0:00

I feel like a task voyeur. Oh yeah?

0:02

Who are you voying on? You? Well...

0:04

I don't know if I like that,

0:06

Mike. Yeah, I'm in the Asana now.

0:08

Okay. Obviously, I'm only seeing the tasks

0:10

that I should see, which is good.

0:12

I wouldn't want to see what's going

0:14

on everywhere else. I mean, wouldn't you

0:16

want to see though? Or aren't you

0:18

curious, yes, but also I know it

0:20

would be like horrifying, kind of like

0:22

Ark of the covenant kind of opening

0:24

opening kind of opening. feeling is what

0:26

I imagine would happen. But I don't

0:28

know why it's weird to me, but

0:30

just seeing how somebody else adds

0:32

a task and like what they put on

0:35

that task, it's just a weird thing

0:37

because I don't share like to do

0:39

tasks with anybody. And so now being

0:41

in our shared assana and seeing the

0:44

way that you like the tasks that

0:46

you create, which tasks have due dates.

0:48

which tasks are assigned of other people.

0:50

It's just a fascinating thing to see,

0:53

and I am also terrified of it.

0:55

Like, I don't want to put anything

0:57

in there. It's a very intimidating place

1:00

to be. I don't mean to intimidate

1:02

you, Mike. It's not you. You know,

1:04

I've never used Asana, so I don't

1:06

yet understand. how to deal with it,

1:09

you know? Okay, well, so let me

1:11

actually, this is a good time, let

1:13

me try to shortcut you on a

1:15

little bit of some of the things

1:17

that I have been figuring

1:19

out about Asana, having spent

1:22

basically the last week has

1:24

been a really intense gray

1:26

industries kind of reorg clean

1:28

up doing everything and like

1:30

getting it all over into

1:32

Asana, which is one of

1:34

those things where Boy, oh boy,

1:36

has it made me realize this

1:39

was way overdue because the number

1:41

of projects and the number of

1:43

areas of responsibility that I was

1:45

trying to track in like different

1:47

ways or across people was just

1:49

so much that like bringing it

1:51

all into one place has really

1:53

made me like face the scope

1:55

and size of like all of

1:57

the things that need to happen.

2:00

it's been a real crash course in

2:02

the move, but I could not be

2:04

happier, but also I kind of wish

2:06

I could have convinced me of two

2:09

years ago maybe to get started on

2:11

this, but the best time to plant

2:13

an Asana is two years ago and

2:15

the second best time is now? I

2:18

mean, it's always these things that you've

2:20

got to go through the fire, you

2:22

know, and if you don't, then you're

2:24

just not going to do it. Okay,

2:26

to have a tangent here. I think

2:29

the investors are bringing to the table

2:31

in many ways is, oh, they've seen

2:33

companies go through the transitions as they

2:35

get bigger, and so they can act

2:38

as kind of guides to try to

2:40

make the changes before they're necessary. Yes,

2:42

I have a very good friend who

2:44

is a VC, and one of the

2:47

things that I've learned in the many

2:49

conversations I've had with him is it

2:51

seems like a lot of what a

2:53

good... investor will do. It's providing you

2:55

with structure, support, and paths to follow

2:58

that a startup needs if they're going

3:00

to grow into a real thing. There's

3:02

a way in which when I'd heard

3:04

this in the past I always thought

3:07

that was kind of this sort of

3:09

person over-selling themselves, but I just don't

3:11

think that that's true anymore now, having

3:13

done just like the teeny tiny version

3:15

of having a thing that's gotten bigger

3:18

and more complicated over time. someone else

3:20

could have shown me five years ago

3:22

like hey you should do this now

3:24

this is clearly the way that it's

3:27

heading and this would like make a

3:29

big difference so it's funny actually I

3:31

just had something like this come up

3:33

like yesterday I was thinking to myself,

3:36

like I wanted to let you know

3:38

how many outstanding invoices we had to

3:40

pay over the next couple of months

3:42

for product stuff. And I was thinking

3:44

as like having to rack my brain

3:47

of like, oh, so which one? Where

3:49

is it? You know, really having to

3:51

think about it, like which invoices have

3:53

we got, which products are coming up?

3:56

And I realized we need a system

3:58

to raise purchase orders within our own

4:00

company. So at any time we can

4:02

understand how... much money is committed to

4:04

invoices that have not yet been sent

4:07

to us, you know, like we've half

4:09

made for something. I don't know why

4:11

this has happened to me more with

4:13

Cortex brand than Relay. I think maybe

4:16

just in the like what the businesses

4:18

do and how they function. Cortex is

4:20

more like a regular business where Relay

4:22

is a little bit more irregular I

4:25

think in the way that it functions.

4:27

I think it's the very fact that

4:29

we have inventory. thing for any of

4:31

these projects. Like you're going along and

4:33

everything is fine. Like we started with

4:36

the theme system journal and then we

4:38

like add the subtle notebook. We add

4:40

like one product at a time and

4:42

I'm only just realizing now of course

4:45

until this moment we've been basically mentally

4:47

tracking. Oh yeah we've got to pay

4:49

for the journals. Oh yeah we've got

4:51

to pay for the sidekick like we've

4:53

just been kind of knowing that that's

4:56

coming. But there's like the multiplication in

4:58

complexity, right? Keeping track of three projects

5:00

is like six times more complicated than

5:02

keeping track of two. And like that's

5:05

what happens where you add like one

5:07

more thing and suddenly you go, whoa,

5:09

this is like way over the line

5:11

of being able to keep track of.

5:14

So yes, let's do that. So it's

5:16

very funny. to be in this position

5:18

where the things that I used to

5:20

hate dealing with when I worked in

5:22

my corporate job like raising purchase orders

5:25

and dealing with invoices I now understand

5:27

all my companies do these things because

5:29

if there is money to be spent

5:32

on something you've got to only spend

5:34

the amount that can be spent and

5:36

whatever has to be paid later on

5:38

has to be put aside like you

5:41

can't just wing it. It's very funny

5:43

to me, to kind of just be

5:45

fumbling my way through and bouncing into

5:47

these just very common things. I am

5:50

very aware that to many of our

5:52

listeners, when I say this stuff, they

5:54

just are head in hands. But I

5:56

actually find it for myself. and for

5:59

us, kind of adorable, that we're just

6:01

kind of like, here we are, like,

6:03

la da, like, ah, you know, how's

6:05

it going? How's this going? Well, we

6:08

don't know how much money we've got

6:10

to spend, you know, I don't know

6:12

why, but it's like, I like it.

6:14

I like having these moments where I...

6:17

realize what I need and work out

6:19

a way to solve it. And at

6:21

the same time, I feel like it

6:23

means that we're just adding what we

6:26

need at the time that we need

6:28

it. And that works for me. Because

6:30

there's sometimes where I think to myself,

6:32

I wish I could put all of

6:35

my time into trying to grow this

6:37

business. But I can't. And I also,

6:39

other times, don't want to, because that

6:41

would mean giving up everything else that

6:44

I love to do. It's the side

6:46

project. Really in its own little way

6:48

and that means it grows and shapes

6:50

itself in just like a funny way

6:53

sometimes Everything is a trade-off right like

6:55

every hour you spend on one thing

6:57

is an hour you can't spend on

6:59

another thing But this is the byproduct

7:02

of like the side project has become

7:04

more successful which makes it more complicated

7:06

and that's why we have kind of

7:08

bumbled into these things as it's gone

7:11

along and then On the reverse side,

7:13

for me, I think the thing again,

7:15

like I've been forced to reconceptualize is

7:17

I was just really determined to think

7:20

of myself as a person on my

7:22

own who happened to work with others.

7:24

And it's a similar kind of thing.

7:26

Like, oh, has the number of people

7:29

I worked with really changed that much?

7:31

Like, it's got up a little. But

7:33

it's like, oh, but the Cortex brand

7:35

project has become more important as it's

7:38

become more successful. So that has more

7:40

involvement, like there's more people vaguely over

7:42

there. But it's like just gone over

7:44

that threshold where it's like, I cannot

7:47

hold on to this conception anymore. Like

7:49

it's hugely important. And also just very

7:51

much realizing, like even on a small

7:53

team as things get more complicated, like,

7:56

oh, why do big companies do all

7:58

of this tracking stuff? Because in big

8:00

companies, people. have to be able to

8:02

make decisions autonomously or semi autonomously, having

8:05

information at hand to do... that's and

8:07

when you're like a really small team

8:09

it's easy to just keep the communication

8:11

lines always open but as it gets

8:14

just slightly bigger it is now better

8:16

to have like this is where the

8:18

information is and so like everyone can

8:20

know what everybody else is doing or

8:23

like what's related to what what's the

8:25

current stock order what's the current bank

8:27

balance oh it's better to know the

8:29

current bank balance not by asking Mike

8:32

what he remembers we have out his

8:34

orders, but like having an actual system

8:36

that's keeping track of it. I think

8:38

for both of us, like these things

8:41

have just like gone over the line

8:43

a little bit and be like, oh,

8:45

okay, got to formalize it more and

8:47

there's a reason that like bigger companies

8:50

formalize these things in this way. That

8:52

is part of bringing Cortex brand into

8:54

like the greater gray incorporated world of

8:56

like what is going on over here.

8:59

So welcome Mike. I also think it

9:01

is very funny because you are talking

9:03

about like, oh, you're seeing what's being

9:05

added to Cortex. It's like, ah, we

9:08

have not yet turned our attention to

9:10

the Cortex stuff. This is just like

9:12

incidental things that have happened to pop

9:14

into various people's heads to add onto

9:17

the list. It's like it has been.

9:19

all the like gray industry side of

9:21

things for now. I will say it's

9:23

been very interesting using Asana and I

9:26

want to try to like shortcut you

9:28

on I think when you're using it

9:30

the thing that has been the absolute

9:32

strangest thing for me to really try

9:35

to wrap my head around and that

9:37

is in Asana the fundamental thing that

9:39

is different here is it is a

9:41

database of tasks. It looks at first

9:44

like it's every other project manager where

9:46

it's like, oh, here's projects, and then

9:48

I have tasks inside of those projects.

9:50

But that's not really what it's doing

9:53

at the fundamental level. Really, it is

9:55

just these unrelated task entries in a

9:57

database. And like that. That is the

9:59

foundation of what it's doing. And so

10:02

everything else, including the project that this

10:04

task is part of, is functionally just

10:06

metadata attached to the task. And that

10:08

allows some really interesting things, like the

10:11

thing that sold me of, oh, a

10:13

task can exist inside of more than

10:15

one project at a time, because. It's

10:17

really just metadata that is being added

10:20

to the, it's not like a folder

10:22

that the thing is in. And that

10:24

has an enormous number of upsides. But

10:27

the one thing that has been totally

10:29

breaking my brain with the sauna, which

10:31

has really led to me trying to

10:33

reconceptualize a lot of the ways I

10:36

like set things up and think about

10:38

things, is it means that there is

10:40

no order to the tasks. They're just...

10:42

floating around in that database. I have

10:45

never seen a task manager do something

10:47

in that way, where there isn't the

10:49

canonical order of these things. You can

10:51

kind of like force it to be

10:54

in order in various ways, but it's

10:56

not like the starting place. Like you're

10:58

writing a list. What are you writing

11:00

a list of things on a piece

11:03

of paper? You're putting them in order.

11:05

It's like such a. basic concept that

11:07

I almost feel like I was blind

11:09

to the very idea that everything I've

11:12

been thinking about is a list in

11:14

order and that is not at all

11:16

what Asana is doing and I think

11:18

that is like the biggest mental shift

11:21

to get around it's like that is

11:23

not how this works. It gives some

11:25

really interesting advantages but it is very

11:27

strange to think about when you're actually

11:30

setting things up for the first time.

11:32

And I guess that's because as you

11:34

were saying that like the tasks they

11:36

relate to something else not just to

11:39

them being a list of tasks like

11:41

they sit within different projects and because

11:43

they can sit in different orders in

11:45

different projects based on what might happen

11:48

before or after that you can just

11:50

look at all of your tasks it's

11:52

not going to make any sense you

11:54

have to kind of Is it like

11:57

project first, task second? The key piece

11:59

of information is who is it assigned

12:01

to. So a task is assigned to

12:03

a person. So here's the huge upside.

12:06

And this is also the thing that

12:08

like the secondary thing that really sold

12:10

me is that when you start using

12:12

this you realize, oh, because the tasks

12:15

don't have this intrinsic order, it means

12:17

that each person can arrange the tasks

12:19

and view them. categorize them in ways

12:21

that are separate from every other person.

12:24

So the primary thing from the user

12:26

perspective is here are all of the

12:28

tasks that are assigned to you. You

12:30

then can, like I think their ideal

12:33

thing here in a sense is. There's

12:35

like a little thing at the top

12:37

which is just called my tasks. You

12:39

would just go in there and start

12:42

grinding through all of the things that

12:44

are available to you and that are

12:46

assigned to you right now. And again,

12:48

I think it's so interesting because it's

12:51

like, oh, of course, when you're distributing

12:53

work across a bunch of different people,

12:55

the order of those tasks doesn't matter.

12:57

to the individuals at any particular time,

13:00

like where does this exist in the

13:02

like the broader hierarchy? It's really only

13:04

the question of what can I do

13:06

right now. And that's where it'll let

13:09

you see if you have a task

13:11

that is blocking someone else and it

13:13

will let you see if there's a

13:15

task that's assigned to you. but you

13:18

can't get to it yet because someone

13:20

else needs to finish it and so

13:22

they're blocking you. But that's kind of

13:24

about all the order that's really in

13:27

the thing. I just keep like turning

13:29

this over in my head because it's

13:31

just like is not the way that

13:33

I work. But I think it is

13:36

the correct way to do this when

13:38

you're working with multiple people. And so

13:40

it's very interesting like having gone through

13:42

this with my assistant. It's like, oh,

13:45

I can already to kind of set

13:47

up a list, which is basically I

13:49

should do these same things in this

13:51

order every day. Like that's how I

13:54

want to work through stuff. And Asana

13:56

will let me do that. But like

13:58

my assistant's job is very different, where

14:00

it's like, oh, what is she seeing?

14:03

She's seeing, hey, a bunch of things

14:05

were assigned to you overnight, and then

14:07

she's able to like immediately triage, like,

14:09

oh, which of these does she want

14:12

to do tomorrow? And she's able to

14:14

move it across like a traditional. Kanban

14:16

board, which I would never use for

14:18

like sorting like the incoming currently working

14:21

on pending future tasks. It's like, oh,

14:23

of course, like we're each doing very

14:25

different kind of work. My work is

14:27

much more reliable. Hers is much more

14:30

sporadic and across like a lot of

14:32

different things. So she has to have

14:34

a system that allows her to see

14:36

things and quickly triage them and I

14:39

want a system that is like here

14:41

are the things that I have preset

14:43

for myself to do like in this

14:45

order that I want to see them

14:48

in this order, but like other people,

14:50

if those tasks are blocking them, they

14:52

don't care what that order is on

14:54

my own list. It's just like, okay,

14:57

they can see that like I need

14:59

to do something that is blocking them.

15:01

And that I think is just like,

15:03

what an advantage, because we've discussed many

15:06

times like the problems of these kinds

15:08

of tools. is that they ultimately force

15:10

everyone to work kind of the same

15:13

way, which is where everyone's like a

15:15

little unhappy all the time, which is

15:17

kind of how I've always felt about

15:19

notion. Like, oh, everybody has to look

15:22

at this exact same document in this

15:24

same way, because we're like literally typing

15:26

a document that everyone can read. So

15:28

Asana just like totally blast through that,

15:31

and I think it's great. What if

15:33

you are like me, well, like I

15:35

like due dates and due times on

15:37

a... Does that not disrupt this way

15:40

of working? No, so the due date

15:42

is just part of the like metadata

15:44

on the task because when you're saying

15:46

about the task list, you mean like

15:49

the master list, like the big overall

15:51

list of all of the tasks, and

15:53

then everybody else just sees their own,

15:55

like they get their own little list

15:58

of stuff that they've got to be

16:00

dealing with? Yeah, so even for me,

16:02

right, like I'm organizing the whole system,

16:04

right, like I'm getting like the highest

16:07

level view. Asana acts as a two-tier

16:09

tool for me. So organizing the company,

16:11

what are the priorities, what are the

16:13

high level goals that we're trying to

16:16

achieve, blah, blah, blah. And then that

16:18

actions down into like, here are the

16:20

specific projects that we're trying to complete.

16:22

Those projects then have tasks, but the

16:25

moment that I'm not in like... thinking

16:27

about the high level stuff mode. I

16:29

too am just going into Asana looking

16:31

at a list of the things that

16:34

are assigned to me and that's what

16:36

I'm working through. Right. Now. I am

16:38

the person who, since I'm going to

16:40

use the sonna for literally everything in

16:43

my life, I'm also doing, I'm putting

16:45

in like all of the routine stuff

16:47

that I was doing from last year

16:49

and like the stuff that I want

16:52

to work on this year from my

16:54

theme. So I have like the absurd

16:56

little tasks that are also just assigned

16:58

to me that no one else has

17:01

to see. But that's where like this

17:03

is what is really happening. It's like

17:05

it exists on the... assigned to you

17:07

level and each individual person gets to

17:10

organize it however they want. But if

17:12

something does have a due date, you

17:14

will see that as part of like

17:16

the task that you are assigned to.

17:19

Or you can see that like, oh,

17:21

this task is part of a project

17:23

that is assigned at a date in

17:25

the future. So that information also travels

17:28

through. I have to say, hugely impressed.

17:30

I will also say the thing that

17:32

I want to plug on this is

17:34

anyone who has listened to this show.

17:37

will know that is like what is

17:39

the one great thing that I've always

17:41

complained about with all task managers other

17:43

than Omni Focus is they have no

17:46

concept of this defer date of like

17:48

you can't start the thing until X

17:50

date and Asana falls into that same

17:52

category. It has something called a start

17:55

date, but it doesn't act like the

17:57

thing that I want it to. It

17:59

doesn't have like a true defer date.

18:01

I was like, oh no, is this

18:04

going to be the complete deal breaker

18:06

that just like ruins this whole thing

18:08

for me? And the answer is no,

18:10

because you can also define any new

18:13

custom metadata that you want to for

18:15

any task. And then within a sauna,

18:17

it's like. nearly touring complete. There's like

18:19

a bunch of rules that you can

18:22

have run on all tasks to like

18:24

treat them however you want or move

18:26

them around automatically when different things happen.

18:28

And so I have been able to

18:31

sort of like shortcuts for Macos. There's

18:33

a thing that they just call rules,

18:35

which is like shortcuts for Asana. And

18:37

so I've been able to program Asana

18:40

to basically be custom to me that

18:42

all tasks that are assigned to me

18:44

automatically get created like this defer date

18:46

metadata thing and then how my tasks

18:49

are displayed to me depends on that

18:51

defer date. And again, what is amazing

18:53

is like no one else has to

18:55

even know that this is happening to

18:58

these tasks. Like this is just for

19:00

me to like arrange them the way

19:02

that I want it. But anyone else

19:04

could do the exact same thing. Like

19:07

if they have some picky thing that

19:09

they want to add to the tasks,

19:11

they can just do it on their

19:13

end. And no one else has to

19:16

even know that that's part of what's

19:18

going on with these tasks or part

19:20

of what's happening with this system. So

19:22

I am. Hugely, hugely impressed with Asana.

19:25

Only thing that I don't like is

19:27

the iOS app, which is surprisingly limited

19:29

in a bunch of ways. But I

19:31

already have put in a little task

19:34

for Asana to be like, seriously consider

19:36

hiring an iOS developer to just make

19:38

a better widget for Asana. So that

19:40

might be a thing that comes to

19:43

pass someday. I mean, you know. the

19:45

iOS app like you're probably not going

19:47

to be doing all the big complex

19:49

stuff on it anyway right yeah that's

19:52

exactly it like all I would really

19:54

want is just a better widgets and

19:56

maybe also just a thing on my

19:58

watch like I'm not trying to do

20:01

all the complicated stuff and Asana has

20:03

like this API that lots of companies

20:05

have written stuff again so it's already

20:08

been in the back of my brain

20:10

I'm invested in this enough this is

20:12

good to be the tool going forward

20:14

this might actually be the first time

20:17

for me that it makes sense to

20:19

try to try to try to try

20:21

to like get a custom piece of

20:23

software made to like solve a problem

20:26

that I want with this thing. But

20:28

other than that, very impressed, very happy,

20:30

and you will be too, Mike. You

20:32

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23:08

in 2018, Apple introduced something called

23:10

Screen Time back in Iowa's 12 and

23:12

the idea of this feature is

23:14

that it would watch what you're doing

23:16

on your device and give you

23:18

statistics about it. The apps that you're

23:20

using, the notifications that you get,

23:23

that kind of stuff. This was all

23:25

a part of a thing that

23:27

Google and Apple were doing at the

23:29

time. I don't remember what they

23:31

called it, but it was this idea

23:33

of like, hey, we're

23:35

looking out for you. We

23:38

don't want you to overuse your phone.

23:40

There was a phrase that they used.

23:42

Digital well -being? Yes, I think, yeah, that's

23:44

what it was. Something like that. It's kind

23:47

of like how every once in a

23:49

while there's a year where like three movies

23:51

on the same topic get released. It

23:53

felt like that, like every software company that

23:55

year had like gotten the word about

23:57

the good news on digital well -being. We're

24:00

here to save you dot, dot, dot,

24:02

dot, from us. Dot, dot, and also

24:04

from anyone trying to make laws against

24:06

us. So, because there was some pressure,

24:08

there were like pressure groups being set

24:11

up, like that kind of thing. I

24:13

remember around this time. And so both

24:15

at the exact same time Google and

24:17

Apple introduced these features of like looking

24:19

out for you, suggesting you stop using

24:21

apps, allowing you to set limits on

24:23

apps and all this kind of stuff.

24:25

And so then we decided on episode

24:28

82 and episode called screen crimes that

24:30

we would share this with each other.

24:32

So like I would share my screen

24:34

time data and you would share your

24:36

emails with me so you could actually

24:38

see what our devices were really being

24:40

used for no matter what it was

24:43

we said they were being used for.

24:45

And I've really wanted to do this

24:47

again. And so we're going to share

24:49

them today. In preparing for this episode,

24:51

I realized just how buggy this... feature

24:53

continues to be on iOS. These are

24:55

the bugs that I have encountered in

24:58

trying to prepare for this episode. Screen

25:00

time turned itself off at some point

25:02

in the last few weeks. So I

25:04

do not have a full seven days

25:06

date or I have six days because

25:08

it just turned itself off. And I

25:10

text you and said, please make sure

25:13

it's turned on because mine turned off.

25:15

In general, it's still giving completely different

25:17

information on all of my devices, even

25:19

though they're all turned on. So my

25:21

iPhone, my iPad, and my Mac, when

25:23

I go to set the setting to

25:25

show me the data across all devices,

25:27

gives me completely different numbers. And there

25:30

is some kind of ghost device that

25:32

is currently reporting a 24-hour a day

25:34

usage on a website, and I don't

25:36

know where it's coming from. So these

25:38

are my caveats. I ended up taking

25:40

my data from my Mac because it

25:42

gave the best overall picture of what

25:45

I was doing. So I'm going to

25:47

send you my screenshot now. I could

25:49

look at my first if you like.

25:51

And I'll have the link in the

25:53

show note so people want to look

25:55

to what screen time is doing. It's

25:57

three. It's like your

26:00

usage of applications, your

26:03

notifications that you receive, like how

26:05

many there are, and also what

26:07

they call pickups. So when you

26:09

use your device, what is the

26:11

first thing you open when you

26:13

use your device? Yeah, let me

26:15

just also back up the... of

26:17

this system, which I just have

26:19

not thought about this in absolutely

26:21

forever Yeah, I think since Apple

26:23

rolled out the focus modes I

26:25

was able to basically not look

26:27

at this at all because I

26:29

was previously trying to use Okay,

26:31

I feel like Apple has these

26:34

Three or four interconnected systems that

26:36

could really use a revamp and

26:38

it's like it's the screen time

26:40

It's downtime and it's the family

26:42

sharing settings It feels like all

26:44

three of these are sitting on

26:46

top of some shared database of

26:48

like what's going on that is

26:50

very buggy I think screen time

26:52

is the database so like over

26:54

the years they have added features

26:56

on top So app limits downtime

26:58

and focus modes all got added

27:00

on top of screen time And

27:03

I think now, screen time

27:05

is this database of information,

27:07

which other things rely on,

27:09

but itself needs to be

27:11

looked at. I think it's

27:13

maybe the best way to

27:15

put it. Yeah. I tried

27:18

to turn it back on from my Mac and

27:20

it was like, the data was. Garbage.

27:22

Like, oh, do you know what I'm

27:24

doing with my time mic? I spend

27:26

24 hours a day, seven days a

27:28

week on Finder. That's what I'm doing,

27:30

apparently, according to my Mac. Last week,

27:32

I spent 133 hours and 11 minutes

27:34

on Bloomberg.com. I don't think you did.

27:36

No, I did. I got

27:39

to read the

27:41

reports. I need to

27:43

know. I need

27:45

to know. I'm hooked

27:47

into the terminal.

27:49

So yeah, I'm going

27:52

to be giving

27:54

you my phone information

27:56

because that is

27:58

like the only useful

28:00

thing that I

28:02

was able to get.

28:05

So let me

28:07

send that to you

28:09

now. Very fair.

28:11

I feel like my

28:13

phone stuff is

28:15

pretty accurate looking at

28:18

just the phone

28:20

But how do you

28:22

feel about this

28:24

for well all the

28:26

things when I

28:28

looked it my phone it felt

28:31

okay-ish and then when I was I

28:33

wanted to try and get a bigger

28:35

picture though and I ended up finding

28:37

the data set that made the most

28:39

sense like when I was looking on

28:41

my iPhone it was showing I'd been

28:44

using safari for three hours in the

28:46

entire week and then when I looked

28:48

on my Mac it was like eight

28:50

hours which feels also inaccurate but better.

28:52

So that was why I ended up

28:55

going with this data set. Yeah I

28:57

know but I'm just like I'm finding

28:59

my brain immediately breaking because it's like

29:01

ah 22 hours of daily usage is

29:03

like I don't even know how to

29:05

start thinking about this. Well that's because

29:08

of the 133 hours on Bloomberg. Yeah,

29:10

I guess so, but even still, it's

29:12

breaking my brain. I mean, the immediate

29:14

one at the top of my list

29:16

is the combo, the one-two punch of

29:18

YouTube and Balattro. What's Balattro? Oh, gee.

29:21

Oh, it's a video game. Oh, you

29:23

have brought this one up to me.

29:25

I think you pitched this to me

29:27

on episode of More Texts. I just

29:29

haven't gotten a chance to actually try

29:31

it yet. This was like wild card

29:34

poker, but sort of what you were

29:36

saying. It's like you get points for

29:38

better poker hands, like like you get

29:40

points for better poker hands, like like

29:42

a deck building poker game. Is that

29:44

what it was? Correct. You're like, you're

29:47

adapting. time as you could see in

29:49

any 10 hours last week. I play

29:51

Balatra a lot whenever I'm commuting. I

29:53

play it as a way to kind

29:55

of wind down in the evening. Like

29:57

I play it all the time and

30:00

YouTube is paired with that a lot

30:02

and a lot of that YouTube time

30:04

of which shows 15 hours recorded last

30:06

week, it's podcasts. So I watch video

30:08

podcasts and typically I will watch a

30:10

video podcast in picturing picture while I'm

30:13

playing bilateral. It's like a perfect pairing.

30:15

I love it. Yeah. I have also

30:17

found that YouTube is surprisingly good for

30:19

podcasts in a strange way. Like here's

30:21

the advantage that YouTube has over like

30:23

a normal podcast player that I've just

30:26

become more and more sensitized to is

30:28

I'm subscribed to like a ton of

30:30

shows in my overcast because I like

30:32

to be able to just like have

30:34

a big bank to draw from and

30:36

delete everything that just seems boring and

30:39

try to like find the thing that

30:41

kind of like catches my interest, right?

30:43

But the problem that I have with

30:45

that is I just never really thought

30:47

about this until I started listening to

30:49

more podcast on YouTube is If I

30:52

have like a topic show and I'm

30:54

like looking for the interesting topics and

30:56

I'm like deleting the things that seem

30:58

boring. The problem is I'm not able

31:00

to know which of these episodes that

31:02

seem boring might actually be super interesting

31:05

because there's nothing like a view count.

31:07

There's no even just like the algorithm

31:09

is trying to bring me something to

31:11

see that I might not have thought

31:13

of otherwise. And I feel like that

31:15

to me has been a... surprising advantage

31:18

with watching podcasts on YouTube is the

31:20

like, oh, I might not have watched

31:22

this, but the view count is really

31:24

high, so maybe there's something interesting here,

31:26

or like it's bringing me things, and

31:28

the very fact that YouTube brings it

31:31

to me just... gives it like a

31:33

higher credence of like I'll try listening

31:35

to that even if it doesn't sound

31:37

immediately interesting or maybe like even just

31:39

the thing like I don't know who

31:41

this guest is but YouTube thinks I

31:44

might be interested so like I'll give

31:46

it a try and see if this

31:48

person is interesting and I'm just like

31:50

increasingly aware of how in a traditional

31:52

podcast player I have access to none

31:54

of that information. It's like ironically I'm

31:57

doing more of a kind of self

31:59

reinforcement of listening to the same kinds

32:01

of things with an unalgorithmic source like

32:03

a podcast than the YouTube algorithmic source.

32:05

So this is a long way of

32:07

saying I'm not surprised to hear that

32:10

like you're listening to a lot of

32:12

podcasts on YouTube because I've also noticed

32:14

like an increase in this behavior from

32:16

myself as well. I find all of

32:18

those ways you're talking about podcast discovery

32:20

to be interesting. What do you mean?

32:23

not all what I'm doing. The way

32:25

in which I am consuming podcasts on

32:27

YouTube is still very old school in

32:29

a way. So it really is just

32:31

one set of podcasts. So I'm a

32:33

big fan of podcast network called Kind

32:36

of Funny and they mostly do gaming

32:38

stuff with some pop culture stuff and

32:40

they have a really wonderful studio and

32:42

they record in person in a studio

32:44

and so I just prefer to watch

32:46

the video. And a lot of the

32:49

time I'll have YouTube like my phone

32:51

locked and I'm listening just... Yep. Walking

32:53

around and I might grab my phone

32:55

if something happens and I want to

32:57

see what just happened, you know, like

32:59

maybe some kind of visual gag or

33:02

whatever. But I really could just listen

33:04

to the men overcast as well and

33:06

it would be fine, but I just

33:08

prefer having the opportunity to also watch

33:10

the video. I do not use it

33:13

as a recommendation thing. Like I want

33:15

to listen to all of their shows

33:17

that I like to listen to listen

33:19

to. I don't kind of pick and

33:21

choose that way, but I know lots

33:23

of people do. a bigger and bigger

33:26

and bigger part of the podcasting ecosystem

33:28

is because people want to consume podcast

33:30

this way. I think this couples hand

33:32

in hand with the explosion in interview

33:34

podcasts over the last five to ten

33:36

years, right? That like interview podcasts do

33:39

kind of need this as a way

33:41

to... try and service to people if

33:43

a show is interesting. Yeah, they need

33:45

it more and they're well served by

33:47

the algorithm in a way that like

33:49

other shows are not, but yeah, it's

33:52

why even when I'm thinking about it,

33:54

YouTube is capturing for me a, maybe

33:56

even now it's like, oh, the majority

33:58

of interviews I'm probably going to listen

34:00

to them on YouTube and like I'm

34:02

less inclined to do interview shows in

34:05

overcast. My favorite kinds of podcasts are

34:07

the ones that benefit from their being

34:09

a long-running relationship between the hosts and

34:11

a chemistry and a camaraderie, and I

34:13

think that algorithms do not help that

34:15

kind of content to blossom? No. From

34:18

the... produced aside or from the listener

34:20

side, but when the episodes are kind

34:22

of singular because they're having a different

34:24

makeup of people on them, I think

34:26

that algorithms do help that, but that's

34:28

also just not a kind of content.

34:31

that I like to consume. I don't

34:33

listen to really any shows like that.

34:35

With one exception, which is a podcast

34:37

called The Town, which is just an

34:39

audio podcast and it's about kind of

34:41

like Hollywood news and I really like

34:44

it because the host is so good.

34:46

But my favorite episodes are the Monday

34:48

episodes where he has a fixed guest,

34:50

like the same person every Monday. So,

34:52

you know, that is why YouTube is

34:54

so high for me. I mean, along

34:57

with all of the other... YouTube videos

34:59

that I watch like YouTube is my

35:01

number one source of entertainment like yeah

35:03

if I want to watch something if

35:05

just for me if I want to

35:07

watch something it will always be YouTube

35:10

very rarely with my wife right like

35:12

if we're gonna watch something it will

35:14

be a more traditional television show but

35:16

if I'm watching something, it's most likely

35:18

going to be from YouTube. Yeah, that's

35:20

the same thing for me. Like any

35:23

solo viewing, it's like YouTube is the

35:25

first port of call every time for

35:27

like, what is it that I'm going

35:29

to be watching? Like the only time

35:31

it's not is when someone I follow

35:33

on YouTube has posted like members only

35:36

content on like a subscription service like

35:38

Patriot, like, but like I still feel

35:40

like that stuff's still just watching YouTube.

35:42

It's like still functionally the same thing.

35:44

But yeah, it's like YouTube. YouTube is

35:46

totally the first portal call. That is

35:49

the beauty of YouTube as a thing,

35:51

which is, YouTube is where you get

35:53

the thing that's just for you. Like,

35:55

it's the, what is the weird niche

35:57

you care about? That people in your

35:59

life don't care about, it's on YouTube.

36:02

Like, you'll find it. And that's why

36:04

I believe it's like such a fantastic,

36:06

like, solo viewing experience, because you can

36:08

just, you can watch someone make knives

36:10

out of, like, gummy bears. because that's

36:12

what you want to watch someone's doing

36:15

it you can go watch it yeah

36:17

that's also why it is the solo

36:19

viewing because it just gets so tailored

36:21

to you it's like ah yes I

36:23

want to listen to someone talk about

36:25

their experience at a theme park for

36:28

six hours like great is that very

36:30

shareable content normally no no it's the

36:32

kind of content that if you were

36:34

to show someone you're watching it together

36:36

you feel kind of embarrassed But like

36:38

when you're watching it on your own,

36:41

you're like, yes, where's hour seven? Yeah.

36:43

But this does actually bring like a

36:45

problem with this entire screen time system,

36:47

right? Which is overcast is 20 minutes

36:49

right down at the bottom. But that's

36:51

not accurate. Right? Yeah, that is not

36:54

accurate. All it is measuring is what

36:56

is on your screen. It's not measuring

36:58

what is being used. And I think

37:00

that is a fundamental problem with a

37:02

system like this. Yeah. Like I've never

37:04

tried to set an app limit on

37:07

overcast or like an app that you

37:09

use in the background. But my thinking

37:11

would be that I could put a

37:13

10 minute app limit on overcast but

37:15

listen to it in the background for

37:17

four hours. So I have just had

37:20

a flashback to using the system and

37:22

I literally tried to do exactly what

37:24

you're saying. Put a timer on... all

37:26

kinds of media consumption including overcast and

37:28

you are correct I ran into this

37:31

exact problem of like oh I only

37:33

want to listen to overcast for an

37:35

hour a day well guess what I'm

37:37

never going to hit that limit because

37:39

I'm not actively using the app for

37:41

an hour a day this episode of

37:44

courts access brought to you by Google

37:46

Gemini I tried Gemini a couple of

37:48

days ago the Gemini live where you

37:50

can talk to it and it really

37:52

is wild to have a full-on conversation

37:54

with this thing. I was messing around

37:57

and asked it to give me some

37:59

ideas for hosting a party during the

38:01

holidays, and when it started giving results,

38:03

I could just stop it and say,

38:05

okay, but what about something low-key for

38:07

a smaller group? And then it just

38:10

adjusts to that and you can keep

38:12

going until you get an idea that

38:14

you want. I think that's what I

38:16

would use it for most, brainstorming things.

38:18

It's so good if you don't know

38:20

where to start, or if you don't

38:23

know where to start, It helps you

38:25

get the ball rolling, but you can

38:27

use it for all kinds of stuff.

38:29

If you want to learn something new,

38:31

you can have it give you advice.

38:33

Ask it to explain Bitcoin in simple

38:36

terms, or you can have it quiz

38:38

you on microbiology. Imagine being a student

38:40

and you've got this personal tutor on

38:42

hand. It's hard to explain. You really

38:44

have to play around with it. See

38:46

how it listens to you, response, your

38:49

style of conversation. Just try it out,

38:51

it's free. Our thanks to Google Gemini

38:53

for the support of this show and

38:55

all of all of relay. There's another

38:57

place where you can get statistics that

38:59

I kind of like this. So in

39:02

the battery statistics. So I just went

39:04

in in the last 10 days I've

39:06

had 15 hours of overcast usage based

39:08

on battery statistics. Oh, but 20 minutes

39:10

in screen time. And also in the

39:12

last 10 days, 28 hours of YouTube.

39:15

Because 14 hours is in the background

39:17

because I'm just listening to it like

39:19

a podcast. Right. If I wanted to

39:21

set an app limit on myself, or

39:23

this is also using parental controls on

39:25

somebody else, I could set them 10

39:28

hours a week in YouTube or whatever,

39:30

but they could just listen infinitely in

39:32

the background. Now, I don't know if

39:34

that's necessarily what you would be concerned

39:36

about, but if you were, this system

39:38

doesn't... provide that for you. You know?

39:41

I completely forgot that there's this totally

39:43

parallel system. I'm just going to send

39:45

you, I'm going to send you what

39:47

mine looks like, because there's definitely bugs

39:49

in this system. So here's my battery

39:51

usage from the last week, because I'm

39:54

like, oh, this will be interesting to

39:56

compare. It's like, oh, this data is

39:58

all garbage, but for a different reason.

40:00

I have this wild bug that I

40:02

have tried to fix multiple times. I

40:04

have contacted the developers. running this audio

40:07

player 24 hours a day every day.

40:09

So I have like 222 and 20

40:11

minutes of background usage of portal, which

40:13

I can absolutely guarantee. is not the

40:15

case. So like, why are there multiple

40:17

incorrect ways of trying to track what

40:20

you're using on your phone? Like this

40:22

really feels like, you know what? Apple

40:24

needs to do what we're doing. They

40:26

do to do a reorg of like,

40:28

how are we tracking what people are

40:30

doing on their phone? Because these systems

40:33

are just wild. I understand why a

40:35

battery usage thing would be separate. Because

40:37

there are apps that do just run

40:39

in the background and they take a

40:41

sip at your battery, but they do

40:43

run in the background But then you

40:46

do run into the situations that we're

40:48

talking about where there are apps that

40:50

are explicitly designed to run in the

40:52

background that then do not show up

40:54

in your screen time, which is essentially

40:56

a log of your usage. Maybe what

40:59

actually needs to happen is there are

41:01

two different things, but there needs to

41:03

be an overall usage set of data.

41:05

I understand why you might want to

41:07

just track something that shows on a

41:09

screen, but what about all of the

41:12

usage of my phone? I wouldn't personally

41:14

feel a need to do something with

41:16

it, but if you wanted to consider

41:18

your digital well-being, maybe that would be,

41:20

I need to consume less content, right?

41:22

Yeah, you need to know how you're

41:25

actually using it. Yeah, and you can't,

41:27

you can't get that data in a

41:29

reliable way. I mean, let alone the

41:31

fact that these systems don't work very

41:33

well, but even if they did, it

41:35

still wouldn't be the accurate set of

41:38

information. of your stuff, like that's the

41:40

thing that's been in the background of

41:42

my mind. It's like, what is this

41:44

even showing actually? And it's showing some

41:46

strange subset of all of the data,

41:48

and what we would actually want is

41:51

usage, because yeah, that was exactly what

41:53

I was trying to do when I

41:55

was using downtime, and I remember it

41:57

particularly being around media, like, I want

41:59

to limit media consumption, but actually the

42:02

vast majority of my media consumption is

42:04

audio, which is completely. untracked by this

42:06

whole thing and meanwhile every single second

42:08

that finder is on the screen on

42:10

my Mac is like diligently logged as

42:12

though I am there just like staring

42:15

right at it yeah it's just like

42:17

not giving what we would really want

42:19

but but there is still stuff in

42:21

here which is interesting like for example

42:23

the fact that last week I spent

42:25

a cumulative hour in email looking at

42:28

the way this is broken up from

42:30

30 minutes to the mail app and

42:32

then like another 20 minutes to read

42:34

all and then another 25 minutes to

42:36

spark so what is also happening here

42:38

because these are different apps and different

42:41

platforms they're trying to work out like

42:43

the com dot something is like yes

42:45

that doesn't exist on this platform so

42:47

it's like trying to work out what

42:49

it is but you can kind of

42:51

work out that between smart email spark

42:54

desktop and mail there's two entries for

42:56

spark and one entry for mail and

42:58

I think that's great and we're going

43:00

to see it as we go through

43:02

my notifications and pickup data the amount

43:04

of time I spend in email is

43:07

just less and less over the years

43:09

and I like seeing that they are

43:11

there in like in an entire week

43:13

period that I only spent an hour

43:15

in email, just is so much better

43:17

than it has been for me at

43:20

other different parts of my working life,

43:22

which I love. Yeah, that is like

43:24

kind of what I was. thinking towards

43:26

is it still seems to be like

43:28

the activity data is like just not

43:30

very helpful no but the notifications and

43:33

the pickups is actually trying to get

43:35

at something true and I feel like

43:37

it's particularly useful for the phone like

43:39

the phone is the absolute epicenter of

43:41

like the usefulness for notifications and pickups

43:43

like like I completely forgot that it

43:46

was even tracking that and it's like

43:48

oh yeah this is a thing that

43:50

I do want to kind of Review

43:52

every once in a while. Oh, you

43:54

know what I should create a repeating

43:56

as on a task to like do

43:59

that just to like check this out

44:01

every once in a while Because Mike

44:03

if you say you want to do

44:05

something, but you don't actually capture it

44:07

as an actionable of that you're going

44:09

to fit somewhere in your life. Like

44:12

what are you even doing? It's not

44:14

even true. You've not even done it.

44:16

Boop assigned to me straight into my

44:18

tasks. But yeah, this is the stuff

44:20

that is like significantly more interesting. And

44:22

I feel like once again, Mike is

44:25

a very popular boy, 2,000 notifications from

44:27

messages. It's probably like half of that.

44:29

Right? Because it is double counting some

44:31

stuff. Like I just looked on my

44:33

iPhone statistics for last week and on

44:35

my iPhone I got 700 notifications for

44:38

messages, not 2000. But it is probably

44:40

around a thousand I would expect. But

44:42

what I do find fascinating about that

44:44

is I have a bunch of group

44:46

threads on mute. So like I get

44:48

so many more messages than this, which

44:51

that's funny. But yeah, I mean, but

44:53

that doesn't surprise me. That is how

44:55

I communicate with people. I like to

44:57

send messages. You know, you're not going

44:59

to find tons of phone call data

45:01

in here because that's not what I'm

45:04

doing. Yeah. And then kind of like

45:06

going down a boat is my home

45:08

security system, which is also why like

45:10

the home app is up there because

45:12

we get lots of notifications like doors

45:14

opening and closing, windows opening and closing,

45:17

that kind of stuff. Okay, that's what

45:19

that is. I didn't realize. Okay. Due

45:21

and to do us, they're doing their

45:23

thing along with clock. It's like it's

45:25

all my alarms. To think about how

45:27

many alarms I say every day, but

45:30

you can kind of average it out.

45:32

That's like 10 alarms. Okay, it takes

45:34

10 alarms to get a mic out

45:36

of bed. You know what? Whatever you

45:38

got to do, man, to get out

45:40

of bed. If it takes 10 alarms,

45:43

that's what it takes. Soon it's not

45:45

going to be alarms. It's going to

45:47

be one little person. That's going to

45:49

be getting me out of bed. I'm

45:51

not going to need alarms anymore. We'll

45:53

see, uh-huh. Yeah. What's app, that is

45:56

one that's creeping that's creeping up the

45:58

list. meeting new people in London. People

46:00

don't use messages here, they use WhatsApp.

46:02

Like that is how everybody communicates. It's

46:04

only... becoming like more and more prevalent

46:06

that like WhatsApp is moving up and

46:09

up and up in my life as

46:11

a communication system like I was thinking

46:13

about this I would be very surprised

46:15

I put this down now we can

46:17

check it later on I would be

46:20

very surprised if WhatsApp was not on

46:22

my homescreen when we do state of

46:24

the apps this year. Oh interesting okay

46:26

yeah and like this is a thing

46:28

of like I'm already getting a sense

46:30

of like my homescreen is going to

46:33

look very different by the time we

46:35

get there, because there's like a few

46:37

apps that are already starting to buy

46:39

their way into being very likely to

46:41

be moving to the home screen. So

46:43

I'm gonna have to find like two

46:46

or maybe three apps to remove from

46:48

my main home screen. That's the thing,

46:50

WhatsApp is gonna be one of them,

46:52

I think, that makes its way in.

46:54

Yeah, I was just looking, so I

46:56

have, I have four years like vehemently

46:59

refused to use WhatsApp. I'm like, I

47:01

just do not want another communication channel,

47:03

like at all costs, like I will

47:05

do anything I can, but I will

47:07

easily bet that like WhatsApp will be

47:09

on your home screen next year, because

47:12

even for me, it didn't cross over

47:14

into like my top list for notifications,

47:16

but the dam did break this year

47:18

of like, of like, three contacts like

47:20

who all needed to use WhatsApp and

47:22

I was like I can't fight this

47:25

anymore like I have to give it

47:27

and so I was like great now

47:29

I too have WhatsApp it's like I

47:31

finally lost this battle that I somehow

47:33

thought I could be like the only

47:35

person to survive from but you probably

47:38

don't need this top tip but I'm

47:40

gonna share this top tip because this

47:42

was a thing that's frustrated me of

47:44

WhatsApp forever was that say you have

47:46

three people that it's into a message

47:48

right And you have a badge like

47:51

three on the little badge thing. If

47:53

you opened WhatsApp and looked at one

47:55

message, it would clear the badge completely.

47:57

Yeah, that has happened to me. So

47:59

what's the top tip? You can change

48:01

this now. They have added a setting.

48:04

For years, they did not have this

48:06

as something that you could change. It

48:08

was just that was how WhatsApp worked.

48:10

But now, if you go into WhatsApp,

48:12

you go into settings. You go into

48:14

notifications. There is a toggle called clear

48:17

badge. Okay. Turn that off immediately. And

48:19

it will maintain the badge for you.

48:21

I want to share this tip of

48:23

as many people as possible because it

48:25

has significantly changed my feelings towards WhatsApp

48:27

because I sometimes would be like there

48:30

is a message in there that I

48:32

want to get to. open new message

48:34

notifications because it will clear the number

48:36

away and then I would forget that

48:38

I had to go and respond to

48:40

a friend about meeting for lunch or

48:43

something. Thank you so much for that

48:45

because I have already even with just

48:47

a few contacts in there that's already

48:49

caused me problems several times precisely because

48:51

I'm not using it a lot so

48:53

I've accidentally cleared something and then I

48:56

don't get back to it for weeks

48:58

because it's like it doesn't come up

49:00

that often so great that is immediately

49:02

using that they didn't do it this

49:04

way and then added the feature and

49:06

didn't make that the default. I don't

49:09

understand why they think people want to

49:11

live their life that way, but apparently

49:13

the developers of WhatsApp do. I don't

49:15

know, that feels to me like user

49:17

engagement, like that's what they're trying to

49:19

go for, right? Is like someone has

49:22

a spreadsheet where they want to do

49:24

something like messages per opening and they're

49:26

trying to optimize for it and then

49:28

like not... taking the badge away I

49:30

don't know why you would care about

49:32

that if you made what's that like

49:35

they're not selling something based on engagement

49:37

yeah that's true maybe it's just um

49:39

yeah just a bad decision that they

49:41

made I have whoop in here which

49:43

I know is a thing that people

49:45

ask about I'm wearing a whoop band

49:48

I don't know what I think about

49:50

it yet This is something that we

49:52

will talk about later in the year

49:54

though, I think. I was bullying you

49:56

to give it a try. I wasn't

49:58

sure if you ever really, really did,

50:01

so that caught my attention straight away,

50:03

is that you've got the whoop, but

50:05

we'll save that. We're every day. We'll

50:07

save that for a future conversation. Interesting,

50:09

interesting. Do a lingo, sitting down there.

50:11

I don't understand how do a lingo

50:14

is only on 15 notification. Because I

50:16

feel like to only go is always

50:18

up in my business. Yeah, that's their

50:20

whole deal, isn't it? Maybe I'm just

50:22

very good. I am on a 403

50:24

day street of Romanian. Very good. Fortebuun,

50:27

in fact, you could say, Gray. Yeah.

50:29

I couldn't help but notice that the

50:31

New York Times Word game thing was

50:33

on there. I'm just curious, which game

50:35

is it for you? Because I have

50:38

recently gotten completely addicted to one of

50:40

the games and I just wanted to

50:42

know if it's the same one. Which

50:44

one is it? So I wouldn't say

50:46

I'm addicted, but me and Idina tend

50:48

to play together the mini crosswords. Oh,

50:51

the mini crosswords. Okay. So I got

50:53

my mama subscription to the New York

50:55

Times games a couple years ago, because

50:57

she was playing wordle. This is just

50:59

one of those things where, you know,

51:01

you pay attention to like, especially with

51:04

parents. I want my mom to stay

51:06

as sharp as she possibly can, right?

51:08

And she does, she's very intelligent woman

51:10

and I want that to remain that

51:12

way. And when I got a hint

51:14

that she was really into word games,

51:17

you know, I'm like, alright, great. And

51:19

so I bought her a subscription and

51:21

she plays all of them. I think

51:23

spelling bee is her favorite. This is

51:25

without fail, I fall asleep. The game

51:27

sends me to sleep, so I can't

51:30

play spelling bit anymore. But we signed

51:32

up for connections. I was playing connections

51:34

and signed up for that, but then

51:36

found that the mini cross word is

51:38

my favorite. Okay. So I was just

51:40

shocked that I signed up for this

51:43

because I just hate. word games. It's

51:45

like I have always felt like I

51:47

should be the kind of person who

51:49

does cross word puzzles and I just

51:51

I cannot do them partly because my

51:53

spelling is just absolutely atrocious. There's just

51:56

like something about word games I cannot

51:58

do have never enjoyed any of them.

52:00

But the one that did get me

52:02

which I love is the connections. So

52:04

if you haven't played, right, they give

52:06

you like this four by four great.

52:09

where there's one word written on each

52:11

of these squares, and... What you have

52:13

to do is find four words that

52:15

belong in one category four times. So

52:17

at the end you will end up

52:19

with like, ah, you've correctly put together

52:22

the four words into the four categories.

52:24

And it's a game like I will

52:26

really, really push it of, you have

52:28

to play it a few times to

52:30

kind of get what the game is

52:32

after. But what I really like is

52:35

I feel like it gives the satisfaction

52:37

that people are getting out of crosswords,

52:39

which is something like, oh, that was

52:41

a really interesting. question that led to

52:43

this word in an unexpected way. Like

52:45

it feels like that's the satisfaction that

52:48

people get, but... I don't have to

52:50

spell or come up with the word.

52:52

The words are there, and it can

52:54

just be very satisfying sometimes to go

52:56

like, oh, that's a way that these

52:58

four words are connected, which I never

53:01

would have thought about. So like, yeah,

53:03

I took a little while, but boy,

53:05

do I just, I really like it?

53:07

And I don't know if it's true,

53:09

but I honestly feel like it kind

53:11

of makes me better at writing because

53:14

it's just getting me to think of

53:16

words in different ways than I would

53:18

normally do, key to the game is

53:20

like, ah, yeah, there's the obvious thing

53:22

this word is, but there's some secondary

53:24

or tertiary meaning that also lines up

53:27

with the secondary or tertiary meaning of

53:29

three of these other words. So A

53:31

plus word game, the only word game

53:33

I have ever enjoyed. If you never

53:35

played the many crosswords, I do recommend

53:37

them. Like, it's just enough crossword. Mike,

53:40

I have one question. Mm. Am I

53:42

required to spell words? Yeah. Okay, it's

53:44

out. This is out for me. You

53:46

don't like doing that? I am incapable

53:48

of spelling words, so no. It's not

53:50

even a choice. I just literally can't.

53:53

I understand. I mean, we all have

53:55

our strengths. Like if there was any

53:57

number, like all the number games, no,

53:59

it's not happening. I just can't, numbers,

54:01

I can't deal with. You know, like

54:03

Sudoku was on there. It's like, no,

54:06

you're okay. I don't even gonna bother,

54:08

don't even. But I like connections. But

54:10

I like connections. Two. Strands is fun

54:12

if you never played strands. Do I

54:14

have to spell? Well, it's the spelling

54:16

in reverse, right? Why would you even?

54:19

Spelling in reverse? Do you ever play

54:21

word searches? The word searches is that

54:23

also like a cryptonite kind of thing?

54:25

Mike, you know what you have to

54:27

know how to do in order to

54:29

search for words? Spell them. You have

54:32

to know how to spell them. But

54:34

connections you have to read them, which

54:36

means you need to know how to

54:38

know how to spell them. Look Mike

54:40

to spell them. Look, Mike. I can

54:42

read, right? I think you can read

54:45

by looking at a word search, right?

54:47

No, it's like, it's all different, right?

54:49

Because I'm like, I'm basically trying to

54:51

spell the word one adjacent letter at

54:53

a time. The word search is somehow

54:56

the worst version of all of this.

54:58

It's awful. Okay. Okay, let's take a

55:00

look at your pickup data. Not surprisingly,

55:02

messages at the top there, given all

55:04

of the messages that you get. Good.

55:06

Pickups per messages sent ratio very high.

55:09

So yeah, what's up is totally climbing

55:11

the rank of priority for you there.

55:13

Yep. Oh, you're on Blue Sky Social.

55:15

So you're over on the Blue Butterfly.

55:17

I don't know any of the lingo

55:19

for Blue Sky Social. Blue Sky is

55:22

my current favorite text social network. But

55:24

if we jump back over to app

55:26

usage. Oh. You'll see 56 minutes. an

55:28

entire six days. Right, so not a

55:30

ton. No, I mean they all have

55:32

that app limits 15 minutes a day

55:35

and you can see in that data

55:37

that I'm not going over it. So

55:39

I'm still really happy about that. Like

55:41

three hours in the week for tech

55:43

space social media I think is amazing.

55:45

Especially for someone who works in the

55:48

tech reporting industry, yeah, that is absolutely

55:50

amazing. Yeah, that is fantastic to be

55:52

holding the line on that one. That's

55:54

really good. But I do feel that

55:56

this is where some of the data

55:58

is just not helping me out because

56:01

like I know I'm spending a ton

56:03

of time in RSS and like Reader

56:05

is down there like 20 minutes and

56:07

it's like that's not right like there's

56:09

right down at the bottom but like

56:11

I just know that what I am

56:14

doing is spending a lot of time

56:16

going through RSS. That's my way of

56:18

getting news. I do not rely on

56:20

text-based social media to get news for

56:22

my work anymore, which is what I

56:24

was doing years and years and years

56:27

ago. So I'm much happier about this

56:29

mix of the way this stuff works

56:31

for me now. But yeah, of the

56:33

ones that I. amusing I find blue

56:35

sky to be currently the most enjoyable

56:37

but this stuff it goes up and

56:40

down over time it's also the newest

56:42

one you know I didn't want to

56:44

do many comparisons but I do want

56:46

to make a comparison so back when

56:48

we did this the first time back

56:50

in 2018 I spent seven hours a

56:53

week on Twitter oh wow I didn't

56:55

realize it was that bad yeah spending

56:57

a full workday on Twitter yeah right

56:59

so like I think that is a

57:01

pretty great difference of like a thing

57:03

that I have worked on over time

57:06

where now it's like it's half of

57:08

that with three services. Yeah that's way

57:10

better that's good and that's the kind

57:12

of stuff that these systems should be

57:14

helping you work towards so like yeah

57:16

that's really good. This episode of Cortex

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59:16

slash cortex that is Fitbod.me slash cortex.

59:18

So 25% of your membership. Thanks to

59:20

Fitbod for the support of this show

59:22

and Relay. Okay, let me take a

59:24

look at yours here. I think the

59:27

first thing that I'm immediately drawn to

59:29

is the name of your device is

59:31

3-emogee, Tikfun Star. What are you asking

59:33

about? What does that mean? I'm just

59:35

like, what is this code? So I've

59:37

settled on like three emoji scheme for

59:40

basically all of my devices. Okay. Like,

59:42

okay. Again, this is another one of

59:44

these things. I have always had a

59:46

real, I'm realizing now I'm about to

59:48

say this right after the part where

59:50

I'm like, I can't play word games.

59:53

I was about to say, I've always

59:55

had a real war on words. It's

59:57

like, like. Oh, in my to-do system,

59:59

I use a lot of emoji to

1:00:01

represent tasks, like in my time tracking,

1:00:03

it's the same thing. And so I

1:00:06

recently redid all of my devices. to

1:00:08

be like, I don't need to have

1:00:10

the names of these things, I can

1:00:12

just use like three little icons to

1:00:14

represent what they are. The checkmark is

1:00:16

still a little bit of a legacy

1:00:19

thing because I was actually just... doing

1:00:21

a physical cleanup of all of my

1:00:23

devices and re-going through each one of

1:00:25

them. And so as I was doing

1:00:27

it, I was just like doing the

1:00:29

green checkmark to be like, okay, I've

1:00:32

gone through this device, I've changed the

1:00:34

settings, I've updated the name. So that's

1:00:36

eventually going to go. But otherwise, it's

1:00:38

just like, oh, it's a little iPhone

1:00:40

and then it's the star icon because

1:00:42

this is the like newest iPhone. I

1:00:45

still have last year's model like around.

1:00:47

And then this is the new one.

1:00:49

So all of my devices now, I

1:00:51

have some like little emoji code for

1:00:53

like, which device is this? And then

1:00:55

some little emoji just to represent, where

1:00:58

does this live or what is the

1:01:00

device's primary purpose? And I've done that

1:01:02

with like the different headphones because I

1:01:04

have the different airpods and. Again, maybe

1:01:06

it's because I read words out loud

1:01:08

in my head. I've always just felt

1:01:11

like reading words is kind of slower

1:01:13

and less clear. So I've been really

1:01:15

happy with this, even going through things

1:01:17

like the Bluetooth connection and just switching

1:01:19

headphones. I find it visually much easier

1:01:21

to parse. Like, oh, I want to

1:01:24

connect to this headphone, which is represented

1:01:26

by these emoji, rather than like reading

1:01:28

the words. Like, uh, this is the

1:01:30

Airpods Pro for with noise cancellation, and

1:01:32

this is the Airpods Pro, too. but

1:01:34

the new one not the old one

1:01:37

that you thought you lost and had

1:01:39

to replace or whatever so that's why

1:01:41

I have that weird device name but

1:01:43

I like this as a system I

1:01:45

am not recommending this as a system

1:01:47

to anyone I was immediately drawn to

1:01:50

one thing in your list mm-hmm 50

1:01:52

minutes on sonicare oh you have an

1:01:54

ad for your toothbrush brush okay so

1:01:56

this is brand new as of that

1:01:58

week the newest sonicare toothbrush has an

1:02:00

app which I cannot believe they are

1:02:03

convinced. me to use. You do have

1:02:05

an electric toothbrush? I have a Phillips

1:02:07

sonica. Okay, so you have Asana Care.

1:02:09

So you know how it does like

1:02:11

the little boop-boop, right? And it's like,

1:02:13

so you're brushing your teeth and then

1:02:16

it goes like boop-boop and you're supposed

1:02:18

to move on to the next zone?

1:02:20

Yeah, okay. I wasn't sure if you

1:02:22

meant the boop-boop for the zone or

1:02:24

the boop-boop for too hard. Well, yeah,

1:02:26

there's also a little boop-boop for too

1:02:29

hard. Well, yeah, there's also, there's also

1:02:31

boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-boop-for too hard. For too hard. For

1:02:33

too hard. For too hard. For too

1:02:35

hard. For too hard. Well, for too

1:02:37

hard. Well, for too hard. Well, for

1:02:39

too hard. Like I sort of vaguely

1:02:42

knew that there were like, oh, the

1:02:44

boop, boop, means you're supposed to move

1:02:46

to a different zone. And I've used

1:02:48

like Sonic Cares to Phillips' toothbrushes for

1:02:50

years. And I just made up my

1:02:52

own zones. I'm like, oh, I have

1:02:55

this. I start here, then I move

1:02:57

to here, like, I start here, then

1:02:59

I move to here, and I have

1:03:01

my own little process based on, I

1:03:03

don't know, the intervals that he's giving

1:03:05

me, I'll, I'll, son of care toothbrush

1:03:08

because I need to replace my old

1:03:10

one. And the instructions was really pushing

1:03:12

the app and I thought, okay, let

1:03:14

me just like give this a try

1:03:16

just out of pure curiosity. And so

1:03:18

I was like, okay, number one, now

1:03:21

I know what the zones are supposed

1:03:23

to be. But the thing that I

1:03:25

actually thought was like worth trying for

1:03:27

a while is that if you're brushing

1:03:29

the teeth with the app. it's actually

1:03:31

able to keep track of how long

1:03:34

and how hard are you really pressing

1:03:36

in each of the zones that it

1:03:38

wants? It's like it can tell which

1:03:40

way the toothbrush is angled and if

1:03:42

you're going along with the zones it

1:03:45

then knows like are you doing the

1:03:47

front or the back of the teeth

1:03:49

and Interestingly, like, it's keeping track basically

1:03:51

of, is there some area that you're

1:03:53

always giving, like, slightly short attention to?

1:03:55

And then every once in a while,

1:03:58

it does like, hey, you should do

1:04:00

a makeup session, and it will tell

1:04:02

you, like, just spend 30 seconds right

1:04:04

here. It's like, I just, I think

1:04:06

that's interesting. This is funny. I explicitly

1:04:08

have a the one that comes to

1:04:11

the app. Because I'm just like, I

1:04:13

don't want an app from my toothbrush.

1:04:15

Like I just don't, I really don't

1:04:17

want that. So I agree, I'm not

1:04:19

sure that I'm going to keep doing

1:04:21

this going forward, but I thought, you

1:04:24

know what, I am going to give

1:04:26

this a try and just like see

1:04:28

it for a little while. I think

1:04:30

the biggest problem though is just realizing

1:04:32

how. When I'm brushing my teeth, I

1:04:34

want to be on my phone doing

1:04:37

literally anything else than looking at the...

1:04:39

toothbrushing app is like fundamentally the conflict

1:04:41

of like what do I want to

1:04:43

be doing? It's like oh I want

1:04:45

to be going through my like morning

1:04:47

routine checklist or like I want to

1:04:50

be listening to a podcast like I

1:04:52

want to be doing something else. It

1:04:54

made me kind of realize how much

1:04:56

brushing my teeth was totally on autopilot.

1:04:58

Like I never really want to think

1:05:00

about this task at all. So I've

1:05:03

given this a little bit of a

1:05:05

try but I'm not 100% sure that

1:05:07

this will be like forever going forward

1:05:09

in the future but As far as

1:05:11

toothbrushing apps go, I think it's about

1:05:13

as good as it could be. So

1:05:16

what we do know is that you

1:05:18

spend 50 minutes a week brushing your

1:05:20

teeth? Two minutes, twice a day, times

1:05:22

seven. Oh, I guess, actually, I guess

1:05:24

that's not that far off, yeah. So

1:05:26

do you have to have the app

1:05:29

open while you're brushing? That is the

1:05:31

killer. That's what I mean, but I

1:05:33

want to be doing something else. I

1:05:35

want you to do is... The way

1:05:37

YouTube could let you play like a

1:05:39

little video on screen while you're doing

1:05:42

something else, that's what I want this

1:05:44

app to functionally do. Like show a

1:05:46

little video on screen of what you

1:05:48

want me to do so I can

1:05:50

also be doing something else because I

1:05:52

do feel like that toothbrushing app. It's

1:05:55

really cuckblocking every other app on my

1:05:57

phone while I'm brushing my teeth. So

1:05:59

don't love that. I love that Asana

1:06:01

is your most used app for the

1:06:03

last week. I mean it really ties

1:06:05

up what you were talking about earlier

1:06:08

on. I think that's amazing. Yeah, so...

1:06:10

Ideally, this shouldn't be the case, right?

1:06:12

This is like setup week. This is

1:06:14

where I was really realizing like trying

1:06:16

to get the iPhone app to work

1:06:18

the way I want to display in

1:06:21

widgets, like the things that I want

1:06:23

in the particular order. It's functionally not

1:06:25

really possible without just like a lot

1:06:27

of work, which again, I may be

1:06:29

able to automate through rules, but probably

1:06:31

not. Ideally your task manager should not

1:06:34

be the top thing on your phone.

1:06:36

It should maybe be like top one

1:06:38

or two for pickups, but it shouldn't

1:06:40

be like this many hours. But this

1:06:42

is entirely the like, oh, I had

1:06:44

my computer open and I'm making changes

1:06:47

and then I'm keeping the phone open

1:06:49

and seeing like, oh, how does that

1:06:51

update in the app? Because they're just

1:06:53

like weirdly different. How does this look

1:06:55

in the widget? So that's why that's

1:06:57

there, but that's not the way it

1:07:00

should be like permanently going permanently going

1:07:02

forward going forward. is how I have

1:07:04

117 pickups of messages and you have

1:07:06

115. Then that just doesn't feel like...

1:07:08

That can't be possible. It should be

1:07:10

the case for both of us because...

1:07:13

I get the impression you just don't

1:07:15

use messages for days. So I don't

1:07:17

know what you're doing over there. It's

1:07:19

either way under counting yours or way

1:07:21

over counting mine in some way? I

1:07:23

don't know. Because that doesn't make any

1:07:26

sense. I mean, because again, we now

1:07:28

have like the actual numerical measurement here

1:07:30

that I am like one quarter as

1:07:32

popular as you. So I should not

1:07:34

be picking up messages as frequently as

1:07:36

you. No, no, no, remember, remember, as

1:07:39

I said that is overcounting for multiple

1:07:41

devices. have all those group threads that

1:07:43

you're also muting right? So I'm at

1:07:45

least one quarter as popular as you

1:07:47

so I think this I don't understand

1:07:49

that number either just looking on my

1:07:52

iPhone for last week six hundred and

1:07:54

thirty seven messages a hundred and fourteen

1:07:56

pickups you are at six hundred and

1:07:58

fifty seven messages a hundred and fifteen

1:08:00

pickups did I accidentally screenshot your phone

1:08:03

for my pickups and no I don't

1:08:05

understand at all how they could be

1:08:07

so close like the fact that you're

1:08:09

using messages of me as much as

1:08:11

me I don't know who you're texting

1:08:13

it ain't me but there's also something

1:08:16

funny about that of like that 650

1:08:18

number to about 110 pickups like there's

1:08:20

like a correlation there that must be

1:08:22

like just a standard number for pickup

1:08:24

to notification ratio that occurs between people

1:08:26

I guess so, I don't know, yeah.

1:08:29

There's something statistically significant about that one,

1:08:31

I guess, considering the fact that we

1:08:33

use messages, I think, very differently, but

1:08:35

yet, notification to pick up ratios. That's

1:08:37

very weird. That is very, very, very

1:08:39

weird. Yeah, the only thing I can

1:08:42

think of that might, it still seems

1:08:44

like it's overcounting, but I functionally don't

1:08:46

use messages anywhere other than my phone,

1:08:48

like I've turned it off. Never ever

1:08:50

interacting with it anywhere other than the

1:08:52

phone, which might be like falsely pushing

1:08:55

a bunch of activity here that you

1:08:57

have distributed across more things That's true.

1:08:59

It still feels very wrong and I

1:09:01

wasn't even thinking about it like looking

1:09:03

at the screen time like four hours

1:09:05

of messages also seems very wrong, but

1:09:08

I don't know whatever. What was my

1:09:10

time in messages? Three hours 13 minutes.

1:09:12

You're just like texting up a storm

1:09:14

these days. That's what I'm recognizing I

1:09:16

think I screenshotted your phone, I think

1:09:18

that's what happened. Well, no, the reason

1:09:21

I know is because it's your phone,

1:09:23

is because Slack-em-em is still in there.

1:09:25

I can't believe you're still using that.

1:09:27

Why would I ever change that? One,

1:09:29

I'm just very surprised that it's to

1:09:31

exist. So this is the enterprise version

1:09:34

of Slack that you can sign in

1:09:36

to any slack account with, right? You're

1:09:38

just right signed into a regular slack.

1:09:40

It's not an enterprise slack. Yeah. So

1:09:42

you end up with two slacks that

1:09:44

you can control individually. It's incredible. I

1:09:47

can't believe that that is still a

1:09:49

thing that exists. You know what? I

1:09:51

am realizing though. I should probably change

1:09:53

that. So I originally did this to

1:09:55

have like my gray industry slack separate

1:09:57

from the notifications for the court. tech

1:10:00

slack, but I realize like, I don't

1:10:02

think actually now the settings are

1:10:04

different anymore. Like I think both of

1:10:06

them are just doing the same thing

1:10:08

that go in notification center. So I

1:10:10

should probably just have it in one

1:10:13

because it is annoying enough times that

1:10:15

I'm opening slack and then I want to

1:10:17

go to the other one, so I should

1:10:19

probably change that. And also I think since

1:10:21

we first spoke about this, slack

1:10:24

has put in more native

1:10:26

notification management than they would have

1:10:28

had them. Yes, you know, I

1:10:30

was like, yeah, what else has

1:10:32

changed? That is the other thing.

1:10:34

They've gotten way better and the

1:10:36

ability to do that. Okay, I'm

1:10:38

deleting Slack EEMM off my phone

1:10:41

right now. Well, don't forget to

1:10:43

sign into the other Slack account,

1:10:45

though. Done. That is the end

1:10:47

of the task. Absolutely, nothing else

1:10:49

to do. It's just, that was

1:10:51

the last time we ever heard

1:10:53

from him. Have you ever woken

1:10:56

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1:10:58

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1:11:02

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all of Relay. The

1:12:33

paternity clock. It's ticking. Oh boy,

1:12:35

is it ticking. So this is my

1:12:37

last episode that people will hear

1:12:39

before my paternity begins. Me and you

1:12:41

are actually pre -recording an episode, which

1:12:43

by the way, it's going to

1:12:45

be a book club. I might so

1:12:47

say that now. We're going to

1:12:49

do how to win friends and influence

1:12:51

people. So that is going

1:12:54

to be the next episode of Cortex,

1:12:56

which will be out sometime

1:12:58

in March, whenever I can find the time

1:13:00

to post it. Yeah. Give it a read.

1:13:02

Probably the most Famous self -help

1:13:04

book, maybe? I don't know. It's like

1:13:06

it's got to be up there and like

1:13:08

the top more than seven habits. I

1:13:11

think more people would have name recognition for

1:13:13

how to win friends and influence people in

1:13:15

seven habits. Seven habits might be better for

1:13:17

the business people, but I feel like general

1:13:19

populace, how to win friends and influence people's

1:13:21

got to be more name recognition. I am

1:13:23

very aware of the title of the book

1:13:25

and are very aware of the book having

1:13:27

existed. I think of all of the

1:13:29

books that we are reading. It is the

1:13:32

one that I Even knowing the

1:13:34

title is what I do. I have no

1:13:36

idea what this book is actually about. Oh,

1:13:38

interesting. Okay. Like, I can make a guess

1:13:40

based on the title. What would that guess

1:13:42

be, Mike? What do you think the book

1:13:44

about? I don't really know how that translates

1:13:46

to a book in a way, right? Like,

1:13:48

because the title would suggest to me is

1:13:51

it is about kind of manipulating people, I think,

1:13:53

but like, I don't know if that's what

1:13:55

the book's gonna be about. So I'm intrigued to

1:13:57

find out. So that's gonna be our next

1:13:59

episode. Wow. So cynical, is actually the final

1:14:01

podcast I will record before my paternity

1:14:03

leave. Oh, I'm last in line with

1:14:05

that one. I didn't realize, okay, so

1:14:08

nothing else afterward. Did you really expect

1:14:10

that you wouldn't be, realistically? I mean,

1:14:12

I guess that does seem kind of

1:14:14

inevitable. Yeah, I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm

1:14:16

just happy that we do have a

1:14:18

plan to pre-record something, you know? So

1:14:21

my paternity leave. in the way in

1:14:23

which it will be is planned to

1:14:25

be about an eight week span. Okay.

1:14:27

So this will be two weeks where

1:14:29

I don't really want to hear from

1:14:32

anyone and that is kind of like

1:14:34

from when the baby is born not

1:14:36

the first two weeks of my paternity

1:14:38

leave because my expectation will be I

1:14:40

will probably have about a week of

1:14:42

paternity leave where the baby isn't here

1:14:45

and that's just kind of like the...

1:14:47

final preparation time and also the true

1:14:49

danger window. Oh I see right okay

1:14:51

yeah you know different people do it

1:14:53

in different ways but because I'm affording

1:14:55

myself such a long period of time

1:14:58

I am going to give myself a

1:15:00

little bit of time beforehand you know

1:15:02

I'm going to do a full deep

1:15:04

clean of the house you're clearing the

1:15:06

way for babies exactly yeah and like

1:15:08

we're doing stuff like that now but

1:15:11

this will be the all right the

1:15:13

final final final things before I'm going

1:15:15

to take care of them in those

1:15:17

few days. And then I will have,

1:15:19

I'm expecting probably four weeks that I'm

1:15:22

calling like with contact and then maybe

1:15:24

a week or two of kind of

1:15:26

like staging back in. Now the biggest

1:15:28

thing though for this whole period of

1:15:30

time is I won't be recording podcasts.

1:15:32

That is the, I mean as we

1:15:35

know from my time tracking, my biggest

1:15:37

time. allocated is to the preparation recording

1:15:39

and editing of podcasts. So this would

1:15:41

give me most of my time back.

1:15:43

It's also the thing that takes me

1:15:45

out of the house. the most which

1:15:48

I don't want to be doing during

1:15:50

this time so that is the thing

1:15:52

and then I will be keeping in

1:15:54

touch with various endeavors there'll be the

1:15:56

occasional meeting that will still be attending

1:15:58

like during the kind of like four

1:16:01

weeks with contact in the week or

1:16:03

two of staging back in. The staging

1:16:05

back in will probably include recording, some

1:16:07

podcasts, but not all of them. But

1:16:09

that is a very nebulous thing. This

1:16:12

is a thing that a bunch of

1:16:14

friends recommended I do, but really it's

1:16:16

like, will this occur at week six

1:16:18

or will this recur actually at week

1:16:20

eight and maybe, you know, some stuff

1:16:22

doesn't start again until like week nine?

1:16:25

I don't know yet. That's crazy. I

1:16:27

was like, bang, let's go. Like, because

1:16:29

that's just how my brain works. It

1:16:31

didn't even cross my mind that you

1:16:33

could do that. Oh boy. Incorrect, Mike.

1:16:35

I'm glad you have been correctly advised

1:16:38

on this to stage a back in.

1:16:40

Am I going to be last out

1:16:42

first back in? Is that the way

1:16:44

it's going to work for cortex? You

1:16:46

might be first back in, yeah. I'm

1:16:48

not sure yet, though, because I really

1:16:51

don't know what the end part of

1:16:53

this entire process for me. Being self-employed,

1:16:55

I'm just working this out on my

1:16:57

own, right? Like, why eight weeks? Because

1:16:59

that felt like a good number. It

1:17:02

was also my opening gambit and everybody

1:17:04

agreed which I couldn't believe and I

1:17:06

was so happy about. Like, I was

1:17:08

just like, well, six would be nice.

1:17:10

I guess I'll start with eight and

1:17:12

like, you know, like a negotiation, but

1:17:15

all of my colleagues, like, yeah, of

1:17:17

course, take as much time as you

1:17:19

want. I was like, I'll take as

1:17:21

much time as you one time as

1:17:23

you one time as you one as

1:17:25

you. But I knew what I wanted

1:17:28

and what I wanted was as much

1:17:30

time as seemed realistic This is a

1:17:32

very important thing for me to be

1:17:34

able to spend as much time as

1:17:36

I can in the beginning of building

1:17:38

my family And there was also this

1:17:41

thing in my mind, which was if

1:17:43

I can't take a really long time,

1:17:45

kind of what was the point of

1:17:47

doing all of this? Yes. Why build

1:17:49

your own career for a decade if

1:17:52

you then can't take an opportunity like

1:17:54

this? You know? And there was a

1:17:56

part of me that was like, you

1:17:58

deserve this. You have gotten yourself to

1:18:00

a point where you can do this,

1:18:02

so you should do this. Oh yeah,

1:18:05

100%. I feel like we talked about

1:18:07

this in the very early days of

1:18:09

cortex, but that... the danger of being

1:18:11

a self-employed person, which does happen to

1:18:13

most self-employed people, is that you end

1:18:15

up just building this kind of cage

1:18:18

for yourself that in many ways can

1:18:20

be much worse than the job that

1:18:22

you left if you were trying to

1:18:24

do it for like freedom reasons, is

1:18:26

like, oh boy, you can be the

1:18:28

person that everything hinges on and now

1:18:31

you can never take breaks and like,

1:18:33

you have to be so careful in

1:18:35

constructing your career to be able to

1:18:37

do that. And it's like, yeah. If

1:18:39

you are able to do that bike,

1:18:42

it's like 100% that is because you

1:18:44

have made that possible and like this

1:18:46

is the time to take advantage of

1:18:48

it if there ever is time. Yep.

1:18:50

And I am just I consider myself

1:18:52

to be incredibly lucky that I am

1:18:55

surrounded by the most supportive co-workers and

1:18:57

that everyone is just making it work.

1:18:59

I am also doing my best to

1:19:01

just trust everybody that it will all

1:19:03

be done. Which is not my natural

1:19:05

way of feeling. No, it is not.

1:19:08

You know, we all have pride in

1:19:10

the work that we do, and part

1:19:12

of the pride that I have is

1:19:14

that everything is done as well as

1:19:16

it can be on time. And I

1:19:18

feel like for projects to work that

1:19:21

way, everybody kind of has to agree

1:19:23

on that. Like, part of my role

1:19:25

in a lot of the shows that

1:19:27

I have, and a lot of the

1:19:29

projects that I have, is the person

1:19:32

who make sure that this is done,

1:19:34

that is done and gets it complete

1:19:36

and it's not the case of all

1:19:38

of my projects because Stephen is more

1:19:40

that person than me so like on

1:19:42

Connected he does all of that but

1:19:45

on my other shows I tend to

1:19:47

be like the driving force the producing

1:19:49

force and so for that time period

1:19:51

I'm kind of like handing everything over

1:19:53

to my co-hosts and I trust that

1:19:55

they will get it done because I

1:19:58

know it's important to them too but

1:20:00

Typically, say I'm away and something is

1:20:02

happening, I will kind of be checking

1:20:04

in on it, you know? Or like

1:20:06

keeping my eye on it. Yeah. But

1:20:08

I am choosing for this time period.

1:20:11

I know everyone can handle this and

1:20:13

I am going to turn my attention

1:20:15

to the thing that is more important

1:20:17

to me during this time. Yeah, but

1:20:19

that's not easy when you've been the

1:20:22

de facto project manager for most of

1:20:24

the podcast that you're working on. I'm

1:20:26

going to be really interested to kind

1:20:28

of like debrief with everyone of like

1:20:30

how this time was for them. Like

1:20:32

I was talking to Jason the other

1:20:35

day and he was like, he was

1:20:37

very sweet, he said, but I'm going

1:20:39

to miss you. He said something along

1:20:41

the lines of I think I'm going

1:20:43

to realize how much, like in doing

1:20:45

everything, kind of realizing what we both

1:20:48

bring to the table, which I thought

1:20:50

was very funny. I mean, I do

1:20:52

want to ask because the thing that

1:20:54

caught my attention straight my attention straight

1:20:56

away, This is a very strong statement

1:20:59

for Mike. No contact. I was like,

1:21:01

what are the boundaries of that? What

1:21:03

do you really mean? Like, no no

1:21:05

contact with anyone? Like, what does that

1:21:07

mean to you? Because that is a

1:21:09

very strong statement. For those two weeks,

1:21:12

I don't want to hear from anybody

1:21:14

that I work with unless it is

1:21:16

an absolutely critical emergency. Okay. Like, there

1:21:18

are other people that can answer questions.

1:21:20

If they can get, then you can

1:21:22

get to me. Okay. And I feel

1:21:25

like it's important to be that strong

1:21:27

because then it makes people question if

1:21:29

something truly is an emergency. I kind

1:21:31

of want people to just work out

1:21:33

on their own because it's unlikely you're

1:21:35

going to hear from me. anyway, you

1:21:38

know, like even if you've got something

1:21:40

you want to say to me, that

1:21:42

time period, I just, there is only

1:21:44

one thing I want to be focusing

1:21:46

on, and I want to put all

1:21:49

of my energy into that. and I

1:21:51

don't want to be thinking about work.

1:21:53

I would suggest if you haven't thought

1:21:55

of this already, that this is a

1:21:57

good time to have your assistant act

1:21:59

as the firewall. Yes, we're doing something

1:22:02

like that. Great, right, because it's like,

1:22:04

ah, if she's the first point of

1:22:06

contact, I think it helps just put

1:22:08

a little bit more resistance to people

1:22:10

just messaging you. Yes, so let me

1:22:12

explain how this is going to work.

1:22:15

So for relay, it's not needed, because

1:22:17

there is an infrastructure. that already exists

1:22:19

and everybody knows. Like no one's gonna

1:22:21

need me, right? Like they know they

1:22:23

can go to Stephen, they know they

1:22:25

can go to Kerry, they know they

1:22:28

can go to Kathy and realistically most

1:22:30

of the time people would go to

1:22:32

one of those three before me anyway

1:22:34

for most things. So like for relay

1:22:36

it's not so much of a thing.

1:22:39

For cortex brand, that is the way

1:22:41

it's gonna work that everyone's gonna go

1:22:43

to my assistant and also something that

1:22:45

is gonna be happening which... When it

1:22:47

was originally pitched to me was a

1:22:49

horrifying idea, but I really came around

1:22:52

to it quite quickly is my assistant

1:22:54

is going to be managing my email

1:22:56

from my paternity leave Great, so she

1:22:58

will have my email logins and will

1:23:00

be looking at it a few times

1:23:02

a day Triaging it and she will

1:23:05

then if like something appears to be

1:23:07

urgent come reach out to me But

1:23:09

by and large it will be triaged

1:23:11

she will put in slack things that

1:23:13

maybe I want to know if I

1:23:15

want to just go and have a

1:23:18

look right like rather than open the

1:23:20

email but then whenever I do get

1:23:22

to my email there will be just

1:23:24

the stuff that is important for me

1:23:26

to see even if it's not necessarily

1:23:29

urgent but is important so that is

1:23:31

like a big part of it but

1:23:33

realistically everyone in Cortex Brown will know

1:23:35

they can go to her and she

1:23:37

will get to me if it's needed

1:23:39

or just collect things up and with

1:23:42

relay the structure is already well in

1:23:44

place and that realistically these days people

1:23:46

they don't need me for this kind

1:23:48

of stuff like everyone's pretty self-sufficient anyway

1:23:50

and typically if something urgent is needed

1:23:52

it's very rarely me that has the

1:23:55

answers anyway it's like if it's technical

1:23:57

Stephen is doing it if it's ads

1:23:59

Kerry is doing it and there's the

1:24:01

two most urgent categories yeah but then

1:24:03

like that's one said the urgent things

1:24:05

then are like something quite bad is

1:24:08

happening, you know? And these things can

1:24:10

happen, they do happen, and I will

1:24:12

just hope that they don't happen while

1:24:14

I'm on my paternity leave. It was

1:24:16

funny that there was something similar. So

1:24:19

Stephen took a sabbatical earlier this year.

1:24:21

In part because I was going to

1:24:23

be taking a break, and so it

1:24:25

felt good to be able to give

1:24:27

him some time too, after the podcast

1:24:29

of Thumbry really put a lot into

1:24:32

it last year. And I think within

1:24:34

three or four days, our entire website

1:24:36

broke. The whole thing. The whole thing.

1:24:38

It was just 100% unresponsive. And I

1:24:40

know a few things to do. Poor

1:24:42

Stephen. Poor Stephen. That's terrible. And I

1:24:45

went in and I was like rebooting

1:24:47

things and like, you know, I was

1:24:49

trying my best and I have reached

1:24:51

out to him. And luckily, he didn't

1:24:53

even know what needed to be done

1:24:55

in that scenario. And so then we

1:24:58

got a developer involved and it was

1:25:00

like a, it was just a random

1:25:02

chance that like an updated failed on

1:25:04

the server kind of thing. But it

1:25:06

was like I felt so bad like

1:25:09

I tried so hard to fix it

1:25:11

and I couldn't fix it. But like

1:25:13

there are things like that could happen

1:25:15

but in the reverse I don't know

1:25:17

what they would be but like some

1:25:19

kind of big business issue which you

1:25:22

know is a decision that Stephen would

1:25:24

probably not make on his own and

1:25:26

would at least want me to know

1:25:28

about it. how important this is to

1:25:30

me and it's important to him that

1:25:32

I can take this time so it

1:25:35

would have to be. to kind of

1:25:37

cross my path, but we'll see. I

1:25:39

mean, for the majority of the time

1:25:41

that I'll be away, I'm gonna be

1:25:43

checking in with people and answering questions,

1:25:45

and it'll just be on like a

1:25:48

weird schedule, you know, like people could

1:25:50

send me stuff and I'll get back

1:25:52

to them when I can. Cortex brand

1:25:54

is probably where the majority of my

1:25:56

work will go during. my paternity leave

1:25:59

just because it needs more decisions right

1:26:01

now because it's new and it's likely

1:26:03

we're going to be launching our pocket

1:26:05

notebooks during my paternity leave which is

1:26:07

a decision that I'm made that I

1:26:09

want to do it during that time

1:26:12

period because if this is going to

1:26:14

be the year of products we have

1:26:16

to actually launch the products and so

1:26:18

that is going to be happening during

1:26:20

the time. but obviously towards the end.

1:26:22

I feel like I would strong push

1:26:25

to defer that to the phase back

1:26:27

in two weeks period. That's probably just

1:26:29

when it's going to end up being,

1:26:31

like just based on chipping and stuff

1:26:33

like that. Like it's going to be

1:26:35

in April for sure. Then it's just

1:26:38

kind of like when is everything ready.

1:26:40

But luckily it's good in a way

1:26:42

because with the way that things are

1:26:44

timing up. It means there is work

1:26:46

for everyone to do while I'm away.

1:26:49

You know, images to be taken, copy

1:26:51

to be written, like stuff that everyone

1:26:53

can just be getting on with, which

1:26:55

is all of the things around a

1:26:57

new product launch, and that I can

1:26:59

then start reviewing as I'm kind of

1:27:02

about a bit more, you know, like

1:27:04

things that are a bit more asynchronous,

1:27:06

and we can kind of take our

1:27:08

time with it. Like we're not on

1:27:10

a time crunch. All of the pieces

1:27:12

can be put into place for when

1:27:15

I return. They're working on hours, right?

1:27:17

So like they're billing us for their

1:27:19

time and something that I was nervous

1:27:21

about in Like you know months and

1:27:23

months ago was I didn't want my

1:27:26

paternity leave to result in Nobody being

1:27:28

able to bill any hours, right? Yeah,

1:27:30

you don't want to be the blocker

1:27:32

for absolutely everybody. Yeah, no and so

1:27:34

I'm really happy that we have this

1:27:36

like project of getting all of the

1:27:39

collateral together for a new product for

1:27:41

happening while I'm gone because everyone will

1:27:43

be having things that they can get

1:27:45

on with without me needing to be

1:27:47

there and that you know then eventually

1:27:49

everybody presents what they've got and then

1:27:52

I can do the approvals and the

1:27:54

approval stuff or like the feedback stuff

1:27:56

that doesn't take too much time. The

1:27:58

time has actually been getting to this

1:28:00

point. you know putting brace together and

1:28:02

like getting all the products together and

1:28:05

I can set it out to all

1:28:07

of our creative people that we were

1:28:09

giving and they can go ahead and

1:28:11

put something together for us so like

1:28:13

I think that's I'm happy that I've

1:28:16

gotten this project to this point before

1:28:18

the leave begins. You just reminded me

1:28:20

and I am assigning it to you

1:28:22

right now. template in the cortex brand

1:28:24

Asana for product launching. So while you're

1:28:26

doing this, just going to put that

1:28:29

in there for you to just like

1:28:31

throw in the rough steps as we're

1:28:33

doing it this way, this new way

1:28:35

the first time and like we'll organize

1:28:37

it later, but this is just like

1:28:39

a place to start capturing like what

1:28:42

do you want to have happen in

1:28:44

what order and when. So yeah, there's

1:28:46

something assigned to you right now in

1:28:48

Asana while you were thinking about it.

1:28:50

Yeah, might as well do this for

1:28:52

the pockets. It's like our little product

1:28:55

launch. It's like it's the perfect one

1:28:57

to start with. And yeah, if you're

1:28:59

going to do it for the phasing

1:29:01

back in time, we need to get

1:29:03

on this. Love it. So aside from

1:29:06

the thing that I have just assigned

1:29:08

you, though, how do you feel about

1:29:10

clearing your calendar like this? I mean,

1:29:12

this has got to be like the

1:29:14

biggest... No work intentionally time you've had

1:29:16

like since the start of relay since

1:29:19

the start of working maybe I don't

1:29:21

even know yeah It's got to be

1:29:23

like your absolute biggest break. How are

1:29:25

you feeling about it? Yeah, the biggest

1:29:27

break I had before this was my

1:29:29

honeymoon which was two weeks. After that

1:29:32

I then like you know every year

1:29:34

will take like a week or two

1:29:36

that will be completely away from work

1:29:38

and I'll take up a break and

1:29:40

stuff. So one I would say I'm

1:29:42

really looking forward to having the opportunity

1:29:45

to detach from work and the news

1:29:47

cycle for the period of time that

1:29:49

I'm gonna have. I think it's gonna

1:29:51

be a good refresh for me for

1:29:53

when I come back. What I'm looking

1:29:56

forward to is like the way I'm

1:29:58

gonna get news. about the topics I

1:30:00

care about is by listening to the

1:30:02

podcasts that I'm not on. I think

1:30:04

it will be fun. So I'm not

1:30:06

going to read like RSS during my

1:30:09

paternity, but I will listen to upgrade,

1:30:11

I will listen to Connected, right? Like

1:30:13

I'll listen to the pan addict and

1:30:15

we'll hear... What is happening that way

1:30:17

which I'm looking for I'm actually really

1:30:19

looking forward to that will be fun.

1:30:22

That's a funny thought Yeah, you get

1:30:24

to experience the show as a real

1:30:26

listener does which I always get one

1:30:28

on vacation But even one on vacation.

1:30:30

I'm still kind of like keeping up

1:30:32

a little more, but this time it's

1:30:35

like gone It's like that's not the

1:30:37

same. Yeah. You're still doing more the

1:30:39

biggest fear that I have or like

1:30:41

the biggest concern I have from my

1:30:43

work during this time is like More

1:30:46

of like an imposter syndrome me thing.

1:30:48

It's gonna be a long time on

1:30:50

my weekly shows where I'm not there

1:30:52

And it's like well people prefer it

1:30:54

That's what I gave in my head

1:30:56

I mean, I don't know if you

1:30:59

could hear the sound of me rolling

1:31:01

my eyes at the words imposter syndrome.

1:31:03

I don't know patients for this concept.

1:31:05

What your real fear here is replacement

1:31:07

syndrome, right? That's what your fear is.

1:31:09

Yeah, like people were like, oh, I

1:31:12

much prefer it without Mike or I

1:31:14

much prefer to show with this guest

1:31:16

or that guest. And this comes from

1:31:18

the fact that like, sometimes when I'm

1:31:20

away, people say these things. And I

1:31:22

get it, right. there are maybe certain

1:31:25

pairings that you prefer. I don't think

1:31:27

everybody has to like me. Like I'm

1:31:29

not unrealistic, right, in the way that

1:31:31

I think about the content that I

1:31:33

make, because I'm also a consumer of

1:31:36

content too, and I have preferences about

1:31:38

the... or the people that are as

1:31:40

part of projects that I like and

1:31:42

don't like, you know, I get that.

1:31:44

Yeah, it's just like a weird thing.

1:31:46

It's like a long time. And I

1:31:49

know that that's gonna be in there.

1:31:51

Or maybe I won't care, I don't

1:31:53

know. But it is something that I

1:31:55

am nervous about a little bit, because

1:31:57

it's like a weird thing to do

1:31:59

to take such a long time away

1:32:02

from these creative projects. Yeah. I mean,

1:32:04

I think you do have the different

1:32:06

problem of you will actually be. Subbed

1:32:08

in so I yeah for rolling my

1:32:10

eyes at imposter syndrome It's like I

1:32:12

do get it and of course given

1:32:15

the way that the internet is everyone

1:32:17

will tell you their opinion on everything

1:32:19

and like with an audience size large

1:32:21

enough You will hear every version of

1:32:23

everything which will hear every version of

1:32:26

everything which means like yep You're gonna

1:32:28

hear from the people who are like

1:32:30

I like the new guy better. That's

1:32:32

just going to happen, but it is

1:32:34

the sheer way that these things go

1:32:36

I know I'm gonna have so many

1:32:39

people people are going to be like,

1:32:41

oh, I'm so happy you're back. But

1:32:43

there will be like three people who

1:32:45

will email me and be like, stay

1:32:47

away forever. And they're the only ones

1:32:49

I'm going to think about. But like,

1:32:52

I know this, but the thing is

1:32:54

I've been on the internet for too

1:32:56

long that I know that it will

1:32:58

bug me for a day or two,

1:33:00

but I've just like hardened overtime. I'm

1:33:02

kind of just like, hey. So what?