0:18

Welcome to Coping with Ghosting , the podcast

0:20

that provides hope , healing and

0:22

understanding for anyone who's been ghosted . That

0:24

provides hope , healing and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted . I'm your host

0:26

, Gretta , and this show's all about being ghosted

0:29

on repeat in love , dating

0:31

and romance . And today I'm

0:40

joined by Taryn Newton-Gill , a conscious dating and relationship coach and

0:42

attachment expert , as well as the CEO and founder of

0:44

Truer Love , where she helps

0:46

people attract the love of their life

0:48

using the psychological framework

0:51

of attachment theory . Taryn

0:53

also has a background as a professional

0:56

matchmaker and life coach and

0:58

is the host and producer of

1:00

the Truer Love Stories podcast

1:02

. Welcome to Coping with Ghosting .

1:05

Thank you Gretta; I'm so excited to

1:07

be here .

1:08

I'm grateful that you are on this

1:10

podcast today . I

1:12

think this is our Halloween

1:15

episode being ghosted on repeat . It

1:17

is a really unfortunate

1:21

, unsettling thing that happens

1:23

to people a lot

1:25

.

1:26

Yeah , I had

1:28

it happen a lot to me , so I definitely

1:31

relate and it's such an important

1:33

topic .

1:34

And I've been on the ghosting merry-go-round before

1:36

, so I really feel everyone's

1:38

pain . If you're listening to this and you're like

1:41

, oh my gosh , it just keeps on happening , okay , well

1:43

, we have some solutions for

1:45

you , and I just

1:47

want to let new listeners know that

1:49

in this podcast we're using the Oxford

1:52

dictionary's definition of ghosting

1:54

. It's the practice of ending a personal

1:56

relationship with someone by suddenly

1:59

and without explanation withdrawing

2:01

from all communication , and

2:03

this is different than if you're leaving an abusive

2:05

relationship or

2:07

disappearing after a boundary has been violated

2:10

. Being ghosted isn't

2:13

your fault . It's never your fault , because

2:15

you are not responsible for somebody

2:17

else's silence and

2:19

how they chose to

2:22

end the relationship . That's

2:25

on them , okay . And

2:27

when somebody goes there , they're basically

2:30

showing you that they're either unable or

2:32

unwilling to show

2:34

up to a healthy and mature

2:36

relationship at this time

2:39

. And the

2:41

fact that they ended the relationship

2:44

by vanishing reveals

2:47

nothing about you

2:49

. And people

2:51

ghost for a million different reasons . They

2:53

could be struggling with mental

2:55

illness , they could have an overwhelming

2:58

situation happening in their personal lives

3:00

, they could be seeing another person Like

3:02

it could be anything . So

3:04

I always advise people never to assume

3:06

that you know why you've

3:09

been ghosted . I mean , basically the whole definition

3:11

is . There was no explanation . So it's

3:13

really unhelpful to like go

3:15

down a rabbit hole of like why

3:17

. But , that being said , it's

3:19

also really helpful to

3:21

reflect on all relationships that we've been

3:23

in . We can always learn something . I

3:27

also want to say that during

3:30

your relationship with a ghost , it is possible

3:32

that you did say

3:34

or do something that made the ghost realize

3:37

okay , this isn't the right fit for me

3:39

. Okay , and if a

3:41

ghost realizes this

3:44

isn't the right match , they

3:46

vanish . And that says

3:49

everything about where they're at in

3:51

their maturity , in their communication . At this

3:54

point in time , a

3:56

healthy , mature adult

3:58

with good communication skills is

4:01

going to say oh

4:03

, I realize this isn't the right match for

4:05

me , so I'm going to break up

4:07

with this person with words

4:09

. I'm going to respectfully communicate

4:12

my truth that I don't really

4:25

see this relationship going . Dignity

4:27

is completely

4:29

100% on

4:32

them . So did

4:34

I explain that ? Well , taryn , did that make

4:36

sense ? Do you have anything to add ?

4:39

Yeah , no , I think you did a lovely job

4:41

explaining that , Gretta , and I

4:43

do . I do have a lot to add . I

4:46

think that , first off , I love

4:48

what you said about it being on them and that

4:50

you are not responsible for

4:52

how they show up , right , and

4:54

that's such an important point to make , as

4:56

often the people who are ghosted are

4:59

the kinds of people who tend to internalize

5:01

other people's actions as a reflection

5:04

of their worth . People

5:06

who tend to internalize other people's actions as a reflection

5:08

of their worth and

5:11

I think that's what you're saying is that just because someone ghosts you doesn't change

5:13

your level of worth one way or another . So I think that was one really important

5:15

point you made . And then also

5:19

, I think that it's

5:22

important to know that , like

5:24

you said , there are a lot of different

5:26

reasons someone could ghost

5:29

, but that , at the end of the

5:31

day , no matter what the reason is

5:33

, if someone is a mature , secure

5:36

adult , which we can go into , what that

5:38

piece means , they will

5:40

tell you . There is always , no matter

5:43

the situation , a way

5:45

to communicate what's going on , and

5:48

so , no matter what

5:50

, there is

5:52

no reason why you don't

5:54

deserve an explanation if you are

5:56

in a relationship with someone , or even if you're just

5:59

their friend . So

6:01

yeah , I think you made some really important

6:03

points there .

6:04

Thank you . So , with

6:06

all that being said , why

6:09

may somebody get

6:11

ghosted on repeat

6:13

?

6:14

This is a great question , because the

6:17

repeated piece is the

6:19

part where it is really important

6:21

to pay attention not just

6:24

to the fact that someone's

6:26

ghosted you , but I think that it's

6:28

a really important moment

6:30

to stop and

6:32

self-reflect anytime we notice

6:34

something happening repeatedly

6:37

, because something happening

6:39

repeatedly is indicative

6:41

of a pattern , right

6:44

and so like

6:46

. For me in my own dating life , when I was

6:48

constantly dating people who would ghost me

6:50

or just not tell

6:52

me when they started to drift off

6:55

. Or a lot of my clients say there's

6:57

a shift that happens , where they

6:59

seem so into me and everything's

7:01

going great , and then it just suddenly feels

7:03

different and you aren't

7:06

surprised if they ghost you a little while after that

7:08

. Right , maybe you relate to what I'm

7:10

saying , Gretta , with that shift , yeah

7:12

, I get it , yeah

7:15

, and that person's going through something that they can't

7:17

express , they don't know how . Maybe

7:20

they are having their own trigger

7:22

or reaction to whatever may have just happened

7:24

and don't have the tools or , like

7:26

you said , are either unable meaning

7:29

they don't have the tools , they don't have the language to

7:31

communicate it , or they're unwilling and

7:33

they just choose not to because it's difficult

7:36

, inconvenient , not easy

7:38

to have a confrontation , right ? And

7:41

so they ghost , right , right , and so they go straight

7:43

. And so I think it's

7:46

really important to notice when

7:48

that's happening to you repeatedly , because

7:50

that's when you stop and over . No matter

7:52

what they look like

7:54

, what

8:11

their job , what their cultural background , the relationship generally ended the same

8:13

way in either ghosting , or me wanting more from the relationship

8:15

and them not wanting to give it . And

8:17

so at that point I

8:19

had to say I'm

8:22

the common denominator here , right

8:24

? And so why is that ? And so it's

8:26

really important at that moment to

8:29

not approach yourself with judgment , right

8:31

, but with curiosity why

8:34

? Why is this happening , right ? And

8:36

so that's actually what led me down the

8:38

path to being so interested

8:41

in attachment , because I discovered attachment

8:43

theory by asking myself

8:45

that question , and what I

8:48

learned is that I had an anxious attachment

8:50

style , and I know you've talked about

8:52

attachment styles a bit on your podcast

8:54

before , so I'll just give a quick

8:56

refresher to anyone listening who might

8:58

not be familiar . But attachment

9:01

theory is the study

9:03

of how humans bond

9:06

, especially in intimate relationships

9:08

, and

9:15

initially it was studied in

9:17

the context of parent-child or caregiver

9:19

and child , I'd say , of research that's been done

9:21

on attachment is that how

9:24

you learn to love and feel

9:26

safe with a caregiver is

9:28

then how you learn to love and feel

9:30

safe in your adult relationships as well

9:32

. And so a lot of times those

9:35

behaviors you learn when

9:37

you're a child because that's really what an attachment

9:40

style is is a behavioral strategy

9:42

to feel safe in

9:44

that relationship . And

9:46

so for me , my anxious

9:49

attachment is a common one of those who

9:51

get ghosted . Because

9:53

when we have an anxious attachment

9:55

we generally had a parent

9:57

who was inconsistent

10:00

emotionally , so sometimes they would feel

10:02

safe , but then sometimes they wouldn't

10:04

, and so because of

10:06

that we knew what safety could feel

10:08

like and we craved it . We craved the closeness

10:11

, but then at the same time

10:13

that parent would suddenly switch

10:15

. And so as children we

10:17

very much internalize our parents' actions

10:20

as a reflection of us , because when

10:22

we're really young , we don't have a context

10:24

for oh , mommy's just in a bad mood

10:26

today , or mommy has a mental

10:28

health disorder and so she can't be her best self

10:31

today . Right , as children we don't understand

10:33

that and so we internalize it as a message

10:35

about our lovability , right

10:38

. And so when someone has an anxious

10:40

attachment style , what's happening

10:42

is that that parent , as soon

10:44

as they feel emotionally abandoned

10:46

by the parent and I really want to make that distinction that

10:48

we can have abandonment wounds that

10:50

are emotional even if our parent

10:53

didn't physically abandon us right

10:55

, and so if we have a parent

10:57

who will emotionally abandon us when

10:59

they are not emotionally

11:01

available or present for us

11:03

, then that child

11:05

kind of becomes preoccupied with getting

11:08

that parent's attention back

11:10

right . Like , oh no , I

11:12

messed up , mommy doesn't want to be nice

11:15

to me right now , I did something wrong . How

11:17

can I get her

11:19

attention back right ? How can I get

11:21

her to love me again ? And this is all a subconscious

11:23

process , right . And

11:31

so that's where the anxious type , the anxious style , becomes preoccupied with not being abandoned

11:33

from that early wound . Right , I will do anything to keep you

11:36

loving me , giving me attention

11:38

, so that I can feel loved , I can feel

11:40

validated right , and validation

11:42

is a healthy thing to have in relationships

11:45

. But what happens in anxious

11:47

attachment is that we

11:49

are denied it so that we need more

11:52

of it . We need more validation , we need more

11:54

reassurance right , and

11:56

so that anxious child learns to people please

11:58

. That's one behavioral strategy they learn

12:00

. They learn to throw tantrums

12:03

to get attention right and

12:05

sometimes they even ignore for

12:07

the purpose of getting attention . It's called protest

12:09

behavior , and so that

12:12

is one way Right . I

12:15

learned I had this anxious attachment style . Right

12:18

was

12:20

attracting

12:22

unavailable people , because

12:24

what ends up happening is that the

12:26

opposite , insecure style

12:28

, which is avoidant , has

12:32

an

12:35

attraction to anxious

12:37

types . Because

12:39

the anxious type is so

12:41

used to people-pleasing and

12:43

being aware of other people's needs and the avoidant

12:46

type generally grew

12:48

up alone and

12:51

had to be by themselves

12:53

, and they actually are very bad at

12:55

reading other people's needs or

12:57

feeling safe in a relationship at all

12:59

. But the anxious person

13:01

who's so eager to please makes them feel safe

13:04

and provides an emotional grounding

13:06

, and so these two styles

13:08

start to attract each other

13:10

, but they have opposing

13:13

needs . So whereas the anxious

13:15

person needs extra reassurance , the avoidant

13:17

person needs space . So whereas the anxious person needs extra

13:19

reassurance , the avoidant person needs space , and so this is a very

13:21

common dynamic , this anxious and

13:23

avoidant pairing , and it has

13:26

a name . It's

13:30

called the anxious avoidant trap , and

13:33

I like to call it the anxious avoidant

13:36

dance sometimes because there's very

13:39

specific steps that are taken that lead to it being a trap , and

13:42

I actually have a whole flow chart on it that I teach . But essentially what

13:44

it is is that the

13:46

avoidant person who tends

13:48

to be someone who , by the way , might

13:50

love bomb , because

13:53

avoidant types , that's

13:55

the word I'm looking for avoidant types

13:58

struggle to be vulnerable and

14:00

intimate in the present moment

14:02

because it feels too overwhelming to them

14:04

, because they're used to being alone , they're used

14:06

to self-soothing , they've learned not to trust

14:08

others , and so when

14:11

they are

14:14

initially in a relationship , they're usually falling

14:16

in love with the idea of someone first

14:18

, and so that's why they can tend to get

14:20

really excited in the beginning of a relationship

14:23

, and for the person who's

14:25

more anxious , that feels really validating

14:27

, that feels like exactly what we

14:30

wanted . You know maybe anyone listening if

14:32

you've dated someone who shows up

14:34

exactly how you wanted someone to show up

14:36

and calls you this way , you want

14:38

to be called and starts talking

14:40

about the future , and you get super excited

14:42

. And so what happens is that this avoidant person

14:45

is setting your expectations

14:47

really high , but as they start

14:49

getting more intimate with you , they can't handle

14:51

how intense it feels

14:54

, and so they start to back away , which

14:56

triggers the anxious person Right , and they're like , oh no , where are you going

14:58

? And so they start to back away , which triggers the anxious person right , and they're like , oh no , where are you going ? And

15:00

so they go to seek more reassurance

15:02

from the avoidant person , and the avoidant person gets

15:04

even more afraid and

15:06

backs away even more , because their level

15:09

of intensity and wanting

15:11

their attention is too much for them

15:13

. And so this is the cycle

15:15

that often leads to ghosting

15:17

. And so when

15:19

you ask I know this was a really long explanation

15:22

for your question , Gretta , but I

15:24

really wanted to give the context of it's

15:26

this very cycle that often leads

15:28

to ghosting on repeat , because

15:31

we tend to , unless we've healed

15:33

these wounds , continuously attract

15:36

the same kind of people , which would

15:38

enable this same cycle to continuously

15:40

play out over and over and over

15:42

again . Does that make sense ?

15:44

Yes , that all made sense . That really resonated

15:47

with me . I've definitely been in

15:49

the anxious avoidant trap myself . I

15:51

totally get it , and I

15:54

know that there's different types

15:56

of avoidance

15:58

. Can

16:03

you share about the different types ?

16:04

and how they may show up in relationships . Absolutely so . Avoidance

16:06

and anxious attachment

16:09

, right ? Both of those things are

16:11

malleable . So

16:16

that's the very first thing to know that when we talk about an attachment style , it's fluid , it's not stagnant

16:18

, right ? So it's really helpful to think of attachment

16:21

in general as a spectrum , right

16:24

? So there are people who are going

16:26

to be more full-blown

16:28

avoidant , which is what we call dismissive

16:30

avoidant . When they

16:32

are really checking

16:34

all the boxes of avoidance

16:36

, fear of intimacy

16:39

, fear of commitment right

16:41

, Really not in touch

16:44

necessarily with their emotions . They might

16:46

not use emotional language . In

16:48

the same way , they tend to be more

16:50

people who get excited and

16:52

want to talk about ideas and

16:55

really put a high price on

16:57

rationality . Right , the

17:00

dismissive avoidant person is

17:02

more disconnected from

17:04

their nervous system as a

17:06

protective mechanism . So when they

17:08

feel really dysregulated

17:10

in either way meaning whether they feel

17:12

good or bad , right , which

17:15

I don't generally even like the words good and bad

17:17

, but in terms of like they could feel

17:19

close to someone and happy and

17:21

it still could dysregulate them because they

17:23

really don't want to feel emotions

17:26

at all . To a degree so they

17:28

numb their nervous system , which is why sometimes

17:31

they don't even know how they feel about something

17:33

, right . So those are really

17:35

the traits of someone who is really dismissive

17:37

, avoidant , right . And

17:40

all of us have little

17:42

bits of avoidance and it really depends

17:45

on the dynamic of a particular

17:47

relationship . So someone who's anxious

17:50

might feel more avoidant

17:52

when they're in a relationship with someone else

17:55

who is anxious , right . Which

17:57

is why anxious types if you

17:59

identify as an anxious type , if

18:02

you are dating someone who really , really likes

18:04

you and is honest about

18:06

it , it might turn you off at first , right

18:08

, Because you're not used to that . You're used to chasing

18:11

people for love . You're used to being the one who's

18:13

trying to prove your worth to

18:15

someone , versus someone who just accepts

18:17

your worth right off the bat , right . So

18:20

that's one type of avoidance . The

18:22

other avoidance style

18:24

that is common , but not

18:26

as common as the rest of the styles

18:28

, is the disorganized

18:30

style , which has avoidance

18:33

in style as well . The

18:36

paradigm that I learned when I

18:38

learned about attachment styles . That term

18:40

is fearful , avoidant . People

18:42

also call it anxious avoidant . It

18:45

has a lot of different terms that all mean

18:47

the same thing , but essentially that

18:49

style is a

18:52

mix of anxious and avoidant , but

18:54

in a much more 50-50 kind of way

18:56

. So someone

18:58

who is fearful , avoidant

19:00

or disorganized . They

19:03

oscillate between feeling

19:05

anxious and feeling avoidant

19:07

. They long for closeness

19:10

the way that someone who's anxious

19:12

might . They need

19:14

a lot of reassurance sometimes the way someone

19:17

who's anxious might . But when they

19:19

feel vulnerable on a dime

19:21

they could get overwhelmed the

19:24

way someone avoidant does and just want

19:26

to disappear and ghost . But

19:28

it's just slightly different because the

19:31

true dismissive avoidant , they

19:34

don't actively long for

19:36

closeness in the same way that

19:38

someone who is fearful avoidant might

19:40

, because they don't have that same anxious

19:43

component that someone who's fearful

19:45

avoidant might . Does that make sense

19:47

?

19:47

Yeah , absolutely .

19:49

Yeah , and so those are the two main

19:52

styles that have avoidance

19:54

as like a key cornerstone

19:56

part of their style . But

19:58

something I do want to touch on that

20:01

I slightly mentioned before was protest

20:03

behavior , because a

20:05

lot of times , people who are anxious

20:07

think that they're fearful , avoidant

20:10

, or think that they have more avoidance

20:12

in their style because they engage

20:14

in protest behavior . So I really like to

20:16

clarify this that protest

20:19

behavior is when you

20:22

feel a threat to the relationship

20:24

and so you are protesting

20:27

that threat by

20:29

doing something such

20:32

as demanding attention

20:34

. Like that itself is protest behavior . Right

20:36

. If someone is not responsive to you

20:38

and it's triggering to you . It feels like

20:40

you're being abandoned and it's triggering

20:42

that initial abandonment wound , then

20:45

one form of

20:47

protest behavior for an anxious type

20:49

is to get really , really mad or like that

20:51

kind of you know typical

20:54

cliche calling you 50

20:56

times , texting you 50 times , kind of when

20:58

women are misogynistically

21:00

called needy , right or crazy

21:03

, it's usually when they are feeling triggered

21:05

and it just has become this really bad stereotype

21:08

. Right , that is protest behavior

21:10

. But another form of protest

21:12

behavior is ignoring

21:14

is stonewalling . Ignoring

21:22

is stonewalling . So , for instance , a classic example of this is when I used to date people and

21:24

I would text them , and then I don't hear back from them for , you

21:27

know , seven hours . And

21:29

then they send me some hey text

21:32

, barely answering my question

21:34

, and I'm annoyed about it . Then I don't text

21:36

them back . I'm like you didn't text me

21:38

back for seven hours . Well , I'm

21:41

not texting you back till tomorrow . You

21:43

know what I mean ? I don't know if you know what you mean

21:45

I can say , if you've ever done that

21:47

, Gretta , so that is protest

21:49

behavior , right , and sometimes people think that's

21:52

being avoidant . But

21:54

the difference is that it's coming from a different

21:56

place , right , because in that situation

21:58

, when you're ignoring someone , you're

22:01

doing it because you actually are mad

22:03

at them , because you're hurt and want their attention

22:05

, right , like , actually you

22:07

want their attention and you think ignoring them

22:10

is going to make them notice . You like

22:12

, oh , why didn't they get back to me , right ? Right

22:14

, and of course that works with avoidant types , because

22:17

when they have space they come back

22:19

because they need space . And that's

22:21

the difference is that people who are more dismissive

22:23

, avoidant or even fearful avoidant

22:25

actually need the space

22:27

because they feel overwhelmed , need

22:29

to process . Maybe they don't know how they feel

22:32

. So

22:36

it's coming from a different place than people

22:38

who Engage in protest behavior

22:40

, right . So I think that's really important to

22:42

clarify . So , bringing it

22:44

back to , though , the idea of this being a spectrum

22:47

, right , someone may be a

22:49

dismissive avoidant , but they might

22:51

not show as many signs

22:54

of avoidance as someone who's extremely

22:56

dismissive , avoidant on the spectrum , right

22:58

? So a good example

23:00

of this is like one

23:03

of my clients . She has an avoidant

23:05

boyfriend . He is

23:07

her boyfriend

23:09

. They've been together for three years but

23:11

every single you

23:14

know step of the way

23:16

is like one

23:18

step forward , two steps back . One step

23:21

forward , two steps back in terms of him

23:23

calling her his girlfriend , in terms

23:26

of them moving in together . Right , like he's

23:28

very resistant but

23:30

he's not as dismissive , avoidant

23:33

as , for instance , her boyfriend

23:36

before that , who never wanted

23:38

to meet her kids , never wanted to go out with

23:40

her anywhere . Right , like this man

23:42

is part of her family , he's met her kids

23:44

, he's included them in his life , but he still has

23:47

avoidant traits when they fight

23:49

and when it comes to commitment . But

23:51

they are able to make their relationship

23:53

work because they've learned how to effectively

23:55

communicate , because my client has really worked on

23:57

becoming secure and so that's helped them able

24:00

be able to have a

24:02

healthy relationship . Right , so it's OK

24:05

for someone to have some avoidance in their style

24:07

, and I think it's really easy for us

24:09

to demonize people who

24:11

are avoided a lot of the time because we're so hurt

24:13

by them , right , but not all

24:15

avoidant types are , and

24:17

I would say none of them are really

24:19

people we want to demonize

24:22

, so much as understand

24:24

why they act the way they

24:26

do . Right .

24:28

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25:14

, and a relationship can work in

25:16

if you're anxious and the other person is

25:18

avoidant . However , I would

25:20

say that I would assume

25:22

that your goal for

25:24

your client is to move the

25:27

client into a more secure attachment

25:29

style .

25:30

Yes , exactly that's how it works , because

25:32

when and that's and

25:34

that's exactly the work that I do with my clients is

25:36

I help them move into a more secure attachment style

25:38

. Because when they're more secure , one of two things

25:40

happens Either they start attracting

25:43

people who are more secure , which can

25:45

include anxious types , because anxious types

25:47

really benefit from being with

25:49

someone secure . Anxious types are a little

25:51

closer to being secure than avoidant types

25:53

. So when my client becomes

25:56

secure , then she could either

25:58

inspire an anxious type to be more secure

26:00

or she's going to attract a secure partner

26:02

or she'll inspire

26:04

the avoidant type to become a little bit more

26:06

secure . But the key is

26:09

again with that spectrum how far

26:11

dismissive they are on that spectrum

26:13

might determine how willing they

26:15

are to show

26:18

up to the relationship and also have a certain

26:20

level of self-awareness . Right

26:23

, because a relationship only

26:25

works in general if both people are willing

26:27

to do the work it takes

26:29

for it to be a healthy relationship . Right

26:31

, and you know , many relationships

26:34

survive this dynamic of

26:36

anxious and avoidant . But most of the

26:38

time , if people are not aware or

26:40

willing to self-reflect and

26:42

do that work , what's happening in the relationships

26:45

that last in this dynamic is that generally

26:48

the anxious person is sacrificing

26:50

their needs to keep

26:52

that avoidant person around . You

26:55

know which is unfortunate .

26:58

Right . So if

27:00

somebody is listening and they identify

27:02

as anxious and they're

27:04

like , well , I want to be more secure , like how

27:07

can they get to

27:09

that place ? Like how can they start changing

27:12

their relational dynamics ?

27:15

This is a great question . I love that you asked

27:17

it . So the best way

27:19

I can explain this is that

27:21

there are really

27:23

three main what

27:26

I like to call elements of attachment

27:28

, and research has

27:30

showed that you can change

27:32

your attachment style and become more secure

27:34

when you have these three elements

27:37

. So the first one is

27:39

significant relationships

27:41

, right ? So when

27:44

we become friends , even

27:46

with someone in life , or have a

27:48

relationship with someone , their

27:50

attachment style generally

27:52

is going to influence our attachment

27:55

style , right ? So if they're more secure

27:57

, we're going to feel more safe and secure . If

27:59

we're more anxious and they're more avoidant , they're

28:02

going to probably trigger us and make us feel more anxious

28:04

, right ? And so what's going on when that

28:06

happens whether with

28:08

someone secure or with someone avoidant

28:10

is that the more you're around that

28:13

person , the more they are influencing

28:15

your nervous system . They're influencing

28:18

how you feel about yourself . If

28:20

they are someone avoidant , they

28:23

might be reinforcing limiting beliefs

28:26

you have about yourself , right ? Or limiting

28:28

beliefs you have about how

28:30

other people are and the quality

28:32

of people who are out there , right , how

28:36

other people are and the quality of people who are out there , right ? And so you're just kind of making

28:38

that wound bigger when you continue

28:40

to be around someone who's always triggering you

28:42

, right Versus

28:44

when you are with someone who is more secure

28:47

, they're going to remind

28:49

you that you

28:51

are lovable . Right . They're going to remind

28:54

you that you're strong and

28:56

you're going to start , on a subconscious

28:59

level , believing that worth more . And

29:01

it's going to make you feel safer and safer and safer

29:03

to speak up with them to ask

29:05

for what you need , to set boundaries , because

29:07

you know that their response is going to be

29:09

loving and accepting , right

29:11

Versus . If it's someone avoidant , you might

29:13

not get that same loving response . Right Versus if it's someone avoidant , you might not get that same loving response

29:16

. Right and again , remembering that

29:18

, especially anxious types , we internalize

29:21

how other people treat us a lot of the time . So

29:23

if you're around someone avoidant , you're internalizing

29:25

your worth in that way , but if you're around someone

29:27

secure , you're going to internalize your worth

29:30

in a positive way , right . So

29:32

, significant relationships and really being

29:34

really intentional

29:37

and choosy with who you

29:39

allow in your life . This is why

29:41

it's so important , right , and

29:43

this is why one of the things I

29:45

always tell my clients is part

29:47

of the work I'm doing with you is helping you

29:49

to start making better choices in

29:52

the people that you're choosing to give your

29:54

time to . Right , because it really

29:56

does have an effect on

29:58

your sense of self-worth

30:01

, on your joy

30:04

, on your daily mood , right

30:06

, all of those things are going to be affected by who

30:08

you're surrounding yourself with , right ? So

30:11

that's one way

30:14

that you can start start becoming secure . That's one element

30:16

of attachment . The second

30:18

one is what I mentioned as well , which is your nervous

30:21

system , right . So , and

30:23

and these things are all

30:25

connected , right

30:27

, they , they are synchronistic

30:31

, I think is the word I'm looking for they affect

30:33

each other , right . So , when

30:37

we are around someone in

30:39

a significant relationship , they affect our nervous

30:41

system , right . So , for instance

30:44

, again , if you're anxious and you're around

30:46

someone who's avoidant and you feel

30:48

triggered a lot , you're going to feel activated

30:50

a lot . You're going to feel stressed out a lot

30:52

. You're going to be in your fight or flight

30:54

, which is usually fight for anxious

30:56

types Most of the time . Sometimes we freeze , but

31:04

a lot of the time anxious types want to fight . That's

31:06

why they get upset , right , when you don't respond , that's the fight , primal

31:08

, you know , survival mechanism of your nervous

31:10

system , and so doing

31:13

work around your nervous system is

31:15

another way to help you start becoming more

31:17

secure , which is why , with my clients

31:20

, we really work on having what I call a presence

31:22

practice , which is really

31:24

making it a part of your every day to

31:27

be with yourself , to regulate

31:29

your nervous system , so that you have

31:32

tools to calm yourself

31:34

down and regulate yourself when

31:37

you feel activated , when you feel

31:39

dysregulated . And same for avoidant types

31:41

, right , what I was saying before avoidant

31:43

types numb their nervous system , and

31:45

so they actually need tools to help them activate

31:48

their nervous system a little bit more and

31:50

to feel things a little bit more and

31:52

to feel things a little bit more , so it works

31:54

both ways . So that's another element

31:57

of security . And then the

31:59

third element is really

32:02

open-mindedness , and

32:05

what we were talking about before , that willingness to self-reflect , is

32:08

a really big part of

32:11

becoming more secure . And

32:13

again , studies have shown that when

32:16

people have more of a growth mindset

32:18

versus a fixed mindset , then

32:20

that means they're able to consider

32:22

how am I contributing

32:25

to this relationship , like we were discussing in

32:27

the beginning , how am I the common denominator , what

32:29

behavior am I bringing to

32:31

this dynamic for

32:33

it to be what it is right

32:36

? And having an open

32:38

mind and being able to then change

32:41

the way you're showing up , right that open-mindedness

32:43

and willingness to talk

32:46

to yourself differently , right ? Because

32:49

a big piece of it is that , especially

32:51

anxious types , we're not

32:53

always very nice to ourself . We

32:55

tend to have lower self-worth because we've

32:58

internalized the negative actions of others

33:00

, right . So we don't

33:02

know how to self-soothe

33:04

. We go to other people to feel soothing

33:06

, whereas both secure and avoided

33:09

types do know how to self-soothe . So

33:11

that's a big piece of it , for anxious types is

33:13

learning to self-soothe , and

33:17

so that's kind of part of what I kind of

33:19

group in that self-reflection

33:21

, open-mindedness piece . And

33:23

then the final piece of all of this that

33:26

ties to all of these three things together

33:28

, all these elements , is effective communication

33:30

, because when we

33:32

know how to effectively communicate , that helps

33:35

us in all of these regards we can regulate

33:37

our nervous system better , we can communicate

33:40

with someone in a relationship better , and

33:42

we start to believe

33:45

our worth a little

33:47

bit more when we see that we are showing

33:49

up differently in the way that we're talking to people

33:51

, whether that's through setting boundaries or expressing

33:53

our needs more . So

33:56

I love it yeah .

33:58

I love everything you just said . Thank you for sharing

34:00

all that .

34:01

Thanks , Gretta yeah .

34:04

Continue on , please .

34:06

I was just gonna say it's

34:08

a big question and

34:11

it can feel like

34:13

such a I

34:15

don't know . I think anxious

34:18

types tend to have a

34:20

bit of a perfection complex , right

34:22

? And so a lot of times anxious types

34:24

ask me that question . But what they're asking me

34:26

a lot is not just how can I become secure . They're saying

34:28

how do I fix my attachment

34:30

style ? Right ? And

34:33

I always say you don't want

34:35

to use the word fix because I don't

34:37

want to pathologize this like it's a disease

34:39

right ? It's really

34:42

more about learning to manage your

34:44

attachment style , because in the process

34:47

of managing your

34:49

triggers , of noticing

34:51

when you're feeling anxious , right , that

34:54

process in and of itself is what is

34:56

going to make you more secure .

34:58

Everything you've said has been so fascinating

35:01

. Can you share with listeners

35:03

what all of this has to do with

35:05

emotional availability ?

35:08

Yes , I love that you asked that question

35:10

, Gretta , because I

35:13

hear that a lot like oh , this person's emotionally

35:16

unavailable , and I

35:18

think that , more often

35:20

than not , when people say that they're

35:23

referring to someone avoidant , even

35:26

if they don't realize they're referring to someone avoidant

35:28

, that's what they're talking about , right

35:30

, this person is not present

35:33

is really what that means to me . When

35:35

someone's emotionally available , it means that

35:37

they are emotionally present

35:39

, and when someone is avoidant

35:41

, they tend to withdraw emotionally

35:43

, which is what makes them unavailable . And

35:46

so , kind of going back to the example

35:48

of when you're a kid and your parent

35:51

is inconsistently emotionally

35:53

available , well , what

35:55

that means is that sometimes they're going to

35:57

be responsive to your needs . They're

36:00

going to acknowledge your need , they're

36:02

going to validate you , they're going to empathize

36:04

with you , right , they're going to give you an emotional

36:07

response . They're going to give you warmth

36:09

if you're feeling sad . Right , they

36:11

are feeling your emotion with you and

36:14

saying it's okay that you're feeling that emotion

36:16

, right , and so that is

36:18

the presence piece . They are present

36:20

with you in feeling that emotion

36:23

, which could

36:25

be a very vulnerable thing . Right , when

36:28

we are feeling vulnerable , we feel

36:30

vulnerable in the present moment

36:32

. Right , and it's

36:34

the fear of

36:36

vulnerability that avoidant people

36:38

are trying to avoid because

36:40

they don't have the practice in their

36:43

life learning that being

36:45

vulnerable can be safe , right

36:47

, and so that is why they are emotionally

36:49

unavailable . They are avoiding

36:51

vulnerability . They are avoiding

36:53

feeling those big feelings with

36:56

you , and they resist even

36:59

sometimes reassuring you or acknowledging

37:01

your feelings , because

37:04

it feels too hard for them to

37:06

feel those things . It's too uncomfortable for

37:08

them , right ? But

37:10

the thing that is really interesting is that

37:12

it is not just avoidant

37:15

types who can be emotionally unavailable

37:18

. Anxious types can also

37:20

be emotionally unavailable as

37:22

well as fearful avoidant , because they fall into both

37:24

these categories , and that , I

37:26

think , is really confusing for

37:29

anxious types a lot of the time , because

37:31

anxious types tend to be

37:33

such warm people

37:35

, they tend to have good friendships , they

37:37

tend to be

37:40

very in tune with other people's needs

37:42

. Like you know , I'm sure you

37:45

, just like myself , Gretta , are a great

37:47

friend , right ? If your friend is going through

37:49

something , I'm there for you , right

37:51

? So it's really , I think , a bit of a disconnect

37:54

sometimes to think that how am

37:56

I emotionally unavailable , right

37:58

? But the truth is that

38:00

what ? What

38:03

we do when we are in a relationship

38:05

, right , is we ? We , we all

38:07

have needs , right , our relationships are based

38:10

on needs . Based

38:17

on needs , all of attachment theory is based on getting our need for love and safety

38:19

and security met . Right , that emotional need . It's actually a primal

38:21

survival mechanism for us to

38:23

feel safe in a relationship

38:26

with someone else . Right , and what anxious

38:28

types tend to do is in order

38:31

to feel safe . Right , they deny

38:33

their own needs . Right

38:35

, they put the needs

38:37

of that other person first so

38:40

that that other person is not inclined

38:43

to abandon them emotionally . Right

38:45

, but what that's doing is it's

38:47

prioritizing the other person's needs

38:49

in the relationship and

38:51

it's not allowing

38:54

their own needs to get met in that relationship

38:57

. And that ends

38:59

up having a side effect

39:01

a lot of the time in terms of resentment

39:04

. Right , it's anxious types who tend to get resentful

39:06

because their needs aren't getting met . They

39:09

then hold in their feelings

39:11

and then explode in anger a lot of the

39:13

time because they can't handle their

39:15

needs not being met . After a while they

39:18

tend to be more passive , aggressive , because

39:20

they don't know how to in

39:23

a secure way , using effective

39:25

communication and when I say effective

39:27

communication , I mean communication that works

39:29

, because you're taking the other person's attachment

39:32

needs into consideration , and

39:34

so they don't know how to do that , and

39:36

they don't even sometimes even know what they

39:38

need , because they're so used to denying their

39:41

own needs . And so in this way

39:43

, anxious types are also

39:45

showing up unavailably , right

39:47

, they are not completely being

39:50

present with their feelings in the relationship

39:52

, and so that

39:54

is also causing this

39:57

dynamic , right , this anxious , avoidant

39:59

dynamic , and so , unfortunately

40:02

, it's a kind of an uncomfortable truth . But if

40:04

you are repeatedly attracting

40:06

unavailable people , it is

40:08

an indication that on some level , you

40:10

are likely also emotionally unavailable

40:12

.

40:13

You are likely also emotionally unavailable , got it

40:15

.

40:16

Right .

40:17

Yeah . Yeah , I hear you

40:19

and I was just relating

40:21

to everything that you were just sharing . I've definitely

40:23

been that person before , allowing

40:26

other people's needs to be more important

40:28

than mine , yep .

40:29

Yeah , no-transcript

40:42

. So men and women are equally divided

40:45

between being anxious and avoidant , but

40:47

we tend to think of men as more

40:49

avoidant and women as more anxious , and

40:51

my theory about this is

40:53

that it's because men are socialized

40:56

to be a little more avoidant to not

40:58

say that there isn't some level of nature with

41:00

that right . Women have higher

41:02

levels of oxytocin , we are naturally

41:05

a little bit

41:13

more nurturing , but not to the

41:15

extent that we are kind of socialized

41:17

to be where we put everybody's needs

41:19

before ours . That's a very common thing , right

41:22

, and so it kind of , I

41:25

think , compounds , if you have

41:27

an anxious attachment style and you're a woman

41:29

, right , a cis woman , or you're socialized

41:31

to be a woman that you are

41:33

doubly a people pleaser , that

41:36

you are doubly putting other people's needs first , and

41:38

so it makes it even harder , I think , sometimes

41:40

to believe you're deserving

41:42

of getting your needs met . So

41:47

it's just it's so important to have awareness

41:49

around these things , right , because

41:51

if you're attracting unavailable people

41:54

again going back to how are

41:56

you the common denominator , how

41:58

can you start showing up more securely

42:00

? You know , by you getting

42:02

your needs met , you're not being selfish , you're

42:05

actually giving them a chance to meet your needs

42:07

. You're not being selfish . You're actually giving them a chance to meet your needs right

42:09

, and you're giving them permission to ask for their needs

42:11

to be met . So

42:20

I like to say what Brene Brown says a lot . She says clear is kind , right , and the clearer we can be about

42:22

what we need , the kinder we are to the person who's in that relationship

42:24

with us .

42:26

I love that .

42:28

Yeah .

42:29

How can people identify an

42:32

avoidant early on in

42:34

dating ? What does that behavior look like ?

42:38

Well , Gretta , I would say that across

42:40

the board avoidance aren't

42:42

necessarily always going to show up the exact

42:45

same way because of that spectrum , but

42:48

someone who is on

42:51

the more dismissive , avoidance side

42:53

of things , there's

43:03

some key things . So , first off , someone

43:05

who's more avoidant , they're

43:10

going to be a little more independent . They really really place a high value on independence

43:12

and with that they might have a little bit more rigid boundaries

43:15

, right ? So what

43:17

that looks like is maybe you

43:20

know they want you to come to their house more

43:22

often , right ? They're not as willing

43:24

to compromise with you and drive to your

43:26

house , right ? Or

43:28

you know , if they're uncomfortable

43:31

with something , immediately you tend

43:33

to be the one who acquiesces , right

43:35

. Which , again , if you're more anxious , you're used

43:37

to doing that , so you might

43:39

not think of it as a red flag . But someone

43:42

who is not willing to compromise with you

43:44

and just wants things on their terms

43:47

all the time , that

43:49

is generally a sign of someone who's going

43:51

to be more avoidant . Along

43:54

the same lines , if someone

43:57

is very

44:00

resistant to saying how they feel

44:02

about you , if they're resistant

44:04

to reassuring you , if

44:07

they get mean or

44:09

withdrawn when you share

44:11

a feeling , those

44:13

are all examples of people who are going

44:15

to be more avoidant and

44:18

then in the kind of more extreme cases

44:20

, like I was mentioning before , it's

44:23

kind of a counterintuitive thing

44:25

and I think it really confuses people

44:27

that avoidant types

44:29

can love bomb , right

44:31

. So you know , I know this is kind of

44:34

a newer term , this idea of love bombing

44:36

and how can you even tell if someone's love bombing

44:38

and I have a whole podcast episode about

44:40

this myself because it can be really

44:42

confusing for people . But I

44:44

always say like and this is why

44:46

intuition is so important when you're dating , if

44:49

it feels uncomfortable , like if

44:52

they , it seems that they are way

44:54

more excited about you than they should be for the

44:56

amount that you know each other , right , if

44:58

you're on the dating apps and they

45:01

are already saying things like well

45:03

, when we see each other , you know in three months

45:05

from now , or they're just making

45:07

comments that just seem like how

45:10

are you feeling that way already when you don't know

45:12

me ? That's an example of you

45:15

being loved bomb likely . Or

45:17

like they're making grand plans for the future

45:19

and they

45:21

haven't even like set a first date with you

45:23

yet Right , first

45:28

date with you yet right . That's them kind of doing that whole love bomb thing where

45:30

they get excited about the idea of you , because they do want a relationship in

45:32

their mind . But it's easier

45:35

to get excited when you're at a distance and

45:37

then , as soon as you actually start connecting

45:40

and they feel the emotional vulnerability

45:42

that they're so afraid of , is when they

45:44

start to freak out right . So , just

45:47

being aware of if

45:49

someone is just

45:53

too excited or it just

45:55

feels out of context , really

45:57

listen to that , because I think

45:59

it's easy to let

46:02

the fantasy mindset I like to call it take

46:05

over where we romanticize it

46:07

and we think , oh , they've come to sweep me off my feet

46:09

. The person I've been waiting for forever , right , and

46:12

someone who's secure . They're not going

46:14

to start planning your future with you before

46:19

they take you out on a date . It's

46:21

a lot more steady , paced

46:23

, in the present moment . They're not going

46:25

to be talking about the future that quickly with

46:27

you . And you know I do

46:29

have clients who are dating someone secure and

46:32

three months down the line they're talking about their future

46:34

. But that's because they've already built trust

46:36

in the present moment . It's

46:39

not like in a vacuum

46:41

that they're like let's go on this vacation

46:43

together , but I've only been out with you twice , you

46:45

know .

46:46

Right , is that helpful ? It

46:49

is , yeah , and I'd like to add one more thing . They

46:51

give you gifts , like really crazy

46:53

gifts , like maybe an airplane ticket

46:55

to go do something with you ?

46:57

Yeah , that's like part of the grand plan thing

46:59

. Yeah , did you have that happen to you ?

47:01

Um , not that exactly , but

47:03

I have been love bomb before , so yeah

47:06

, really special experience . It

47:08

is a really special experience Not in a good way

47:10

.

47:10

Yeah , and actually , Gretta , I love that you brought

47:12

that up . The gift thing , because

47:20

something that's really interesting is that avoidant types , their

47:22

love language tends to be gifts , because if you think about

47:25

it , it doesn't require a lot

47:27

of emotional vulnerability

47:29

or presence to give a gift right

47:31

, whereas something like

47:33

words of affirmation , right , Quality

47:36

time those things actually take

47:38

a little bit more emotional

47:40

commitment or emotional wherewithal

47:42

to do versus . A gift

47:45

is a much easier way to

47:47

show you care about someone , isn't

47:50

that interesting ?

47:51

That is so fascinating to me . Wow , I'm

47:53

so glad you said that .

47:55

Yeah .

47:56

So , to wrap things up , is there

47:58

anything else that you'd like

48:00

to share with listeners about

48:02

ghosting or being ghosted

48:04

on repeat ?

48:06

The thing I would love for listeners to take home is that you know ghosting , or being ghosted on repeat

48:08

. The thing I would love for listeners to take home is that you know

48:10

ghosting , specifically and

48:12

especially when it's on repeat right , can

48:15

feel so personal , right

48:18

, especially in a dating

48:20

or romantic context , and

48:23

it can hurt so much

48:25

, especially if you are a

48:27

more anxious type who is internalizing someone

48:29

else's behaviors

48:32

as a reflection of your self-worth

48:34

, right . And so the thing

48:36

that I think is so powerful

48:39

about understanding attachment , and the thing

48:41

that made me fall in love with it , is

48:43

actually being able to give yourself

48:45

compassion , that it's not

48:47

your fault that you are showing up this

48:49

way , and it's really

48:51

important to , I

48:54

think , have the awareness as

48:57

to why you're showing up that way , but

48:59

then also be able to find the forgiveness

49:01

for yourself that , hey , I

49:03

was a little kid when my

49:05

attachment style was created . I was

49:08

a little kid when my attachment style was created

49:10

. These behaviors I've learned the

49:15

reassurance that I need is because of how I was raised , and it actually has nothing to do with my lovability

49:17

or if I'm good at relationships or not , right

49:19

, and I think that's such a freeing

49:21

thought because it means we can change

49:23

it Right , we can . We can start to change things

49:25

when we understand them right , and

49:29

it also , I think , is something

49:32

that you can start to forgive yourself for , because

49:34

you realize , when you understand

49:36

the attachment piece of it all , that

49:39

when someone is ghosting you , it's

49:42

really not you personally

49:44

, you as a human being

49:47

, that they are likely rejecting , it's

49:49

your behaviors that

49:51

are reminding them of past triggers

49:54

they have had , right , and

49:56

I think it's so important to

49:58

separate those things Right Again , because

50:01

it feels so personal . When someone ghosts

50:03

you , they likely are

50:06

afraid that if they say something

50:08

, it's going to disappoint you and that will be too

50:10

much emotion for them because , avoidant

50:12

types , they are constantly

50:15

afraid of disappointing people that they love

50:17

because they think they're

50:19

defective and don't know

50:21

how to love . And so it

50:25

could not be less personal is what

50:27

I'm trying to say . When someone ghosts

50:29

you , it's really about them

50:31

and I used to hear that

50:33

and it would just like mean nothing to me , because

50:35

I'm like , how is it not about me , right ? Like

50:37

they were in a relationship with me and they're not choosing

50:40

me . In fact , they are ghosting

50:43

me , they're leaving this relationship

50:45

in the worst way possible . How can that

50:47

not be personal , but again , it's because

50:49

your behaviors were

50:52

reminiscent of a past wound of

50:54

theirs , and your behaviors

50:57

do not define who you are as a

50:59

human being , right , your behaviors

51:01

are these coping strategies

51:03

you learned when you were a kid and they

51:05

can be unlearned , right , but

51:07

it's not who you are as a person . So I

51:10

find that to be a very comforting

51:13

thought , and so I hope

51:15

that it provides your

51:17

listeners or , if you're listening to this podcast right

51:19

now , it provides you with some comfort

51:21

. You know , if you've been ghosted recently

51:23

, that it really is more about them than

51:25

you .

51:27

Thank you for that . How can listeners

51:29

connect with you ?

51:32

The best way for listeners to connect with me is

51:34

actually at my dating app challenge

51:37

, manifest Love on the Apps . So

51:39

that is where I spend five days

51:41

with you and I teach you my strategy that

51:43

all my clients use for finding

51:46

and attracting more quality

51:48

partners who are wanting and

51:50

ready to commit , and

51:52

so that they can find me

51:54

at manifestloveontheappstruerlovecom

51:59

slash register . You can also

52:01

find the link on my Instagram , which

52:03

is at underscore truer

52:05

love underscore . And my

52:07

next challenge is starting on Monday

52:09

, november 11th , and

52:11

it's a lot of fun . People leave just feeling

52:13

so much more hopeful and excited about dating

52:16

, and I dare say

52:18

that when people use this strategy

52:20

, I have been told they never get ghosted again

52:22

. So it's a bold statement , but

52:24

I take a lot of pride in that , and

52:27

I would love to see people there if they want to meet me . That's a really good way , but I take a lot of pride in that and I would love to see people there if they want to meet

52:29

me . That's a really good way to find me . And

52:31

then , of course , you can also go to my website , truerlovecom

52:34

.

52:35

Thank you for coming on here and sharing your perspective

52:37

.

52:38

Thank you , Greta . I'm such a fan of yours

52:40

and I feel like the work you are doing

52:42

is so necessary , so I'm really honored

52:44

to be on this podcast with you

52:46

. Thank you .

52:48

And listeners . Check out at Coping

52:51

with Ghosting on social media . Join my free

52:53

and private Coping with Ghosting Facebook

52:55

support group and share

52:57

this podcast . I

52:59

also have private coaching for

53:01

people who've been ghosted . Available so

53:04

you can get more information on that at CopingWithGhostingcom

53:07

. Available so you can get more information

53:09

on that at copingwithghostingcom . And finally , remember

53:17

, when you're ghosted

53:20

, you have more time to connect with yourself and people who

53:22

have stellar communication skills . You

53:28

deserve the best , thank you .