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Bank National Association member FDIC. This

1:35

is episode six. Jurisprudence.

1:43

Monday, March 9th, 2020 was a big day. This

1:47

week we'll be hearing the Forsyth

1:49

County cases of State versus Christopher

1:51

Bryant. State versus Nathaniel Cawthon.

1:55

State versus Jamal Talibard.

1:57

And State versus Raishon Banner. The

2:01

eight-member panel of the North Carolina

2:03

Innocence Inquiry Commission was officially convened.

2:06

Good morning, Commissioners. This case

2:08

involves the November 15, 2002 robbery. After

2:12

nearly five years of digging into

2:14

the case, which included dozens of

2:17

depositions, testing the physical evidence for

2:19

DNA, and getting Jessica Black's recantation,

2:22

everything that had been done behind closed doors

2:24

was finally going to come into the light.

2:27

The new evidence uncovered by the Commission

2:29

staff will be presented throughout this hearing,

2:32

along with all relevant evidence for your

2:34

consideration. The hearing

2:36

was scheduled to last five days,

2:38

and the eight members included a

2:40

sheriff, a judge, a prosecutor, criminal

2:42

defense attorneys, a few citizens, and

2:44

victims' advocates. The

2:47

panel members didn't hold the power to

2:49

exonerate Christopher, Jamal, Nathaniel, and Rachon. They

2:51

could only decide whether any new evidence

2:54

discovered in the years since the criminal

2:56

trials was sufficient enough to move the

2:58

case into the Commission's next and final

3:00

phase. A three-judge panel

3:03

hearing. At

3:06

the end of this hearing, you will be

3:08

asked to determine whether there is sufficient evidence

3:10

of factual innocence to merit judicial review. Only

3:13

at that point would exoneration become a

3:15

possibility for the men. Before

3:17

things got underway, Jim O'Neill, the current

3:20

district attorney of Forsyth County, sent a

3:22

lengthy report to the panel voicing that

3:24

he was against the Commission considering the

3:26

men's innocence claims. He

3:29

said that because administrators had decided to

3:31

move the case into the formal inquiry

3:33

stage and not reject the men's applications

3:35

at the very start, in his opinion,

3:38

that clearly communicated they'd taken a side on

3:40

the matter in favor of the defendants.

3:43

Which, by the way, wasn't true, but

3:45

that's how the DA saw it. He

3:48

also accused the organization's investigators and

3:51

executive director of having confirmation bias,

3:53

which they denied in the strongest

3:55

of terms. According to

3:58

the Commission's website, they are and

4:00

always have been a completely neutral

4:02

agency, created by the state's General

4:04

Assembly for the sole purpose of

4:07

investigating innocence claims. Like

4:09

I said in the last episode, their

4:11

vetting process is extremely thorough and most

4:13

applicants are rejected. However,

4:15

the commission has actually exonerated 15

4:18

individuals who were wrongfully convicted, so

4:21

the process has proven itself successful

4:23

to some degree. Defense

4:26

attorneys Chris Muma, Brad Bannon, and Mark

4:28

Rabel, who'd been kept mostly in the

4:30

dark prior to the eight-member panel proceeding,

4:32

weren't surprised by the district attorney's critical

4:35

comments. It was par for the course

4:37

for a prosecutor like Jim O'Neill. They've

4:40

got their finality. They are

4:42

too arrogant to want to risk

4:45

being proven wrong. I

4:47

would never want to be a

4:49

police officer or a prosecutor who

4:51

thought for one second that they

4:54

had participated in the investigation,

4:56

prosecution, conviction, and incarceration of an

4:58

innocent person. I would never want

5:00

to believe that. But I also

5:02

think that when you have the

5:05

kind of power that police officers

5:07

and particularly prosecutors have in our

5:09

system of criminal justice, you always

5:11

have to be open to it,

5:14

always. We are

5:16

watching the state of North Carolina

5:18

defend convictions that could

5:20

never occur in this day and age

5:22

in 2024. I

5:26

spoke with a representative for Jim O'Neill's

5:28

office, but they declined my request

5:30

for an interview. The

5:33

case is still in litigation, so

5:35

our office is sort of strapped about

5:37

speaking about it, or

5:42

even- That was a bummer, because I

5:45

read an O'Neill's bio on the county's website

5:47

that he started out his legal career in

5:49

the Forsyth County DA's office in 1997, just

5:52

five years before this crime occurred. And

5:55

he's been working there ever since, so he

5:57

knows the case well. Despite

6:00

O'Neill's disapproval of the Innocence Inquiry

6:02

Commission reviewing the defendant's claims, he

6:04

had zero authority over the matter.

6:07

So the March 2020 hearing continued

6:09

full steam ahead. The

6:11

four big things the commission staff planned to

6:13

present to the panel were, DNA

6:17

results from critical items of evidence which

6:19

had been tested all these years later

6:21

as part of the commission's investigation. Jessica's

6:25

new testimony, which she would deliver

6:27

herself in person. Findings

6:30

from a psychologist who specialized

6:32

in studying and identifying contributing

6:34

factors of false confessions. And

6:36

4. New analysis of the

6:38

shoe prints found on the hood of Mr.

6:40

Jones's Lincoln. The defendants

6:43

themselves were also scheduled to testify.

6:45

They'd agreed to answer any and all

6:47

questions commissioners had for them. No holds

6:49

barred. The men considered this

6:52

their first real chance to speak freely about

6:54

their side of things. I

6:56

was so happy. I was like, hey, this is it. I

6:58

was happy. We were shut

7:00

down so many times. So for us to

7:03

be able to really speak our truth, that

7:05

was a good thing for us. Nathaniel

7:07

Cawthon, who's still in prison, was particularly

7:10

glad for the chance to speak his

7:12

mind. I'm very

7:14

unapologetic about anything. I

7:16

don't trust nobody when

7:18

it comes to this. I literally

7:20

stopped talking to the press, period.

7:23

Like, because of the things that they were

7:26

saying about me and my little brother.

7:28

I couldn't get my point across. Y'all talking

7:30

all this stuff about me, but I can't

7:32

say nothing to the point where my words

7:34

are felt or how I'm felt. So

7:37

it's like, yo, whatever. When I get my

7:39

chance, I'm going to get my chance. And

7:41

that was my chance. When

7:45

things got going, the commission's lead

7:47

investigator, Julie Bridenstine, began by explaining

7:49

how time consuming and challenging it

7:51

had been to get the Winston-Salem

7:54

Police Department and for Sythe County

7:56

District Attorney's Office to cough up

7:58

all the paperwork really to the

8:00

case. We made our

8:02

first verbal requests for these files on August

8:04

18th, 2015. The records file

8:08

provided included references to recorded interviews

8:11

in this case. Only

8:13

later did we learn that the Winston-Salem

8:15

Police Department kept a case file and

8:17

evidence that was much larger than the

8:20

file held in records that had previously

8:22

been provided. And was

8:24

there a difference between the records file and the

8:26

full evidence file? Yes, the full

8:28

file contained over 1,000 additional pages, including

8:32

handwritten notes, transcribed statements

8:34

of the claimants and others, brute

8:37

statements of the claimants, some

8:40

additional reports, and copious

8:42

other documents that were not in the

8:44

records file. Even when

8:46

commissioned staff thought they'd gotten everything, they

8:49

discovered more. We also

8:51

obtained and reviewed a copy of the district

8:53

attorney's file in this case, which was almost

8:55

11,000 pages. The

8:58

commission's investigators had also taken possession of

9:00

the physical evidence in the case. However,

9:02

by the time they got into the

9:04

boxes to inventory the stuff, it was

9:06

quite a mess. The

9:09

evidence was primarily stored in

9:11

six brown cardboard boxes. When

9:14

opening one of those boxes, we noted that

9:16

our item number 77, which

9:19

were the shoes that were collected from Raysean

9:21

Banner and Nathaniel Cawthon's house

9:23

that could not be excluded

9:26

from the footprints at

9:28

the crime scene, that those

9:30

items were stored in an

9:32

unsealed ripped brown bag. With

9:35

the victims closet? Yes, it was all in

9:37

the same box. Many of the

9:39

items had not been resealed and the bags were

9:41

ripped and the trial transcript also seems to indicate

9:43

that this was all pulled out at the trial

9:45

and shown to

9:48

the jury. Not sure if you caught

9:50

that, but what Julie just said

9:52

is that when the commission staff viewed

9:54

the physical evidence in Mr. Jones's case

9:56

after nearly two decades in storage, some

9:58

of his bloody clothes had

10:00

been stored in ripped, unsealed bags

10:02

alongside the shoes taken from Rachon

10:04

and Nathaniel's home in 2002. And

10:08

not just any shoes. The Nike

10:10

Air Force Ones that prosecutors had told

10:12

jurors at trial matched the shoe prints

10:14

found on Mr. Jones' hood. This

10:17

was a big cross-contamination issue, and it

10:19

opened up a whole new set of

10:21

problems for commission staff when it came

10:23

time to decide what evidence they could

10:25

test for DNA and what items they

10:28

couldn't. In the end,

10:30

they settled on a few key things and

10:32

sent them to Bodhi Technology, a private forensics

10:34

lab out of state. Mr.

10:37

Jones' broken watch. We collected

10:39

tape collected from his body.

10:42

Pieces of tape from the crime scene. Chapstick

10:45

from the crime scene. Three

10:47

pieces of mail that were found underneath the Lincoln.

10:51

Two floodlights from the carport. A

10:54

piece of a storm door handle from

10:56

the carport. And a black hair

10:58

substance found near the crime scene as well. In

11:02

preparation for the testing, the commission

11:04

had made sure to get DNA

11:06

swabs from all the surviving defendants.

11:08

Jessica Black, a previous defense attorney

11:10

who'd represented Nathaniel Cawthon, and the

11:12

people who'd initially found Mr. Jones

11:14

in his carport. They'd also

11:17

retrieved standards of Mr. Jones'

11:19

Andorrell Brayboy's DNA. The

11:21

goal was to test as much of the

11:23

evidence that was presented at trial as they

11:26

could, as well as some items that weren't

11:28

but had been brought up a lot during

11:30

police's original investigation. One of

11:32

those items that was of great interest was

11:34

the metal baseball bat police had taken from

11:37

Jamal Tolliver's house. But after

11:39

Bodhi did their thing, the lab

11:41

determined no detectable DNA was on

11:43

it, like whatsoever. That

11:46

didn't surprise Chris Mooma. There's

11:48

no injury that fits with the bat

11:50

being used. It's true.

11:53

The pathologist who did Mr. Jones'

11:55

autopsy didn't make any notes that

11:57

he had injuries consistent with being

11:59

repeatedly beaten. beaten with a baseball bat.

12:02

Bodie also tested two pairs of jeans that

12:04

had been taken from Rachon and Nathaniel to

12:06

see if Mr. Jones' DNA showed up on

12:08

them, but it didn't. The

12:11

reason the commission had only sent the

12:13

brothers' pants to be tested was because

12:16

in Jessica Black's initial confession in 2002,

12:19

she told police she'd seen the outline of

12:21

a wallet in the back pocket of a

12:23

pair of pants Nathaniel had been wearing on

12:25

the evening of November 15th after the murder.

12:28

So the commission wanted to know once

12:30

and for all if Mr. Jones' wallet,

12:32

which most likely would have had his

12:34

DNA on it, had been in Nathaniel's

12:36

pants and transferred any genetic material. But

12:39

the results ruled that scenario out. The

12:43

lab also ran tests to determine if any

12:45

of the boys' DNA had transferred onto the

12:47

evidence found at the crime scene, which would

12:49

have proved that they'd at least been there

12:52

or at a minimum, touched something. However,

12:54

none of the teen's DNA was

12:57

found on anything. There's

12:59

no forensic evidence linking

13:01

any of the five

13:03

co-defendants in this case

13:05

or Ms. Black to

13:08

this crime scene. That's

13:10

correct. This conclusion stuck

13:12

out big time to the defense

13:14

attorneys. Here's Brad Bannon,

13:16

who represents Christopher Bryant, and Chris

13:19

Mooma, who represents Nathaniel and Rachon.

13:22

That is very powerful evidence of

13:24

innocence, particularly when you line it

13:26

up with the narrative that has endured

13:28

from the prosecution side about how

13:30

this crime was committed from the

13:32

beginning. The narrative that has

13:34

been pursued about who did that robbery

13:37

and how that robbery unfolded and has

13:40

been the basis for the conviction of

13:42

five kids and the continued incarceration of

13:44

two of them is just

13:47

foreclosed, really, by the

13:49

physical evidence as

13:52

it exists and the lack of physical evidence.

13:55

A teenage boy cannot make a peanut

13:57

butter sandwich without leading a trail across

13:59

the of peanut butter and

14:01

jelly, and it's a mess, right? I

14:04

don't think these boys would have been able to do anything

14:07

without leaving some evidence behind.

14:10

In addition to excluding all the defendants

14:13

and Jessica, another interesting finding

14:15

from the DNA results was that

14:17

Bodie had isolated an unknown DNA

14:19

profile on a piece of black

14:22

string intertwined with the black tape

14:24

wrapped around Mr. Jones' left hand.

14:27

There was DNA evidence, and

14:30

that DNA evidence was identifiable.

14:33

Its source surprised everyone.

14:37

There was a partial DNA profile

14:39

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14:41

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14:43

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20:00

as well as anything intertwined with it. But

20:03

it was that dominant female DNA

20:05

profile that confounded everyone, to this

20:08

day, actually. The identity of

20:10

its owner remains a mystery. Brad

20:13

Bannon's big takeaway from all the DNA

20:15

findings was that nothing had come back

20:17

to his client or the other men

20:19

convicted of the crime. That,

20:21

in and of itself, was a big deal

20:23

to him. Not only

20:25

is that possible evidence

20:29

of a true perpetrator, but I

20:31

think even more importantly, it

20:34

proves that the crime the state

20:36

has always alleged to have happened

20:39

could not have happened. Because if

20:42

that's what had occurred, the

20:45

sensitivity of today's DNA testing would

20:47

have absolutely revealed at least

20:49

one of the six teenagers' DNA

20:52

profiles on that evidence.

20:55

And it hasn't. The

20:58

one moment during the hearing that really

21:00

made everyone pause, though... Can you state

21:02

your name for the record? Jessica Black.

21:05

She was emotional and not in good

21:08

health, but she answered all of the

21:10

panel members' questions without holding anything back.

21:13

As I got older and was able to process

21:16

stuff as it happened and

21:19

was able to look at it from an adult point of

21:22

view, that's when it feels again.

21:26

And what were those feelings? Horrible,

21:30

horrible. My

21:32

conscience has aided me so

21:34

bad, so bad. And

21:37

now I have a son who's 14, and

21:41

I can only imagine if my son was

21:44

in that predicament and how I

21:46

would feel. The more I

21:48

have sat and finally talked about it

21:51

and thought and talked and thought, I've

21:53

always thought about it. But

21:56

the more I've sat here and verbally come

21:58

out about it and I can hear myself...

22:00

talk about it. And

22:02

being the age I am now that I can

22:05

see here and I can look back and rationalize

22:07

every single thing that was

22:09

going on right then. It's

22:11

stuff that needs to be set right. When

22:16

commissioners asked her why she'd lied

22:18

in the first place, she detailed

22:20

a familiar story. Because

22:22

I was 16 and

22:24

I did what I thought I was supposed to do

22:28

based on the law of the police, rather,

22:31

based on who I thought I was able,

22:33

I was supposed to trust, who I thought

22:35

I was supposed to listen to. I had

22:37

no reason not to believe nothing that they

22:39

said because it's the police. You

22:41

should be able to realize you should be

22:43

able to trust them if you can't trust

22:45

nobody. What were you

22:48

expecting to happen by coming forward

22:50

and changing your story? That

22:53

everything be set right the

22:55

way it should be and what

22:58

happened in those rooms and

23:00

stuff be known. Why

23:03

do you think they didn't show up? Because

23:05

I feel like they got what they wanted. I

23:08

just feel like with the aggression and stuff that

23:10

came out and the way that they

23:12

did, I feel like they

23:14

finally got what they wanted. What do you think

23:16

they wanted? I

23:19

believe that they already

23:21

had a scenario in their mind as to what had

23:23

happened. And then you got these

23:25

five young men that constantly that roam the

23:28

neighborhood and just hang out and do their

23:30

thing. I feel like they went ahead and

23:32

came up with their own scenario, their own

23:34

story, and that they wanted something to fit

23:36

that. And that anything that I

23:39

said or the boys said didn't fit

23:41

it. So they just kept on

23:43

until they got what they felt fit. She

23:46

knew without a doubt her friends had fallen

23:48

victim to the same thing. It

23:50

seemed like the more, the more

23:52

I don't know, aggravated or made them

23:55

mad that the more they swapped off.

23:57

And that's my finally ended up with

23:59

that one. to holler and scream and spit and all that.

24:02

If they went through anything, what I went through

24:04

over there, then I

24:06

can see why they come to that. Because

24:09

they were probably tired and

24:11

scared. I know they're scared. Local

24:14

journalist Michael Hewlett watched and listened

24:17

closely to Jessica's testimony. Is

24:19

she telling the truth now or was

24:22

she telling the truth then? Then the

24:25

question becomes, okay, what benefit

24:28

does she get from

24:31

recanting?

24:33

And it doesn't appear that there's a

24:35

lot. Part of any

24:38

trial, part of any hearing

24:40

is evaluating the body

24:43

language of someone. And

24:45

that's how you evaluate their credibility. And

24:47

so I remember watching her testify and

24:50

she seemed genuinely

24:53

anguished. When Jamal

24:55

heard Jessica's words during the hearing, he

24:57

was relieved. I wish

24:59

she would have did it a lot sooner. I mean, but I

25:01

was, I, it was crazy.

25:04

My anger was

25:06

never really with her. They did her the

25:09

same way they did us. So

25:11

it was understandable. Do you sense

25:13

that she's genuinely remorseful? I do.

25:17

I do. Christopher feels the

25:19

same way, but still he

25:21

has one question for Jessica. Why

25:24

did she let it simmer so long?

25:26

Why did you let it simmer so long?

25:30

In the end, he's found it better

25:32

to forgive than hold a grudge. Same

25:35

goes for Nathaniel and Ray Sean. At

25:38

first, it was kind of like, why

25:41

would you do that? That's not right. But

25:44

then as I got older and I started to

25:46

think about the situation, yeah,

25:48

she was done just like we were done. She

25:51

was put in the same predicament as

25:53

me. I felt sorry

25:55

for her. Like when she came forward,

25:58

it was like, yo, I was... I

26:00

was wrong. I knew I was

26:02

wrong. I knew what I was doing was wrong.

26:04

That made me see her in a better light

26:06

than what I used to see her in. Teresa

26:09

Banner, Rashawna Nathaniel's mother, goes back

26:12

and forth with how she feels

26:14

about Jessica. I did

26:16

speak with her, you know, and I

26:18

hugged her. But it still didn't take

26:21

away what I initially felt. You

26:25

know, you are the reason why my son

26:27

is here. I have forgiven her

26:29

in my heart. I don't want to

26:31

see anything bad happen to her, because

26:33

now I realize what they

26:35

did to her, so that makes me feel bad for her

26:37

too. But still, that's not

26:39

going to help you in the

26:42

long run. Your conscience is just

26:44

tore up, and it's going to be tore up until the

26:46

day you die, probably. You know? I

26:48

call it a cancer. This is something

26:50

that has been eating at me for so,

26:52

so long. You know, and I

26:55

can't get out there and express

26:59

what I really feel. Towards Jessica

27:01

Black, you know,

27:03

you done wrong. You

27:06

should not have done that. But

27:09

you did, because you were under a lot of pressure.

27:11

I understand that. I appreciate you trying

27:13

to make it right. But could you

27:16

help came forward maybe two years later? You

27:19

know, this has been 20-some years now. When

27:21

you watched her, did you

27:24

see a genuine woman who was remorseful

27:26

and wish she had not done what

27:28

had happened? I did. I

27:30

did. The

27:33

defense attorneys, who were really just

27:35

observers in the eight-member panel proceeding,

27:37

felt empathy towards Jessica. They'd

27:40

read her body language just like Michael

27:42

Hewlett had. It's incredibly

27:44

compelling. And saw a

27:46

woman who appeared to them to be broken

27:48

and filled with regret. Jessica

27:50

was a victim in all of

27:53

this. She was a manipulated victim.

27:56

She lived with the fact that she

27:58

knew what she'd tell her. was

28:00

false. Once she found

28:02

out that they were innocent, it

28:06

has turned her world upside down. Jessica

28:09

Black did the wrong

28:11

thing when she was a teenager. She

28:14

was scared. When

28:17

they came back to her and she was in her

28:19

30s and she had had some life experience between that

28:21

time and she had her own child and

28:23

she realized what these officers told me

28:25

about the evidence they had against these

28:29

kids did not exist. Then

28:33

it's just very clear that

28:36

that moment was a moment of truth

28:39

for her and that

28:41

she had to do what she knew was

28:43

the only right thing to do, which

28:45

was be truthful about that. That's

28:47

just not something that people do

28:51

for no reason. That's

28:53

something that people do out

28:55

of principle. That's something that people do because

28:58

their conscience, which is what she said,

29:01

it was eating her alive and she

29:04

could not live with it anymore. And

29:06

it has torn her up. And

29:09

I think that once she told the truth,

29:12

she committed herself from

29:14

that point forward. Something

29:17

super interesting though is that just two

29:19

weeks before the eight member panel even

29:21

kicked off, something significant

29:23

happened that could have derailed

29:25

everything with respect to Jessica.

29:28

The cops were once again wanting to speak

29:30

with her. Our

29:32

badge says Mr. Salem. We're a long way from

29:34

Mr. Salem. So we didn't hear the rescue. We

29:36

can't arrest you. We just want the truth. Tell

29:39

us what happened. As

29:47

a parent, you want what's best for your teen. You

29:50

want them to grow and thrive in this world. But

29:53

you also want to make sure they're staying safe. That's

29:56

why Instagram is introducing teen accounts.

30:00

for who can contact teens and the content

30:02

they can see. Instagram Teen

30:05

Accounts, built-in limits for teens and

30:07

peace of mind for parents. Learn

30:10

more at instagram.com/teenaccounts. To

30:30

get you taken care of. On

30:36

February 26th, 2020, 13 days before Jessica testified in

30:41

front of the Innocence Inquiry Commission, two

30:44

Winston-Salem police detectives showed up at her

30:46

job. Here's Brad Bannon. A

30:50

couple weeks before the

30:52

IIC hearing, as

30:54

is required by statute, staff

30:57

members convened the defense lawyers

31:01

and the prosecutors in the case to

31:04

forecast what the evidence they had

31:06

developed was and what the evidence

31:08

they would be presenting to the commission was,

31:11

which of course included centrally

31:15

and as a key part, Jessica's

31:17

recantation. I believe that

31:19

was in the early afternoon that we had that

31:21

meeting. Within

31:23

hours, literally within

31:25

hours, the Winston-Salem

31:27

Police Department was

31:29

at Jessica's job to

31:31

talk to her about this, and

31:33

when she said, I can't talk now, I'm working,

31:36

they said, well, can we come to your home tonight?

31:39

And she said, sure. And she

31:41

met them at her home, not

31:44

with a lawyer, by

31:46

herself. Jessica told

31:48

her story to the officers and

31:51

explained in detail how she'd lied back

31:53

in 2002 and been coerced into falsely

31:55

confessing. And it's very

31:57

clear that in that moment, Even

58:00

though he was also clad in his

58:03

prison jumpsuit, it was his passionate personality

58:05

that commissioners saw on full display. Mr.

58:08

Cawthon, if you didn't commit these

58:10

crimes, why did you

58:12

tell police on November 19, 2002

58:15

that you had committed them? Because

58:17

I was scared for my life. Why

58:20

were you scared? Because I thought the police were going

58:22

to do something to me. I

58:24

was a child. I was 15 years old. I

58:26

was forced to say something that I didn't want to say. And

58:29

the only way I knew to get out of

58:31

the situation that I was in was to comply

58:33

with what they were asking me for. And

58:36

I'm like, what else could I tell

58:38

these people to get me out of this room? What

58:41

you want me to do? I'm 15 years old. I

58:44

can't read or write. I know no better. The

58:47

only thing I know is my mom is at

58:49

home. I don't know where I'm at. What

58:52

you want me to say? Any kid would do that.

58:55

Any kid would actually sit right here and

58:57

lie to make the situation better so they

58:59

can go home. But see,

59:01

now I'm a little older. My

59:04

mind has developed. I have knowledge of

59:06

the situation. I know who I am.

59:08

I understand the situation. So if you

59:10

ask me again, did I harm Mr.

59:12

Jones? No, ma'am, I didn't. Did

59:14

I have any implications of knowing what happened to Mr.

59:16

Jones? No, ma'am, I didn't. Have

59:19

I had any intentions of harming Mr. Jones? No,

59:21

ma'am, I didn't because I wasn't there. Why

59:24

did you tell the police that

59:29

Ray Sean was the first person to hit Mr.

59:31

Jones? It was just a lie.

59:34

So you told a lie to get

59:36

your little brother and your best friend

59:38

in the world implicated in this? Not

59:42

necessarily, but it was the first thing that came

59:44

to my mind and the first

59:46

thing that it

59:48

was just a lie. That's all it was. Do

59:51

you understand how difficult

59:54

that is to understand? At

59:58

this point, Being 33? Yes,

1:00:01

sir. When panel

1:00:04

members asked him what he wanted most

1:00:06

out of the Innocence Inquiry Commission process,

1:00:08

he, of course, said he'd like to

1:00:10

be exonerated. But he took it

1:00:12

one step further. I

1:00:14

would actually like for somebody to actually come forward

1:00:16

and tell the truth. I

1:00:18

would actually like for somebody to

1:00:20

please, because I don't like being in

1:00:23

chains. I don't like being in chapel. And

1:00:25

I don't like my name being put in something that

1:00:28

I did not do. Yeah,

1:00:30

I was wrong for saying I did a crime, but

1:00:34

I had no other choice. In my mind, at the age of

1:00:36

15 years old, now

1:00:38

that I'm 33 years old, yeah, I would like

1:00:40

for somebody to

1:00:43

please come forward. I would like for

1:00:45

somebody to please actually take their guilt.

1:00:49

When Christopher Bryant testified after Nathaniel, he

1:00:52

said the same thing. Exoneration would be great, but

1:00:55

there was something else that

1:00:57

needed to happen. I didn't

1:00:59

have nothing to do with Mr. Jones-Murler. I

1:01:02

never was involved. I never participated in

1:01:05

it. I would never do

1:01:07

nothing like that to nobody. And

1:01:09

I wouldn't hang around nobody that would do that. I

1:01:12

want justice for not just us, but for him

1:01:14

as well, though. Like, he didn't deserve that. And

1:01:16

I would go to my grave until the day

1:01:18

I'm dead knowing that I didn't do this. I

1:01:20

didn't have no part in it. The ones that

1:01:22

locked up for this, like, they in prison for

1:01:24

something they didn't do. And

1:01:28

with that, the hearing came to a close. The

1:01:31

eight members retired to deliberate, but

1:01:34

right before they did, Charles Paul,

1:01:36

Mr. Jones's son-in-law, read the following

1:01:38

statement. On

1:01:41

behalf of my family, I just want to

1:01:43

let y'all know we appreciate it and thank

1:01:45

everybody for being here. But

1:01:47

a lot of times during this process, it's

1:01:49

been tough, mostly on my wife and her

1:01:51

sister, to relive this all over again. We're

1:01:54

standing strong, but we just wanted to let

1:01:56

you all know that it always gets lost

1:01:58

as Chris Paul's grave. But

1:02:01

this was my wife, this was my wife's

1:02:03

dad and her sisters, somebody that

1:02:05

they loved very much. And

1:02:07

I just want y'all to know that we appreciate it and

1:02:10

that on behalf of my wife and her sister,

1:02:12

this is a man we loved and miss every

1:02:14

day and there's nothing we can do to bring

1:02:16

him back. We just want

1:02:19

to let y'all know that. It

1:02:23

didn't take very long for the panel to return

1:02:25

with their decision. The

1:02:27

final vote was 5-3 in favor

1:02:29

of sending the case in front

1:02:31

of a three-judge panel. The

1:02:35

defendants had won the battle, but not

1:02:37

the war. It ain't

1:02:39

never over. It's never over.

1:02:43

Four men, part of the group

1:02:45

known as the Winston-Salem Five, are

1:02:47

seeking exoneration. It was

1:02:49

officially time for the defense attorneys to go

1:02:51

from sitting on the sidelines to jumping into

1:02:53

the arena. We don't

1:02:55

ever know what the judge is going to be like.

1:02:58

And the stakes could not have been higher. That's

1:03:02

a huge, high legal standard. Rhonda

1:03:05

Hairston and Robin Jones Paul, Chris

1:03:07

Paul's mother, both women saying they

1:03:09

believe the killers are in the

1:03:11

courtroom, right in front of them.

1:03:15

We're going back to court again

1:03:17

in episode seven, Judgment.

1:03:23

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