0:00

Where are you right now, Mike? I

0:02

am in a hotel room in

0:05

Cupertino, California, about

0:06

a stone's throw away from Apple

0:08

Park for WWDC. And

0:11

yesterday, I got to experience

0:14

a private hands-on demo experience

0:17

of the Apple Vision Pro. Oh

0:21

my god! What

0:25

a difference a year makes! Oh

0:28

man! I want to give a little context

0:30

for this.

0:32

Obviously, we had the keynote on Monday.

0:35

It's Wednesday as we're recording

0:37

this. So it has been an absolute whirlwind

0:39

couple of days.

0:41

We watched the keynote and I

0:44

was able to get booked

0:46

in a session

0:47

at the

0:49

hands-on area that they have. Usually

0:52

after an Apple event, you'll go to the

0:54

Stiegel's Theater and you'll get to see

0:56

and try whatever they've announced if there's hardware.

0:59

At the Stiegel's Theater,

1:01

we watched it outside with the

1:03

developers as well. Everyone's out together

1:05

like a festival. You go up to the

1:07

Stiegel's Theater and they have all of the

1:09

Macs that they announced up there. And

1:12

then there was like buzz upstairs

1:14

like, the headset's downstairs, the headset's downstairs. So

1:17

everyone goes downstairs and it is,

1:19

but you can only look at it, can't touch

1:21

it. And I have some photos of my phone

1:24

which remind me of what

1:27

the

1:27

images I've seen of when the iPhone

1:30

was announced looked like. Where it was just like

1:32

loads of people taking photos or trying to

1:34

look at this thing. But that was in

1:36

a glass tube at Macworld 2007.

1:39

But this time these were on these circular tables

1:42

and you could just see them. So people were

1:44

hoping you could try it on, but you couldn't. And Apple

1:46

has set up

1:47

a building on Apple Park.

1:51

They built a whole building on

1:54

what I believe was like

1:57

a basketball court or a soccer field or something.

1:59

I could see this structure from

2:02

across the waves where they had the podcast studio

2:04

because I recorded an episode of Upgrade

2:07

and connected from the podcast studio in Apple

2:09

Park. And

2:10

so you could see this structure the whole time.

2:12

And so it was very obvious what it was.

2:15

And they were

2:18

allowing and inviting some members of

2:20

the media to go and do the

2:22

try on experience, which was an

2:25

hour and 15 minutes long in total

2:28

and is

2:29

the hot ticket.

2:31

These are very limited and I feel

2:35

so incredibly lucky that I

2:37

was one of the people that got to try on.

2:40

And I expect it's because they

2:42

want me to talk about it on this show. So

2:45

we're doing that because also

2:47

I have a co-host who would really like

2:49

to know what this whole thing was about. Well,

2:51

I mean, you have a co-host who is at this

2:54

moment

2:55

trying to do the mental calculus of

2:57

if he has ever been more

2:59

envious of an experience that another

3:02

human being has had than the one that you had

3:04

getting to try that out. There's a lot of envy floating

3:06

around because I had, I think at least

3:09

one or

3:09

two friends try on before

3:12

my try on time was confirmed

3:14

as well. So like you could cut the envy

3:16

of a knife here in Cupertino amongst everybody.

3:19

Oh, I believe that. So for anyone listening,

3:21

the thing is though, it's like I'm really envious that

3:23

you got to try it. I too am in a hotel

3:26

room, but I'm on the opposite side of the

3:28

earth in Cambridge, just like doing a bit of a work

3:30

trip. And it's like, oh, I'm all sad and on my

3:32

own. And there's the coolest party happening on the

3:34

other side of the earth. And Mike got the hottest

3:36

ticket at the coolest party. And

3:39

so like, I'm like

3:39

so jealous, but,

3:42

but there's also this thing where I

3:44

am so happy that I

3:46

get to talk to you in

3:48

particular about this because

3:51

I was thinking about this this

3:53

morning and I

3:55

honestly think there may be

3:57

no one on earth in a better position.

3:59

to review this headset

4:02

than you because you've

4:05

been doing real work in

4:07

VR. Like we've held meetings

4:09

in VR as a thing. I haven't

4:11

listened to anyone say any of

4:13

their thoughts on this headset because I just like,

4:16

I wanted to hear what you had to say about

4:18

it. And it's like, I

4:20

have one question that I'm dying

4:23

to ask, but it is totally a case of there

4:25

is no human on earth

4:28

I could trust to answer this

4:30

question than you because

4:33

of the experiences you've had trying

4:35

out VR before. So I feel

4:38

really lucky that I get to talk to you and that

4:40

like, I can get answers from

4:43

you that I can just trust. You don't

4:45

have to do that meta calculus

4:47

for the reviewers of like, yeah, but like,

4:49

how do they normally think about this thing? So

4:52

let's talk about the headset. Like what happened? How

4:54

did you get there? Like, how did the

4:56

day go? So I was doing

4:58

a podcast recording just

4:59

before the announcement and I luckily

5:02

got like a little bit of time to sit around beforehand.

5:04

But the funny thing of getting there is you're

5:06

going through the reception at Apple Park and

5:09

the area is so far away. Like

5:11

it's like basically the other side of the ring.

5:14

So they had these golf carts and

5:16

so you'd sit on and you would be golf carted

5:18

all the way up to the try on area,

5:21

which if you want to feel like Mr.

5:23

Big Time being put on

5:25

a golf cart and taken

5:28

to your appointment, it puts you

5:29

in that Mr. Big Time mood, you know, like you're

5:32

ready to go at that point. You're like, oh, I'm a big fan.

5:35

So you arrive and they

5:37

took me into kind of

5:39

this area, which was

5:41

obviously incredibly well lit, these

5:43

beautiful sofas. And like, it looked like

5:45

an Apple store that they'd just built, right?

5:48

Which is kind of hilarious. So they take you in,

5:50

they check you in.

5:52

And the first thing you go and do is

5:55

kind of get fitted. Oh, right. Because

5:57

were you wearing your glasses? Yes.

5:59

And this is how this part works. And

6:02

my expectation is at least some of this

6:04

will be similar to what it will be like to

6:07

actually buy the thing

6:08

with one missing detail. So

6:11

the way that the Apple Vision Pro

6:14

works from a sizing

6:16

perspective is they have

6:18

these like foam kind of insert that

6:20

squishes against your face. They call it like the light

6:23

shield or whatever. Apple

6:25

will have a large selection of

6:27

these available that fit different

6:29

face shapes.

6:31

And you do a face

6:34

ID like scan on an iPhone

6:37

where it scans the shape of your face.

6:40

OK. And then they use that to

6:42

find me the closest matching

6:45

kind of like

6:46

face foam. They

6:48

have a word for this, but like the word

6:50

didn't really stick in my brain. Right. It's the face foam. I

6:52

know what you're the face. We'll call it the face foam. My

6:55

understanding is the try on experience.

6:57

They did not have access to

6:59

the full range. So I

7:02

would probably have one that would fit me even

7:04

better if I was to go through the buying

7:06

process. And I think when they're available,

7:09

if you buy online, you have to do this as

7:11

part of the process or you'll do

7:13

it like this in an Apple store. They also

7:15

want to customize the spatial audio. So you have

7:17

to do like a spatial audio scan. I've

7:19

seen this in like the set up for personalized

7:22

spatial audio where you look at the

7:24

iPhone and turn your head to the left and to the right.

7:26

So it sees the space of your ears to your nose,

7:29

I think. So you do that too. And

7:31

that's the kind of scanning part. They

7:33

then took me to the optometry

7:36

part, which I don't

7:38

think this part

7:40

will happen at Apple stores.

7:42

Right. So they go in and I gave

7:44

them my glasses and they put them in this machine

7:46

to just check my prescription so they

7:49

could get me the right vision correction for

7:52

the headset. But

7:54

I think that you have to when

7:56

these become available to buy, I

7:58

think you have to buy the prescription. lenses

8:00

separately and you just order

8:03

those with your prescription. Maybe

8:06

they'll offer this in stores. I don't think they will

8:08

and I didn't get confirmation for that. The

8:11

lenses magnetically attach and they showed

8:13

me afterwards that I took it off and they can just snap it in. And

8:16

they just attach to the unit itself so

8:18

you could change them out and maybe so other people could

8:20

use them. I actually don't

8:23

think this is a device that's intended

8:25

to be used by more than one person. Kind

8:27

of basically like an iPad, right? An iPad

8:31

realistically is supposed to just be used by one person. It's

8:33

not like a Mac where you can have multiple users,

8:36

but you can have it used by multiple

8:38

people. So I think that the Vision Pro will

8:40

be a similar experience of like

8:43

they kind of intend it to be yours, but

8:46

I guess you could buy extra lenses

8:48

if someone else in your home wanted to use it as well. Yeah,

8:50

I'm not surprised by that at all. I just kind of assumed it would

8:53

be a single user device. So I'm actually pretty

8:55

happy though that it's magnetic so you could

8:57

do that, right? Like if it was like, oh,

8:59

you ordered it and then the lenses were just like

9:02

fixed inside of the thing. I think that wouldn't

9:04

be a great experience for the letting

9:06

up of people in your home. Try it and use it.

9:08

Maybe they want to watch a movie or whatever. I mean, in single

9:11

people's prescriptions changed. That was something

9:13

that was on my mind straight away. It's like, well,

9:15

my vision has gotten worse over the years. It's like

9:17

it's thing you need to update and I wouldn't want it to be locked to

9:19

the device. The lenses are being offered

9:22

by Zeiss. I think

9:24

that this might be one of the reasons, one

9:26

of the many reasons why it's US only

9:28

to begin with, because I think they're going to have to

9:30

make these partnerships

9:32

for the lenses to be made in every

9:35

country that they're doing this in. It

9:37

kind of reminds me of some of the Apple Watch

9:39

features where like, okay, this is now a

9:41

health related thing. So you're going

9:43

to have to make individual

9:46

arrangements in every country for

9:49

somebody to produce the vision lenses. So

9:51

like, I'm sure it's also there, like there's

9:53

a million reasons why it's going to be US only. Like

9:55

they don't, not going to make too many, but

9:57

I think this will just be another kind

9:59

of.

9:59

like stone on that pile for why the

10:02

rollout will probably be slow. So

10:04

I'm going

10:05

to sit down and they take me into

10:07

a room. Now, unlike a lot of

10:09

these types of experiences, when you go for briefings

10:12

or hands-ons,

10:13

this was an apps, the completely private

10:16

demo. So it was me and

10:18

two people from Apple. And we're

10:20

in this room that they've made that looks

10:23

like a living room. Like I assume they

10:25

had like 12 of these living rooms built inside

10:27

of this structure. So like I'm

10:29

sitting down on a couch, there's a coffee table

10:32

in front of me with this beautiful tray that

10:34

inside of it has my vision pro

10:36

to try on. Just sit in there. Oh

10:39

man. And the spokespeople

10:42

have it. They're sitting there like one person

10:44

was like actually guiding the experience.

10:46

And we had another person sitting in who could also help

10:48

answer any questions. And they

10:51

were able to see what I could see on

10:53

an iPad, which I think that

10:55

is like just a for this, right? So

10:58

like they could help guide me through and make

11:00

sure that they could see what I was seeing, they could help me

11:02

if I had any questions. So

11:04

the thing that I was immediately struck

11:06

by was the strap

11:09

on the vision pro had like a top

11:11

headband strap, which isn't what all

11:14

of the hero images show. All

11:16

of the imagery show it's like, like ski

11:18

goggles. It's just one strap that goes around the back of

11:20

your head. But they also

11:22

have an additional, if you want to

11:24

include it, strap that goes over the top,

11:27

like the meta quest pro. Oh, okay.

11:30

All right. Right. Because my initial

11:32

thing of seeing that was like, there is no way

11:34

to me that this would be comfortable for long

11:36

periods of time without a top head strap

11:39

to kind of help. And

11:41

I asked afterwards

11:43

a question about that strap, because I didn't

11:45

remember seeing it in the keynote, but they said it was in there

11:47

for a moment that they are

11:49

at this point

11:50

still finalizing

11:54

what the actual strap experience

11:56

will be like the kind of the headband like

11:59

that part. at the back is done and

12:02

they're kind of still working through the final

12:04

components of it, but they expect

12:07

that they will offer an additional like over

12:09

the top strap. And they also said

12:11

they expect that like the Apple

12:13

Watch, there will be lots of third party

12:16

options for different comfort levels that

12:18

people will be able to make because it's an interchangeable

12:21

strap experience like the Apple

12:23

Watch.

12:24

So I thought that was fascinating because one,

12:27

they will probably have options, but two, Apple

12:29

fully expects that other companies will

12:31

make headbands and straps for this

12:33

device. So that makes

12:36

me feel very positive about like the

12:38

comfort levels because what

12:40

I will say is

12:42

this is heavy. I

12:45

should have expected it. I thought the

12:47

removing of the battery would change it, but

12:50

realistically, the easiest way

12:52

I can describe this device

12:55

is it's the AirPods Max

12:58

of VR devices where

13:00

the materials that they have chosen to make

13:02

it look and feel and act the way that

13:04

they want means that for

13:07

a device in its class, it is a heavy

13:09

version of that device. I know this is like

13:11

impossible to judge, but

13:13

was your gut feeling that it's heavier than the Metacrest

13:15

Pro?

13:18

I can't say if it's heavier overall,

13:21

but it's heavier on the front of my face.

13:24

Okay. And all I'll say is it was I

13:26

only noticed the weight when I put it on.

13:29

After that, that went away.

13:31

You know, like I wasn't paying attention to

13:33

it the whole time, which for me is

13:35

the same as AirPods Max. Whenever I

13:37

put my AirPods Max on, I'm struck by the weight

13:39

of them. I have them on right now, but I can also

13:41

wear them for 11 hours.

13:44

Right? So like, I am aware that it's

13:46

heavier. I am not sure

13:48

if that would impact my experience

13:51

because the issue that I have

13:54

using my Metacrest Pro for two

13:56

hours has nothing to do with the weight

13:58

of the device. Yeah.

13:59

the quality of the screens. If

14:02

anyone listens to our special episode on

14:04

the MediQuest Pro, yes, the weight

14:06

of the device, I don't know if we even mentioned

14:09

it except in passing. It was, didn't

14:11

make the top 10 list of things. Yeah,

14:13

none of these devices are incredibly

14:16

comfortable right now because it's just not

14:18

where we are in the life cycle of this

14:21

product category. Like we're a long

14:23

way away from maximum comfort. Like at

14:25

the moment, we haven't even entered miniaturization

14:28

for most of these things. That's all to come.

14:31

Because again, remember like Apple's

14:33

idea for this product, this

14:36

is an AR product. Like that

14:38

was, it was very clear to me with the

14:40

announcement and it was clear to me with the

14:42

demo. It looks like a VR product

14:45

and you can make it act like a VR product, but

14:47

for them, this is an AR product. And if you

14:49

look at it through that lens, all

14:51

of this is going to go away eventually. That

14:54

ski goggle effect, that's all going

14:56

to just like over time, shrink,

14:58

shrink, shrink until there's just a pair of glosses.

15:01

Like that's the goal.

15:02

So I don't know in the long term how important

15:05

the weight is. I just, I thought I did think that

15:07

was fascinating watching the keynotes.

15:10

I just, I really had this feeling of,

15:13

I'm very glad that we've done

15:15

a bunch of stuff in VR because it made

15:17

it much more clear to me what Apple was

15:20

not trying to do. And

15:23

it really felt like, oh, this is Apple

15:25

taking their usual path

15:28

of arriving late to

15:30

a market and doing much

15:33

less than whatever the top of

15:35

the line is. But the

15:37

things that they're choosing to do, they're

15:39

really focusing on. And

15:42

I was just so aware of that during

15:44

the keynote of like, they are pitching this

15:47

as

15:49

screens in your living

15:51

space. So hard.

15:53

Right? But like, but you are not disconnected.

15:55

It's not like when we do our meetings for Cortex

15:58

brand in VR and we're in a total

15:59

virtual environment. It's like there was

16:02

a none of that. I think I wouldn't

16:04

have picked up on that as clearly

16:06

if we hadn't done some of this stuff before. And

16:08

that's particularly why I'm interested to hear like your

16:11

thoughts on this because you have that as a frame of reference.

16:13

Yeah. And going through the whole experience,

16:15

it was just like always in the back of my mind of like

16:18

comparing it. And I kept mentioning

16:20

like, oh, compared to other products

16:22

that I've tried, this is very different

16:24

because of this. Like I kept talking about

16:26

that, but spoiler alert in all

16:28

positive ways.

16:29

So the hardware itself also

16:33

feels like the AirPods Max

16:35

in that it is incredibly high quality,

16:37

right? Like it feels incredibly

16:40

well put together. The adjustment

16:43

mechanism for the band is amazing.

16:46

So it's like this little wheel that you turn,

16:49

and as you turn it, you

16:51

feel the back headband just be

16:53

pulled together. It's pulled together like this

16:55

tension string, and you just feel

16:58

it like very gently close

17:00

on the back of your head. And it's like it just feels

17:02

so much nicer than anything

17:04

else that I've tried. Like the wheel

17:07

on the Metacrest Pro feels like I

17:09

could break it off if I tried too hard.

17:11

But this is just like this tiny little wheel that you turn

17:14

very comfortable to put on. And so then I'm immediately

17:17

into the

17:18

headset after all I have to do a bit of

17:20

a setup where you're like it's testing

17:22

your eye tracking. So you kind of like look at

17:24

these dots, and it's just like testing

17:26

your eye tracking. And then it like registers

17:29

your hands, you like put your hands up. And

17:31

so it can start the tracking of your hands, because

17:33

that's the entire interaction model. It's eyes

17:35

and hands, right? You look around with your

17:38

eyes, and you click by pinching

17:40

your finger and thumb together. And you

17:42

can do that you can have your hand on your lap,

17:45

but kind of behind you like it's got very

17:47

good range of picking

17:50

up the detection for the there will

17:52

be a name for this but like the pinching to

17:54

select. And obviously, the first thing

17:56

that I'm met by is the pasta experience.

18:00

which was surprising.

18:02

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all of Relay FM. It's

20:02

full color pass-through

20:04

and what it feels

20:06

like

20:07

is I am looking through the

20:10

headset.

20:10

I do not feel like

20:13

my eyes are connected to cameras.

20:15

Really? Yes. Now,

20:17

the clarity of the image

20:21

is almost there. It feels like

20:23

there is a noise to the image. And

20:25

what it reminds me of is if you

20:27

take a photo on your iPhone

20:30

in low light

20:31

and just things kind of have like a slight

20:34

fuzziness or muddiness to them,

20:37

like that's kind of like the image

20:39

quality.

20:41

But the biggest thing is the latency.

20:43

It is imperceptible. There

20:46

is a moment in the demo where they make

20:48

me stand up and move around and I felt

20:51

so comfortable to just get up and walk. Like

20:53

I felt like I had just as much

20:56

like field of view as I would normally have as

20:59

a human with my eyes. Wow. Okay.

21:01

But the biggest thing is like everything

21:04

else that I've tried is either black and white or

21:06

it's like an image where you

21:08

feel like you're looking through a low quality

21:10

camera.

21:12

This has not that at all.

21:14

Like

21:15

I feel like I would be able

21:17

to read

21:18

anything

21:20

that someone could put in front of me. It

21:22

really just felt so much more like

21:24

I was looking through.

21:26

And this was where I got the biggest

21:29

example of the foveated

21:31

rendering. So this is the idea that

21:33

wherever you're looking with your eyes

21:36

is the clearest the image will be. So like

21:40

the two people at Apple was

21:42

sitting on the left and right to me and

21:45

they were just slightly blurred. But it

21:47

was blurred in a way that feels natural

21:49

to how my eyes are blurred for things in my peripheral

21:51

vision. And as soon as

21:54

I would look at someone they were immediately in

21:56

focus.

21:57

In the presentation when they said that thing about the

21:59

the foveated rendering. rendering, I was like, oh,

22:01

you geniuses, right? Because human

22:03

vision isn't uniform. Like we just, we

22:05

think it is, but it isn't. And

22:08

yeah, like all the stuff that you're not looking at

22:10

is not remotely as in focus as you even

22:13

think it is. So that's a genius,

22:15

I

22:16

guess, processing power saver of like,

22:18

we're not trying to render the whole thing in perfect

22:21

resolution. I think I'm a little bit unclear

22:23

though, is when you say like, it feels like you're looking through

22:25

the glasses, is it a 3D

22:27

effect? Or is it still like a screen?

22:30

It's just an extremely sharp feeling screen?

22:33

I wouldn't say there was a 3D effect. Like

22:35

it's just like a 3D effect of how your eyes

22:37

make the world look 3D.

22:39

Like that's just what it looked like. Okay, yeah, that's what

22:41

I'm wondering though. Cause again, I'm thinking about

22:43

on the VR for

22:45

pass through the Wii U's.

22:47

When I'm looking at the world,

22:50

there's no pretense at all that it's anything

22:52

other than looking through a camera. Like

22:54

I kind of think of it as like Robocop vision,

22:57

right? It's like, this is what the world looks like if

22:59

your eye was a VHS camera

23:01

and there's just no depth except

23:04

for what you know must be depth

23:06

because you're a person who's lived in the world. That's

23:09

what I'm wondering about. Cause again, in

23:11

their little demo, right? They really

23:13

kind of focused on a couple of things. And one

23:16

of them was like, oh, the little girl, she kicks the soccer

23:18

ball to the dad and he stops it. That's

23:20

the kind of thing you really want to have some

23:22

actual depth information to be able

23:24

to do properly. Like they focused a lot on

23:26

people handing other people

23:29

stuff. And I'm just wondering

23:31

if it seemed like they

23:33

were doing the thing like in VR where you have to

23:35

render slightly different images to each eye

23:38

so that you have some sense that there's real

23:40

depth there. It's not interpolated

23:43

depth. It just felt like I was wearing a pair

23:45

of safety glasses in that like regard.

23:47

Like it just felt like I could

23:49

see everything

23:50

as normal. And then what enhanced that was

23:53

the visual elements where we are

23:55

in my experience so

23:57

far. There's no UI yet. Like

23:59

I'm just... just looking through, when the UI

24:02

comes into play, it's casting shadows.

24:04

There was a demo where it put some text, and

24:07

the text moved back towards the wall, and

24:10

when the text got towards the wall, there was a shadow

24:12

of the text on the wall. Okay, all right,

24:14

so yeah, they're doing real 3D processing,

24:17

right? They're doing a bunch of 3D mapping stuff. It

24:19

has IR cameras and blasters,

24:22

like they do for the Face ID. They

24:24

have that in the headset. So that's projecting

24:27

to understand the space of the room, but

24:29

also means that if the lights were

24:31

off, you could still use all the gestures

24:33

because it uses that to track your hands. Okay,

24:36

right, right. So that's like for Face ID. So

24:38

the first thing you do is

24:41

you reach up and you press the digital crown,

24:43

and that brings up the home screen,

24:45

like home

24:46

view thing, which has all of the apps.

24:50

This is where I am introduced to eye tracking.

24:53

I

24:55

cannot express enough

24:58

how absolutely incredible the

25:02

eye tracking is.

25:04

I'm getting goosebumps right now explaining this

25:06

to you.

25:07

I have never experienced

25:09

something like this before, where

25:12

the way that you select things is by

25:15

looking at them. I

25:17

didn't know my eyes could be so precise. I

25:19

did not know that anyone

25:22

could detect that my eyes were looking

25:24

at a specific button

25:27

on something. Like with

25:29

the way that I'm looking at my Mac right now, I

25:31

have the Skype window up, and there's like

25:33

a red hang up button on the Skype

25:35

window. When I'm using

25:38

the Vision Pro, if I wanted

25:40

to hang up, I would just look at that button and tap

25:42

my fingers together and it knows. And

25:44

like, if I'm looking at my Mac right now, I'm

25:47

looking at that button, and I feel like there's no

25:49

way that anything could detect that I'm looking

25:52

exactly at this tiny button,

25:54

which is like a centimeter. But this

25:56

headset knows. And in my

25:59

half an hour,

26:00

not one thing was detected

26:02

incorrectly. The only trouble

26:05

I had with this system is if I

26:07

was thinking too much about it. If

26:09

I was looking for a button or whatever, sometimes

26:12

I would move my head towards the button to

26:15

make sure I was looking straight on at it. I'm

26:17

overthinking it. The way

26:19

that they guide you through the experience is

26:21

very clever because at first, they're like,

26:24

look at this and then tap your fingers

26:26

together. Then eventually, they're just like, just close

26:28

that image. I go boop

26:30

and it's gone. I was skeptical

26:33

about the interaction method. I

26:35

genuinely didn't think they'd be able to pull it off because it

26:37

feels like it's too precise. Both

26:40

the eyes and the tapping of the fingers,

26:43

it was perfect. I don't know how they've done it.

26:45

I can't work it out. It feels too good.

26:48

It's unbelievable. There's

26:50

this one moment where the

26:53

HomeView has all of these icons,

26:56

circular icons. It's

26:59

like you look between them and it's

27:02

like TVOS in a way. Or when you use

27:04

the trackpad on iPadOS, when you look at them, they

27:06

shimmer a little bit so you can see

27:08

where you're looking. But also on the left-hand

27:10

side, there are these three

27:13

icons. Apps, People,

27:15

Environments. That's what these three selectors

27:17

were. It takes you to different

27:20

menu hierarchies. You're

27:22

looking at the apps initially and they wanted me

27:24

to go to the environments thing. So

27:27

you just go select the environments from the left

27:29

and I look over and as I look over, it expands

27:31

into a menu. And then as I look

27:34

up and down, it highlights each part in the menu.

27:36

And these are three elements stacked right on top

27:38

of each other. And it could detect which

27:40

one of those three I was looking at.

27:43

It's just like I don't

27:45

know how they're doing it because it just feels

27:48

too perfect. It's unbelievable.

27:50

So I'll jump to

27:52

the environments part. So when you open environments,

27:55

you're given a selection of places

27:57

in the world

27:58

that you can choose from.

27:59

and they have you choose Mount

28:02

Hood, you select it. I

28:04

couldn't tell if it was CGI or

28:07

someone had taken 3D camera to this place. I

28:09

think realistically it's a mixture of both.

28:12

I was going to say, yeah, it's almost certainly it's both. Yeah.

28:14

And so this is where they're like,

28:16

okay, turn the crown

28:19

and you'll be in a VR environment.

28:22

So you are able to, it was like maybe

28:24

two full turns of the digital

28:27

crown as it was fading

28:29

from the front of my eyes to enveloping

28:32

me all the way around.

28:33

And I could stop at any point in that.

28:36

So I could choose the exact amount of immersion

28:38

that I wanted to be in the kind of VR environment

28:40

that I was in. It looked as

28:43

good as any of these VR environments that

28:45

I've seen. I could turn all around. They

28:47

had like spatial audio. It was raining,

28:50

so I had the sound of rain. But

28:53

this was to demo the idea of someone

28:55

could just pop into your view.

28:58

So

28:58

like one of the Apple spokespeople kind

29:01

of like lent towards me and

29:03

he started to pop in like a force

29:05

ghost into my image. This

29:07

is the idea that if you're in VR,

29:09

someone can actually talk to you and

29:12

as they approach you, they start to appear. Again,

29:15

it was like all I could see was the guy. I

29:18

couldn't see the world around him

29:19

and they do it where he's kind of like

29:22

faded, kind of wispy until we got closer and

29:24

closer and I could see him perfectly.

29:26

And then he's like, lift up your hands and lift

29:28

up my hands. And they're doing that

29:31

like basically perfect

29:34

pass through of just my actual

29:36

hands in these VR environments. Oh,

29:38

OK. There's no fake hands here. Like

29:40

I pick it up and it's my hands. So

29:42

like that was all fantastic.

29:45

I didn't get to use apps

29:47

in this part,

29:49

but I know that's the thing that you can

29:51

do from ever seeing the videos, right, that you can

29:53

be using Microsoft Word

29:55

or whatever

29:56

and also be in an environment.

29:59

Again, that was kind of all I really got with

30:02

that part, because again, I think there were more wanting to show

30:04

the like, look at this in

30:06

the space that we're in, which again, like Apple seems

30:08

to be focusing more on the AR part. We

30:11

looked at photos and videos, and

30:14

this was where I got to experience the

30:16

gestures of the device. So this

30:18

was like swiping and

30:20

pinch to zoom, and it was all incredibly natural.

30:22

You know, like you just pinch your fingers together

30:25

and swipe left, swipe right, up,

30:27

down, and that's how you'll scroll through things. And

30:29

like pinch to zoom, you take both hands, you

30:32

just pull them apart, right? And it zooms in. It

30:35

was all incredibly natural again, like

30:37

in a way where he just was like, can you just

30:39

go to the right? And I just did it. It worked.

30:42

And this is where I saw like panoramas and stuff.

30:45

And the panoramas were fine.

30:46

Like I think that the panorama

30:49

stuff, I don't think that the iPhone

30:52

camera is high quality enough

30:54

yet

30:55

to make that truly feel like

30:57

an immersive experience. But it's

30:59

nice that you have a way to look at your panoramas

31:02

like all around you. Like it's a cool feature,

31:05

but I could imagine Apple making

31:07

the panorama camera experience

31:10

higher quality in the future. Like

31:12

I think about the 48 megapixels in the pro.

31:14

It's like, oh, that's what you'd want it for. Yeah,

31:17

you want as much detail as possible

31:19

if you're taking these kinds of images. You know,

31:23

and then we had the like 3D

31:25

photos and videos, spatial

31:27

photos and videos. I

31:30

don't know about this part, so like they

31:33

look really good.

31:34

It's almost like creepy

31:37

how good they are. The videos,

31:39

especially they have in the demo,

31:42

they showed a birthday like a kid's birthday,

31:44

and that's what you see.

31:45

So you are sitting there and there's a cake in front

31:48

of you

31:49

and the child blows out the candles

31:51

and the smoke comes towards your eyes, which

31:53

was smart, the way they put that together.

31:55

So you're like, oh, and it's like feels pretty immersive.

31:58

And then the family's having like a fun moment.

32:01

And it's like, this looks really good,

32:04

but

32:04

I don't like the

32:07

way this was made. I totally agree

32:09

with you there. That was the part where I was like, I don't

32:11

care how cool these 3D videos

32:13

are made. The idea of like, dad

32:16

has the headset on while he's recording

32:19

his daughter's birthday. I was like, I don't like that very

32:21

much. So the experience

32:23

of these photos and videos, these special photos

32:25

and videos was really good.

32:28

Apple clearly will create a

32:30

way to make these. That's not just

32:32

with this headset. For sure. It's going to be in the

32:34

phone at some point. Cause I don't know

32:36

like how far apart the lenses need to

32:38

be. Like I could imagine this maybe coming

32:41

to the iPad first because

32:43

you could just put a lens on each corner of the iPad,

32:46

right?

32:47

Like to make them.

32:48

I don't know what it needs. Do I believe

32:50

Apple has some kind of way of making this work

32:53

eventually? Yes. Like I think they'll find a way. And

32:55

I think that's important. It's cool that you can

32:58

capture these photos and videos, but

33:00

to me it feels like I would only

33:02

want to do that as like a look at this thing

33:04

I can do

33:06

because I'm not going to be wearing my Vision

33:08

Pro

33:09

at the family gathering. In that presentation,

33:12

I was just constantly blown away

33:14

by how good of a job

33:16

they were doing at pitching it towards

33:19

normal people wanting to do

33:21

normal things. And that

33:23

was the only one that was like, a

33:26

tiny bit of a misstep is I think

33:29

a lot of people won't like love the idea

33:31

of having a headset on to record

33:34

family moments or really

33:36

what normal people won't like is the idea that

33:38

someone at the family moment has

33:40

the headset on. That was the tiniest

33:43

one that felt like it was a little bit off and otherwise

33:46

a presentation

33:46

that was just pitch, but

33:48

constantly nailing.

33:51

How is this actually

33:54

useful for regular people,

33:57

not for VR nerds? And I

33:59

think they did just such a...

33:59

Amazing job of it, but I didn't

34:02

even think about that for you getting to see a demo

34:04

of what this 3d videos would look Like they look

34:06

really great, but

34:08

it just doesn't the

34:10

capturing of it feels wrong and I would be

34:13

So surprised if by the time this thing comes

34:15

out They haven't shown you how you'll be able to take

34:17

them otherwise like there is

34:19

a whole like nine months Maybe

34:22

until this thing is available You could introduce

34:25

new iPads and new iPhones that could have this

34:27

technology and then by the time The

34:29

vision Pro comes out. This just isn't weird anymore,

34:31

right? Like because yeah now you can make them

34:33

in a different way, but I like that it's

34:35

there I actually think I could imagine

34:37

it being better to be there for work

34:40

stuff, right? So again, I take a picture of

34:42

a thing on my desk to

34:44

send to you and now you have some idea

34:46

of it's like scale Yeah, I just

34:49

think that's exactly how I would

34:50

have demoed it like not with a family moment

34:52

I would have demoed it as like oh, hey I want

34:54

to I'm on site and I want to show you something

34:56

right and like here's a video And then now you can get a good

34:59

look at it I love live photos right and

35:01

live photos give this additional context

35:03

to the moment that the picture was taken Yeah, yeah,

35:06

this is that times a thousand. Yeah,

35:08

I Just I just

35:10

bullied a family member into turning on live photos

35:12

on their phone because it still left it off in

35:15

the From whenever that was first introduced

35:17

it like that's not a thing. I was like trust

35:19

me you want this

35:20

It's just an additional thing for

35:22

some moments and you're crazy

35:25

not to have the option there because it just makes photos better

35:28

So yeah, I can easily imagine I didn't really think about

35:30

that But I can imagine that

35:32

Yeah They just have a way to record this on your iPhone

35:35

or on your iPad And so you have these things as

35:37

a as a separate thing and then you just need to view them

35:39

in full form on the vision Pro

35:42

we next moved on to

35:44

multitasking

35:46

so

35:47

they were showing me how I could have multiple apps

35:49

open and the way I can move them around

35:51

and You

35:53

know like the iPhone has that bar at the bottom

35:55

Mm-hmm like there's always there we do the

35:58

gestures. There's one of those on each app

36:00

window and again you just look at

36:02

it and you grab it

36:03

by holding your finger and thumb together and

36:06

you just move it. You can push it backwards, you

36:08

can bring it towards you, you can put it to the left,

36:10

to the right, anywhere you want. It looked like stage

36:13

manager. Yes. It actually kind

36:15

of made me think, oh, this is what stage manager

36:17

was for. Like it was not for the iPad,

36:19

it was for this. Yes, it's like stage manager.

36:22

I took the photos window and I put it

36:24

over to the left.

36:25

I opened up Safari and then

36:27

I opened up Messages. Messages just automatically

36:30

popped in on the right but I had the ability

36:32

to move it. I even overlapped them

36:34

and when you overlap,

36:36

it kind of fades the

36:39

window behind you a little bit

36:41

just with the space that is taken

36:43

by the

36:44

app that you put in front of it.

36:46

So they're very aware of each

36:48

other from a physical standpoint. They

36:51

feel like real things and the fading

36:53

between the two was really good. And then I

36:55

could look at Safari, I could scroll.

36:58

The scrolling gesture is the one I'm not 100%

37:01

sure of yet. If I was reading an article,

37:03

I don't think I would like to scroll, scroll,

37:06

scroll. I would probably like to use a trackpad, which

37:08

you can do. So I could imagine in that

37:10

environment, I'm probably at my desk anyway if I'm going

37:12

to be sitting and reading a long article. And

37:14

so just using my trackpad I think would be nicer.

37:17

But I may have been overdoing the gesture.

37:19

I think I might have put more into it than was needed,

37:22

you know, like I'm moving my whole arm, which

37:24

I feel like maybe wasn't necessary. And

37:27

I know what you want to know, Gray,

37:29

how crisp was the text? This

37:34

for me, when I'm watching the whole presentation,

37:36

having

37:38

been in VR before, we talked

37:40

about it on that special episode, the

37:42

downfall of these systems is

37:45

that the resolution is bad.

37:49

In most environments in VR, that just

37:51

doesn't really matter. But the moment

37:53

you have to look at anything that's text,

37:57

that's when it becomes clear how the

37:59

resolution just

37:59

just isn't there. So this

38:02

is my experience watching the thing. It's like,

38:04

I am blown away by this

38:06

presentation that they're giving. But in

38:08

the back of my mind, I could never turn

38:11

off. But what does it really

38:13

look like? The only comparison I can

38:15

make is, it's a bit like in movies

38:18

where they do a FaceTime call. And

38:20

that FaceTime call is like the most perfectly

38:23

crisp zero latency video

38:25

you've ever seen. It's like, that's not

38:27

what a real FaceTime call looks like, right?

38:29

This is very clearly a camera that's superimposed

38:32

on the screen of the phone. That was the thing to me.

38:34

I was like,

38:34

man, this is

38:36

the critical slider. I

38:39

want to be super

38:41

blown away by this.

38:43

But if the way that it's being shown

38:45

in the demo

38:47

is significantly higher resolution

38:49

than it actually seems at the time, it

38:51

really changes the experience of a

38:54

lot of this. And so yes, this

38:56

is my number one question

38:58

to you is what is the resolution

39:01

really like when it really

39:03

matters if you were really

39:06

going to do a bunch of work like writing

39:08

or emails or other office stuff?

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41:24

at fitbod.me.cortex. Our

41:27

thanks to FitBard for their support of this show and

41:30

Relay FM. Before

41:32

I answer your question, if I

41:34

could

41:35

give an example of like saying

41:37

that oh in the imagery there is no way it's

41:39

like real life, the pass through is

41:41

one of those because like in the demos

41:44

and in the videos

41:45

it looks like the actual real

41:47

world

41:48

where the actual pass through it has a

41:50

little bit more visual grain like noise to

41:53

the image right? Like yes, it was

41:55

much better than I expected but like

41:57

to set it in reality is like yeah it's not

41:59

actually that crystal clear, right?

42:02

But

42:03

looking at a Safari web page,

42:06

white page, black text, this

42:08

was one of the things that highlighted to

42:10

me the

42:11

difference between the app and

42:14

the real world, because the Safari

42:16

web page was crystal clear.

42:19

Was it retina? I don't know, right?

42:21

Like, did the text look fuzzy?

42:24

Not at all, right? But like, would this be

42:26

classed as like whatever Apple class

42:28

says retina text? I

42:31

don't know, but I would sit there and read in this thing

42:33

much more comfortably than anything

42:36

else. It's the crispest text I've seen in a VR

42:38

headset. Hmm. Easily. It's

42:41

crisper than I've seen in any operating system,

42:43

app or game. Like, it looked great. You

42:45

could, I could zoom in on the text if I wanted

42:48

to. I could imagine sitting and reading

42:50

in this thing with zero issue. Like,

42:52

I don't think that fuzziness of

42:55

text is going to cause me any problems because it

42:57

wasn't there. Like, and this is text of all different

42:59

sizes, like, there was also the messages

43:01

app where I could read the messages

43:04

and the text is smaller than it was and like

43:06

less purposefully visually clear,

43:08

you know, like it was like

43:10

white text on a kind of silvery background,

43:12

which is the UI of the apps

43:15

is kind of see through a little

43:17

bit, right? And it had that vibe to it. It's still incredibly

43:19

readable. In a minute, I'm going to talk

43:22

about the visual experiences,

43:24

watching videos and stuff. But

43:26

to me, the real standout of this

43:28

technology is just

43:31

how high quality

43:33

the imagery is.

43:35

They tell you it's 4k for each eye, and

43:37

I believe it. I've

43:39

never seen imagery, video,

43:42

photos, text, look this

43:44

good on any headset. And

43:48

it's as good as looking at a TV on a wall

43:50

to me, like it was mind

43:52

blowing how good the

43:54

imagery was. And so reading

43:57

text just doesn't feel like it's going

43:59

to be a

43:59

When they were talking about the size

44:02

of the pixels, there were a few, like, laugh

44:04

out loud with being impressed moments for me, and

44:07

that was one of the... I forget the exact number, but

44:09

they were like, oh, we're measuring it in microns or whatever for the

44:11

pixels. I was like, I cannot believe that

44:13

that's how small of a unit you're talking about for these pixels. So

44:16

they said a thing that, like, I didn't fully

44:18

understand, but they also said it to me afterwards, where,

44:21

like, they've put the screen on

44:23

the back of a chip. Oh, okay. Huh. Like,

44:26

they put the screen

44:28

on a piece of silicon.

44:30

And they have two of those. It's like, this

44:32

feels like way over my pay grade, but

44:35

it sounds incredible. But that would be to

44:37

reduce latency. And that's

44:39

what he said. You're a genius. He said it's

44:41

to reduce latency. It's why there isn't latency. Yeah,

44:44

it makes sense. The speed of light is very

44:46

fast, but if your time threshold

44:48

is extremely small, like with human perception, it turns

44:50

out it's just not fast enough. And so,

44:52

yeah, they would do that to get the physical

44:55

distance from the image being processed

44:57

to the image being displayed down

44:59

as much as possible.

45:00

I feel like that is another

45:02

one of these Apple manufacturing

45:05

their own things that really pays off.

45:08

Custom micro OLED display

45:10

systems. It's OLED, micro OLED

45:13

features 23 million pixels delivering

45:15

stunning resolution and colors, which

45:17

I agree with. And apparently it's on the back of

45:20

pieces of silicon. So that's how they do that.

45:22

And after the demo was done, I got

45:24

to sit down with someone from the product team and ask

45:26

them some questions. And I was talking

45:28

about this, about the screen

45:30

technology. And one of the things that they were telling

45:33

me was, and this is kind of what

45:35

I assumed, at the beginning of this

45:37

project, their goal was,

45:39

how do we remove motion

45:42

sickness? That was the goal. And like,

45:44

I always considered that this would be a goal

45:47

of theirs because if Apple wants

45:49

to make this a mass market product eventually,

45:52

they have to find a way to get rid of the motion

45:54

sickness, which is something that I think

45:56

more people feel in VR than they would

45:58

in a car, right? Like, I think more people were

46:01

hit by that because there is like just a latency

46:03

added into the world. And like, that's

46:05

what they were aiming for is to remove that

46:08

latency. And from a perception

46:10

level, it feels like they have removed

46:12

the latency. So I

46:14

think this is all contributing to why

46:17

everything looks so crisp and why everything

46:19

moves the way that you expect it to. Boy,

46:22

that's very interesting to hear. And

46:25

if I just take your description of it's as

46:27

good as reading text on a TV screen, like a

46:30

big high quality TV screen,

46:33

that makes me very happy. Again,

46:36

I'm watching this presentation while I

46:38

am sitting in a hotel room, which I

46:40

have brought my computer and my iPad

46:42

to try to do some work on this mobile

46:45

dual screen setup. And

46:47

all I can think of is like, goddamn,

46:50

if that text can look good, because that's what

46:52

my work is, just like moving words

46:55

all day. If the text

46:57

can be good, I would

46:59

pay anything to be able

47:02

to have like giant virtual

47:04

screens in a hotel remote

47:07

working situation. Like

47:09

I'd be thrilled with that. Whereas like the

47:11

current VR headsets, I wouldn't ever dream

47:14

of even thinking of taking them to

47:16

work on to do the same kind of thing. Because it's just,

47:19

it's unworkable immediately. It

47:21

just looks so bad. So boy,

47:24

that is a very exciting report, Mike.

47:27

That is a very exciting report. When

47:29

I was looking at Safari, there was an

47:31

image

47:32

of a mountain.

47:33

And I had the messages window open to the

47:35

right. And he was just like, just drag and drop that

47:37

image. And so I

47:40

looked at it, I tapped and

47:42

held, and I just looked at the message

47:44

window, like the compose window, and the message is

47:47

in there, like the image, it just took it with

47:49

my eyes. Drag and drop with my eyes.

47:52

It's crazy. Great. I

47:54

cannot impress enough. Like I feel like I

47:56

cannot do a good enough job to explain.

47:59

The eye. tracking is incredible.

48:03

It is transformational.

48:05

The quality of this, it's like multi-touch

48:07

all over again.

48:08

What they did with the

48:11

iPhone

48:12

to create this interaction model

48:14

of just use your fingers and just touch

48:16

it and like it all feels natural

48:19

immediately,

48:20

that's how this feels because

48:22

you want to do things where you're looking at them. That's

48:25

just how we work. If

48:27

you can't see something, you can't do anything to it.

48:29

You don't even know you want to because you can't see it.

48:32

This is just perfect in tracking

48:34

your eyes.

48:35

You just look at the thing and you tap

48:38

it or you look at the thing and you swipe it,

48:40

but you're already looking at it so it knows where you want

48:42

to be. It's incredible. Yeah. That's a

48:44

place where I can just imagine that the latency

48:46

is critical for that. If it doesn't

48:48

move right under your eyes,

48:51

it's just not good enough. It has to be immediate. That

48:54

was also one of these little mind blown

48:56

moments for me watching the presentation when they

48:58

talked about like, oh, we'll just have the click be

49:00

whatever you're looking at. I was like, as

49:03

soon as they said it, it seems like just

49:05

the

49:05

most obvious

49:07

interface model in the same

49:09

way with the phone. Like, oh, how do

49:11

you open these things? Just touch them. Just

49:13

touch them and it'll open. Like, of course. This

49:16

is the way you want to do it. You don't want to use buttons

49:18

to select a thing. I was

49:21

hugely impressed in the way where you

49:23

go. It's stunningly obvious

49:25

that this is the way that it should be done, but

49:28

also no one's done it this way before.

49:30

With a slight asterisk being the PlayStation

49:33

VR 2

49:33

has eye tracking in it and it is, I

49:36

think, one of the reasons that people who have used

49:38

that say it's very good.

49:40

Like, I haven't tried it, but now

49:43

hearing the way that people talk about it, like the good thing

49:45

about PSVR 2 is the hardware. The

49:47

unfortunate thing is there aren't a lot of games for it, but

49:49

they're using eye tracking and foveated

49:52

rendering too. Like, this is how I first

49:54

learned about foveated rendering. We checked

49:56

for a game console VR headset makes

49:58

a lot of sense. Like, if you want to make some something look lifelike,

50:01

only process what you need to at any one time. So

50:04

they're using some of this tech in something that's

50:06

shipping today. Obviously the

50:08

difference here is creating an operating

50:11

system using this technology, which

50:13

by the way, I haven't said the term, I like the

50:15

term spatial computing. That's what they keep

50:17

talking. This is a spatial computing device.

50:20

That's the idea. And that Vision

50:23

OS is the first spatial operating

50:25

system. So I like that

50:27

as a way to think about this era of

50:29

computing that we're moving into here. It's like,

50:32

it's all about physical space in the

50:34

real world and how your computer interacts

50:37

with that space. I want to talk about

50:39

FaceTime.

50:41

So

50:42

I did a FaceTime call

50:45

with somebody else inside of Apple

50:47

Park and they were using their persona,

50:50

which is, by the way, a word that I

50:52

don't like. I don't, I just don't

50:55

like it. It just feels strange to me. It's

50:57

like, anyway, but they were using a persona, which

50:59

is a 3D recreation of

51:02

their face. They were also using

51:04

a Vision Pro wherever they were. And

51:07

they were having the conversation with me via

51:10

FaceTime and they were kind of like this

51:13

floating head

51:15

and like above shoulders kind of thing, kind

51:17

of like a bust kind of. I

51:20

didn't like it

51:22

from a technical standpoint.

51:25

This is very impressive that you

51:27

could create and render in real

51:30

time a conversation from

51:32

someone. I think the reason I didn't

51:34

like it is because of how good it was

51:36

in a way. So like

51:39

I was talking to this person and it's like, okay,

51:41

I can see that you're a 3D rendering, but

51:44

your mood is like it's moving really well. But

51:46

then like all of a sudden,

51:48

one of our eyes moved in the wrong direction for a

51:50

second.

51:52

And that

51:53

broke it for me.

51:56

I'm not sure about this.

51:58

This feels like the most wamply- point O

52:00

of the whole thing where it's

52:02

like, maybe you can make this better

52:04

than it is. Like you can make it more

52:07

accurate. And maybe by, even by the time that they've

52:09

shipped this thing, it will be more accurate. It

52:11

didn't go far enough to feel completely

52:14

real. So I just kind of feel like, why

52:16

can't

52:17

we just use me emoji instead? And

52:19

I actually believe you probably can,

52:21

but they're just not showing that right now because it's not

52:23

technically impressive to show that right

52:26

way. Instead of using this 3d persona,

52:28

you could just be an emoji. I

52:30

spoke to a bunch of people who had this experience and

52:33

they did not come away from it the same as

52:35

I did. I do believe

52:37

that there was something weird going on

52:39

with this part of my presentation because we

52:41

also did collaboration with a freeform

52:43

board and the freeform

52:46

board did not load properly. I

52:48

think there may have been an internet connection issue

52:50

with this part of my demo. Like that is

52:52

my asterisk because we had to

52:55

like abandon this part of the demo because

52:57

there was like a 3d model that was supposed to load

53:00

and it didn't load. And

53:02

so like they were trying to vamp for time. It just didn't

53:04

load. So we just stopped that part. So

53:07

I'm wondering if some of the weirdness

53:09

that was occurring with the FaceTime

53:11

persona may have been due to some

53:13

kind of internet connection problem because I spoke

53:15

to three other people who were like, it

53:17

was much more lifelike than I was expecting. I

53:19

didn't get any weird jitters or face movements.

53:21

So I think something may have gone wrong for me,

53:24

but that was my experience and I wasn't

53:26

sold on that part going in and I'm definitely

53:28

wasn't sold on that part going out. So

53:31

my question here, because again, when we

53:33

talked on the past episode about doing

53:35

our meetings in VR, this was

53:38

one of the parts of the presentation that really drove

53:40

home for me. What Apple

53:43

is not trying to do. Apple

53:46

in many ways is trying to do so much

53:48

less because when we do our VR

53:50

meetings, we are embodied

53:53

in a completely virtual environment

53:56

with virtual bodies and we're

53:58

talking to each other. I was just

54:00

really aware of, or thinking about

54:02

how, oh, if we were to do our same

54:04

meetings a year from now using

54:07

Apple system, it would very

54:09

much obviously be much more

54:12

like a FaceTime call than it would be

54:14

like a VR environment. And I'm just,

54:16

I'm curious if you had any thoughts

54:19

on that or if that was sort of your

54:21

impression as well is that

54:24

you're in physical space in your actual

54:27

world, but some of the things that have made

54:29

those VR meetings really useful for us

54:31

is feeling like we're

54:34

embodied, we're instantiated in

54:36

a place together where we're sharing

54:38

space. And this system

54:41

is not attempting to do that in

54:43

any way. So I was just curious if you had

54:45

any thoughts about how that would be for

54:48

us in particular, like doing meetings and what the difference

54:50

would be between those systems. This is

54:52

about

54:54

where is the line drawn

54:56

for how it makes us feel that way. So

54:59

this was not like we weren't in

55:01

a shared environment together. I

55:03

was in my environment looking at the room that

55:05

I was in in AR and this person

55:08

was calling me and they were kind of in like a little window.

55:11

And I was able to move the window around

55:14

and using spatial audio, it

55:17

sounded like the person I was on the call with

55:19

was wherever I put them. So I

55:21

put her over on the left and then looked at something

55:23

over on the right. She was kind of talking from behind

55:25

me. So it had a sense of presence

55:28

more than a FaceTime call because it

55:31

sounded

55:32

like this person was there,

55:33

but just their head, you

55:36

know, like it's just like floating head.

55:37

Were there hand gestures?

55:39

Yeah, I could see the hands. If she raised her

55:41

hands, I could see the hands. But it was only if the

55:43

hands came into view of

55:45

that part of their body, like you have to

55:47

like the hands have to raise to high.

55:51

Right.

55:52

I expect that there will be

55:54

apps

55:56

where we could have that immersive

55:58

or in the same room experience like Apple.

55:59

not making that.

56:01

If meta doesn't bring Horizon workrooms

56:03

to this thing, then they're crazy. They should make a

56:05

version of this for the Vision Pro.

56:09

Understand where you are, meta. You

56:12

should be the platform, like A-platform

56:14

as well as a hardware thing. Make a version of

56:17

your app for this. You should do that. Whether

56:19

they will, I don't know. I think if they

56:21

don't, it's stubbornness or hubris, but

56:23

they should make a version for this thing.

56:26

But maybe that's a thing we'll talk about later on,

56:28

just so people could have those experiences too. Because

56:32

I think I could imagine

56:34

that we could have these calls

56:36

and it would be somewhere in between, like

56:38

a regular FaceTime and

56:41

a full-on VR meeting. It

56:44

kind of slots in the middle. And I'm not

56:46

sure where that sense of presence,

56:48

where that line is drawn, is it drawn

56:51

in between FaceTime and

56:54

Vision Pro FaceTime, or is it somewhere

56:56

between Vision Pro FaceTime and Horizon workrooms?

56:59

You know what I mean? Like, I'm not sure exactly

57:01

where the line of, all right,

57:04

we were doing this together, where that line

57:06

is drawn. Yeah, I think it's also

57:08

because in that episode that we did about the Facebook

57:10

system, I spent an unreasonable

57:13

amount of time complaining about the avatar

57:15

system. And I was like very curious

57:17

about how Apple was going to do it. And

57:20

watching the presentation, I had this feeling

57:22

of like, oh, I'm totally fine with this.

57:24

I have no problems with this. But I was trying

57:26

to think about

57:28

why. And that's when it dawned

57:30

on me to realize, oh, because the

57:32

difference is that in VR, I

57:35

am making an avatar that I

57:38

am physically instantiating

57:40

in that world. It's overlaid

57:44

on top of me. And in the Apple

57:46

system, it's more like, oh, I'm creating

57:48

some puppet of me. But

57:51

that is for you on your

57:53

FaceTime call. Like, I have nothing to do with

57:55

that. And I think that's why I just

57:58

like, oh, whatever, I don't really care at all.

57:59

about

58:01

this as a system, or all of my complaints

58:03

about the Facebook system, just, it didn't trigger

58:05

in my brain, because that

58:08

digital model of me is

58:10

not in my experience. It's

58:13

not in my world in the same

58:15

way that it is in VR. And

58:17

that's why I was realizing, like, it's a FaceTime

58:19

call with just the other person. I

58:22

presume that you don't have a little window where you

58:25

see your own puppet, right? You're just, you're

58:27

just doing whatever. Which would be like an update,

58:29

right? From FaceTime. Like, I think

58:31

seeing yourself on FaceTime is one of the things

58:33

that makes FaceTime tired and hard,

58:35

yeah. And I expect the person that I was

58:38

on the call with did not get a visual representation

58:40

of me. Like, I don't think that that was going on. Like,

58:42

I think they were just seeing nothing. Right, right. This

58:44

is technology where, like, I think my experience

58:47

of it was

58:48

not optimal, and I'm intrigued to see

58:50

where they go with it. It feels like

58:53

they'll post 1.0 part. They

58:55

probably have the most room for improvement

58:57

here, just because of, like, as the technology

59:00

gets better, as they learn more,

59:02

get more data, they can update this and make

59:04

it better. If they're able to pull it

59:06

off, maybe I'll be happy

59:08

with it. Right now, this is the biggest question

59:10

mark for me, of, like, what will

59:12

these calls actually be like with the personas?

59:15

Would it be better to just use an emoji?

59:18

Right now, I'm not sure.

59:20

The thing I was most impressed by out of

59:23

anything was

59:25

this section that they did about entertainment.

59:28

So I

59:30

watched a bunch of movies. I watched

59:32

a clip of Avatar 2, which

59:34

was in 3D, and it was the

59:36

3D movie, right? Which

59:39

was the best 3D movie experience I've ever

59:41

had, ever.

59:42

Because

59:44

what I don't like about 3D movies is you put the

59:46

glasses on and everything gets dim. Yeah,

59:49

it's all dark. This was bright

59:52

and crystal clear.

59:53

I will

59:54

never see a 3D movie in a cinema again when

59:57

I have one of these things, because this

59:59

is the best one. way to experience 3D

1:00:01

movie. I could have

1:00:03

the screen as big as I wanted. I also

1:00:06

made it look like I was in a cinema. They have the

1:00:08

whole cinema environment thing. So I could

1:00:11

tap on the environments part and

1:00:13

I was able to say select cinema and

1:00:15

it moved the screen back, made it

1:00:18

bigger, put the kind of like darkness

1:00:20

around and I was in a cinema. I could also

1:00:22

watch it from the top of a mountain if I wanted to,

1:00:24

but I wouldn't want to do that. So you know

1:00:27

you can turn it into this like full cinema

1:00:29

experience and just watch the movie like on a

1:00:31

big screen and it's fixed in place, you

1:00:33

know.

1:00:35

This

1:00:36

feels like a honestly a great

1:00:38

way to watch a movie. It was like

1:00:40

a huge screen, just so

1:00:44

precise, so clear, so bright, so detailed.

1:00:47

Like I could not believe how

1:00:49

good this

1:00:50

visual imagery was. Like

1:00:53

it was

1:00:54

Perfect. Man,

1:00:59

we were thinking about

1:01:01

getting a bigger TV for

1:01:03

our living room and now I'm wondering

1:01:06

like maybe we should just hold off on

1:01:08

that purchase until we see what this is like.

1:01:10

But the question is I only had it on for half an hour.

1:01:12

How would it feel to wear this for two and a half hours? I

1:01:15

don't know. And also you

1:01:17

would need to be plugged in.

1:01:20

The battery lasts for about two hours

1:01:23

so this is what I didn't mention of course right? I had the battery

1:01:25

pack. I was on battery so this

1:01:27

big battery is

1:01:29

bigger than I thought. It's like bigger than an iPhone

1:01:31

Pro Max. Oh wow okay that is really quite big.

1:01:34

And it's connected via a cable right and

1:01:37

you can if

1:01:39

you were sitting down and watching a movie or whatever

1:01:41

sitting at your desk you can plug a USB-C

1:01:43

cable into the battery and now you can

1:01:45

just sit and use it for as long as you want. So that's

1:01:47

probably what you would do on a movie right? But

1:01:50

if you were just on battery

1:01:52

you cannot hot-swap the batteries.

1:01:55

If you run out of battery power and you can't

1:01:57

plug in and

1:01:58

you have a second battery

1:01:59

you have to completely shut down the

1:02:02

headset,

1:02:03

change the battery,

1:02:05

turn the headset back on again.

1:02:07

Huh, okay. It

1:02:09

seems there is no internal battery

1:02:11

inside of the Vision Pro at all.

1:02:14

Can you run the USB-C cable just straight

1:02:16

into the headset without the battery in between? I

1:02:18

didn't see it and I don't think you can. And every

1:02:20

time they mentioned it, it was like you would plug it into

1:02:23

the battery and then the battery is

1:02:25

plugged into the headset. How did you feel about

1:02:27

it, having the cable? I didn't

1:02:29

notice the cable at all. Even when I was standing and walking

1:02:31

around, the cable is unnoticeable. Okay,

1:02:34

that's kind of what I figured. Because it's also coming

1:02:36

towards the back,

1:02:38

which is the best place for it to be. So you can kind of just drape

1:02:40

it behind you. And then the cable was quite long.

1:02:43

And they told me at one moment to like pick up the

1:02:45

battery and walk around. And

1:02:47

I kind of forgot I was even holding it. As I

1:02:49

remember back now, I knew I know I was holding

1:02:51

the battery, but I didn't really think about it because I was

1:02:54

doing this experience thing. This

1:02:56

is, to me, it's a non-issue that

1:02:59

the battery is external and that there's this

1:03:01

cable. But of course there is

1:03:03

like a thing that you always have to keep in mind about power.

1:03:07

This is not a device where you're not thinking about the charging.

1:03:10

But realistically, it's

1:03:13

as long battery life as

1:03:15

other high, like the Metacrest Pro is

1:03:17

like two hours the same, right? We spoke about that in

1:03:19

our episode about that. Yeah, yeah. It's

1:03:22

kind of the same experience. And two hours,

1:03:24

I feel like that's the right amount of time. Maybe

1:03:27

they would want it to stretch to three so you could

1:03:29

guarantee that you see a movie from start to finish.

1:03:32

But if I was

1:03:34

working in it, there's no way. I mean, I

1:03:36

run a bunch of timers. I take a break every

1:03:39

hour and a half anyway, right? So I would wanna

1:03:41

take it off and charge it up and whatever. So

1:03:43

I don't think

1:03:44

having it plugged into a USB-C cable is

1:03:47

a big deal, but I was just curious to see how it felt.

1:03:49

We then did something that they called Immersive

1:03:52

Video, Apple Immersive Video, which

1:03:54

was like a sizzle reel of different

1:03:56

things that they've shot with like a 180 degree camera.

1:04:01

This was so cool.

1:04:04

It was like

1:04:05

showing me a bunch of experiences.

1:04:07

There was, I was in a recording studio

1:04:10

of Alicia Keys and she was singing at me. Was

1:04:12

it a 3D video or just a panorama?

1:04:15

Panorama. Okay.

1:04:17

Then like it was using spatial audio. Like there was

1:04:19

some backing singers that started on the right and I

1:04:21

could turn and look at the backing singers and they were singing.

1:04:24

And it went to like outside environments.

1:04:27

You know, like I was watching somebody climb a mountain. I

1:04:29

was watching like these rhinos running

1:04:32

along. There were like people

1:04:34

dancing. I was

1:04:36

sitting above the

1:04:37

hoop at a basketball

1:04:40

game

1:04:40

and experiencing a slam dunk.

1:04:43

I was sitting like

1:04:44

right at the edge of the field of a baseball

1:04:47

match and watching like baseball game

1:04:49

and watching that happening. And like someone

1:04:51

like hit a ball and someone just missed the

1:04:54

catch. And like then I was above

1:04:56

the goal at a football match

1:04:58

and someone scores a goal and everyone goes, what,

1:05:01

this is so cool man. Like there was so

1:05:04

many of these little, it was just like

1:05:06

the scissor reel of all these different things. I was, oh,

1:05:08

I was on a tight rope watching

1:05:11

a tight rope walk out over a canyon, walking

1:05:13

towards me, like locked eyes

1:05:15

with me. And you can like move your head,

1:05:17

right? Like it's panoramic. So like you can just look

1:05:19

at any

1:05:20

part of this. This is the most, I

1:05:22

had an amazing dream part of your description

1:05:24

here, Mike Wright. It's like, I was doing this, but also

1:05:27

this. Because the difference here

1:05:29

was,

1:05:31

I've seen all this stuff before, right? I've seen

1:05:33

these videos before. Yeah. This

1:05:36

felt like way more

1:05:38

closer to me being there because the quality of

1:05:40

the image is so good. They, especially

1:05:43

the sports stuff. If they managed

1:05:46

to pull this off, if they can put these cameras

1:05:48

at sporting events,

1:05:50

oh, come on.

1:05:52

Like if you could actually be courtside

1:05:55

at a basketball game.

1:05:57

That would be amazing. Because Apple bought a

1:05:59

company.

1:05:59

years ago called NextVR.

1:06:02

This is what NextVR did. They

1:06:04

had VR cameras that they took to sporting

1:06:07

events. They bought that company for

1:06:09

the technology that they created,

1:06:11

and it felt like that's what

1:06:14

was capturing these sporting things was like the

1:06:16

NextVR technology. So

1:06:18

I hope that they're able to make this work. And,

1:06:21

you know, like they announced this, you know, Disney's

1:06:23

all on board, right? And so I expect like

1:06:26

using the power of ESPN, they will

1:06:28

make this stuff work for some sporting events.

1:06:31

But this feels like, yeah,

1:06:33

I would pay good money

1:06:35

to watch

1:06:37

Formula One this way. Oh, right.

1:06:39

Of course. Yes. Right. Put a camera

1:06:42

on a corner where I could watch the cars

1:06:44

go by, but could also look up and see a screen

1:06:47

so I can watch the rest of the race with

1:06:49

spatial audio of the cars driving

1:06:51

by me. Oh, man, I would pay good money for

1:06:54

that. That would be so sweet. This

1:06:56

was super, super cool. Like this

1:06:58

part of the presentation, like it did this all in

1:07:01

one block of like from Avatar to the

1:07:03

immersive video and then

1:07:05

into this 3D thing called Encounter Dinosaurs.

1:07:08

This was the part that blew me away the most because

1:07:10

it highlighted to me what they've

1:07:13

got that other people don't have, which is the

1:07:15

quality of the screens, the quality

1:07:17

of the speakers and the combination of

1:07:19

the picture perfect visuals and spatial

1:07:22

audio. Yes. Like

1:07:24

I've always thought of these devices as work

1:07:27

first and they all know that will still be a part

1:07:29

of it for me. But as an entertainment

1:07:31

device, this thing will blows everything

1:07:33

else out of the water. Like it

1:07:35

was next level. Like I could not

1:07:37

believe how good the video

1:07:40

was on this thing because they

1:07:43

are so far ahead,

1:07:45

so far ahead with how

1:07:48

the imagery was presented, which

1:07:51

then went into the final part

1:07:53

of the demo called Encounter Dinosaurs,

1:07:56

which is like an app that they've made. This

1:07:58

is the one where I've got a lot of stuff.

1:07:59

I selected the app and it came

1:08:02

up with text that said encounter dinosaurs and

1:08:04

the text moved back to right

1:08:06

where the wall was in This room and

1:08:08

there was where the shadow of the words was

1:08:10

on the wall And then

1:08:11

you press start and

1:08:14

the wall opens up

1:08:16

So like

1:08:17

it looked like the wall was opening

1:08:20

to this imagery Down

1:08:22

to the app kind of screen ended

1:08:25

right at the bottom of the wall before

1:08:27

the floor You know like the corner of where

1:08:29

that is where exactly where

1:08:32

the image was beginning

1:08:34

So it just looked like the wall opened up

1:08:37

and I could see this Kind of like

1:08:39

a lava rock area and

1:08:41

this butterfly flies out

1:08:43

It's flying around the room and like put

1:08:46

out your finger I put out my finger and this

1:08:48

butterfly flies in lands on my

1:08:50

finger Okay,

1:08:52

now they're just showing up yes And

1:08:55

I moved my finger around the butterfly was there and

1:08:57

I moved it too quickly and the butterfly flew away because

1:08:59

it got scared And

1:09:02

then I watched this tiny little dinosaur

1:09:05

Come out of the lava rock and they're like

1:09:08

Get up now and walk towards the screen

1:09:11

So I stand up and I walk towards and

1:09:13

I can hear in the far distance

1:09:16

the rumbling of something bigger

1:09:19

And it starts to move in this little

1:09:22

dinosaur runs away and I see this

1:09:24

bigger dinosaur coming in And

1:09:26

it walks towards me and is looking

1:09:28

at me and they're like

1:09:30

Just put out your hand And

1:09:33

so like I reach out my hand and this thing walks

1:09:36

through and it's now come out of the screen

1:09:39

And they're like just try and touch it and I reach towards

1:09:41

it

1:09:42

I tries to bite me and I like go

1:09:45

And I flinch and I asked them afterwards does everyone

1:09:47

flinch and they're like 100 percent of people

1:09:49

flinched at that moment Yeah,

1:09:52

how can you not and then i'm dealing with

1:09:54

this dinosaur in my space and

1:09:56

i'm like hesitant to like reaching

1:09:59

out to

1:09:59

try and touch it and it would like, you

1:10:02

know, like make that snorting sound at

1:10:04

me, you know, like, ah, and

1:10:06

I felt like I could

1:10:08

just

1:10:09

touch it.

1:10:10

This was one of

1:10:12

the great VR experiences

1:10:14

that I have had. This was

1:10:17

so reminiscent

1:10:19

to me experiencing for the first time

1:10:22

at Facebook all those years ago.

1:10:25

It was a, to me, like a defining

1:10:28

thing for a jump in this

1:10:30

technology

1:10:31

because the whole time I'm also

1:10:33

able to see the physical room that I'm in.

1:10:35

The screen was like a portal to the world

1:10:38

on the wall. But as I'm moving around,

1:10:41

I'm seeing a dinosaur, but I'm also seeing

1:10:43

the bookshelf behind

1:10:45

it. So like this was the blending of AR

1:10:47

and VR in a way that I've not experienced

1:10:49

before because, Gray, I don't think anyone

1:10:52

else can do it. I think they're able

1:10:54

to show off that like you feel like this

1:10:56

dinosaur is in the room with you because

1:10:58

it looks like the dinosaur is in the room

1:11:00

with you. We do not need to make you feel

1:11:02

like you're in this VR experience completely

1:11:05

immersed in this lava field because

1:11:07

we're able to show you this

1:11:10

blending of these two things. It

1:11:12

was unbelievable. The quality of the visuals

1:11:14

was so good. So so good.

1:11:17

Like it looked like a real dinosaur. I could

1:11:19

see the like texture of its skin.

1:11:22

I could look into its eyes

1:11:24

and it was also

1:11:27

encroaching on my living room

1:11:29

space.

1:11:30

This is one of those things.

1:11:32

I will remember that

1:11:35

feeling of that dinosaur biting

1:11:37

me or trying to bite me forever.

1:11:39

It was just

1:11:41

mind blowing.

1:11:46

And then they sit me down and they're like, we're done

1:11:48

now. And I take it off. And

1:11:51

I was

1:11:52

speechless. I was flabbergasted and like, and

1:11:55

then they take you out and they're like, okay, you can ask

1:11:57

questions to this person from the product team. And

1:11:59

I'm like, hi.

1:11:59

I have no questions. I'm not even in the

1:12:02

real world. To put this into perspective,

1:12:05

I realised halfway through the conversation, oh,

1:12:07

I left my backpack in that room because I just

1:12:09

stood up and I'm like, oh, OK,

1:12:12

I'm going now. Like I just completely

1:12:14

forgot about my bag. I just left it in there.

1:12:17

I was on another planet at that

1:12:19

moment. And I'm like, oh, I need to try and be like,

1:12:22

I need to be a professional here. I need to sound smart.

1:12:24

Like I was like half of the conversation.

1:12:26

I'm like, I'm sorry. I just can't

1:12:29

even

1:12:30

talk about what I've experienced.

1:12:33

And they're happy about that, of course.

1:12:35

Right. They want me to come out

1:12:37

of that being like, I don't even know what

1:12:39

to ask you right now because my brain is so

1:12:42

fried. But like in the right way, ending

1:12:46

on that dinosaur thing was like such a crescendo

1:12:48

to the experience. It showed

1:12:50

me how like, oh, they know what they're doing with these

1:12:53

experiences, these briefing kind

1:12:55

of things. Right. It was so

1:12:57

perfectly paced

1:12:59

to

1:13:00

start me off with like, hey, look, you're

1:13:02

looking at these apps in this world, you know, hey, you

1:13:05

know, apps, here's an apps, you know,

1:13:07

like, you know what photos are, you know

1:13:09

what Safari is. Oh, but what

1:13:11

about this 3D video? And oh, now a dinosaur

1:13:13

is going to try and bite your hand off. Like

1:13:16

it was magical. Like,

1:13:18

great. They've nailed it. Like this thing costs $3,500. If

1:13:22

they put out a card machine, I'd buy

1:13:24

it. I'm in. Like, I

1:13:26

cannot wait for this thing now. Like,

1:13:28

I'm now in this situation. I've had this incredible experience,

1:13:31

but I've now tasted the future. And

1:13:33

I can't shake it. Like,

1:13:37

I know I am biased by having had this

1:13:39

experience in that like my first

1:13:42

ever time going to see a keynote,

1:13:44

got to see this keynote and I got to experience this product.

1:13:48

I cannot shake the feeling that like this

1:13:50

might as well be 2007.

1:13:54

Mac world.

1:13:55

Here's the iPhone.

1:13:57

I feel like I have experienced something completely

1:13:59

different. people are going to make

1:14:01

types of apps

1:14:03

that have not existed before

1:14:05

because they have this technology.

1:14:07

There will be things that you can do with

1:14:09

this device

1:14:11

that you can't do on any other device.

1:14:14

And I

1:14:15

don't think we've had that really since

1:14:17

the iPhone in a compelling way.

1:14:20

Like the iPad, it was bigger

1:14:22

iPhone apps.

1:14:23

The Apple Watch, yeah, you could

1:14:25

do things and they're interesting, but they're not

1:14:29

a new paradigm.

1:14:30

Like

1:14:31

you could make an app that like, yeah,

1:14:33

you can have a text field,

1:14:37

but you could also create like a

1:14:39

cave.

1:14:40

You're in like a cave while you're writing. I

1:14:43

think announcing this at the BwDC makes so much sense

1:14:45

because

1:14:46

what Apple have done is they've built the basics.

1:14:49

And I think that's the smart thing here. I

1:14:51

don't feel like they tried to push

1:14:54

anyone, me,

1:14:56

any developer into any specific box

1:14:58

of like, this is what you should make for this thing. And

1:15:02

I've been speaking to developers. Apple's had a presentation

1:15:04

for developers and they've shown them like there

1:15:06

are multiple types of experiences you can make.

1:15:09

Like you can make something that basically just looks like

1:15:11

a floating app window, but you can also

1:15:13

freely make any type

1:15:15

of fully immersive experience that you want.

1:15:18

And

1:15:18

anywhere in between that,

1:15:21

like that's what you have available to you with

1:15:23

the toolset that they've provided. You

1:15:25

can make your text editor in

1:15:27

a window, but you can also make your text

1:15:29

editor with this whole VR environment around it. You

1:15:32

can create and make it fully immersive. I

1:15:34

feel like we're at the start of something

1:15:37

new.

1:15:38

And I just cannot

1:15:41

get over how incredibly

1:15:44

fortunate I feel

1:15:46

to have not just been here when it

1:15:48

was announced,

1:15:50

but to have also

1:15:51

been one of the

1:15:53

incredibly small amount of people in the world

1:15:55

that got to use it. I

1:15:58

feel like I've... worked

1:16:00

for 15 years to like try

1:16:02

and have an experience like this and the

1:16:06

experience that I have had is

1:16:08

just one of those things where I

1:16:12

Could never tell my past self

1:16:15

What this could have been like because there's just no

1:16:17

way that I could have believed it.

1:16:18

It's unbelievable