4:00

is another close one, Edmonton Max.

4:02

There's Edmonton Institution for Women. There's

4:04

also an Indigenous Penitentiary

4:07

or healing lodge in

4:10

Masquiche's. And

4:14

it's interesting because, you know, people would

4:16

assume, I think, that, you know, if

4:18

you're accused of murder, you're going

4:21

to be in a totally different facility than

4:24

someone say for shoplifting. But

4:27

everyone kind of starts off, like

4:29

you said, at that first stop.

4:31

So does that present some challenges?

4:34

It can at times. You know, certainly

4:36

that's not unexpected. But

4:38

depending on the level of

4:42

the severity of the offense, there are also

4:45

classifications and categorizations within

4:47

a correctional facility that

4:49

speak to where they're going to be held.

4:52

They're within the same building, but

4:54

they will be classified as soon as they come

4:56

in. Anyone that's charged with a crime comes in

4:58

and is remanded

5:00

into custody. They will go through

5:02

a classification process to determine the

5:05

most appropriate location for them. So,

5:07

you know, there's an

5:10

entire process in the classification

5:12

system where you will determine

5:15

their risk to themselves, to

5:17

others, severity of offense, any

5:20

priors, any prior sex offenses,

5:22

anything like that. And

5:25

then they will make that determination. And so the

5:28

ones that are in for more serious offenses

5:30

will certainly be placed in a higher

5:33

security area. Sometimes

5:35

gang affiliation plays a big part in it

5:38

because although they may be suitable for one

5:40

area, they may not be able to reside

5:42

there because of incompatibilities with

5:44

gangs and other gangs and things

5:46

like that. And then the lower

5:48

level, you know,

5:51

thefts, common assault and things like

5:53

that will generally be in a more regular

5:56

unit. If somebody was touring through

5:58

a provincial, like I guess a

6:00

remand facility, you know, a

6:03

provincial correctional facility versus

6:05

a federal correctional, like a

6:07

prison. And I always refer

6:10

to jail as provincial and prison as federal,

6:12

I don't know if that's

6:14

how you refer to it, but if

6:16

somebody was touring through them, what differences

6:18

would they likely see? Between

6:22

a provincial and a federal system? That

6:26

really depends, I mean, in a remand center,

6:28

you're gonna see a heightened level of security

6:30

because of the nature of the

6:33

inmates there and the charges and things like that.

6:35

It's a higher security area. Since

6:38

provincial facilities can be anywhere

6:40

from minimum to medium security

6:43

facilities up to, you know,

6:45

maximum secure, classified

6:47

maximum security inmates. But

6:51

federally, they're there

6:53

for, to serve their

6:56

sentence as they are in the provincial

6:58

facilities, but there's just different

7:00

privileges and different programs and things

7:03

like that in those facilities, in

7:05

each provincially and federally based

7:07

on funding and all that other

7:09

stuff, right? So provincially, by

7:12

virtue of it being correctional services

7:14

in Alberta, that's funded by

7:17

the province and federal corrections is

7:20

funded by feds. It would seem

7:22

like the most challenging place would be the

7:24

remand center where you have all of those

7:26

people together. Historically, it

7:28

has been a much

7:30

more stressful environment not only for the

7:32

inmates, but for the staff as well,

7:34

because it's a time of great

7:38

uncertainty for anyone

7:40

that comes in there, any of the

7:42

inmates. They're wondering what's gonna happen to

7:44

them. They're wondering what's happening with their

7:47

family on the outside. They're, in some

7:49

cases, who's gonna look after their pets,

7:52

what's gonna happen to their property. And

7:55

they're also trying to figure out who's

7:59

gonna... represent them, who is going to

8:01

support them through this? And

8:04

how much time are they looking at if they're

8:06

found guilty? So it's very, very stressful. That uncertainty

8:09

is a real, it really weighs

8:11

on them. And so

8:14

it's, it's hard to manage sometimes,

8:16

depending on the nature of the crime and,

8:18

and all of that, it's hard on them.

8:20

And by extension, it's hard on the officers

8:22

because they have to

8:25

navigate the emotional

8:28

upheavals and ups and downs that

8:30

inmates will experience when they're going through this, they

8:32

come back from court and they're upset or they,

8:35

they, they're

8:37

frustrated or upset at the sentence that

8:39

they've got. And it's up to the

8:41

officers to navigate

8:44

that. It's not always easy. You

8:46

know, it's interesting, because I'm sure people who

8:48

are listening are thinking, well, I don't have

8:50

sympathy for what they're going through, because they're

8:52

accused of a crime. But some

8:55

of these crimes can be like an

8:57

unpaid ticket, like it not everybody is

8:59

in there for something very severe.

9:01

So this can create a lot of stress. Yeah,

9:04

I mean, it does boil down to circumstance,

9:09

you know, decisions that you make during those circumstances.

9:11

And, you know,

9:14

the common misperception is that everyone that comes

9:17

through the doors of a correctional institution or

9:19

a remand centre is a horrible person. And

9:21

that's not the case at all. I've

9:23

known people who I've gotten

9:26

to know as individuals completely outside

9:28

of corrections who told me years

9:31

later, well, I was in jail

9:33

once I did this and I did that doesn't change

9:35

how I think about them in

9:38

any way, shape or form. I never

9:40

dealt with them in our correctional facility or

9:42

anything. But they're they're sharing with me that

9:44

they, they had this

9:46

experience and they came through it on the

9:48

other side. So it's not

9:51

it doesn't by extension mean that every

9:53

single person that goes through the

9:55

doors of a jail are horrible people, but

9:58

they have they've broken. the

10:00

law. They are required to go

10:02

through the legal system to deal with

10:04

it and then deal

10:07

with the consequences, whatever they may be. And

10:10

I'm sure there's some very bad people also. We've

10:12

had, you know, multiple,

10:17

you know, mass, I wouldn't

10:19

say mass murder, but multiple homicide cases

10:22

where an individual is responsible for the death of

10:24

a number of people. So

10:27

yeah, there are some pretty awful people and

10:30

there's also those that have broken

10:33

the law, you know, in terms of sex offenses and things

10:35

like that. As people go,

10:37

that would be dealing with some of

10:39

the worst of the very worst. And, you

10:41

know, in talking about the start of your career,

10:43

I'd love to go back because you said you were 19 years

10:46

old. You were kind of just looking for

10:48

a job and you end up

10:51

in working for correctional services. Tell

10:53

me about that. Was that a culture shock? Sure.

10:56

It was an absolute culture shock because,

10:58

you know, I was raised and best

11:01

can be described as a really

11:04

good family, supportive, no

11:08

issues, nothing. I mean, it was as

11:10

normal a childhood as you could possibly

11:12

have and growing up. And all

11:14

of a sudden you're in this environment where you're

11:17

surrounded by individuals in jail

11:21

who have broken the law and who

11:23

have these circumstances where

11:26

it's substance abuse or they

11:28

have endured physical

11:30

or sexual or emotional abuse growing

11:32

up or their family circumstances certainly

11:34

weren't what mine was. They weren't as privileged

11:36

as, and I use that term, honestly,

11:39

I feel I was very privileged in

11:42

the childhood and the raising

11:44

I had, but not

11:47

everyone had that. Not everyone had

11:49

that. And so it was a real shock to see

11:51

that first person

11:53

in real time and to

11:55

have a better understanding. And in

11:58

a lot of respects, this career, raised

12:00

me into adulthood. I

12:03

learned so much over the years from

12:07

the work and from the

12:09

experiences and things like that, absolutely. Now

12:12

you said that you worked

12:14

in different levels within the provincial

12:18

correctional services, but I

12:21

would love it if you could walk me through what a

12:23

first day would be like for an inmate,

12:25

but in those different levels. So like if

12:27

you could take me through what it would

12:30

be like that first day

12:32

at the remand centre versus maybe

12:34

after they're sentenced and they go

12:36

to one of those other

12:38

facilities. First of

12:40

all, when they come in the

12:43

remand centre, they

12:45

are accompanied by a warrant

12:48

remanding them or holding them in custody for

12:50

fines or other things.

12:53

And so there are people

12:55

in sentence administration who will ensure

12:57

that all of those warrants are

12:59

valid and that they have legal

13:01

authority to hold them. Once

13:04

they're there, they are put through the

13:06

process where they are seen by healthcare,

13:09

seen by a nurse to ensure that

13:11

their medical needs, if any, are immediately

13:14

addressed, see if they're on any medications,

13:16

anything like that. They

13:18

will be asked a few

13:21

questions, some what we would call tombstone questions,

13:23

date of birth, where are you born,

13:25

what's your level of education, things like

13:27

that. And then they're processed

13:29

in terms of taking their personal

13:31

property from them, having it itemized and placed

13:34

in storage so

13:36

that it's ready for them whenever they are transferred

13:38

or released. And then

13:41

they are placed in inmate clothing

13:44

and then they are assigned

13:46

a unit. And once they're in

13:48

that unit, shortly after that, a classification

13:50

officer will come and see them and

13:53

ask them some more questions about

13:55

their background, their family history. The

13:57

questions differ somewhat, whether they are

13:59

a remade. or whether they're

14:01

a sentenced inmate once they become sentenced, or

14:04

if they're just in on fines or something like that.

14:07

And then they are placed in the

14:09

unit that they are best suited for, and

14:11

then they await their court date. So

14:13

by the time they get to the

14:15

remand center, I know they've already gone

14:17

through arrest processing with police, so they've

14:19

already been photographed, fingerprinted, but does that

14:21

happen again at the remand facility? Not

14:23

the fingerprinting, but there's a photograph that's

14:25

taken of them and all of their

14:27

information is entered into the correctional database.

14:30

So that, and then they are issued, if they don't already

14:32

have it, they're issued an

14:34

inmate number, and that's

14:36

their identifying number. Okay,

14:40

and so if they're sentenced and

14:42

it's first day at one

14:44

of the provincial correctional facilities,

14:47

what happens there? Because they've

14:49

kind of already gone through that. They know

14:51

what that's like, but what would first day

14:53

be like at the new facility once they're

14:55

serving their sentence? Once they're sentenced,

14:58

they are seen again to

15:00

determine the best place for them, and

15:03

then they are transferred. So all of their property, all

15:06

legal documents and everything accompany them to the new

15:09

correctional center. And they don't

15:11

necessarily, I mean, all the

15:13

information remains the same because it's already been

15:15

entered in the remand center. And if it's

15:18

a provincial correctional facility, that information is, it's

15:21

part of a database, so it follows them everywhere,

15:23

right? Including how much money they came into the

15:25

jail with what their property was, all of that

15:27

stuff. So once

15:30

they're sentenced, then the focus turns from

15:34

just managing their sentence to figuring

15:37

out what programs they

15:39

want to be in, what they're

15:42

eligible to be in, what they should be

15:44

in, and that's the case worker's job in

15:47

the sentenced facilities. And

15:49

so they, the provincial corrections

15:51

has a number of self-development,

15:56

self-improvement and vocational.

16:00

programs available to them so they can go to school,

16:03

they can take anger management classes, addiction

16:06

awareness classes and things like

16:08

that. And they are run

16:10

by incredibly dedicated people who

16:13

are very passionate about the work

16:15

that they do and giving them the

16:17

tools, giving the inmates the tools to

16:20

succeed once they get out. You

16:22

took me through what a typical day was like

16:24

for the inmates, the first day, first day in

16:27

those settings. But what was a typical day like

16:29

you? And I know that that changed over 36

16:31

years in your career, but

16:35

like at the beginning when you're working

16:37

in remand centers, like maybe take me

16:39

through what that was like for you

16:42

working. It was interesting for

16:44

sure, because my

16:47

experience working in a remand center was, you

16:50

worked everywhere, female remand centers

16:52

are co-eds. So I

16:54

shouldn't say, they

16:57

don't live in the same units together, but

16:59

there are both men and women

17:02

in the correctional facilities. So there's units for

17:04

women, there's units for men. So

17:06

they're separated. Yes, absolutely they are. Yeah,

17:09

and what happens if there would be

17:12

somebody who's transgender or

17:14

gender non-conforming? It's a

17:16

case by case basis and correctional

17:19

services does have a policy surrounding that.

17:22

And they

17:24

rely heavily on self-identification,

17:28

but also they rely on

17:30

professional opinion as well in terms of

17:33

where they are safest, where

17:36

they would be healthiest

17:38

and happiest. And that's

17:42

the best answer I can give to that in

17:45

terms of it's not an all encompassing, it's

17:48

either this or that. And

17:50

this isn't new. I know it's new

17:52

in the news now and it's kind of a

17:54

common talking point now, but I remember when I

17:56

started in Lethbridge in 1986, there

17:59

was a transgender. gender, male to female,

18:02

inmate there. Has correctional

18:05

services come a long way in,

18:08

you know, understanding how to deal

18:10

with that? I think

18:12

with any amount of

18:15

time and experience and

18:18

research and more knowledge, I

18:20

think that it's natural to have a little bit

18:22

of a change or evolution

18:25

of how you approach that.

18:29

You know, that scenario is such

18:31

like that. And so

18:33

I would say that there's probably been a bit. I

18:36

took you on a detour from my

18:38

original question, just asking you to take

18:40

me through that typical day in remand

18:42

for the officer. Correctional officers

18:45

have an incredibly challenging job. And

18:48

it's challenging whether you're in a remand or

18:50

a sentence facility. But in a remand facility,

18:53

there's the additional job

18:56

of making sure that they get to

18:58

see their lawyers, when the lawyers want to see

19:00

them, and making sure that they

19:04

are taking

19:06

care of medically. And

19:09

that's, of course, a health care responsibility. But

19:11

sometimes they don't come in the best shape,

19:13

whether they are going through withdrawals or

19:16

they're injured because of something that happened

19:18

to them in the community and things

19:20

like that. So there's always making sure,

19:22

getting them to their medical appointments or

19:24

seeing the doctor inside when

19:27

there's doctors rounds or seeing a

19:29

psychiatrist or just ensuring

19:31

that their immediate needs are met. And

19:35

that includes

19:37

things like meals. I mean, they

19:40

get meal time every single day. They get three

19:42

meals a day, other than the weekends when they

19:44

get brunch and dinner. And so

19:46

the officers have to make sure that they're fed and that

19:49

they get clean clothes on a

19:51

regular schedule and that they get

19:54

access to what is called canteens

19:56

so that they can buy things

19:59

from us. a

20:01

commissary, essentially, chips pop,

20:03

things like that, so

20:05

that they have some comforts

20:07

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20:49

sure everyone who's listening is wondering

20:51

because, you know, a lot of

20:53

people, their exposure to jail

20:55

would be by watching a show like

20:57

Orange is the New Black, or, you

20:59

know, whatever they're watching on TV. Like,

21:01

how close to reality are

21:04

those TV shows or

21:06

movies depicting time in custody? Well,

21:08

I mean, shows like Prison Break

21:10

and that, I mean, it's based,

21:13

you know, sensationalism sells. It's

21:16

rarely that exciting. You

21:20

often hear officers talk about, it's a

21:22

good job when it's nice and quiet,

21:25

and it's great, but when

21:27

it hits the fan, that's when your

21:30

training and the adrenaline and everything kicks

21:32

in and you better be on because

21:35

lives depend on it, including your own. And

21:38

so I've always been incredibly

21:40

proud of how well the officers

21:42

do in really stressful situations.

21:45

But does it necessarily

21:49

mirror what you see on TV? No. I

21:51

mean, Orange is the New Black was funny because

21:53

I used to work with female inmates as well.

21:56

And sometimes some of the personalities in there and

21:58

that you'd have a good giggle could

22:00

remember someone that was like that. But

22:02

is there like a hierarchy and, you know, or do

22:05

you see that person who comes in and they feel

22:07

like they got to prove themselves and get in a

22:09

fight to show that, you know, nobody

22:11

messes with them. I think people wonder if

22:13

that really happens. I think that there is,

22:16

well, I know that there is hierarchy in

22:18

jails. I mean, you know,

22:21

inmate populations, they do know who runs

22:23

the show. They figure that

22:25

out fairly quickly, whether that's someone

22:28

who has a gang affiliation,

22:30

whether that's someone who has

22:32

a lot of experience in corrections and everyone knows

22:34

them and knows not to mess with them, things

22:37

like that. Sure,

22:39

that exists. And it's also

22:41

the job of the officers and

22:44

the intelligence officers, the security intelligence

22:46

officers and security managers in the

22:48

jails to make sure that they know

22:50

who the players are in the

22:53

jail, to make sure

22:55

that the security and safety of

22:57

the inmates and the facility are maintained

22:59

at all times. If we know

23:01

that someone has come in with a very high

23:03

profile charge and

23:06

there's no publication ban, then

23:08

that person's name is going to be mentioned

23:10

in the news. And so officers

23:12

and classification staff and managers have to

23:15

keep that in mind to go, what

23:17

is the safest location for this person?

23:19

What's the safest place for this person

23:22

to reside and have

23:24

the lowest risk? It's

23:26

never a 0% risk, but it is our

23:28

job, or it's the job of corrections to

23:30

try and manage that risk as much as

23:32

possible. So that's where

23:34

the classification process comes in and you have

23:37

protective custody inmates and you have general population

23:39

inmates. And sometimes you will have people that

23:41

come in and say, I'm

23:43

absolutely fine in general population. I'm not

23:45

a sex offender. I just did this.

23:48

I'm going to be fine. And

23:52

we'll know from intelligence we

23:54

have or previous experience with

23:56

this inmate that we know

23:59

that they won't be. I

42:01

was always very active in sports, so sports

42:03

was a big part of it. So

42:06

in the summer I would golf and play

42:08

ball, softball and that,

42:10

and in the winter times, you

42:13

would play other sports, broom ball, indoor

42:15

sports, gym, things like that. Just

42:18

something to keep you sane and keep your body

42:21

well because

42:23

stress is not good for a body,

42:25

it really isn't. And I

42:27

certainly have experienced it over my career where

42:30

there have been physical manifestations with stress, like

42:32

not being able to keep food down, trying

42:34

to figure out why that is. And quite

42:37

literally I was under so much stress at one point

42:39

in my career where they ran through all these tests

42:41

trying to figure out why I,

42:44

you know, I couldn't

42:46

eat breakfast in the mornings. And

42:49

it turns out it was just simply stress. I

42:51

was on some meds to

42:53

calm my stomach down and we took a,

42:55

my partner and I took a five week

42:58

trip to Hawaii and within the first week,

43:00

I didn't need anything. And it

43:02

just provided that good reset. And so it was

43:04

a really good reminder for me to not, to

43:08

find, to make sure that I found

43:11

those ways to manage the stress in

43:13

better ways. This has been

43:16

an incredible conversation. I appreciate your time

43:18

so much. Thank you so much for,

43:21

you know, giving us this inside look

43:23

inside the correctional services

43:25

of Alberta and a career

43:27

spanning almost four decades. So

43:30

thank you. I really appreciate your time. Thanks

43:32

for having me. It's my pleasure. And

43:36

thank you for listening. I'll

43:38

be taking some time off in the next

43:41

little while. So this concludes season six of

43:43

Crime Beat. I'm looking forward

43:45

to coming back next season with many

43:47

new and important stories. Until

43:50

then, be sure to check out

43:52

other great podcasts from Curious Cast

43:54

and Global News. Crime

43:57

Beat is written and produced by me,

43:59

Nancy. with producer Dila

44:01

Velasquez. Audio editing and

44:04

sound design is by Rob Johnston.

44:06

Special thanks to photographer-editor Danny Lantella

44:08

for his work on this episode.

44:11

Thank you to Jesse Weisner, our

44:13

crime beat production assistant. And thanks

44:15

to Chris Bassett, the VP of

44:17

network content production and distribution and

44:20

editorial standards for Global News. I

44:23

would love to have you tell a

44:25

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can please consider rating and reviewing crime

44:30

beat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you

44:32

listen. You can find

44:34

me on Facebook at Nancy

44:36

Hicks crime beat and on

44:38

Instagram at Nancy.Hickst. That's H-I-X-T.

44:41

Thanks again for listening. Please join me

44:43

next time. On

44:51

a night cold enough to freeze your bones, a

44:55

prospector searching for a legendary cursed

44:57

gold mine vanishes without a trace.

45:00

I'm Crew Williams, the host of

45:02

Dead Man's Curse. This season, we

45:04

retrace the steps of fortune seekers

45:06

looking for a mother lode worth

45:08

billions who never came back. So

45:11

come join our quest. Search for and

45:13

follow Dead Man's Curse volcanic goal on

45:16

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music and

45:19

wherever you find your favorite podcasts.