0:00

I am so eager to

0:02

know what your last

0:04

few days have been like with the Apple Vision

0:06

Pro. So

0:11

I went out, I got the headset, I

0:14

came back, set it all up and

0:16

started to work with it. And

0:19

you and I originally, because we have

0:22

both flown across an ocean to get

0:24

our hands on one of these things,

0:27

we were thinking like, ah, you know

0:29

what we'll do? We'll get our hands

0:31

on the headsets and just we'll immediately

0:33

record like a first impressions episode of

0:36

Cortex about the headsets. We're like, speed

0:38

is king. We will go for speed

0:40

above all else. Speed is the most

0:43

important thing for our once monthly podcast.

0:45

I just got to do this right

0:47

now. And I think

0:49

after like a couple of hours, I messaged

0:52

you and I was like, hey,

0:54

Mike, I just

0:56

don't know if I'm even

0:58

going to be able to record

1:00

our like fast hot take episode,

1:03

because I had this feeling of I just

1:06

cannot put into words what

1:08

my experience is right now. Yeah. And

1:12

you very graciously were like, yeah, yeah, it's

1:14

no problem. Like we can wait a couple

1:16

of days. I was in 100 percent agreement

1:18

for the same reason. Oh, OK. OK. I

1:20

wanted to move it because I felt like

1:22

I didn't know what to say yet with

1:24

like 24 hours or whatever. Since

1:27

then, like my experience has been

1:30

largely the same of like, this is

1:32

really hard to put into words. And

1:36

what has happened over the past couple of

1:38

days is that I

1:40

realized it was important

1:43

to come to America for this for

1:45

me, not just because it's

1:47

the only place on Earth where you can get your

1:49

hands on a headset, but because

1:52

I ended up combining this with a

1:54

trip to see my parents. And

1:56

so I have Also

1:58

had the experience. Of. Not.

2:01

Just me trying to feel like what is this

2:03

had said mean to me. But.

2:05

I've also been having the experience of

2:08

seeing my parents try the headsets. And.

2:10

Now my mom is like she

2:13

is that tippy top of the

2:15

tech enthusiasts pyramid like see his

2:17

way up there which is like

2:19

very interested in technology. She's about

2:21

as high of a power user

2:23

as you can get before you

2:26

reach the automation stage of our

2:28

sidebar. She did just make her

2:30

very first sort cut small on

2:32

her own without my help and

2:34

I like could not have been

2:36

prouder. If one could blitz shortcuts

2:38

on the refrigerator I would. Have

2:41

done it. I've others like the best of the

2:43

most amazing thing I was serious or different out

2:45

and have and I. Never

2:47

asked me for any helps you just

2:49

a side of the company to figure

2:51

out how to do this is like

2:53

ah mom that's amazing So so happy.

2:55

So that's where see as with computers

2:57

used. Very very interested. And then there's

2:59

my Dad who falls into the category

3:01

of normal person with computers. As in

3:03

the computer is a tool. He has

3:05

some things that he wants it to

3:07

do and it does the thing for

3:09

him. And he's. Not on the

3:12

enthusiasm spectrum. So. Between

3:14

that my father, my mom,

3:16

and me, we go from

3:18

just like normal user to

3:21

professional Vr person all within

3:23

the same household. That.

3:26

Really helps solidify what is going

3:28

on. Why is this hard to

3:30

talk about the when I had

3:32

my mom first Triads. It

3:35

just so happened that she

3:37

immediately stumbled into the How

3:39

Ya environments where she's on

3:41

top of a mountain in

3:43

Hawaii. And. Just. Finding

3:46

yourself they're somewhat unexpectedly after

3:48

just clicking a couple of

3:50

buttons. See. Found that

3:52

really. Shocking.

3:54

and emotionally moving as

3:56

a person who had

3:58

never been in that kind

4:01

of virtual environment before. And

4:04

it was really important

4:06

for me to see that because it

4:09

reminded me that unfortunately,

4:13

no one can be told what VR is. You

4:15

just have to see it for

4:18

yourself. And it

4:20

was particularly fascinating with her because

4:22

she has watched every

4:25

single video that Apple has

4:27

produced about this product. She

4:29

has been hearing me talk

4:31

for years about VR, but

4:33

absolutely none of that mattered

4:35

when she got to experience

4:37

something for the first time,

4:40

for herself, that left

4:42

her so stunned, she

4:44

needed the rest of the day

4:46

just to process that moment, as

4:49

was exactly my experience, the first time

4:52

I ever tried something like this, where

4:54

you just go, what

4:56

has happened? And so in putting

5:01

together like my thoughts for this show, I

5:04

realized there's just two conversations that

5:06

we can have. There's

5:09

a conversation about all of the technical

5:11

details. There's a conversation

5:13

about what works and what doesn't

5:15

work, the limitations and possibilities. But

5:19

all of that sort of

5:21

doesn't matter because there's an

5:23

experience and a conversation that

5:25

just fundamentally can't be put

5:27

into words. And

5:30

that's what really matters. So

5:32

that's like, ah, and it was really just

5:34

this morning that like walking around and trying

5:36

to think about us, like that's what this

5:39

is. My brain is

5:41

split between these two things, like

5:43

a ton of details that

5:45

I just keep feeling like, ooh, I should

5:48

be taking more notes on all of these

5:50

details. These are all of the details that

5:52

like we should be talking about. And

5:54

then there's another part of me which is going, I

5:57

Don't really care about any of those details. The

6:00

important parts of this experience or

6:02

just. So. Good and

6:04

work so perfectly and can

6:07

be so genuinely affecting that

6:09

it almost feels silly to

6:11

then talk about something like

6:13

let's discuss the resolution and

6:15

though that's how I've been

6:17

feeling for the past several

6:19

days. Yeah, and. I'm

6:22

obviously see where you're coming from, like

6:24

is to take in a slightly different

6:26

direction. This. Feels like of

6:28

Version One product? Yes, Yes, yeah. without

6:30

a shadow of it out yet. Feals

6:32

what it is right? It feels like

6:35

a Version One product. There are. Bugs.

6:39

That. And clearly ships their

6:41

of a weird interactions that

6:43

shipped. With the idea

6:45

that it will continue to get better, I

6:47

mean were. Like four months away

6:49

from probably seeing vision o S to

6:51

and whatever that's gonna be debated Btc

6:54

right to sit, lay around And right,

6:56

I didn't think of that. Yeah, yeah,

6:58

and this product feels like a better

7:00

version one to me than the Apple

7:02

Watch did. Because version one Apple Watch

7:04

was. Immediately.

7:06

You could see all the problems and

7:08

those problems are pretty fundamental, right? Like

7:11

it didn't have apps on the device

7:13

all of this day or and information

7:15

is coming from the I phone, It

7:17

was incredibly underpowered. Whether vision pro. Those.

7:20

Fundamental things seem to be taken

7:22

care of right? Like native applications

7:24

look what great. The. Operating

7:26

system is. Very well

7:29

architected. There is just like little

7:31

fringe parts of it that need

7:33

work. In. That

7:36

is very exciting to me that like the

7:38

first version of this is as good as

7:40

it is. Also.

7:42

The weirdness of it. The

7:45

interesting parts of it and the

7:47

overall. How good the experiences

7:49

is. The thing I can't I can't get

7:51

my head around it is. Equally

7:54

weird. Interesting. And

7:56

exciting that they even put it out.

7:59

This. Is. They are crazy product.

8:02

For twenty twenty for apple to make they

8:04

make the more you use it the more

8:06

you realize that of like. Oh.

8:08

You're just really going for it. Like

8:10

him. Really expensive. This is really

8:12

high end but in doing that means they

8:15

could do some really weird things like that's

8:17

the route that they took, like to really

8:19

wow you and impress you. But.

8:21

Then also you open up like the

8:24

environments Man you. To. Choose these

8:26

places you want to go. It's how you find

8:28

Holly Ucla. And there were two

8:30

of them. The to say coming soon as

8:32

like for example things like this is such

8:34

a weird a product but that is what's

8:37

exciting to me. like. They. Are

8:39

willing to. Put. This one

8:41

out there. See. Our it goes

8:43

and like that's what I want them to do. And.

8:45

It's what they've done. This. Is truly

8:48

one of the most interesting

8:50

things. The. I have

8:52

seen in my career. I am very

8:54

confident in saying that this is the

8:56

single most interesting technology purchase I have

8:59

ever made in my life ago I

9:01

use or interesting. For. A

9:03

reason it my world like things

9:05

divide into it's like it's interesting

9:08

or boring. but interesting doesn't always

9:10

mean good right figures can be

9:12

interesting for bad reasons. Yep, it's

9:14

the most interesting technology purchase I've

9:16

ever made. And. Partly

9:18

that is because it feels

9:21

like a thing from the

9:23

future and very many ways.

9:25

Iraq Seeing other people use

9:27

it's it is the most

9:29

futuristic ceiling thing to watch

9:31

somebody else use as a

9:33

small detail that screen on

9:35

the front when you are

9:37

using this in an environment

9:39

with multiple people. That.

9:41

screen on the front is real

9:44

t the fact that when my

9:46

father is watch eeg like the

9:48

virtual tour of a rhinoceros farm

9:51

and a key is having like

9:53

that experience and then from our

9:55

perspective were looking at this kind

9:58

of kaleidoscope moving lights on his

10:00

face while that's happening. It's

10:02

important that it's there, but it is also

10:04

so future feeling and like,

10:06

oh, this looks like something that should

10:09

be in a movie, the aesthetics of

10:11

it. But they're not just aesthetics. They're

10:13

actually practical and they're useful in that

10:15

environment. But that is the most 1.0

10:18

thing of the product, right? Yeah. That

10:20

is janky and it doesn't look as good

10:23

as they wanted it to look or even

10:25

that they're showing it to look. But the

10:27

idea is good. The eye believe that idea

10:29

is good. Seeing someone's eyes

10:31

when they are talking to you is

10:33

important when they're in one of

10:35

these products. But it just needs work.

10:37

But that doesn't matter because the idea is there.

10:40

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean. I

10:42

feel my brain split of I

10:44

can give you a long list of things of like,

10:46

oh, this eye stuff doesn't work great, right? But

10:49

at the same time, I feel like, but

10:51

it doesn't matter at all because it hits

10:53

the thing that it needs to, which is,

10:56

oh, I can know when someone's looking or

10:58

when they're not looking. Or I

11:00

feel like they're doing this on purpose that I

11:02

can tell when they're sort of half looking

11:05

like I swear it's like it seems like sometimes the

11:07

eyes are cloudy or when I can tell the person

11:09

is going through a menu. It's like, oh, they're not

11:11

they're like able to see me, but they're not actually

11:13

looking, looking at me. And again,

11:15

yeah, the fact that like it's obviously

11:17

not what was intended or

11:20

what was wanted from the original demos

11:23

is not really important. Like it never

11:25

really matters in that moment when I'm watching

11:27

somebody else use the product itself. It's

11:30

a bit like in the 1980s when

11:32

computers were first becoming home

11:35

use products, like individual families could

11:37

buy a computer. And

11:40

at the time, they were not

11:42

intended to be mass consumer devices.

11:44

They just couldn't be those

11:46

old computers would have felt both like

11:49

the same way, incredibly futuristic,

11:51

but also sort of weirdly

11:53

limited. Like I just imagine that

11:55

that's kind of An apt

11:58

comparison here.. I've

12:00

been hensley not wanted to watch or follow

12:02

like any of the reaction to this like

12:04

the moment I put in my pre purchase

12:06

I would like. I'm not gonna listen to

12:09

a single other person talk about the products

12:11

until I get my hands like a want

12:13

to form my own thoughts on this but

12:15

I'm willing to guess that a lot of

12:17

the conversation around this kind of. Implicitly.

12:20

Or explicitly is talking about it as though

12:22

it is like a consumer product or kind

12:24

of like thinking of it in those terms

12:26

and I just don't think that that makes

12:29

any sense as a way to judge it

12:31

in the same way that you would not

12:33

judge the first home computers of the nineteen

12:35

eighties as like mass consumer products like that's

12:37

not the purpose. Their server have a cell

12:39

phone and I think it's pretty balanced. I

12:41

think some people are good at it from

12:44

the perspective you're talking about, but really as

12:46

a kind of like a warning as such

12:48

like if you are expecting. This to be

12:50

yeah, I consume of it's not that right?

12:52

Okay and there are a lot of people

12:55

who are also talking similarly of like. This

12:58

is. The Future like even

13:00

Apple is. So just before it

13:02

went on sale, there was a

13:04

Vanity Fair article. Where. They spoke to

13:06

Tim cook and great just we. And

13:09

is the first time and Aapl executive

13:11

has been shown wearing it so that

13:13

I pictures of Tim wearing and one

13:15

of the things that just says is

13:17

it feels like we've reached into the

13:19

future and grab this product. You're putting

13:21

the future on your face select day

13:24

out knowing for that idea to write

13:26

that like this product. It's.

13:28

Not. Now. It's

13:30

what the future will be. But.

13:33

We have to start now to

13:35

achieve that. And. Like that as

13:37

felt that way. Since. We first

13:39

saw, it's felt that way since I first used

13:41

and I think it has. Given.

13:44

On that promise. In. Now

13:46

it's why to use and. The.

13:49

First couple of days on line you know it's

13:51

solid. The has alleges ah ha the good as

13:53

person on the subway where I'm on or I

13:56

kind of stuff that I feel like what I'm

13:58

seeing anyways like the conversation is shifting. More

14:00

towards. A general enthusiasm

14:02

for the product of what it can do

14:04

and that is how I'm feeling is in

14:07

general the I am and in a technology

14:09

enthusiast that's how I consider myself is how

14:11

I've always said to myself. This.

14:14

Product feels like it has the

14:16

most possible enthusiasm I could give.

14:18

something like that's what I want

14:20

for this product. Like I want

14:23

this to be encouraged, Like it

14:25

so promising and it's so interesting

14:27

in the right moments in it's

14:30

current form and I just hope

14:32

like. Weird expectations around.

14:34

I don't cause problems for it as

14:36

a product going forward by yeah it's

14:39

like ah, it's so interesting. So as

14:41

the person who originally got to try

14:43

it a while back. How's.

14:46

It been for you. Getting. Your

14:48

hands on one and being able

14:50

to like actually use it and

14:52

not as be walk through a

14:54

demo. My biggest concern. Is

14:57

that? My. Experience.

15:00

Was going to watch my. First.

15:03

Impression that like and having

15:05

this moment the I had.

15:08

Nine. Months ago. Was.

15:11

Going to have like. Become.

15:13

A legend. In my my

15:15

mecca for effort yea I know that

15:17

I would be underwhelmed. When. I

15:19

used it for the first time. But.

15:22

The actual great part of it is the

15:24

damn other I had was so sure and

15:26

it gave me a taste is so few

15:28

things. More has come

15:31

since. The I Ever had

15:33

lots of wonderful moments with this over the

15:35

last few days. And a

15:37

lot of that stuff that first was like

15:39

oh I remember this feeling. I remember what

15:41

the apps look like, I remember opening things.

15:44

I remember these gestures yes this is very

15:46

reminiscent. but then I was able to stop

15:48

playing around with some of the stuff that

15:50

new like a lot of the entertainment stealth.

15:53

Something I was really keen on

15:55

was. The. Disney Plaza

15:58

because. The. disney plus out there built

16:00

these environments that you can watch movies

16:02

in, full virtual environments. One

16:05

of them was Avengers Tower. So

16:09

I opened the Disney Plus app, I

16:11

went to the Avengers Tower environment, and

16:14

my mind was blown by it. I'm

16:17

sitting and looking around and they've put

16:19

all these Easter eggs of all these

16:21

different movies and there's weapons all over

16:23

the place and there's a big Hulkbuster

16:25

Iron Man suit standing right there. And

16:27

I was like, oh, this is

16:29

incredible. I was freaking out. It was fantastic.

16:33

And then I was like, all right, I want to

16:35

test what 3D movies look like in this thing. So

16:38

I opened up the catalog that

16:40

they have. I chose Avengers Endgame. It was like, take

16:42

me to the fight scene. And

16:44

I'm watching the whole fight scene play out.

16:47

And honestly, it sounds

16:49

so funny. It felt like a religious experience

16:51

for me. It was in... My

16:54

mind was blown. It's so funny. I'm sitting

16:56

in the hotel watching it. And my idea was filming me because

16:59

I am freaking out. How

17:02

incredibly detailed the environment looks,

17:04

how fantastic the 3D looks

17:07

with this huge screen and the spatial

17:09

audio stuff flying past my head. It

17:13

was in that moment I was like,

17:15

yes, this device has

17:17

all of the experience that

17:19

I felt in June. It's

17:23

all still out there. This

17:26

incredible fidelity and

17:29

the overall experience that they've created,

17:31

this very natural feeling interface, it

17:35

kind of bears out when

17:37

used at large. Similarly,

17:40

the incredible experiences that are available, there

17:42

are still more of them. And there

17:44

will continue to be more of them.

17:49

I've even been turned around on

17:51

one pretty important part that I want to

17:53

get to a little bit later on. My

17:55

experience of using the Vision

17:57

Pro for a few days, it's like, oh, yeah.

17:59

Oh yeah, this is like everything. I

18:01

remembered it being everything I hoped it would be within

18:05

like being realistic. I

18:08

really am like so

18:10

pleased and so excited that

18:13

it is what I wanted it to be. I

18:16

was worried about that same thing for you. I

18:18

was thinking like, because it's

18:20

easy to do the thing where you,

18:22

when you're remembering something, is to also

18:24

smooth over in your brain any problems

18:26

that there were and then to extrapolate

18:28

like the ability to do all of

18:30

these other things. So I genuinely

18:33

was thinking like, I wonder if Mike is just

18:35

disappointed in this as a product. So it's interesting

18:37

to hear that you still have that experience of

18:39

like, oh no, this is great. Cause I was

18:41

worried for you a little. But

18:44

I feel like I need to

18:47

know more about what

18:49

you have found, like what you have

18:51

enjoyed. Like why does this feel like

18:53

an interesting product to you? Like what

18:56

experiences or use cases have

18:58

you been through in the last few days where you're like,

19:00

oh yeah, this is good. I

19:03

guess one of the things I want to try to put into words

19:05

is that this feels to

19:07

me kind of like the platonic

19:09

ideal of what Apple does with

19:11

products where they do

19:13

products that are less but better at

19:16

the same time. Or they're just focusing

19:18

on a really narrow

19:20

aspect of things. And I

19:23

do feel like, ah, I was entirely

19:25

correct with my feeling when we were

19:27

watching the first videos of it that

19:29

like, they're doing a very

19:31

interesting thing here. The way

19:33

they're handling VR and AR is it's

19:37

actually a fairly limited

19:39

subset of things that they are attempting

19:41

to do. But

19:45

they're being really sure to

19:47

make those things work well.

19:50

Like at the time I described it this way, like

19:52

I can see why this is not exactly right but

19:54

I feel like the idea of it is still correct.

19:57

And it's like Apple is only trying to do a

19:59

thing which is put in the right place. putting rectangles

20:01

somewhere. Everything is a variation

20:03

on there's a rectangle that's floating in space.

20:06

Some of those rectangles contain 3D movies.

20:08

Some of those rectangles contain your computer

20:10

screens. Some of those rectangles contain widgets.

20:13

Some of those rectangles are a holly

20:15

ockola, but it's all different versions of

20:17

that as opposed to trying to create

20:19

an entire 3D environment around you. I

20:23

think it was just like it's a genius

20:25

simplification of what are we trying to do

20:28

with this, that again, most

20:30

people will just never even know or think about

20:32

because they've never had an experience in an environment

20:34

like this at all. That's

20:36

partly why I wanted to push back the

20:38

show and wait because in

20:41

some sense, in my initial reaction in some

20:43

way, it's like, ah, I can see all

20:45

the rectangles. I can totally see what they're

20:47

doing here. I

20:49

feel like my experience at the beginning was

20:52

a very comparative experience of like,

20:54

ah, this is like this other thing. Over

20:57

time, I sort of like let all that

21:00

go and just accepted like what are they

21:02

trying to do with this and how are

21:04

they trying to present things. Also,

21:08

what I said before, but things are sort of both

21:11

better and worse in some

21:13

ways. It's like, oh, the pass-through vision of

21:15

like you're looking at the world around you.

21:17

It's like, oh, the resolution there is like

21:19

not quite what I was thinking it might

21:21

be. It's like, oh, it's clearly like I'm

21:23

looking through a screen or like the way

21:26

that I'm thinking about it. It's like I'm

21:28

looking at the room that's around me and

21:30

it's a bit like I'm sort of wearing

21:32

very lightly tinted sunglasses that are like a

21:34

little smudgy is probably the way I would

21:36

actually describe it. It doesn't look like I'm

21:38

looking at the room, but

21:40

at the same time, the effect is just so

21:42

good. It doesn't really matter

21:45

and it's like a billion times better than

21:47

anything I've ever seen like this before. What

21:50

I found myself doing sometimes is quite

21:53

legitimately like, oh, I can really just leave

21:55

this headset on and I'm working in my

21:57

dad's office in this house and

21:59

I've been. playing with a headset in there and it's just

22:03

it really works. I was like oh okay

22:05

and I can get up from the desk,

22:07

I can go into the main kitchen, I

22:09

can make some coffee and talk to my

22:11

parents and interact with the dog and I

22:13

can do all of this while

22:16

wearing the headset and it feels

22:18

surprisingly natural. Like that's

22:20

the part that matters and I think

22:24

like it can't be understated what a crazy

22:26

achievement that is. Like I mean maybe I

22:28

should or I shouldn't have been surprised but

22:32

my parents have like a little back porch on the

22:34

house and at one

22:36

point my dad was out there reading and without

22:39

even really thinking about it like I just went

22:41

outside to see what he was up to and

22:43

I was like still wearing the headset and didn't

22:45

even think about it for a moment. Like oh

22:47

even outdoors in the sunshine like it was totally

22:49

fine and I could just interact with my dad

22:51

and then you know like come back inside the

22:53

house and then go back to my desk all

22:56

without ever taking it off. That

22:58

is unbelievable that that can work

23:00

and feel natural the entire time.

23:02

Like shocking, it's shocking

23:04

yeah. And that is like it's such a

23:07

great example of what we've been talking about

23:09

so far of like the fact

23:11

that they were able to get it

23:13

to be this good on a version

23:16

one is yeah truly remarkable of

23:18

an achievement that they were able to

23:20

get it to look as good as it does where to

23:23

me then this is another thing like this is

23:25

exactly how I remembered it looking and I think

23:27

I described it as the time is like what

23:29

it looks like is you're looking at like a

23:31

camera in low light. You can

23:33

see everything but it's a little grainy but

23:36

you can see everything it's fine like

23:38

in a way that I have not

23:40

experienced with any other headset right like

23:43

we're coming from our experiences with the

23:45

Quest Pro where like it

23:47

feels like I'm just tripping out wearing that

23:49

thing and trying to use pass through like

23:51

I can see but it's not comfortable like

23:54

I can see if I need to but it's

23:57

not like I'm gonna choose to wear it when

23:59

I'm not. in an environment of

24:01

some description or not in an app or

24:03

a game. But you can do that with

24:05

this. It is comfortable. I'll give

24:08

you a really good example that just happened. So I wanted

24:10

to do a test of watching a 3D

24:12

movie. So I was watching a movie in

24:14

the mountain environment. So you're on the snowy plains.

24:17

I think it's... And it's El Cap in front

24:19

of you. It's

24:21

like a nighttime environment. It's all dim and I'm watching

24:23

the movie. And the way that

24:25

the system works, which again works much better than I

24:28

would have expected. It's not perfect, but

24:30

when you raise your hand, you

24:32

see your actual hand in that

24:34

environment. But the effect

24:36

is more convincing when the lights are

24:39

lower. So if you're in this dim

24:41

3D environment in the headset, you

24:43

don't notice the artifacts on your hands. And

24:47

I had a weird moment of

24:50

being physically, kinesthetically confused for

24:52

a moment. At one point when I

24:54

was watching the movie and

24:56

sort of moved around and saw my own

24:58

hands, it's like I legitimately for

25:01

a moment couldn't tell, where

25:03

am I physically? Because it looked so real. It

25:06

was like a split second of like, no,

25:08

but I'm not actually watching a movie like in the

25:10

middle of this snow field with this mountain in front

25:12

of me. But it was enough

25:15

to trick my brain for a second into

25:17

just feeling like, oh no, I'm really there. Because

25:20

it was my own hand. Whereas

25:24

every other time in VR, I've always said like,

25:26

oh, your brain is willing to accept the reality

25:29

of this world. But that's

25:31

a very different feeling of like, oh, the sequence

25:33

of polygons is my hand. And my brain is

25:35

just cool with that. Like, yeah, yeah, that's your

25:37

hand, whatever. It was a

25:40

different feeling of physical

25:42

placement in my actual body in an

25:44

environment for a moment. And I just

25:46

like, I couldn't believe that that illusion

25:49

could even hold for a couple of seconds.

25:51

It was really like, I found it very

25:53

shocking that that happened. But again,

25:55

it just goes to like, they're

25:57

trying to do something different. And they're trying to...

26:00

to do something that feels very

26:02

natural and they totally

26:04

sold my brain. Like I was really

26:06

in that space in that moment for

26:08

the effect to work under ideal circumstances.

26:11

So I'm assuming then that this is

26:13

like pretty ideal for you

26:15

because my thought was the

26:17

thing that will sell you is

26:21

can you open obsidian in

26:23

an environment and feel like you're in

26:25

that environment because I know that that

26:28

is so key to you like for

26:30

things spoken about with and without this

26:32

headset of like going back to

26:35

spaceship you. Yeah, spaceship you right. Was

26:37

it star ship you which one was

26:39

it spaceship you like the idea of

26:43

tricking your brain in some way for

26:45

helping you do work and this

26:48

feels like the ultimate brain tricker

26:51

is that your experience. Okay, let's

26:53

dispel with these fluffy feelings for

26:56

a minute. Yeah, and let's answer

26:58

a real practical question. Can

27:01

Gray do work in

27:03

this headset? This episode

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Relay FM. Yes,

29:39

so I still have more fluffy things

29:41

to say about this but you have

29:44

zeroed in on the question

29:46

that I've been most

29:49

desperate to answer. It's

29:51

this question about the

29:54

headset has the ability to bring

29:56

in the screen of your computer

29:58

to work with. So

30:01

traveling to America, I brought my absolute

30:03

favorite computer ever, like this little MacBook

30:05

Air, and I wanted to see

30:08

like, okay, how does this computer in particular, like

30:10

the greatest one to travel with, work

30:12

with this headset? And so you

30:15

can pull the screen into any

30:17

of these virtual environments or not just

30:19

use it like sitting at my dad's

30:21

desk and just use

30:23

the keyboard and the mouse sort of

30:25

in this virtual space. Now, you're

30:28

asking a slightly different thing, which is

30:30

not entirely what I care about, which

30:33

is like, does it feel like I'm

30:35

using my computer on the moon? That

30:37

was not my primary concern. My

30:40

concern is about the actual

30:42

computer itself. Like how

30:44

does this look? Can

30:47

this be a, I was going to say

30:50

a second monitor, but that's not really true.

30:52

Can this be a single monitor to use?

30:55

And the answer is sort

30:58

of. So I've tried a

31:00

few different kinds of tasks using

31:02

my computer in this space. First

31:05

kind of task, spreadsheets. So

31:08

going through a bunch of spreadsheets, can I

31:10

have a gigantic screen in front of me

31:12

to work on like the biggest spreadsheet a

31:14

man has ever worked on on the moon?

31:17

No, the resolution is

31:19

just not really there. It's like

31:22

numbers are too hard. I feel like there's too many

31:24

things that look like too many others. If you want it

31:26

nice and big and to have lots of little rows,

31:29

like it's just not there. Have you

31:31

tried the numbers app on vision pro?

31:33

So I haven't tried the numbers app

31:35

on vision. Cause that would be

31:38

clearer. I understand why you're saying that, but it's

31:40

like, I'm needing to switch back and forth quickly

31:42

between like web browsers and the spreadsheets. It's like,

31:44

how am I actually going to use the thing?

31:46

I need to use it on the computer. I

31:48

think it's worth trying because you can have a

31:50

web browser and you can have numbers there. Like,

31:53

you know, I would be keen for you to try it

31:55

at least. Okay, actually let's do like a sidebar sidebar thing.

31:57

So also one of the things I did very quickly. quickly

32:00

after was like connecting my Bluetooth keyboard

32:02

to the headset. And I

32:04

was like, Oh, I'm going to use this keyboard

32:06

in this virtual space. So, okay. Funny thing. Number

32:09

one, there's no setting for keyboard

32:11

layout in the headset. So I can't

32:13

switch the keyboard over to Dvorak if

32:15

it's connected to the headset directly, which

32:17

if, listen, if anyone who's on the

32:19

development team is hearing me speak right

32:21

now, it was surprising that it wasn't

32:23

there, but it's like, of course it

32:25

wasn't there. You've got a hundred thousand

32:27

things to do before you worry about

32:30

settings on the vision pro is like bizarro land,

32:32

because it looks like the settings app, you

32:35

know, but stuff's in different places

32:37

and it's not all there. It's like,

32:39

it's very peculiar, but again, I obviously,

32:41

but it's like just a very strange

32:44

experience. It's very strange because yeah, the

32:46

way it looks sort of prompts you

32:48

to expect it to be like other

32:50

things, but it's nothing like other things.

32:53

So it's very confusing, but yes. I

32:55

may be the first and only human

32:57

on earth who's connected a Dvorak layout

32:59

keyboard to the headset directly. So like,

33:02

yeah, don't worry about it guys. Like

33:04

it's not a problem. I just thought it

33:06

was funny as a thing that would never have occurred to me. But

33:08

the other thing, which was a real like,

33:11

Oh wow moment. Like it just really felt

33:13

like this is obviously a different computing platform

33:16

is of course the headset has

33:18

no concept of like, I

33:20

need to command tab over to the

33:22

other app. It's like command

33:24

tab. Uh, what are you doing? I don't

33:27

know what you're talking about, buddy. Cause you're

33:29

going to physically arrange these screens in front

33:31

of you. That's what you're going to do.

33:34

There's no command tab. Just look at it.

33:36

Yeah. Just look at it. Yeah. A lot

33:38

of my friends have been complaining about the

33:40

no command tab, which is like not even

33:42

a thing I thought about. Cause it's like,

33:45

how would that even work? Like, how

33:47

would that work? It's going to like be throwing apps in

33:49

front of your face. Here's why

33:52

it felt that way for me. It

33:54

was a moment that made me realize command

33:57

tab has been such

33:59

a fundamental. way to

34:01

use computers for my entire

34:03

life. It was so jarring

34:06

that nothing happened when I press command

34:08

tab like I can't even express it.

34:10

I would bet they find something to

34:12

do for command tab like if you

34:14

do it maybe you can

34:16

have a central window and it cycles through them just

34:19

because I think that this is something that maybe it's

34:21

like we're not gonna do that this

34:23

is spatial computing you look where your windows are

34:25

but I expect they're gonna get lots of feedback

34:27

from people that this is something that to them

34:30

is pretty fundamental like spotlight is there

34:32

right like they kept spotlight and I

34:34

think just in general as

34:37

this progresses they will develop more

34:39

sophisticated window management tools like there

34:41

will be new things and maybe

34:43

what that keyboard command of command

34:46

tab does might be different to what you're

34:48

expecting it to do but it would do

34:50

something and I would not be surprised to

34:52

see them do that but it was not

34:55

a surprise to me at all that it

34:57

was not in there and I think

35:00

your reaction makes more sense also again

35:02

from the like limited development time perspective

35:05

I think it's the correct decision to not even try to

35:07

do something like command tab because it feels like hey let's

35:09

just go with what this thing is trying to

35:12

do spatial computing and force people to try to

35:14

work like this for a while and maybe we

35:16

find out like ways we prefer to do things

35:18

like don't try to do this like I

35:21

have a very clear vision in my head of

35:23

what I want to have happen when I press

35:25

command tab on that headset but it totally makes

35:27

sense to just not have that as a

35:29

thing so the reason I bring it

35:31

up though is because it does mean it's like okay

35:33

so yes you can put

35:36

windows anywhere that you want to

35:38

but I feel like that has

35:40

a very limited use

35:43

for me practically because I don't want to

35:45

be looking around a

35:47

bunch and this is

35:49

where the like the limitation with the

35:51

actual resolution matters because

35:54

it's like you're always doing this

35:56

trade-off between like size legibility smallness

35:58

more is in your field to view but

36:01

less legible. That's just a fundamental trade-off

36:03

that currently needs to happen. But it

36:05

was really cool for one of the

36:07

movies I was testing. It was interesting

36:09

and unique that I could do a

36:12

thing because for mindless work, I'm often

36:14

just playing a video in the background.

36:17

And on my computer, I have

36:19

to pick somewhere that, which corner

36:21

of the screen is this video

36:23

going to steal and render

36:26

useless while I'm doing this mindless work. It

36:29

was really cool to be able to

36:31

put that video screen instead above

36:33

my laptop screen. And

36:36

so, yeah, I've watched this video 100 times

36:38

before. I only just need it in my

36:40

peripheral vision. I don't need it to take

36:42

up any of the center space. So that

36:44

was kind of awesome to have the movie

36:47

above and angled down at me. I've liked to

36:49

just grab it and put it to the side

36:51

so I could just put a glance up at

36:53

it, but it's not even in my vision. And

36:55

then what I love is the spatial audio. It

36:57

sounds like it's over there, which is so cool

36:59

how they do that. I take

37:02

the thing and I put it up and to the

37:04

right and that's where it is. It just sounds like

37:06

it's up and to the right. I've

37:08

been enjoying that kind of stuff too. It's cool.

37:10

I absolutely loathe the spatial audio stuff. I never

37:12

want my audio to be spatial, but again, it's

37:14

fine, whatever. I do really hate that. I don't

37:16

want the audio to sound like it's over there.

37:18

I will never forget you and I, when I

37:20

went out for a walk in the park once,

37:22

did a phone call in the

37:25

very early days of spatial audio

37:27

and the audio effect was that

37:29

your voice was coming from my pocket

37:31

where my phone was. I was like, what the

37:33

hell is this? I hate this so much. It's

37:36

just a strange experience of early

37:38

buggier days of spatial audio. It's like, oh no,

37:40

we're going to make it sound like you've got

37:42

a mic in your pocket as you're doing this

37:44

phone call. No, I don't want that. But

37:46

everything feels like that to me with the spatial audio

37:49

stuff. Okay. So all of that is

37:51

just to say, spreadsheets is like

37:53

the highest density of legible characters per

37:55

square inch of screen that a person

37:57

is going to do. And

38:00

if you are working on a complicated spreadsheet, I

38:02

just think that the headset is not like, it's

38:04

just not gonna work for that, for the fundamental

38:06

size of the characters. Okay, so

38:09

next task down is something

38:11

like research

38:14

work for a video. Could

38:16

I do research work for a

38:18

video in the headset? This

38:21

hits the realm of like, it's

38:23

possible to do, but I

38:25

think for, again, like window management

38:27

reasons, I'm probably always still going

38:29

to want to do this on

38:32

the computer. Part of that

38:34

is simply like, oh, I'm dealing with a huge number

38:36

of things, and their keyboard management

38:38

of windows and tabs is critical. Like,

38:40

I need to be able to move

38:42

between places functionally, instantly, without having to

38:45

think about it. Like, the

38:47

look at a thing and press your fingers together

38:49

to type like, yes, that

38:51

is great, but it is not the same

38:54

thing as like, processing a

38:56

huge amount of information and going back

38:58

and forth between stuff very fast. Like,

39:01

again, right now, do I think that that

39:03

can work? I could do it, but

39:06

I think I would be doing that to

39:09

try to do it in the headset, not doing

39:11

it there because it's the optimal thing to do.

39:15

But this gets us to the last category,

39:17

which is, what if

39:19

I'm just writing a script? What

39:22

if I just open up Obsidian? I

39:25

put it in the neon

39:28

green writing mode, typewriter style.

39:30

Destroy a retina. That's

39:32

what looks the best. And if

39:34

I bump up the text size like, just a little

39:36

bit, does that work? And

39:39

I think that works. Is this using

39:41

the Mac? Yes, I've loaded the

39:43

Mac screen into the system,

39:45

so I'm mirroring my Mac, and

39:47

I'm just using the Obsidian app,

39:49

and I've got a script open.

39:52

You really should try, if you

39:54

haven't already, the Obsidian iPad app,

39:56

natively on the Vision Pro. I

39:59

don't want to open the can of... about what's the concert for

40:01

the music what I'm saying again not today the

40:04

thing about that is unlike so I recommend trying

40:06

to get that to work not

40:09

this conference me

40:12

I had just decided that I'm never going

40:14

to try that again I'm going to stick

40:16

with drop box goddamn you Mike

40:18

well so there is no drop box on

40:20

vision pro which is I know I know

40:23

angry about like I pay you a monthly

40:26

fee to have my files

40:28

everywhere you can just put the

40:30

iPad app on there and I can use

40:33

it in the files app I'm so mad

40:35

about this like a very

40:37

very upset the dropbox customer that they

40:39

have not even done the very basics

40:41

to make my subscribe anyway but the thing

40:43

is about once in about you know bumping up the

40:45

font size that it it look clear in the in

40:48

the iPad app so if one can make

40:50

it work I would recommend

40:52

the reason I'm talking about the computer screen is just

40:54

like me that's the most interesting thing because like the

40:57

computer means there's no friction

40:59

for any of your tools like dropbox right like

41:01

the activity like that that's why I'm just I've

41:04

been thinking of it like the Mac thing it's

41:06

like an escape yeah it's the escape hatch and

41:08

I want to know how well that works yeah

41:10

which is I'm so proud of them

41:13

that they did it right

41:15

because the vision Pro

41:18

is essentially an iPad vision

41:20

OS is based on another West that was signed

41:22

blog and they have built it out from there

41:24

and there was this funny thing of like this

41:26

is the like the multi-pad lifestyle this is it

41:28

because you got like yeah it's I've had in

41:30

front of you right is essentially what you've got

41:32

each one's running it's a window is like an

41:34

individual iPad app right like that's like the idea

41:36

it's definitely like it's like a take notes for

41:39

the show and then I often like to try

41:41

to compress them down and it's like whatever and

41:43

I tend to use a bunch of notes but

41:45

the only like real one note line that I

41:47

thought was like ah this is a thing is

41:49

it did dawn on me

41:51

like oh multi-pad lifestyle we were

41:53

like sad that that just didn't work out

41:55

in the way that we were thinking that

41:58

it would because a bunch of like I

42:00

think weird things happened with the iPad line for

42:02

a while and it was like in Linboland and

42:05

it did just pop into my head because I kept thinking

42:07

like boy this headset it

42:10

feels so much like an iPad without

42:12

looking at all like an iPad in

42:14

many ways and then it did

42:17

just pop into my head I was like

42:19

oh my god this is it this is

42:21

the multi-pad lifestyle like in a way that

42:23

we would never have thought like holy moly

42:25

like it came back around and it was

42:27

just very interesting to realize that with the

42:29

super important thing that we never are gonna

42:31

get with the iPad I feel like which is worse

42:33

comes to worth one of those apps is

42:36

your Mac yes and the

42:39

fact that they did the thing that

42:41

it has continuity

42:44

and universal control

42:46

that you can use your Mac's

42:49

keyboard and mouse and control every

42:51

window in like what

42:53

is truly one of the most

42:55

for me like magical computer experiences

42:57

that I've had like I cannot

42:59

fathom how they are doing it

43:01

right like how can I be

43:03

using my Mac a physical object

43:05

and I swipe right and it

43:07

goes to the window in my

43:09

vision pro that is to the

43:11

right of my head how on

43:13

earth do they know how to

43:15

do this like it's

43:18

like for me a round of applause

43:20

to the engineers who worked out that

43:22

problem because I just don't

43:24

know right like how on earth did

43:26

I know where all those windows

43:29

are I can move a

43:31

mouse between all it's truly

43:33

incredible that that works I'm

43:36

glad you had the same realization that it's

43:38

vindication man we got we got there

43:40

in the end like the idea of multiple

43:42

iPads like that idea of like iPad

43:44

apps but lots of them yeah

43:47

something I don't know it's going back to like the

43:49

beginning of the show we finally

43:51

gotten there yeah I'll also say it really

43:54

feels like vindication because we both took a

43:56

lot of flack from a ton of people

43:58

about like that That's the stupidest thing I've

44:00

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46:12

Listen, I understand why you're trying to get me

46:14

to use the iPad app on the Vision Pro.

46:16

I get it. They all look better. I just

46:18

wanted to do it with my

46:20

computer because I'm using Dropbox Inc and I also

46:23

didn't want to switch over. But I wanted to

46:25

do it with the computer so I could just

46:27

know like if I don't have to change everything

46:29

else how does this work and

46:32

I can

46:34

do the thing of like I can just stand

46:37

up. It's so weird to

46:39

look at the actual physical setup, right? Because it's like,

46:41

oh, I just need to stand up and put my

46:43

Bluetooth keyboard on a box facing

46:47

nothing. And

46:49

then in the Vision headset, I can see

46:52

the laptop screen and work on Obsidian

46:54

and write on a script. It's

46:56

like, boy, this works. Like this totally

46:58

works. And the next time I do

47:01

a gradation, I am going

47:03

to try it with taking the headset

47:06

and not trying to do the whole

47:08

thing. I'm like, oh, I gotta make sure

47:10

that I'm at a place where I can

47:12

build a Jenga tower out

47:14

of stuff so I can put my laptop at

47:16

the top and see the screen so I can

47:18

paste back and forth. It's like very

47:20

interesting to think like, no, I don't need

47:22

to do that. I don't have to

47:25

try to get more space, but

47:27

like the laptop and the iPad next to each

47:29

other balanced on top of all these things. It's

47:31

like, no, no, no. I just need a place

47:33

where I can put my keyboard at a comfortable

47:35

height and it can be on a shelf in

47:37

the room. And it's like it can just do

47:39

that. So I tested it out here and that

47:42

works. And this is why like this

47:45

also flows into the stuff that I said

47:47

before. Like there's so much that feels like,

47:49

oh, I can talk about all of these limitations.

47:52

The resolution needs to at least double. There's all

47:54

these things that I can want. But

47:56

at the same time, the possibility

47:59

of being... able to use

48:01

this on a work trip to write?

48:03

Unbelievable. Like that is the thing that

48:06

I hoped would be possible, and

48:08

it is, and I cannot

48:10

wait to try it out in an

48:12

extended environment to see how

48:15

does this really work over the space of

48:17

like being in a place for 10 days.

48:19

And even if at the end

48:21

of that I discover like, oh maybe

48:23

there's some reason why I decide I don't

48:25

want to do this, you

48:27

can still see like yes, but it

48:29

is coming, right? Maybe not this headset, but

48:31

maybe the next one. But like this

48:34

is now proof of concept

48:36

that you can do this

48:38

thing. And getting

48:40

back to what you were originally asking me, it

48:43

also means the physical environment

48:45

that you are in can be

48:47

less important because you can turn

48:49

that environment up and it's just

48:51

like I feel like I'm somewhere

48:53

else. The ability to stand

48:56

right in front of a

48:58

wall but not feel claustrophobic

49:00

because in your experience you're

49:02

looking through it at

49:04

Joshua Tree is amazing. When you're

49:06

talking about the resolution data need

49:08

to improve, do you mean of using

49:10

the Mac? I mean the

49:12

whole system. Yeah, I mean the whole system.

49:15

Yeah. Okay. Here's the thing,

49:17

I know I'm particularly sensitive to this and

49:21

for me when Apple did that thing a long

49:24

time ago now where they had like

49:26

the retina rollout, they were just like we're doubling

49:28

the resolution on all of our devices, that

49:31

to me was a really important

49:33

change that they made. Like I

49:35

value that so highly and

49:37

when I see even like big computer

49:40

screens that don't have retina resolution on

49:42

them, like I don't understand how people

49:44

can work on it. I just feel

49:46

like, oh that's terrible. So

49:48

I do feel like I'm

49:50

unusually resolution sensitive so

49:52

I feel like my opinion on this should not

49:55

be taken as like a general thing and I

49:57

also understand that we're talking 4k panels in each

50:00

eye. I want them to be 8k panels.

50:02

Boy, is that going to be a long

50:04

time coming. So I'm not expecting this as

50:07

like a, this has got to

50:09

be their top priority thing. I wouldn't be surprised

50:11

if it's a very, very long time before that

50:13

happens. But yeah, on my

50:15

own personal list

50:17

of things that I would want to

50:19

improve, the resolution is one of those

50:21

things. Yeah. That's just surprising

50:23

to me. I want a

50:25

higher resolution for the Mac screen so

50:27

that could be clearer than it is.

50:30

But for everything else, like I

50:32

don't feel it at all. But

50:35

this is everybody has their, as you said,

50:37

they have your own personal like sensitivities

50:39

to these things. But it was the thing

50:42

I was the most surprised about. It's like

50:44

it's the first headset where I

50:46

feel like I'm just looking at a computer

50:48

screen as opposed to looking

50:51

at a VR screen. Yeah. Because I feel

50:53

like I can just look at it and read

50:55

everything. And it's like to what looks to me

50:57

as crystal clear as opposed to a

51:00

bit muddy or whatever. I mean, I do

51:02

feel like part of my reasoning for that

51:04

is also like I can see like things

51:06

go blurry when I'm not looking at them.

51:08

I can see them doing the dynamic thing.

51:10

The foveated rendering. Yeah. The foveated rendering of

51:12

like you're looking here and we've just,

51:14

we like blurred the edges a little bit because we

51:16

don't have all the processor to do that. I feel

51:18

like that is a thing where they are being very,

51:20

very careful right now in how much of the screen

51:22

they are rendering at one time for like power and

51:25

battery. I would hope too that

51:27

that would change because I noticed this

51:29

the most when I'm looking at my Mac

51:31

screen more than anything else. Like the little

51:33

blurred edges that it presents where you're not

51:35

looking in that exact moment, but you can

51:37

kind of see out your peripherals and it's

51:39

more intense than how it is for

51:42

your actual eyes, right? Because it's what our

51:44

eyes do, but it's not that blurry. And

51:46

I would like to see that improved too.

51:49

But these are those things where it's like,

51:51

well, I know it will like I know

51:53

it will like that's what

51:55

makes this a version one like all of this stuff

51:58

should and will get better. What I'm

52:00

thinking about is when you just

52:02

press the little button on the headset to bring up

52:04

the grid of apps that you're going to pick from,

52:06

and you swipe back and

52:09

forth between those couple of screens, it

52:11

just looks so good. It

52:13

looks like you have these little

52:16

glass circles floating right in front

52:18

of your... I don't

52:20

know if they've spent more time on that, but I feel

52:22

like that is one of the most convincing and

52:25

natural effects in the whole of the headset

52:27

is just those icons coming up when you

52:29

are sitting in some space and moving back

52:32

and forth between them. I

52:34

have caught myself doing a behavior

52:36

that was the same behavior as

52:38

when I got my first iPhone

52:40

of being kind of hypnotized of

52:42

just sliding back and forth between

52:45

the two screens. I

52:47

did this when I got my iPhone

52:49

4 or whatever it was. I

52:51

would just slide back and forth

52:54

and go, God, it looks amazing.

52:56

I'm doing the same thing in the

52:58

headset. It just looks so good

53:00

just swiping back and forth between two

53:02

screens of apps. I think it's

53:04

an example of what it's capable of and

53:07

that as time goes on, more and

53:09

more apps and UI will take on

53:11

this quality. The

53:14

Messages app looks really good, but Notes

53:16

doesn't look as good. They're

53:18

just like different apps. They lend themselves

53:20

more to this effect. It's

53:23

like Notes, there's not really so much you could do about it.

53:25

It's white with black text. I really wish

53:27

there was a dark mode for apps. There isn't. That's

53:31

another one of these places where I went

53:33

straight into settings like, where's dark mode? The

53:35

thing that really got me about it is

53:37

it's funny that all of the environments have

53:40

a dark mode. I was like, oh, you

53:42

can go to White Sands and you can

53:44

say, I want it in dark mode for

53:46

the White Sands environment. It

53:49

just led me to think, of course there's

53:51

dark mode somewhere, but there is. I

53:54

was like, man, that is actually

53:56

high on my list of things that I really feel like

53:58

they need to do. like

54:00

they should do because boy, if

54:03

you are in a dark physical

54:06

space to open up a notes

54:08

app that is like the

54:10

size of a small house in front

54:12

of your face that is pure white

54:14

is that is a jarring experience. I

54:17

really feel like dark mode should be

54:19

the default on this device more than

54:21

any other device. Like develop things for

54:23

dark mode. Yeah, I was real surprised

54:26

at that. Well, I will never

54:28

use the notes app in this environment because

54:31

of that. Have you set up a persona?

54:33

Personas. Well, I

54:36

have set up a persona. I

54:40

took one look at that thing and I

54:42

thought, I will not subject anyone

54:44

to this. Hi.

54:48

I have been king of hot

54:50

takes with personas, right? Like I

54:52

have been so anti-persona. I

54:55

had such a bad experience and to me it seemed.

54:57

Oh yes, that is right. Yeah, you had a particularly

54:59

bad experience with it. It broke and I was like,

55:01

this is stupid. This isn't gonna work. I

55:04

set up my persona. I did it a bunch of times.

55:06

It was failing on me a little bit, but I got

55:08

it set up. And overall,

55:11

I got to say, I am

55:14

so impressed with what they have

55:16

done. It is an impressive technical demo. Yeah,

55:19

I will agree with that. The little amount

55:21

of work that you have to do to

55:23

generate something that in most cases looks, like

55:25

I have seen various

55:27

personas now, of course, my friends. I

55:30

have seen some people, it is like that is uncannily

55:33

good and some where it is like

55:35

what happened to your face, right? Like

55:37

it just differs person to person. My

55:39

persona looks just like me. Like it

55:41

looks to me like what I see

55:44

when I look in the mirror. I

55:47

have an unfortunate problem where when I talk my

55:49

mouth does not move. There

55:51

is an issue it seems with beards that

55:54

they are trying to work through because

55:56

when I'm talking, I don't think the

55:59

cameras can clearly. see my lips moving

56:02

because of my brush. I

56:05

have been told that that's the case. I

56:07

have submitted information to Apple through the feedback

56:09

system. This to me again is like

56:12

this is just a data problem. They

56:14

will get better about the detection and the

56:17

data. But I have spent over

56:19

the last few days quite a

56:21

bit of time doing persona FaceTime calls

56:23

with my friends who have fish and

56:25

pro headsets. And this

56:28

is maybe been one of the things I've been most

56:30

impressed with. Once

56:32

you get over the weird

56:34

part, once you are willing

56:36

to take a trip down into the

56:38

Valley of Uncanny, once you're in there

56:40

and you've accepted it, it feels

56:44

to me like

56:46

the perfect way to conduct

56:49

something like FaceTime in

56:51

this. You

56:53

don't see yourself fantastic. But

56:57

also, you don't have

56:59

to do anything for the call. If you don't

57:01

want to shower before that FaceTime call, you ain't

57:03

got to do it. If you don't want to

57:05

put makeup on or do your hair, you don't

57:08

have to because your persona is

57:10

locked to a moment in time. I've

57:14

spent time with Jason and

57:17

Steven and Federico and John and we're

57:19

just like, we're on

57:21

a FaceTime call and then eventually

57:23

we're just sitting there poking around, working away.

57:26

It feels like a very natural way

57:28

to kind of co-work because

57:32

it's just a person who's just there and you

57:34

can move them again wherever you want. And if

57:36

you like spatial audio, it sounds really great because

57:38

they're just kind of like moving around. And I

57:41

know Apple's working on like another version of

57:43

this called spatial personas, which I expect will

57:46

make this experience even better. Like I'm

57:49

actually quite impressed

57:51

and my expectations are so low,

57:53

it is way exceeded them. And

57:55

I do actually think there's something

57:57

to it. I really do. It's

58:00

going to get better. People will get more used to it. Some

58:03

apps will pop up. Like Zoom has a pretty

58:05

decent implementation of it right now where it puts

58:07

a different background behind you. So it's like you

58:11

can be on a Zoom call and it looks not

58:13

too bad. They've also said that they're working on a

58:17

person to person kind

58:19

of experience, basically similar to what we were

58:21

getting with Horizon. What, Grooms? Oh,

58:24

OK. It's like an embodied experience and some it's

58:26

a bit vague, but they're talking about the idea

58:28

of two personas being able to be in the

58:30

same place and talking to each other in a

58:32

space. Right. It's like a shared space. But it's

58:34

not just going to be them working on this.

58:36

So many people will. I'm really

58:38

impressed with it. I know that naturally,

58:40

I assume you wouldn't like it, right?

58:42

Because, of course, it's you

58:44

and everybody knows now you don't want to

58:46

be you. See our previous conversations

58:48

on this topic. Yeah. But I think that

58:50

some of the details of how they've done

58:53

it, I think they've knocked out of the

58:55

park. I'm very, very impressed with this. We'll

58:57

have to try to do our next Cortex

58:59

brand call on this. Yeah,

59:01

like I said, the persona, I took a look at it and I feel

59:03

like I guess for me, when I

59:05

think about the FaceTime calls that I'm doing, I just

59:07

don't have a scenario in which I

59:09

can imagine doing the call in

59:11

the headsets. Well, but except the

59:13

exact one you just mentioned, right? The next time

59:15

we have a call. Although, unfortunately, when I'm doing

59:17

these, I have a great time. Everyone talking to

59:19

me has a terrible time because it looks

59:22

like my mouth's been some shut or something. It's

59:24

very weird because you can see that my face

59:27

is moving like I'm talking, but my lips don't

59:29

move. It's very... Right. OK, so we'll hold off

59:31

on that then until they un-fill your mouth. But

59:36

yeah, so again, aside from you, I'm just

59:38

thinking of all the FaceTime calls that I

59:40

do. I just... I

59:42

do not have the use case for

59:45

this. So that's why I was like, I

59:47

just thought use this. I haven't done a single one of those calls

59:49

because it's like, it's just that this is never going to happen

59:51

for me. We may have

59:53

the case for me where this does

59:55

make sense. I do

59:57

still wonder about like... versus

1:00:00

just a call because there isn't that embodied experience

1:00:02

in this, but you know, we'll have to see how

1:00:04

it goes when we actually give it a shot. So

1:00:06

I agree. It's surprising

1:00:09

how much fidelity they get out of

1:00:11

just hold it in front of your

1:00:13

face and look left and look right

1:00:15

and smile, smile at the shield and

1:00:17

then, you know, raise your eyebrows or

1:00:19

whatever. Like it does look good. I'm

1:00:22

not going to use it for the calls that I'm on,

1:00:24

but it is impressive. It is impressive for sure. This

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1:03:18

So I have one more experience in

1:03:20

the headset that I just want to talk

1:03:22

about because with a

1:03:24

lot of these things, I feel like, oh,

1:03:27

I've had like some version of this to

1:03:29

try before. But one

1:03:31

thing that for me was just really

1:03:35

novel and was

1:03:38

really quite emotionally

1:03:40

shocking was watching

1:03:42

3D video for the

1:03:44

first time in the headsets. It

1:03:47

was, so I

1:03:49

opened up the Photos app to be like, oh, let me just check

1:03:51

this out. I'm just looking through things. And

1:03:53

Apple has their Memories feature with a

1:03:55

like put together little collection of photographs

1:03:58

for you. And

1:04:01

because you're in this headset,

1:04:03

like you're in an environment, and if you've turned

1:04:06

the dial all the way up, you've kind of

1:04:08

like isolated yourself from the outside world. It's

1:04:10

very quiet on the moon. It's very

1:04:13

reflective in this environment.

1:04:16

Even just regular

1:04:18

photos, it's almost too

1:04:22

emotionally powerful in this

1:04:24

setting. That was

1:04:27

very surprising. It was almost too

1:04:29

much to click on a thing about

1:04:32

like fun times in Hawaii, right?

1:04:34

And like, then it plays you the videos

1:04:36

and you're like watching these photographs. And

1:04:38

then I remembered, oh, I

1:04:41

shot a, I shot one test

1:04:43

3d video

1:04:46

to remember to have for this moment. I

1:04:48

was like completely forgotten about this feature in

1:04:50

like the excitement of everything else that was

1:04:52

going on. So I click over to the

1:04:54

tab of like the spatial

1:04:57

video. And

1:04:59

so this past Christmas, what I will describe as

1:05:02

the dog who moved in with us, and just

1:05:04

like basically lives with us now, my favorite. He

1:05:06

was with us. Yes,

1:05:08

your favorite. He was there for

1:05:10

Christmas and we had a guest dog in the

1:05:13

house who's much bigger. And as always

1:05:15

delightfully happens with dogs, they love to

1:05:17

steal each other's bones. And so you

1:05:19

have this little dog runs off and

1:05:22

like steals the big boy bone and

1:05:24

he drags it off literally in front

1:05:26

of the hearth to like happily chew

1:05:28

on this bone. And I was like, Oh, this

1:05:30

is like a perfect moment to take a test video. Cause

1:05:32

I thought like, Oh, we've got the objects. Like he's

1:05:35

got the bone, which is in the foreground and

1:05:37

he's in front of the fireplace and it's in

1:05:39

the background. It's like, okay, I'm just going to

1:05:41

record a little test video of him chewing on

1:05:44

this bone. And now of course a video

1:05:46

like this has everything working for it, right?

1:05:48

It's like a cute animal. It's

1:05:50

Christmas, right? But like

1:05:54

it was just too

1:05:57

emotionally powerful watching.

1:06:00

this for the first time, the

1:06:02

most simple video, it

1:06:05

caused such a feeling of what I can

1:06:07

only describe as like anticipatory

1:06:10

melancholy that like I just like I

1:06:12

couldn't even this is just too

1:06:15

much in biology you talk about things as

1:06:17

like a like a super stimulus to me

1:06:19

it's like the perfect example of just sure

1:06:23

I could easily talk to you about how

1:06:26

oh obviously the frame rate is low

1:06:29

on this thing and the detail isn't

1:06:31

great and the 3d separation isn't perfect

1:06:33

and they're having to cheat at the

1:06:35

edges with a bunch of fuzzing of

1:06:37

the effect I could talk about all

1:06:40

of like the reasons that this is

1:06:42

not technically perfect but

1:06:44

absolutely none of

1:06:46

them matter for the

1:06:48

emotional experience that this

1:06:51

could convey and I can

1:06:53

now completely understand some of the comments

1:06:56

that I've heard from other people where

1:06:58

they said they watched like a like a demo of

1:07:00

some of these spatial videos somebody

1:07:02

else's family in spatial video and

1:07:04

being overwhelmed with a feeling that

1:07:07

they were watching something that's too

1:07:09

private like I shouldn't be watching

1:07:11

this video or like this like

1:07:13

put a memory in my head

1:07:15

that's not mine so like this

1:07:18

feature is shocking like

1:07:20

just shockingly good shocking

1:07:23

to experience and just

1:07:26

very very powerful like it

1:07:29

takes photos and videos and

1:07:31

just turns it up

1:07:34

even more and might

1:07:36

even just turn it up too much

1:07:38

yeah I agree like I

1:07:40

took some spatial videos when we were on vacation

1:07:42

I have a friend who works at Apple and

1:07:44

they were like you should do this to get

1:07:46

ready and I was like okay I'll give it

1:07:48

a go so we were going away and I

1:07:50

took a bunch and what I kind of learned

1:07:52

for me is they're much nicer if you're stationary

1:07:55

if you're moving it doesn't look very good right

1:07:57

now so like that would be my tip to

1:07:59

be. people. But to be

1:08:02

honest, the biggest experience that I had

1:08:04

emotionally was just looking at standard photos.

1:08:06

They just scroll through the

1:08:08

photo library and yeah the

1:08:11

sense of nostalgia that it gave

1:08:13

to me is not like anything

1:08:15

I've experienced before and these were

1:08:17

photos I had taken in the

1:08:19

last four days and I'm

1:08:22

looking at them and I'm like that was such a

1:08:24

good meal we had. You know huge

1:08:28

images and it dims the background and

1:08:30

it creates this like really warm feeling

1:08:33

and the photos from an iPhone

1:08:35

just look fantastic at that size.

1:08:37

I don't really know how, right?

1:08:39

Like this photo that's probably 20

1:08:43

feet large or whatever like I'm just I was like laying

1:08:45

back on the sofa and looking up at it at the

1:08:47

ceiling and just like scrolling through them

1:08:49

I was like oh this is so wonderful like this

1:08:52

is not a reason to get one but

1:08:54

all of these things like all of the

1:08:56

reasons in which you would and like this

1:08:58

is another of like as a photo and

1:09:00

video viewing experience it's unbeatable. It

1:09:03

is not possible to view

1:09:07

and experience photos

1:09:10

and memories in a more

1:09:12

intense setting than this. I

1:09:15

feel like even with the

1:09:17

additional days that we gave

1:09:19

it's still not enough like

1:09:21

I look

1:09:23

like I completely agree. I had to stop myself

1:09:26

from messaging you again where I was like I

1:09:28

don't know man should we do like I'm glad

1:09:30

that we didn't it's the right decision to not

1:09:32

like I cut myself off from that but I

1:09:34

did have this feeling of like I still want

1:09:37

more time to process this to really really feel

1:09:39

it. There is an amount of time that we

1:09:41

could have given that really realistically would have changed

1:09:43

this like situation I'm

1:09:45

having to face for

1:09:48

my work in general right like I

1:09:50

recorded upgrade yesterday I record connected tomorrow

1:09:52

and it's the same problem each time

1:09:54

like me and Jason were

1:09:57

talking over the weekend and he

1:09:59

was like I don't know man, I just

1:10:01

don't know if I can do it yet. He's like,

1:10:03

at least we'll be informed by you and Grey talking.

1:10:05

And I was like, nope, we moved it. He's like,

1:10:07

ah. We were just struggling.

1:10:09

I'm like, how do we approach

1:10:11

this? It's so massive. And this

1:10:13

seemed to be a thing for

1:10:16

everyone that's had one of these,

1:10:18

people that had them for reviews,

1:10:21

from getting them from embargoes of Apple.

1:10:23

You've been seeing it. And a lot

1:10:25

of creators are producing multiple videos because

1:10:27

it's too much to talk about all

1:10:29

at once. And it's a slower, more

1:10:31

gradual thing. I've not used this at

1:10:33

home. My entire experience has been followed

1:10:35

by the idea of being in a

1:10:37

hotel room, which has 100% made it

1:10:39

better. I

1:10:42

don't want to be sitting and working,

1:10:44

looking down at my laptop, my 13-inch

1:10:46

laptop screen. I'm able to

1:10:48

instead have a 30-inch screen for my Mac

1:10:51

and then a bunch of windows all around.

1:10:53

So my experience is colored by that, which

1:10:55

is positive, way more positive,

1:10:57

maybe, than if I was at home,

1:10:59

where I don't need to

1:11:02

use the Vision Pro to get a bigger

1:11:04

screen for my Mac because I just have one

1:11:06

at my studio. So all of this

1:11:08

is just a longer period

1:11:10

of time. This isn't like, all

1:11:13

right, got a new iPhone. It does this, it does that,

1:11:15

it does this. This is what we think about

1:11:17

it. Because with that, so much context.

1:11:19

And how do you use an iPhone? It's

1:11:21

not a thing I need to explain to

1:11:24

you. What does

1:11:26

it look like to look at the Slack app

1:11:28

on my phone? You know, I

1:11:30

don't need to tell you that. Where I can

1:11:32

tell you, for example, looking at the Slack app

1:11:34

on Vision Pro is really good. And also it

1:11:36

has this button, if it's an iPad app, where

1:11:39

you can change it to be landscape or portrait,

1:11:41

depending, these are little details that it's just gonna

1:11:43

take a much longer

1:11:45

period of time to tease this stuff

1:11:47

out. And it's not like every

1:11:50

episode of every show I'm gonna do for

1:11:52

the next three months will just be like

1:11:54

continually reviewing the product. But we'll just keep

1:11:56

touching back up on it. And I mean,

1:11:59

while we... recording today a friend text me

1:12:01

said vision OS 1.1 is

1:12:03

in beta now which I'm happy about they

1:12:06

are pushing it forward I'm actually very pleased

1:12:08

about this like they're gonna start fixing and

1:12:10

improving stuff because there's like a bunch of

1:12:12

weird stuff like the keyboard the software keyboard

1:12:14

which is bad

1:12:17

but okay like it does the job

1:12:19

for simple simple things but every time

1:12:21

I use it it pops

1:12:24

up in front of the text box that I need

1:12:26

to see like that's not right is it like these

1:12:28

are the things that just they're gonna like

1:12:31

that's gonna get ironed out we're gonna have more

1:12:33

experiences with it this is gonna

1:12:35

be a thing that we'll be touching on forever

1:12:38

now this is just part of it now this is

1:12:40

just part of the computer experience for us but

1:12:43

it's gonna take a longer period of

1:12:45

time to continually form our

1:12:48

thoughts on it because it is so

1:12:50

massive this is the most sensory overload

1:12:52

I've ever experienced with a computer before

1:12:54

where I'm like oh I want to

1:12:57

do this thing and I always get

1:12:59

distracted it's similar to you like I want to check

1:13:01

out that app I downloaded and I open the app picker

1:13:03

and then I just scroll for a second and I'm looking

1:13:05

at them like I don't want looks and then I do

1:13:07

something else like this is in

1:13:09

my life for the last four days I

1:13:12

just can't settle yet it's all

1:13:14

too new too overwhelming but

1:13:17

then also just the context of this not

1:13:20

even the device itself the pure context of

1:13:22

what it means to have a

1:13:24

computer like this that does the things it does

1:13:27

is new in the way they

1:13:29

are doing it like it has experiences right if

1:13:31

you want to do a facetime call and like

1:13:33

you have like a persona call like you would

1:13:35

a Horizon worker thing you can do that you

1:13:37

want to play some games there's some games they're

1:13:39

not that great but there's some games like there

1:13:41

are things you know but this

1:13:44

idea of spatial computing

1:13:46

is a new concept in the way that

1:13:49

they are doing it and I still have

1:13:52

not set on

1:13:55

it yet and it's just gonna take longer

1:13:57

than a week