not to give them

35:52

too much information , information they don't know what

35:54

to do with , right , because the parents'

35:57

feelings , the parents' anxiety or guilt

35:59

or whatever . So there's

36:01

that . But

36:03

abandonment of a family , abandonment

36:06

of children again another serious matter

36:08

, another very serious matter

36:10

. And as bad as it feels

36:12

, it

36:16

is something that has to be thought about

36:18

in terms of reunion , because out

36:30

, in terms of reunion , because , um , that's , that's a problem , uh , um and uh

36:32

, and so I , I , I think you know the rest of it . Taking children is criminal , I mean , it

36:35

can be . It often is if it's across state lines

36:37

, without permissions . So we're talking now

36:39

about another level . Yeah

36:42

, and taking pets , now

36:44

you go gunning for them , took my

36:46

dog .

36:46

Yeah , I'm kidding .

36:49

But yeah , all of that can happen

36:51

because people , we're animals , folks

36:53

, we forget . We

36:57

think that we're just nice people . Well

37:00

, we are nice when we're happy . We

37:02

are nice when we feel good . Some of us make us feel bad and we're just nice people . Well , we are nice when we're happy . We are nice when we feel good . Some

37:05

of us make us feel bad and

37:07

we're not so nice . We do

37:09

what we want and what we want is

37:12

for us only , and we may not

37:14

care about the effect it

37:16

has on other people . That's species

37:19

wide . That's not simply just

37:21

personality . That is species-wide . It's

37:23

always been that way . So

37:25

that's why you plan

37:27

. When you are with somebody , the

37:29

two of you plan for your devils , not your angels

37:32

, because devils , we are under the wrong

37:34

conditions and

37:37

that's called a social contract . Let's

37:40

do this and never do that . But

37:42

couples don't do that . Businesses

37:45

do rock and roll bands do , dance

37:47

troops do cop car partners do

37:49

, people in the military do . Almost

37:52

all other unions have social

37:55

contracts because they understand people

37:57

are wild animals . We're primates

37:59

, we're apes , and that

38:02

can be proven at any given time

38:04

when we're at our worst . So

38:07

this is a naivety problem . This

38:09

is a problem of not understanding how

38:11

the human condition operates , that

38:15

we're selfish and

38:17

self-centered , moody , fickle , aggressive

38:20

, aggressive , warlike creatures that

38:22

are easily influenced by outside forces

38:24

and , um , and xenophobic

38:27

we otherize very easily . So

38:29

we're not , we're not great , you

38:32

know , across the board , and

38:34

, um , and it's not a gender thing , it's not

38:36

a sex thing , it's not a cultural thing , it's not an age

38:38

thing . Well , it is an age

38:40

thing because , uh , you know , kids that are

38:42

, you know , two years old , three years old , are

38:45

, are pure primates in the

38:47

sense that , uh , they're not

38:49

being reined in by social norms

38:51

, right , um , you don't , you don't

38:53

want to give them an uzi and let them rule the

38:55

world because it's scorched earth . So

38:57

, um , so so , but

39:00

this , there's a reality about us

39:02

, and only in couples are

39:04

we stupid , um , where

39:07

we have our personal fantasies

39:09

and expectations and entitlements

39:11

from childhood and we don't align

39:14

them with this other person who's a complete stranger

39:16

. We just assume they're on

39:18

the same page and they're not . And

39:20

, uh , it's a big mistake , right

39:22

, we're sort of in la-la land

39:25

and we're not realistic . We

39:27

don't organize , we don't create

39:29

, co-create a structure . You

39:31

and I , if we started a relationship , it would be

39:34

something that we made up , because it doesn't

39:36

exist , right , it's a creation . We're

39:38

the creators . Truly , we

39:40

invented it , and if

39:42

we invented it , we're responsible for

39:45

the outcome and how we feel , because it's on us to

39:47

do that . That's the reality . Otherwise

39:49

, we're imagining we're in some other

39:51

system , like a family , which

39:54

we're not . So this is

39:56

a problem for people who do what I

39:58

do work with couples as

40:00

a specialty . It's

40:03

the only union that does not think

40:05

of itself as having to set up

40:07

shop , having to organize

40:09

, having to come up with the rules of

40:12

how we're going to protect each other

40:14

from each other . Doesn't do it

40:16

until too late .

40:18

Right , right . So then , if somebody

40:21

is in a relationship

40:23

and they're concerned

40:25

that they might be ghosted in the future

40:27

, what can they do Exactly

40:30

, like what are

40:32

helpful things that they could do

40:34

with their partner to ?

40:36

I know it's impossible to prevent ghosting

40:39

, but to try to prevent ghosting from happening

40:41

ghosting

40:44

, but to try to prevent ghosting from happening when you're vetting a partner , I don't care

40:47

how or where . This is the way it

40:49

must be done . That

40:51

you're Sherlocking you start

40:54

to learn through . The dating

40:56

process is a learning process of learning

40:58

how to read people , learning how to pick up cues

41:00

, learning how to read people , learning how

41:02

to pick up cues , learning how to look in places that people normally

41:05

don't to see . Who am

41:07

I dealing with , really ? Because in

41:09

the beginning , everyone is putting

41:11

their best foot forward . Nobody is letting

41:14

you know exactly

41:16

who they are , because you'd run , and

41:20

so you have to really

41:22

pay attention , not to look

41:24

like you know they're on trial , but

41:26

friendly but curious and

41:29

noticing everything how

41:31

they treat people around

41:33

them when you're with them , how they act

41:35

when you bring them to friends and families . Have

41:38

always your friends and family vet

41:40

. These people Ask them ahead of time . When

41:43

I bring this person around , I want you to tell

41:45

me the truth about how

41:47

I appear with them . Do I seem myself

41:50

? Do

41:52

you like the me that is with this

41:55

person ? Do you like them

41:57

? What

41:59

do you think about them ? Right ? And you

42:01

ask people that are old and young

42:03

, right ? Um , male

42:05

and female , because they'll have different

42:08

takes on this person . This is

42:10

how it's been done since the beginning

42:12

. The tribe , uh , the clan , uh

42:14

, everybody uh decides

42:16

whether this person will fit into the culture

42:19

, right . So they're

42:21

kind of mini yous , except

42:23

they're not you . And the reason you're doing that is

42:25

because your own drugs . When you first meet

42:27

somebody , you are not

42:30

thinking correctly . Nobody is uh

42:32

. Your mind is altered

42:34

by , by . You know nature's love

42:37

potion and you are more likely

42:39

than not to overlook things and

42:42

uh and and to be driven by

42:44

that need , like I said , to mate

42:47

. But you

42:49

use your social network as

42:52

a vetting process and

42:54

you listen to what they have to say and

42:57

you take time , you don't jump into

42:59

things , you assume you

43:01

don't know this person , you won't know

43:03

them at all for a year at least , and

43:06

then you don't really know them for several years

43:08

after that . So so

43:11

this is again the don't be naive part

43:13

. Um that

43:15

, yes , it is compelling . Yes , we do want a

43:17

russian . Yes , we feel like we found the one . Yes

43:19

, I feel like like I'm on the top

43:22

of the world . Of course , but

43:24

that doesn't tell me anything about

43:26

what would this person be like when

43:29

they're angry , when they're afraid

43:31

, will they bolt ? Will they

43:33

do this ? Do that Right

43:36

? I need to really do

43:38

my investigating

43:40

without coming off as obnoxious

43:43

. There are ways to find

43:45

things out so that you

43:47

begin to look

43:50

for the perfect relationship , not

43:52

the perfect person . What's the

43:54

perfect relationship you want ? You

43:56

make a mistake if you look for the perfect person because there

43:59

isn't . So what you want

44:01

is somebody who wants what you want . Do

44:04

you want a relationship where the relationship comes first ? Check

44:07

. Do you want a person who will tell you everything and

44:09

both you believe in full transparency , because

44:11

the alternative is bad ? Yes

44:13

, check . Do you want somebody who will have your

44:15

back and you'll have their back at all times , no

44:17

matter what ? Even if I don't like you , I'm

44:20

still having your back and that's what we do . Check

44:28

. Do you want somebody who will play this game with you and go through life shaping and reshaping

44:30

this thing called your relationship ? So the two of you are absolutely committed to each

44:32

other's safety and security , committed

44:35

to each other's absolute sense of happiness

44:37

and well-being . You can do that by agreement

44:39

. So look for the

44:41

relationship that you must have

44:43

, not the person , because

44:46

the person is either on board with

44:48

you or isn't . They may be good

44:50

looking and sexy and whatever

44:52

. There may be a fire cell that makes you want to do

44:54

it right away because you want to have a baby . All sorts

44:56

of pressures that make you do the wrong thing . But

44:59

you are vetting somebody for the long

45:01

road a partner in crime , the

45:04

most powerful partner next to you

45:06

, and you're going to rule the

45:08

world . You're going to change everything . You're going

45:10

to protect each other at all times . You're

45:14

the insiders , everyone else is the outsiders

45:16

. You're in charge , the two

45:18

of you . If that's what you want

45:20

, accept nothing else .

45:22

Got it .

45:27

Yeah , thank you for that .

45:32

Also talking

45:34

to you . Yes , exactly Right , right . Are

45:39

you struggling after being ghosted ? If so , you're not alone . In the Take

45:41

your Power Back W orkshop , C coach Estee K . and I guide you through practical ways

45:43

to heal , learn why ghosting isn't about you

45:45

, how to prioritize self-care and

45:47

rebuild stability . This

45:50

video workshop is under an hour

45:52

so you can pause , reflect

45:54

and come back to any portion whenever

45:56

you need it . Visit

46:03

copingwithghosting . com or click the link in the show notes and take your power back today

46:06

. Okay , so what would

46:08

a conversation look like ? If

46:10

so , I've been ghosted . So

46:13

let's say , I'm starting to date somebody

46:15

new . This is a hypothetical situation

46:17

. I'm dating somebody and

46:20

I'm concerned that they might ghost

46:22

me just because of my history of

46:24

being on the ghosted merry-go-round

46:26

, if you will . So if I wanted

46:29

to say you know , I've

46:32

been ghosted in the past , I just

46:34

want open communication like

46:36

is there a specific way

46:38

of communicating this without seeming

46:40

too needy or insecure

46:43

?

46:46

You know I'm making this up because

46:48

I didn't think about this before . You

46:50

know I'm making this up because I didn't think about this

46:53

before . But if you're creating a friendship

46:55

with this person , you're getting to know them . Right ? You're

46:57

chatting , you're talking . Why

47:02

not bring up the phenomena of ghosting ? Have you ever gone through that before

47:04

? Yeah

47:06

, boy , that you know I have . It's

47:09

really really painful and you both can just talk about it , like

47:11

you talk about , you know , uh , global warming

47:13

or politics

47:15

, right , it's . I'm not talking about you , I'm

47:17

talking about this , right , you know , and

47:19

you know it's . It's really going

47:22

around and it really is horrible . You

47:24

know , what do you think ? Uh ? has that ever

47:26

happened to you . Oh

47:33

, no , no , oh no , no , no , never happened . Wow , that , no , that's terrible . Um , I think you'd

47:35

probably like to hear that , yeah , I have . And boy , that

47:37

was , that was awful . That

47:40

makes it could make you feel , um

47:43

, a smidge , uh , safer

47:45

by hearing that . Oh , tell me about it

47:47

. What , what happened ? Um , so

47:49

you want somebody who suffered from that . Maybe

47:53

they'll think , right , yeah

47:55

, and then they know that you suffered

47:57

from this and this is this can be , you

48:00

know , uh , a topic that's

48:02

, like I said , like talking about

48:04

, uh , you know , ain't it awful about , you

48:06

know , certain things that are happening in the world

48:08

right now .

48:10

That might work . I like that a lot , because

48:12

if they say , oh yeah , I ghost people all

48:14

the time , you know , that's the biggest red flag ever

48:17

. Bye .

48:19

If that person says yeah , I ghost people all the time

48:21

, that's

48:24

the person you want to interview , Because not

48:26

only that they do that , but that they told you they

48:28

do that .

48:29

Right , right .

48:31

Get to know the person , so you want to

48:34

investigate that person so you can identify them

48:36

next time . Again

48:39

, dating is not a lost effort

48:42

, it's not a waste of time if

48:45

you're using it right . Dating is

48:47

a way , if you're really thinking about

48:49

it , to improve your people skills

48:51

, to improve your

48:53

skills at reading people , even

48:56

if it's just one time , even if it's a bore

48:59

. There is no such thing as someone

49:01

who's boring , there's just a boring interviewer . So

49:05

you know you're interviewing , you're interested

49:07

, right , and you're finding ways of getting

49:09

information without the person knowing

49:11

. You're getting that information that's

49:14

the trick here and you get better and

49:16

better at it . It's not a guarantee , but

49:19

it's probably certainly better than what you've been doing . And

49:21

even if it's a bad date , you've enjoyed

49:24

something . You learned about

49:26

this person right

49:29

, quickly , and you're doing it better and

49:31

better . That

49:34

is a great opportunity

49:36

to hone your skills . It

49:38

really is . And

49:42

so do that right

49:44

, because it's partly going

49:46

to be you vetting . And then

49:48

do always use your social

49:50

circle , please . It's a mistake

49:53

to leave them out . It's a mistake

49:55

to not make sure you see the

49:58

new person in their own social

50:00

environment , to see what it's like . If they

50:02

say they don't have one , I'd

50:04

walk away If they say

50:06

right

50:09

, you need to have other people vouch

50:11

for them by watching , by

50:14

seeing where they belong , right

50:16

, where they fit , and

50:18

these are all very smart things to

50:20

do , because you are vetting somebody to

50:22

be in the foxhole with you for your life

50:24

. That's no small thing , that's

50:27

not trivial , right

50:29

? What is this person going to do

50:31

when the when things get rough ? Do

50:33

they have a good moral compass ? Do

50:36

they , you know ? Will they speak honestly

50:38

about why their last relationships

50:40

didn't work out , or will they just

50:42

blame the partner ? Walk if they do

50:44

right . That's

50:46

not somebody you want to be with , um

50:49

, and so you're looking for someone

50:51

who who is , who wants

50:54

to be aware , is aware , wants

50:56

what you want and is demonstrating

50:58

it , and is is

51:00

honest about themselves , including the things

51:03

that are not swell .

51:05

Yeah , absolutely

51:07

, and choosing you're choosing

51:09

somebody who's choosing you .

51:13

Yes , and it is not what

51:15

you think it is . It's not about love

51:17

. Love is not enough , folks , it isn't

51:19

. It isn't . People

51:22

have done terrible things in the name of love , and

51:24

who knows what you mean by love anyway

51:26

? How do you know your partner thinks the same thing ? So

51:28

it isn't about that . It's about what we

51:30

do and what we don't do , based on what you

51:33

and , I believe , we decided is either

51:35

best or good or

51:37

the right thing to do . We decide that , we

51:41

decide that , not anybody else , and

51:43

we expect the other person , once these

51:45

are decided , to hold to it , whether

51:48

they love us or not , whether we love them or not

51:50

, because we're not safe

51:52

otherwise , because

51:54

there are times I'm not going to like you . What's

51:57

holding me back from treating you badly ? Nothing

52:01

, because we didn't come up with anything

52:04

Right , and so this is the way to

52:06

, I think , to think in

52:08

a world that is primitive

52:10

still and has always been , probably will always

52:13

be . It just has the

52:15

appearance of being civil , and

52:17

we're starting to see that unravel quite a bit

52:19

. So that's an illusion . You

52:23

want to create a civilization of two

52:25

people that's based on fairness

52:27

, justice , mutual sensitivity

52:30

, reliability , transparency

52:33

, protection first

52:35

and foremost . Otherwise you're

52:38

in for a bad time . One

52:41

more thing , Gretta , can I say something Because you stimulated

52:44

with the word ghost . Another

52:46

thing here there is a

52:48

common thing , and maybe many of

52:50

your audience has experienced

52:53

this you break up with someone

52:55

someone substantial or they

52:57

break up with you . There's

53:00

a time where you are going

53:02

to be haunted for quite a while

53:04

and the reason for

53:06

that goes back to infancy . For

53:14

that goes back to infancy when our primary attachment figure , which starts in the

53:16

very beginning , right , the person we depend on most , that person that

53:18

you fell in love with , that you were in a relationship

53:20

with committed relationship , is now

53:22

transferred to them . They are now your primary

53:24

attachment figure , the

53:27

adult type . Therefore

53:29

, when they vacate

53:31

that chair imagine it's an office

53:33

of primary right it

53:35

has a meaning unto itself , but

53:37

then the person sitting in it has an extra

53:39

meaning to it , like the office of presidency

53:42

has a meaning to it . And then there's the person

53:44

who sits in the chair right . So

53:47

that person who's sitting in that primary attachment

53:49

figure chair does

53:52

not vacate for a long time . The

53:54

person in your head . Therefore

53:58

, when you are left

54:00

abandoned or

54:02

the relationship breaks up , you're ghosted

54:04

. There

54:06

is a sense that

54:08

trying to replace this person

54:11

is offensive

54:13

. If you date too soon because

54:15

you feel like you're with an imposter

54:18

, you're with an imposter , they're

54:22

not them , the person who occupied

54:24

that chair , and so you'll

54:26

be distracted . You could be in front of the best

54:28

person that you could be with , but

54:30

you're turned off because they're

54:33

in the way , and somehow magical

54:35

way in your head , they're in the way of your partner

54:37

returning . This goes back

54:39

to infancy , when the

54:41

baby is with a stranger and the mother goes

54:43

out the door . The baby is able to

54:45

hold on to an image of the mother or

54:47

the father and explore the stranger

54:50

, but then gets angsty because

54:52

the stranger then becomes an imposter

54:54

, a villain for the real

54:56

deal , and becomes

54:58

very upset that

55:01

the caregiver isn't there and that the stranger

55:03

is interfering with the

55:05

return . So

55:08

that's a very fancy thinking , isn't it ? But

55:10

that's actually how we think in

55:12

adulthood . When we're left

55:15

, the real deal has

55:17

left and anybody

55:19

else who tries to come in is

55:21

is getting in the way of the return

55:23

of that other person , and

55:25

what happens is that affects everything

55:27

going forward till we

55:30

, that seat is vacated , and

55:32

that's grieving . That's grieving

55:35

. Friendship that is , you

55:37

know , taking care of yourself

55:39

during that time , but that's a very real thing

55:41

and people

55:44

who have gone through this may have wondered what that is , and

55:46

I think that's that's

55:49

pretty close to

55:51

what that is . It's an

55:53

. It's a . It's what we have done

55:55

since infancy with primaries .

55:58

Right , that's incredibly fascinating

56:00

.

56:00

Wow and to share that and

56:03

people in the distancing group don't experience

56:05

the same thing . They can replace those easily

56:08

because of the distancing

56:10

Right , they're

56:12

not as affected , but

56:14

most of us , yeah , we can't Once

56:17

our favorite dog dies . We just

56:19

don't run out and get another dog for

56:22

a while , right ?

56:24

Yeah , well

56:26

, wow , this has been so

56:28

informative and so just

56:30

brilliant . Thank you

56:32

for everything . How can

56:34

people read your book and

56:37

connect with you ? I guess

56:39

your book and all your other books

56:41

as well and if

56:45

people what I'm talking about right now

56:47

because Wired for Love .

57:14

Well , what I'm talking about right now , because Wired for Love , the earlier books , your

57:16

Brain on Love , which is audio only co-creating a structure that's real , that

57:18

not just going in because you love somebody and love will out , right . No

57:20

, you , you build something

57:23

that is entirely new , entirely

57:25

yours and that's really hammered

57:27

through . You know , talked

57:29

a lot about in each other's care . So people can reach me

57:31

at the pact

57:33

institutecom , that's the

57:36

,

57:40

and there they can find all

57:42

sorts of information ,

57:44

retreats , couples , retreats that my wife and I

57:46

do in workshops that we're doing constantly , doing

57:49

constantly online . And if you're

57:51

in the mental health field , we train people

57:54

in the mental health field how to do this

57:56

approach , and that's where this started

57:58

actually .

57:59

That's wonderful . Well , thank

58:02

you so much for joining me today

58:04

.

58:05

It's really my pleasure . I'm

58:07

so glad to be able to talk about this subject because

58:09

it is a terrible , terrible , really

58:12

kind of antisocial trend . It's very

58:14

, quite antisocial and

58:17

yet it's it's . Yet people are getting

58:19

away with it , thinking it's OK .

58:21

Yeah , it's

58:23

not OK and no

58:26

it's not okay . Yeah , and

58:29

listeners , I invite you

58:31

to follow @ C oping with G hosting on

58:33

social media , to

58:35

join the free and private C oping W ith G hosting

58:37

F facebook group and please

58:40

leave a rating for this show . Your

58:42

feedback will help other people find me . And

58:44

finally , when you're ghosted , you

58:46

have more time to connect with

58:48

yourself and people who have stellar communication

58:51

skills . You deserve

58:53

the best .