0:03

How do you

0:05

find that belonging

0:07

that you're looking

0:10

for in your

0:12

creative practice? How

0:14

do you find

0:16

that belonging? How

0:19

do you find

0:21

that belonging that

0:23

you're looking for

0:25

in your creative

0:28

practice? I remember

0:31

this moment at a

0:33

particular conference prior to 2020,

0:36

we'll say, you know, mid-20-10s,

0:38

where it was the after

0:40

party and I was just

0:43

feeling in the right place

0:45

at the right time, just

0:48

so in sync, just in

0:50

that sweet spot creatively. And

0:52

it's an incredible thing. The

0:55

only problem is that it's

0:57

temporary. that these spaces change

1:00

in what feels right today

1:02

won't necessarily be where you

1:04

need to be tomorrow. And

1:06

so if you're in a

1:08

place where the platform that

1:10

used to feel like home

1:13

feels stagnant or has maybe

1:15

rapidly changed or if you

1:17

feel like the tools and

1:19

the instruments that used to

1:21

feel like an extension of

1:23

your body now feel clumsy

1:25

and awkward or maybe you

1:28

used to work in this

1:30

medium or industry and it

1:32

used to feel like a perfect fit

1:34

but now it feels like an itchy

1:36

sweater. If that's you, if you're feeling

1:39

that chafing and you don't feel that

1:41

fit in that belonging, what do you

1:43

do? How do you start to navigate

1:46

transitions like that? Today on the show

1:48

we've got a long time friend

1:50

of the podcast and a friend

1:52

of mine, someone who I just...

1:54

absolutely adore and loved catching up

1:57

with Morgan Harper Nichols is back.

1:59

act poet, visual artist, and just,

2:01

you know, neuro divergent friend of

2:04

mine, we just can go into

2:06

these rabbit holes and, uh, just

2:08

get lost talking about creative stuff

2:11

and that's what we did today

2:13

and it was tons of fun

2:15

very very inspiring and I'm excited

2:18

for you to dive in I

2:20

feel like the conversation just gets

2:22

better and better and we get

2:25

some really interesting stuff so stick

2:27

around for all of that and

2:29

then stick to the end because

2:32

I'm gonna be back with the

2:34

CTA the call to adventure how

2:36

to put some of this stuff

2:39

to practice The CTA this week

2:41

is called The Five Cences of

2:43

Belonging. And this was a little

2:46

exercise that really helped me tap

2:48

into a surprising insight of where

2:50

I might. feel like I

2:52

belong today, today, like what

2:54

I'm gonna do today creatively.

2:56

And so stick around for

2:59

that. I think it's a

3:01

really cool exercise that comes

3:03

from something that Morgan said.

3:05

But without further ado, let's

3:07

get into it. Here is

3:09

my chat with Morgan Harper

3:11

Nichols. This

3:22

episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I

3:24

love Squarespace. I'm a longtime user.

3:27

One of the things I love

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about Squarespace is I will use,

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it's so easy to use, that

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I will use it to create

3:36

pitches if I'm pitching. a book

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or I'm pitching something to a

3:40

client, I will use a square

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space page in my website and

3:44

I'll build the whole thing there.

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Then you don't have these clunky

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like document PDFs, clogging up people's

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inboxes and it looks super slick.

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If you want to see one

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of those that I use all

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the time, I did one for

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retailers' prices on your favorite spring fines. a

14:02

lot of people don't realize but like

14:04

social media is like kind of like

14:07

all AI like all machine learning like it's

14:09

a different version of the same thing it

14:11

might not be like generative AI in the

14:13

same way but it's like it does kind

14:15

of it has a lot of similarities

14:17

and I find that very interesting because

14:19

it's like you really don't get a

14:22

lot of information as to how this

14:24

thing is structured and you just get

14:26

kind of thrown into it and they give

14:28

you a few buttons and they say okay you

14:30

can post this here and then you know now

14:32

they have like we can get a bonus and

14:35

you know if you post these many times

14:37

and all these things and it's like

14:39

okay that's that's nice to have shortcuts

14:41

and see that but at the same

14:43

time it's like but we didn't get

14:45

to decide like what the buttons would

14:47

be they were metrics based on how

14:49

people click on a screen or how

14:51

long you stop on a video but

14:53

you didn't like the video so how

14:55

are we going to show you the

14:57

video a different way next time so

14:59

that kind of blackbox aspect of it

15:01

to me I I do struggle with

15:03

that like am I and I think

15:05

in some ways it's why I have

15:08

like a I have like a

15:10

very like mixed relationship with technology,

15:12

like when anything new comes out,

15:14

I actually go all deep into it.

15:16

I'm like, I want to know how

15:18

this thing works and I want to

15:20

know what's not being communicated, what's being

15:22

shared publicly or, and I'm like that

15:25

with whether it's social media or AI

15:27

or whatever, or a fancy smart car,

15:29

which I mean, I don't have, but

15:31

I'm just like, yeah, how, how, how

15:33

does this work? I'm very interested in

15:36

that. I did sometimes it

15:38

does lead to despair you

15:40

know like it can lead to like

15:42

oh this is a lot this is

15:44

a lot that I don't know I

15:46

can't know at all but I want

15:48

to know more than I know but

15:50

then the other side of it is

15:53

like wait but that's actually

15:55

my creative process it's

15:57

it's I don't know like a

15:59

lot lot of times, like the metaphor

16:02

I've been using a lot is

16:04

like, I feel like I swim

16:06

in pools, like, so like I

16:08

feel like I swim in pools

16:10

of images and like pools of

16:12

words. And if you're in a

16:14

pool, sometimes you're in a part

16:16

of a pool where it's like,

16:18

okay, I'm in like the, the

16:20

kid section. you know, I can

16:22

I can feel right where my

16:24

feet are. I'm not really thinking

16:26

too much, but there's other parts

16:28

of the pool that are deeper.

16:30

It's like, okay, even if you

16:32

know how to swim, like, it's

16:34

still a little bit deeper here

16:36

to pay a little bit more

16:38

attention. And I've been thinking about

16:41

it that way in terms of

16:43

like, I kind of like, it's

16:45

not that I don't like the

16:47

mystery black box kind of thing.

16:49

It's just, I want to be

16:51

able to be able to create

16:53

that in a What I've done

16:55

is like, I actually have, and

16:57

it's like just out of my

16:59

reach, and I started reorganizing it

17:01

so it doesn't look good right

17:03

now. But I have like, just

17:05

like a cheap file cabinet box

17:07

where I started cutting up words

17:09

and I started like taking my

17:11

existing work and cutting up words

17:13

and like I just put the

17:15

words in the box and then

17:17

I like shake it up and.

17:19

It's my own writing. So when

17:21

I see it, I kind of

17:24

know like, okay, I was talking

17:26

about that. But then I kind

17:28

of like make new combinations like

17:30

out of my own work. And

17:32

it's just been really like, it's

17:34

been really like just revitalizing like

17:36

the way I think about how

17:38

things can be made. It's like

17:40

I'm allowed to like play with

17:42

the structure, including the structures I've

17:44

built. It's like, I have some

17:46

things I've written. I know it

17:48

so well off top of my

17:50

head. I'm like. I can cut

17:52

that up too. Why not? Like

17:54

let's cut it up. Let's see.

17:56

So I've been doing a lot

17:58

of collage and just like allowing

18:00

myself to like play with those

18:02

like structural elements more and and

18:05

and break it apart. And I

18:07

find that to be like. really

18:09

freeing because it's like I'm still

18:11

on social media like I'm still

18:13

like a lot of times in

18:15

the same spaces but it's just

18:17

like a small way that I

18:19

feel like well here's like my

18:21

kind of subversion of it like

18:23

there's a movie called Ready Player

18:25

1 I don't know if you've

18:27

seen it but there's I don't

18:29

think I'm a little bit of

18:31

the books I kind of know

18:33

the oh oh okay yeah I've

18:35

never read the book but I

18:37

don't think I'm Yeah, I'm I'm

18:39

going to treat by the book

18:41

now. So I don't think I'm

18:43

spoiling this when I'm saying it

18:45

because it happens pretty early in

18:48

the movie. But there's a scene

18:50

where the main character that getting

18:52

ready to do a race and

18:54

he's in the race, but he

18:56

decides to start the race by

18:58

putting in the car in reverse

19:00

and going the exact opposite way

19:02

and he ends up. So I

19:04

think he wins. I actually can't

19:06

remember what happens. But he's still

19:08

a part of the race. And

19:10

I love that scene because I'm

19:12

like, that to me is what

19:14

this moment feels a lot a

19:16

lot. I'm like, okay, I'm on

19:18

Earth. I'm not really trying to

19:20

leave Earth personally. I'm like. I'm

19:22

here, okay, I've accepted it. At

19:24

this moment, I don't know, a

19:26

really cool spaceship could come down

19:29

tomorrow. And I'm like, hey, they

19:31

actually have a great pitch, let's

19:33

go, let's go to this new

19:35

planet, they're discussing. That could happen,

19:37

it hasn't happened yet. Oh. Well,

19:39

I'm on Earth, I'm staying there,

19:41

well, maybe not, okay. Exactly. Yeah,

19:43

you don't even know these days,

19:45

so, yeah. At the moment, I'm

19:47

like, all right, I'm here. And

19:49

here on this earth, there are

19:51

structures in place, there are systems,

19:53

there are things that I'm like,

19:55

okay, all right, I didn't make

19:57

that, I didn't get to decide

19:59

on any of this. But I

20:01

think about like, well, what's my

20:03

version of like going in reverse?

20:05

What's my version of like subverting

20:07

what is? And that has been.

20:10

That's been keeping me going, I

20:12

think. Yes, I love it. I

20:14

mean, I'm gonna, there's so many

20:16

things to pull out here. I'll

20:18

start with, I'm not a huge,

20:20

I'm not anti-endogram, but I'm not

20:22

a huge anyogram person, like, you

20:24

know, I spent some time like

20:26

exploring it and whatever. And there's

20:28

cool things about it. I like

20:30

personalities, I do like personality like

20:32

frameworks. I do, I'm interested in

20:34

that. Same, I too. but I'm

20:36

open with it. It's more like

20:38

it's similar to the way that

20:40

you're cutting up your poems and

20:42

stuff. That's kind of how I

20:44

think about personality tests where it's

20:46

like, what can I see in

20:48

this rather than this is what

20:50

it is? Like, I don't know

20:53

if that makes sense, but it's

20:55

more just like frameworks for like

20:57

thinking through personality and the any

20:59

of RAM4, which is like a

21:01

thing that a lot of artists

21:03

relate to, they're drawn to what's

21:05

missing. And I do think artists

21:07

have a thing of, I think

21:09

it's why so often, the creative

21:11

thing is the opposite of whatever's

21:13

happening. It's whatever the mainstream is

21:15

doing or whatever the dominant worldview

21:17

is, the creative notion is the

21:19

thing that's doing the opposite of

21:21

that or subverting that, just like

21:23

you're saying. And so I really

21:25

relate to that. It sounds like

21:27

that's a little bit of what

21:29

you're kind of exploring. And I've

21:31

had. I've related that, this idea

21:34

of going backwards in the car,

21:36

like what is the subversive thing

21:38

to do in a moment where

21:40

what's the subversive thing, the creative

21:42

thing to do when what the

21:44

mainstream is doing is, you know,

21:46

quote unquote, being creative with. loading

21:48

the universe with content, right? So

21:50

I've had that same feeling over

21:52

the past few years. At first,

21:54

I was kind of like, well,

21:56

the opposite of that would be

21:58

doing nothing. And so that was

22:00

very uninspiring, because you're like, but

22:02

I am creative, I don't want

22:04

to do nothing. And so I

22:06

think where I've landed now is,

22:08

I've shifted gears to doing longer

22:10

projects that are much slower, that

22:12

are much more in depth. And

22:15

I think nothing I'm making is

22:17

at the level of severance. But

22:19

I think severance is a great

22:21

example of, severance feels like the

22:23

opposite of internet content because it's

22:25

gone back to this, not bingeable.

22:27

releasing a week at a time,

22:29

has a strategy and an outline

22:31

of where it's going rather than

22:33

just tripping out stuff as it's

22:35

as you're making it. I don't

22:37

know if any of that is

22:39

like is relevant per se, but

22:41

that's how it relates to I

22:43

really relate to this idea of

22:45

kind of always feeling like what's

22:47

the reverse move. Yeah. Right now.

22:49

You know. Yeah, I do relate

22:51

to that because like it's it's

22:53

like the first the word that

22:55

came to mind when you're saying

22:58

that was format and it's like

23:00

in a way the traditional format

23:02

now feels like a subversion of

23:04

format like you're saying yeah you

23:06

have to like sit and wait

23:08

for Epps like I think I

23:10

remember Apple TV I remember watching

23:12

the morning show and that and

23:14

and I was getting used to

23:16

that like waiting every week I'm

23:18

like Oh, I forgot what this

23:20

feels like. Like, I forgot what

23:22

it feels like to not have

23:24

everything on demand. And we've actually

23:26

been like inspired in our house.

23:28

We've actually decided that we're gonna

23:30

start like a DVD collection. Like,

23:32

we're like, hey, we're going back.

23:34

I was like, I, I, and,

23:36

and the only ship there is

23:39

like. it's the form like it's

23:41

a lot of the movies I

23:43

could get them digitally virtually the

23:45

movie doesn't change in most of

23:47

these cases but the form the

23:49

experience of like picking up the

23:51

disk and putting it in the

23:53

DVD player and like that whole

23:55

experience is a version in a

23:57

way. And I just think that

23:59

that is so cool because it

24:01

like it takes the pressure off

24:03

of like being an artist always

24:05

need to reinvent. It's like maybe

24:07

you don't have to reinvent like

24:09

maybe it's something that already exists

24:11

but we've kind of like gotten

24:13

away from it like in the

24:15

name of efficiency or whatever and

24:17

you can actually go back to

24:19

that. So yeah, I find that.

24:22

I find that very freeing. Yeah,

24:24

I love that. I think, yeah,

24:26

I mean, I think there is

24:28

a thing about creating, I mean,

24:30

for me, kind of, there is

24:32

the reverse move of doing something

24:34

different to what the culture is

24:36

doing, and that there's an element

24:38

of that where it's like keeping

24:40

it fresh, doing new things. But

24:42

for me, this is something I

24:44

almost hear no artists talk about.

24:46

And so it's kind of a

24:48

weird thing because it's something that's

24:50

so central to me, but sometimes

24:52

I usually feel pretty grounded in

24:54

it, but sometimes I think, why

24:56

am I thinking about this so

24:58

differently than other people, which is

25:00

so much of what I feel

25:03

like I'm doing is almost less

25:05

of pushing forward and more like

25:07

tapping into something we forgot. So,

25:09

which is not necessarily going backwards,

25:11

but it's like, it's most of

25:13

what I'm building stuff on is

25:15

usually something that feels like a,

25:17

I struggle to say fundamental truth

25:19

because there's baggage with that idea,

25:21

but, but it is stuff about

25:23

like, yeah, things that we forgot.

25:25

And so there's a, there is

25:27

like a going back thing and

25:29

not needing to reinvent. But, but,

25:31

you know, on this notion of

25:33

DVDs and whatnot, another thing that.

25:35

I do a lot is I

25:37

listen to internet radio. And again,

25:39

it's like, my favorite is probably

25:41

NTS, but the lot radio is

25:44

really good too. And they're just

25:46

web pages that you go. to

25:48

listen to the radio. And there's

25:50

something about, again, it was great

25:52

when you had access to all

25:54

the world's music and all the

25:56

control is in your hands, but

25:58

then at some point that becomes

26:00

stale and you're like, well, somebody

26:02

else decide what to put on?

26:04

It's like, yeah, yeah, I totally

26:06

agree with that. Yeah, to me,

26:08

it feels, it feels like more

26:10

than... because I've really been struggling

26:12

with the word nostalgia a lot

26:14

lately because I feel like sometimes

26:16

when I say like a lot

26:18

like that's kind of the oh

26:20

yeah nostalgia I'm so I'm like

26:22

I think it's more than that

26:24

I think it's more than like

26:27

just going back and like longing

26:29

for the past like it's not

26:31

quite that but For me, it

26:33

just feels more of like you're

26:35

on a journey and you collect

26:37

things along the way on the

26:39

journey and some of those things

26:41

you leave behind and some of

26:43

them you carry with you. Like

26:45

for me, I mean, it's very

26:47

cliche, but I like to get

26:49

postcards when I go places, because

26:51

I'm like, it's really cheap. You

26:53

can get a postcard for a

26:55

dollar or less and it's something

26:57

you can always have. And I

26:59

still like to do that, even

27:01

though I can take my own

27:03

photos. And it so it's it's

27:05

not it's just like this is

27:08

like a record of like the

27:10

journey that I've been on like

27:12

it's it's a it's a not

27:14

just like my artistic journey but

27:16

just like as a human so

27:18

why not figure out how to

27:20

bring those things into the fold

27:22

like when I was a kid

27:24

like I remember being in school

27:26

like I loved when we got

27:28

to do cool things with paper.

27:30

and back then it was like

27:32

origami I was really bad at

27:34

it and then like those little

27:36

you know like little fortune teller

27:38

things I don't know if you're

27:40

making those I was so bad

27:42

I was making tons of those

27:44

I love that I was I

27:46

was so bad at it but

27:49

I was so excited about it

27:51

so it's not like today I'm

27:53

not like oh yeah I'm not

27:55

good at it but I'm loving

27:57

it Yeah, exactly. And that's kind

27:59

of, but what you just said,

28:01

though, that's kind of been my

28:03

approach now, like with this whole

28:05

collage thing I'm doing. I'm like,

28:07

I actually don't know if I'm

28:09

good at this kind of art.

28:11

And it's not like, oh, I

28:13

love collage as a kid. I

28:15

don't even think I would have

28:17

run that word. Like, it was,

28:19

it's not the exact same thing,

28:21

but there's just like traces, and

28:23

it could just be like a

28:25

flicker of like an a curiosity

28:27

and I'm really intrigued by that

28:29

and I don't think those things

28:32

are like stuck with time. I

28:34

think the same me that was

28:36

interested in like origami as a

28:38

kid is the same me that

28:40

was like interested in like oh

28:42

what's this Instagram app? Let me

28:44

download that. So it's like it

28:46

can change like just just try

28:48

to like just don't limit yourself

28:50

maybe like to this moment exactly.

28:52

There's a poet I really like

28:54

David White. Yes. I need to

28:56

I need to go actually read

28:58

the whole thing. I did it.

29:00

I turned to short form content.

29:02

I looked at it really quick.

29:04

I was like, yes, great thoughts.

29:06

But he was actually talking about

29:08

that and like. I think it

29:10

was kind of described, he's like

29:13

the limitations of like always thinking

29:15

about the present. He was like,

29:17

we're we're made of like the

29:19

past too. He's like, he's like

29:21

the past is like right here

29:23

and that's something we need to

29:25

think about. So yeah, I think

29:27

that to me, I think that

29:29

extends a little bit further than

29:31

just like nostalgia. Like I think

29:33

that's how it always gets, not

29:35

always, but it often gets framed

29:37

that way. And I'm like, oh,

29:39

I think it's something more than

29:41

that more than that. I so

29:43

relate to that. And there's a

29:45

couple things going on there that

29:47

I think are really interesting. One

29:49

is, like, again, this idea of

29:51

the artist kind of gravitating towards

29:54

what's missing, it's interesting that the

29:56

culture for the past decade or

29:58

two has been so obsessed with

30:00

being in the moment, present moment,

30:02

being in the now, you know,

30:04

that. kind of thing for artists

30:06

like you to feel like, well,

30:08

okay, yeah, great. Good, we're doing

30:10

that. But also the past, there's

30:12

some, you know, the past is

30:14

a part of us and there's

30:16

value in the past and I

30:18

love what you said about the

30:20

nostalgia thing because I totally, I

30:22

get what you're saying where it's

30:24

almost like a way, it's kind

30:26

of the way that we. put

30:28

a word on something in order

30:30

to distance ourselves from it. You

30:32

know, like again, philosophers talk about

30:34

like the word tree makes you

30:37

not have to engage with what

30:39

the tree actually is. You're just

30:41

engaging with the idea of a

30:43

tree. And the same goes for

30:45

like you're describing something, some kind

30:47

of weird encounter or important encounter

30:49

with the past that you're having.

30:51

Or not even the past, but

30:53

something true, maybe something timeless, is

30:55

it whatever. But because it has

30:57

to do with the past, people

30:59

just think, oh yeah, nostalgia, love

31:01

nostalgia, or hate nostalgia, or whatever.

31:03

Right? I totally get that. But

31:05

then there's this other thing of

31:07

like, yeah, I don't know, it's

31:09

almost like, this feels more vague

31:11

to me or like unclear, but

31:13

I also think it's kind of

31:15

like. It's interesting

31:17

where there's like a conservation

31:20

of Because we live in

31:22

this techno futurism thing We're

31:24

assuming that the best the

31:26

ideal form is in the

31:28

future Whereas like what if

31:30

like vinyl was the ideal

31:32

form for music? Yeah, oh

31:34

what we don't yeah, obviously

31:36

some people do but a

31:38

lot as a lot as

31:40

a culture we kind of

31:42

think Everything that were that's

31:44

worth having doing pursuing is

31:46

in the future or Yeah,

31:48

it's yeah, it's yeah, I've

31:50

been thinking about that a

31:52

lot because it's It's a,

31:54

and I could rant for

31:57

hours about the whole music

31:59

thing. Oh, because, so something

32:01

I've thought about a lot

32:03

was like, so I used

32:05

to like be a professional

32:07

musician, like that was like,

32:09

I was like, I wouldn't

32:11

be a professional. I won't

32:13

have win awards and make albums

32:15

and do all of that. And I really

32:17

wrestle with that for a while because

32:19

I think I became very like jaded

32:21

by the music industry. And I think

32:23

that that. kind of made me not

32:25

want to make music anymore. And

32:28

those things aren't the same. Music

32:30

industry and music aren't the same

32:32

things. They become the same things in

32:35

our world, but there's music exists outside

32:37

of industry. And I think that I

32:39

stop even thinking about like picking up

32:42

a guitar, like or playing piano because

32:44

I was I had hooked it on

32:46

to industry. I made music mean industry.

32:49

And then I just started thinking

32:51

about like just like historically

32:53

speaking like just within

32:55

my own like family

32:57

like within like the

32:59

black community and how

33:01

how important like singing

33:04

was like communally and

33:06

oral storytelling and it's like

33:09

all of those things mattered

33:11

and still matter today even

33:13

whether or not the recording

33:15

industry ever existed. I was

33:17

like, whether or not microphones

33:19

ever got made, whether or

33:21

not anybody recorded the song.

33:23

Like, I can sing songs right now

33:25

that my mother taught me, that her

33:27

mother taught her, that her mother taught

33:29

her, and generations all the way back

33:32

to like... the point of like where

33:34

my ancestors were enslaved and here I

33:36

am today and I can still carry

33:38

those songs forward and all of

33:40

that is possible without it ever having

33:43

been recorded. So I think that I

33:45

think about that kind of thing a

33:47

lot because I think it's it can be

33:49

very easy to like you said like we

33:52

think about the future like okay we've

33:54

made the best version and it's

33:56

like maybe that's just one version

33:58

like maybe there maybe Maybe there's

34:00

something too. People just singing a

34:02

song in a room and the

34:05

song just happened one time in

34:07

that room. and like if you

34:09

ever listen like a live recording

34:11

of an album like it it's

34:13

like a totally different sound than

34:15

like a studio recording of an

34:18

album like the musicians being in

34:20

the room together has a different

34:22

sound than the musicians recording in

34:24

parts and I say that has

34:26

as someone who's done both studio

34:29

sessions and live sessions as a

34:31

guitar player it's different is a

34:33

different experience like I personally feel

34:35

like I play better when I'm

34:37

in the live room with everybody

34:39

and That's not to say that

34:42

there's anything wrong with the studio.

34:44

And I'm just one person, but

34:46

I think it's just, I think

34:48

it could be valuable to just

34:50

stay open to the fact that

34:53

like, yeah, you might not, we

34:55

might not always be at like

34:57

the peak of the thing, you

34:59

know. Exhima

35:08

isn't always obvious, but it's real.

35:11

And so is the relief from

35:13

Epglis. After an initial dosing phase

35:15

of 16 weeks, about four and

35:17

ten people taking Epglis achieved its

35:20

relief and clear or almost clear

35:22

skin. And most of those people

35:25

maintained clear or almost clear

35:27

skin, and most of those

35:29

people maintained skin that's still

35:31

more clear at one year

35:33

with monthly dosing. Ebglis, library

35:35

kizumab, LBK, with moderate to

35:37

severe ecma. You

36:27

know I'm thinking about this through

36:29

the lens of anybody that was

36:31

listening to this as a podcast

36:33

and I'm thinking about how as

36:35

an outside of this conversation if

36:37

I put myself in those shoes

36:39

I start thinking about how this

36:41

relates to their creative practice and

36:43

I think that what I find

36:46

as a creator inspiring that you're

36:48

saying is I keep feeling like

36:50

I will encounter so many artists

36:52

that are frustrated with how noisy

36:54

it is on the internet and

36:56

how and and longing for a

36:58

previous version of Instagram or yeah

37:00

time when you know Flickr was

37:02

around and you could like really

37:05

break in and whatever logical feeds

37:07

yeah like I can feel that

37:09

and there's a feeling of like

37:11

well it's just too late now.

37:13

because you can't get started now,

37:15

you can't, whatever it is you're

37:17

trying to accomplish. And it's, I

37:19

think, there's a through line here

37:22

of this reverse move, like what's

37:24

the reverse move? It also, I

37:26

know we're both like storytelling people,

37:28

and so I think you might

37:30

relate to this, it also reminds

37:32

me of like the Joseph Campbell,

37:34

the return home. So there's a,

37:36

that's also a reversal. And it.

37:38

You talking about like there's and

37:41

this is what I was going

37:43

to say is that the great

37:45

thing about creative practice and creative

37:47

journey is there's always a place

37:49

to go because there's always a.

37:51

a reversal. There's always like, oh,

37:53

well, yes, okay, it, creativity, similar

37:55

to what you're talking about with

37:57

music being synonymous with industry. Creativity

38:00

right now, if you're trying to

38:02

do creative things, there is a

38:04

way in which it feels like

38:06

to me, it's synonymous with being

38:08

online. Maybe even chronically online, where

38:10

creativity equal, there is no creativity

38:12

outside of online. Again, this kind

38:14

of gets this thing of like

38:16

people thinking that, you know, like

38:19

online versus IRL, except most of

38:21

us live like if it didn't

38:23

happen online, it wasn't real life.

38:25

Like that was where it actually

38:27

becomes relevant. Maybe that's because it's

38:29

like on the world stage, like

38:31

I don't know why, but there's

38:33

a bunch of reasons, but that's

38:35

what I hear in what you're

38:38

saying is like, okay, yes, the

38:40

way that we've been going. moving

38:42

forward, moving in technology, moving in

38:44

online, has become incredibly congested and

38:46

you know, but there's always a

38:48

move and that move might not

38:50

look like Spotify, it might look

38:52

like being in a room with

38:54

people. Like, you know, that kind

38:57

of thing. Yeah, and yeah, and

38:59

I, you know, as, as an

39:01

introvert, that's been hard for me

39:03

to wrestle with sometimes because it's

39:05

like, Instagram in particular has been

39:07

an ideal form for my introverted

39:09

neurodivergent self because I can think

39:11

and publish and share in small

39:13

parts and it's been helpful for

39:16

me in that way and at

39:18

the same time like as a

39:20

plot like and I wonder if

39:22

like people have different thresholds of

39:24

like where they're just like no

39:26

I think this is becoming harder

39:28

for me for me like the

39:30

threshold was when Instagram started like

39:32

mimicking the the feed where it's

39:35

like they're showing your post to

39:37

more people who don't follow you

39:39

that was like a big like

39:41

threshold moment for me because I

39:43

was like so much of what

39:45

I do is like about like

39:47

the community that I'm talking like

39:49

It's hard for me to have

39:51

to start from scratch to like

39:54

every single post and just throw

39:56

it out into the wild. So

39:58

that was very challenging for me.

40:00

And it might sound strange to

40:02

say, but like I've kind of

40:04

grieved some of that loss of

40:06

like, oh, I kind of missed

40:08

that. But at the same time,

40:10

what's been really and it took

40:13

I would say I've been I've

40:15

been like wrestling with this for

40:17

like a year and a half.

40:19

But right now I'm working on

40:21

a new book and that's been

40:23

very exciting. Like I have been

40:25

going back through things that I've

40:27

shared on Instagram as Engagement has

40:29

gone down as like the followers

40:32

haven't you know all that stuff

40:34

and I've been Letting the comment

40:36

section no matter how few comments

40:38

there were like letting that remind

40:40

me of like hey what happened

40:42

here still mattered and bringing that

40:44

into a book form and like

40:46

seeing like when someone mentioned like

40:48

oh I like that analogy used

40:51

about the tree or whatever I'm

40:53

like oh that is like evidence

40:55

of like work that I've done

40:57

that's valuable it's not if Instagram

40:59

went away tomorrow if I deleted

41:01

the app tomorrow that it doesn't

41:03

lose its value even because it's

41:05

changing form it's like I can

41:07

carry that with me, even on

41:10

this very like ephemeral like. temporary

41:12

form. It's like back then when

41:14

I posted it, yeah, I was

41:16

probably thinking about the algorithm. I

41:18

was probably mad that it didn't

41:20

perform as well because I spend

41:22

a long time on my work.

41:24

I spent a lot of hours,

41:26

like every single word choice, every

41:29

color choice, like I spent a

41:31

lot of time on my work.

41:33

So yeah, it can be a

41:35

bummer when it's like the engagement's

41:37

not there. You see the engagement

41:39

go down. Like I actually feel

41:41

like the more time I spend

41:43

on work. sometimes like the less

41:45

engagement against. And I'm like, what

41:48

is this about? But at the

41:50

same time, like, even if there

41:52

were just a few comments or

41:54

I like sometimes I've been like

41:56

going through old emails that I've

41:58

gotten. And that's from my mailing

42:00

list. I love having a mailing

42:02

list because it's searchable when like

42:04

people have emailed me. So I've

42:07

been like just searching for different

42:09

things of like, like I do

42:11

a monarch butterfly. So I'll like

42:13

type in. monarch butterfly. And I

42:15

can see from like five years

42:17

if someone mentioned a monarch butterfly

42:19

in an email to me, they

42:21

were responding about something. And I

42:23

take that with me into a

42:26

new project, which is a book,

42:28

like an old-fashioned book that you

42:30

can print out. So it's all

42:32

connected. And I think that's really

42:34

cool, because it's like, even as

42:36

I think relationship with a form,

42:38

a platform, whatever form changes, you

42:40

can kind of shift it into

42:42

new spaces too. So. I love

42:45

that. I love what you commented

42:47

on with this change in the

42:49

form. Everyone, you're not alone. There's

42:51

a lot of grief on the

42:53

way that the platforms have changed,

42:55

the internet's changed, the where it's

42:57

going, all that kind of stuff.

42:59

And conceptualizing those changes, verbalizing those

43:02

changes. because they're I think that's

43:04

one of the things that's so

43:06

hard about all of this is

43:08

the thing you were talking about

43:10

the start which is this black

43:12

box element at what one of

43:14

the things that is creating some

43:16

level of like micro it's a

43:18

it's like a it's it's almost

43:21

I wouldn't call it traumatic that's

43:23

too far but there's this thing

43:25

of where There's a psychological war

43:27

that's happening when you're using these

43:29

apps. And it's a black box

43:31

element where you're not a way.

43:33

That's one of the. things that's

43:35

so disconcerting about engaging is that

43:37

you you it's not transparent what's

43:40

happening right like in in other

43:42

lot like it's one we're aware

43:44

of when you go to to

43:46

go buy a car we are

43:48

aware that this is a psychological

43:50

warfare that's why most people don't

43:52

want to do it. And you

43:54

know about it and you like

43:56

my older brother. He loves it.

43:59

He's also this kind of person

44:01

where he's the kind of person

44:03

that would sell you a car.

44:05

He also the car, okay? He

44:07

likes it. It's a game, right?

44:09

But we're aware of those spaces

44:11

in real life where, oh, there's

44:13

something, there's more going on. And

44:15

I think that one thing that

44:18

I thought was really. you know,

44:20

powerful in terms of decision making

44:22

and what is the reversal, what

44:24

is moving forward, what is my

44:26

reaction going to be? One of

44:28

the things you got to do

44:30

is like, think about what is

44:32

happening and conceptualize it. So this

44:34

idea of, there was a time

44:37

where what you were making was

44:39

for a community. was for a

44:41

group of people. And then that

44:43

shifted to now 80% of the

44:45

people that see this don't have

44:47

any context. And it conceptualized it

44:49

for me in a way where

44:51

for a long time, you're making

44:53

a TV show where there's a

44:56

through line every episode and you

44:58

can't start on episode 87. You

45:00

have to understand an understanding. Whereas.

45:02

Then it was overnight the network

45:04

said actually this is a thing

45:06

where everyone that sees it's going

45:08

to be expecting this to be

45:10

self-contained And the thing is there's

45:12

no No one's giving you those

45:15

notes. No one's giving you that

45:17

heads up. And so that's why

45:19

I like us talking about it

45:21

too because there's not a space

45:23

to Think about know about talk

45:25

about and and so in we

45:27

just end up becoming I end

45:29

up becoming incredibly suspicious of all

45:31

of these moves. You know, one

45:34

of the things that I'm really

45:36

suspicious about is these platforms giving

45:38

creators tools and tips and tutorials

45:40

and tutorials and trends and investing

45:42

all of this stuff into helping

45:44

you. And I'm like, okay, why?

45:46

Why are you doing that? Oh,

45:48

I know. Is your TV network

45:50

that doesn't pay for your shows?

45:53

That's what, right? You want us

45:55

to make it. And I was

45:57

thinking about the other day like.

45:59

Remember when my creative strategy was,

46:01

I'm gonna post a still image

46:03

on Instagram once a week. Yeah.

46:05

And that was my, you know

46:07

what I mean? And so it's

46:09

just, yeah, I don't know what

46:12

I'm getting at. And I'm just

46:14

like saying what you're saying in

46:16

a different way. Yeah, and I

46:18

think you're kind of like naming

46:20

the terms. And I think that's

46:22

what you're, what you're saying. And

46:24

I think you have to kind

46:26

of name it and start to

46:28

name it because if you don't

46:31

it just kind of just becomes

46:33

like this endless endless endless thing.

46:35

And like one thing that's been

46:37

helpful for me and like one

46:39

and that's when I mentioned like

46:41

the showing it beyond my community

46:43

of like of like it's okay

46:45

to start with like what you

46:47

don't like like it's okay to

46:50

say like no it's that feature

46:52

that's pushing me to want to

46:54

delete the whole thing like it's

46:56

that specific thing like there's some

46:58

things that don't bother me as

47:00

like a lot of people like

47:02

what Instagram particular a lot of

47:04

people for them they may have

47:06

been reals launch or like I

47:09

just can't deal with that. I

47:11

doesn't bother me as much because

47:13

I follow a lot of animators

47:15

and motion graphs and I'm like

47:17

this is actually great like I

47:19

like the feature but so I

47:21

think knowing what those things are

47:23

because then that helps you that

47:25

helps you like make connections with

47:28

what you might want to change

47:30

because it's like you might not

47:32

you don't have to go make

47:34

your own Instagram like you don't

47:36

have to go recreate the whole

47:38

thing and I'm like oh no

47:40

the part that stresses me out

47:42

is the fact that the stuff

47:44

on I'm sharing is just going

47:47

to have to go out all

47:49

over the place, and then I

47:51

have to manage that. And I

47:53

even narrowed it down, because when

47:55

I started talking about this, a

47:57

lot of people were saying, like,

47:59

oh, don't worry about the haters.

48:01

And I was like, okay, yeah.

48:03

And I realize, actually, I've been

48:06

on the internet a long time,

48:08

like, it takes me, it takes

48:10

a lot. I'm like, I'm like,

48:12

it's the management of it. It's

48:14

the fact that people can come.

48:16

being totally transparent, more just annoying.

48:18

I'm like, I'm not like, I'm

48:20

not offended. I'm like, I'm just

48:22

annoyed because we're trying to have

48:25

a conversation. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.

48:27

So I'm like, oh, that annoys

48:29

me. You know, it's not to

48:31

say that I don't want to

48:33

connect with other people out there,

48:35

but it's like. It's like I

48:37

get to decide what the terms

48:39

are and in the way that

48:42

I do that. So I've been

48:44

really, I just started an old-fashioned

48:46

blog again, and I've just started

48:48

scheduling posts on that. And it's

48:50

one of those things where I'm

48:52

like, I don't know, like everyone's

48:54

not going to come over to

48:56

the blog, but I'm really excited

48:58

about the people that do, because

49:01

those are the ones I'm going

49:03

to look forward to talking. to

49:05

the people who are coming over

49:07

to the block. And I think

49:09

it's okay to just shift and

49:11

change. I'm like, we might, we

49:13

might talk 10 years from now,

49:15

it might be totally different. And

49:17

I think I've just, as I

49:20

reflect on like, how long I

49:22

have been like a, an internet

49:24

infused artist, I'm like, it's changed

49:26

a lot. And let me just

49:28

focus on like. being authentic in

49:30

all of those changes. It's like,

49:32

it's like that's the best I

49:34

can do. And it's like if

49:36

something is not working the way

49:39

it used to, you're allowed to

49:41

name that and say, yeah, I'm

49:43

going to change this part or

49:45

I'm going to change all of

49:47

it. So, yeah. So one thing

49:49

that I, I've mentioned a bunch

49:51

of times on the show, but

49:53

it's something I think about probably

49:55

once a week, so and it's

49:58

always useful to remember. So I'll

50:00

say it again, but there's a

50:02

there's a part in one of

50:04

Austin Cleans books where he talks

50:06

about this punk band that can't

50:08

decide on influences because they just

50:10

can't agree. And so instead they

50:12

decide on what they hate and

50:14

they're not going to be. And

50:17

I love that. And then I

50:19

want to. And then I take

50:21

it. And the way I use

50:23

that idea in what I like

50:25

about it is that it hacks

50:27

our negativity bias. It's so we

50:29

our brains are naturally negative. So

50:31

it's actually easier to start with

50:33

what do I hate than it

50:36

is what do I love and

50:38

then reverse it and actually think

50:40

even in politics this is I

50:42

wish people more did more of

50:44

this where yeah tell me what

50:46

you're against or know what you're

50:48

against but don't stop there hack

50:50

your brain and say okay. What's

50:52

the reverse? What would this look?

50:55

Don't, this is one of the

50:57

things they talk about with like

50:59

climate change. What was so hard

51:01

about getting people on board with

51:03

it is that so much of

51:05

it was like, don't do this.

51:07

And it didn't present a vision

51:09

of the future. That was compelling.

51:11

Because it didn't, it took the

51:14

negative bias, but it didn't reverse

51:16

it. And so I love this

51:18

thing you're saying where. In order

51:20

to figure out what your creative

51:22

values are and live into them

51:24

and know what the reversal move

51:26

is, you have to know which

51:28

way is it which way is

51:30

the current going that you don't

51:33

like. What is it? Don't just

51:35

feel it, but identify it. I

51:37

love that you pinpointed. This is

51:39

where it went wrong for me

51:41

because again, it wasn't what everybody

51:43

assumed it would be. And so

51:45

that's a great like call to

51:47

adventure thing of. Yeah. Okay. So

51:49

you don't like where things are

51:52

going. But that's too general to

51:54

actually use as a prompt. In

51:56

order to know what the reversal

51:58

would be, you need to know

52:00

what is it that's going in

52:02

direction. Like, yeah, I love that.

52:04

Yes, and, and with stories, how

52:06

many good stories start with conflict?

52:08

Yes, present you. with a conflict.

52:11

A very clear, yeah, it's the

52:13

prompt. It's that tension point. So

52:15

it's like you're allowed to name

52:17

that. And I think that can

52:19

be hard for like artists because

52:21

I feel like, like you've mentioned

52:23

like all the tools and stuff,

52:25

the platform. It's there's like this

52:27

undertone of like. be grateful that

52:30

you get to share your work

52:32

in the space. So I think

52:34

you just kind of get used

52:36

to like, I feel like I

52:38

had that posture for a while,

52:40

like I'm so grateful that I

52:42

got to use Instagram to share

52:44

my art and I am grateful.

52:46

I am, I truly am. And

52:49

at the same time. Yes. Or

52:51

whatever. Yes. complaints and gratitude at

52:53

the same time. Absolutely. And there's

52:55

a conflict. There you go. There's

52:57

the beginning of a story. So

52:59

yes, I have been like welcoming

53:01

that and I'm like, yeah, I

53:03

can give you a long list.

53:05

Like those things, but I'm naming

53:08

it. I'm naming what they are

53:10

because I helps me figure out

53:12

where to go next. So yeah.

53:14

I love that. And I've had

53:16

a similar thing with with doing

53:18

sub stack, which feels like it's

53:20

a reversal into some different things.

53:22

blogging thing and creating community. So

53:24

I love that. The one question

53:27

I was going to ask you

53:29

that's a question that I think

53:31

about a lot, because I also

53:33

think it's kind of a seed

53:35

of a story where it's the

53:37

idea of like, what did you

53:39

get wrong? that you've changed your

53:41

mind about. So going back to

53:43

the start of your creative journey

53:46

could be like the very start,

53:48

including music, career and all that,

53:50

or it could be start of

53:52

Instagram. What is the biggest shift

53:54

that you've had and how you?

53:56

think about making creative work. Oh,

53:58

that's such a good question. Where

54:00

do I begin? So many. Yeah,

54:02

I look back and I'm like,

54:05

wow, what did, what were you

54:07

doing? What were you doing? I

54:09

got wrong in 10 years of

54:11

podcast. Yeah, oh, that's good. I've

54:13

changed, you know, opinion on that.

54:15

That's good. But yeah, yes. I

54:17

think it kind of, it kind

54:19

of gets into the, the, I

54:22

don't know what the word is,

54:24

but I kind of got at

54:26

it a little bit when I

54:28

was saying like, feeling like I

54:30

couldn't really say what bothered me

54:32

and feeling like as an artist,

54:34

and this is true in music

54:36

and in poetry and everything I've

54:38

done, like you need to be

54:41

grateful that you have the opportunity

54:43

and not allowing myself to like

54:45

advocate for myself. defend myself because

54:47

I'm like, I'm supposed to be

54:49

grateful. I'm supposed to be so

54:51

excited that I get to do

54:53

a project. But now I know

54:55

how to look at things and

54:57

say, oh, no, they're asking too

55:00

much. I'm not doing that. So

55:02

I, yeah, it might sound kind

55:04

of cliche, but but when I

55:06

think about like stress and strain

55:08

and like things I would tell

55:10

myself, like, I would, they're like,

55:12

you have three seconds to talk

55:14

to yourself 10 years ago, it'd

55:16

be like, hey, it's okay to

55:19

say no, you need to say

55:21

no more often. Like, you don't

55:23

have to just, just accept everything

55:25

because, and like on a personal

55:27

note, I think that was also

55:29

true, because I was a kid

55:31

who didn't have a lot of

55:33

friends growing up. So I had

55:35

to go, I have been through

55:38

this like friendships and stuff too,

55:40

where I felt like anybody. I

55:42

had to just take whatever friends

55:44

I could get because I didn't

55:46

have a lot of friends. So

55:48

I think I also brought that

55:50

into art as well. It was

55:52

like, well. You know that you

55:54

live in a world there artists

55:57

don't get paid where artists can't

55:59

do this So you better say

56:01

yes, and then I'm like wait

56:03

I got paid $50 to do

56:05

50 hours of work Yeah, it's

56:07

like that doesn't work either. So

56:09

you have to yeah advocate for

56:11

myself. That's been very hard. That's

56:13

hard for me. I I still

56:16

think I'm working on that but

56:18

I've gotten a lot better and

56:20

a lot bolder about it So

56:22

yeah, that's something that I would

56:24

that I would encourage people earlier

56:26

on like, yeah, you're allowed to

56:28

say like, oh, no, like, I

56:30

don't know if I like how

56:32

this contract is structured, like, you

56:35

might not be, you know, you

56:37

might not know all the lingo

56:39

and everything, but ask somebody who

56:41

does, like, you don't have to

56:43

just like, accept. growing up was

56:45

my dad is an accountant and

56:47

he I could see that he

56:49

was passionate about business in a

56:51

similar way that artists are about

56:54

art. And so I think I

56:56

realize like anybody that's doing what

56:58

they love or what they want

57:00

to do taps into that. It's

57:02

not just artists like he feels

57:04

lucky to do what he's doing.

57:06

purpose. He feels creative and expressed.

57:08

And so I think that I

57:10

just, I mean, I have the

57:13

same issues that you do with

57:15

that. I'm not saying I don't,

57:17

but I do think I, I

57:19

think I have this feeling of,

57:21

yeah, just because this is, in

57:23

a way, actually, because I love

57:25

this, and it gives me an

57:27

edge, not to be good at

57:29

it, to take it seriously. It's

57:32

why you're asking me to do

57:34

it. I don't need to be

57:36

selling myself short, actually. that would

57:38

be the ideal. Yes. And so

57:40

yeah, I love that notion. Yeah,

57:42

I had a, I think I

57:44

like that you use a accountant

57:46

example too because I feel like

57:48

something about accountants and like people

57:51

working those kind of spaces, they're

57:53

very clear about what they don't

57:55

do. Like if there's like a

57:57

certain kind of accounting they don't

57:59

do, they're like, oh, I don't

58:01

do that. Like, that's it. That's

58:03

all there is to it. And

58:05

I think that. For us, it

58:07

can be harder to name that,

58:10

but like I had a big

58:12

moment like that, I think maybe

58:14

like two years ago, where I

58:16

had to realize I was, I

58:18

went to the MoMA, or do

58:20

you say MoMA, is it? The

58:22

MoMA, or MoMA, I don't know,

58:24

never been before, but it was

58:26

really cool. And I walked out

58:29

of the moment after years of

58:31

wanting to make it, one, like,

58:33

taught modern art museums in the

58:35

world, in New York. I walked

58:37

out of there, and I was

58:39

like, oh, that's actually not an

58:41

envision of an envision of mine,

58:43

I was like, I've had that

58:45

on like a list of things

58:48

that oh, I guess I should

58:50

do that if I want to

58:52

have it. And I was like,

58:54

actually, I don't care. I was

58:56

like, that was great. But yeah,

58:58

I did not feel that way

59:00

when I walked in. I'm like,

59:02

I'm somebody who. I love to

59:04

teach and that might be the

59:07

total opposite approach of another artist.

59:09

But when I'm in like a

59:11

classroom setting and I'm teaching a

59:13

workshop, I'm like, oh yeah, this

59:15

is, I feel like I was

59:17

made for that. Like, I think

59:19

about like a 1992 version of

59:21

myself, like if I were this

59:23

person right now in 1992, what

59:26

would I be doing? And I

59:28

know I can see, I can

59:30

almost smell the room. I am

59:32

teaching a weekly workshop at a

59:34

local library on how to make

59:36

collage poetry art. That's what I'm

59:38

doing. That's what I'm doing. I'm

59:40

like, I'm not in our museum.

59:42

That's great. That's wonderful. Maybe I

59:45

go visit it sometimes. Maybe if

59:47

somebody approaches me and is like,

59:49

oh yeah, you really want to

59:51

do it. I'm like, sign me

59:53

up. That sounds great. That's not

59:55

what I'm pursuing. I'm around one

59:57

of the things that I talked

59:59

to my. high school daughter about

1:00:02

is if you're an intuitive person

1:00:04

you're going to be aware of what

1:00:06

the current is you know that's a

1:00:08

gift you're lucky to be aware of

1:00:10

that if you have that awareness but

1:00:12

it's also a curse because then

1:00:15

you have to decide what you're

1:00:17

going to do with that information

1:00:19

are you going to become something

1:00:22

you're not just because that's what

1:00:24

is cool or are you going to be

1:00:26

aware of what it is? tap into

1:00:28

it if it's interesting

1:00:30

and relevant to you or

1:00:32

reverse it if you if that's not

1:00:34

you and so I love that so

1:00:37

and also maybe as a another

1:00:39

practice that they that someone could

1:00:41

do that put like putting this

1:00:43

to work what did you say about

1:00:46

you could be there smell like what

1:00:48

the feeling is of like where you

1:00:50

would be yeah how could you talk

1:00:53

a little bit about that again yes

1:00:55

it was it was it was I

1:00:57

mean it sounds kind of sad to say it

1:00:59

this way but it was realizing all

1:01:02

the places I felt like I didn't

1:01:04

belong and not because of any

1:01:06

wrongdoing on anyone's part like I've

1:01:08

been in spaces and music and a

1:01:10

lot and it's great I'm like oh

1:01:12

these people they've got a cool thing going

1:01:14

this is great this is awesome but it's not

1:01:16

me like it's not I don't I don't sit

1:01:18

up and like oh I can't wait to come

1:01:21

back I'm like this is fun and I

1:01:23

started thinking about I'm like so yeah

1:01:25

it's not like I mentioned like live

1:01:27

music I love recording live music but

1:01:29

that's not something I feel like I

1:01:31

have to do often. I was like,

1:01:33

where do I just want to go?

1:01:35

And I keep wanting to go back

1:01:38

and back and back. And I'm like,

1:01:40

okay, it's not, it's not on stage.

1:01:42

I'm like, I'll do that. I will

1:01:44

be on stage. I'm like, it's not,

1:01:46

it's certainly not Instagram Live.

1:01:49

I'm like, I'll do, it's

1:01:51

certainly not Instagram Live. I'm

1:01:53

like, it's not posting on

1:01:55

Instagram. I do it because it's

1:01:57

there, but I'm like, it's not

1:01:59

that. I'm like, oh, it's the freaking

1:02:01

library. Yeah. I'm like, that's my

1:02:03

spot. That's my place. I'm like,

1:02:06

I want to go back to

1:02:08

the library. I was like, I

1:02:10

would just like be the lady

1:02:12

at the library. Like, do you

1:02:14

work here? No, I don't want

1:02:16

to scare all the time. So

1:02:18

yeah, it was a lot of

1:02:20

figuring out like where I didn't

1:02:22

feel like I belonged, even when

1:02:24

the place was nice, even when

1:02:26

it was. even if I spent

1:02:28

years there and I'm thinking about

1:02:30

it later I'm like you know

1:02:32

that was a great time I

1:02:34

learned a lot in that season

1:02:36

but where my where are the

1:02:38

places where I feel a little

1:02:40

just a little bit more free.

1:02:43

I have I love this as

1:02:45

a prompt because again I can't

1:02:47

help but conceptualize it through the

1:02:49

lens of like high school like

1:02:51

you have we're more away at

1:02:53

least maybe it's just me I

1:02:55

don't know I can't put this

1:02:57

on everybody but we're more aware

1:02:59

we're hyper aware you're hyper aware

1:03:01

you going in the lunch room

1:03:03

Which table are you supposed to

1:03:05

sit at like what is the

1:03:07

table where you're you're supposed to

1:03:09

want to sit there? Yes, right?

1:03:11

You know I had this experience

1:03:13

in high school where a few

1:03:15

years in I was sitting at

1:03:17

the cool table and then I

1:03:19

wasn't happy being there I didn't

1:03:22

I hated that table every conversation

1:03:24

they were talking about I was

1:03:26

like no I what did I

1:03:28

do why I hear and I

1:03:30

you know for the record I

1:03:32

probably just like you know I'm

1:03:34

not sure they were thrilled I

1:03:36

was there, okay? It's not, it

1:03:38

goes both ways maybe. But, but,

1:03:40

so we have this awareness of

1:03:42

the peer pressure, what, where you're

1:03:44

supposed to be as an artist,

1:03:46

and as a picture, just to,

1:03:48

you know, relate it so that

1:03:50

maybe people could see it from

1:03:52

different perspectives for themselves. For me,

1:03:54

as a picture book. there's like

1:03:56

the awards and the the spaces

1:03:58

where this is where you should

1:04:01

want to be you should want

1:04:03

to get a calicot look calicot

1:04:05

people if you're listening I'll take

1:04:07

one yeah I'm not saying I

1:04:09

won't but I also think like

1:04:11

you know I actually feel like

1:04:13

I'm I'm somewhere in between like

1:04:15

the really artsy picture book people

1:04:17

that I love and also the

1:04:19

really like mainstream stuff and it's

1:04:21

somewhere in between that's more like

1:04:23

maybe in the entertainment space right

1:04:25

and it's not the awards and

1:04:27

it and so anyway I just

1:04:29

think it's worth yeah just letting

1:04:31

on this as an artist because

1:04:33

where I unconsciously move towards the

1:04:35

cool table trying to I have

1:04:37

to feel like that's natural and

1:04:40

that it's worth being like, yeah,

1:04:42

but is that a place where

1:04:44

you would feel home or is

1:04:46

that just where you're supposed to

1:04:48

want to live? Yeah, yeah, I

1:04:50

think I like that you said

1:04:52

unconsciously because I think that it's

1:04:54

like you can't, it's hard to

1:04:56

ignore like this societal. thing completely.

1:04:58

It's like if you're making things

1:05:00

and you're trying to connect with

1:05:02

real people or real industries, it's

1:05:04

hard to just ignore them, you

1:05:06

know, completely. So yeah, I think

1:05:08

being aware of like, yeah, I

1:05:10

may have, I may have spent

1:05:12

time at that table. And now

1:05:14

that you've been at that table,

1:05:16

you can speak, you can speak

1:05:19

a lingo. Like you know the,

1:05:21

you know the jargon, like you

1:05:23

know how they talk, how they

1:05:25

engage like. And that could be

1:05:27

useful. That can be very useful.

1:05:29

And it's also useful when you

1:05:31

know your time is up or

1:05:33

when you want to expand. It's

1:05:35

like, yeah, let me go over

1:05:37

here. Another way this relates back

1:05:39

to this conversation or where creative

1:05:41

people might be right now is

1:05:43

an observation I've been playing with

1:05:45

on the show for a little

1:05:47

while is I think a lot

1:05:49

of visual artists, myself included. have

1:05:51

a grief around online spaces, especially

1:05:53

Instagram, because there was this, there

1:05:55

was a moment where the, the,

1:05:58

these worlds collided and Instagram was

1:06:00

both the visual art platform. and

1:06:02

the cool kid table. And so

1:06:04

what happens is when that's no

1:06:06

longer true, do you reinvent who

1:06:08

you are to stay at the

1:06:10

table? Or you accept like, I'd

1:06:12

actually rather be at other tables.

1:06:14

I'd rather be at the blog

1:06:16

table. You know what I mean?

1:06:18

That is really good. I'm so

1:06:20

glad you said that because I'm

1:06:22

like, oh, I think that's attention

1:06:24

I've been feeling right because I'm

1:06:26

like I'm not I'm not a

1:06:28

cool kid table person like I

1:06:30

I won't get into my horrible

1:06:32

high school stories. Let's just say

1:06:34

I shouldn't have been yeah. That

1:06:37

was a bad time only. Yeah,

1:06:39

I, yeah, I, well, I'll go

1:06:41

in and tell it is very

1:06:43

short. I was sitting at the

1:06:45

table by myself and these two

1:06:47

kids came to sit with me

1:06:49

and one of the girls, the

1:06:51

boy goes to sit down and

1:06:53

the girl puts her hand on

1:06:55

his shoulder and looks, looks me

1:06:57

dead in the eyes and says,

1:06:59

don't sit here, no one is

1:07:01

sitting here. Oh my God. I

1:07:03

was like, you didn't have to

1:07:05

look at me. So, so yeah,

1:07:07

I was not over there. I

1:07:09

was like, you could have just

1:07:11

left me alive. I was like,

1:07:14

I was fine by myself. Like,

1:07:16

you didn't have to do that.

1:07:18

Yeah, two months sat by myself

1:07:20

when I moved to that high

1:07:22

school. So that was where a

1:07:24

lot of motivation to get at

1:07:26

the cool table probably. Yeah. So

1:07:28

I'm just relating to, I know

1:07:30

the feeling. You know the feeling.

1:07:32

Yeah, it's, but I had not

1:07:34

thought about what you just said

1:07:36

about like how Instagram became both

1:07:38

of those things at the same

1:07:40

time, but it's like as the

1:07:42

platform is shifting, it's like. It's

1:07:44

like you kind of have to

1:07:46

decide where you're going to go.

1:07:48

And I think that's what I've

1:07:50

dealt with because I'm like, I

1:07:53

don't want to go that way.

1:07:55

Like I need my like kind

1:07:57

of weird kind of space to

1:07:59

really say what I'm trying to

1:08:01

say. So wow, yeah, I'm going

1:08:03

to remember that. same thing of

1:08:05

my junior year. I was like,

1:08:07

actually, the kids that work at

1:08:09

the cinema and the theater kids

1:08:11

at school, I get that they're

1:08:13

not what the high schoolers think

1:08:15

is cool. They're so much cooler

1:08:17

to me. They're so I love

1:08:19

these people. And I would rather

1:08:21

sit at a table where I'm

1:08:23

having the time of the life

1:08:25

and be where the society says

1:08:27

you should be. And I think

1:08:29

a lot of artists are having

1:08:32

to. Figure that out like absolutely

1:08:34

because he doesn't because also all

1:08:36

the just like you said like,

1:08:38

you know, going back to old

1:08:40

formats, going to different formats. There's

1:08:42

all these other industries and worlds

1:08:44

that exist that you don't have

1:08:46

to be in the hot place

1:08:48

at what time to, you know,

1:08:50

make it work for you. Yeah,

1:08:52

absolutely. Yeah. Massive

1:09:08

thanks to Morgan for coming back

1:09:10

to the show and hanging and

1:09:12

sharing so much insight. She has

1:09:14

just got so much depth and

1:09:16

is just such a profound and

1:09:18

also light human. that I just

1:09:21

love getting to spend time with.

1:09:23

So thanks Morgan for giving me

1:09:25

some of your time, giving the

1:09:27

listeners some of that time. I'm

1:09:29

back, like I said, I would

1:09:31

be with the Creative Call to

1:09:33

Adventure. Today, the CTA is the

1:09:35

five senses of belonging. And here's

1:09:38

what we're going to do. This

1:09:40

is inspired by what Morgan was

1:09:42

talking about, feeling like just imagining

1:09:44

a 90s library and just feeling

1:09:46

so at home. And I want

1:09:48

to think about this idea of

1:09:50

what table at school do you

1:09:53

belong in, not which is the

1:09:55

one you're supposed to be at.

1:09:57

Like, you know, I remember being

1:09:59

at the popular table and feeling

1:10:01

that. itch, the discomfort, it's what

1:10:03

I thought I wanted, but then

1:10:05

going and sitting with the theater

1:10:07

kids and the kids that loved

1:10:10

emo and getting into indie music

1:10:12

and all that and just feeling

1:10:14

like, oh, okay, I feel comfortable

1:10:16

here. That is a great feeling.

1:10:18

So today, here's what I did.

1:10:20

I just stopped and I said,

1:10:22

I'm gonna go through each sense

1:10:24

and just feel like, like, what

1:10:27

feels right right right right now?

1:10:29

And it kind of put me

1:10:31

in an interesting spot, because I

1:10:33

really push myself not to think

1:10:35

of where I'm at right now,

1:10:37

where my studio is, my illustration,

1:10:39

studio at home. Like I try

1:10:42

not to think about all that.

1:10:44

I just try to feel like

1:10:46

what would feel good? What would

1:10:48

feel right? And I started thinking

1:10:50

about smell and interesting, or instantly

1:10:52

I'm thinking coffee. And then I'm

1:10:54

thinking, what can I hear? And

1:10:56

I'm thinking some maybe like music.

1:10:59

that's a little bit different that

1:11:01

I don't even know what it

1:11:03

is. I'm thinking, what do I

1:11:05

see? And I'm thinking, oh, it's

1:11:07

like the feeling of like a

1:11:09

cool coffee shop. And I go

1:11:11

through each one of these and

1:11:14

I start realizing like, oh, maybe

1:11:16

what I would like to do

1:11:18

is start writing in a coffee

1:11:20

shop again. Like, it's been years

1:11:22

since I've tried that and I've

1:11:24

remembered like. Oh, I really like

1:11:26

the stimulation that comes from that,

1:11:28

this kind of weird, extroverted, introverted

1:11:31

space of being in public, but

1:11:33

having your own little space and

1:11:35

getting into a little writing zone.

1:11:37

And so it gave me a

1:11:39

little prompt of something different that

1:11:41

I could do that would maybe

1:11:43

shake up the stagnant or sense

1:11:46

of things not fitting, not feeling

1:11:48

right, that I've been experiencing recently.

1:11:50

And I also thought about last

1:11:52

week doing a talk and how

1:11:54

being on stage and the little

1:11:56

like dust of a stage under

1:11:58

your feet and the kind of

1:12:00

of tone and emotion and feedback,

1:12:03

verbal feedback that you get when

1:12:05

you're on stage, like what feels

1:12:07

right, what's the right tone. So

1:12:09

all of these senses started to

1:12:11

kind of tune me into something

1:12:13

beyond what my everyday experience is

1:12:15

right now, which is the key

1:12:18

because we're trying to see if

1:12:20

there's ways to shake up where

1:12:22

we're at right now. So that

1:12:24

is my challenge to you. Go

1:12:26

through your five senses and just

1:12:28

say, what sounds, not doable, not

1:12:30

what you already have, not what

1:12:32

already is an option, but just

1:12:35

what sounds attractive, what sounds where

1:12:37

you could just, oh, if you

1:12:39

were there, your shoulders would drop,

1:12:41

your mind might light up and

1:12:43

spark, what would be the sensory

1:12:45

experience? And then ask yourself, how

1:12:47

could you integrate that in a

1:12:50

small way this week? or this

1:12:52

month and creatively inject some newness

1:12:54

and novelty and exploration to see

1:12:56

if you can find. And it

1:12:58

might, you might go do that,

1:13:00

it might not be right, you

1:13:02

might have to do this a

1:13:04

few times, but if you're feeling

1:13:07

that chafing in your every day

1:13:09

of your creative practice, you might

1:13:11

need to shake it up and

1:13:13

I think this is a good

1:13:15

way to explore that. Again, thanks

1:13:17

Morgan for being on the show.

1:13:19

Thanks to Sophie Miller for being

1:13:21

a producer and editor on the

1:13:24

show. Thanks to Connor Jones for

1:13:26

video editing, audio editing, sound design.

1:13:28

Thanks to Yoni Wolf of the

1:13:30

band Y for our theme music

1:13:32

and soundtrack. And thanks to all

1:13:34

of you for listening until we

1:13:36

speak again. Stay peped up! Okay,

1:13:58

the podcast is So I don't

1:14:00

know why you're still listening. But

1:14:02

I am glad that you enjoyed

1:14:05

it enough to stick to the

1:14:07

end. I have one more thing

1:14:09

for you if you're in a

1:14:11

place where you're feeling a lack

1:14:14

of clarity and you want to

1:14:16

figure out your industry market and

1:14:18

niche and find the perfect strategic

1:14:20

side project to do next. Go.

1:14:23

Sign up to our newsletter at

1:14:25

AndyJ Pizza.substack.com and you will get

1:14:27

a confirmation email that will give

1:14:29

you the download of our Creative

1:14:31

Career Path hand booklet and the

1:14:34

whole process is in there and

1:14:36

you might also get a few

1:14:38

bonuses in there depending on when

1:14:40

you sign up. But again, thanks

1:14:43

for listening. Glad you enjoyed the

1:14:45

episode and stay peped up y'all.

1:14:47

I'm Shirley Ling, columnist at the

1:14:49

Boston Globe, and host of Say

1:14:52

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