0:29

Welcome to Crawl Space. I'm Tim

0:31

here today with Lance. Lance, how are

0:33

you today? I'm doing fantastic today. Tim,

0:36

I hope all the listeners out there

0:38

are doing fantastic as well. The guest that

0:40

we have on, he's been here a

0:42

few times already and we always have

0:45

a good time with him. He's always

0:47

such a wealth of information, but he

0:49

delivers it in such a way that

0:51

I think anybody can understand it and

0:53

damn handsome. But Tim, before we get

0:55

to our guest, how are you today. I

0:57

am doing great over here. Thanks a

1:00

lot for asking. And yeah, I

1:02

am excited to once again announce

1:04

our guest Matt Murphy of Matt

1:06

Murphy law.com and he's a new

1:08

author. He wrote a great book

1:11

called The Book of Murder. It's

1:13

out now. You can check it

1:15

out in this episode with him.

1:17

This is now the third time

1:19

we've spoken with Mr. Matt Murphy

1:21

Lance. And we spoke more about

1:23

his book in the first two

1:26

conversations, the book of murder. conversation.

1:28

We speak a little bit about

1:30

his next book and in this

1:32

conversation we speak mostly about serial

1:34

killers and from his perspective what

1:36

it was like to try them

1:38

as a former homicide prosecutor from

1:40

Orange County. He tried Rodney Alkala,

1:42

the serial killer. And so we

1:45

spend a good maybe 20 minutes

1:47

or so speaking about Rodney Alkala

1:49

and really the second half of

1:51

the conversation is about the... Long

1:53

Island serial killer, or I should

1:55

say the alleged Long Island serial

1:57

killer Rex Huerman. And Matt is

1:59

such a great person to sit

2:01

down with and speak about these

2:04

crimes and the people who perpetrate

2:06

them because like you said he

2:08

was a prosecutor and he has

2:10

been involved in these situations where

2:12

he has to sort of think

2:14

like them manipulate alongside them with

2:16

their minds and his own mind

2:18

in order to get the information

2:20

that they need. And all of

2:22

that goes into these insights when

2:25

he writes his books, and I'm

2:27

so excited that he's got this

2:29

new book that is just specifically

2:31

focused on serial killers because not

2:33

only does he talk about them

2:35

and their crimes and how to

2:37

make yourself aware of their presence,

2:39

but I'm sure there's pieces in

2:41

there that will set you up

2:44

to protect yourself in some way.

2:46

And Matt definitely has a genuine

2:48

curiosity about the minds of serial

2:50

killers. You can tell because the

2:52

way he speaks about them, he

2:54

almost gets excited speaking about their

2:56

psychology and you know how they

2:58

hold trophies and and how they

3:00

there are patterns with serial killers

3:02

that repeat in different serial killers.

3:05

And I think that's one part

3:07

that Matt really likes about it

3:09

because I mean after all he

3:11

was a... prosecutor. So that's like

3:13

evidence, right? Right. And he loves

3:15

catching them. I think that's the

3:17

ultimate icing on the cake, which

3:19

is I'm going to learn about

3:21

you, I'm going to learn about

3:24

your patterns, I'm going to figure

3:26

out how to use all of

3:28

that against you. And that's why

3:30

he's a prosecutor. And he catches

3:32

them. And I think that's a

3:34

lot of where that excitement that

3:36

you spoke about comes from is

3:38

watching them be a victim of

3:40

their own MO. Right. Okay, so

3:43

we hope you enjoy this conversation

3:45

with Matt Murphy. Definitely check out

3:47

his book, The Book of Murder,

3:49

you can get that online, and

3:51

check out his website, Matt murphylaw.com.

3:53

Make sure to follow us on

3:55

social media at Missing CSM. And

3:57

be sure to state. At the

3:59

end of the episode, Tim and

4:01

I will be coming back in

4:04

with our final thoughts on this

4:06

conversation. We're going to break quick

4:08

for commercial here, and we'll be

4:10

right back. Give your kids a

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kid ages 7 to 17 at

4:34

ID Tech. Sign up at ID

4:36

tech.com and use code ID Tech

4:38

to save $150 on a week

4:40

of a lifetime. Welcome

4:52

back to the podcast. Matt Murphy,

4:54

how are you today? Good, good.

4:56

Say a sunny but cold day

4:58

here in New York City. Yeah,

5:00

same, same. We got sunny and

5:02

cold, had a few flurries of

5:04

snow, you guys got kind of

5:06

dumped on though, didn't you? Yeah,

5:08

pretty crazy. But today is actually

5:10

a beautiful day. It's just very

5:12

cold. My California blood, it's kind

5:14

of at its limit. Got to

5:16

be 19 last night and I

5:19

went outside and turned right back

5:21

around and came back inside. Yeah,

5:23

so. Gotta get that blood thickened

5:25

up again, I guess. Yeah, or

5:27

something. I have a neighbor and

5:29

I ran into on the elevator

5:31

that. I'm like, I cannot believe

5:33

how cold it is. And she's

5:35

like, I'm from the Midwest. I'm

5:37

like, oh, I almost died. She's

5:39

like laughing at it because it

5:41

wasn't, there's nothing for her. Well,

5:43

having you on the show is

5:45

not nothing for us. This was

5:47

actually the only thing on my

5:49

New Year's resolution list was to

5:51

have you back on crawl space

5:53

so I can check that off

5:55

my New Year's goals. millions, but

5:57

there's like two or three people

5:59

who don't know you. So can

6:01

we do the whole who you

6:03

are and where you're from? Sir,

6:05

I'm famous with my sister. That's

6:07

about the only person that thinks

6:09

I'm really famous. So yeah, my

6:11

name is Matt Murphy. I was

6:13

a deputy DA in Orange County,

6:15

California for 26 years. I spent

6:17

21 years in the sexual assault

6:19

and homicide units. I just wrote

6:21

a book called The Book of

6:23

Murder, where I go through the

6:25

taxonomy of different murder cases that

6:27

I encounter from child abuse cases

6:29

to serial killers. conspiracies to kill

6:32

for money and sort of everything

6:34

in between. And I also work

6:36

as a legal analyst for ABC

6:39

News here in New York, which

6:41

is mostly doing breakdown of the

6:44

cases of the day, which is

6:46

a lot of fun. And I'm

6:48

in private practice mostly defending police

6:51

officers in Los Angeles and Orange

6:53

counties in Southern California. So that's

6:56

me. I want to ask about the book

6:58

of murder. It's one of the

7:00

best true crime books I've read

7:02

in years and you mentioned that

7:04

you were considering a second book.

7:07

Any news on that yet? Yeah,

7:09

so thank you for asking. Yeah,

7:11

I just submitted a proposal to

7:13

my agent yesterday, as a matter

7:16

of fact. And the working title,

7:18

it's specifically about serial killers. So

7:20

among the serial killers, I prosecuted.

7:23

I prosecuted 13 different people that

7:25

would qualify under the FBI definition,

7:27

I think. But some of the

7:30

more notable ones were the Golden

7:32

State killer. I was the Orange

7:35

County prosecutor on that case. I

7:37

had Rodney Ocala, the dating game

7:39

killer. Of course, I had Skylar Daily

7:41

Own, although technically he's a serial killer.

7:43

I think he's actually a different kind,

7:46

but he was the Tom and Jackie

7:48

Hocks yacht murder. I had a bunch

7:50

of like notable sort of high

7:52

profile. you know, serial killer

7:55

guys that I prosecuted

7:57

and one woman during

7:59

my tenure and learned a

8:01

bunch so the next book is right

8:03

now the working title it's this is

8:06

just a working title but it's serial

8:08

killers are assholes is the working title

8:10

and keep it kind of my my

8:12

own personal journey learning about them what

8:15

they're like And it's actually very interesting.

8:17

So going from sexual assault into the

8:19

homicide unit, when I showed up in

8:22

homicide, I thought serial killers were all

8:24

going to be like Buffalo Bill from

8:26

Silence of the Lambs, like some tortured

8:28

abused outcasts living in a creepy house

8:31

on the hill driving around a creepy

8:33

van. And what I discovered when I

8:35

actually started dealing with these guys is

8:38

they were just like the serial rapists

8:40

that I'd just been prosecuting in sexual

8:42

assault. They were... They were incredibly arrogant,

8:45

they were sadistic, they were cruel, and

8:47

what was really interesting to me is

8:49

that they were vastly socially successful. They

8:51

were graduates, they had college degrees, a

8:54

lot of them, they were successful in

8:56

business, they were successful in marriage, they

8:58

were successful in... You know, in school

9:01

they had friends, you know, right now

9:03

a call for example, had a, he

9:05

was handsome, he had a genius level,

9:07

documented, mensa level, IQ. He grew up

9:10

in a house with loving, a loving

9:12

mom and a loving aunt. His brother

9:14

went to West Point and was a

9:17

war hero. Like he had incredibly successful

9:19

siblings. I prosecuted another guy named Andrew

9:21

Erdi Alice, who was the same thing.

9:23

One of his sisters became a police

9:26

officer, no abuse. at all for either

9:28

one of those guys which really that

9:30

is actually in my experience and it's

9:33

counterintuitive because we all it's almost comforting

9:35

to think that serial killers are victims

9:37

of abuse and they are largely not

9:39

and even the ones that were abused

9:42

when you dig into it a little

9:44

bit I've got a chapter on this

9:46

in the new book I'm working on

9:49

like Eileen Warnos from Florida you know

9:51

she was a female serial killer killed

9:53

seven men probably more, but I have

9:55

no doubt that she was abused as

9:58

a child. She had a horrific childhood

10:00

upbringing, but she just wasn't abused by

10:02

any of the men she killed. You

10:05

know, and there's another one, Edmund Kemper,

10:07

in, he's very famous. He actually formed

10:09

the basis of some of the characters

10:11

in Son of the Lamps. He was

10:14

in Santa Cruz, killed six women and

10:16

one girl in the early 70s, and

10:18

same sort of thing. He had a

10:21

horrifically alcoholic abusive mother and that's well

10:23

documented. However, they didn't get divorced until

10:25

he was in his early, like early

10:27

teens, I think, and he had a

10:30

father who loved him dearly. And long

10:32

before the parents got divorced, he was

10:34

killing neighborhood cats and family cats. So

10:37

it's, I figured I did one chapter

10:39

on alcala in the last books. I

10:41

figured it's worth a. worth a deeper

10:43

dive and they have patterns and one

10:46

of the things these guys love to

10:48

do is they love to represent themselves.

10:50

So you deal with them in what's

10:53

known as pro per status where you

10:55

really have to get to know these

10:57

guys because you'll be in trial with

10:59

them for six months at a time

11:02

like Rodney O'Connell's case went on forever,

11:04

but Rod D. O'Carla, the dating game

11:06

killer who Anna Kendrick just famously, she

11:09

made a movie out of one of

11:11

the chapters in the book murder. Well.

11:13

based on that case. I had to

11:15

deal with him in trial as he

11:18

represented himself. So every day for about

11:20

a year and a half, you know,

11:22

I would have a conversation with rock

11:25

and rod and al-kala. And it was

11:27

a fascinating, you know, sort of dissent

11:29

into the mind of the modern American

11:32

serial killer. So I figure I have

11:34

enough stories to share for another book

11:36

and I hope people, I hope people

11:38

will like it. had to be in

11:41

court with a serial killer who was

11:43

defending themselves. Is there any part of

11:45

you that finds that like so absurdly

11:48

comical? I know it's such a serious

11:50

thing to do to be in court

11:52

and having to like be a part

11:54

of this trial, but is there so

11:57

deep inside of you where you're like

11:59

this is just absurd like who am

12:01

I talking to? Subjectly absurd I'll throw

12:04

another layer on it in order to

12:06

you know we've got in that case

12:08

we had the the families of five

12:10

different victims that were in court so

12:13

you've got you know on any given

12:15

day you've got over a dozen people

12:17

that are depending on you to bring

12:20

justice as corns that sounds it's really

12:22

true and we got there's a bunch

12:24

of them from the mid 70s women

12:26

they killed in Los Angeles County and

12:29

we were prosecuting a 12-year-old girl named

12:31

Robin Samso. And so the goal is

12:33

to move the trial along. And somebody

12:36

who's representing themselves can really gum up

12:38

the gears, as I'm sure you can

12:40

imagine. So I co-counsel Gina Satriano from

12:42

Los Angeles County, who is one of

12:45

my best friends and wonderful. And my

12:47

job was basically to be the get

12:49

along guy with Alcala, and then we

12:52

would just blame her and try to

12:54

take advantage of some of his misogyny.

12:56

you know like hey I don't I

12:58

I know you want this ridiculous thing

13:01

rod I would too if I were

13:03

you but she said nobody I don't

13:05

know what else to tell you so

13:08

we had to sort of do that

13:10

constructively as a prosecutor you have an

13:12

ethical obligation to treat them fairly even

13:14

though they aren't your own lawyer and

13:17

that's that's a sacrosanct obligation of any

13:19

prosecutor like you have to above all

13:21

you have to be fair but we're

13:24

doing that with the idea that we

13:26

want him to be executed. Now California

13:28

with Gavin Newsom and all the rest

13:30

there, we've had a moratorium. It's not

13:33

like they're ever going to actually execute

13:35

the guy, but we, that's the process

13:37

that we were in. We're trying to

13:40

put him back on death row where

13:42

he'd been sent twice before. And so

13:44

we're getting along and it's like I'm

13:46

trying to get him to cooperate in

13:49

his own death, basically. And it is...

13:51

It is absurd. But what's even more

13:53

absurd is when you, he has a

13:56

right to discovery. So one of the

13:58

things that he did was he was

14:00

taking photos of his victims in death.

14:03

So he was a professional photographer and

14:05

you'd go pose their bodies. And that

14:07

was when they were discovered, they were

14:09

discovered in these post-rate positions. And he

14:12

was, because he was so high profile,

14:14

he had his own cell in the

14:16

jail. And as his own lawyer, he

14:19

had to have access to those images.

14:21

So you can just picture what that

14:23

guy's doing in that cell at night

14:25

with those images. Like we basically gave

14:28

him his own porn supply, his own

14:30

created porn supply. And you know, and

14:32

it's, you know, it's the, again, fairness

14:35

to a criminal defendant is sacrosanct, but

14:37

it is, it does reach levels of

14:39

absurdity when you're dealing with serial killers.

14:41

That is wild. And the serial killers

14:44

that you've come in contact with through

14:46

your work, it's all a sexual thing

14:48

for them? That is actually a great

14:51

question. And thank you for asking that.

14:53

Okay. So the FBI definition of what

14:55

a serial killer is, is... two or

14:57

more victims killed by the same perpetrator

15:00

unlawfully in different events. Okay, so the

15:02

definition of serial killer, serial killer is

15:04

a term, is not a legal term.

15:07

It's an academic law enforcement sort of

15:09

pop culture term. So that definition is

15:11

anodyne from my perspective. It is so

15:13

broad that includes medical professionals that are

15:16

doing mercy killings. Like we've heard of

15:18

those every once in a while or

15:20

a gang member that is stays out

15:23

of prison long enough, but is actively

15:25

quote unquote putting in work for his

15:27

hood like and can shoot straight or

15:29

a drug dealer that does it long

15:32

enough or a cartel guy that is

15:34

one of their enforcers so that it's

15:36

such a broad definition the real true

15:39

blue spirit killers in my view are

15:41

the sexual predators. There's a the first

15:43

academic attempt to really get a handle

15:45

on these guys was a book written

15:48

by Dr. von Kraft Ebbing. He was

15:50

a German psychiatrist who's a contemporary of

15:52

Sigmund Freud. back in the 1800s, in

15:55

the 1880s, he wrote this book called

15:57

Psychopathia Sexualis, I think is what the

15:59

title was. It is called, it's basically,

16:01

it's sexual psychopaths. It's a, he attempted

16:04

to put, he called them sadistic lust

16:06

murders. And this is in Germany. I thought like

16:08

a lot of people that sewer killers

16:11

are like a product of modern

16:13

America and they are not. That's

16:15

one of the many myths surrounding

16:17

serial killers. They've been around for

16:20

as long as there have been

16:22

people and civilizations. There's a certain

16:24

percentage. The American Psychological Association estimates

16:26

that up to 1% of the

16:29

human population could be diagnosed as

16:31

having psychopathy and up to 30%

16:33

of the population according to the

16:35

APA have psychopathic traits. Now certainly

16:38

all psychopaths, I mean a lot

16:40

of psychopaths who don't kill people. You

16:42

know, the traits are like grandiosity,

16:44

egoscientricity, they tend to be highly

16:47

charming, highly intelligent. All those traits

16:49

we see with like a Ted

16:51

Bundy or Arani al-Kala, you know,

16:54

they apply very well in a

16:56

business context. Like if you have

16:58

no remorse and you're smart and

17:01

charming, you can go far in

17:03

the modern corporate world. There's plenty

17:05

of psychopaths out there. We've all

17:08

encountered them. But those that cross that

17:10

that line into... sexual psychopathy. That's a

17:12

special breed. So in my view, the

17:14

Jack the Rippers, the Ted Bundy's, you

17:16

know, the Jeffrey Domers, the Rodney, I'll

17:19

call as Randy Kraft is another one

17:21

in Orange County, which is a case

17:23

almost nobody's heard of. There's that sexual

17:25

component, that classic, you know, serial killer,

17:27

which I think really is its own

17:30

type and it's it's fascinating in a

17:32

lot of ways. But but when you

17:34

actually have to deal with them interperson

17:36

when you got to go in and

17:38

talk about... court settings and you get

17:41

a sense of just what a whole

17:43

so they really are just to deal

17:45

with them you know when you get

17:47

past the superficial charm they're also the

17:49

first to complain about how cold the

17:51

courtroom is you know or how come

17:53

they're not getting a low-fat diet and

17:55

then they tend to sue a lot

17:57

and alcala famously sued the state of

17:59

California so many times for his on

18:01

slip and fall for a low fat

18:03

diet and on death row. He reported

18:06

one of my good buddies to the

18:08

state bar. He filed a formal state

18:10

bar complaint against one of the prosecutors

18:12

on the case because it's something that

18:15

he did. Like they're just a holes.

18:17

They're the most there. It is it's

18:19

a fascinating thing. So when especially we

18:21

don't know who they are, they are

18:24

monsters. And if you're of course one

18:26

of the victims, they're monsters. But when

18:28

you actually have to you know prosecute

18:31

these guys you start to see this

18:33

different side of them a lot of

18:35

them are kind of we ease for

18:37

lack of a better term they're you

18:40

know they complain a lot they're bitchy

18:42

they you know it's just every you

18:44

see how everything in their universe just

18:46

they the universe revolves around them the

18:49

earth revolves around them every there the

18:51

center of all all being in the

18:53

universe and everybody caters them which feeds

18:55

into that hey it turns me on

18:58

to kill women and rape them so

19:00

I'm just gonna do it. It's it's

19:02

almost they're born out of entitlement like

19:04

an extreme sense of entitlement and a

19:07

lot of them interestingly not only were

19:09

not abused as kids a lot of

19:11

them were spoiled rotten as kids which

19:14

is something that you just nobody talks

19:16

about so I figure I'm gonna throw

19:18

it into in a book number two

19:20

and maybe add to the discussion a

19:23

little bit. Yeah, I love that and

19:25

my other question. God, you're a pro.

19:27

You came right back around to the

19:29

first question I wanted to ask. Are

19:32

we starting to get to a point

19:34

where we in analyzing serial killers are

19:36

weighing the... history, they're passed a little

19:38

bit less now. Like, because we say

19:41

all the time, you know, that person

19:43

was abused by their family, so therefore

19:45

they are going to be responsible for

19:47

abuse for somebody else. But in some

19:50

cases, like you just said, this person

19:52

was spoiled rotten by their family. This

19:54

person, you know, it's a whole scope

19:57

of behaviors and incidents that happened when

19:59

somebody is young. Are we starting to

20:01

weigh that less heavily? because a lot

20:03

of people who are spoiled aren't serial

20:06

killers and a lot of people who

20:08

are abused aren't serial killers. So is

20:10

there any correlation? I think we're definitely,

20:12

you know, your average juror I think

20:15

is gaining sophistication in this area by

20:17

leaps and bounds. And remember, you know,

20:19

it's a bifurcated system in. California and

20:21

like Coburger, for example, Simping and Idaho.

20:24

In a bifurcated system, the jury has

20:26

to consider what are known as factors

20:28

in mitigation. So in California, they're called

20:30

the A through K factors, which is

20:33

essentially anything that lessens the severity of

20:35

the offense. So they in the penalty

20:37

phase, first you have the penalty phase,

20:40

then you have the penalty phase where

20:42

the jury weighs factors in mitigation versus

20:44

factors in aggravation. And California law is

20:46

if the factors in aggravation substantially outweigh...

20:49

those in mitigation, they're entitled at that

20:51

point to vote for death. They're not

20:53

required to, but they can't. That's the

20:55

way the law works. So the factors

20:58

in aggravation tend to be their circumstance

21:00

of the offense and also victim impact

21:02

under what's known as a factor. And

21:04

then you can also consider other crimes

21:07

of violence. So you get into the

21:09

background that way. But you're absolutely right.

21:11

A huge, it's almost a cottage industry

21:13

for certain psychiatrists and psychologists who travel

21:16

under the country who do these deep

21:18

dives into the background. So there's this.

21:20

almost this this built-in life-saving incentive for

21:23

these guys to come up with instances

21:25

of abuse because that will be admitted

21:27

in their favor in in the penalty

21:29

phase and what I think we're seeing

21:32

over and over again you know you

21:34

hear it referred to as the abuse

21:36

excuse but that's the that's the structural

21:38

background why a lot of defense attorneys

21:41

and it's their job to do it

21:43

to to pitch you know whatever defense

21:45

but you know I think that you

21:47

know we're seeing less and less death

21:50

penalty cases in general especially in California

21:52

but you know and it's not severity

21:54

the case we're seeing less prosecutors seeking

21:56

the death penalty but you I think

21:59

juries are are stick of that as

22:01

an excuse. We saw this to a

22:03

large extent in the 70s with like

22:06

the insanity police. 70s and 80s and

22:08

they finally passed a law in California

22:10

that presented obstacles for the for the

22:12

defensive not guilty by reasoning insanity. It's

22:15

far more difficult to achieve that now

22:17

in the state of California as a

22:19

result of that. I think we're starting

22:21

to see the same thing now in

22:24

these bifurcated trials. you know in California

22:26

I don't know it's we live in

22:28

very interesting times right now politically and

22:30

you know today I'm not sure when

22:33

this will air but today we're these

22:35

fires are happening in in California and

22:37

we the the former DA of Los

22:39

Angeles County has a gun him George

22:42

Gascon who was one of these hard-left

22:44

radical ideologues who managed to win election

22:46

and he was in my opinion the

22:49

worst thing for public safety that's ever

22:51

happened in the history of Los Angeles

22:53

County where I grew up and the

22:55

voters caught on to that and voted

22:58

them out. So hopefully we'll see something

23:00

similar when it comes to violent crime

23:02

on a statewide level in California, but

23:04

it seems like we, I heard a

23:07

great quote and I'm going to butcher

23:09

it recently, it's like the, you know,

23:11

history gives us a guide for all

23:13

things in the future, but the problem

23:16

is everybody forgets. So it repeats itself.

23:18

You know, I've butchered the quote and

23:20

I can't remember who said it, but

23:22

it's, we see that in California, the

23:25

violent crime, so we'll see this pendulum

23:27

that swings back and forth. And you

23:29

know, with the just historic loss by

23:31

George Gascon, who's basically an anti-cop, defund

23:34

the police, you know, everybody goes free,

23:36

he wouldn't oppose the release of life

23:38

prisoners when they were up for parole,

23:41

like murders and child messers. you know

23:43

he lost so badly in the county

23:45

of Los Angeles that it almost gives

23:47

me a little bit of hope that

23:50

maybe we'll see some the potential swing

23:52

back more towards some common sense law

23:54

enforcement you know which will be we'll

23:56

hopefully see I don't know more death

23:59

penalty cases for some of these really

24:01

bad murderers that we see. All right,

24:03

we're gonna take a quick break for

24:05

commercial and just a reminder folks that

24:08

we will return at the end of

24:10

this conversation with some final thoughts. Lance,

24:14

come this summer, the missing podcast will

24:17

have been in existence for 10 full

24:19

years. A decade is truly incredible and

24:21

for the next 10 years and more,

24:23

let's continue to discuss missing-person cases, our

24:25

non-profit private investigations for the missing, and

24:27

what else do we have, Tim? Well,

24:30

we talk about the psychology of serial

24:32

killers as well as other types of

24:34

psychology that are related to crime and

24:36

adaptable to missing-person cases. And family members

24:38

and friends of missing persons, authors, journalists,

24:40

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24:43

our favorite guests. So join us for

24:45

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24:49

sponsors and now we're back to the

24:51

program. It's always wild to me just

24:53

to button that point up. It's always

24:56

wild to me that it has to

24:58

be one way or the other. It's

25:00

either like completely defund and you know

25:02

set. criminals free or it has to

25:04

be as hard as possible but like

25:06

there's so much nuance to it the

25:09

defund the police thing is like so

25:11

nuanced like there needs to be new

25:13

training just to be with the times

25:15

and things like that I just don't

25:17

get it and it's just you know

25:19

that whole thing is madness you know

25:22

that the defund the police thing and

25:24

nobody understands the the implications of that

25:26

and when they do that they don't

25:28

cut from you know the patrol officers

25:30

that everybody is so mad at in

25:32

the summer of George Floyd they what

25:35

they do is they cut from the

25:37

gang prevention unit they cut from the

25:39

sexual assault unit where which is or

25:41

the detectives hunting down rapists and child

25:43

monsters it's and so when they they'll

25:45

cut detectives and that's you know like

25:48

these all the cases that we talk

25:50

about you know and I'm lucky enough

25:52

to come back on your show these

25:54

are all cases solved by really good

25:56

detectives and what happens is when they

25:58

cut funding for the police department so

26:00

this guy's just go back out on

26:03

patrol so it's like it is it's

26:05

like community suicide when they do that

26:07

it makes no sense it's like it's

26:09

like cutting back on the fire department

26:11

which Karen Bass the mayor of LA

26:13

famously did by almost 18 million dollars

26:16

in the last budget and now you

26:18

know the Pacific Palisades are burning down

26:20

as we speak you know it's there's

26:22

there's direct consequences to that and then

26:24

when in the world of violent crime

26:26

you know it's like you can happy

26:29

happy joy joy joy as one of

26:31

my friends calls it only for so

26:33

long and then you get guys like

26:35

Rex Huerman running around or these guys

26:37

that are are released too early. And

26:39

you know, when it comes to, you

26:42

know, rehabilitating, you know, your average felon,

26:44

I'm all for it. You know, if

26:46

you can get a guy that learns

26:48

some job skills so they don't repeat.

26:50

Nobody's more reform-minded than me, but there's

26:52

a certain percentage of the population going

26:55

back to ancient Rome and beyond that

26:57

is just plain predatory and the math

26:59

is simple. The more of those guys

27:01

you put in prison for longer, the

27:03

less innocent victims you're going to have,

27:05

especially the serial sex offenders, you know,

27:08

and the psychopaths that commit those kinds

27:10

of crimes. I mean, it is like...

27:12

You know, God help us with these

27:14

with some of these guys that want

27:16

to do the catch and release program

27:18

or no cash bail. And it's, I'm

27:21

hoping that we're seeing a sea change

27:23

and we're going to see the pendulum

27:25

starts swing back in California because it's

27:27

gotten, it's gotten pretty bad. You mentioned

27:29

Rex Huerman and he's out in New

27:31

York and yeah, can you tell us

27:34

a little bit about this case? So

27:36

he was recently arrested. He's known as

27:38

the Long Island serial killer. This guy

27:40

is fascinating guys and here's here's why.

27:42

So this is a lot of serial

27:44

killers. You're a classic serial killer. Remember

27:47

they are superficially charming and they tend

27:49

to be for whatever reason highly intelligent

27:51

like Rodney Okala. And part of that

27:53

means these guys, number one, there's this

27:55

is going to sound weird. There's nothing

27:57

wrong with the moral compass. They know

28:00

that this is wrong. They're not. not

28:02

a psychopath is not somebody suffering from

28:04

psychosis and the word sounds so similar

28:06

a somebody who is suffering from psychosis

28:08

is like somebody mentally ill who thinks

28:10

that you know they're the the poor

28:13

homeless people who see they're screaming at

28:15

trees like there's that there's that level

28:17

of mental illness a psychopath understands everything

28:19

they're doing they just don't care and

28:21

they get off on it and so

28:23

they're gonna do it and it's a

28:26

totally different mindset and they're not worthy

28:28

of our sympathy so They don't want

28:30

to get caught and they want

28:32

to keep doing it and what

28:34

Rex human represents. This guy got

28:37

away with this for years and

28:39

he's almost like this Dexter type

28:41

that figured out a way to

28:44

defeat much of forensic technology because

28:46

the they just. charged him like

28:48

a month ago with the latest

28:50

Valerie Mac who's a 24-year-old sex

28:53

worker. They're making a bunch of

28:55

these cases on what's called mitochondrial

28:57

DNA, which is different. You know,

29:00

when the average person hears, they made

29:02

the case on DNA. We think of

29:04

nuclear DNA and you think that's like...

29:06

the DNA that's found in a cell

29:08

which which commonly in sex crimes it's

29:10

the sperm fraction is what it's called

29:12

it's it's found from spermidozoa that's left

29:14

on or inside these these poor victims

29:16

and that was the way that you

29:19

know so many these guys got caught

29:21

you know when DNA came online and

29:23

the cotus system went in But human

29:25

figured out a way to leave, I

29:27

don't think he's left nuclear DNA on

29:29

anything. So there's two kinds. There's nuclear

29:31

DNA, which is DNA from like

29:33

saliva, or it's from your nuclear

29:35

cell that has the genetic component

29:37

of all, you know, that we

29:39

all have. The other way is

29:42

mitochondrial DNA, that's things like fingernails,

29:44

teeth, and bones. So the numbers

29:46

on nuclear DNA are crazy. Those

29:48

will get like one in 17

29:50

octillion, which is in it. impossible

29:52

number even to wrap your head

29:54

around like but it's so you

29:56

know it basically means there's there

29:58

is zero doubt that it's that

30:00

person's DNA mitochondrial DNA you'll get

30:02

numbers like one in 50 or

30:04

one in 100. So it's not

30:06

as good, but it's still when

30:08

you wrap it in to other

30:10

forms of evidence like in a

30:12

case like Hermann. It's still incredibly

30:14

persuasive on the constellation of evidence.

30:16

So this guy somehow managed to

30:18

kill right now he's charged with

30:20

seven. They suspect him of 19

30:22

and probably more. And of course

30:25

I've got to say I'm an

30:27

attorney so he's presumed innocent, he's

30:29

entitled to the presumption of innocence,

30:31

that's critically important. However, boy the

30:33

evidence looks convincing against this guy.

30:35

And it seems like with every

30:37

new victim, they're releasing just a

30:39

little more. We've got this trickle

30:41

of information. So kind of classic

30:43

example of what we were talking

30:45

about. successful architect in midtown Manhattan,

30:47

not far from where I am

30:49

right now. This guy was incredibly

30:51

successful. He had a wife, he

30:53

had an intact marriage, he had

30:55

a family, and in his spare

30:58

time, when his wife was out

31:00

of town, he was viciously murdering

31:02

sex workers, or allegedly, he's been

31:04

accused of it, but they, one

31:06

of the things he is accused

31:08

of is So they got these

31:10

mitochondrial DNA from hairs from his

31:12

wife and his daughter on some

31:14

of these victims. So not even

31:16

him, which is really fascinating. And

31:18

what they will layer that with

31:20

is when they did the search

31:22

warrant of his home, in a

31:24

safe, he was collecting trophies, which

31:26

is another hallmark of every good

31:28

psychopathic sex offender. They love to

31:31

collect trophies. And his trophies appear

31:33

to be newspaper articles. So there

31:35

would be articles about these things

31:37

and he kept those in a

31:39

safe, which is, I think, devastating

31:41

for the defense, right? Like, I

31:43

mean, I've got all the articles

31:45

that I kept from, like, my

31:47

early days is a DA, right?

31:49

Like, you know, like, like, page

31:51

28. person convicted of DUI and

31:53

as a young as a young

31:55

lawyer it's like hey my name's

31:57

in the paper you know so

31:59

you you kind of stash those

32:01

old papers but imagine that there's

32:04

a laundry list of women he

32:06

suspected of killing in a safe

32:08

in newspaper article so that's that's

32:10

very persuasive there's also some really

32:12

violent apparently pornography that they discovered

32:14

in the search warrant but I

32:16

think one of the most damning

32:18

things for this guy is that

32:20

he would allegedly murder a victim

32:22

take their cell phone and then

32:24

troll their family and he would

32:26

take their cell phone and call

32:28

their family members. So he had

32:30

a burner phone like a throwaway

32:32

phone that he was using that

32:34

his wife wouldn't be able to

32:37

see I guess to access dating

32:39

websites and some of these online

32:41

like sex worker services that he

32:43

could find. So that was one

32:45

phone and then he had his

32:47

own regular phone that he'd communicate

32:49

with colleagues, professional phone and family.

32:51

and then he would have the

32:53

victim's phone and he would be

32:55

calling the victim's family heckling them

32:57

and tormenting them and all three

32:59

of those phones would be in

33:01

his possession apparently at the same

33:03

time as he's pinging from Long

33:05

Island into Manhattan and having prosecuted

33:08

a bunch of murders where you

33:10

have cell phone evidence like that

33:12

that's like footsteps on a beach

33:14

I mean that when when when

33:16

those guys are able to put

33:18

that in a courtroom in front

33:20

of a jury and show where

33:22

the transponders are for those three

33:24

different phones and where they're pinging

33:26

back and forth. I mean it

33:28

is overwhelmingly persuasive. So, but he

33:30

figured out a way somehow to

33:32

murder all these women and prevent

33:34

his own DNA from being left

33:36

on things. So I don't think

33:38

there's any fingerprints. or there might

33:41

be one hair from him, but

33:43

it would, but it's, there's no,

33:45

I don't think there's anything, I

33:47

haven't read anything anyway about any

33:49

sperm fraction DNA, so he's doing

33:51

something to clean them, which I

33:53

think represents the new frontier for

33:55

serial killers. They're, you know, they're

33:57

going to the guys that are

33:59

going to want to do this,

34:01

are going to keep. doing it,

34:03

it's just they're gonna try to

34:05

figure out a way to defeat,

34:07

you know, investigators. And I think

34:09

that's really interesting. So we're seeing

34:11

as the, he represents one of

34:14

the very first in my experience

34:16

that is he's evolved to fit,

34:18

you know, the modern times, which

34:20

is, I just think it's fascinating.

34:22

Yeah, it's really incredible to think

34:24

about how he got away with

34:26

what he did for so long

34:28

and putting it into the context

34:30

of he's evolving with the technology

34:32

and with the times of the

34:34

investigations is like terrifying. Is there

34:36

is there anyone else like on

34:38

the radar that comes close to

34:40

that as far as a serial

34:42

killer? Well we've got I mean

34:44

we still have plenty of active

34:47

serial killers in the United States.

34:49

There's a there's a really interesting

34:51

book written and I'm blank on

34:53

the author's name about Bonhall Truckers.

34:55

and what a perfect profession that

34:57

would be and you know but

34:59

you know there's one of the

35:01

one of the early techniques that

35:03

these guys were doing just just

35:05

to get rid of you know

35:07

to kind of get away that

35:09

for a long time is getting

35:11

rid of the victim's bodies which

35:13

would involve bearing them in the

35:15

desert. A guy named Andrew Erdi

35:17

Alice who's in the Marine Corps

35:20

and that and I'll call it

35:22

to the same thing. The Hillside

35:24

Strangler who turned out to be

35:26

two people working together, Angelo Bono

35:28

and his cousin. They would dump

35:30

the victims like in California in

35:32

the Chaparral and you know they

35:34

in Southern California at least we

35:36

live on the edge of the

35:38

Mojave Desert and you know those

35:40

those bushes that you fly, you

35:42

see in the mountains are full

35:44

animals. So they will get to

35:46

those bodies and destroy almost everything

35:48

of forensic value very quickly. So,

35:50

you know, that's been going on

35:53

for years and years. And then,

35:55

you know, you also see, you

35:57

also see, you also see, they're

35:59

getting better about dumping them in

36:01

like the, in the, you know,

36:03

I've, ahead of, we have an

36:05

unsolved of a sex worker that

36:07

got washed up in Newport Beach

36:09

and it's just, just that time

36:11

in the water alone, it will

36:13

destroy almost any, any DNA that

36:15

you can hope to find. You

36:17

know, so there's, there's definitely, they're,

36:19

they're learning and they're evolving, but

36:21

Huerman was doing, he was like,

36:23

you know, wrapping them up in

36:26

burlap, which somehow must be, you

36:28

can't leave fingerprints on it, but

36:30

he had to be gloves up,

36:32

I think. his MO his way

36:34

of disposing of the bodies which

36:36

involved brutal amounts of violence and

36:38

dismemberment and all sorts of things

36:40

you know assuming you know he's

36:42

the guy who did it but

36:44

whoever the go go beach killer

36:46

is it you know he escaped

36:48

you know the Valerie Mac was

36:50

I believe I believe she's murdered

36:52

in the year 2000 so it's

36:54

you know 25 years now to

36:56

I can't believe it's 25 years

36:59

since you 2000, but you know,

37:01

quarter century, to put that together.

37:03

You know, he's really, I think

37:05

it's, I think it's fascinating, I

37:07

really do. All right, we're going

37:09

to take a quick break for

37:11

commercial, and just a reminder, folks,

37:13

that we will return at the

37:15

end of this conversation with some

37:17

final thoughts. Thanks to our sponsors,

37:19

and now we're back to the

37:21

program. Yeah,

37:24

and calling the victim's families and taunting

37:26

them has got to be one of

37:29

the most evil things that I've heard.

37:31

Right. Is that the same for you?

37:33

Oh, yeah, I mean, that's another thing

37:36

that, you know, as people want to

37:38

sort of, one of the most common

37:40

questions you get prosecuting these guys is,

37:43

my God, what, what made him do

37:45

that? You know, that's what you hear

37:47

over and over again. And the uncomfortable

37:50

truth is, he made him do it.

37:52

they want to do it and they

37:54

that's why he chose to do it

37:56

nobody made him do it you know

37:59

and and you know, you hit the

38:01

nail on the head earlier, like, you

38:03

know, the amount of people that have

38:06

been sexually abused as children, men and

38:08

women, and we've, everybody has

38:10

either, has had bad experiences

38:12

in their lives and, and, and,

38:15

and hurt nobody, you know, like, it

38:17

doesn't, it's not a vampire bite, you

38:19

know, when you're abused as a kid

38:21

or bullied, you know, that doesn't. It's

38:24

not like, we know what happens when

38:26

you get bitten by a vampire, we

38:28

know what happens when you get bitten

38:31

by a zombie, right? Like you turn

38:33

into the walking dead, that's not the

38:35

way it works for childhood abuse, it's

38:37

just not. And one of the, like

38:40

a Marjorie Alice case, he was targeting

38:42

primarily sex workers, but not all the

38:44

victims were, a lot of them were,

38:47

but he murdered this one woman who,

38:49

she had a 11-year-old son, and even

38:51

though she was, she had a huge

38:54

drug problem and was working as an

38:56

escort to deal with that, you know,

38:58

to get money. He, he, he, she

39:00

was all this, this boy had and,

39:02

you know, in the world. And,

39:04

you know, so his mother is,

39:07

his dad wasn't in the picture.

39:09

His mother was taken away from

39:11

him when he was 11 by

39:13

And her early Alice, this horrific

39:15

serial killer. And, He went on,

39:17

he was in foster care and

39:19

then he went on, now he's

39:21

a real estate appraiser, you know, and

39:23

he was in court every day. And what

39:25

was really interesting, watching the dynamic of this

39:27

guy who grew up, Erdiolus, grew up in

39:29

a home with a bunch of brothers and

39:32

sisters who loved him. He was coddled and

39:34

spoiled to death as a kid. And he

39:36

joined the Marine Corps. He was successful there.

39:38

He was a smart guy. He became a

39:41

union steward. He became a mother who not

39:43

only loved him. She probably over loved him.

39:45

if that's if that's a word and and

39:47

you know their talk they try to blame

39:49

the mother's drinking when when she

39:51

was pregnant with him which was not

39:53

accurate it wasn't true and we were

39:56

able to debunk it but they went

39:58

with this fetal alcohol to And there

40:00

in the front row is a guy

40:02

who grew up in real poverty without

40:05

a mom because of what this guy

40:07

did to him. And he was a

40:09

perfectly productive member of society. So when

40:11

it came down to his victim impact

40:14

statement, where he got to talk about

40:16

what it was like to lose, the

40:18

only person in the world that cared

40:20

about him, which was his mom for

40:23

all of her horrific faults. She loved

40:25

him to death and she was the

40:27

only thing that kid had going for

40:29

him. And then he's cast into a

40:32

foster care system. And I have no

40:34

idea what the percentages are for kids

40:36

that are abused in foster care and

40:38

so in California, but it has got

40:41

to be through the roof. And, you

40:43

know, there's been lawsuits about that with

40:45

L.A. County in particular, but, you know,

40:47

and there, you know, he got to

40:49

testify about his upbringing and then you

40:52

contrast it with this guy who had

40:54

every advantage in life and it was,

40:56

it was interesting to see and the

40:58

jury had no problem voting death for

41:01

him and then what was interesting about

41:03

that case is he, he came in

41:05

and it's called the statement of allocution

41:07

where he came in at sentencing. So

41:10

he was convicted of, of, of, five

41:12

but he had he was convicted of

41:14

three more in the Chicago area so

41:16

he was ultimately convicted of eight murdering

41:19

eight different women but certainly killed many

41:21

more but he came in and in

41:23

statement of allocution the whole jury was

41:25

there at sentencing and he said I

41:28

see the jury here you know and

41:30

we we argued it like look this

41:32

guy he got a he got a

41:34

metal in the Gulf War he had

41:37

every like he had every opportunity to

41:39

live this good life and there were

41:41

things that were really good that he

41:43

did that you know I had to

41:46

ask the jury to consider that as

41:48

a factor of mitigation just as an

41:50

outweigh the pain of what he put

41:52

all these poor families through and he

41:55

said you know ladies and you know

41:57

I see you there in the jury

41:59

there in the jury and I just

42:01

want to let you know if I

42:03

was on the jury with you, I

42:06

would have voted the same way you

42:08

did, which was interesting, right? And then

42:10

it... But it sounded like he's just

42:12

blown smoke. And then I think it

42:15

was three or four days later, they

42:17

transported him to San Quentin and he

42:19

hanged himself and carried out the execution

42:21

himself, which was really, it's a fascinating

42:24

thing to look at the mindset of

42:26

somebody like that. And it was almost

42:28

as if he felt like he finally

42:30

got a fair trial, because he didn't

42:33

think he was treated fairly in Chicago.

42:35

And it was an odd. a really

42:37

odd thing, you know, as far as

42:39

like looking at the psyche of one

42:42

of these guys and usually they're far

42:44

too egocentric to ever harm themselves, which

42:46

is another classic trait of these guys

42:48

and the arrogance and egocentricity. Yeah, right.

42:51

But isn't that a moment of being

42:53

arrogant and like owning your own, owning

42:55

your own death? Like, okay, I'm not

42:57

only in charge of... the people that

43:00

I kill but I'm in charge of

43:02

my own death as well that no

43:04

one's gonna be in charge of that

43:06

but me and that reminds me a

43:09

funny story my sister called me on

43:11

Saturday I think it was Saturday Sunday

43:13

morning at like like nine in the

43:15

morning because she was coming off of

43:17

this like binge watch of Israel Keys

43:20

documentary and she was so mad that

43:22

he killed himself And that's the only

43:24

reason why she called me. She was

43:26

like, I can't, I just don't even

43:29

know how else to talk to him.

43:31

I'm so mad that no one got

43:33

a chance to like find justice and

43:35

he took it from them. So I'm

43:38

thinking like, is it, do you think

43:40

that that, that suicide is also just

43:42

another act of being selfish? And might

43:44

just be. Yeah, I mean, he went

43:47

up in a new, in a new

43:49

cell. You know, it was, he'd been,

43:51

he was basically a professional death row

43:53

inmate in Illinois because he was convicted

43:56

of the, of these murders in Chicago.

43:58

And then he was, and then he

44:00

was one of the many prisoners on

44:02

death row that were commuted by Governor

44:05

Gary Ryan on his way to federal

44:07

prison. That was sort of his final

44:09

act out the door. We just saw

44:11

that federally with 37 death row commutations

44:14

in. in federal as somebody who's on

44:16

the way out the door, but I'll

44:18

stay out of that. But, you know,

44:20

the thing about it, I, you know,

44:23

with the families, I think that if

44:25

you, if those guys suicide, like, Epstein

44:27

committed suicide, I think, I think he

44:29

did kill himself, and I don't know,

44:31

I don't pretend to be an expert

44:34

on that, but. you know he did

44:36

it before the trial and before anybody

44:38

got their their day in court. You

44:40

know Erdi Alice you know all these

44:43

people had their day you know and

44:45

he had to listen to family member

44:47

after family member and for sex workers

44:49

it's you know a lot of people

44:52

don't realize that you know a lot

44:54

of them really do still have people

44:56

in their lives who love them you

44:58

know and a lot of the lot

45:01

of those poor people get in it

45:03

because of drugs and their lives get

45:05

out of control or a little bit

45:07

of mental illness and they you know

45:10

they still have people out there who

45:12

loved them so our victims in that

45:14

case were you know they all had

45:16

family in there except for one a

45:19

woman named Denise Manny but everybody else

45:21

had family and not all were sex

45:23

workers but you know they were there

45:25

every day and it's you know when

45:28

it comes to that they got their

45:30

day. and the jury agreed with them

45:32

and that's a that's a really cathartic

45:34

thing for the for the family because

45:37

essentially the jury is making a legal

45:39

and factual determination that their loved one

45:41

despite whatever mistakes they made in their

45:43

life was valuable enough as a human

45:45

being and their death was awful enough

45:48

for lack of better term that the

45:50

person even though everybody knows in California

45:52

they're not actually probably ever going to

45:54

get executed. they still deserve to die

45:57

for what they did. And that is

45:59

that for the family members, believe it

46:01

or not, it is it really does

46:03

deliver a sense of justice to them.

46:06

And so I think for that case

46:08

for me, the way I wanted to

46:10

define it as much as I could

46:12

for those family members was we went

46:15

through the process and we convinced him.

46:17

Not only we convinced the jury, we

46:19

convinced him that he deserved to die.

46:21

And that's why he did it. And

46:24

you know, lot of that is I

46:26

guess it's sort of beauty is in

46:28

the eye of a holder right like

46:30

he what he really did is he

46:33

spared that those families endless appeals you

46:35

know where you know they would be

46:37

challenged for saying this or that and

46:39

their victim impact statement and they would

46:42

be and you see this you know

46:44

this entire industry fighting you know on

46:46

behalf of prisoner sentenced in the state

46:48

of California to death or life without

46:51

possibility of parole, which is the alternative

46:53

sentence for special circumstance murders in the

46:55

state of California, which multiple murder is

46:57

of course one of those. So I

46:59

chose to look at it as we

47:02

convinced him. You know, and I actually

47:04

think we did on that and he

47:06

and it was weird. He came out

47:08

and he goes, and I was very

47:11

nice to his brother and sister. He

47:13

had two sisters and a brother that

47:15

testified. And my my philosophy on that

47:17

is the prosecutor. So it's not the

47:20

family's fault. You know, like these people,

47:22

one of them was a police officer.

47:24

You know, so they'd all gone out

47:26

and done good in the world and

47:29

in their lives and they were nice

47:31

people. And it's like. you know I

47:33

don't want to beat up on them

47:35

they came in and they were it

47:38

was horrible for them and they somehow

47:40

loved their brother despite everything that he

47:42

had done and you know I can't

47:44

fault them for that and so I

47:47

I treated them with dignity and respect

47:49

and he was very angry at the

47:51

prosecutor in in Illinois because the prosecutor

47:53

really went after them and I didn't

47:56

do any of that and so he

47:58

came out and he goes he goes

48:00

you know I just I want to

48:02

speak first to the DA he goes

48:05

I want to thank him for being

48:07

So nice to my brothers, my brother

48:09

and my sisters that testified, which was

48:11

kind of weird. And he said, and

48:13

your power points were so good. And

48:16

then he's like, and I see the

48:18

jury here, and I just want to

48:20

say that, you know, if I was

48:22

one, if I was one of you,

48:25

I would have, I would have voted

48:27

the same way you did. And it

48:29

was just, it was a really, it

48:31

was an interesting thing. And he, you

48:34

know, one of the victims, who survived,

48:36

a woman named Jennifer S. brutalized her.

48:38

She just graduated high school and she

48:40

heroically managed get out of the trunk

48:43

of the car as it was going

48:45

out in the desert. It's like a

48:47

scene out of a horror movie. She's

48:49

running down the road and he's chasing

48:52

her with a machete and a car

48:54

with two elderly people sees this and

48:56

she's all bloody and naked and they're

48:58

like wide-eyed and they kept driving and

49:01

she was saved thankfully and they're in

49:03

a very remote part of the California

49:05

desert at that point. There happened to

49:07

be... another car behind the old couple

49:10

and it was two young guys and

49:12

they did stop and he ran back

49:14

to his car but that was early

49:16

90s so he got away with it

49:19

for a long time and she and

49:21

it was horrific but she described him

49:23

as as just a monster like and

49:25

having a survivor testify about what they

49:27

went through she really spoke for all

49:30

the other women that did not survive

49:32

it's heavy but it's engrossing at the

49:34

same time. And we were talking about

49:36

families of these murderers and this Rex

49:39

Huerman case and his wife. It's kind

49:41

of a little confusing because I guess

49:43

he divorced him immediately, but she also

49:45

says he's not capable of the murders.

49:48

Is that some kind of common reaction

49:50

that you've seen? Well, yeah, when the

49:52

there's almost always a family member in

49:54

the picture for whatever reason that that

49:57

just can't believe it and they, you

49:59

know, they they will buy into and

50:01

sort of cling to any any defense,

50:03

however fanciful it may actually be. And

50:06

so when you look at the phone

50:08

records in that case, I've read a

50:10

bunch of the court documents on that.

50:12

And when they when they overlap the

50:15

phone records, with her schedule, a lot

50:17

of these murders were happening when she

50:19

was out of town. And so her

50:21

coming in and saying he's not capable.

50:24

I think we can shock that up

50:26

to shock an emotion maybe. And, you

50:28

know, I would like to believe that

50:30

she thinks that because that means that

50:33

she never suspected him, which, you know,

50:35

would sort of put her in a,

50:37

you know, in a category of little

50:39

to no culpability in her own right,

50:41

you know, like you want. You know,

50:44

I hope that she was completely in

50:46

the dark because it's far more disturbing

50:48

when they're doing this and they've got

50:50

a family member who suspects but doesn't

50:53

say or do anything about it. Him

50:55

being an architect, I'm curious. Do you

50:57

think that that was like that method

50:59

of thinking, that like exacting method of

51:02

thinking was all part of like his

51:04

character, like DNA when he was in

51:06

his serial killer mode? Again, assuming he's

51:08

the right guy. True, sorry. You know,

51:11

again, presumption of innocence notwithstanding. I absolutely

51:13

think so. I mean, I had a,

51:15

I had an old girlfriend who went

51:17

through her master's program in architecture when

51:20

we were together. So it was a,

51:22

which is crazy what architects have to

51:24

go through. And the level of exact.

51:26

statistics that they have to conform to

51:29

to be as an architect, I mean

51:31

100% right? It has to weigh in

51:33

on that and I can't wait to

51:35

see what happens with the evidence in

51:38

that case because yes that meticulous attention

51:40

to detail that's required in that profession.

51:42

would theoretically lend itself really well to

51:44

somebody who wants to kill a bunch

51:47

of women and get away with it.

51:49

So whatever he was doing to make

51:51

sure that no fingerprints or nuclear DNA

51:53

was discovered was incredibly successful for a

51:56

really long time. And there was another

51:58

factor in this case too. There were

52:00

allegations made against the former chief of

52:02

police in the area that these bodies

52:04

were popping up. And when a new

52:07

guy came in and there was a

52:09

new... and a new task force and

52:11

as soon as the adults came into

52:13

the room on that case, so to

52:16

speak, they solved it very quickly and

52:18

were surveilling him in a really short

52:20

period of time and then soon thereafter

52:22

made an arrest. Soon as they allowed

52:25

some professionals to actually do the work.

52:27

So I, but I think there's, I

52:29

think we're going to learn a lot

52:31

more about that and what he was

52:34

doing to prevent capture. But then again,

52:36

you know, it's like. You know, you

52:38

see this over and over again in

52:40

all kinds of murder cases. They the

52:43

clever ones are 90% genius and or

52:45

90 as an old investigator of mine

52:47

put it, you know, 90% genius or

52:49

95% pure diphshittery, right, like this was

52:52

his word, diphshittery, and you know, you've

52:54

got a guy who goes to all

52:56

these amazing lengths to not get caught,

52:58

right? And then he has a safe

53:01

full of newspaper articles about the murders,

53:03

you know, and, you know, it's like

53:05

he, I think, I think it's probably

53:07

a function of the arrogance. He's got

53:10

the body, he's got, he's dumped the

53:12

body, he thinks he's got his basis

53:14

covered on that, figures he'll never get

53:16

caught. So, hey, why not keep all

53:18

three phones at the same time as

53:21

he's, which it will be. such a

53:23

convincing graph. I mean, I can't, I

53:25

mean, with one cell phone by itself,

53:27

I like, I had a, I got

53:30

named Alahoundra, Ottawa, when I was in

53:32

a homicide, he murdered a six year

53:34

old girl named Samantha Runyon back in

53:36

the day, and he traveled from place

53:39

called Lake Elsinore on Riverside all the

53:41

way to Orange County, and it was

53:43

like when we, when we did the

53:45

timing of it. And when he's pinging,

53:48

it was like it couldn't have been

53:50

anybody but him. And that was just

53:52

with one phone call. I mean, or

53:54

with one cell phone, I with Rex

53:57

Jureman and three phones, that thing is

53:59

going to be, that thing is going

54:01

to be tremendously persuasive when that comes

54:03

out. And I can't wait to see

54:06

that. Well, someone told me you make

54:08

great power points. So I'm sure you

54:10

know. Thank you. Spend a lot of

54:12

time on this power points. I've got

54:15

a couple trials coming up for police

54:17

officers I'm representing in the new year

54:19

and I'm working on one as we

54:21

speak. So hopefully that one is as

54:24

persuasive as some of the other ones

54:26

I did. Well, well, thank you so

54:28

much Matt for spending some time here

54:30

with us today. We really appreciate it.

54:32

We really appreciate it. I really enjoy

54:35

listening to the stuff that you guys

54:37

do. I'm such a true crime nerd

54:39

myself that, it's one of my favorite

54:41

podcasts, so I love coming on and

54:44

have me on any time. Any case,

54:46

any time, happy to do it. You

54:48

can keep complimenting, that's cool. But you

54:50

said my power points were good, so.

54:53

Awesome. Try to try to try to

54:55

stay warm while you're in a... frosty

54:57

New York and when you get back

54:59

to California like I hope everything is

55:02

okay with your property and your friends

55:04

and everything and you know yeah thank

55:06

you so much yeah And

55:19

here we are back for final thoughts

55:22

after the conversation with Matt Murphy, former

55:24

homicide prosecutor and new author. He's so

55:26

knowledgeable in his field lands and you

55:29

know I love speaking about these serial

55:31

killer cases with him. I always get

55:33

so fired up speaking to him because

55:36

he just approaches this with such enthusiasm

55:38

and it's like contagious in the beginning

55:40

of the conversation you can feel it

55:43

right away. Apparently enjoys coming on the

55:45

show, which I'm always a big fan

55:47

of when someone is excited to speak

55:50

with us because that just brings out

55:52

more of my curiosity in the topic.

55:54

I want to know more about what

55:57

he's doing. talking about and I'm always

55:59

super impressed with people like him coming

56:01

from a background of prosecuting crimes of

56:03

homicide you know having to see these

56:06

things having to see them firsthand having

56:08

to see them in pictures having to

56:10

hear people describe them must take a

56:13

toll on you and he has figured

56:15

out a way to separate that emotion

56:17

from the memory you know what I

56:20

mean like you remember these things that

56:22

you've seen but you can't have that

56:24

emotion attached to it you have to

56:27

detach it and figure out a way

56:29

to do so. And maybe writing is

56:31

a way for him to do so,

56:34

maybe surfing or all of the other

56:36

hobbies that he does, but I'm always

56:38

impressed with that. And I think that's

56:40

an important thing to take from this

56:43

conversation is that you can live those

56:45

lives separately in a healthy manner. Yeah

56:47

that's a good good point there and

56:50

because it does seem like he lives

56:52

a very good healthy life outside of

56:54

his work and yeah man though his

56:57

work so fascinating and I think a

56:59

lot of our listeners are fascinated by

57:01

all the stuff he talks about as

57:04

well definitely pick up his book and

57:06

man that second book serial killers are

57:08

assholes that is a first of all

57:11

it's a great title yeah second of

57:13

all I can't wait for it Like,

57:15

I feel like he's writing it for

57:18

us in our audience. Hey, we could

57:20

just say that here. Ladies and gentlemen,

57:22

Matt Murphy is writing you a book,

57:24

specifically you, a listener. And it's true,

57:27

because we have listeners that are just

57:29

endlessly curious about this. And I love

57:31

that he came on the show previously

57:34

a couple of times, and we've talked

57:36

about a number of topics, and one

57:38

of them is serial killers. And there's

57:41

something about serial killers that just... is

57:44

like a bar in his

57:46

side, right? He just needs

57:48

to figure out everything he

57:50

can about this. He needs

57:52

to solve this and he's

57:54

hyper-focused in this particular book

57:56

coming up. So, I mean,

57:59

obviously we're gonna have him

58:01

on again and he's gonna

58:03

talk about. the work that

58:05

he's done for serial killers

58:07

are assholes and it's not

58:09

just meant to be a

58:11

funny title as long as

58:13

we're just riffing here about

58:16

this conversation yeah he literally

58:18

wants you to know that

58:20

they are jerks they have

58:22

no empathy and ultimately they

58:24

are assholes yeah Absolutely, yeah,

58:26

I mean he's had first-hand

58:28

experiences with several, Rodney Alkala

58:31

being one as discussed in

58:33

this conversation, and it seems

58:35

like Alkala, you know, that

58:37

trial lasted a long time

58:39

because Alkala defended himself and

58:41

put the other side through

58:43

hell because of delays and

58:45

things like that, not to

58:48

mention the families. Yeah, I

58:50

mean, it was interesting. He

58:52

mentioned like, you know, they're

58:54

the first people to complain

58:56

about how cold it is

58:58

in the court. And they're

59:00

just like narcissistic arrogant assholes

59:03

all about them. Yeah, everything

59:05

has to be surrounding them.

59:07

Everything has to revolve around

59:09

them. And, you know, ultimately,

59:11

that's what gets them caught.

59:13

Right. There's the blind spot.

59:15

Exactly. All right everyone, well

59:17

thanks so much for listening

59:20

to this conversation. I hope

59:22

you enjoyed it, pick up

59:24

Matt's book, The Book of

59:26

Murder, and look out for

59:28

his new one coming, I

59:30

don't know, probably next year.

59:32

But thanks a lot for

59:35

listening everyone, we really appreciate

59:37

it. Follow us on social

59:39

media at Missing CSM. I

59:44

really need a sign off.

59:46

Any questions from my final

59:48

thoughts sign off? Let me

59:50

know. Lance, come this summer,

59:52

the missing podcast will have

59:54

been in existence for 10

59:56

full years. A decade is

59:58

truly incredible and for the

1:00:00

next 10 years and more,

1:00:03

let's continue to discuss missing-person

1:00:05

cases, our non-profit private investigations

1:00:07

for the missing, and what

1:00:09

else do we have, Tim?

1:00:11

Well, we talk about the

1:00:13

psychology of serial killers as

1:00:15

well as other types of

1:00:17

psychology that are related to

1:00:19

crime and adaptable to missing-person

1:00:22

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1:00:24

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1:00:26

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1:00:28

are some of our favorite

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1:00:47

investigations for the missing because

1:00:49

he knows this feeling all

1:00:51

too well. When Bruce's daughter

1:00:53

Brianna disappeared in March 2004,

1:00:55

he was surrounded by licensed

1:00:57

private investigators dedicated to finding

1:01:00

her. Now his mission is

1:01:02

to provide dedicated private investigators

1:01:04

at no cost to other

1:01:06

families of the missing desperate

1:01:08

for answers but without the

1:01:10

financial means. Private investigations for

1:01:12

the missing needs your help.

1:01:14

To read the mission statement,

1:01:16

make a donation and keep

1:01:19

up with our blog, visit

1:01:21

us at Investigations for the

1:01:23

missing.org and follow us at

1:01:25

PI for the Missing on

1:01:27

Twitter and Facebook and Investigations

1:01:29

for the Missing on Instagram.

1:01:31

Because forever is too long

1:01:33

to wait.