0:06

Welcome to Creature feature production of I

0:08

Heart Radio. I'm your host of

0:10

Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I

0:13

studied psychology and evolutionary

0:15

biology, and today We've got a

0:17

very special show for you because I've got

0:19

a real life bat expert that

0:22

is a human expert on bats and

0:24

not a bat, who's an expert to talk

0:26

about some wonderful bat news.

0:29

The Hill's Horseshoe bat Rhino

0:31

Loafus hill I has been

0:34

feared extinct as neither hair

0:36

nor wing has been seen for forty

0:38

years. They exist only in

0:41

Rwanda and were critically endangered,

0:43

so their disappearing act was of great

0:46

concern. But after a

0:48

five year period of survey

0:50

efforts, in twenty nineteen,

0:52

Bat Conservation International and

0:54

the Rwanda Wildlife Conservation

0:57

Association spotted a

0:59

bat with an incredibly strange

1:01

looking face, one suspiciously

1:03

like the disappeared Hills's Horseshoe

1:06

bat, and after comparing it to

1:08

museum samples, it was confirmed

1:11

the bat that was feared gone forever is

1:13

still out there. So joining

1:15

me today to discuss this discovery,

1:18

to talk about who is this little bat

1:20

and why it's so important, and to

1:22

answer some of your questions about bats.

1:25

Is Dr Winifred Frick, chief

1:28

scientist of Bat Conservation

1:30

International. Welcome, Dr

1:32

Frick, thank you so much for joining me.

1:35

Oh my pleasure. I'm delighted to be here. So

1:38

I am so excited. This is such wonderful

1:40

news. We seem to hear all the time about

1:43

animals who are endangered or going

1:45

extinct, and it's so lovely to hear

1:47

about an animal that has been rediscovered.

1:52

Absolutely, and it was so incredible

1:54

to be part of that rediscovery for

1:57

for exactly that reason, to know that the

1:59

species is still on the planet, living

2:01

out its best life in the forests of Rwanda.

2:04

It's best weird faced life.

2:09

So yeah, let's get to know the subject

2:11

of the discovery. The hills is horseshoe

2:14

bats. So the hills is horseshoe

2:16

bat. Like many horseshoe bats,

2:19

is really striking looking. Its

2:21

face looks kind of like an

2:24

mc escher painting or

2:26

like an orchid. Why

2:28

why does it look like it has

2:30

a furry orchid face? And can you give

2:33

a little bit of a physical description of this

2:35

bat? Sure, the

2:37

horseshoe bats have this unusual flap

2:40

of skin on their faces. It's

2:42

really evolution of their their nose

2:45

and so they and they

2:47

have different sort of complicated sort of folds

2:49

and wrinkles, and so one of the ways

2:51

that you identify different horseshoe

2:53

bats is by looking at the sort

2:55

of the shape and size of some

2:58

of these different sort of folds and flaps.

3:00

So all horseshoe bats have a unique

3:02

face. And Hill's horseshoe bat, some

3:04

of those facial features are really exaggerated,

3:07

and so they're just

3:10

I described it as comical. Um,

3:13

they really do, um look pretty funny,

3:15

but it's it's all part of their

3:17

ability to use echolocation

3:20

for um, looking for insects out of

3:22

the night sky. That's really interesting.

3:24

So how do those folds help

3:26

enhance their echolocation? Well,

3:29

you know, they're using sound at night,

3:32

so they're emitting high frequency

3:34

sounds and and so they are

3:36

and then listening for the echoes back.

3:38

And horseshoe bats are what we call a constant

3:41

frequency bats, so they're putting

3:44

out a single pulse at a

3:46

at a constant frequency and then listening

3:48

for the echoes and actually use Doppler shift to

3:51

be able to do that. And so

3:53

yeah, I can't really say exactly

3:56

how all of the different integral

3:58

features of their faces help them do that,

4:00

because I personally have a hard

4:02

time imagining what the

4:05

sensory world of a bat would really

4:07

be like using sound to perceive its

4:09

environment. But I imagine

4:11

that they have a very rich ability

4:13

to uh to perceive their environment

4:15

that is quite different than ours. And you

4:17

know, there's this whole myth about that's being blind

4:20

and um, far from it, that's actually

4:22

can see fairly fairly well

4:24

as well. But then they have this whole other

4:26

amazing sensory adaptation

4:29

using sound. So it's you

4:31

know, no no surprise that their

4:34

their faces and their features would look different

4:36

and be highly specialized for

4:38

the way that they're experiencing their environment. That's

4:41

so interesting to me that they,

4:43

yeah, that they perceive the

4:45

world not just visually but through

4:48

sound, and somehow inside

4:50

their brain they are creating

4:52

a map of their surroundings

4:55

with the sound. It's it's so hard

4:58

to think about what it would be

5:00

like. They have these you know, large ears that

5:02

are like really sensitive to be able to you

5:05

know, hear the echoes back,

5:07

and if you think about the fact that they're

5:09

emitting really loud pulses of

5:12

sounds so that they could bounce back and

5:14

then determine where um

5:17

the objects are that the sounds bouncing back

5:19

from. They have really sensitive hearing,

5:21

and yet they're emitting really loud sounds too,

5:23

so they also have some really neat adaptations.

5:26

This is bats echolocating bats in general,

5:28

not just tells horseshoe bat, of having

5:30

really rapid acting muscles

5:32

in their earbones that can dislocate

5:35

at the moment that they emit sound and

5:37

then instantly come back um in place

5:39

so that they can listen for that. So there's

5:41

just so much that's

5:43

special about the anatomy and morphology

5:46

of these animals that is so cool.

5:48

So they can mute their ears

5:50

so they don't have to listen to their own

5:52

sound as they're emitting it, but then turn it back

5:54

on when they need to perceive that sounds.

5:57

I wish I had that skill because

6:00

as as a podcasters,

6:02

someone who has to edit my audio and listen

6:04

to my own voice, it's

6:06

it's torture. So I

6:10

yeah, yeah, I've read it conscribed as the fastest

6:12

acting mammalian muscle, So remember

6:15

where I read that. But that's one of my one

6:17

of my favorite go to guiz facts. About

6:19

bats. That's incredible. I didn't know that

6:22

and that is really fascinating. Speaking

6:25

of that bat sound, your

6:27

team also captured the first

6:29

recording of the

6:32

Hills Horseshoe bat and so

6:34

I'm gonna play that right now. So

6:45

it sounds to me it sounds like someone playing

6:48

like a penny whistle. It's a

6:50

it's a very it's a very sweet sound, very

6:52

cute sound. Well, and I should clarify

6:54

too, So that's their echolocation polls, but

6:57

slowed way down interesting

7:00

for hear it. So when the bat

7:02

is out foraging in the forest, um,

7:05

it's it's echocating around thirty

7:08

killer hurt, so well above the normal

7:10

range of human hearing um, so

7:12

we wouldn't be able to hear it at all. It'd be totally silent

7:14

to us. And then interestingly,

7:17

when my colleague Dr John Flanders first

7:19

slowed it down to play the clip, he

7:21

sent it to me all excited and

7:23

I couldn't hear it, and I said, there's a problem

7:25

with the file, And it

7:28

turns out that he just hadn't slowed it down enough

7:30

for my ears right. Actually,

7:33

hear much above ten killer hurts, where

7:35

some people can hear up as high as fifteen and

7:38

or even twenty, and so he just slowed down

7:40

even further so that that I'd be able to hear

7:42

it. Yeah, there are certain frequencies that only

7:44

younger ears can hear. So

7:47

if you're if you're like a kid and you want

7:50

to, uh pull a prank

7:52

on your parents, sometimes you can play a sound

7:54

that kids can hear and adults can't

7:56

hear. I've probably been to too

7:58

many concerts to be able to here

8:00

that that bat sound as well. So but

8:03

yeah, so that is that's really

8:05

interesting. So what do

8:07

we really know about the

8:10

Hills horseshoe bats behavior

8:12

because we haven't seen them in forty

8:14

years? Are they pretty reclusive

8:17

and hard to know much about or have we learned

8:20

anything about them? Yeah,

8:22

well there's still lots to learn what we know.

8:24

So there's only been two individuals

8:27

prior to our expedition

8:29

in January. There's only

8:31

ever been two individuals described,

8:34

one in nineteen sixty four and another one

8:37

and um. Both of those individuals

8:40

were observed in the Uinka

8:42

region of Nyangue National Park,

8:44

which is in southwestern Rwanda and

8:46

only eight kilometers apart. And

8:49

and that's exactly the same spot where

8:51

we found actually captured two individuals

8:54

on that trip. So from

8:56

best we can tell, this is

8:58

a very rare um ecs

9:00

with a very small geographic range

9:03

that's in the very heart of Niangua

9:06

National Park, basically essentially

9:08

in one watershed, and so

9:10

whether they had a larger

9:13

range historically, you know, unfortunately

9:16

Rwanda has experienced a

9:19

high rate of deforestation, especially

9:21

in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties. Nianguai

9:24

National Park now is protected

9:27

by Rwanda and is really one

9:29

of the sort of crown jewels of conservation

9:32

and in protection in Rwanda,

9:34

which takes its conservation and its wildlife

9:36

species protections very seriously.

9:39

But you know, it seems like this, I mean,

9:42

this is a Rwanda is called the Land of a Thousand

9:44

Hills and it's in this Albertine Rift

9:46

area of central Africa. So the forest

9:49

there is really old, meaning

9:51

that this part of the planet has had this

9:54

kind of forest for a very

9:56

long time, like it didn't experience a

9:58

change in habitat at during glacial

10:01

periods and things. And so what you

10:03

find in those kinds of situations is

10:06

really high rates of biodiversity and high

10:08

rates of endemism because the habitat

10:10

has been there a long time. So

10:13

what we think is that this species probably

10:15

has naturally had a small range. Maybe

10:18

it was large at one point, but it's lost part of that

10:20

range due to deforestation. And so

10:22

there's a small population hanging

10:24

on in the heart of this really beautiful

10:27

and protected afromontane

10:30

rainforest in Rwanda. And so

10:32

when you say that animals have a

10:34

high rate of endemism in these forests, that

10:36

means they are only found in

10:38

these really old forests. Why

10:41

why is it that, like when you have a really old

10:43

region that you tend to find

10:46

animals who are exclusive to that region

10:48

and found nowhere else. Yeah,

10:51

well so we so it's kind of a combination.

10:54

In that area, you have high biodiversity

10:56

beca the Alberteen Rift because the

10:59

forest is really old, but it's also a

11:01

very very mountainous landscape,

11:04

and so you've got lots of features that could end

11:06

up sort of allowing species to sort

11:08

of separate and Specie eight and so you end up

11:10

with and then that's surrounded by

11:12

habitats that maybe are different.

11:15

So throughout Africa and other

11:18

areas, you know, you we get what we call

11:20

like sky islands, where you get these mountain

11:22

habitats that are surrounded by a sea of lowland,

11:25

and that is also lends itself

11:27

to endemism, meaning that species occur

11:30

there and nowhere else. So on

11:32

another project, we're working on the

11:34

critically endangered LaMotte's round leaf fat

11:36

which is in the Nimba Mountains in West Africa,

11:39

and it only occurs in that mountain range

11:41

because that mountain range is isolated and surrounded

11:43

by a sea of lowland. That's so

11:46

incredible. I mean, it's it's both

11:48

really interesting and a little bit frightening

11:51

to me, this idea that we have species

11:53

that are very specialized found in a very

11:55

tiny range, and we

11:58

could lose them if we lose these habitats,

12:01

like if this, if this tiny

12:03

area where this hills his horseshoe

12:05

bat is ever threatened, we

12:07

would lose not just this bat,

12:09

but many other species that are probably

12:12

very highly specialized to this

12:15

one little region. That's

12:17

right, and that's why it's so incredible the commitment

12:20

that we see from Rwanda and the Rwanda

12:22

Development Board to protect the remaining

12:24

forests that's there. I mean, Younga

12:27

National Park is the largest

12:29

intact tract of Afromontine rainforest

12:32

left in central Africa. It's over a

12:34

thousand kilometers is protected. When

12:36

you drive from Keigali, which is the capital

12:39

city of Rwanda, down to the Young

12:41

Boy which is in the southwestern corner of the country.

12:43

It's a small country, but it takes a while

12:45

to get there, and it's really mountainous, and so

12:47

the whole drive, um,

12:49

it's incredible to see the mountainous

12:52

landscape, and most of that

12:55

is you know, covered in in agriculture

12:57

and in different kinds of crops, even up these

12:59

steep hills sites, it's really incredible. And

13:01

it is until you get to the

13:03

border of Young Way that you

13:05

get to this point where you can look out over

13:08

the hills and see the

13:10

landscape draped in this Aframontine

13:12

forest, and it's almost like that

13:14

you can just feel the kind of

13:16

the mountain sort of breathe. And

13:18

so it's an incredibly valuable

13:21

important area to protect

13:23

and and and and yet you know,

13:25

we don't know necessarily if other species

13:28

in some of the other areas we might

13:30

have already lost them, for instance,

13:32

you know, and I want to you know, I mean,

13:34

this is a problem the world over that so

13:36

much of our landscape has been converted

13:39

to agriculture to grow crops and feed

13:41

people, and of course that's super important, but

13:43

we obviously need to find ways to

13:45

also be able to do that and support biodiversity

13:48

right right, And in the problem with monocultures,

13:51

even if they are efficient in

13:53

terms of feeding people, is that when

13:55

you only have one kind of plant, one kind

13:57

of crop, that's really not conduced

14:00

of to supporting wildlife

14:02

that may be specialized

14:04

in feeding on a different kind of vegetation

14:07

or need some variety in their diet. Yeah.

14:09

And then in the in the um Younger

14:12

National Park has you know, many

14:14

other different species as well. I

14:16

think it's got the record for the most primate

14:18

species in Rwanda. Of course, Rwanda

14:21

is famous for their amazing

14:23

conservation of the guerrillas and those are up

14:25

in Volcanoes National Parks. And

14:27

the Young Bay doesn't have grillas, but it does have chimpanzees.

14:30

And I think there's thirteen different species of primates

14:32

in the park too, So lots of

14:35

um different animals called Youngwa home

14:37

and and and this bat has

14:39

a small population there. And

14:41

you know, we we initially thought

14:44

that there was a good chance that was roosting in

14:46

caves because lots of different rhino Loofu species

14:49

living caves um and so

14:51

we were working with the Young Way Park rangers

14:54

to identify the different caves

14:56

that might be in the park, and they did

14:58

and some incredible work before where we got there too,

15:01

on all of their patrols documenting

15:03

the location of different caves and whether they've seen

15:06

any sign of bats there. And so

15:08

a big part of our effort while we were there was

15:10

actually serving some of

15:12

those caves um and

15:14

we we found evidence of other species

15:16

and there other bats,

15:18

but not hill sworshoe bat, and as best

15:21

we can tell now, um,

15:23

it seems like it's probably a

15:25

tree roosting bats. So that

15:27

speaks even more to the importance of the forest.

15:29

Well even even bats that recent caves need for

15:31

us because they need places to forage.

15:34

I mean it is It is interesting because I think

15:36

people do have this concept that

15:39

all bats live in caves are

15:42

cave cave dollars, and indeed there are a lot of

15:44

species of bats that do live in

15:47

caves, but there are a lot of arboreal bats,

15:50

uh, And just like an incredible diversity

15:52

of bats that all have sort of their

15:54

own ecological niche that they

15:56

inhabit that's

15:59

right, about forty of bat

16:02

species roosting caves,

16:04

but trees are probably the most

16:06

important resource for bats around the

16:08

world. And we should remember too. You know,

16:10

there's um over four different

16:13

species of bats uh on planet

16:16

Earth Earth, and so when we talk about bats

16:18

sometimes people forget that there's just so

16:20

much diversity and there's lots of different

16:22

ways of making a bat living out there. Yeah,

16:24

it's one of the most diverse groups

16:27

of of mammals that I know,

16:29

I know of. It's it's just in terms

16:31

of their morphology

16:34

and how many different kinds of like

16:36

there are insectivores, their frugivores

16:39

nick dearivor is just it seems

16:42

like every sort of little

16:44

area where they could specialize in they

16:46

will do that. Yeah.

16:48

I mean flight does amazing things

16:50

for giving you the chance to being able to

16:53

get around the planet and also specialized

16:55

into different niches. Um. Yeah,

16:58

the only they're the second most of verse group

17:00

of mammals. So rodents have the

17:02

most species and then bats

17:04

are are in second place in terms of number

17:07

of species on the planet. That's really amazing.

17:10

So, I mean you don't have to convince me or

17:12

probably my listeners because

17:14

I love bats. My listeners love bats.

17:17

This is basically, even though we talk about all

17:19

sorts of animals, this is a bat fan club

17:21

here. But why is it so

17:24

important to keep track

17:26

of these rare species of bats

17:29

and maintain their populations?

17:31

Because because there are so many different species

17:34

of bats, what do we lose when

17:36

a particular species is endangered

17:39

or goes extinct. The loss of

17:41

a species is in

17:43

some ways just existential in terms

17:46

of UM what it means. I mean,

17:48

we know that we share the

17:50

planet with other other organisms,

17:53

and that UM, biodiversity

17:56

writ large is incredibly important.

17:59

UM. I think that over

18:02

and over again we've been able to quantify

18:04

and document the value of biodiversity

18:07

to humans. UM.

18:10

I like to talk about the values

18:12

that beyond what what species

18:14

do for us. Right. Bats

18:17

in general provide incredible

18:20

ecosystem services to humans

18:23

into the planet. Right, So they're

18:25

incredibly important consumers

18:28

of agricultural pests.

18:30

In terms of their insectivorous bats.

18:33

UM, that's that pollinate.

18:35

Uh. Nectivious bats are really important

18:38

pollinators for a variety of different

18:40

plants, some of which have commercial value

18:43

to human economies, but in also

18:45

are really important for maintaining rainforests.

18:48

Seat bats that eat fruit and disperse

18:51

seeds have been shown to have really important

18:53

value to rainforest regeneration.

18:56

They tend to like trees that are good pioneer

18:58

species like figs, and so they

19:01

fly along distances so they can drop seeds

19:03

places and um. So

19:05

there's there's a strong

19:07

body of work that shows um

19:10

and puts actual dollar amounts. It's been

19:12

estimated in the United States that insectivious

19:15

that's provide in

19:17

the billions of dollars to the

19:19

U S agricultural industry, and researchers

19:22

in Thailand of estimated

19:24

the value of common

19:27

fretail bat that lives there in terms

19:29

of the amount of predation that does

19:32

on rice pest and

19:34

and calculated the number of the increased

19:36

yield due to that predation

19:39

of that rice crop pest and UM.

19:42

I think even put it in terms of how many

19:44

bags of rice per year um

19:47

that that provides. Oftentimes,

19:49

when we talk about ecosystem services though

19:52

that that's being provided um

19:55

by that's that are highly abundant

19:58

and those are super important to text. And

20:00

so your question was

20:02

about the value of these rare bats.

20:05

So what is the value of this

20:07

rare species that's

20:09

living in the forest of

20:12

in one little area

20:14

of one forest in Rwanda.

20:18

Well, i'd say that it's

20:21

a part of that forest ecosystem.

20:24

It has, in my view,

20:26

a right to live there. It's

20:29

certainly, as we've seen from the

20:31

interest in this rediscovery, it

20:33

certainly has value in terms of

20:35

its ability to capture our attention

20:38

and fascination and

20:40

and and make us take a moment and think

20:43

about who we are and

20:46

what our role is in that

20:48

sense of awe and that sense of fascination

20:50

and that sense of respect. I

20:53

think it's hard to quantify, but

20:55

is real. I absolutely

20:58

agree, and I

21:00

I think it is. It is an important thing

21:02

because I do talk often

21:04

about like the importance of

21:06

animals to the world

21:08

into humans in terms of the sort

21:11

of this tapestry of interactions

21:14

that helps support the planet which

21:16

we live on, so we need. But

21:19

I think there is something that

21:21

is more philosophical about

21:24

preserving species and making

21:26

sure they're still out there. Bear survival

21:29

is great in terms of, you

21:31

know, the human experience, but we also

21:34

enjoy things like art, and even

21:36

if it doesn't necessarily like we can't quantify

21:39

what exactly art does for us, but I

21:41

think It's a similar thing with with

21:43

species, Like here's something that has

21:46

evolved over millions of years, and

21:48

here it is still alive, Like this live

21:51

it's it's a living, it's

21:53

all. It's kind of almost goes beyond art.

21:55

I don't know how else to describe it,

21:57

but it's this this living, intricate

22:00

work of natural beauty

22:02

and art, and it's

22:05

I think there's something like when you hear about

22:08

one of these species, like you said, being rediscovered,

22:11

it inspires so much hope because we

22:13

hear so much about the planet

22:16

dying in all of these issues, which

22:18

are very important to talk about, but

22:21

I think it is just as important to

22:23

talk about the animals that can

22:25

be saved and who are still out there,

22:28

and that you know there is there is hope

22:30

for animals and

22:33

for humans, because sometimes

22:35

with all of the doomsday news, I think

22:37

people sometimes get this sense like there's no point

22:40

in trying anymore, everything is doomed.

22:42

But that's really not true. We

22:45

have so much, so much ability

22:48

to preserve species

22:51

and to learn find discover things

22:53

that we thought maybe there was

22:55

no hope for, like the fact I mean

22:57

again, like that we didn't weren't able

22:59

to see these guys for forty years

23:02

and your team found them. It's it is

23:04

really inspiring. I

23:06

feel that way. I mean, it's hard

23:08

to describe the feeling

23:11

of of being there and

23:14

and the incredible sense of both privilege

23:17

and how humble to

23:19

realize that we had the

23:21

opportunity of a being able

23:23

to be there and that incredible

23:26

landscape, and and

23:28

have the opportunity to see

23:30

such a rare species, and

23:34

and also be there with our

23:36

with our with our colleagues from Rwanda,

23:38

and and Dr Paul Labala from Kenya,

23:41

and and Prince klaim A from the

23:43

Democratic Republic of Congo. And

23:45

I mean, we had this this team

23:48

of of people and

23:50

the sense of excitement

23:53

and connection, and so I

23:55

couldn't agree more that, you know,

23:58

hope is Hope is not lost.

24:01

Hope is essential to UM to what

24:03

we do UM. It is a there

24:05

is a real sort of weight

24:07

to the world right now, with climate change

24:10

and the bio diversity crisis and the

24:12

strife that we're witnessing around the

24:14

world. I think that there

24:17

are lots of reasons to hope, and that

24:19

one of the one of the one of the things that I've noticed

24:21

is that we can we can get into this sort

24:23

of paralysis of um

24:26

a feeling like the problems are just too big

24:28

to solve. And you know,

24:30

I've tried really hard to think through I

24:33

mean, part of my job at

24:35

that Conservation International is

24:37

to identify and prioritize

24:39

what are the sort of most important projects

24:42

for us to be working on, and and and

24:44

and you can have this moment of paralysis

24:46

of like, well, it's all important, and where do you start

24:48

and and so you really do

24:50

have to, you know, kind of roll

24:52

up your sleeves and say, I'm you know, we're gonna

24:55

go. We're gonna go. We're gonna do what

24:57

we can in the places where we've got

24:59

the best opportunity any to make a

25:01

difference. And and there's lots

25:03

of tools out there for us in terms

25:05

of conservation evidence, and

25:08

you know, prior to the conservation standards,

25:10

and lots of really smart people

25:12

on this planet are are working, you

25:14

know, really hard to find the ways to give

25:16

us the best chance of success to

25:19

do conservation. Well. At the end

25:21

of the day, you gotta get out there and you gotta do

25:23

the work, and you know, collaborate with people

25:25

and and and then when you have

25:27

those moments where that hard work pays

25:30

off and you're

25:32

standing in the forest and

25:34

you see a bat that looks

25:37

really weird and nobody has seen for

25:39

forty years. It is, you know,

25:41

it's it's nothing short of incredible.

25:44

And then you get to let it go again and it

25:47

flies back out into the forest and it doesn't

25:49

know that it's like super

25:52

rare and that nobody's seen

25:54

it for forty years. Like it's

25:56

just I've been doing its thing

25:59

and it and then so there's also

26:01

the sense of the responsibility of going

26:03

to make sure that it can continue to do that,

26:06

and and that it's got that watershed

26:08

and it's got that forest to keep living

26:10

out. It's it's best life. Like I said, it's

26:13

so wonderful. I will have pictures

26:15

of this bat in the show notes or

26:18

you can google the Hills his horseshoe bat.

26:20

And but its face is just it's

26:23

incredible, and there's

26:25

something I mean, there are

26:28

there are a lot of beautiful animals, but to

26:30

have because it has like these

26:32

these folds and flaps on its face.

26:34

And I assume that the horseshoe

26:36

name comes from these like horseshoe like

26:39

folds. Yeah, the horseshoe

26:42

shape to its nose. Yeah, that goes

26:44

down and like it looks like a chin

26:46

almost yeah, yeah, and it's

26:48

it's you just want to ask, like, do

26:50

you know you're so fascinating looking

26:53

or are you just you know, do you want do you understand

26:55

how like we're just captivated by

26:57

your face and the fact we haven't

27:00

seen you in forty years And but now it

27:02

probably flies off and goes

27:05

off to find another another bug to eat.

27:07

It's an insectivore, right, Yeah.

27:11

Yeah, We're gonna take a quick

27:13

break, but when we return, we

27:15

are going to talk more about bats

27:18

with Dr Frick. So we're

27:20

back, and I think we

27:22

are. We're amongst bat lovers

27:24

right now, probably people who are listening to

27:27

the show, I would imagine our ball lovers. But

27:29

a lot of people are somewhat

27:31

afraid of bats or are

27:34

worried about certain misconceptions

27:37

that they like. I think a lot of people

27:39

may have the misconception that most bats

27:41

are like vampire bats, despite the fact

27:43

that in fact, those are the least common

27:46

species of bats and are vastly outnumbered

27:48

by every other type of bat in the world.

27:51

Um, and they're so people

27:53

think, oh, a bat is going to try to bite

27:55

me or suck my blood. Um.

27:58

But there are also fears about bats

28:00

transmitting diseases like rabies.

28:03

Um, So what should

28:05

people who have a fear of bats know

28:07

about them? There's really no reason

28:10

to fear bats. They're um.

28:12

Most people won't have the

28:15

opportunity or pleasure to get to see

28:17

bats ever, which is almost a shame

28:19

because they're incredible. If

28:22

you get a chance to ever see a bat

28:24

up closed, you would quickly see that they have

28:26

You can google images on the internet, I guess,

28:28

um, and see their Their

28:31

faces sometimes look you know, unusual,

28:33

like our Hill's horseshoe bat. Um. And that's

28:36

due to their interesting adaptations

28:38

for their nocturnal lives. You

28:40

know. The flying foxes in particular, are

28:43

are pretty heart melting in terms

28:45

of um, you know, big eyes so they

28:47

don't go locate in you know, kind of standardly

28:49

cute faces. Videos

28:52

of flying foxes babies who are

28:54

in rescue eating grapes and

28:56

bananas, and it's it's the most

28:58

heart melting thing you can see. Yes,

29:01

I think that some people call them sky puppies. Um,

29:05

but you know, they're there's

29:07

really not much to fear

29:10

that, you know, bad bats have gotten a bad

29:12

rap for a variety of different associations.

29:15

I think, you know, things that are associated

29:17

with being nocturnal sometimes

29:20

you know, activate sort of different kinds

29:22

of fears, you know, and then you

29:24

know they're vampire bats obviously

29:27

are a very interesting Uh.

29:30

There's only I think there's three species

29:32

of vampire bats and the four hundred

29:34

and Um. They have amazing adaptations

29:36

because they are sanguinivorous, which

29:38

is the fancy word for they feed

29:40

on blood. Um. But they

29:42

don't suck. Actually, I have like shark

29:45

teeth and they make a little nick and then they lap up

29:47

the very surgical delicate

29:50

right. Um. And uh,

29:53

you know, at some point that got all conflated with

29:55

you know, um vampire mythology,

29:59

even though vampi our beats live in central

30:02

uh in South America, not anywhere

30:04

near Translbania in Europe.

30:06

But and then the other thing you know

30:08

to know is that you know, like a lot

30:11

of wild mammals, bats

30:13

can be a natural um

30:16

reservoir for rabies. They can carry

30:18

rabies virus, which you know is

30:22

deadly in humans. So if you had

30:24

the misfortune of you know, getting

30:27

bit bitten by a bat, you should definitely

30:29

go uh to

30:31

the hospital and get your post exposure

30:34

rabies vaccine because if you contract

30:37

the disease then it's it's

30:39

fatal, but there's you can get the

30:41

shots and it will boost your

30:43

immune system and you'll be

30:45

fine. So one of the reasons why bats

30:47

are so associated with rabies is that it's

30:50

the incidence of rabies and

30:52

that isn't necessarily that much higher than in

30:54

some other types of mammals

30:56

like raccoons or skunks. But the

31:00

chance that a person

31:02

in the in the public comes across

31:04

a bat might be if it's on the

31:06

ground outside their garage

31:09

or something, and the chance that there's something

31:11

wrong with that, that that that that is sick is

31:13

relatively high, because it wouldn't be there if

31:15

it was healthy. So somebody like me who's

31:18

out capturing bats in their

31:20

wild environments, you know, most

31:22

bats are healthy and fine. Everybody

31:24

who works with bats does have pre exposure

31:27

um shots for rabies, but

31:29

there's no reason to necessarily be

31:32

scared of them. So you

31:34

should know what the public health guidances

31:36

and if you know, you come in contact

31:38

with the bat, and it's best not to touch it with bare

31:40

hands, but to call an animal rescue.

31:43

But it's not like bats are out looking

31:46

to harm us. No,

31:48

No, I mean there's only and I think out

31:50

of the three vampires and that species,

31:53

there's only one who's ever been

31:55

even recorded having

31:58

eaten human blood. And it's

32:00

usually someone who's like near

32:03

because they're they're it's the hairy legged

32:05

beat and they're adorable by the way, the

32:07

cutest little faces. And

32:10

but there main source is

32:12

chickens. So if someone is you

32:15

know, lives on a chicken farm and is near

32:17

these chickens, it it may just be sort

32:19

of and not an accidental

32:22

but sort of an incidental thing

32:24

happening. And so it's so they really

32:26

don't they don't, but they don't hunt humans.

32:28

They don't seek out humans specifically. Yeah,

32:31

vampire bats don't hunt humans, and they

32:33

occur in central mex Mexico

32:35

down through South America. But yeah, it's

32:38

not. The perception of that is way

32:40

overblown from the reality.

32:43

So, yeah, the other vampires

32:45

are specialized on birds and and

32:47

and and most vampire bats feed on cattle

32:50

yum nowadays.

32:52

So yeah, yeah, and it's and they don't

32:54

even it's not necessarily even uh

32:57

too much of a threat to the

32:59

cattle other then you know a little

33:01

little cut they do on their ankles. But there could

33:03

it could be well, but they can't transmit they

33:06

can, yeah, they can transmit rabies.

33:08

It is actually there's some economic cost to

33:10

rabies transmission of livestock.

33:12

Um. That's a whole another another topic.

33:15

But um, you know, luckily we have

33:17

vaccines, and vaccines

33:19

are highly effective against rabies.

33:22

You know. Another another misperception

33:24

is that you know, bats will like fly into

33:26

your hair and all that kind of

33:29

silliness. You know. I think one of the things

33:31

that about bats is that you know, they're they're

33:33

flying at night, and they fly erratically. And

33:35

the reason why they fly erratically is

33:37

because they're really agile flyers

33:39

and they're looking for insects out of the night

33:41

sky and the um and

33:44

so when you see about sort of fluttering

33:46

and flipping around and looking like

33:48

it's, you know, doing some

33:50

crazy dance move, it's because

33:52

it's honing in on an insect

33:54

and then actually catching that insect with

33:57

it has a a a membrane

33:59

of in between its hind legs and it uses

34:01

it like a catcher's in net. Yeah,

34:04

and then and then it you know, um,

34:06

finds the insect with its mouth, so it does this like

34:08

you know, quick little duck where then you

34:11

know, get grabs the insect with its feet or its

34:13

tail membrane and then folds up and

34:15

grabs it. And and so that

34:17

will cause the bat to look like

34:19

it's flying sort of out of control.

34:22

And so if you were watching that and

34:24

and and you know that it's at dusk, and

34:26

you can't really see them very clearly,

34:28

and so I think some of that erratic flight

34:31

and um the fact that you can't quite

34:33

picture what it looks like might

34:36

play into some some

34:38

people feeling scared or something.

34:40

But if you take a moment and realize that there's no

34:43

it's not at all threatening to you, and

34:45

that they're you know, cleaning up all

34:48

the insects out of the sky around

34:50

you, then it's actually beautiful

34:53

to watch. And then the other thing is that sometimes

34:55

people will find um bats

34:57

like up in crevices on

35:00

the sides of houses or something, and

35:03

and so you know, I don't know, if

35:05

you know, if you can't see them clearly or something,

35:07

and they look kind of tucked up in there, um,

35:11

you know, there's no reason to be scared of them. But that's the other

35:13

way that people will kind of experience bats

35:16

maybe kind of like you're not expecting to see

35:19

them and you're kind of startled. Yeah,

35:22

but there's really no reason to be

35:24

scared. And they're they're really and the more

35:26

you learn about them, the more

35:29

fascinating in terms of just their

35:31

ability to like we're talking earlier,

35:34

like you sound, to perceive their landscape.

35:36

They're eating insects, um

35:39

and uh, provide you

35:41

know, lots of services and they're cute

35:44

and like yeah, and the you know, the nectar

35:46

feeding bats that like slurp up

35:48

nectar. They have you know, long tongues

35:51

and their important pollinators and

35:53

yeah, they're they're very cool. So

35:55

that actually leads me into some

35:57

of our listener questions, and

36:01

so Whitney asks, why

36:03

do some bats have smooth noses

36:06

and others little adorable

36:08

snouts? So bat faces,

36:11

like we've talked about, are really diverse.

36:14

I know that face shape

36:16

has to do with different dietary

36:18

and hunting methods depends

36:21

on whether the bat uses echolocation

36:24

or not. But it's it's interesting because

36:26

it seems like there's not sort of

36:28

one rule, like you only have a long

36:30

snout if you're a nectar nectarivore

36:33

um, or you only have a because

36:36

like it seems that there are bats who have short

36:39

faces who are frugivores and

36:42

also long faces that are frugivores.

36:44

So you'll have flying foxes who have relatively

36:46

long snouts that are frugivores.

36:48

But then you'll have leaf nose bats who also eat

36:50

fruit who have shorter faces.

36:54

So it seems that these face ships, sorry,

36:56

these face shapes are highly specialized.

36:59

So maybe a shorter faced

37:01

a shorter faced bat who is

37:04

a fruit eater maybe eats harder

37:06

fruit, so it has like more of

37:08

a mechanical advantage with its

37:10

jaw shape. Um. But uh,

37:13

and you know, like we

37:16

discussed with the Hills his horseshoe bat,

37:18

that incredible face helps

37:20

it in terms of echolocation.

37:23

So there are some bats that have pointed

37:26

faces or at least like a pointed kind of like

37:28

nose flat that may help direct

37:30

echolocation. And so

37:33

there are so many different factors that you

37:35

have with these bats in terms of both their their

37:37

diet, how they perceive the

37:39

world, in terms of whether they're using echolocation,

37:42

and very specifically, like what kinds

37:45

of foods in their diet they eat. Are they

37:47

eating hard fruit? Are they eating softer fruit?

37:49

Are they eating nectar? And so?

37:51

Uh, you know, but as a as a bad

37:54

ecologist, you must have seen like

37:56

so many different types of bat

37:58

faces, which I'm so astounded by,

38:01

like how many different faces

38:03

face shapes that they have. And

38:05

so in your experience, like is there is there an

38:07

easy answer to like the smoothed

38:10

face versus longer face? I

38:13

think you give a great answer. You're you're

38:15

totally spot on that it has

38:18

has everything to do with diet, and it has

38:20

a little bit and it well has everything to do with diet.

38:23

And also your family tree. So

38:26

in the neotropics,

38:28

so in central in the America's

38:31

there's one family of bats called

38:33

the philas Domada and they

38:36

are m the leaf nos bats,

38:38

and so they have this very characteristic

38:40

little you know, leaf knows

38:43

that has this little leaf flap of skin.

38:46

And so that's a trait of that whole

38:48

family. And then within that family,

38:51

um is where we actually see an amazing

38:54

adaptive radiation of diet

38:56

diversity in bats. So most

39:00

of um, most of

39:02

bats are in the ancestral

39:04

state of bats are insectivorous

39:06

UM and echo heating and so all

39:08

of the amazing diet diversity that

39:10

we think of is mostly contained in the

39:12

Philus domaday so not counting

39:15

the flying foxes and interopid

39:18

bats of the Old world. So

39:20

all the nectar feeding bats, the forgiverrous

39:22

bats, so much of the diet diversity

39:25

that we see is in that

39:27

Philus domad day family. So

39:29

the nectar feeding bats, the and

39:31

and forgiverous bats, even the

39:34

vampire bats are in that in that family

39:37

um. And there's also insectivorous

39:39

species in that family as well, and

39:41

so some of that you

39:43

know, the um

39:45

the nose leaf anyway is a characteristic of that

39:47

family. And then you also have

39:50

bats in the Old World in a different family.

39:52

Uh. So, like we're talking about the horseshoe bats, they

39:54

have different kinds of adaptations,

39:56

and that characteristic not horseshoe

40:00

aped uh nose feature

40:02

is at the family level. And

40:05

then the round leaf bats, which are in the Hippo

40:07

Sidera dae family um, also

40:09

have a very characteristic nose

40:11

leaf shape that is the charactress

40:13

of that family. So part of it is your you

40:15

know, your family tree and then and

40:18

then part of it is is your diet

40:20

uh. And and what you're eating. There's some great

40:23

colleagues of mine who actually study

40:25

the bite

40:27

force of different bat

40:29

species and looking at that bite force

40:32

relative to the kinds of foods that they eat.

40:34

So the things that you were talking

40:36

about in terms of, you know, the hardness of

40:38

the fruit and whether you're primarily

40:41

drinking nectar or kind of

40:43

doing both nectar and fruit or

40:46

just eating fruit, um, all

40:48

of those things will come into play in terms of

40:50

your face shape and face features. That's

40:54

that's really cool. I just I love that

40:56

they have. They express so much

40:58

personality through their faces, and it

41:00

really does. It is kind of an indicator

41:02

of these like very different, interesting

41:04

lives that they all need. And

41:07

of course the flying boxes that don't echolocate

41:09

have really big eyes. That makes sense. They're

41:11

not using sound to

41:13

to hunt hunt for prey or

41:16

find flowers. They're using both vision

41:19

and smell. So they also usually

41:21

have like larger noses because they're

41:23

using other senses and that's

41:25

what makes them sky puppies.

41:28

Yes, so friend of the show

41:30

Sean Baby on Twitter asks, my

41:33

kid and I love a video where Australian

41:35

bats dive bomb a crocodile infested

41:38

river to get their tummies wet so they can

41:40

suck the water out later. Are they

41:42

anomalies or do all bats drink

41:44

like total maniacs. So

41:48

one of the reasons that bats actually

41:50

dive bomb sources of water, whether

41:53

they're going to get their bellies wet

41:55

or to like take little SIPs

41:57

basically scoop up some water with their mouths,

42:00

is that they cannot stop and land

42:02

near water. Not only would it make

42:05

them a prime target for predators,

42:08

it is almost it's also very

42:10

difficult or impossible for most

42:12

species of bats to take off

42:14

directly from the ground. So most

42:17

bats typically will go into

42:19

flight by dropping down from a perch

42:22

and uh flying. They don't really

42:24

it's not like a bird where they often

42:26

will take off from the ground.

42:28

Now, there are notable exceptions

42:31

to that. I believe

42:33

some species of vampire

42:35

bats and certain insectivores

42:37

are able to kind of do

42:39

a running hop thing and get off

42:41

the ground and take off into flight.

42:44

But dr frick do you know, like

42:46

what is sort of the typical method for bats

42:49

to drink water? Yeah,

42:51

so most bats will drink on the what we call drinking

42:53

on the wing, and so they'll

42:56

fly down and they won't necessarily dip

42:58

their bellies, but they'll just app

43:00

at water as they as they fly. Most

43:02

bats need to drink free drink

43:05

water. Um. There are some like desert

43:07

adapted bats that can get water from

43:09

their diet but then don't

43:11

need access to standing water. But water

43:14

is really important for most bats. In

43:16

fact um, if you've ever worked in the desert

43:18

as a bat biologist, you just you know just

43:20

how important it is, because that's one of the best places

43:22

to catch bats is to um put up

43:24

your missnets over a water hole, and

43:26

that's will also be attracted to water to hunt

43:28

for insects too. That a lot of a lot

43:30

of insects emerge from

43:33

the water where they there's a larval stage

43:36

of the insect in the water, and then they'll

43:38

come to the surface and and basically

43:41

emerge in the flying form, will take

43:43

off, and bats are looking for those emergent

43:45

aquatic insects and we'll scoop

43:48

those up actually with their feet off

43:50

of like an osprey hunts for fish. And

43:53

so that's you may see bats

43:55

going over water,

43:58

and they may not necessarily just drinking.

44:00

They may also be foraging for insects. So

44:03

you're right that there are some species that can't

44:05

take off from the ground, but I wouldn't I'm

44:07

not sure i'd characterize that most species

44:09

can't take off from actually say that not

44:12

being able to take off from the ground is probably more of

44:14

the exception than the rule, and

44:16

and certainly some species are much better at

44:19

it than others. Vampire pats

44:21

are particularly good at sort of

44:23

hopping and levitating up off ground.

44:26

Palid bats that hunt scorpions on the ground

44:29

are also really good at taking

44:31

off. A lot of we look at

44:33

the foraging sort of strategies

44:35

of bats based off of their wing shapes,

44:37

and bats that have broad wings

44:40

are really maneuverable and they're

44:42

more likely to be able to kind of take off,

44:45

whereas bats with narrow wings

44:48

are more adapted for fast, high flying

44:51

things like the Mexican freetail bat or

44:53

other freetail bats, and they have a harder

44:55

time taken from the

44:58

um. But you're but you're asolutely right that

45:00

it it doesn't You've got the advantage

45:02

of flight. It doesn't make a lot of sense to land

45:04

and crawl up to the surface of the water. And

45:07

a lot of bats are already you know,

45:10

foraging for insects, and so

45:12

the ability to just take a

45:14

sip on the wing um is

45:16

a much better strategy and drink for the

45:18

road, or I to

45:21

like drink like maniacs, So I'm

45:24

going to use that. And

45:31

that was Dr Winnifred Cheap,

45:33

scientist of Bat Conservation

45:35

International. And that was the tail

45:38

of the rediscovered Hills's horseshoe

45:40

bat, once thought to be extinct,

45:43

but is in fact still flap

45:45

it around. So before we go,

45:47

we've got to play around of your favorite

45:49

animal podcast game, Guess

45:51

Who's squawking? Every week

45:54

I play a mystery animal sound and

45:56

you guess who's making that

45:59

sound. So last week's hint

46:01

is you may find these little dudes

46:03

boogieing to an imaginary beat, but

46:06

it's probably for the prey that lies

46:08

deep beneath their feet. Yes,

46:13

yes, yes,

46:17

can you guess who's squawking? Well, congratulations

46:21

to Joey P. Aussie and Trish

46:24

H who all correctly guessed

46:26

it was the sound of the American

46:28

woodcock. So the American woodcock

46:31

a k a. The timber doodle is

46:33

a small bird found in North America.

46:35

While it's technically a shore bird

46:37

related to sandpipers, woodcocks

46:40

live in forested areas with

46:42

a long, wedge shaped beak, brown

46:45

bark like plumage, and compact

46:47

egg shaped frame. It is a serious

46:50

cutie with a serious appetite

46:52

for worms. Woodcocks

46:54

rock back and forth as they hunt for

46:56

worms, which biologists speculate

46:59

maybe away for the birds to scare

47:01

the worms into moving, which makes

47:03

them easier to feel with their feet

47:05

and catch. The male

47:08

woodcock tries to woo females

47:10

with their distinctive peat sound

47:12

that they make during mating season.

47:15

They will also fly high up

47:17

into the sky and zoom

47:19

back down to earth in a serpentine

47:21

pattern to try to dazzle potential

47:24

mates with their death defying stunts.

47:27

As mating season tends to be in the spring,

47:30

if you live near forested habitats

47:33

in Atlantic Canada, the East

47:35

coast of the US, or in the Midwest,

47:37

you may just see a male

47:39

woodcock doing his sky dance.

47:42

So on to this week's mystery

47:45

animal sound. The hint

47:48

don't jump to conclusions with

47:50

this sound. M

47:55

M. Can

48:00

you guess who's making that sound? If

48:02

you think you know the answer, right

48:04

to me at creature feature Pod at

48:06

gmail dot com. I'm also

48:08

on Twitter at creature feet Pod. That's

48:11

f e f et that is

48:13

something very different, or at Katie

48:15

Golden, where I write M Katie

48:18

Thoughts. Thank you so much for listening.

48:20

If you're enjoying the show and you leave

48:22

a rating or review, I will

48:24

deeply appreciate it. I read all the

48:27

reviews and I love them and I cherish

48:29

them. And thanks so much

48:31

to the Space Classics for their super

48:34

awesome song Exo. Lumina Creature

48:36

features a production of I Heart Radio. For

48:38

more podcasts like the one you just

48:41

heard, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts,

48:43

or Hey Guess what where if you listen to your

48:45

favorite shows, See you next Wednesday.